Normally Podcast: Trump's Tariffs Are Here...Now What?!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show Episode: Normally Podcast: Trump's Tariffs Are Here...Now What?! Release Date: April 8, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, hosts Mary Kathryn Hamm and Carol Markowitz delve into the resurgence of trade tariffs under the Trump administration. Titled "Trump's Tariffs Are Here...Now What?!", the episode explores the implications of these tariffs on the U.S. economy, the stock market, and international trade relations. The discussion is rich with insights, differing perspectives, and notable quotes that shed light on the current economic climate.

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Resurgence of Tariffs and Market Reactions

Mary Kathryn Hamm ([04:02] MM): "If you're trying to solve every trade deficit, we're going to be in trouble."

Carol Markowitz ([04:20] CM): "America had an exciting weekend. The tariff thing really came to a head after we recorded our last episode."

The hosts begin by addressing the recent implementation of tariffs by President Trump, highlighting the immediate negative reaction from the stock market. CM notes the volatility, saying, "The stock market had a real bad day on Friday and it's not having a great day today" ([04:20]).

Mary Kathryn Hamm adds, "There's a significant percentage of people who have investments in the stock market, including those who had a working-class or a government career and have pensions that are invested in the stock market" ([05:54]). This underscores the widespread impact of the tariffs beyond traditional investors.

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Impact on International Trade and Manufacturing

CM: "The question going forward is who do we want to be? And I don't see why we want to be a manufacturing hub."

The discussion shifts to the broader implications of the tariffs on international trade. CM questions the strategic direction of the U.S., debating whether a return to manufacturing dominance is beneficial or sustainable in the current global economy.

MM counters, "I don't find the trade deficit inherently to be a problem... If we're trying to solve every trade deficit, we're going to be in trouble" ([08:36]). She argues that not all trade deficits are detrimental and that strategic management is crucial.

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Strategic Use of Tariffs and Policy Goals

MM: "Remember ultimately what the goal here is to achieve a more balanced trade with the rest of the world" ([12:00]).

CM introduces a perspective from John Carney, a finance and economics editor at Breitbart, sharing his support for the tariffs as a tool to address trade imbalances. This segment includes a critical analysis of how tariffs are being used as strategic measures rather than mere economic tools.

MM elaborates, "We are not going to absorb these surpluses anymore. We are going to put a tariff on you. If you start to bring down your tariff barriers... then we will lower the reciprocal tariff" ([12:00]). This highlights the transactional nature of the current tariff strategy.

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Consequences of the Tariff Strategy

CM: "Being the one making the rules, all the other people have no idea what you're going to do next. That is a formula for having people hang on to their money until they figure out what you're going to do" ([16:08]).

MM expresses concerns about the unpredictability introduced by the tariff strategy, emphasizing the market's uncertainty and its ripple effects on everyday goods and services: "It will affect goods at some point as well. Beyond the markets" ([16:54]).

The hosts discuss legislative responses, mentioning a Senate bill sponsored by Grassley and its companion in the House by Representative Don Bacon, aiming to reclaim congressional authority over tariff decisions ([17:12]). MM voices skepticism about the use of emergency powers, paralleling the recent Covid pandemic measures: "He's saying this is a trade emergency. I don't believe it's a trade emergency" ([17:15]).

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Economic Theories and Opinions

CM references economist Thomas Sowell, criticizing the current tariff approach as ruinous and indicative of a broader trade war: "He’s using these tariffs to get various strategic things settled and that he's satisfied with that" ([15:39]).

MM challenges the sustainability of Trump's approach, questioning whether the strategy effectively addresses underlying issues or merely creates short-term disruptions: "I'm not sure we're fixing the problem that we're trying to fix" ([09:24]).

The discussion includes personal anecdotes about the real-world impact of tariffs, such as the spike in bathroom tile prices during the initial Trump tariffs and the broader effects on consumer goods and employment.

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Political and Social Implications

Transitioning from economics to politics, the hosts touch on recent protests and political unrest. CM notes, "There were protests... They didn't seem as motivated. They seemed less clear" ([21:15]).

