← The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
P*rn Addiction, Spiritual Warfare & How To Quit For Good | Mason Cain | Ep. 51
01:03:35
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- [00:00]
Podcast Host
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Abeka Homeschool Advertiser
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- [00:36]
Mason Cain
Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [00:39]
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- [00:53]
Mason Cain
Whoa, this thing moves.
- [00:54]
Lenovo Advertiser
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- [03:11]
David Rutherford
Addiction is something that goes way deeper than just the device to which people experience it, right? Whether it's the, the line of cocaine, the syringe of heroin, the pill of fentanyl, or the website of pornography, addiction is something that goes down to an individual's core. And once they're ravaged by this dise, it seems almost impossible to escape. In my world, I have four teenage daughters. One of the things that I worry most about is who are the people, who are the men that they're going to engage with in a, in an intimate way and where are those young boys or young men, where are they learning their interpretation of a healthy relationship? Unfortunately, we live in a society in a world today where pornography has taken over many of these young boys lives and creating an addiction for them. Today I'm honored beyond measure to welcome a fellow Christian, but more importantly, a warrior against Satan in this horrific disease that's just encompassing the whole world. This man is out there on the front line fighting this fight day in and day out. So I'm honored to welcome Mason Cain from unchainedleader.com Mason, thank you so much for joining me.
- [04:49]
Mason Cain
Thanks, David. I'm really happy to be here. God's got me on a really crazy ride. And I've noticed that over the journey of the last couple years that we've started Unchained Leader, he's starting to work more and more through connections with strategic other men.
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Interviewer/Host
Right.
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Mason Cain
And I think that in a, in a time in a society where we see men are not stepping up into the roles that they're designed to live in. There's also this certain group of men that are like, you know what, like we feel called and we're going to answer that call and we're going to speak truth into lies. We're going to shine light into darkness. And you know, it's funny, kind of just a series of connections of seeing you on Sean Ryan's Podcast and then seeing your Instagram page and just reading about what you were about, there was this supernatural feeling that I just like, you know what? David's probably one of those guys. And so it's, you know, I'm happy to be here, man, and thank you for being one of the few that are willing to speak towards this darkness because it's kind of a taboo topic that most people don't want to touch with this 10 foot stick.
- [05:53]
David Rutherford
Are you kidding me? This has been a part of my life since I was a little boy. I mean, since, you know, you find those first Playboys and Penthouses, you know, at your friends, fathers or, you know, you know, for us there was this, you know, this place, you know, where a rope swing was and all these older boys would dump these magazines there. And you know, and then you're, you know, it's this, this sacred thing that you have to go and sneak this and then, you know, to. Now where it's like directly accessible for kid. Any, any young kid that's got a, a laptop, an iPad or computer, they can access the most depraved things sexually that humans could ever fathom or create, up to including, you know, abusive sexual situations, pedophilic, demonic, you know, attacks that you can find on the dark web. I mean, it's gotten to the point now where, I mean, you know, you, you know, I'm sure you'll share some of these statistics here in a second, but it's so overwhelming and it's so destructive to the young men and women in the world right now that if we don't start calling it out for what it is, it's only gonna get worse. And I think that a direct effect of this is we're seeing that the drop in marriages, the, you know, the intensity of divorce rates, the drop in marriages, people not wanting to get, people not wanting to have children, you know, people not being able to formulate healthy relationships. Astonishing numbers. So, man, like, the fact that this is what you've, you know, dedicated your life to is. Yeah, I'm, I'm in that same boat, man. My, you know, it's all about that, protecting the future generations for sure. And, and even our own. I mean, there's, I mean, you know, you look at the data, the statistics, I mean, this is a problem not just for young kids. It's for, you know, men in their 20s, their 30s, their 40s. You know, it falls off a little bit after their 50s, but, you know, it's still a massive issue at every level. So, yeah, Man, I'm in the fight with you on this. It's, it's my honor to have you on.
- [08:07]
Mason Cain
Like I said, I love it, man. And it's, it's interesting what you said. You know, a lot of times, like number one, I think that we needed to address the problem for what it is. It is a all out spiritual assault on us, right? And so we, we look at this as, you know, oh, is it this problem? No, like from a spiritual lens, we see throughout scripture, right? We look at David, we look at Solomon, we look at Samson like these really powerful men. What is the tool that the enemy used against these men that were dangerous to darkness, right? You see in David's story it was Bathsheba, right? You see in Solomon's story, like with all the wisdom in the world, like his fall was women, multiple wives, concubines. You see Solomon, like he defeated armies of men and Delilah was his fall, right? And so still to this day these patterns repeat themselves. And these, these men that are supposed to be stepping up into their rightful place of the way that God created them to lead their household spiritually, to lead in the church, to lead in the community, right? The enemy is using this to create this agreement with them of like starting in childhood, hey, this is bad. You know that it's bad, but it's our secret, right? And yes, it's exposed like most men are exposed in childhood to some degree. It's becoming increasingly earlier and earlier with the advancement of technology, with technology getting in kids hands sooner. Actually the, the statistic now is the average age of exposure is 8 to 12 years old.
- [09:46]
David Rutherford
And so for that initial exposure, or.
- [09:48]
Mason Cain
Just as it, the initial exposure and we, we work with around 9, 000 guys inside of our program. It grows every week. But that's, that's repeated and echoed as pretty accurate inside of our program as well. But I, I think that it's also important to mention that this isn't just a kid's problem, right? And so the, the reason that I stepped into this field is because this was the most painful and deeply challenging struggle in my life as an adult, right? And so some of the statistics that we see, number one, porn traffic. Porn sites are the number one most traffic thing on the Internet. There's thousands and thousands of different porn sites. Barna Research group is, is one of the groups that have delved into this. It's interesting, not a whole lot of research groups are picking this topic up, but pornography specifically, the last research that they just did, which published within this last year, 69% of men consume pornography once a week. And this is an anonymous survey inside of the church. 54% of practicing Christians. So this doesn't mean just somebody that's like, yeah, I'm a Christian. This is. They're practicing, they're actively engaging in services, they're actively engaging in practices. 54% of men. And then really interesting and something that we've seen as well. 68% of pastors have either struggled or are still struggling with this. And so pornography is one of those things where, you know, I was exposed early in childhood and, you know, it became this thing that I tried to quit, tried to quit, tried to give it to God, tried all these apps and blockers and everything that everybody tries, you know, tells you that you need to do. And there was this point where I, I just accepted that this was going to be, you know, my cross to carry or the thorn in my side, or, you know, these Christ sayings that people throw out, and I just needed to keep it a secret. And then what's interesting is, you know, I believed that as I got older that this problem would maybe lessen or like, maybe my sex drive would just go down. And it didn't. But something interesting happened as I entered adulthood, as I got married, as I had a kid and became a father, as I started a business and became a business owner that was supposed to be leading. As I started to be viewed as, you know, a leader or a man inside of the, of our church, I started to go, well, it's less acceptable for me to struggle with this problem now as an adult.
