Normally Podcast: Young Conservatives, Fading Obama Influence, and the End of a Trend

Summary

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Normally Podcast: Young Conservatives, Fading Obama Influence, and the End of a Trend
Date: October 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Normally with Mary Katharine Ham and Carol Markowitz explores three central themes:

• The fallout over offensive rhetoric among Young Republicans
• The waning influence of Barack Obama and a profile of new progressive contenders
• A discussion on whether the "trans contagion" and related youth identification trends are truly receding

The hosts provide sharp commentary, critique the double standards in political discourse, and examine cultural and political trends with their trademark blend of seriousness and humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Young Republicans’ Edgelord Scandal

(Starts at 04:24)

Context

• Politico published a story on offensive, racist, and shocking messages shared by Young Republicans on a group chat.
• The conversation rapidly became a flashpoint, with media tying the scandal to broader Republican culture.

Breakdown

• Edge-lording and Pendulum Swings
  Mary Katharine Ham notes, “We’ve left the time of the PC woke flag throwing, which is in many cases good for discourse... And then you go to a point where the pendulum swings, where you’re just trying to shock people as much as possible.” (04:35)

• Double Standards in Political Fallout
  The hosts point out that Republican leaders immediately demanded resignations, while Democrats facing similar scandals hold the line and resist calls for accountability.

  "The double standard is this applies to all Republicans and every Republican lawmaker will be asked about it ... Versus, by the way, these guys aren't running for office." – Mary Katharine Ham (07:09)

• Holding One’s Own Side Accountable

  “I don’t care that we’re not supposed to criticize our own side. I’ve said again and again that Republicans, conservatives do criticize their own side all the time. And this is just more evidence... I don’t stand with these people.” – Carol Markowitz (08:24)

• Severity and Condemnation
  While the hosts condemn the language used in the chat, they highlight media attempts to conflate private dumb behavior with official party policy, and contrast it with actual Democratic candidates facing serious allegations who aren't being held accountable in the same way.

Notable Quotes

• “Don’t be trash.” – Mary Katharine Ham (08:23)
• “Groiper losers are not my side. If I want to call them losers, I’ll call them losers and it will not cost us a single election.” (12:06, quoting @bancheredstate)

Takeaway

The hosts emphasize that toxic behavior deserves consequences, but spotlight how media narratives selectively amplify scandals based on political alignment.

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2. Obama’s Diminishing Influence & Progressive Successors

(Starts at 18:21)

Barack Obama’s Podcast Appearance & Legacy

• Obama’s recent appearance on Marc Maron’s podcast prompts the hosts to question his ongoing relevance and the achievements of his presidency.
• Ham recalls:
  “I am sort of amazed by how little people listen to him now. And I think that that's of his own doing. He made himself irrelevant.” (19:52)
• Markowitz echoes disappointment:
  “When we look back at his presidency, other than Obamacare, which is largely a disaster, what are his accomplishments?” (20:35)

The Irrelevance Factor

• The general sentiment is that after leaving office, Obama embraced the ceremonial aspects of ex-presidency but did little of substance.
• Ham on Obama’s style vs. substance:
  “He fools himself into thinking it wasn’t divisive. Like, I think he’s still living under the illusion that he was a uniting force.” (21:34)

Biden, Trump, and the Israel Deal

• The hosts dismiss revisionist claims that Biden, not Trump, was responsible for the Middle East peace deal.
  • Markowitz: “Joe Biden was a potato. He could have never done this.” (24:14)
• They cite the essential difference in approaches: Biden’s proposed hostage deal barely resembled the accord reached under Trump because it required Israel to fully withdraw from Gaza before hostages’ release.

Emergence of New Progressive Figures

• Zoran Mamdani's rise in New York mayoral politics is dissected, described as “the new Barack Obama.”
  • The media’s celebratory 16-page New York Times profile critiques for lacking critical analysis.
    • Ham: “If you do a 16-page profile on someone, you didn't find anything you might want to just like criticize a tiny bit. That's a problem.” (26:13)
• The hosts raise concerns about Mamdani's inability to execute on lofty ideas and predict inevitable disappointment and possible scapegoating of minorities if progressive policies fail.