The conversation highlights violent incidents associated with protests, reflecting growing tensions and the potential for increased polarization: "A pro-life reporter was punched in the face in Harlem over the weekend" ([23:11]).

MM emphasizes the role of voting as a more powerful tool than protests in effecting change: "What's even more powerful than nationwide protests? The voting. The voting" ([22:33]).

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Violent Rhetoric and Public Safety Concerns

CM shares alarming statistics from the Network Contagion Research Institute, revealing that over 55% of left-leaning respondents see some justification for killing President Trump: "[...] Over 55% of left-leaning respondents felt there was some justification for killing President Trump" ([25:46]).

MM discusses the dangerous trajectory of escalating violent rhetoric, urging for Democratic leaders to temper the discourse: "Democratic politicians need to be at the forefront of that saying violent rhetoric is not going to be okay" ([25:46]).

The hosts express deep concerns about the potential for increased violence and the undermining of civil discourse, emphasizing the need for responsible leadership to mitigate these risks.

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Concluding Thoughts

In wrapping up, CM and MM reflect on the complexities of the current political and economic landscape. They call for measured responses to tariffs and a return to constructive political engagement through voting and dialogue rather than protests and violence.

CM: "When things get weird, act normally" ([37:34]).

MM reinforces the importance of adaptability and resilience in both personal and national contexts, encouraging listeners to navigate the turbulent times with composure and strategic thinking.

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Notable Quotes

• Mary Kathryn Hamm ([05:54]): "There's a significant percentage of people who have investments in the stock market, including those who had a working-class or a government career and have pensions that are invested in the stock market."

• Carol Markowitz ([15:39]): "It's painful to see a ruinous decision being repeated now insofar as he's using these tariffs to get various strategic things settled and that he's satisfied with that."

• Mary Kathryn Hamm ([16:54]): "It will affect goods at some point as well. Beyond the markets."

• Carol Markowitz ([25:44]): "Over 55% of left-leaning respondents felt there was some justification for killing President Trump. It's a real powder keg and I think we need to be way more worried about it."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show provides an in-depth analysis of the current tariff situation under President Trump, examining its economic impacts, political ramifications, and the societal tensions it exacerbates. Through a balanced discussion, Hamm and Markowitz offer listeners a comprehensive understanding of the complexities surrounding trade policies and their far-reaching consequences.

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Note: This summary intentionally omits advertisements and non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussions within the episode.

Transcript

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

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[Carol Markowitz]

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[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

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[Carol Markowitz]

I am Mary Kathryn Hamm And I'm Carol Markowitz.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Hi.

[Carol Markowitz]

Mary Kathryn. I think we both had very exciting weekends.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

We did. It was my birthday, so I got. I took a little trip. Thank you. I took a little trip to New York City and had a sort of a stereotypically a little bit touristy New York day. Central park, champagne at a steakhouse, got my nails done, went to the Comedy Cellar. It was a great day.

[Carol Markowitz]

That sounds amazing. Nothing any of that. Yeah, I celebrated my husband and I 16th anniversary also in New York. Actually we didn't see each other. It was different days. I also saw Sebastian Maniscalco and Pete Corieli on Friday night in Florida. Hilarious. I will just say if they are touring anywhere near you, it's a must see. I cried laughing for the whole time.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

That's awesome. I think I saw Sebastian one time years ago, but I will look out again.

[Carol Markowitz]

He's also my celebrity. Like one time I asked on Twitter if you. Who do you think you'd be friends with? That's a celebrity that you don't know. And him and his wife are like my. I feel like if we met each other we'd have a good time.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

You guys would be buds. I love it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, I think so. Does that sound creepy? A little, right? No, no.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

I'm here for it. I'm here for it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Alright, who's yours? Come on.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

No, mine used to be. Actually. I used to think that I would be great friends with Mindy Kaling, but now she's hanging with Meghan Markle and I just don't think it's a match anymore.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah, she's very talented, but I think she's. Yeah, it's just a. It's a bridge I can't cross. So if offered the chance, I probably wouldn't be at the American Riviera with Mindy.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

I have to think of a couple friend so that. So that Steve can have a buddy. I like that. Maybe whenever Glen Powell gets married, we'll see who he pairs up with.

