Normally Podcast: Trump, Education, and the Decline of Community

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Normally Podcast: Trump, Education, and the Decline of Community
Release Date: November 13, 2025
Hosts: Mary Katherine Ham & Carol Markowitz

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Episode Overview

This episode, featuring Mary Katherine Ham and Carol Markowitz, focuses on three major themes:

1. Recent controversies and inconsistencies regarding Donald Trump—especially on immigration policy and connections to Jeffrey Epstein.
2. The crisis in American education, with a particular emphasis on declining math skills and the consequences of grade inflation and low standards.
3. The concept and challenges of building community—or a "village"—to support parents and families in modern America.

The hosts approach these topics with a conversational mix of concern, skepticism, humor, and personal anecdote.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump, Immigration, and Inconsistency (05:01–14:45)

• The hosts address Donald Trump’s interview with Laura Ingraham, where he gave contradictory remarks about skilled immigration (H1B visas), causing confusion about his actual stance.

  • Trump’s conflicting message: While known for hardline rhetoric on illegal immigration, he seems to support bringing in large numbers of foreign workers for specialized jobs, which clashes with his populist messaging.
  • Cringeworthy moments: Trump claims “we don’t have talented people” domestically, which the hosts call out as “extremely cringy” and poorly worded.
  • Both agree the message should focus on strengthening domestic skills and carefully managing skilled immigration, rather than shushing economic anxieties.

• Systemic issues with H1B visas:

  • Widespread abuse and a need for genuine reform—“There are so many articles and so many people speaking out about H1B abuses… it cannot continue the way it is.” (Carol, 08:47)
  • Consistency in messaging: Trump’s administration previously targeted the very workers he now claims the U.S. needs, leading to administrative contradictions.

Notable Quotes

• Mary Katherine: “If you sort of shush people about their very real concerns about their livelihoods… you will get in trouble no matter what party you are in.” (08:05)
• Carol: “This is who he's been. And you and I were calling him out in so many different ways...Like, bro, it was no staffer. This was Donald Trump being Donald Trump.” (10:27)

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2. Epstein Emails and Media Reliability (14:45–19:53)

• Media frenzy over new Trump-Epstein emails:

  • The "newly released" emails don’t support the sensational headlines—emails mainly show political strategizing by Michael Wolff and Jeffrey Epstein, not direct involvement or wrongdoing by Trump.

• Critical media analysis:

  • The hosts highlight a familiar pattern: breathless accusations that fizzle under scrutiny, contributing to persistent mistrust.
  • Mary Katherine: “One of the costs of having everyone lied systematically about Donald Trump… is that I do have to evaluate all these quite closely.” (15:23)

• Discussion includes Brian Stelter's criticism of Fox News for not covering the story, which the hosts dismiss as agenda-driven coverage.

Notable Quotes

• Carol: “Anybody reading this and telling me this is some kind of smoking gun didn’t read this. That’s just what I have to come up with here.” (15:23–16:37)
• Mary Katherine: “Do you want justice for the victims, or do you want to get Donald Trump?” (17:30)

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3. The Education Crisis: Skills Decline and Systemic Failures (24:31–32:09)

• Startling data:

  • New reports reveal a surge in UC San Diego students needing remedial math—from 1 in 100 to 1 in 8.
  • 25% of a tested cohort of incoming college students missed a basic algebra problem (“7 + 2 = ___ + 6”), and some did not test at even a first-grade math level.

• Causes & consequences:

  • Pandemic learning loss only explains a fraction—the hosts highlight decades of grade inflation, lower standards, and the prioritization of social or ideological curricula over basics.
  • The weakening of proficiency standards and a refusal to raise expectations hides rather than solves educational deficits.
  • Link to broader issues: Weakening education feeds into debates over skilled immigration, as a less-prepared domestic workforce may increase dependence on imported talent.

• Personal context:

  • Both hosts share their own (and their children’s) struggles with math, emphasizing the value of effort and the dangers of over-inflated grades.
  • Concerns raised over public school boards resisting higher standards to present a façade of success.