Notable Quotes

• “The guy with a smile doesn’t always get it done.” – Mary Katharine Ham (26:43)
• “What does he fill kind of the gap with ... maybe riling up people against Jews. And that's a very common strategy through history among failed politicians.” – Carol Markowitz (26:49)

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3. The Decline of "Trans Contagion" Among Kids

(Starts at 32:12)

Overview of New Data

• Eric Kaufman's research reveals a sharp decrease in youth identifying as non-binary, with numbers falling 50% from their 2023 peak.
• Markowitz bluntly states:
  “Non binary is not a thing. And the fact that it spiked so high in 2023 ... that's fantastic.” (32:12)
• The hosts interpret this as a small cultural victory, hinting at a "vibe shift" away from identity-based social contagion among teens.

Skepticism About Real Change

• Markowitz cautions against overstating the decline:
  “I don’t actually think that the trans contagion is over. And I think we should be really careful about taking these stats to mean that.” (34:31)

• She argues that once someone adopts a trans identity, they are unlikely to self-describe as non-binary, so the real problem may persist beneath the surface.

• Ham adds:
  “This kind of affirmation and the need to get it out of some of these professional circles speaks to the need to get it out of these professional circles ... I would just like my kid to be able to talk about normal stuff that’d be great.” (37:01)

Affirmation in Therapy

• They critique the rapid adoption of affirmation-based therapies for kids dealing with gender dysphoria, contrasting past approaches to other youth issues like anorexia and self-harm.
  • Markowitz: “The affirming is what's driving this, really.” (36:08)

Notable Quotes

• “It’s the easiest one, right? ... If I were a teenager right now, and I had the kind of power that comes with declaring yourself non binary ... I would 100% be into it.” – Carol Markowitz (33:40)

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Young Republican Scandal:
  “Don’t be trash.” – Mary Katharine Ham (08:23)
  “Groiper losers are not my side. If I want to call them losers, I’ll call them losers...” (12:06, via @bancheredstate)

• On Obama’s Legacy:
  "He fools himself into thinking it wasn’t divisive." – Mary Katharine Ham (21:34)
  “What did he think was going to happen after he left the presidency? … Name something he said other than ‘if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.’” – Carol Markowitz (20:35)

• On Declining Non-Binary Identification:
  “Non binary is not a thing. And the fact that it spiked so high in 2023 ... that's fantastic.” – Carol Markowitz (32:12)

• On Therapy and Affirmation:
  “The affirming is what's driving this, really.” – Carol Markowitz (36:08)
  “I would just like my kid to be able to talk about normal stuff that’d be great.” – Mary Katharine Ham (37:01)

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Important Timestamps

• 04:24 — Young Republicans scandal discussion begins
• 08:23 — “Don’t be trash.” (Ham)
• 12:06 — “Groiper losers are not my side...” (Ham quoting X user)
• 18:21 — Segment on Obama and current progressives
• 19:52 — Ham on Obama’s relevance
• 20:35 — Markowitz critiques Obama’s accomplishments
• 24:14 — “Joe Biden was a potato...” (Markowitz)
• 26:13 — Critiquing the NYT profile of Zoran Mamdani
• 32:12 — Segment on decline in non-binary identification
• 36:08 — Critique of affirmation therapies

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Episode Tone and Takeaways

• The conversation retains a skeptical, straight-talking, and witty tone.
• The hosts are unafraid to criticize their own side, but are equally vociferous about double standards and media bias.
• They encourage listeners to demand accountability, scrutinize media narratives, and remain vigilant about trends that affect youth.

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Summary for Listeners

This episode offers a lively, in-depth look at the latest controversies and cultural shifts in American politics, focusing on internal Republican debates, Obama’s declining cultural impact, and the tentative decline of youth gender identity trends. The hosts challenge comfortable narratives and encourage a pragmatic, honest assessment of both allies and opponents. Perfect for listeners who want politics and culture analyzed with both humor and clarity.