[Carol Markowitz]

Well, it's also exciting weekend for America. My goodness, America had an exciting weekend. The tariff thing really came to a head after we recorded our last episode. And of course we record this twice a week and we get a lot of like, why didn't you cover this? And we're like, because it happened after we recorded. And that's how it goes. But the stock market had a real bad day on Friday and it's not having a great day today. Monday. You know, I have said on here that I'm cautiously optimistic I'm still kind of in the same place on this, but I don't like the people that are similar to me that are like, let's wait and see what happens. I don't like the dismissiveness and I don't like the, I just think it's got a very learn to code feel to it. Like, oh, who cares about the stock market? Real Americans don't invest in the stock market. Well, I don't know that that's true. A, but also B, a lot of this does have a lasting effect and not just for people who invest in the stock market.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah, I agree with you. There's a lot of, there's a significant percentage of people who have investments in the stock market, including those who had a working class or a government career and have pensions that are invested in the stock market. So that's a large part of these sort of crossover union voters that those dismissing their concerns should be careful about doing that with. I don't feel great about it. I am always rooting for the policies of the US and the president, no matter the party, to work out for us. And yet I see a lot of indications that or a lot of confusion about this one and exactly what we're trying to accomplish. And I know we have some clips about it by the way. There was a huge dip in stocks and then a huge rise in stocks and then a fall off again because of a very strange thing this morning, which was that someone named Bloomberg on X watched a clip of an economic advisor of Trump's on Fox over interpreted it hit as him saying Trump was considering a 90 day pause in tariffs. And when he tweeted that a bunch of people saw it on X and it changed the market. The market soared for a few seconds and then someone said no, that was fake news. And then the market sank again. So there it's an interesting, just a microcosm of how news works these days and sometimes a random dude named Bloomberg not getting the right thing from an interview on Fox means that the world markets will change. And also maybe a signal to Trump that like, hey, if I paused these terrorists, look what would happen to the market. I think my concern is that it looks like he's trying to solve the problem. Not so much of tariffs. Right. Like there's been news that 50 countries have come to him and said, hey, we'll do zero tariffs. If you guys like let's get this figured out. You know, Taiwan is among them. Zimbabwe I think was mentioned. You know, there's everybody's coming to the table. I'm, I have no doubt that he wants to do those deals. Right. But if we wanted zero tariffs, how does that get us back to American manufacturing in a statute that's just free trade, which I am in favor of, but maybe not doing in this fashion, which is pretty disruptive. So there's that going on. But then there's also people who are saying, no, we need to fix the trade deficit balance.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

I don't find the trade deficit inherently to be a problem. Sometimes it's a problem. But I, I've pointed this out since Trump's first term because he does not like trade deficits. He feels like we're getting ripped off if we have a trade deficit. I have a trade deficit with Bojangles because I buy lots of biscuits there and it's the best place to buy biscuits, but they don't need my podcasting skills yet. So we're in a trade deficit. But that's not inherently problematic because I can sell my products elsewhere and I'm getting the thing I need efficiently from Bojangles. Right. So if we're trying to solve every trade deficit, we're going to be in trouble. And I don't think that's going to be a free trade scenario like the ones where Vietnam and others are coming to the table and saying zero tariffs.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. That's the question going forward is who do we want to be? And I don't see why we want to be a manufacturing hub. I think that that is just sort of not necessarily a positive for us. I get the argument of bringing some manufacturing back to the US But a lot of it, it benefits us not being here. And look, you know, I, I feel like my impulses is to be anti tariff, and that's why I'm being kind of cautious here and kind of listening to what the Trump administration actually wants to do. And I'll say there are two kinds of int Supporter, right? There's the supporter that just likes the guy, trusts him, maybe loves how crazy he makes. The left is willing to give him leeway on the more far out ideas like tariffing the whole world. And then there's the type that loves Trump because of these kinds of proposals. I think of Batya Unger Sargan as one person. She basically overlooks everything she doesn't like about Donald Trump and his Trumpism because he speaks to her values and aligns with her issues. And of course, that makes me a little nervous because I love her, but she's pretty far left, Right?