- [12:24]
Interviewer/Host
Right?
- [12:24]
Mason Cain
Like, this should be a kid's problem. And so the older that I got, the more responsibilities that I got, the harder that it was for me to admit the truth and admit that I actually needed help with this problem. And it's not something that I could conquer alone or with just me and God. Which is interesting.
- [12:42]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [12:42]
Mason Cain
And so, you know, the, the confusion there for me was I. I felt like, you know, through Christ, all things are possible.
- [12:51]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [12:53]
Mason Cain
But there's also this verse in the Bible that says that we need to confess our sins to one another, pray for one another, so that we may be healed. And that verse doesn't say, confess your sins to God, pray with God and he's going to heal you, just you and him.
- [13:07]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [13:08]
Mason Cain
And so there's this one, another connection aspect that was required for me that I didn't get for a long time. What.
- [13:14]
David Rutherford
What was the thing? Why did you. Why did you not? What, what was the resistance for confessing. I love how you use that idea. I think most people, you know, encapsulate the idea of confession within the Catholic Church. And it's like you're this box and you're, you know, confessing your sins. And I've had multiple people say, well, as a kid, I, I, you know, I wasn't a bad kid, but they wanted me to force some confession or whatever, and it lost the gravity of, of, of what a confessional to do, right? So what was the thing that was like, all right, you, you, you, obviously, you're conscientious about its impact on your faith, but what was the thing that crossed the line that was like, oh, no, hey, you, my swim buddy, my friend, my pastor, my wife, whatever it was, hey, I, I've got this challenge. Can you help me with this?
- [14:06]
Mason Cain
The, the initial and I think the, the main reason that I would confess other things but not this is because the way that the enemy works, it's interesting. Like, he is the tempter and the accuser, right? And so, like, he tempted me with this at a young age. And then when I gave into the temptation, the accusations, and the voice into my head started, right, you're weird, you're perverted, you're messed up. Like, you're one of the only people that struggle with this at this deep of a level, right? And then it, it's interesting. Like, it strengthened as I became an adult. And again, like, being a business owner, being a husband, being a father, being somebody that from the outside looking in, people were like, you know, mason's got it together. And I, I was very concerned about making other people painting this illusion that I did have it together. It became even less acceptable. And I started to buy into the sly at an even deeper level that I gotta be one of the only, you know, strong Christian men that look like they have it all together, that have, you know, a beautiful wife and an amazing child, that have a successful business, that are still struggling with this childish thing? In my mind, right? There was this point in my life where my, my marriage was just breaking and it was headed towards imminent destruction, right? My wife and I had had argued, but the, the, the arguments shifted from contention to, like, logistics, right? Like, when we get divorced, how often am I going to get to see my kid? And there was this, this just thought of at this point, pornography was still a secret, right? And I think that's what weighed on me most, is I was living one life to everybody else, and then I was living this separate secret life that was, I just knew about, right? And I, I wondered if this secret life had something to do with my marriage falling apart, right? Because she doesn't know about it. Like, it's, it's just, it's just me and my phone, right? Like I, I do this in secret. Could these things be connected? And I realized that it didn't really matter if they were and if that's what was causing my marriage to fail. Like whether my marriage was amazing or it failed. Like if I had this secret and if I felt guilt and shame and like I was stuck and I couldn't get out, I didn't want to live another day like that, right? And. And at that point, my pain of staying the same became greater than the pain of admitting that I have a problem and dealing with the consequences of it. And so that was the way that I saw it in my mind. But really, if we look at this from a 30,000 foot view, what happened is I was being really prideful, right? Like I had this perception that I wanted everybody to view me from. I spent a lot of time trying to formulate this perception and it was really prideful. And biblically, like, I had to step into humility, which I didn't understand I was doing at the time. I was just broken, right? Pride becomes, comes before the fall. And like, humility is a prerequisite for healing. And so that moment where I admitted that I had a problem, I started trying to seek help. It was a long, really painful journey. But that started the shift of exiting the bondage that I was in. And like the darkness that I was trapped in, the invisible present that I felt like I was in to going through this journey of discovering why I actually had this problem, right? Because it wasn't just a behavior issue or a willpower problem as much deeper than that. And then on the journey that eventually led to Unchained Leader and you know, 9,000 plus guys that have been, you know, walked through our process at this.
- [18:12]
David Rutherford
Point, that's, I mean, that's the crux of this whole thing, right? Is getting to that point where you can be humble in your own sin. And I think that's the transformative place. I remember for me, a big component of this. I had had my first daughter. I was traveling back and forth, speaking and doing these engagements and really talking about these core motivational ideas. One of them is learning to embrace fear. And I remember I was sitting in the airplane, flying, and behind me this, this woman, probably a college age girl, struck up a conversation with a woman next door and they were chatting. And I don't know how it came up, but pornography came up in some interesting way. And she made a comment that.
- [19:07]
Interviewer/Host
It.
