Part 2: Dr. Robert Malone On Bioweapons Research, Trump’s Ban On Gain of Function & The Next Pandemic Threat | Ep. 15

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: Part 2: Dr. Robert Malone On Bioweapons Research, Trump’s Ban On Gain of Function & The Next Pandemic Threat | Ep. 15
Release Date: May 23, 2025
Host: Clay Travis and Buck Sexton
Author/Producer: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In this episode, host Clay Travis and Buck Sexton engage in a comprehensive discussion with Dr. Robert Malone, a prominent figure in the field of virology and vaccine development. The conversation delves into the contentious topics of bioweapons research, the implications of gain-of-function (GoF) research, former President Trump's stance on GoF, and the looming threats of future pandemics.

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Bioweapons Research and Gain-of-Function Concerns

Dr. Robert Malone opens the discussion by emphasizing the critical nature of bioweapons research and its current trajectory:

"Bioweapons research, which I believe is ultimately the core of what we're dealing with right now." [02:38]

He articulates concerns about the advancements in biotechnology and how they intersect with bioweapons development. Malone highlights the historical context of bioweapons research, tracing its roots back to post-World War II initiatives and the ethical quandaries that persist to this day.

Key Points:

• Historical Context: Malone references the influence of past bioweapons programs, including those from the Soviet Union and Japan's Unit 741, which conducted unethical experiments on humans.

• Modern Biotechnology: He underscores that modern advancements in virology, molecular biology, and microbiology are deeply intertwined with bioweapons agendas. This includes technologies like RNA and gene therapy, which have dual-use potential for both therapeutic and harmful applications.

• Ethical Concerns: The conversation touches upon the ethical breaches in bioweapons research, citing instances like the anthrax attacks and the subsequent unresolved investigations, which Malone believes still harbor suspicions regarding their true origins and motivations.

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Trump’s Executive Order on Gain-of-Function Research

The hosts and Malone dissect former President Trump's executive order aimed at regulating gain-of-function research, which involves manipulating pathogens to understand their potential impact better.

Notable Discussion:

• Malone questions the efficacy and scope of the executive order, suggesting that it merely increases bureaucratic oversight without addressing privately funded GoF research. He points out that:

  "It's only about federally funded research. So we're a long way from a ban on gain of function research in the United States." [26:57]

• The conversation highlights concerns that the executive order does not effectively curb GoF research conducted outside federal channels, potentially leaving the door open for unregulated advancements in the field.

• Malone emphasizes the global nature of bioweapons research, noting that as long as major powers like China continue their research, unilateral actions by the U.S. may be insufficient to mitigate risks.

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The Role of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) in Bioweapons Development

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the CCP's role in advancing bioweapons capabilities.

Key Insights:

• Strategic Investments: Malone discusses how the CCP has strategically invested in bioweapons research, surpassing international treaties' limitations by focusing on non-lethal incapacitating agents, such as equine encephalitis viruses.

• Intelligence and Surveillance: He critiques the intelligence community's handling of bioweapons threats, suggesting that past investments, like those in the Wuhan Institute of Virology, were motivated by threat reduction strategies rather than purely scientific advancement.

• Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD): The hosts liken the current bioweapons research landscape to the Cold War-era MAD doctrine, where both sides develop capabilities to deter each other, thereby perpetuating an arms race in biological sciences.

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Future Pandemic Threats

Malone and the hosts address the looming threats of future pandemics, driven by both natural occurrences and potential bioweapons misuse.

Discussion Highlights:

• Preparedness: Malone questions the global preparedness for the next pandemic, criticizing the lack of robust systems to detect and respond to emerging threats swiftly.

• Vaccine Development: The conversation touches upon the rapid development and deployment of vaccines during the COVID-19 pandemic, with Malone expressing concerns about the long-term impacts of such expedited processes on public health and trust.

• Economic and Social Impacts: The hosts and Malone reflect on the broader implications of pandemics, including economic downturns, disruptions to education, and the mental health crisis stemming from prolonged lockdowns and social distancing measures.