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Exactly.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Well, go back to our original issue with Trump.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes, yes, exactly. So my friend John Carney, he's finance and economics editor at Breitbart. He's another person like this. He has been pro tariff before. Donald Trump was a thing. He doesn't fall in line with Trump. He supports Trump because Trump believes what he believes. And I have a clip I want to play from John Carney because I think he, he's saying some things I haven't heard other people say.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Trump just didn't want to inflict that much pain or he didn't think he'd get them to come down. I mean, I think that, I know this is wonky, but you get this is that like it's one thing to.

[Carol Markowitz]

Say your tariff is 10, you take it, we're going to go to 10 and if you want to come down.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

We'Ll both come down. But when they started adding these non.

[Carol Markowitz]

Tariff barriers like the vat, which is.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

What Europe uses, their tax system, I don't know how you place a number on that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Like, so how does Europe say how.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

How are you valuing our VAT? You guys have 50 state taxes and you want us to, you know, you subsidize certain things, you know, so what are we supposed to do? I think that that's, that to me is, is kind of the, the kicker is that like, do you think that they have set themselves up for success, I guess is the best way to do this at getting another country to say fine, we can get that number lower? I do think they have set themselves up for success in this. I think that just doing it mechanically on like, okay, here's your tariff, but we're going to ignore the non tariff barriers actually wouldn't have been very productive. Remember ultimately what the goal here is to achieve a more balanced trade with the rest of the world. Yes, we don't like the particular non tariff barriers and we don't like the tariffs, but those are really means to an end that countries use to create their giant surpluses that then the US has been forced to absorb. What we're saying is we're not going to absorb these surpluses anymore. We are going to put a tariff on you. If you start to bring down your tariff barriers and non tariff barriers and those result in our trade deficits and trade surpluses coming closer, then we will lower the reciprocal tariff. So this is a, like I said, it's a proxy for tariff levels and trade barriers. And the way they can fix that is by fixing the things that their country does that create this giant Trade imbalance.

[Carol Markowitz]

Now, John and I have disagreed plenty on this kind of thing. During the first Trump administration, I was remodeling and the price of bathroom tile spiked because of the China tariffs. And Carney got an earful from me. But I just want to put a voice out there that you may still disagree with. And I definitely listen to him and say, oh, I don't agree with this part or other things that he says, but that just isn't just rah, rah Trump for the sake of it. And I think that that's important to hear.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah, I think my concern about some of that is that some of the surplus we absorb, we absorb willingly and in fact enthusiastically. Right. So the surplus such that it is. And sometimes I agree that there are like ethical and trade practice concerns about like sheen clothes and all the Chinese plastic that my children are given at every birthday party they go to. Right. Like I have some concerns about that. But if you take those cheap goods from people quickly, much like the bathroom tile, and then they're not available to them any longer, they will find that they liked having those things and then they will be mad at you. I think one of the issues with this move too is that whatever comes of it, I think the uncertainty has already caused some problems and some damage. If you pull your own butt out of the fire at this point, I think that's better. And if you get some lower tariff rates, great, maybe that redounds to our benefit. But it's a real tough sell to tell people that they're feeling the short term pain for a long term gain. That again, I think American workers have, are correct in saying, hey, I'm not sure cheap goods were worth the trade, including the sheen clothing. We're worth the trade for losing all these solid jobs that we had back then. But I think that a new generation of Americans often doesn't really understand what that manufacturing, if it returned would look like. A lot of it would be automated. It's going to be a long time to get there. So I'm not sure we're fixing the problem that we're trying to fix. And I think there's other damages happening along the way.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, I think that that's exactly right. Somebody made the comment that the, the people on the right saying like, oh, we'll just all go back to the factories is like the Communists who believes that they'll be the poet in the, in the Marxist collective. They don't realize they're going to be like cleaning bathrooms. The great Thomas Sowell had a Very rare comment on these tariffs. Let's roll that clip.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

It's painful to see a ruinous decision.

