← The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Fight for Justice: Freeing Navy SEAL Dusty Turner | Ep. 44
01:13:17
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iHeart Podcast Host
This is an iHeart podcast.
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Dave Portnoy
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- [00:34]
Jacob Goldstein
Terms and conditions apply.
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Dave Portnoy
Ah, come on.
- [00:36]
Jacob Goldstein
Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [00:39]
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Dave Portnoy
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- [02:58]
Dave Portnoy
In 1995, I entered basic underwater demolition seal training. And in the midst of going through training, there was a case that came out of Little Creek, Virginia and it was a case of, of, of two young SEAL recruits that had made it over to the teams who had gotten arrested for the murder of a young girl. Young college student vacationing. And I remember the impact that this had on our experience. I remember sitting in second phase and having our senior chief come in, came in and began to give us an ethics class. And it was one of the most impactful things I'd ever heard. And it was perplexing at the time that how two young boys who had just gone through the most difficult, arduous thing that you could go through would have a lapse of reasoning where they would kill somebody out of a fit of rage or some sexual desire. And I just couldn't wrap my mind around it. Well, since that time, this case has gotten a lot of attention back then, but it's died off. And as a result, so too has the hopes of Dusty Turner, a young man that has been incarcerated for this crime for over 20 plus years. And just the other day I was on my Instagram feed and I saw this free Dusty campaign that came across and after the second time I saw it, I clicked on it and I began to read the freedusty.com website and the fact that this young man is still in or this grown man is still incarcerated to this date. So what I wanted to do today is I wanted to bring the people who are responsible for this movement to bring awareness to it, to bring awareness to you so that hopefully in some way, shape or form, you can participate in bringing some justice to a young man that's already served his time. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to Martin Jens and Aaron Lottman. So thank you both so much for coming on the show.
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Jacob Goldstein
Thank you.
- [05:26]
Martin Jens
Thank you, Dave. It's good to be with you.
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Dave Portnoy
Martin, I'll start with you. How did you get involved with this? What were the circumstances? And why now are you investing so much of your time in trying to bring justice to Dusty?
- [05:48]
Martin Jens
Well, like so many of us, Dave. During the COVID quarantine period that we all went through back in 2020, I found myself at home looking for things to do and looking for stuff to watch as we were not allowed to get outside. And my wife and I came across the documentary that really pulled us into this whole thing and we, we watched it. And I'm not one to viscerally react to these things, but I found myself really having a tough time getting my head around what I saw and still see as a grave injustice to Dusty Turner. So I reached out to Dusty, I took it upon myself to write an old fashioned letter to him. And he responded to me. And I realized in his response this was a man that was intelligent, he was articulate. And then I began to do more and more research and came to know him better and I said okay, now I'm going to go visit him. Wow. And then I went to visit him. I took a flight, I live in Florida, took a flight up to Virginia and got to know him personally. And I said okay, I'm, I'm all in on this thing. There's more than one victim here in this case. Jennifer Evans. There's no question that she and her family suffered not because of Dusty's actions. And so we spent the last five years with a small group of us as advocates for Dusty to bring awareness to his case first and foremost. Which is why we're so thankful to be on with you today. But as importantly to give support to Dusty and his family and obviously in the hopes that we can get him out of what has been a torturous 30 years of incarceration. So that's what brings me, that's what brought me to it. It's the only thing I'm thankful for in Covid.
- [08:07]
Dave Portnoy
Wow. Think about that. I mean just in, in that travesty that that was. Which we still don't have answers to. Right. You know that you can find this incre documentary that's on prime if anybody wants to go watch this. Just type in Dusty Turner, Navy SEAL and it'll pop up. I just watched it last night and before we got on I was sharing with you, just you'd asked me how I was and you know, it was unsettling. And even though, you know the documentary filmmaker who's from the community, you know, and put together a really kind of non biased delivery of all the information, for me it was just, it was categorically just shown that he was innocent. Right? Yes. He didn't behave in the way he should. Have immediately afterwards. But I thought he painted an incredible picture of the pressure that he must have been under in that circumstance, you know, as well as this sensation of swim body mentality. And that's a real thing. And perhaps in a bit, you know, we can discuss that after Aaron delivers kind of the crux of what this is all about. So thank you for sharing that, Martin. Aaron, it's just a pleasure to meet you. I really am just. Thank you for doing what you're doing. I really appreciate it. Could you share the same thing? Like what got you involved in this and why is it such a personal thing for you?