- [19:07]
David Rutherford
Really affected me because my whole life growing up, my father had Playboys and Penthouses, you know, in his bathroom or in his closet. And, you know, it was me and my sisters, and it all affected us. We never said anything. And then when we all kind of got older, it kind of came out and it was very tumultuous, and we were very angry, you know, that that was a presence in our. In our home and in our life. And we wondered why our father, you know, was like that. And so I was like, holy cow. This is something that I need to think about and address. And it's, you know, then all of a sudden, you. As you peel back, right, those layers of sin, and you. You are. And as you like to so adroitly describe it as. As you unlock those chains because you're a slave to it. And I love that. That metaphor. I think it's brilliant. You start to realize, well, like you said, why is it so common? Why is it a default setting for me when I'm lonely or I go home at night and. Or whatever, I'm on the road or whatever it is? Why is it so prevalent? And I think, you know, one aspect is. And which amazing. When you say the number 9,000 men are a part of your organization, you know, you start to go, well, wow, this is really common. Yeah, I am not isolated in this, this, this. This. The servitude towards sin. So what have you learned not only with yourself, but as you keep bringing more men into the fold, right into this place? Is this, you know, are the stories similar? Or is it, you know, what are the commonalities across all of. All of. All of men that have struggled or suffered or do suffer with it?
- [21:05]
Mason Cain
Yeah. So I'll speak to two things. One, just on the effect that it has on your household as being the spiritual leader. If you're consumed in a world of pornography and you're leading a household, that is something that you're struggling with. And if you do not transform that, you end up transmitting it in one way, shape, or form.
- [21:25]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [21:26]
Mason Cain
And so that's why a lot of times we see that guys that come into our program, they start to discover that this has been a generational thing. And one of the things that we encourage guys to just latch onto, like this will run into. In your family until it runs into you. If you make the decision to transform this rather than transmit it to the next generation.
- [21:47]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [21:48]
Mason Cain
And so that might be transmitted in a one to one pornography problem.
- [21:53]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [21:54]
Mason Cain
It may also be transmitted into another way that will spiral into some other type of addiction, which is the emotional disconnect in the household. And so that ties into the common thread of all of the guys that the 9,000 that we're working with currently or have worked with to this point. This comes down to an emotional root problem. This is not a hey, I have a lustful eye. This is not a hey, I have an abnormally high sex drive. Hey, I'm just perverted. Like these I am statements are things that guys come in believing as the problem because that's the, the, the belief that the enemy is planted in their ear. But really what, what we discover and common thread through all these guys, it's actually a pain problem, right? And so when you become curious about why you have this problem, rather than trying to just pray it away or get rid of it, two things happen. Number one, you start to understand that it is a pain problem. And there's some really consistent patterns when you become curious about it. Like when you get really stressed out, high stress, right. You tend to want to medicate and escape reality. And pornography becomes a mechanism to do that.
- [23:08]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [23:09]
Mason Cain
Or just hyper sexualized activities that get you to disconnect from reality momentarily.
- [23:15]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [23:15]
Mason Cain
This giant dose of dopamine you're actually using as a drug and the dopamine disconnects you from what's going on. And so you get the medication and sedation that you were looking for. It's actually a really good method to accomplish that.
- [23:29]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [23:30]
Mason Cain
The problem is the consequence on the back end compiles in a lot of different ways. And these guys come in and they start to realize that there were some things that happened in childhood that are causing them to be triggered at an ultra high level when they get stressed.
- [23:47]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [23:48]
Mason Cain
And so when you're getting really stressed and you go, hey, like I can't manage this, my brain wants to escape. That's not the problem, right. That dynamic. The problem is why are you getting so triggered? Why are you getting so dysregulated? Well, typically we see that external environments and things that are going on are triggering deeper roots that were planted throughout childhood. This night might be a belief of inadequacy from something that happened at 8, right. This might be a belief of like somebody's going to abandon me or I'm going to be abandoned in the situation.
- [24:22]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [24:23]
Mason Cain
Something that happened at 10, 11, 12. We have like my earliest memory actually ended up tracing back to five. It was a repressed memory. And, and the thing is, most adults never go back to these childhood developmental years where most of our programming happens from a place of intentionally unpacking it.
- [24:44]
Interviewer/Host
Right?
- [24:45]
Mason Cain
Men especially, we go, this stuff happened in childhood. I'm done with those childish things. We box it up and we shove it in the basement of our minds and we never go back and readdress it. And these are the very things that hold the roots of these addictive behavior patterns. Whether again, it's pornography or alcohol, or maybe it's consumer addiction or gambling, right? We see that these are all attached to the same dynamic of these unhealed root problems.
- [25:14]
David Rutherford
David Rutherford, my best friend. Welcome to the show, Sean. Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here. What's up, team? I recently had the incredible honor of joining my best friend Sean Ryan on his show. And as a token of my appreciation for him and his audience, I want to do something special for you. For 30 years, I've been helping individuals and teams to discover how to utilize pain and suffering to propel their performance. From the World Series champions, the Boston Red Sox, to elite operators, top entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs and business owners, I want to offer the first three foundational FrogLogic courses that I've been developing for the past decade. Embrace fear, forging self confidence, and team life. These courses come straight from the painful stories and lessons learned I talked about on Sean's podcast, and they also emerged from the thousands of people I've instructed. Normally, These courses are $200 each, but until September 15th, you can get all three for just $200. That's three courses for the price of one. Please go to davidrutherford.com or click the link in the description to get the bundle. Thank you very much, Ouya, and Godspeed.
- [26:32]
Abeka Homeschool Advertiser
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- [27:01]
David Rutherford
Come on.
- [27:02]
Mason Cain
Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [27:05]
Lenovo Advertiser
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- [27:19]
Mason Cain
Whoa, this thing moves.
- [27:21]
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- [27:39]
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- [29:45]
David Rutherford
You know, I I Think there is that, that apprehensiveness in all people, in particular men, obviously, is to, you know, is to unpack that stuff there. What we're beginning to find in a lot of the guys that are killing themselves, these gwad, multiple tour combat veterans, it's not necessarily what they experienced downrange, whereas it's a lot of trauma took place in these young. In these. When they were young boys in their lives, which drove them into this desire to live in a more safe, protective capacity. They could protect and be, you know, the night, if you will, from that, that archetypical need, that heroic archetype. And then they get out and that fades away. And all that stuff that was just brewing comes back with a vengeance. And that's what collapses them. And whether they want to or not, I suppose with the stories that you're hearing, and obviously 9,000 is a lot more than a couple hundred. I mean, that's a massive amount of people. You've. You've gotten to a place where you have a system. How did the system emerge? And then. Let's talk about what the system is to address.