Notable Quotes

• Mary Katherine: “If you paper it over with fake grades, you will not learn things.” (27:29)
• Carol: “Every minute that they spend on land acknowledgments and, you know, pretending that boys can become girls and vice versa is a minute that they’re not spending on math and reading.” (28:26)
• Mary Katherine: “My local school board... had a full debate about how raising these expectations is bad. Because what they want to do is have the expectations lower and pretend like they’re succeeding.” (29:14–30:43)

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4. “It Takes a Village”—Community and Parenting in Modern Times (36:42–44:56)

• The Atlantic article critiqued:

  • “It takes a village” is seen as unhelpful for mothers who are isolated from the extended family or community support structures of the past.
  • Most parents can’t simply conjure up a village: changes in social structures, job demands, and geographic dispersion make building a support network difficult.

• Personal experiences:

  • Carol reminisces about having a family "village" in Brooklyn, with multiple relatives participating in childcare, but notes the trade-offs (“When my mother would give them Swedish Fish… I could say ‘please don't do that,’ and she could wave her hand at me like ‘I'm going to do that anyway.’” (38:29))

• Building vs. buying a village:

  • Some parents substitute hired help or services (nannies, Instacart) for family/community support, but this isn’t possible for everyone.

• Advice & reflection:

  • You must invest in and contribute to the community (“If you’re not depositing in the bank, you really can’t withdraw.” — Mary Katherine, 42:04)
  • Military spouses and immigrants often become skilled at intentionally creating support networks, an approach worth emulating.

Notable Quotes

• Carol: “You have to participate in the village. You can't just be like, all right guys, I need childcare—who's in?” (42:07)
• Mary Katherine: “If you’re not depositing in the bank, you really can’t withdraw.” (42:04)
• Mary Katherine: “Push your way past the social boundaries and just do the thing.” (44:07)
• Carol: “Build the village. It's difficult… but you have to bend to get all these things that you hear about.” (43:34–43:48)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Holiday banter & start of main topics: 03:09–05:01
• Trump & immigration controversies: 05:01–14:45
• Trump-Epstein emails & media discussion: 14:45–19:53
• Media trust & editing scandals: 18:13–20:03
• Education crisis begins: 24:31–32:09
• Community, "village," and parenting: 36:42–44:56

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Memorable Moments

• Cringiest Trump quote:
  • “No, you don’t. We don’t have talented people. No, you don’t have, you don’t have certain talents…” (Trump, 06:05, discussed by hosts as a poor choice of words)
• On modern education:
  • “13% of kids going to college… don’t test at first grade math level.” (Carol, 26:35)
• On community and parenting:
  • “Let me grab your kids and take them to the park. Would that help you out?” (Mary Katherine, 41:09)

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Tone & Style

Mary Katherine and Carol combine sharp critique of policies and social trends with personal stories and humor. They bring skepticism toward both political figures and the media, emphasize personal responsibility, and advocate rebuilding lost forms of community engagement—all while retaining a lighthearted rapport.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is a pointed, engaging conversation about the failure of political consistency (with Trump’s immigration position as Exhibit A), the alarming decline in educational achievement and standards, and the challenges modern parents face trying to create supportive networks without the built-in communities of past generations. The hosts offer critical takes, a blend of lived experience, and practical suggestions on how to move forward—as parents, citizens, and consumers of media.

Transcript

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

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[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Hey guys.

[Donald Trump (clip)]

We are back on normally the show.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

With normalist takes for when the news gets weird.

I am Mary Katherine Camp.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I'm Carol Markowitz. How are you, Mary Katherine? What day is it?

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

God, who even knows? It feels late in the week. It's a Saturday. I got my dolly shirt on. So that's. Love the dolly today.

[Carol Markowitz]

Love it. Very cool. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not really sure what day it is. I don't know. Sometimes like right before Thanksgiving, things start to move very quickly and like the Christmas lights are up in our part of Florida and TJ Maxx is playing Christmas music, which makes me feel like it's post Thanksgiving. I'm very confused.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Yeah, I know. This is like a discussion everyone has. I am more of a wait till post Thanksgiving person for Christmas stuff because I feel like my days move fast enough as it is. Guys, I'm not sure that I need to speed this up.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. But I love like yesterday actually happened to be like a chilly day in Florida. So hearing it's beginning to look a lot like Christmas at my local TJ Maxx.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

I enjoyed that when it was 72.