[Carol Markowitz]

Being repeated now insofar as he's using these tariffs to get various strategic things settled and that he's satisfied with that.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

But if you've set off a worldwide.

[Carol Markowitz]

Trade war that has a devastating history, everybody loses because everybody follow suit. And all that happens is that you get great reduction in international trade.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

But if you are the one who's.

[Carol Markowitz]

Making the rules, then all the other people have no idea what you're going to do next. And that is a formula for having people hang on to their money until they figure out what you're going to do. Right. So I'm with Sol. I'm hoping he's using these tariffs to get various strategic things settled and that Trump will be satisfied with that. But it is concerning because people are paused right now and they're waiting to see what will happen. You know, they. Are they building a factory in America? Are they opening their factory in Vietnam that they were planning to. It's that kind of thing that really makes the markets worried. And again, even if you don't have money in the markets, it does trickle.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Down to everybody and it will affect goods at some point as well. Beyond the markets. There is a bill in the Senate sponsored by Grassley and I forget who the Democrat Companion is for co sponsoring. That would basically be Congress taking back its power to handle these tariffs. There is a companion.

[Carol Markowitz]

They used to like make laws and stuff.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

There's a Companion bill in the House. Representative Don Bacon introduced that one. And I said over the weekend, I was like, if so help me if this man makes Congress take back its power and do its job, I'll be like this is what I voted for. But I don't think that's the 40 chess at hand. Nonetheless, I like to see a little gumption from the Congress and who knows what will happen as that goes forward. But that's the other thing. I am highly suspicious of Yalls emergency powers post Covid. Right. Like, so he's saying this is a trade emergency. I don't believe it's a trade emergency. I think you're using emergency powers for something you wanted to do anyway. And I didn't like it in Covid and I don't like it now. So Congress, you should get get in that game.

[Carol Markowitz]

Maybe, you know, I don't know, do do the jobs you were elected to do.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Indeed.

[Carol Markowitz]

We'll be right back on normally.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

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[Carol Markowitz]

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[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

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[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, there were protests. They didn't seem as exciting as the pink hat protests in 2016. They didn't seem as motivated. They seemed less clear. Hands off. Hands off. That's what they went with.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah. It feels very dated because one of the speeches was like, you know, he thinks he can put his hands on anything. And I was like, are we really doing Access Hollywood quotes? Are we still on that? It felt dated. It felt sort of tired, perfunctory, maybe. Now there were big crowds. Like, I have no doubt that there are impassioned Democrats out there and that the base wants to get out and be mad at Donald Trump. It does feel a little late and a little tired. I think, as you noted on X, Carol, the time would have been to get everybody out before the voting and then to the voting booths. That would have been. That would have been the way to do the resistance.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, I would just say about that. It was. It's because the media over the weekend was just so excited about these protests. And it was so, like, these protests are, you know, the. The most. Just amazing thing that's ever happened. And they kept referring to them as power. And that's why I was like, you know what's even more powerful than nationwide protests?

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

The voting. The voting.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, the voting is more powerful.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

I think we have one clip from one of these rallies. And look, I'm just using this as sort of a symbol. This young man, I'm not meaning to single him out, but this is just kind of perfect. Here he is asked about why he's there. He's got a big sign that says, Donald Trump is a fascist. So what makes Trump a fascist? What makes Trump a fascist?

[Carol Markowitz]

He does the things without.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah, talk loud. I don't have my mic on. I'm not really.

[Carol Markowitz]

Sorry. He just doesn't. He just does everything he wants and.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

You know, not following laws or, you.