- [31:09]
Mason Cain
The system emerged out of a debilitating level of frustration because when I reached that breaking point of I don't want to live another day like this, I moved from suicide ideation to a place of. I have a. It's written in one of the books that I wrote, but I was in the. In my garage on a cooler, and I knew my pistol was in my truck, and I stood up and started walking over to my pistol, right? Like that's, that's where I was at. And in that moment, the shift happened where I decided, you know what, Like, I'm gonna go all out on solving this problem. The thing is, the frustration built because I started trying all of the stuff that other people told me to do, right? All of the information that was out there. I ended up in a Sex Addicts Anonymous group, right? I ended up installing all of the blockers, installing all the filters, getting an accountability partner, went all out on praying more, reading my Bible more, you know, going to Bible studies on top of Sunday morning services. And I was trying all of these things to solve this negative behavior that I had. And I didn't actually start to heal until I was in a session with a trauma informed counselor. And they asked me a question of what if the behavior is not the problem? What if there's something deeper that's driving it?
- [32:51]
David Rutherford
Wow.
- [32:52]
Mason Cain
And that started the journey of diving into childhood, diving into all these other things, and so when I realized that, I started to heal on my own, I started to heal my marriage. And I got to this place where I just felt like God was calling me. Like there was no vision of Unchained Leader at this point. It was just God was calling me to share my story. And so I started talking about it on social media and people started asking me like, well, what do you do? Like what did you do that that created success? And I was like, well, I can give you a hundred things that didn't work in like two years of misery, misery and frustration of trying all this stuff that didn't work. But I, I couldn't map out like, hey, you need to go to this specific guy here. And then you need to go to this program and then you need to read this book and this book and this book. Like, you know, the, the way that I figured it out was kind of like a detective in the basement with a bunch of pictures and thumbtacks yarn, Right?
- [33:48]
David Rutherford
Yeah.
- [33:49]
Mason Cain
And so I, I took a look back at like, hey, here's all of the stuff that didn't work. And then here's the stuff that did work. And the stuff that didn't work was behavior modification.
- [33:58]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [33:59]
Mason Cain
And so this isn't a behavior problem. The behavior showing up because of some deep root issues. And so inside of our program, we bring guys in with the, the number one thing is eliminating the guesswork.
- [34:11]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [34:11]
Mason Cain
And so what we did is we set up up a 90 day intensive where every single day all of the guesswork's taken out. Week one, day one, you have a video module to walk. It's going to explain something strategic that's going to be used in day three, four, all the way to 90. You have some self reflection work to do that's going to cause you to start discovering what is a root issue, what's my unique root issue? Like what are the things that I need to know to even find the root issues that I have have. And then we stacked on top of that. Multiple group coaching sessions a week.
- [34:44]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [34:45]
Mason Cain
And so the, the trajectory of like the deep work is mapped out every single day. You don't have to think about it. I'm guiding you through the exact process that helped me. And then I think one of the key parts of this is the group coaching and the community.
- [35:00]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [35:01]
Mason Cain
One of the things that we see, and you've, you've probably experienced as well, is that that connection is the opposite of addiction.
- [35:07]
Interviewer/Host
Right?
- [35:08]
Mason Cain
And addiction thrives in isolation and seclusion. And when, like me, you believe you're that you're the dirtiest, nastiest, most messed up, most perverted man on the planet, and you're the only one that deals with this. And you step into a coaching call with over a hundred other guys that are battling the same exact thing, and guys that are walking in two, three, four years of freedom from the temptation of it, and you start to be able to see what's possible. That starts to break some things inside of you.
- [35:43]
Interviewer/Host
Right?
- [35:43]
Mason Cain
That starts to break some of these chains that are holding you back. And then it also puts you into an environment where we're coaching men on how do you actually have real brotherhood and relationships with other men? Because, you know, we. We start to believe, like, I think that at least I believe I'll speak for myself, that this is something that I should be naturally good at. It was actually a skill that I had to develop and be intentional with.
- [36:09]
Interviewer/Host
Right?
- [36:09]
Mason Cain
And so now we're. We're guiding men into being able to walk, number one, in a way that they're not still dealing with all of these subconscious root issues that have been woven throughout the fiber of their lives by the enemy intentionally. This is a spiritual attack on them. Them.
- [36:25]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [36:26]
Mason Cain
They're also able to now walk in community and brotherhood that some of them didn't even know that they needed.
- [36:32]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [36:32]
Mason Cain
Like, I didn't know that I needed that type of relationship where I can be fully known and fully loved.
- [36:40]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [36:40]
Mason Cain
And so the coaching side of things in the community are a big part of that. And then the other thing that we're doing now that we have 9,000 guys and this grows by about 100 to 150 guys a week that jump into the program. We have big pockets of people in most major metropolitan areas in the US A lot in Europe, Australia, and we're getting these guys to get together on the weekends and, like, form in person meetups and in person relationships, because the online relationships are really powerful. And then when you're. We're also able to plug people into, you know, sitting across the coffee table from somebody or going to topgolf or what most of our guys do, go shooting together or something fun like that, right? Shooting, fishing. And, you know, that that deepens the level of number one healing, but then also deepens the level of stability that you have walking in freedom now out of this darkness.
- [37:38]
David Rutherford
Wow. I. I just. I think you're gonna have a hundred thousand guys in the next five years, man. I mean, I just think this is such a. Just to reiterate for, you know, some of the statistics that I found in prep for this, you know, this is from Grok. You know, the estimates.4% of all websites globally are dedicated to pornographic content, suggesting millions of sites, potentially over 10 million active ones. Based on total Internet websites, which is about 250 million. The older data from 2010, this was fascinating. Indicated at least 42,000 sex related sites among the top 1 million most visited websites. Annual views, impressions and downloads. This was staggering. Global porn sites receiving enormous traffic with Pornhub alone reporting 130 billion visits annually based on 10.8 billion monthly. Other top sites like XV Video or X Videos or XNX at another 128 billion combined, pushing top platforms over 258 billion a year. I broke it down by demographics. Young adults, 57% of those age 18 to 25 watching porn at least monthly. You had the weekly demographics by gender, 69% male, 40% female. You know, and it just goes on and on and on. And then this was the other one. This one was the other staggering. And this is annual revenue of paid porn sites. The global adult entertainment market, including paid Porn, estimates at $71.63 billion for 2025 US pornographic websites generating 1.3 billion annually. That is a, that is an army. That's more than an army. I mean, that's a.