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Jacob Goldstein
So in 1995, I was 20 years old. I am a local to the Virginia beach area. I was across the street at a different bar. I was underage. I was at an age bar. And then the days following, I saw that a young woman was missing and I, I saw myself in her or she, she was very much, you know, like my, my friends and the thoughts of that could have been me or, you know, my family. And then the subsequent media frenzy that followed, I, I read the newspapers. I mean, I didn't go to the trial, but it was very much in everybody's communication. If it was at work, I worked at a hotel. It was discussed there. It was discussed with my family and friends. It's everything that consumed us for a very long time. And so I come from a place where I was, I was not a supporter of Dusty in the beginning because of how the media portrayed him. And it wasn't until 2014, 15, when I watched the documentary and this is before it went on the streaming services, I went to the website and I read about what Dusty was doing at that time. I watched the documentary and from that point on, I felt compelled. I can't describe, certainly could be something from above, but I, I felt compelled to get involved. It took me some time to reach out to him because I never considered my. I never considered reaching out to anybody in prison. It's just something that I couldn't do. But I did it. I sent him an email and I just started the conversation with, you don't belong there, you don't belong in prison. And if there's anything that I can do to help, I would like to help you. And here we are. It's been six years that I can say that I've been his advocate. And not too long after that, Martin came along again because he had watched the documentary and Dusty kind of put us all together in a team and.
- [12:37]
Dave Portnoy
Yeah, yeah, that's, that you know, I mean, before we go down, kind of the evaluation of that divine interaction of all of you coming together on behalf of a young man who is languishing, probably unjustly, definitely unjustly, with, with his incarceration. Can you give the listeners, as quick as you can a synopsis of the story? And again, it doesn't have to be in two minutes at all. Take your time and, and, and, and really explain because I think, you know, one of the interesting things about what you said is when it first went down, you know, you were, yeah, he's guilty. He, he and Brown should be in there for life. I felt the same thing. I mean, we were, we were told one thing and you know, all the way, even through my entire eight years in the teams, you know, is always, yeah, those, you know, those, those, those jerks, they, they smeared our community. They smeared, they did. They should rot in prison forever. So you're not the only one. And I think, you know, a good portion of the, everybody that came across this story felt the same thing. So could you just give kind of an overview of what took place and then what has taken place since.
- [14:03]
Jacob Goldstein
Oh, gosh. So the night of June 18, 1995, two young Navy SEALs who were going through their final, they call SEAL Tactical Training STT.
- [14:17]
Dave Portnoy
Right. Yep.
- [14:19]
Jacob Goldstein
They went to a local nightclub and Dusty met a nice young woman and.
- [14:28]
Dave Portnoy
She, she liked Dusty. Right. They were having a great evening together and, and as I remember, as the documentary said, like things were going great and, and, but unfortunately Brown, who was a notorious alcoholic and a violent guy, somehow ended up in the car with him. Is. Is that correct?
- [14:50]
Jacob Goldstein
Yes, eventually. So he wanted to be alone with Jennifer Evans and spend time alone. And so he found a ride, another ride to take Billy home because he had been drinking, because he knew he'd be obnoxious. He secured a ride home back to the barracks and at the end of the night, after he found, found a ride, they realized they didn't have enough time to do what they had planned, which was to walk on the beach. So they decided to hang out, wait for the friends that were supposed to return at 2 o' clock and, and listen to music because they, at that point they, I think they only had 10 minutes before they were to show up. And, and Billy Brown, who was tired of wanting to wait for his ride, he decided he was going to try to find Dusty. And he found his way to the car and he got in and he said a lot of inappropriate things to Jennifer, which initially she ignored. But once either she, he either touched her shoulder or touched her hair. She swatted his hand away and that is when he erupted in violence and. And a. What is described as very. Martin's probably the better person at describing.