[Carol Markowitz]

Know, he was a.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

He's a convicted felon, you know, that's all I know.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's all he knows. There you go. I think a lot of these people have no idea why they're so angry. I get it. I really do get it. I think that they need something to channel their anger into, and that's what these protests are about. I am worried about what I see as really escalating Violent rhetoric and obviously there's actual violence happening as well. A pro life reporter was punched in the face in Harlem over the weekend. There were some other incidents. A lot of these people are having signs that say 86, 47, 86 means to end. One of them is standing right alongside Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison with this kind of sign. There's a lot of keying and defacing Teslas. All of this is very worrisome and I think that. I understand that Democrats are trying to get their base back to being excited after Democrats have like a 26% approval rating and they're trying to get them to focus on how much they hate Donald Trump to get that, that their numbers up. But they need to bring down this temperature. I think things are really heading in a bad direction with this kind of violent talk.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah, give me, give me clueless guy any day over the guy keying Tesla's. Yeah, you know, there is a lot of that and it will be inevitably downplayed by media even when it results in physical attacks, as it did on a California campus against the Turning Point USA gathering and Booth and against Savannah Craven, who's the activist you were talking about doing man on the street interviews, who was hurt pretty badly. Significantly. She needs. So that will be downplayed, as it always is. Speaking of which, did you hear that the would be assassin of Brett Kavanaugh who did not become a household name because the target was a right leaning conservative jurist instead of a. A liberal one. He plead he pled guilty last week after that attempt. But again, not a huge story.

[Carol Markowitz]

Not a story. Right.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Nor is the fact that people are standing around with 8,647 signs when he's already been attempted assassinated twice and the state of Iran has verified plans to do the same.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's right.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

We're just like real flippant about it.

[Carol Markowitz]

Exactly. I have a column, I think it'll be in this. This episode comes out Tuesday. I think it'll be in Tuesday's New York Post. Not confirmed yet. But also there's a new report by this group called the Network Contagion Research Institute found high numbers of left leaning people find violence to be acceptable. Over 55% of left leaning respondents felt there was some justification for killing President Trump. It's a real powder keg and I think we need to be way more worried about it. Again, these protests, I get it and I understand that there's this pent up anger, but we need to bring down the temperature and Democratic politicians need to be at the forefront of that saying violent rhetoric is not going to be okay. Yeah, no, I'm not either. But it's my hope. I just say what you want, leave the fisticuffs apart, you know, draw the line.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Clearly we're gonna take a short break.

[Carol Markowitz]

And come right back with Normally Bring.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

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[Carol Markowitz]

Like Clorox.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

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[Carol Markowitz]

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach. Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance, and keep an eye on what your kids are spending. With real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk free [e-mail] iheart Our last topic is Megyn Kelly, who I think, you know, we both stand Megyn Kelly, we're both big fans over here, made a comment about women working and how apparently conservative men are not into that idea, which I've heard from lots of women who are like, where are these men who don't want me to work? Where do I get one of these?

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Where's this pool?

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? But you know, I take everything Megan says pretty seriously. So let's roll that clip and discuss it.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Here's what's happening on the right. Young women and I talk to young conservative women all the time about their lives and their goals and, you know, the things that they want. And what's happening is they can't find men who are maybe more conservative. Usually they're looking for somebody who is religious. You know, like they're a lot of conservative women tend to be God, God loving conservatives and they can't find a lot of young men who want to marry a working woman. Now this is an actual problem that's, that's coming up on the right. And to me it's so sad because it's like, how did we get to the point where we were now telling young conservative amazing women that they're not attractive if they also work, if they choose to, let's say, do what I'm doing and what you're doing and like get their voice out there. But I'll stick with me just because I think conservatives listening to this will like the thought of another Megyn Kelly voice up and coming. Well, why wouldn't we want that? Why would we take somebody who's talented in this field and really wants to make a difference and have the messaging to her be, you're really not that valuable unless you give it up and go into the home and only have a family and only raise a family. And not only were you sending her that message, but young men are actually believing that they're actually believing, especially on the right, because like the trad mom has gotten so popular and it's like, no, if we do that, we're not going to have any strong Conservative or right leaning women to provide a role model for younger conservative women who, and there's nothing to apologize for here, don't necessarily want to spend all their 20s and their 30s getting married and having kids or can't. They just weren't able to meet somebody and definitely don't need to be shamed over it.