[Carol Markowitz]

Degrees outside 65 and everybody was freezing to death. It was really cold. I couldn't watch my son's soccer last night. I was so cold I had to go wait in the car.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Yeah, I understand. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So I'm holding off for a little while. Not on Christmas present buying. I actually did start that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, nice.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

So you're welcome. Economy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

But the decorating, I will hold off till a little at least I will start gathering a little bit before Thanksgiving and I'll try to hold off until post Thanksgiving.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love it. Keep us posted. By the way, everybody, Thanksgiving is two weeks from tomorrow. Two weeks today. If you're hearing it on Thursday, two weeks from today. Friends, get your turkey.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

It's happening too fast. Okay.

[Carol Markowitz]

All right, let's do it. Donald Trump. What is going on with him? Yeah, I don't know. He had an interview with Laura Ingraham on Fox News. You would expect that interview to be fairly friendly. It got pretty contentious. And it's on the issue that you and I often say Donald Trump is a liberal on, which is immigration, which is, there's a lot of irony there, right? He's the build a wall, make Mexico pay for it, mass deportations, all of that. But whenever he has the opportunity, he's like, let's let in a bunch of like, you know, Chinese college students. Let's do like 300,000 of them or things like that. And it is, it's confusing, but that's our, that's our Donald Trump and that's where we are. Let's play the clip from Laura's show and then discuss it.

[Donald Trump (clip)]

Publicans have to talk about it. And does that mean the H1B visa.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Thing will not be a big priority for your administration? Because if you want to raise wages for American workers, you can't flood the country with, with tens of thousands or.

[Donald Trump (clip)]

Hundreds of thousands of foreign workers. Also do have to bring in talent when we have plenty of talented people. No, you don't. No, you don't. We don't have talented people. No, you don't have, you don't have certain talents. And you have to, people have to learn. You can't take people off an unemployment, like an unemployment line and say, I'm going to put you into a factory, we're going to make missiles, or I'm going to how do we ever do it before? Well, let me, and I'll give you an example. In Georgia, they raided because they wanted illegal immigrants. They had people from, from South Korea that made batteries all their lives. You know, making batteries are very complicated. It's not an easy thing and very dangerous. A lot of expensive explosions, a lot of problems. They had like five or six hundred people, early stages to make batteries and to teach people how to do it. Well, they wanted them to get out of the country. You're going to need that, Laura. I mean, I know you and I disagree on this. You can't just say a country's coming in, going to invest $10 billion to build a plant and get to take people off an unemployment line who haven't worked in five years and they're going to start making missiles. It doesn't work that way.

[Carol Markowitz]

Doesn't work that way.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

MARY CATHERINE well, Trump has a way, despite being a, like, in some ways, a phenomenal communicator will stumble on phrases that are like, oh, no, sir. Yes, like, no, you don't have talent in this country. It's not a thing. Yeah, that's not what we're trying to say.

[Carol Markowitz]

It was extremely cringy. And yet it's like, you know, he got defensive and he doesn't really mean that.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

But yes, it was, you know what it remind. You know what it reminded me of? It's like when he gets in his tough love love vibe. And some of that I like because people do need to hear as you. And I agree, there are some very specialized things that you need folks for, and sometimes they can come from other countries, and that's fine. It reminded me of his tough love moment when he was like, you know, kids will just have two dolls instead of 30 dolls. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We do not like that messaging in the United States of America.

[Carol Markowitz]

Your dolls.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

So now he's doing it on the economy. And look, I think whether it's immigration or the economy in general or affordability, if you sort of shush people about their very real concerns about their livelihoods and their affordability and their ability to shop and all of these things, you will get in trouble no matter what party you are in or how much they like you.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, absolutely. And look, the HB one thing, like there is a moderate path here, which is you need some number of specialized people on the HB1 visa. Keep that number really small because Laura's right. We did used to do this somehow. Right? We did used to do this.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