- [16:23]
Martin Jens
Yeah, it's hard to talk about. So he was in the back seat of a two door car and it was a small vehicle. Jennifer was in the passenger seat, Dusty was in the driver's seat. They were waiting for her friends to come pick her up. They were listening to music. Billy came out, he was inebriate, got in the back seat of the vehicle and as Aaron just described, he was pretty obnoxious to. And she did what any self respecting woman would do if you get touched on the air or the shoulder. She slapped his hand. Good on her for doing it. He was in the back seat and he immediately threw his forearm around the headrest around her neck and he had all the leverage. He was 218 pounds, 6 foot 3. He'd just been through SEAL training. He was a strong, strong man. And instantaneously ended Jennifer's life. And that was the first domino that fell in the horrific events to follow. So that was the seminal event that caused all of this to happen. And he immediately realized what he had done even though he was pretty inebriated and told Dusty to drive and just get out of there. So that's when they left. It was the first really fatal mistake in judgment that was made, but it was what he had been trying to do. He was like, okay, I got to support my, my team, buddy. Let's get out of here. And they went and hid Jennifer's body about 40 miles away. And then over the next eight days, Dusty was consumed with, as anybody can imagine with any empathy or conscience. He was consumed with guilt at bay. He was, he was in a dilemma. He was either going to give up his friend for what he had done.
- [18:39]
Dave Portnoy
And they had, they were in buds together, they had been rolled back together. They went through every. They were, they were dive buddies. They were, they were together at the same team. Like they were, they were simpatico, right? They were, they were very, very.
- [18:55]
Martin Jens
Yeah. And you would know this better than I do, David. You know, it's very unusual when they go through. They, they start out together. They were the same height, 6 foot 3. So they were put on the same boat teams, they were swim buddies. They got rolled back because of the, because of injuries. They, I think they lasted two classes later and then they were put, they were assigned Seal Team 4 and both went to Seal Team 4. So they it probably is not what you normally see and you can opine on that, but, but I don't think that's a, that standard procedure.
- [19:31]
Dave Portnoy
Yeah, I mean I got rolled twice in training. I mean I must have seen. I was in from class 205, 206, 208, 209, you know, so just hundreds of guys coming and going and even the guys that I went through hell week with in 08, you know, I got rolled into 209. Some of those guys I never saw again. Right. In their entire careers. So it just, that was for me one of the really fascinating aspects of this whole thing. And then the other aspect I think that really kind of popped for me in this was, you know, when you do learn their backgrounds and Dusty was 20 at the time, right. And, and Brown was a little older than he was. Right. Because he, he had done some college and he had been in Coast Guard, gotten kicked out of the Coast Guard.
- [20:22]
Jacob Goldstein
And you know, I don't think he went to college.
- [20:25]
Dave Portnoy
Oh, he didn't do any college time. Okay, all right. I thought in the documentary he'd said that, but so he, you know, you as a younger team guy, I remember, you know, one making it through like Dusty did it at 18 years old. I mean that, that the 18 year olds are usually their, their dropout rate is in the high 90s because it's just so overwhelming. The mental impact of, of of that program, the maturity that's required and the fact that he was able to do that is pretty remarkable. But one of the things that I would see in particular when I became an instructor for what STT became sqt was you would see the younger guys look up to some of the more, the stronger guys or the guys that were when we'd go out or they'd go out, the tougher guys or the guys that you just kind of like, all right, I'm not sure what I need to be right now in my life, but this guy kind of represents the mentality that I was just indoctrinated to for how, you know, the year plus they were in buds together. And it does create an uncommon bond. And that bond, you know, is much more intense than anything I've ever experienced even, even playing D1A D1 sport in college. It's nothing is, is, is like that bond. So you know, as you're listening to this and you, you think, well, if I had just watched someone I know kill somebody, I would have just pulled the car over, got out in the car. It's not like that you are so conditioned. I mean, in buds you can't even go to the bathroom by yourself. Everything is driven upon this swim buddy mentality. And so that's the one thing that I think is critical to allow yourself to understand in this young man who had just achieved a dream. He's in this predicament and he just watched this, you know, this, you know, guy who he's seen, you know, get in many, many fights prior, kill this woman. I mean, the fear, the confusion, all of that I think is, is, is important to understand as, as you think about this. So I'm sorry, Martin. I just wanted to just give it a little context for people.
- [22:44]
Jacob Goldstein
We appreciate that.
- [22:46]
Martin Jens
Yeah, it's great context and, and I think it gets lost on the average civilian like myself.
