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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Normally Podcast: The SCOTUS Landmark Ruling on Youth Gender Treatments
00:19:38
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Mary Kathryn Ham
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Mary Kathryn Ham
Use as directed. Hey guys, we are back on normally the show with normalish takes for when the new Gets weird. I am Mary Kathryn Ham.
- [02:53]
Carol Markowitz
And I'm Carol Markowitz. And I'm not sure is this the special episode or was the special episode yesterday?
- [02:58]
Mary Kathryn Ham
We're just doing a lot of special episodes is what's happening. Because it's summer, we cannot rest.
- [03:04]
Carol Markowitz
There's no rest allowed. But, yeah, this is our first time having three episodes in one week. It's been a big news week, and we felt like we couldn't just miss out on commenting on all of it. So here we are again. The U.S. supreme Court today upheld the Tennessee ban on youth. They call it gender affirming care. We know it as access to puberty blockers, hormone treatments, sometimes surgery. It's called the Scremetti ruling, and it came down today, so we felt like we had to talk about it.
- [03:38]
Mary Kathryn Ham
Yeah. And this is based on a 2023 law in Tennessee. It's called SB1, that banned this kind of treatment for transgender children and teens in the state of Tennessee. It stipulates that you can still use hormone therapy for people who have precocious puberty, who. People who have stalled out and have other forms of issues. The question before the court was basically like, does this violate the equal protection clause? And with a vote of 6 to 3, the justices decided that it does not. They said that it did not discriminate based on sex. They said that transgender was not a suspect or a semi suspect class. That would be. Those two things would make this law subject to higher levels of scrutiny. And so the interesting thing, part of the interesting thing to me, too, is that Roberts writing for the court, and to have Roberts just bat down each of these arguments, I think is fairly more powerful and more unexpected than coming from someone who you assumed would be on this side of it. So an interesting. An interesting win for normalcy, frankly.
- [04:57]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, normal wins today. You know, it doesn't win every day, but it won today. And it's nice to see it because, well, like we talk about on the show a lot, it's tough to find. And I think that this ruling really puts the Democrats into. Backs them into a corner that they are having trouble getting out of, which is their two main issues are extremely unpopular with the American public. The Washington Post tried to call this ruling on a polarizing issue that the Trump administration has seized on. And Matt Whitlock notes on X, it's actually not polarizing. The Washington Post's own polling found that overwhelming majority of Americans support banning sex change treatments and surgeries for children. The Supreme Court upheld Tennessee's right to take that Popular action.
- [05:49]
Mary Kathryn Ham
Wait. And do you know who actually seized upon it? The Biden. The Biden administration worked with the transgender teens to bring this to the Supreme Court. The whole reason it's at the Supreme Court is because the Biden administration was like, nah, y' all can't do this. They actually seized upon it. The Trump administration ended up in this position with it going to the Supreme Court.
- [06:12]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, absolutely. And so also, Matt Whitlock points out that the Post's own polling, and he said, he points out, you know, Waypo is obviously not a conservative pollster, found 68% support for banning access to puberty blockers for kids 10 to 14 and 58% for banning hormone treatments for kids 15 to 17. And this was in 2022, before this really blew up as an issue. Numbers have only gone up since.
- [06:39]
Mary Kathryn Ham
A couple of mainstream media headlines. Just to add to your collection, Breaking the Supreme. This is ap. The Supreme Court upholds a Tennessee ban on gender affirming care for transgender minors. In a quote. That's not, it's actually, it's not in quotes. This is just them in a huge setback for transgender rights. That's not a fair news headline at all. Another organization said it authorizes harm for many transgender people in the US Authorizes harm. They're just dealing with. They're dealing with the question of whether a Tennessee law violates federal law or their constitution. And they found that it doesn't either. That's it.
- [07:20]
Carol Markowitz
Right, Right.