You would train people to do it for the jobs.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. You kind of have to figure out how you make batteries or we, we do it. We actually did do it and we should do it. And if we need some tiny number of specialized people in the meantime, that's fine. That's not what's going on here. There's been so many articles and so many people speaking out about HB1 abuses. You and I covered it on previous episodes of the so there is a lot of abuse of this program. It needs to be reformed. It cannot continue the way it is.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Well, and I think Trump is a person who, if he were giving a consistent message about how he's vetting this system, how he's making sure it's working properly, but in this situation, he's specifically saying, no, we need these people. And then he goes on a little mini rant in there about the Hyundai plant. I just want to point out that when he says they went to go get these specialized workers that you need to make batteries, the they is ice.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Under Donald Trump's administration. So if we indeed need those workers, many of which had short term Visas. I don't know how many of them were actually in here illegally and how many had permits that. I think the federal government said the permits weren't exactly correct for them to be here. Whatever it was, it disrupted that plant immensely. And again, it was his immigration enforcement. Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

He's really mad at the people who did this.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Be consistent about it so people can trust you to vet the system properly. And then, as you said, we're open to the idea that you do need some people, but that American companies shouldn't be faking like they're trying to hire Americans when they're really not doing that, which is some of what we've seen in the.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, I hate that people try to fit Donald Trump, you know, triangle into a round peg. He is who he is and he, he says who he is. I don't think he ran as a different person. I think this is who he's been. And you and I were calling him out in so many different ways. I mean, even just like the million dollar green card or any of these things, it's a very specific type of immigration argument that Donald Trump is making. I don't agree with it, but this is who he is. Because I see people on X being like, whichever staffer gave him this information is really misguided. Like, bro, it was no staffer. This was Donald Trump being Donald Trump.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Yeah. Well, I do think this is one of those issues where, if you're concerned about losing the more isolationist America first wing of the party, if you're looking to speak to the young men in that segment about their future economically, this is ground on which you should tread carefully, because those folks were looking to you to make their economic prospects better. And you have to explain to them that the H1B visas or the Chinese nationals will not be causing the problems they think they will cause.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, absolutely. But again, they voted for him being this guy. Like, I, I don't think anything new has happened since his election. I think that this is who he is. He, he has this impulse of, you know, I'll bring in. It could be millions of people, but they'll be the best people. But we're like, but that would still harm the best people that we have here. It just, it's sort of like he doesn't see the, the next thing that happens just over the horizon. What problems could happen with this?

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

No, he, he is often the fastest path guy. Right? He, he's like, here's the fastest path in the, in the last week or two. The fastest path in his brain was, my team gets rid of the filibuster, we get this thing done. Yep. That wasn't the correct path, but it could have been. It was the most efficient in Donald Trump's brain to solve the problem.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

But it turned out like, you don't need to do that and you shouldn't do that. But he often will make that decision, like, this is the fastest path to getting these batteries made.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. In other Donald Trump news, the headlines today are about Donald Trump's connection to Jeffrey Epstein. And look, you know, it's hard when you defend somebody in a story that's developing, but all of the evidence up until now do not have Donald Trump in any compromising positions with Jeffrey Epstein. And the story today is, is no different. In fact, I think that it's just, it's almost cowardly in how it's being presented and how the left is making their case that Donald Trump had something to do with anything with Jeffrey Epstein here. But, you know, these emails that were released do not show anything that the headlines promise to show. So it's an exchange between Michael Wolff, who has written a Trump biography that had a lot of questionable parts in it that people called, possibly made up, but he's, he's considered largely a fabulist. And let's just, you know, say that. But so in this email, Michael Wolf is emailing with Jeffrey Epstein, and he says, I hear CNN planning to ask Trump tonight about his relationship with you, either on air or in the scrum afterwards. So already he's got inside information from cnn, really shady stuff, like they're coordinating how to get Donald Trump.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

And this is the date this is 2016, right.