- [22:54]
Dave Portnoy
One more point. Can I add, you know, you know, when I was, you know, I grew up, you know, in southeast Florida and you know, I barely, I don't think I ever got in a real fight my whole life. And you know, you go into this, this community and the entire thing is a derivative of violence, right? And really high level violence. And, and so, you know, you, when you are around other people that have maybe where, however they grew up, they were, they faced it more, they were part of it more. There's almost this estimation that, you know, it's like, oh man, if I'm not violent enough or if I don't support my buddy in the bar or something like that, you're almost like, oh, they're gonna find me out. Like you're worried about that mental. At least I was like, I was, I was worried that I didn't have the background. I wasn't a true fighter. I didn't grow up on a street. I wouldn't, you know, I didn't grow up in a troubled home or anything like that. And from my understanding, you know, Dusty had that life. You know, he was, you know, played sports, an accomplished athlete. He was a boy scout. He was, you know, a good looking young man. Everybody liked him. He had this wonderful personality. And so, you know, when I hear this story and I, you know, I think of that pressure, that pressure to lean into that, that world of violence or as, as my, my therapist so aptly describes it as the cult death culture, right? It's just woven into it. And so that can be very intense if you're not used to it. You don't come from something. Not, not saying death is built into everybody's background, but just that intensity, right? It's the, the reflection of violence of Society's violence, that kind of seeds into many guys who go through the program. So. All right, I've talked too much. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
- [24:55]
Martin Jens
No, I think that's. It's important to understand, you know, the mentality. I think even in the documentary, Dusty points out that he's in. He's been. He was in bar fights that he didn't. He didn't even know what he was fighting about. So I think that sort of exemplifies what you're saying. And he is, if, you know the man today, he's not a man. He, you know, he's not a man to be trifled with, but he's not a man that is prone to violence. That's not his. That's not in his DNA. I don't think, you know, just having come to know him over these last few years. But so they, you know, they, they went about their business this following week. Dave. And actually, Dusty had a. Had an accident during training. I think a gun misfired on him, and he was injured. So this sort of. There was some compounding trauma here on top of the anguish that he was going through with what had just happened. And eventually he decided, based on the instruction of his warrant officer, to come clean and tell the story about what happened and which he did. And, you know, he was led to believe that if he did that, everything would be okay, but it wasn't. And so he told the story to the authorities. And Billy Brown realized that Dusty had violated some of this unwritten code of ratting him out. And he then began to tell his own version of the story, which we subsequently find out in early 2000 was a manufactured truth to implicate Dusty. But unfortunately, it was too late by then. And that really is the sort of the crux of the injustice that has occurred these many years later. Aaron, I don't know if you want to add to that.
- [27:15]
Dave Portnoy
Aaron, can you talk a little bit about the initial case and that battle that must have been going on because you had a prosecutor that was apparently, you know, the, the, the, the guy went after the big capital murder cases.
- [27:31]
Jacob Goldstein
Yeah.
- [27:32]
Dave Portnoy
And then you had, you had two defense attorneys that were essentially pitted against each other and the prosecution. Can you describe that dynamic a little bit? You don't need $1,000 to buy Bitcoin. You just need a plan. Kraken lets you set up recurring buys so you can build your position over time, invest on your schedule, not the market's, set it and forget it. Kraken handles the rest download Kraken and get $10 in Bitcoin. After your first trade of $10 or more, just enter code IHEART10 under Add Invite Code when you sign up.
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Jacob Goldstein
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- [28:11]
Dave Portnoy
Crypto trading involves risk of loss and.
- [28:12]
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- [28:14]
Martin Jens
Terms and conditions apply.
- [28:15]
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- [28:46]
Martin Jens
This is.