- [07:23]
Mary Kathryn Ham
Can you imagine going back to yourself in 2012 and telling yourself in 2012 that in 2025, it would be a question put before the court whether a state has the power to say no, under 18, you're not allowed to have sex change surgery and hormones.
- [07:45]
Carol Markowitz
Can you imagine? I just think the world has lost their mind, actually. Not the world. Just us. Really, Just us. Most European countries completely ban, again, what people call gender affirming care for minors. And it's just, it's not acceptable in so different places. Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands all have policies about not allowing this kind of thing, like puberty blockers and hormone treatments. I believe Denmark recently joined that list. There's like, it is just. It's really only America. And I know I saw you get into it with the American Academy of Pediatrics today.
- [08:28]
Mary Kathryn Ham
Well, they're. Yeah. Their statement is, the American Academy of Pediatrics stands firmly with pediatricians and families making healthcare decisions together and free from political interference. We remain committed to advancing care that protects the health, safety and dignity of all children. And then in their tweet gender affirming care remains evidence based, medically necessary care that improves the health and well being of transgender youth. That's the part where they're tripping up on, okay, the American Academy of Pediatrics is determined to be untrustworthy in anything thorny or they refuse to be smart. They refuse to be nuanced, they refuse to look at changing evidence or evidence at all because they're interested in signaling first. And what Europe has done is followed the evidence, and they have found this is either not convincing or there's countervailing evidence that this is actually quite damaging to children. And so they have cut it out. The American Academy of Pediatrics is like, nah, this is evidence based. And the truth is that the data's not there. And when the data's there, it's either not convincing or it's the opposite. I mean, it's like, goes the opposite direction. So if they were following the evidence and if they were an evidence based organization, which we know from COVID that they decided not to be, they would come to different conclusions. And it is. I know, I'm not surprised, but it is discouraging to watch all of these institutions fail to be smart.
- [09:53]
Carol Markowitz
Right.
- [09:53]
Mary Kathryn Ham
This is your job.
- [09:54]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah. And the fact that they are such an outlier, like a lot of what we heard during, for example, Covid or in other times when conservatives are not the majority position, you hear this like, well, we all agree on this, so you must be wrong. In this case. They do not all agree on it, and they are pushing ahead with this anyway. One interesting note is that Justice Thomas had a footnote in the ruling where he points out that Chase Strangio, who was the. Is the co director of the American Civil Liberties Union, and he was the lawyer who brought this case to the Supreme Court on the side of wanting Tennessee to overturn their ban on hormone and other therapies. Thomas points out that Strangio had conceded that medical treatment actually did nothing to minimize the risk of suicide in kids who were having issues with their gender. So it's, you know, parents are lied to that if you don't enforce this, if you don't support this, your kid could kill themselves. Right. The whole thing was, you know, would you rather have a dead girl or a live bo? And it's wrong. And it's also just wrong on the facts because getting them hormone blockers and putting them on any kind of treatment as a child does not actually minimize the risk of suicide.
- [11:31]
Mary Kathryn Ham
And just the idea that that kind of advice from a medical professional is just a wholly emotional blackmail has nothing to do with the condition of your child, has nothing to do with the evidence. We now know it's horribly abusive for a provider to talk to parents that way. It's coercive. It's nasty. It's just like it's witch doctor stuff. You should not be doing that with your patients. You should be having rational conversations with them about cost benefit analyses. But again, as we learned during COVID a lot of people, as we learned during COVID capable of doing that. I do think one of the downsides for the ACLU and transgender activists and those who align with them about this case is that it brought forward exactly that. Strangio and the ACLU's arguments and the data are weak. They're still weak. And that was brought to the fore because the Biden administration and Strangio and the ACLU and all their fellow travelers decided, we got to go to the Supreme Court on this. And what they may have ended up doing is putting down a lot of precedent that they didn't intend to put down, and they may have put out a lot of info that gets a lot more attention than they want it to be getting.