[Carol Markowitz]

So I agree with her. Obviously we want the next Megyn Kelly and obviously we want conservative women kind of doing their thing. But what I would say is a lot of jobs a are not as flexible as what we do. I am done most days by 3pm it's rare. The day that I'm not picking up my kids from school, the day that I'm not there for dinner, all of that. And look, we live very busy lives, you and I, I know that. But I also am able to set my own schedule, as is Megyn Kelly in a way that a typical working person is not. So I get the argument that men want, I guess again, show me this pool because a lot of women are having trouble finding men like this. But I get the argument that conservative men want the woman that's home when they get home, that has dinner ready, that is with the kids. All of that has kind of a more home based life. But you can have that only if you have the Megyn Kelly type job. It's much harder to have that. My job before media was I was a paralegal. That's not a job that first of all, not super fulfilling. Let's start there. I feel a lot more fulfilled now, but also not flexible at all. And I worked insanely long hours and I wouldn't have been able to be there for my kids every day to pick them up. So I get her argument. But not every job is like ours. And it's, it's tough.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Yeah, I think this is a pendulum swing problem because even conservative men of my age, I've never met one who was like, I must have a woman who stays at home. Like that just was not the message in the 80s and 90s. And the message for us was girl power. Everybody goes out and gets their job. I think it leaned too heavily. And this is the part where the pendulum swings. It leaned too heavily on like, you gotta go get that sweet C suite and do everything that men want and get everything that men want. And it didn't consider, and you see this in polling of women of my generation, that message didn't consider that maybe we don't want the same thing men want. Maybe we want the flexible schedule. Maybe we Want to take five to seven years off while our kids are at home before we get them off to school or even longer and then reenter the workforce later. Right. Those are things that women can want instead of the C suite life. Now the pendulum's been swinging back and I am willing to believe that with that younger cohort of men that there are some religious or manosphered or whatever. The reason is that, say, if she wants to work, that is going to interfere with me wanting to have a family and form a family in the way that I want. Being straightforward about that is one thing. Being strong arming about that is another. Because you might have a couple years before y'all have kids and she would like to do something with those years, earn skills that she can then use later. Right. Strikes me as unfortunate that in a time when we have many more choices than we used to have that the discourse sort of shoves us to the sides again. And it's like you're either doing this hardcore or you're doing this hardcore. And I feel like there's a lot of room in the middle to be able to make choices that even my mom didn't have available to her. Including this flexibility part that is available more often than it ever was in the past.

[Carol Markowitz]

Absolutely. Also, there's the fact that life is long and just because you're a stay at home mom today doesn't mean you're going to be a stay at home mom tomorrow or vice versa. I've been a stay at home mom. I've been a work at home mom, I've been a work outside the home mom. I've done it all. You know, life changes and you shouldn't commit to just, I'm going to be this one thing. Your kids can go off to school after you've been a stay at home mom for a few years and you might find you want to work outside the house or you might find you, they need you more than ever and you don't. So I would just say don't be so rigid about it either way. Like, see where life takes you and see where your economic situation takes you. Anything is really possible.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

And the one thing I would say as a, as a caveat to what I already said, because I want is, is I do think the thing where women are told like, you've got all the time in the world, don't worry about it, you know, you're only 27 or what have you, like, there is actually a time at which it becomes harder. And if it's something if having a family is something you want to prioritize, you should actively prioritize it. You should try to meet somebody who's the right match with that. You should try to meet someone with your values. You should date intentionally. You should think about when you're going to have kids. So I think that part if you're like sort of have a goal in mind but the, the simple solution is not just marry someone who's Perfect when you're 21 and then stay home forever because like a lot of people don't meet somebody when they're 21. I didn't.

[Carol Markowitz]

Sure didn't.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Doesn't work out that way. So you gotta, I think Megan's right that like let's, let's reflect the fact that a lot of people make a lot of different choices for a lot of different reasons and you can't be stuck in one track forever.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. We love you, Megan. You're the best. Thanks for joining us on Normally. Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening. And when things get weird, act normally.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent where money means more. Connect with [e-mail] Clorox Centiva smells like.

[Carol Markowitz]

Grapefruit.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Cleans like Clorox.

[Carol Markowitz]

And feels like y.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

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[Carol Markowitz]

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[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

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