- [39:47]
Mason Cain
The statistic that really stood out to me. You said 238 billion. I believe it was total traffic.
- [39:53]
David Rutherford
Yep.
- [39:54]
Mason Cain
Okay, there's 8 billion people on the planet.
- [39:57]
David Rutherford
That's right.
- [39:58]
Mason Cain
And so we, we look at like these statistics of like 70, 80% and then like the frequency at which they're visiting, like 8 billion are providing this 200 something billion and traffic.
- [40:10]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [40:11]
Mason Cain
And so like that. I think that comparison of those two statistics alone shows, number one, how many people are actually visiting and like to. If we look at that, and this is what we found from. Because we get a lot of feedback, because we do a lot of marketing and like we can see direct feedback from that. We have a running joke in the company where it's like, you know, if I. And not to joke about, you know, addiction, but we do a little bit.
- [40:35]
Interviewer/Host
Bit.
- [40:35]
Mason Cain
But like if I.
- [40:36]
David Rutherford
You don't have some humor in this, then.
- [40:38]
Mason Cain
That's right. That's right. You know, I, I tell our team, it's like, man, if I throw a rock into a random crowd of people, the chances of me hitting somebody in the head with somebody that, that has this problem is pretty high.
- [40:48]
Interviewer/Host
Right?
- [40:49]
Mason Cain
And we see that, we see that in our marketing. And so these numbers of you know, 69 of men visit once a week. 54% of practicing Christians and 68% of pastors have struggled with it or currently are. What I've seen is the real number of people that are answering. If everybody answered honest, yes. The numbers are much, much higher than this. Right, I agree. And so, like, one thing, all of these numbers, what's the point? Like, what's a really powerful point that we can bring to the listener is like, you're not alone.
- [41:22]
David Rutherford
Yes.
- [41:23]
Mason Cain
You're in good company with people that are struggling with this. Right. And like, the decision is, am I going to continue to try to solve this alone or with just me and God, or, like, whatever you've been doing, or are you going to do something different, to get something different and go, I need help, which men are not naturally good at. It's very challenging to humble yourself to that degree and get a change by doing something different.
- [41:53]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [41:54]
Mason Cain
And so, like, every, every person struggling with this, men and women, we have a couple hundred women that work with our women's coach and the. The women's sexual addiction program. At the point that you're willing to have the humility to go, I need help. That's the decision that you have in the fork of the road. And like, you're either a going to intentionally decide that that's like, why not now, right? Like, what are you. What do you need to wait for in order to get to that point? Because the truth is there's a large population that take this to the grave. Like, I swore to. You know, there were things that I did. There were things that I was doing inside of this addiction in my life that I was like, those things are going to the grave with me, right? And I started to realize that I was as sick as all of the secrets that I was keeping, right? And so, like, in the listener's mind right now, it's like, you know, what. What are the secrets that you're keeping and how sick are those making you right now?
- [42:55]
David Rutherford
I. I think that's the hardest thing that we all do. Like, what do we do?
- [43:00]
Mason Cain
We.
- [43:00]
David Rutherford
We have those breakdowns, those moments where we. We give in to the temptation, right?
- [43:05]
Mason Cain
Where.
- [43:06]
David Rutherford
Where Satan, whatever you want to describe, forces the hand, if you will. And then immediately after, like, you discuss your. Your, you know, you're consumed with shame and guilt. But then you, you step out the door and you go right back into your life and you lock it up, you bury it, and you keep going. But as you said, it eventually manifests and it's Going to. It's gonna, it's gonna play out in a way that you don't expect it. And 99% of those are going to be negative. I have a question for you. What do you. What do you say to those people who say, you know what? You know, what do you care? You know, this is. Whatever I do in the confines of my own home, you know, just let me do it. That's my own. Right. That's my own, you know, desire. And if, if I want to look at porn, why can't I look at porn? Why, you know, what's the big deal?
- [44:02]
Mason Cain
Yeah, what's interesting, man, is, is you're. They're totally right. You can do whatever you want, man. And. And like, that's where free will sometimes gets you in trouble.
- [44:12]
Interviewer/Host
Right, right.
- [44:13]
Mason Cain
And. And here's the thing, man. Like, my goal and like, what God put on my heart was never to go, you're a. You're wrong for looking at porn. And porn's bad and all of this stuff. Like, there's so many people that are recognizing that pornography and, and like their hyper sexualized mind. And here's the other thing, just real quick, and then I'll get back to this. But this isn't just porn. Like, a lot of the guys that are like, I, I had an affair. I. I cheated on my wife when we were separated.
- [44:41]
Interviewer/Host
Right, right.
- [44:42]
Mason Cain
That was one in the same of the pornography problem. A lot of the guys that are coming in are habitually visiting massage parlors.
- [44:50]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [44:51]
Mason Cain
Some of the guys coming in are purchasing sex. Right. Like, there's. There's again, nothing new under the sun. This is all stuff that was happening in biblical times, still happening now. It's all part of the same problem. So, like, the question that I would propose to that person that's like, you know, oh, this is, you know, my business. I can do whatever I want. Want. It's like, have you actually intentionally sat down and counted the cost of the impact that it's having on you?
- [45:18]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [45:18]
Mason Cain
And so just one of the things that happened to me, and there's a. There's a thousand of them, if you really, like, sit down and intentionally unpack it. But when I would swear and pray and, like, commit to God, like, I'm never doing this again. And then I would find myself back to the point of just having watched porn, back to the point where I get the emotional high turns, like the dopamine high turns into a crash. And I'm going, you freaking idiot. Why did. Why do you keep doing this. Why did you do that? Again, listen to the self talk, right? Like, we. We think about our relationship with other people. We think about our relationship with God. But have you considered your relationship with yourself and how that impacts you? And so if your self talk to yourself and your relationship with yourself because of this habitual resist, fail cycle that you can't get out of and you can't overcome is, you idiot, why do you keep doing this? What's wrong with you? Well, I carried that into being a father. I carried that into being a husband. I carried that when things got really tough in business and I needed to lean in. My tendency now was to lean out.