Transcript

[Mary Katharine Ham]

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[Mary Katharine Ham]

Hey, guys. We are back on Normaliz, the show with normalist takes for when the news gets weird. I'm Mary Kathryn Ham.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I'm Carol Markowitz. It is very hard, Mary Katherine, to get back into regular news. All I want to do is like, watch hostage videos and read stories and hear about families being reunited. But like, you know, the world moves on and that's a good thing, but I'm sort of unprepared for it.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah, I, I'm the same way. It's, it's so rare that you get a just unvarnished good story like 20 live hostages coming home. And we've, you and I have been through the Ben Gurion airport. We've seen those posters on the sides of the moving side walkway there. We've seen people tear down posters all over the US and it is gratifying to see people.

[Carol Markowitz]

It really is.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

By the way, a programming note. If you want to listen to me on the Fifth Column with Matt Welch and Camille and Michael Moynihan, you can do so. And we talk about this as well. So you can get more of that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Excellent.

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[Carol Markowitz]

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[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

All right, let's get into it. Young Republicans. What are you people doing on a giant group text saying dumb shit, what are you doing?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I mean, so this is, as I said, this is an example of how you edge lord yourself into disgrace, which is this thing where, you know, we've left the time of the PC woke flag throwing. Right. Which is in many cases good for discourse because you're not afraid to say some things.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And then, and then you go to a point where the pendulum swings, where you're just trying to shock people as much as possible. Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I didn't think that everything was the same. I mean, people say things on private group chats that they might not say publicly. I actually don't think that you should. I think that you should be who you are on group chats, who you are in, in the real world as well. But there is this story. It's in Politico. It's about young Republicans in various places saying terrible things on a group chat. Now, you know, I have to say that my first instinct, I read the story before it became like a story story and I, I felt it was a little bit ridiculous because in the piece, of course, who do they blame this rhetoric on? They say the private rhetoric isn't happening in a vacuum. It comes amid a widespread coarsening of the broader political discourse. And it is as incendiary and racially offensive tropes from the right become increasingly common in public debate. Last month, Trump posted an AI generated video that showed House Minority Leader Joaquin Jeffries in a sombrero beside Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, whose fabricated remarks were about trading free health care for immigrant votes. A false long running GOP trope. The sombrero meme has been widely used to mock Democrats as the government shutdown wears on. Yeah, there's a direct line for, from the sombrero AI picture to saying Hitler is good and using the N word like spare me. You know, this is.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

So this is the double standard, right? Is that, is that when these private chats, which by the way, are by adults, I don't want to minimize it by saying they're kid, they're young Republicans, but they're adults.

[Carol Markowitz]

Sure. Young, Young Republicans can be as old as like 39, I believe.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yes, yes. And also I, I should note importantly that the Young Republicans national immediately condemned this in a asked everyone to resign from any position they held in their local or state chapters. So that is good because imposing that consequence will deter such behavior in the future. But the double standard is this applies to all Republicans and every Republican lawmaker will be asked about it, of course. Versus, by the way, these guys aren't running for office.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yep. They're nobodies, really.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Versus. And like, I agree they should not be in leadership positions. We should not let them have those. Versus the Democrat AG nominee in Virginia. By the way, this story is designed to counter the damage caused by that story, however, and this is a distinction worth making. He's running for office, right. Currently. And almost everyone, I think everyone in the Democratic Party has declined to ask for him to step aside. So I think they've, I think this story actually doesn't reflect well because it is, it is revealing the double standard where Republicans walked away from these guys and they haven't walked away from him.