[Carol Markowitz]

2015. December 2015. So Trump has, you know, just recently announced and he's running. And clearly they want to have just the final nail in the Trump campaign coffin.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

They're trying to get him on this. And so Jeffrey Epstein responds, if we were able to craft an answer for him, what do you think it should be? Wolf responds, I think you should let him hang himself. If he says he hasn't been on the plane or to the House, then that gives you a valuable PR and political currency. You can hang him in a way that potentially generates a positive benefit for you, or if it really looks like he could win, you could save him generating a debt. Of course, it is possible that when asked, he'll say, jeffrey's a great guy and has gotten a raw deal and is a victim of political correctness, which is to be outlawed in a Trump regime. I Mean, Trump pretty came. I don't, I don't. I don't think he says Jeffrey's a great guy, but I think he does say the raw deal part. So, you know, Wolf kind of got that right. But this is a plan to get Donald Trump. So anybody reading this and telling me that this is some kind of smoking gun didn't read this. That's just what I have to come up with here.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Well, I. Look this. One of the costs of having everyone lied systematically about Donald Trump for the entirety of his first term and then afterwards, many times about many things, is that I do have to evaluate all of these quite closely. And one of the things I wonder is if we had this information in 2016. Or there's another email it looks like, dated a little bit somewhat earlier, that's about him spending time at a. At a house with a victim.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Is what the claim is. If. But my question is, if we had all of these emails and if Wolf in particular had these emails or the Biden administration had these emails, and all these people have been desirous to foil Trump from day one, why have we not seen them until now? Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

Because there's nothing. There's no there there. Another email, October 2016, from Michael Wolf. There's an opportunity to come forward this week and talk about Trump in such a way that could garner you great sympathy and help finish him. Interested. I mean, this is the guy that they're turning to. This is the guy that they're saying they. They have some sort of smoking gun. It's just. It's crazy to me. And, you know.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Yeah. With this story, I never want to discount. There were true victims here who are. Who are sometimes under. They are still subject to NDAs. Many of them, we won't hear their full stories. They were abused by people. This is a real tragic story. And I have been frustrated from day one that Epstein seems to have gotten a sweetheart deal and then he left this earth before all of this was adjudicated in a way that we felt like we had answers. It's always been strange. And as a result, I think there are people who didn't get justice.

[Carol Markowitz]

I agree.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

However, in this process, it does seem like a lot of people care about this case who never cared about it before and are bringing me things that if they were indeed as damning as they claim, I think they would have used them in 20, 10, 11, 15, 16, 18, 20. Like what, any of those times. Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

Look, the question is, do you want justice for the victims or do you want to get Donald Trump and all of the people reporting on these BS emails today just want to get Donald Trump. Speaking of which, our friend Brian Stelter, he tweets Jeffrey Epstein mentioned Trump in private emails is the lead story across most major news websites this morning. Nothing on the Fox News page homepage yet though. And no mention on Fox News TV yet either. Per my Snap Stream search. Fox should go ahead and mention it because this is a nonsense story and they should shoot it down and that's it. The fact that Brian Stelter's like Fox should be covering this nonsense story that we made up to hurt Trump is very Brian Stelter.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Speaking of unreliable narrators, Brian Stelzer the other day wrote about the this we actually should put it on our list to talk about. There's this blockbuster BBC internal report about all the things it has done horribly wrong, including its pervasive bias on the Israel Gaza issue. Yeah, it and it, it edited in a documentary Trump to look as if he were saying we shall go to the Capitol together and all fight like hell. Which is not. It was all cobbled together in a way to make it seem like he had said something he hadn't said. It was very dishonest and several executives resigned over it. And I read Brian Stelter's story on it and it was not until the first paragraph that I was informed of the bad edit that he referred to in the first two paragraphs that told me how dishonest the BBC had been. And instead I was learning a lot about how the BBC was overreacting because Trump threats.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right, right. I believe that. Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

I think the headline should just do their job correctly, maybe that way.

[Carol Markowitz]

I mean imagine that. But I think the headline or his tweet on it was like BBC in a vulnerable position. Like ye. They're in a vulnerable, vulnerable position because they are terrible at the job that the British public actually pays them to do. They are a publicly funded TV station news station in Britain that lied to the British people, completely lied to them. And not just on one occasion, on many occasions. And so yeah, people resigned because they were liars and they allowed this to go on. Brian Seltzer's like, I'm a little concerned about that. Lying, lying, lying liars news station. Just come on.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Oh man. Yeah, no accountability.

[Carol Markowitz]

Zero. CNN would love to be BBC, you know, lying and being paid by the public.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Oh my gosh, they would love my money. But nope, not gonna happen in America.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes, God bless the usa. We'll be right back with more on normally.