- [46:28]
Interviewer/Host
Out.
- [46:29]
Mason Cain
Because I viewed myself from an identity that the enemy wanted me to view myself in, not who God created me to be. And if we look at, you know, again, going back to what you were talking about of these guys that, you know, have these wounds, they enter the service, they. They want to live into this archetype or this identity of being the hero, being the savior. They get out, they realize that they're not able to do that there. Everything comes crashing back down.
- [46:56]
Interviewer/Host
Down.
- [46:57]
Mason Cain
Originally, what was that? That was an identity lie that they believed they tried to live out. They realized that they weren't able to conquer or, like, live into that in reality. And now the identity becomes, I'm not important enough. I'm not valuable enough to live another day. And they commit suicide, right? And so we look at this as a porn problem, an addiction problem. This is as serious as life and death. The amount of guys that have gone along the same journey of, I'm broken, I'm this. I'm believing in a identity of myself that is just so far out of alignment of, like, who God's created me to be. I'm not worthy of living in another day. I don't matter to anybody else. Listen to, like, I am. I am. I am. That's repeated in scripture a lot, right? They buy into that to the degree that they get to the point where they. They take their own lives, right? And the amount of guys that have done that from, you know, getting out of the service, believing all these things about the traumas and the stuff that they haven't intentionally worked through. And the same thing happens with the guys that have been struggling with a secret addiction their entire lives and are so filled with shame that, like, when I was sitting on that cooler man, like, I was praying that God would send a. Another husband that was like, could be the husband that my wife needed and would send a father that could Be the father that my kid needed because I knew that they needed that, not me, because I was so filled with shame and, like, living in such a broken identity that I, like, I just wanted some other man that was able to be the spiritual leader that they needed to step in and take care of them, because I couldn't.
- [48:40]
David Rutherford
Wow. Wow, that's. That's a powerful statement right there. And that is the crux, right, is how do we become the best version of ourselves when we strip away all. All of these temptations to where we can be honest with ourselves and who we are and what we need to be, Right? Why do you think this is. Is such a massive problem societally? And why does it keep growing? Why does the numbers keep getting higher and higher and higher?
- [49:16]
Mason Cain
Mold grows best in darkness, right? And so I think one of the main things and. And like, we'll just talk about. We'll talk about society in general, but then also in the Christian culture, like, this is kind of a taboo topic that people don't really want to talk about from the pulpit.
- [49:35]
Interviewer/Host
It. Right?
- [49:35]
Mason Cain
Like, how many. How many Sunday morning sermons have we heard on the topic of pornography and sexual addiction, right? There's. There's not a whole lot. And so, like, one of the things that God put on my heart is like, just tell the truth of your story, number one. Like, let everybody know how broken and what a, you know, kind of a piece of crap you were for quite a while and just lied to everybody, right? Like, number one, share that. That. But number two, let's shine light into these corners of darkness that we've just, like, for far too long, we've been allowing the enemy to just operate, right? And so, like, there's. There's this domain of shadows even inside of the church, where it's like, if we don't address it and we don't talk about it, the more that we don't address it and don't talk about it, the more taboo and shameful it becomes. And so there's just this entire layer that we're giving the enemy this territory to attack, attack men and women in secret, right? And so the. The more that we don't talk about it, the more that it continues to grow. Like, we're. We are allowing there to be an environment for this mold to grow and fester and spread, right? And so the more that we just bring awareness to the problem, number one, I think, is step one, right? Hey, what is pornography like? Is it actually good for your brain? Is it going to improve your life or Deteriorate your life, even though it might good in the moment, right? Like, I look at it as almost like the same thing as cigarettes, right? Like, it was just common. Everybody did it. And then we started to bring awareness to like, hey, guys, here's how this is actually affecting you. And there's a lot of science and, and, and psychology studies that have been published of how it actually impacts your brain. Spiritual consequences aside, there are psychological impacts that happen that cause you to be less motivated to. That cause you to go into depression, that cause you to experience more anxiety because you're getting these artificially super hit, super high hits of dopamine that we were never intentionally and intelligently designed to get with zero effort, right? Dopamine is a reward for effort. Well, we're dousing our brain with ultra high hits of dopamine with zero effort, right? And so that directly chemically affects your motivation to do other things in life, affects your ambition, right? And so, so bringing awareness to how this is actually affecting you is number one. Number two is, hey, now that I'm aware that this is a problem, there's another problem, right? By solving one problem, you create another one. It's like, I know that it's a problem, but how do I quit? And unfortunately, the main information that's out there is, well, you install a blocker or a filter and you set up all these guardrails. But here's what happens. You're actually taking this chain of bondage that's on your life of this temptation and this desire, this unwanted desire to dive into these sexual pleasures, to get the dopamine hit, to escape from life. And by using a blocker or one of these other behavioral strategies, you're actually trying to chain yourself to something else, right? And so it's like, I'm gonna try to keep myself from watching porn by installing this blocker, but, like, porn's pulling me this way.
- [52:50]
Interviewer/Host
Way, right?
- [52:50]
Mason Cain
So, like, really what we've done is we've taken like this one chain and then we've wrapped another chain around our neck to tie us this way from not doing it. And even if you don't give into the temptation, you're still chained, you're still tormented. And that's what I experienced, right? It was like either a tormented by the shame of giving in to the temptation and then saying, mason, what's wrong with you? Why can't you quit? Like, you know, why do you keep doing this? Or I'm chained to the torment of resisting this, right? Like, either way, I'm Tormented until I go in and I do the deeper, deeper healing work, right? And so, like, the awareness is, guys, this, this is not a behavioral problem. The behaviors are just fruits of the roots inside of you. Those are the things that we need to dive into. Those are the things that we need to work through. And that is the problem that needs to be solved, resolved. Stop trying to treat this as a behavior problem. And again, like, I would never throw, throw rocks at the 12 step system, right? But I, I would say that from the 1930s, like, there needs to be kind of an update of what we're doing and how we're practicing, right? And it's just a little bit deeper awareness of there's actually some root issues that are causing these behaviors. And like, the problem isn't your behavior at all. It's what's going on that's creating the unwanted desires for something that you don't want to do.