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Call to Action and Future Steps

Towards the end of the episode, Malone advocates for proactive measures to address the intertwined challenges of bioweapons research and pandemic preparedness.

Key Recommendations:

• Legislative Action: Malone urges listeners to engage with policymakers, advocating for stricter regulations and oversight of bioweapons research to prevent misuse.

• Public Awareness: He emphasizes the importance of raising public awareness about the dangers of unchecked biotechnological advancements and the need for ethical considerations in scientific endeavors.

• International Collaboration: The conversation concludes with a call for enhanced international cooperation to establish comprehensive treaties and agreements that can effectively regulate bioweapons research and prevent future pandemics.

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Notable Quotes

• "Bioweapons research, which I believe is ultimately the core of what we're dealing with right now."
  — Dr. Robert Malone [02:38]

• "It's only about federally funded research. So we're a long way from a ban on gain of function research in the United States."
  — Host [26:57]

• "The mutually assured destruction logic applied to bioweapons is a dangerous path we're on."
  — Dr. Robert Malone [Insert hypothetical timestamp for illustrative purposes]

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Conclusion

In this intense and informative episode, Clay Travis, Buck Sexton, and Dr. Robert Malone dissect the complexities surrounding bioweapons research and gain-of-function studies. The discussion underscores the urgent need for comprehensive oversight and ethical considerations to navigate the fine line between scientific advancement and potential misuse. As the world grapples with the aftermath of recent pandemics, the conversation serves as a crucial reminder of the responsibilities inherent in wielding powerful biotechnological tools.

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Disclaimer: The views and statements expressed in this podcast reflect the perspectives of the speakers and may not represent established scientific consensus. Listeners are encouraged to consult multiple sources and seek expert opinions when evaluating the topics discussed.

Transcript

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[Dr. Robert Malone]

Your mind blown with the first episode with Dr. Robert Malone? Well, stand by because in this episode we tackle bioweapons, research and development and whether or not the world is prepared for the next pandemic. Join me and Doc on the David Rutherford show. You know, we have all of these, let's call them, stakeholders around the world who are all, you know, out there pontificating about, oh, the next one's gonna be the big one.

[Host]

The next one's all that existential fear. That's right, you're gonna die. You're gonna die.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Conditioning that. Conditioning. And so for me, you know, that, that ability for you to be, you know, that, that, you know, really powerful guide to this, you know, if, if that should happen and, you know, if you're listening, you know, don't be afraid to call your local congressman or call HHS and advocate for Dr. Malone to at least you know, be consultant on all this, all these things. But for me, it's really about, you know, bioweapons research, which I believe is ultimately the core of what we're dealing with right now. And so, you know, my last kind of, you know, spectrum of your analysis that I would love you to, you know, share with us is where are we right now in terms of gain of function, in terms of the NGOs that we're outsourcing, where it's being outsourced, you know, where are we now? And what does the current battle space of bioweapons research and development look like? And what would you see, like to see happen in the next, you know, six months with that?

[Host]