- [12:52]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, this is, again, going back to the political ramifications of it. It's baffling to me that this is what the Democrats have decided is their key issue, and it's so unpopular with the American people. Look, I, we've said it on the show before. Do we think Democrats are never going to win again? Of course not. Of course not. You know, there's two political parties in America. One of them wins some of the time, the other one wins the other some of the time. And it's, I, you know, there's no part of me that thinks, oh, the Democrats are out of the, out of the ball game. But the fact is that it's June 2025, and their two top issues are making sure that boys can play in girls sports and that girl kids and teens can get, you know, hormone blockers and potentially surgery. And their second issue is protecting the rights of illegal immigrants who are in the country without, you know, having gotten permission to be here. And that is the two things that they seem to care about the most. And it is just, again, I'm sure they'll win again someday, but very, very hard to see that right now.
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Mary Kathryn Ham
I don't get it. Again, this is why I just think they're. They're unable to make a turn. They're unable to pivot. I think they were un to see that Strangio's arguments weren't great. I listened to the oral arguments and was unimpressed. The briefs had all sorts of bad information in them for that side of the case. And Justice Thomas noted in his concurrence today, he said states are never required to substitute expert opinion for their legislative judgment. And when the experts appear to have compromised their credibility, it makes good sense to chart a different course. Courts should not assume that self described experts are correct. Again, can we say to those in the back, as we Learned during COVID.
- [14:48]
Carol Markowitz
I feel like we should write a book called as We Learned During COVID.
- [14:52]
Mary Kathryn Ham
Like, you can't the aap, the people telling you this stuff, even your own provider, sometimes they are incorrect. Their data's not there. They're sometimes not familiar with the data and pretend to be. And it's so this is like a real blow for sanity. And it's funny, I was actually at a, I think I remember vaguely, it was a children's birthday party in about 2012. And like, my friends and I had just started having kids. This is like a one year old's birthday party. And I was standing around with a couple of fellow politicos and the transgender thing had sort of just started to become part of the conversation. And we can decide whether to bleep this or not. But I said, you know, I gotta say, if Democrats decide that penis and vagina are just not a thing anymore and they mean nothing, I don't think that will go well for them.
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Carol Markowitz
Good call.
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Mary Kathryn Ham
And it took many years for that prophecy to come true. But I, that was the discussion of the date. But we were far away from the children when I said this.
- [16:00]
Carol Markowitz
Right? It's okay to curse sometimes.
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Mary Kathryn Ham
They were one. Okay. They were like, clear of my influence at this point.
- [16:08]
Carol Markowitz
I have to say that I used to be. Again, I may have mentioned this before, but I used to consider myself somebody that would be considered pro trans. I used all the pronouns that people would want to use. It really was them coming for the children that shook me out of it. I, I, I. And I know like the path that I took to get here, I, I know that like things got crazier and crazier and crazier. I, I, I wrote about it this at one point that I was banned from a, a liberal site I used to comment on because I said that trans people have to disclose it. And that became something unacceptable to say. And as they kept pushing the envelope, they lost people like me who would generally be on the side of let people do whatever they Want and let them live how they want. But coming for the kids, that was the dividing line for me. For many Americans we could look back to a few years ago and this was not an issue at all until it started coming for the kids.
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Mary Kathryn Ham
Yeah, my two breaking points, because at that particular time it wasn't really at the forefront of political issues. It had just become something that lefty activists were discussing and so politicos were interested in that. And I was like, I just don't think this is going to turn out well. I'm not sure the median voter is there with them on this, but yeah, I think I would have been of a more libertarian bent until the policing of language and the kid stuff.
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Carol Markowitz
Right.
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Mary Kathryn Ham
And I believe in our in guys. In my book, end of discussion 2015, shortly after this has sort of become a national issue. Yes, it's still applicable, unfortunately. But in end of discussion we noted that when it comes to trans issues, which is a particularly speech policed area with a lot of people willing to get you fired for saying the wrong thing, at one point, some coalition of trans allies and groups posted, I believe, a monthly, if not weekly update of language that was okay to use. And we used that to say, hey, this just seems like a no win situation. If we're going to go down this path, we can't do monthly updates to everybody's acceptable language on these issues. And so those two things combined certainly gave me pause and I think have given many, many, many people pause.