- [54:15]
David Rutherford
Wow. Wow. That's about as good a description as I've ever heard. And I've been, thanks, brother. Trying to understand addiction for a long, long, long, long time, man. That was beautiful, Mason. Thank you. What's up, team? I've been writing for over 40 years. Finally, I've decided to bring to life a character that has been on my heart since my experience. Experiences of carrying a gun for a living. If you recently watched my episode with my best friend on his show, the Shawn Ryan show, you heard some of my real world experiences that shaped this character and the story of the Poet Warrior. Can a poet's soul survive the crucible of war? The Poet Warrior follows Adam Ferguson, a reclusive teenage artist haunted by his father's early death as he transforms into a battle scarred Navy Seal. Through the chaos of combat and the shadow of 9 11, Adam grapples with the raw truth of mortality. His journey is a searing odyssey of heartbreak, failure, and the relentless search for identity amidst the ruins of lost loved ones. Set against the turbulent dawn of the global war on terror, this is a story of a young man torn between his post poetic heart and the hardened warrior he's become. If this sounds like a story that might pull you in, please visit my website@davidrutherford.com or click the link in the description below. And if you pre order now, your signed copy will be delivered before the holidays. Thank you very much and Godspeed.
- [55:49]
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Mason Cain
Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
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Whoa, this thing moves.
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- [59:30]
David Rutherford
There's a component of pornography too that I think, think, you know, often it's addressed in some places, but not, you know, and through the lens of perhaps through the, the male lens. And that's the, the impact that pornography has on women not as the users themselves. And we know you've described a couple hundred women in your program.
- [59:55]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah.
- [59:56]
David Rutherford
But more importantly the women that are being exploited in these, these situations. What are your thoughts on that? And you know, what, what can we, how can we they be helped or how can they be awoken to what, what they're chained to, whether it's self loathing or the financial challenges or whatever it might be. What, how do you address that?
- [60:21]
Mason Cain
It's, it's so I, I tried for a really long time to figure this out. And God planted some things and some events that caused the cliff. One of them was a conversation with Joshua Broome, who, I don't know if you know who he is, but he was a performer. Now he's a pastor.
- [60:36]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [60:36]
Mason Cain
And he goes around and he shares his experience. And the conversation that him and I had were, was the two sides of the trap that was very intentionally crafted by the enemy.
- [60:48]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [60:49]
Mason Cain
And so when I started to understand his experience and I started to talk to a few other people that were on the content creation side of things, there was a lot of really, really undeniable consistencies from the consumer side of things as well, which is what I was on.
- [61:09]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [61:09]
Mason Cain
And so the, the same like I, I would, I would encourage anybody to consider that maybe the creation side is also some form of addiction as well.
- [61:19]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [61:20]
Mason Cain
And so you're, you're trying to live into an idea identity to get away from the way that you actually feel and think about yourself and some, some things that may have happened in your past. You get significance from this. You get a dopamine high from this.
- [61:37]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [61:37]
Mason Cain
You get to, to live into a manufactured identity that is separated from reality.
- [61:44]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [61:44]
Mason Cain
And so you'll, you'll like. A lot of the people that I've talked to from the performer side have gone like, I, I wanted a way out of this. I didn't want to continue doing this, but like, something just kept drawing me back in. I would go through a cycle of shame after, and then I'd find myself back in the very place that I swore I'd never be. What does that remind you of? It's an addiction cycle.
- [62:06]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [62:07]
Mason Cain
And just to throw this out there, because this word addiction is thrown around, I think a little bit loosely, and I'm guilty of it sometimes too. You may be experiencing the symptoms of an addiction, but you yourself are not an addict at the identity level. That's not who God created you to be.
- [62:24]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [62:24]
Mason Cain
And so, yes, we're talking about an addiction, but it's important to remember that if you're experiencing symptoms of that, it's not because you're an addict.
- [62:33]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [62:34]
Mason Cain
But that's the same thing that we're seeing on that side of things. And so the encouragement to the female or the male that is on the content creation side of things, they feel like it's out of alignment of maybe their moral values or like, you know, something a little bit bigger than themselves spiritually of what's going on in their lives. And they like, there's just this, this discontent of what they're doing and they know that there must be something more. I would encourage you to consider that there's some things in your past and there's, there's some healing of actual root issues in your life that maybe instead of trying to push down and run away from an escape from a performance standpoint or a content creation standpoint, like, turn back and like, let's look at those things, let's work through those. And that's. You'll. You'll find that that is the driving force of the behavior that you're in right now. Very similar.
- [63:34]
David Rutherford
I think that's a brilliant way to describe it. It is, it's an addiction on both sides, you know, so I think everybody wants it to be something as simplistic as financial. But when you look at the data right on only fans, approximately 3.5 million active creators worldwide. And then it's who are actively posting content, engaging with the platform, up from about 4.1 total million registered creators at the end of 2023, with growing into 2025. And then here's the thing. This was the thing I found fascinating is that, you know, total payouts to creators was 5.32 billion. But that was only the top, essentially the top 1%, which was about 35 to 41,000 people roughly earning 33% of all revenue in average of, of $49,000 annually. That's about 4,000 monthly. And then the top 10%, which was 350 to 410,000, earn about 73%. And that's around $11,000 annually, which is abysmal. Right. You know, everybody wants to talk about the big earners, but that's 0.1% of this entire group. Most people, people are not getting paid. Most people are not able to earn a living from it. So I think that, that, that trends towards what you're saying. What I'd love to see is a statistic that shows people coming on as creators, how long they last and then they fall off. Because I think that's where you start to see the idea of what you were talking about, the addiction playing out. Because if you're going on and you're making, you know, 80 bucks a month of creating content, you're doing it every day for two or three hours a day on your channel, you know, and you're still there, sick, 90, 120, 180 a year, two years into it. That's not about the money. Yeah, that's about that. Whatever it is inside, that desire to numb yourself or you know, feel wanted or whatever that is, that deep rooted thing. So manufacturing. Yeah, manufacturers. Oh, I love that term. That's fantastic. Can you explain that a little bit more, please?