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[Ed Helms]

Hey everyone, Ed Helms here.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

And hi, I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Jenny Garfield, host of the I Heart Podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Carol Markowitz]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

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You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet, I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett here. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

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[Carol Markowitz]

We are back on normally where this has become our pet issue, I think. And I love that we keep covering it. Because the kids, they can't read good.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

No. And they also can't do math, it turns out.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

No.

[Carol Markowitz]

No math and no reading going on in our schools. It's a real problem. How big of a problem is it, though? And this new report out of UC San Diego. It was highlighted for me on x by Steve McGuire. He is a Paul and Karen Levy Fellow in Campus Freedom at Goacta. He says the number of entering students needing remedial math at UC San Diego has exploded from 1 in 100 to 1 in 8. That is bananas. They had to, he writes, they had to create a second remedial class covering elementary and middle school math skills in addition to the one covering gaps from high school. Read that again. They had to create a second remedial class at UC San Diego to cover skills that these kids didn't learn in elementary and middle school, in addition to the class they already had covering gaps from high school.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

These are people who have been accepted to a college. Yeah, they are attending a college. I want to note, look, I, I have one of my children in particular really struggles with math and we work together very, very hard on it. And I was struck by the fact that they offer one of these, they offer one of these problems that 25% of a cohort they tested got wrong. This question is seven plus two equals blank plus six.

[Carol Markowitz]

I. That is terrifying to me. Terrifying.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

25% of the students missed this in the cohort they tested in college. My daughter, who struggles with math and with whom I work closely on this would knock that out of the park.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right?

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

It is scary.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's scary. I mean, look, pandemic learning loss only explains some of this. The education system is failing. It is failing on so many different levels. It's like legitimately scary. And I just really don't know the example that you gave. The seven plus two equals blank plus six. I mean, Tommy Schultz, he is the CEO of American Federation for Children. He points out that in one class only 87% tested at a first grade math level. That means 13% of kids going to college, college in UC San Diego don't test at first grade math level. And only 19%. 19%. That means I'm not good at math. But 81% do not test at eighth grade level. These numbers are absolutely bananas.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

No, it's so frightening. And the thing is, as you said, it's not just pandemic learning loss, although that is a huge hit. It is years of great inflation. Like honestly, much of the DEI problems, so much of that college people, people being picked not for skills, standardized tests being foregone in order to get people into college. So you don't. And, and just like general parents and teachers, I think not having high expectations and instead papering it all over with fake grades. And when you paper it all over with fake grades, you will not learn things. Yeah, and like that, that's a lesson that's hard for everyone to learn. I mean, there I was, not great at math. I struggled with it as a child, same same girl. And you had to push through and learn the skills. And when you push through and learn the skills, not only do you learn the skill, but you learn that you can learn things.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yep, yep. It gives you a sense of pride and the self esteem that they so claim to want the kids to have, to let them struggle and then succeed at something. It's not removing the struggle that brings that self esteem. Also about the DEI Stuff. I maintain that pushing nonsense curriculums in schools, in Our K through 12 schools, every minute that they spend on land acknowledgments and, you know, pretending that boys can become girls and vice versa is a minute that they're not spending on math and reading. That's why classical education has become so popular across America, because people are like, I want them to learn how to read and write and do math and not all this other stuff that you're pushing.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Yeah. It's funny because public school teachers and school boards and union leaders will tell you all the time that public school teachers are overwhelmed, that they have a bandwidth issue. There are so many children at so many levels, and some of that is certainly true. But then they'll also tell you that gender ideology, instruction and social emotional learning takes nothing away from what they're doing with the reading and the math, which they're failing at in huge numbers. I want to say a word about a. The local Northern Virginia schools, which are in this deep blue area and were before the pandemic, a real crown jewel of the state when it came to public education in general. They were thought of as some of the best in the country, but now not so much. And one of the things that the Virginia Department of Education did under Youngkin this year is bump up the state end of grade testing levels that would. Would be deemed proficient because they want to set high expectations. They want to chart accurately where students are. And my local school board, of course, is like, let's. This is bad. They have full debate about how raising these expectations is bad. Because what they want to do is have the expectations lower and pretend like they're succeeding. That is their desire. Stated desire in public at school board meetings is that high expectations would tell the truth about what they're doing and they don't like.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yep. Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