- [18:30]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, that's definitely a big part of it. Also, teachers getting in trouble for not using the pronoun that the teenager made up this week is clearly a huge issue. Things like that just drove people away from, you know, what would have been a non issue not that long ago. I also like to say, you know, I love that movie the Crying Game. And when the Crying Game came out, that movie was seen as a very, very pro trans movie. A guy falls in love with a trans woman and tries to overlook it, but it's really hard. And, but he ultimately is in love with this woman who was once a man and that was seen as very, very pro trans. That movie would be anti trans today. Oh yeah, he refers to her as a man. He says, you know, she says I'm just a girl. And he says, but you're not a girl. And you know, things like that would be completely not allowed now. And they, you know, they drove people away and that's just the reality of it. We'll be right back on. Normally.
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- [24:06]
Mary Kathryn Ham
We do have one more bit of news just to lighten the mood here which is that Trump has installed at least one. I don't know if he's done both of them, but a 100 foot flagpole with a giant, a giant American flag on it on the White House lawn. It is huge. It's like.
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Carol Markowitz
Is it like Texas size huge?
- [24:29]
Mary Kathryn Ham
I mean it is both. It's, it's like car dealership on a Texas highway level.
- [24:39]
Carol Markowitz
That's what it should be. You know I, when I get to Texas and I see those car dealerships with their American flag, I'm like this is what living is all about. Like this is what it's supposed to be like?
- [24:49]
Mary Kathryn Ham
Yeah, it's, it looks like that. And I look, the guy's into construction, which is good because this is a very tall flagpole. So he's assured us of all the specs on this thing. I do enjoy that the next Democratic president is going to have to be like, I can't. Even if I have aesthetic issues with the gigantic nature of the. You can't do anything about it. Like, it's just, it's there forever, right?
- [25:18]
Carol Markowitz
Forever and ever. Oh, I'm so, I can't wait to go see it. I didn't realize that the flag was Texas size.
- [25:23]
Mary Kathryn Ham
I mean, it's, it looks very large in the, in the photos.
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Carol Markowitz
I heard the second one is coming, right? There's going to be two of them.
- [25:29]
Mary Kathryn Ham
All together and now they have like a two. Don't they have a, a partu hole out there on the. Do they lawn as well? Yeah. Bryson Duchambeau, the, the professional golfer was like golfing out on the White House lawn.
- [25:41]
Carol Markowitz
Incredible.
- [25:42]
Mary Kathryn Ham
Trump is yoloing with the designs at the White House this time.
- [25:46]
Carol Markowitz
I have, you know, we have our ups and downs, Donald Trump and I. This has been a very up week for our relationship. I have been super into Donald Trump this week. I think, you know, on Iran, he is one of the clearest voices ever. I just, it's unbelievable to watch him in action. Sees everything so clearly in a way that I, I just, even other Republicans, I don't think see it quite like he does. And I've just been, I'm in a good place with, with the Donald. He and I besties right now.
- [26:18]
Mary Kathryn Ham
A good, a good week for the Donald. So.
- [26:21]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [26:22]
Mary Kathryn Ham
And a good week for us here at Normal. We cover a lot of stuff.
- [26:26]
Carol Markowitz
I mean, you know, I don't know, we can't prom episodes always, but we'll, we'll do our best. Right.
- [26:32]
Mary Kathryn Ham
We felt like this one was important.
- [26:33]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, it was important, so. Well, thanks for joining us on Normally. Normally Allegedly airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.
- [26:56]
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Carol Markowitz
Cleans like Clorox and feels like, hmm.
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Mary Kathryn Ham
Alright, that could go on for a while.
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Mary Kathryn Ham
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