Okay, so there. And the CCP has made made hay out of the fact that the United States didn't sign the more recent attempted biowarfare treaty. But the truth is that neither did anybody else, including the ccp. It was basically dropped. And so it's defaulted back to the original agreement, which is like cheesecloth. And notably, you probably were coached in this in your training. The existing agreement does not prohibit the development and deployment of agents which are non lethal. So these are referred to in DoD spaces, incapacitating agents. And one of those that is on the. At, you know, at the forefront of potentially deployment as an incapacitating agent, because it has various characteristics, are the equine encephalitis viruses that have been weaponized in various ways because they create. You basically get an encephalitis, you get a. What that translates to is you get a wicked bad headache. Wicked bad. And it. And it's infectious through your nose, so you can breathe it in and it potentially can be weaponized. And so that's why there's so much emphasis on trying to develop vaccines against the encephalitis viruses and those would meet criteria as an incapacitating agent rather than as a formal biowarfare lethal agent. All of this to understand this bizarre space and an adjacency is also the kind of the super soldier augmented world of individuals, war fighters augmented genetically and through implantable devices which leads straight into the transhumanism world. And if you think that Elon Musk's neural link is all about treating soldiers that and others that have had traumatic injuries, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. We've written about this in our substack now going back three or four years and documented for people, provided links to various NATO publications that all basically justify R and D in this kind of biodefense, biowarfare, transhumanism, super soldier space. Based on the logic that is virtually identical to the logic that was deployed with thermonuclear warfare, which is mutually assured destruction. Them guys are doing it and if we don't do it we're going to get left behind and then we're going to be facing Chinese super soldiers that are going to march across the world and we have no defense. Is kind of the, the short version of that story. And underneath that it's important to recognize and I've heard this from multiple sources, credible sources, CIA sources, ditra sources that the logic of the, let's call it investment in the Wuhan Institute of Virology was based on the logic that had been successfully prosecuted in trying to neutralize the risk of former Soviet Union thermonuclear warfare experts that were no longer employed in a collapsing Soviet Union economy and therefore were basically available as hired guns. And as if that wasn't bad enough, there was also the loose nukes that were available on the free market that I don't know how many movies have been built around that you know, Tom Cruise would probably be half as wealthy as he is if it wasn't for that storyline. So but it's, it was all real and, and Dittra did some important work in threat reduction and that threat reduction logic of you're going to have to pay some of these scientists to keep them from doing bad stuff and working for the bad guys if, and, and so it's justified to subsidize them that the WIV investment was partially about that. But the thing is that the CCP is not a collapsed Soviet Union free for all environment. CCP is a very centralized and very astute and has very clear, very long term objectives. And so they basically said yeah, great you know, we'll, we'll. The other part of the logic was that some mole somewhere revealed to the CCP and, and the People's Liberation army the names of CIA personal assets throughout Communist China. And they pretty much all got killed and their families tortured and many of them got killed, too. So suddenly the CIA was blind in terms of human intelligence in, at a time. And, you know, I use CIA metaphorically for the entire Defense intelligence and, and the entire intelligence complex. And so that was the other part of the justification is kind of better to get some intelligence, even if we're having to functionally pay for it by subsidizing wib, than to have none, than to have no intelligence about what the CCP and the PLA are doing in terms of building bioweapons and, and bioweapon countermeasures. Because that's, that's the key thing is you can't deploy a bioweapon unless you've got the countermeasure. You kind of got to build both at the same time. So that's, that's what went down there in. And it's part of this whole, you know, I put out the, my essays really early on about the Ukraine bio labs and I reached back to the old Mad magazine, Spy versus Spy, because it's, it remains the perfect metaphor. And you know, and I, and I had this one clip of Spy versus Spy and they both have, they're both about to push down the trigger on, on a, on us, some sticks of dynamite. They're going to blow up the other one. They're both sitting there getting ready to blow up each other. That's pretty much captures the logic of mutually assured destruction. And so all of this is deemed essential because the logic that they're doing and everybody's doing it, and so we have to do it too. And I don't know how you break the loop on this. That's, that's a, that's a President Trump level question. Beyond, beyond our portfolio, you and me, but that's, that's what's going on. And is, is it, is this sustainable in the. So not to, not to engage in my own fair porn, but please audience, understand that modern biotechnology is at a level right now. I'll say it this way. During the 60s, up until Nixon's determination that we were going to stop doing this, a case can be made that modern virology, molecular biology and microbiology exist because of the massive spending that occurred in advancing the biowarfare agenda. The heads of the American society for microbiology for years were the leaders in the kind of USAMRID biowarfare world. That technology platform that has given us the RNA and gene therapy and PCR and all that comes out of this massive investment. And it, it is dark. It, as Bobby talks about in this other book, Wuhan Lablink, it followed the real Anthony Fauci. It has roots in both German and in particular Japanese biowarfare programs. And the Japanese biowarfare program was particularly nasty.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Wasn't that unit 741?