- [28:46]
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- [31:02]
Jacob Goldstein
You have the lead prosecutor. There was two, two prosecutors and one he was trying to make a name of himself. He was known to get all the high profile cases. And then you have two defense attorneys who Dusty had one who was ending his career, who was close to retirement and then the other one who also was trying to make a name for himself. He's subsequently a judge today in Virginia Beach. A lot of people, a lot of the characters in this case moved on to bigger and better things because of this. Everyone got a notch on their belt, including the prosecutor who subsequently went on to the court of appeals and was in place when Dusty was going through his writ of actual innocence. He recused himself. But I should back up a little bit to the original trial. And you know, you have a case with no evidence. This is 100% circumstantial case. And so what they have to do is convince a jury, what can I, what can we do? What can we say to convince a jury? And so they use Billy Brown's testimony. They use one of his stories because he told multiple different stories. And so they use one of them that kind of would fit into, of said they could prosecute two, two of them. And so they use one of the stories and, and that was that they both, they both were involved. And I think I need to give some kudos to JD the documentary because he has, he has stated that it does not make sense that two Navy SEALs because the prosecution's case was that they planned, this is a plan thing, they had sex on their mind. And this was all about raping Jennifer Evans and taking her away and abducting her. So you have two Navy SEALs that plan this. They're going to go to a club that, that others would recognize them. They had ex one, Billy Brown's ex girlfriend worked there and actually she's the one that called Crime Stoppers. And then Dusty would show his ID to multiple to the victim and her friends and then, then try to solidify a ride for Billy Brown. Who's supposed to be committing this crime with him. So you're. None of it makes, makes sense. But they were able to convince the jury that, you know, using as much salacious in a salacious way and to demonize him. And that's what happened. They told a story, they created a theory and the jury bought it. And this unfortunately happens every day. Dusty is not the only one that's slang. Wishing in prison right now. I mean this is why we're here today is to talk about Dusty. But there's so many people like Dusty that.
- [34:24]
Dave Portnoy
Thousands. Thousands, yes.
- [34:27]
Jacob Goldstein
And it's so easy to get a conviction. And that's what a lot of people don't realize is that it is so easy to get a conviction. It's all about how they present it, how, how much, how much drama they bring to the courtroom. And that's how they get a conviction. It's so easy to convict, it's terribly hard to, to exonerate.
- [34:53]
Dave Portnoy
And that's why it's almost like the whole mentality of, of innocent until proven guilty in the modern era has just been flipped. Right. Because whoever's more performative, whoever can put on the better show, whoever can wow the audience. I mean look at the O.J. simpson case. I mean that's one of the most prolific ones there is or Bill Cosby or whoever. You know, a lot of these high profile cases, once you have this massive public attention and you know, you get the media involved who are desperate in terms of views and selling newspapers and like you said, the more salacious it can be, the more eyes you get is more paper you sell. So what's going to say, oh yeah, we're going to run with this thing that's part of the story, there's no proof and just go broke. What were some of the things that you. That really stand out for you as just, just travesties of, of that initial.
- [35:53]
Martin Jens
Trial for Dusty, there are a few things. So the Billy's story would require somebody to believe that a 6 foot 3 man could and the person he was allegedly raping would fit between the seats. Was it a geostorm?
- [36:18]
Dave Portnoy
Yeah, Geostorm, Yeah.
- [36:20]
Martin Jens
Geostorm, yeah. The space between the two front seats is probably about 7 or 8 inches wide. It defies imagination how somebody might be able to do that. But the jury was never able to see the vehicle. They asked to see the vehicle and they were never able to see the vehicle. They created a mock up of it as you saw in the documentary, that didn't have the shell of the vehicle. Wasn't actually in the courtroom. So zeros were. Couldn't imagine in their mind's eye how confined that space would be if they were able to see it, then it would be implausible or very hard to believe the story that they had been told about Barry. So that's one. There was.
- [37:20]
Dave Portnoy
What about blood, body fluids, hair sales, all that.
- [37:25]
Martin Jens
So body fluids. So one of the things that did occur. This is probably more graphic perhaps, than some of your listeners might want to hear, but when, When Billy Brown committed the act of killing Jennifer Evans, see urinated in the front seat. We know that to be a fact because of testimony subsequent. But what we don't know is where those front. Where the front seat was. There's no forensic evidence that was the forensic evidence that would prove that to have happened. It was unavailable. Dusty's legal representation of the time chose to make the decision to use the state's forensic evidence and not do their own forensic analysis. Clearly, had they done that and had they checked the front seat, it would have cast a much different picture on what happened and the timing of what happened. So, you know that those are the two things that. I mean, there's a cascading set of things that go beyond that, but those are two that stand out as being significant. And then, of course, they chose to put Dusty on the stand. And I think any, any lawyer would tell you that putting somebody that's convicted of murder on the stand is never a good strategy. So, you know, I'm not a lawyer, but, you know, I don't think that's something that is recommended most of the time. So there's a few things here that just have.