[Carol Markowitz]

Absolutely. But you know what they're going to say is, well, JD Vance, he tweeted, this is far worse than anything said in a college group chat, referring to the J. Jones tweets and the guy who said it could become the AG of Virginia. I refused to join the pearl clutching when powerful people call for political violence. I understand this response. This is not my response. I am disgusted by those texts and I think people should be held accountable. When people were celebrating Charlie Kirk's death, I thought to myself, I don't want this person to be my dentist or teacher.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Don't be trash.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. I feel the same way about the people on these texts. And I don't care that we're not supposed to criticize our own side. I've said again and again that Republicans, conservatives do criticize their own side all the time. And this is just more evidence of that where we do say, I don't stand with these people. And I think that's not a bad thing. I think I get JD's impulse to say, I'm not throwing these people under the bus. You guys can't throw Jay Jones under the bus. And he's right. But that's not my impulse.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I have to. Yeah, the, the argument from him is we don't, we don't just take unilateral Ls while they take no Ls over this guy. Except how much of an L is it? Like, are these people valuable? Are they people who can entice new people into the party? Right. If you are engaged in a private chat that is nonetheless full of a lot of people who you might, by the way, have bitter political rivalries and jockeying for political power positions in the future, and you're doing this, you have shown yourself to have a certain amount of bad judgment that will not allow you to rise and shouldn't allow you to rise. Right. So I, I think I understand where people come from when they say that, because, I mean, honestly, they're right. They're not going to jettison J. Jones, they're going to tweet through it, they're going to campaign through it. And the people who don't disavow J. Jones will then tell you. And who, by the way, did zero stories on the Israel Palestine deal accomplished by President Trump will then tell you, this is the most important story in the world for like four days.

[Carol Markowitz]

And we don't believe you. Yeah.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah. So by the way, I should note in the Virginia AG race that Jason Miaris, who is the Republican running against Jay Jones, has put out a pretty clever ad that basically says, like she says, you can make your own choice. Maybe you should make your own choice. Right? So, because she said in the in the debate.

[Carol Markowitz]

Like she beat Abigail Spamberger.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah. Excuse me. Abigail Spamberger, the Democrat running for governor in not disavowing Jay Jones, basically said, well, everyone's running their own individual race. So he turned that into an ad and said, it's an individual race. Take a look at me. So I think that was pretty clever of him. And there, there are likely people in Virginia who would undervote or switch sides for that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. I am just, I don't know, I find that this, it's both sides of this. Right. Where I don't like at all that any of this commentary is being tied to the right. And I just refuse to participate, you know, or believe any of that. But also this idea that this is my side and I need to stay quiet just is appalling to me. And why it's so bad that Spamberger won't denounce him. The whole your side thing, it shouldn't apply to I want children to die. And you know, what the Young Republicans said in their chats is nowhere near that, if you want to be real about it. And I still don't think that I need to be offending people.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Nowhere near legally actionable threats, which is actually what Jones got very close to.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

This was, this was, excuse my language, shit posting gas chamber stuff, stuff about African Americans, watermelons, like, just disgusting, designed to disgust people.

[Carol]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And yeah, like, I don't think you're bringing a bunch of people into this party like that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. Banchee red state.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And I don't expect political capital on you.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, yes, exactly. So, Bunchy red state. An account I like very much on X said groiper, losers are not my side. If I want to call them losers, I'll call them losers and it will not cost us a single election. But I'm also not going to waste time on total nobodies who have been forced to resign and who will never be heard from again. That's where I am on this same. Yeah, you pointed out that the Young Republicans issued a comment and they said, we are appalled by the vile and inexcusable language revealed in the political article published today. Behavior is disgraceful, unbecoming, stands in direct opposition to the movement. All involved must resign immediately. I mean, what more could they say?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Over to you Virginia Democrats or national Democrats. It will be interesting to see how many Republicans in the halls of Congress are asked about this versus Democrats being asked about Jay Jones.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Even though he's running for office.

[Carol Markowitz]

You know, as we're going to air. There's a story in Pirate Wires which I haven't read yet, but there's a long tweet about it. Heather Cox Richardson is apparently this big leftist voice.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

They point out she's the biggest substack that exists, right?