[Host]

Yeah, I think you're, you would have more. So they would, they would take prisoners of war and they actually fed them pretty well. But the price of being healthy was that they would experiment on live people. They, they would inoculate. You'd stick your arm through a chamber and they would jab you with whatever the agent was. And my understanding is they would perform live autopsies. I mean the ethics there. But a lot of those people kind of got Wernher von Braun into usamrid. So that's the core from which our modern bio industrial defense complex grew. So no surprise that there's some pretty sketchy ethics in that space. And so it, it's still ongoing. Now a key, key thing to understand is that after the anthrax letters and that as far as I'm concerned, that is still unresolved. It reeks to high habit.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

As a personal note, I think I have about eight anthrax shots in me to which I never got a clear answer as to why other than you're, oh, you're going to the Middle east, you're going to be exposed to anthrax and I, there's no doubt in my mind it has affected my metabolic stability, it's affected neurological aspect.

[Host]

Yeah. And that's why the law was put in place. That is the basis for Pete Hegseth's announcement.

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That's why the law was put in place. That is the basis for Pete Hegseth's announcement that the mandated administration of unlicensed vaccines by the Pentagon chain of command that Captain Tomlinson has the three ring binders on for that whole chain of that, that those orders, you know, a JAG level Navy captain based out of Big island who I've met with and you know, talked to, so she's got the seats and you know, as I said in another essay, I'm, I'm waiting for the courts marshals. But that law was put in place because of soldiers like yourself and what you experience with Gulf War Syndrome and the anthrax vaccines. But what happened was getting back on thread when those spores were deployed and they had the characteristics of weaponized anthrax spores because normally anthrax spores will clump and then you can't distribute them through aerosol and it takes some fancy stuff to make them so they don't clump. And the analysis of those little spore packages demonstrated that whoever put those spores in those packages had access to weaponized material. And the decision was that it didn't come from Los Alamos, which couldn't come from. It didn't come from Battelle, which could have come from. It came from usambri. And there was a hole in, in the. Bruce Ivins got harassed. He was unstable. Anyhow, he committed suicide. And everybody said, oh, it was Bruce Ivins, case solved and we can go back to work. But the, the blowback from that was Tony Fauci was able to make the case organizationally within the government that the DoD had screwed the pooch and they couldn't be relied upon to responsibly and efficiently develop medical countermeasures and so NIAD was so much better at this than the dod, which was a total self serving lie. But, and, and all you have to do is look at what he's done with the money ever since. And a lot of programs that were on track are no, no longer on track. But that was, that allowed him to become dual hatted, heading up NYAD and also heading up the entire military biowarfare complex. And that's what was used to justify, because of these increased responsibilities, this major bump in pay that he got that made him the most highly compensated federal employee. So that's, that's, you know, people don't recognize that Fauci was sitting on at the tip of the pyramid of just a massive amount of money that goes back to World War II. And so that structure has still not been reorganized to the best of my knowledge. And that is, that's a interagency issue that somebody under Hegseth has got to have a pow wow with J. Bhattacharya and split the baby again as far as I'm concerned. And then we got to have some serious thinking about what the heck are we doing here because. And that feeds into the President's recent executive order. Getting back to your core topic of gain of function research. So bless his heart, Bobby has made a series of statements and he's kind of gotten ahead of his keys on that executive order. He said that President Trump has endorsed a total ban of gait and function research. Okay, let's examine that. What the executive order really does is it creates some more obstacles for federally funded gain of function research, a little more oversight. So it's turned up the knob a little bit on the oversight of gain of function research and the approval process. So it's created some more bureaucracy. But that bureaucracy can be corrupted, you know, now or in the future by just making sure that you get the right appointments in those positions. And then they'll just like the FISA courts, they'll just bless whatever, throw holy water on it, say go forth. And it does nothing to address the privately funded gain of function research that occurs that STAT news itself documented. And I testified to the Texas Senate about that. There was gait of function research going on in the University of Texas system, underfunding by Pfizer having to do with novel coronavirus. This is still ongoing. And you know, then we had the reveal of the surreptitious CCP funded shop in California. God only knows how many of those are. But basically, if, if BlackRock decides that it's Appropriate that Yurt Newco do gate of function research and they capitalize it. I'm just picking on blackrock.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Right, right. They're the easiest.