- [39:18]
Dave Portnoy
Have either one of Dusty about that moment when he went on the stand and what his state of mind was, what. Whether, you know, have you had any conversation like that, like that about with him?
- [39:34]
Jacob Goldstein
I have not recently. I know that a lot of it he doesn't remember. He remembers, you know, the state of how he felt and how his family was, you know, what they were going through. You know, he left a lot of the decisions, you know, up to his lawyer and to his family. You know, I. I don't have a. A really good answer of, you know, what. What was in his mind at that time. I think a lot of. A lot of it is a blur for him.
- [40:16]
Dave Portnoy
I can't imagine.
- [40:17]
Jacob Goldstein
Yeah.
- [40:18]
Dave Portnoy
Just can't even imagine the pressure of that here. Your whole life is. Is crumbling. And the other aspect, too is like you're trying to do the right thing, right? You finally, you go to your warrant, you go to your chain of command. You confess that you participated in, you know, and, you know, placing the body out in the woods. But, you know, you know it's wrong, it's weighing on you. You know, you confess and no matter what you do, it just gets worse and worse and worse. And kind of that spiral that is, that can happen in, in the justice system. And once, once, you know, the, I guess it's once the narrative. What's the old saying that a lie can make or make it around the world before anybody knows it's true? Right. And I think, you know, that's what happened to this young man and his, you know, just, you know, you're also one of the other components that, you know, you go through this training, man, you are programmed. And if you get into a position where somebody's of authority like his defense attorney was and, you know, just the limited, you know, they, they portray him in the, the documentary, it's, here's this old guy who's been accomplished attorney, he's been practicing law in the area for, for decades and decades, a stellar reputation. And I got it. It's all right. Trust me. I'm going to take care of it. And his parents are then, you know, telling Dusty, no, he's good and he don'. You know, he's. You just go along with it just like he went along with the other component. I mean, it. I think it really embodies the confusion that, that he was, you know, that he was faced with and not knowing how to advocate for himself, not knowing how to stand up, you know, and I think about probably a significant portion of that was imbued in this profound guilt that he had on his heart from, from the whole circumstance.
- [42:25]
Jacob Goldstein
Yeah, he, he definitely. That whole time period was extremely overwhelming. He was just going through the motions. You know, his mom had sensed it, sensed it in a. Phone conversations and when they, you know, the FBI came and then, you know, the interview with Virginia beach police. And once his warrant officer asked him to tell him what happened, after he told his warrant officer what happened, he felt an immense relief that he was able to get it off his chest. And his warrant officer reached out to jag and JAG came back and said, well, this is a civilian problem. And so they really. Yes. They never had any interaction with.
- [43:31]
Dave Portnoy
Not once?
- [43:31]
Jacob Goldstein
No.
- [43:32]
Dave Portnoy
They didn't offer to provide him with an attorney or counsel or nothing?
- [43:38]
Jacob Goldstein
No. And so. No. So he came back to Dusty and said, this is a civilian matter. Go ahead and answer these five questions that the Police want to tell you. So Dusty kind of took this as an order and he spoke to the police, he told them. Exactly. Again, he retold the story to the police.
- [43:58]
Martin Jens
I think, I think an important point just to. Let me just interject here for just a second. Dusty was shocked that he thought he would need a lawyer at this point because he had been led to believe that he just needed to come clean and it would be okay. So he was shocked. He said, do you think I need a lawyer?
- [44:25]
Dave Portnoy
Oh my God.
- [44:26]
Jacob Goldstein
Yeah. It was after he agreed to show the police and the Warrant Officer 1 as well, to show where Jennifer, where Jennifer was at. And it was at the end of the day going back to A.P. hill and as warrant officer told him, you probably should get a lawyer.
- [44:46]
Dave Portnoy
Oh my gosh. Well, that's not the first time I've, I've heard that before. And in the military, just about every unit out there as well too. It's just such a, you just think about this, this young man and granted, and again, if, if Jennifer's family is listen, or if you listen to this, my most sincerest condolences. I have four daughters. I don't know what I would do if this happened to me. I'm so sorry for your loss. Even to this day, it never goes away. And I hope you don't believe it. Any of us are trying to be inconsiderate. All we're trying to do is just bring some light to this other young man who was caught in this situation with somebody that, you know, arguably, at a minimum, has sociopathic tendencies at a maximum, could be quantified as a psychopath. Speaking of this, you know, can either one of you just talk a little bit about Brown and who he was and his demeanor throughout this, this trial and investigation, the whole thing.