[Carol Markowitz]

More subscribers than Jimmy Kimmel has. And they say every night she tells her 2.7 million followers that America's sliding into authoritarianism, Trump is a dictator, whatever. But they also say when it was revealed that Charlie Kirk's assassin was not the right wing extremist she claimed he was, she never corrected the record. When Biden's debate performance was so bad, the New York Times called for him to drop out. Richardson claimed he thoroughly proved his competence when an assassin murdered Minnesota lawmakers. It was horrific. But when Luigi Mangione assassinated UnitedHealthcare CEO, it was a moral Protestant. And so spare me the hand wringing and the pearl clutching because this is the most famous substack of all time.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

So their dis, their disinformation is good, Carol.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? I know.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

That's the difference. All right, we will be back on normally in a moment with some stories about Obama. How's he doing these days?

[Carol Markowitz]

Poorly. He's doing poorly.

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[Mary Katharine Ham]

I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts Hearsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

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This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

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I can see you as a Mr. Darcy. You got a little call in Firth.

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[Mary Katharine Ham]

All right, we are back on normally with a little bit about Barack Obama and the new Barack Obama who is Mamdani in New York running for the Mayor's slot. But first, the original Barack Obama who appeared on Marc Maron's podcast this week. Marin is drawing to a close his 15 year run of podcasting. He is a comedian but also political commentator and it was a really big deal. I remember when Obama appeared on his podcast in 2015ish because that was like the new frontier, new things. So he's capping it off as well. And he had some thoughts about what has come to pass since he left office. Let's listen to a little bit.

[Carol]

I mean, what was unusual for me was obviously a lot of what I represented, a lot of what Michelle and I had tried to project, the values, our thinking about America.

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My successor seemed to represent the opposite.

[Carol]

Right. Not seemed.

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Did.

[Carol]

Yeah. And so I think there was a lot of anger, loss, a lot of sadness.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah.

[Carol]

Some fear among a big chunk of the country.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

He seems frustrated, Carol.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, he's, he doesn't like that anybody else got to be president after him.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I am sort of amazed by how little people listen to him now. And I think that that's of his own doing. He made himself irrelevant. I think he did a lot of damage while he was president and since he's been president, which I want to, I want to congratulate myself on this one. I said while he was running for president and while he was president, this man wants to be an ex president. He wants to live well. He wants to give speeches. He wants to be congratulated for like, I don't know, observing elections in other countries and lecturing the United States of America and, and hang out in Martha's Vineyard. That's what he wants to do. He's going to be great at it. And that part he has embraced.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. And I mean, I guess he has some behind the scenes roles at the, you know, in the Democratic Party, but he has been so largely irrelevant. And I can't, you know, when we look back at his presidency, other than Obamacare, which is largely a disaster, what are his accomplishments? And you know, people at the time even said, oh, but he's such a good speaker, he's such a good orator. And I'm always like, name something he said. Name something he said other than if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor, which turned out to be a lie. So I'm thoroughly unimpressed with this guy. Nowhere near as impressed as he is with himself. And it's just funny because what did he think was going to happen after he left the presidency? What did he think the next Republican was going to do? Led in such a way that was so abrasive to the opposite side from him. When he said, all I need is a phone and a pen, what did he think everybody was going to do after him?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Right. I think he. He fools himself into thinking it wasn't divisive. Like, I think he's still living under the illusion that he was a uniting force.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

While he was, like, you know, calling out the Supreme Court justices sitting in front of him at a State of the Union address, while he was calling out Republican congressional leaders whose votes he needed on various things while they're sitting on stage with him, It. He wasn't unifying, and I don't think beyond giving speeches, he really was understood what the job was. And as a result, the thing that he passed Obamacare has not. Was not executed well. It doesn't live up to its promises. You can still do polling where people are like, oh, I guess that free thing you gave us is fine. But if you start, like, picking in the details, people are like, no, this didn't give me what I wanted. I feel like he makes himself irrelevant. Every statement is like, what world are you living in? And this felt very much like you're living in 2015. This is just a replay of 2015 and you trying to groke what happened and how you possibly could be losing this race or Hillary losing this race, but you know what I'm saying.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, same thing. Speaking of irrelevant, the Joe Biden people have been working overtime to say that it was actually Joe Biden's peace deal that the Trump administration enacted in the Middle east, but Joe Biden, like, totally just didn't want to do it. That's really what happened here. He was doing other things, and, you know, his peace deal, it was just. It was really. It was Trump's fault. It was Trump and Netanyahu's fault that.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