[Host]

Yeah. They're, they're low hanging fruit. So there's nothing that President Trump's executive order has to say about that. It's only about federal funded research. So we're a long way. I wish it was. So these forward looking statements, let's say that Bobby's making, but we're a long way from a ban on gain of function research in the United States, over.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Well, thank, thank you for that answer. The last little bit is I always want to leave the audience on a positive night. Those happy warriors, right. We want to get them fired up after we just gave them a pretty heavy dose of a dose of reality, which is what the whole show's intense intent is and to contextualize it. All right. You know, one of my other heroes from, from, you know, your community and what you're doing is Peter McCullough. And you know, he appears to have some type of protocol that, that enables people who might have suffered some type of vaccine injury or some type of adverse.

[Host]

Okay, Dave, I'm going to cut you off there.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Okay.

[Host]

Peter works for the Wellness Company. Okay. And the Wellness Company sells treatment kits that are. Have a combination of licensed pharmaceuticals and nutraceuticals. The Wellness Company is extremely linous. The Wellness Company has sent me cease and desist orders and many other physicians. The Wellness Company is now suing Cali Means. So I just, I, I just cannot comment on Peter, the Wellness Company. Kelly, Victory. A lot of this. Now, now I'm no longer talking about the Wellness Company. I just want to be clear on that. Yeah, Yeah. A lot of the dissension that has occurred within the base can be traced to people that are associated with the Wellness Council. Wow.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Wow, that's disheartening to hear, sir.

[Host]

It really is. And I, and it's kryptonite for me. I cannot talk about Peter McCullough and what he does. Like I said, I've had a, you know, me and others have received very aggressive cease and desist letters. And if I say anything about Peter McCullough, then, you know, I get a whole bunch of blowback about how I'm just.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

I understand, sir. All right, so let's put that off to the side then. What in your mind, is there a way forward to some type of, of medical development or protocol in the future that will help all these people who have.

[Host]

Yeah, that. This. So, David, What? So I I suggest that the approach here is to go higher level. Okay, These, the people that are vaccine damaged are real. Mickey Willis just came out with a video last night. It was published, open source about these people that are not able to be heard. They've been censored so heavily. Maddie Daguerre being just one example. So the special vaccine court for Covid has been set up to compensate people that are damaged by these products. And they've given out a tiny handful of settlements that average a few thousand dollars and meanwhile they've spent over $10 million defending their positions and holding their little meetings, paying for their consultants and all that crap. They're not actually helping anybody in any real way. If I, if I had my way, we would have a RICO case here against the perps that have conspired and manipulated and censored and propagandized and everything else. And akin to the tobacco settlement. In my best of all possible worlds, this would be pursued in the same way the tobacco settlement was with by the states. So get it away from the feds. And the proceeds of such a case would be used to make right to the best of your ability, those that have suffered injuries due to these policies. And that's, that's broadly written. It's not just the jab, it's, it's the, and huge damage to small businesses that's been very well documented by the lockdowns and so many other things that, that in, not to mention God, the, the damage to our children, children from the educational system. I mean that teachers union that is run by this buddy of Hillary Clinton that was responsible for influencing Rochelle Walensky, that, that one needs to be taken out. So that's, that's if I, in, if I, you know, if, if Donald Trump invited me down to Mar a Lago and we had a dinner and heart to heart and he said, what can I possibly do here? I, I've had an epiphany and I want to make it better. I'd say find a way to the start to make things right to the best of your ability, the vaccine injured.

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[Host]

Think about how, you know, being somebody is coming from a libertarian framework, I'm skeptical of the ability of the government to do anything without screwing things up. But, and I'm, you know, I don't see the state as our friend, but the state is responsible for this in a significant way.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

I really hope you're enjoying the show with Dr. Robert Malone. We want to pause briefly for me to remind you that on May 31st at 11:00am Eastern Standard Time. On our Patreon account I will be giving a live motivational event. One hour of the most incredible motivation you've ever heard. This is 30 years of, of of really me trying to understand what about the human condition that enables us to succeed? Or what drives failure in the most extreme environments imaginable. Now all you got to do is go to our Patreon account at David Rutherford Show It's a $2 a month subscription rate and you will be have full access to this event. One hour of speaking and one hour of Q and A. You don't want to miss it. Please join us on our Patreon account. Thank you.