And I want to, I want to note one guy in particular on our board who has this insane quote because they're. They're complaining about a decline in student enrollment. Gee, what could have happened, I wonder, that made the students leave because they don't get their money when they don't have enrollment.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

And he says, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that any public school in our county will give a kid a better education than homeschooling or private school, regardless of the school or how qualified the students are that are teaching.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, sure.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

That is such an insane statement to make when you have in front of you the ways you're failing. But they want to project all of that on anyone who left the system.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

To escape their incompetence.

[Carol Markowitz]

It's crazy because there are numbers on this kind of stuff and it's not homeschooling kids showing up to college not knowing extremely basic math from first grade.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

We got a lot of work to do. Mississippi Miracle needs to move on to math and we gotta have it all over the country eventually because we are losing ground. And this is actually connected to that H1B issue as well. Right. If you are sending people to college who can't do first grade math. Yes. We are going to have a smaller pool coming out of those education systems that can do the things we need them to do. Period.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. The kids, they need to read. Good. That's it.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

We're putting our foot down on it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. All right. We'll be right back with more on normally. Do we need a village to raise the children? Maybe.

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[Ed Helms]

Hey everyone. Ed Helms here.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

And hi, I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garfield, host of the I Heart Podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Carol Markowitz]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

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You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ed Helms]

Okay, that's really sweet, I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett.

[Carol Markowitz]

Here.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

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[Mary Katherine Campbell]

All right, we are back on normally with a discussion of does it take a village? There's a piece in the Atlantic this week called the most useless piece of parenting advice. The problem with telling moms, quote, it takes a village. And it's a writer who complains that, like, look, she had some help here and there. But in fact, building a village is hard or nearly impossible for many women once they have kids. She says not every mother is able to create a village of free or cheap helpers whom they already know. Times have changed since millennials were little and neighborhoods had lots of stay at home moms available to pitch in for nearly 70% of kids under 6 today, both parents work, compared with half in 1985. Your friends with kids might not be able to do school pickup in an emergency because they too might be working. We just don't have as many people around. Elliot Haspel, a childcare researcher who has written for the Atlantic, told me there are just fewer people physically available to call. So she's saying like, great, thanks for telling me to build a village. This feels like yet another thing on my to do list that I cannot do. And I'm just wondering what your take is on the village, Carol.

[Carol Markowitz]

So it's funny because I had a village. I have a village, but less of one in Florida, But I absolutely had the village in Brooklyn. My mom was super involved. My brother would literally pick up the kids from school several days a week before he had his own kids. My in laws were incredible and super involved. My sister in law, my husband's sister also was super involved and his brother as well. We had that. We had it. And we had it because we had family that lived close together and there were certain expectations. It also helped. We had the only grandchildren at the time.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Right?

[Carol Markowitz]

But there, yeah, look, there in our culture, there are certain expectations. My mother and I never discussed it, but when I had my second child and she saw that I was drowning, she started coming to my house every day at six in the morning with no discussion. Now, the problem with the village, I mean, there's several problems with it. When my mother would give them Swedish fish in the middle of the day or chocolate or cookies, I could say, please don't do that. And she could wave her hand at me like, I'm going to do that anyway. Because part of the thing of an unpaid village is you do things the way they want sometimes. So you have to give in a little bit. Otherwise you can. And she addresses this in the piece. She could say that you could buy a village. You know, I don't have a village, so I buy one. She writes some of these moms have nannies, house cleaners, dog walkers and house managers that they have less expensive villagers. Various moms told me that the McDonald's drive thru Instacart and Doordash were their village. Paying people is a remedy for not having a village and indeed it's the one that I chose. But it's hardly a solution for everyone or even for most people. But for me, I rather have my family than a nanny that I hire. And I know that that's not the case for a lot of people. I was willing to bend on the things that I didn't like in order to have people that I, you know, I'm related to be the caretakers of my children. And I say to my own kids, if you stay close to where I am, I promise to be there in the same capacity. I will be the person you can count on when you're, you know, to pick up the kids from school or to really show up at your house in the morning, get them off to school, all of it. I'll be there if you stay close to me.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