They got together and said, no, no, no.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right. That you know, this guy, Keith Edwards. I don't know who this is, but apparently a lot of people do, because they were like, why are you giving this person attention? And I said, oh, I don't know who this is. But he tweeted. He had a very big tweet. Joe Biden had a peace deal in place. But then Netanyahu and Trump met in Mar a Lago and decided that keeping the war going would benefit them both. Ten months later, they're signing the exact deal Biden brokered. I was on with your bestie Guy Benson yesterday, and we talked about how some of the things that have happened Since Joe Biden was president. Like, for example, the 12 Day War with Iran and the attack inside Qatar and things like that actually led to the peace deal. And Joe Biden would have never been able to get that done. I, you know, tell. Tell this to a normie in your life and they're going to respond as the normies in my life did with Joe Biden was a potato. He could have never done this.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yes. Yeah, it's, it's just obviously incorrect. And I would also add this important detail, and pardon me on pronunciation, but Lahav Harkov, who is a journalist in, in Israel, she puts the order of operations into perspective, which is the Biden deal for Israel to fully withdraw was for Israel to fully withdraw from Gaza and only then for all of the hostages to be released. Hamas rejected it. Israel is still deployed in most of Gaza, she notes, and we have all the living hostages at home. That is a huge difference. That is not the same deal. That is the deal that Israel goes. Why would we do that?

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Because there isn't a guarantee. And it goes really badly. And by the way, you get all of those horrific, torturous ceremonies of handing over because the Red Cross ain't gonna do nothing to stop them.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

By the way, can we just once again say the Red Cross is trash for the way it acted the entire time? Unbelievable.

[Carol Markowitz]

More pointless than Europe. And that's really saying something.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Ooh. Okay, one more thing. In this section, I want to add. The new Obamas rise. So this is Zoran Mamdani, who's running for mayor in New York. He is ahead by double digits over Andrew Cuomo. A lot of that has to do with the fact that Democrats just couldn't muster anyone better than Andrew Cuomo. I would have been an Adams gal.

[Carol Markowitz]

If I had the choice so fast. Yeah, but me, you and like 8% of New Yorkers.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I know, I know. So that's happening. And the New York Times did a 16 page profile on him. And I read, I think I want to say like 90% of it. I have a few more paragraphs to go, but there is not one dang interesting, revealing, like, negative moment in this from the perspective of the writer. Like, if you do a 16 page profile on someone, you didn't find anything, you might want to just like criticize a tiny bit. That's a problem.

[Carol Markowitz]

Very Obama esque.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yes. And the question that keeps coming to me as I'm reading through the profile is like, yes, so he has all these ideas, but he doesn't know how to execute them is what you're saying.

[Carol Markowitz]

Any of them?

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah, any of them. And a lot of them defy economics. So you're going to end up on the other side of this, which the Democratic Social of America who endorsed him have already pointed out, where they're like, oh, what if he wins and then he tries to enact these things and A, he doesn't have the power to, or B, he can't and then we have to pay the price.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

And it's like, yeah, maybe think about that. Yeah, gonna be an issue. The guy with a smile doesn't always get it done. Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

And you know, look, I. The other concern is when he inevitably can't get any of his policies done or they're a total failure. If he ends up opening a one grocery store run by the government and it is the failure it's been in other places. What does he fill kind of the gap with? And I think when he is running for UNWRA over the weekend, I think a lot of Jews should think about the fact that it will be maybe riling up people against Jews. And that's a very common strategy through history among failed politicians, which he inevitably will be.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I would say that there's one sentence in this that is accidentally revealing that suggests that, in which he, the writer contends that this is the one issue he will not compromise on. And it is Israel, Palestine, even though like he's running an affordability campaign. But this is the one issue where he can't even say, yeah, globalized, the Intifada is bad. People shouldn't say that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right? Yep. He's gonna lean right into it. And there's a reason for that. So we'll be right back with more on normally. And is the trans contagion finally breaking among kids? We'll see. Be right back.