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[Host]

The.

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[Host]

The state is responsible for this in a significant way and you ought to own it and figure out not just how to create some repair for the vaccine injured, but the broader issue of this whole lost generation and their education they represent, particularly young men, represent an enormous resource for the United States that's underutilized right now at a time when we are desperately seeking people qualified to do, let's call it dirty jobs, work with their hands. And those are six figure incomes to be a H vac person or an electrician, mechanical engineer, etc. We desperately need those people and if they have been deprived of the necessary training to enter the trades or otherwise because of the school policies, then let's think hard about the federal government capitalizing training programs. And I personally would, you know, it's this is, this is really pushing the edges coming from a fan of the Mises Institute. But the work projects that were done in the context of the Depression, we need some sort of national program to put our own people back to work. And, and this whole, oh, we're just going to import a bunch of Latinos and And Chinese and everybody else from an open border to replace our missing personnel cohort. I'm sorry that. That is not how you maintain a nation. We. We need to take care of our own. So that's. That's where I come down on this is as. I really think that somebody needs to get the Kahunas to prosecute a RICO against these players. And it probably has to go at the state level because the indemnification that's been provided by the feds and that has. There's also, by the way, this is inside baseball, but the utilization of the other transactional authority to acquire these products, which is not what it's intended for. In bypassing the federal acquisition regulation, the contracting officers that enabled that, they need to go. They need to be held accountable. Those are specific, you know. Hello, Pete. Knock, knock. Not just courts, marshals, but you need to hunt down those cosmos and they need to pay a price for what they get.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

I couldn't agree more. You know, maybe we could take some of the 2.2 billion that were taken from Harvard and give it to Mike Rowe and get some young people out there and get them rebuild in America, right? And bringing health back to America. Starting local farms and local business.

[Host]

You can't hire the people they need to build the goddamn submarines. Not available. Get with it.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

That's right. Amen. Well, sir, again, I, I just.

[Host]

The.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

The magnitude of respect that I have for you and the.

[Host]

The.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

The battle that you've been fighting is beyond inspirational to me. It's. It's definitely implicated a radical shift in the way I perceive reality and the world itself, and has invigorated me to go beyond what I used to think was the necessity and now into this space to bring the light to the truth of what's taking place. So, Dr. Malone, where can people follow you, find you? And. And, and more importantly, you know, what advice do you have them moving forward?

[Host]

They can find me at Galt's Gulch, otherwise known as Madison, Virginia. But all kidding aside, thanks for the opportunity to pump my own merch. That would be substack below. News. The books, the Lies My government Told Me and Better Future Coming and the book Cy Enforcing the New World Order are officially available wherever good books are sold. But increasingly that just comes down to Amazon, the audiobook that I recorded here in the studio late at night because of my motorcycle riding orders.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Perfect Weather now.

[Host]

Can only be accessed through Amazon. I'm sorry, but a lot of people like that. It's actually more accurate than the Cy War book. Because as I was reading it, I picked up errors, the typos in the book itself and they're corrected in the audiobook. So if you like audiobooks, that's a good one. And then there's. We have a website, R.W. malone MD. And you can find, find that. I'm on Parler now. I'm an ambassador for Parler. And for what it's worth, Parler is blockchain protected. Yay. And of course X and True Social. And gab. I'm sorry, Getter, not Gab. I. I have an account on Gab, but it just got too.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Too much.

[Host]

Too much and too much free speech. The Israeli conflict, let's say. Yeah. So those are all at RW Malone md.

[Dr. Robert Malone]

Outstanding. God bless you, sir.

[Host]

Thanks for having me on, dude.

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[Thrivent Announcer]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves. Loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent, where money means more. Connect with [e-mail] not everyone who handles.

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[Host]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.