This piece sort of misses the trade off bit and I do think that's what keeps a lot. There's a geography problem where many young families don't live close to extended family anymore. And that's sort of the case with us. But we have two wonderful sets of grandparents who will travel here to hang out with our kids, sometimes for an overnight or a weekend. And that is wonderful. We also can go to them pretty easily and, and they're fit and able to do that. You do give something in a village situation, right? If you have a mother in law who lives in your home, for instance, as one of my friends does, you're giving up some autonomy. You're giving up the ability to dictate everything that happens with your children. You're giving up some space, some, you know, the privacy, all these things. I think that's sort of missed in these discussions as is the idea that like a lot of people are in a community, say you don't have your extended family around you and your desire is that once you've had a baby that immediately a village should show up for you.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right, Right.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

And the thing is, you gotta work on that before you're in the moment. Yep. So, for instance, I've fallen into this group of lovely military spouses, Marine and army moms who live near me. And they are fantastic at actively creating community because they have to move around and create a community everywhere they go every two years. So when they Land. They hit the ground running. They are in a church, they are in scouts, they are in the school. And because I've fallen in with them, and because I think I had my own crisis in my own life where people really showed up for me, I have adopted better habits of when I know someone's in a place. Let me be the person who takes the thing over. Let me be the person who says, let me grab your kids and take them to the park. Would that help you out if you're not depositing in the bank?

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly. You really can't withdraw. Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

It's tough, right?

[Carol Markowitz]

I think it was Tim Carney. I didn't look this up, but I think it was Tim Carney who actually talks about the village often. But he said, you know, if you are hoping for somebody to help you with childcare in your village, you're gonna have to help, like, the old man on your street move. Like, you're gonna, you know, there, there. You have to participate in the village. You can't just be like, all right, guys, I need childcare. Who.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Who's in it of things that I need. And y' all just come to me now. There are, like, I would say in my crisis situation, when my husband died in 2015, that was such a dire situation that a village kind of did form around me that was much bigger than the one that I had probably established before that. I also learned to ask for help and to accept help in different forms than I might otherwise have dictated because I was place where I needed that. And so I do think this piece. And a lot of these pieces miss the part where you gotta, like, do some of that, right?

[Carol Markowitz]

Absolutely.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

And it is tough. You got a lot on your plate. But if it's also good for you to do this kind of thing, I would also like to note that the same author wrote a piece called How Baby Led Weaning Ruined My Life, which you should not let any parenting philosophy ruin your life. And I would just say maybe she has a tough time with these kinds of concepts. It's. It is. It is a puzzle in these modern times. But there are ways you can improve your situation.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes. You have to bend. I mean, that's really. That's where it comes down to. You have to bend to get all of these things that you hear about and keep seeing these pieces about people needing a village. Build the village.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Build it. It's difficult. One more thing that I would say, and I'm sure you have experience with this in your immigrant community. One of the things I Think in the type of community that this author lives in, I think there's a lot of like apprehension about can I bring a lasagna to your door? Do you have 18 dietary restrictions?

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

To some extent you gotta pushy your way past the social boundaries and just do the thing. The mil spouse community is also southern, which means we're like very natural going to take food to people.

[Carol Markowitz]

They sound awesome.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

They are. They are truly awesome. And I actually asked them for some of their tips and those like the joining the church, having a scout group forming community.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Who would have felt it?

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Yeah. Dive also just diving in. And I think that's part of it. Like you have to just do the thing even though you're busy, even though it's hard, even though it feels weird to show up on someone's doorstep, but you gotta do it.

[Carol Markowitz]

I'm gonna start making lasagnas and showing up on doorsteps. I really am.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

People like that.

[Carol Markowitz]

I need to do a little better in Florida. I'm, you know, trying, but need to try a little harder.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

Yep, I get it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, thanks for joining us us on normally. Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

[Mary Katherine Campbell]

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[Mary Katherine Campbell]

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[Mary Katherine Campbell]

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[Mary Katherine Campbell]

This is an iHeart podcast.