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[Mary Katharine Ham]

I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

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[Carol Markowitz]

We are back on normally where a few days ago a researcher posted a graph that seemed very promising. Eric Kaufman is a professor of politics and he looked at some studies out of Andover Brown and from the fire. Org. Part of it is that there's a collapse in people who say they are non binary. And that's great because non binary is not a thing. And the fact that it spiked so high in 2023, it's about 50% down from that the, the peak numbers, that's fantastic. Of course, the fact that anybody still thinks that they're neither gender is ridiculous, but we'll take it for now.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah, no, it's. It seems like a small victory at least. And my thought would be that this suggests that the pipeline to trans identity is closing. Yeah, that the social contagion and those early stages where people are using this as sort of like a, like a intersectional politics pass.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Oh, I'm just like a suburban white girl, but I'm non binary. That is losing its cachet, as it should. And that fewer people in the future will be drawn into actual bad, bad situations.

[Carol Markowitz]

I mean, look, it's the easiest one, right? If I always say, if I were a teenager right now, and I had the kind of power that comes with declaring yourself non binary and making up your pronouns every day and having every adult in your life follow it, I would 100% be into it. So the easiest one, the one that you don't have to do anything is, is falling off and that's great. Uh, he also says that non conforming sexual identity, queer questioning, et cetera, is also in sharp decline. Gay and lesbian are stable, while heterosexual has rebounded by around 10 points since 2023. Yeah, it's the, it's the vibe shift, you know, But I, we're recording this as I'm writing the piece, so I think I have a piece in the New York Post today on this. How I don't actually think that the trans contagion is over. And I think we should be really careful about taking the. These stats to mean that.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Right.

[Carol Markowitz]

Part of what Eric says is he thinks that Trans people would be more likely to say that they're non binary, and therefore the non binary numbers declining means that trans is declining. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think when you're in the trans contagion, non binary means something very, very specific to you, and you are absolutely not that. And your identity is so fixed in those words that I don't think a trans person would pick non binary. And that's what my column today in the New York Post will end up arguing.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Yeah, I think we should be wary about any of this stuff sort of falling off the cliff. I do think there's a vibe shift, but you want to be careful about the data. And there's certainly people who are still very invested in creating more kids who can go into this pipeline. And I just, the damage that has been done thus far is just shocking. And I know when we were kids, the social contagion of the day, neither of them good or cutting, and anorexia, and I would take those over this one, this one is, yeah, this one.

[Carol Markowitz]

Seems a lot more permanent. Those were both terrible, obviously, but they were seemed more temporary than getting drugs and changing your.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Well, and importantly, the most important thing about them is how we responded to them. Yeah, we didn't respond to them as if they were good and enlightened and a choice. We responded to them like, girl, you got to get yourself some therapy. Right?

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. When you went to the therapist, it wasn't like, oh, this is good, and I'm going to affirm this. Um, I, you know, I think that that's a big part of all of this, that the affirming is what's driving this, really. If you go to a therapist and you say, I'm mixed up and I'm confused and I think I'm the opposite gender. And your therapist says, no, that's good, you are that opposite gender. I, I, it, it leads you down a path that is hard to get off.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

Well, and we've talked about this before, and it concerns me for, for lots of kids. Is that it? This kind of affirmation and the need to get it out of some of these professional circles speaks to the need to get it out of these professional circles is if your kids do need some kind of therapy, you cannot be assured that that person isn't going to decide that your kid's issue is that they're actually in a diff. In the wrong body.

[Carol]

That's right.

[Mary Katharine Ham]

I would just like my kid to be able to talk about normal stuff that'd be great.

[Carol Markowitz]

Absolutely. Well, thank you for joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get in touch with us@ normallythepodmail.com thanks for listening and when things get weird, act normally.

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This is an iHeart podcast.