- [66:01]
Mason Cain
Yeah, like if you. And what's interesting is this can also happen subconsciously.
- [66:06]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [66:06]
Mason Cain
And so if you analyze the truth of that self talk like your relationship with yourself, if you have an identity that is lower than you'd like, one of the just knee jerk, very low level thinking things that all humans do instinctively is they start to try to manufacture a facade of an identity of like who they really want to be.
- [66:29]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [66:29]
Mason Cain
And that's, that's not actually your identity. What you're doing is you're creating a li. Identity.
- [66:34]
Interviewer/Host
Right?
- [66:35]
Mason Cain
And it's, it's not based on truth, it's not based on who you are. It's based on the, it's actually based on just trying to escape who you don't want to be. And so now this identity is created as like, well, I'm, I'm a content creator and these people buy my stuff and like they, they are pursuing me, right? There's, there's a high that you get from that because it's, it's escaping from maybe some insecurity that you have, maybe some past of abandonment and trauma that you haven't worked through, right? And so it's, it's medicating the wounds that you haven't healed. The problem is there's consequences for creating a li identity, right? There's consequences for medicating those wounds with things that are not in alignment with God's intention for your life. And unfortunately, again, for these, like to caution some of these content creators, it's like, yes, there's grace, yes, there's mercy. There are also consequences. And sometimes when you put something on the Internet, it's on there forever. And we're hearing more and more stories of these content creators coming out and going like, I can't get this stuff off the Internet. And it horrifies me that it's going to be there permanently.
- [67:47]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [67:48]
Mason Cain
And then that's where we see suicides happen on that side of things too. Which is a, I don't know if you have any stats on that. I don't. It's a staggering number and I've had some conversations with some content creators that are now out of the industry that are outspoken about that. Joshua is one of them. And it's, it's like every day, every week, like somebody that they know has taken their life, life.
- [68:13]
David Rutherford
So that's sad. That's so sad. All right, Mason. I mean, this is a, a powerful thing that you're engaged in. And you know, you, you talk about the enemy. You know, how, how deep of a spiritual battle is this, do you think?
- [68:34]
Mason Cain
I think this is the most insidious, most aggressive attack on God's children that we've seen in modern day, like addiction as a whole. And then if we narrow down and just talk about the, using sex and using the pleasure from sex, as in lust as an attack from the mechanisms of pornography, from the mechanisms of massage parlors, from the mechanisms of purchasing sex, right? The, the numbers are staggering. I, I think that it's, it's the, the largest all out attack that we've seen in modern day. And I, I think the, the main thing that I like the, God's put on my heart to bring awareness to is that that is what it is.
- [69:24]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [69:25]
Mason Cain
And so we, we look at this from a lot of different contexts and like when we really take a step back and we really have a 30, 000 foot view of this. We see the enemy using all of the things that are appealing to your flesh to infiltrate your life and pull you away from who God created you to be and the calling that he placed in your life when he placed you here on earth. And so we talk about the attack on masculinity, the attack on, on manhood of these, these men stepping up and being the spiritual leaders while. Well, when you're trying, when you have a desire to step into the spiritual leader role that God's put on your heart, but then you also have this li identity in this life of lies and deception that you've created. And you start to tell yourself that you actually can't do that, right? It disables you from stepping into the role that God created you to fill. And so to me it's an all out spiritual attack. I think that the magnitude of this is beyond what most people see at this point. My hope is, is that you know, you're an eyes conversation and thank you for doing this. And any other conversation that God allows me to have is like he's just put on my heart to bring awareness to this and to continue speaking truth into the lies and shining light into the darkness, man. So I think that there's a lot of people trapped in this that just need to hear a message like this and, and then they need to be able to see other people that have actually conquered this. Not just from a standpoint of, of I resist my urges and I fight every day. But it's like no man, you can actually heal to a point where you don't feel like you're in a life and death battle with temptation every day. And like this battle is gone so that you can fight the actual war of the things that God put you on earth to do. But we gotta face, we gotta drive into this problem and this battle you got to drive into it to solve it. Stop trying to pray it away. You'll find that when you dive into it, it's actually a gift. And you're going to discover who you really are. When you face that darkness, you move into it and you become curious about why do I want to do things that I don't want to do. That's where the magic starts to happen and that's where God really on that path grabs a hold of you, gives you clarity in your purpose, gives you clarity in your mission and your assignment, and starts guiding you in a way that you never thought was possible.
- [71:50]
David Rutherford
Amen. Mason. Where can men around the world come and find you? And then where can they follow you and pay attention and contribute and where can they start to heal?
- [72:04]
Mason Cain
Yeah, there's a lot of great information on our website. It's just unchainedleader.com I would actually encourage you to just Google Unchained Leader. You can read some of the reviews. I think that's really helpful. We've, we have again a little over 9000 guys that have come through the program. A handful of them have been willing to publish a public testimony of like their story. You can find some of those on Google Reviews and we have some videos as well. And then Instagram is probably our biggest platform right now, but it's official underscore Mason Kane and that account has around 400000 followers right now. I just say that because you probably experience the same thing man, but people create, you know, fake accounts and stuff like that. So look for the one with like recent posts and at current date there's around 400,000 followers on that account.
- [72:52]
David Rutherford
Well, Mason, God bless you and the work you're doing. Thank you for all the, the men you've helped so far and, and I'm just honored to be able to give you a little bit of more of a platform to, to spread this word and to where we can bring these young men and, and women back into the fold and, and and help them discuss discovered their true selves and, and be faithful to God.
- [73:15]
Mason Cain
Awesome. David, it was a, it was a pleasure and I just again appreciate you for being willing to have this conversation, man. I think that the God will use this as a powerful tool to spread the kingdom.
- [73:26]
David Rutherford
Amen. Thank you. Ah, come on.
- [73:41]
Mason Cain
Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [73:44]
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Mason Cain
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- [73:59]
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- [75:46]
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- [76:41]
Podcast Host
This is an iHeart podcast.