- [45:56]
Martin Jens
Well, I, I can offer up my two cents. I, I have, I've never had any interaction with Brown, so I, I don't know the man on a one to one level. My, all of my opinions about Brown are based on anecdotal information. But I would say your, your description of who he is and his, his behavioral tendencies, it certainly resonates and I think probably appropriately characterizes what the man's about.
- [46:37]
Dave Portnoy
What's interesting is, is, and I found this out later on as I, you know, was trying to really kind of dissect or, or try and understand the programming that's, that's evolved over 80 years. Right. And you think about the, the quality of, of soldier or sailor that, that the special operations training produces and Then they're the best in the world, you know, and I, I'm, you know, I'm more proud of, you know, there's probably nothing other than, you know, my wife and my children that I'm more proud to be a part of than, than being a, a Navy SEAL and, and going through that training, being exposed to it. But I'm not naive either and I understand what the intention is and, and, and, and, and what they're looking for in young men in particular. And, and part of the attributes and, and traits they're looking for, they, they fit into that kind of, let's call it a sociopathic tendencies. If, you know, probably not true fundamental sociopath, but, you know, that's who they're looking for. They're looking for that type of person that can allow a level of either moral relativism to take control or most certainly a level of cognitive dissonance that is kind of integrated into the core psychology of the individual. Right. You have to have it. I mean, I have some friends that have 800 combat missions and you're not telling me that there aren't some of those tendencies to be able to go to war that often that much and, and still be able to keep going back and, and to perform at a high level. Right. So it's, it's built in, it's who they're kind of looking for is, is, is that individual who can disassociate themselves, if you will, from, from some to become somewhat predictive in their ability to, to engage it at a high level in violence. Right. There's a reason why one of our predominant orders is, is violence of action. Right. And they're training us to be in that capacity. So if you already have, are predisposed for it in some capacity, and then all of a sudden now you're trained into it to a whole nother degree. Man. You're in many cases, you're like a ticking time bomb. Right? It's just what is the circumstance that's going to hit you, what time it is, and then what level of reaction are you going to get? And I'll never forget my, my CEO one time we were at, when I was at Team One. Wonderful guy. Unbelievable. Probably one of the best leaders I've ever had. We were getting reamed out by our command master chief because a guy at another team had gone down to Tijuana and gotten into a big bar fight down there on the streets and you know, very kind of typical behavior for, for that era and time in the teams and, and as we're being lectured and finally the, the CEO stepped up and he said, well, look, all right, gentlemen, here's the deal. I do understand you can't feed a tiger milk, but don't get caught, you know, that kind of mentality. And it was like, all right, that's kind of a mixed bag. But all right, I hear what you're saying, Roger that. You know, and it is this difficult thing that you're doing, right? You're, you're, you're, you're, you're imprinting a level of intensity into young men who are the most vulnerable age groups ever in history for that type of priming. I mean, why do you think young men are the men who die in wars throughout history? Right? It's because they're easier to lift up, get fired up and send them into combat. And that's just the nature of, of us as individuals during that time frame. So for me, it's, it's almost like, all right, you know, after Dusty begins to repent in his mind and try and get through this for, for the community not to support him fully at least by providing him with a JAG attorney. Right. Even, even if the JAG attorney wasn't even, he still is the only one that could be able to articulate that, that concept.
- [51:06]
Jacob Goldstein
Absolutely.
- [51:08]
Dave Portnoy
In a court of law. Because that, that, I'm sorry, but a 70 year old attorney, no matter how brilliant they are, cannot surmise that in front of a jury and give it the credibility that you would have a JAG officer. Do you guys know, were any of Dusty's senior leadership brought in to give character assessments of him or any of his teammates?
- [51:36]
Jacob Goldstein
No, no. His attorney did not call a lot of character witnesses in. Yeah, yeah, no, not at all.
- [51:47]
Dave Portnoy
That's staggering to make.
- [51:48]
Jacob Goldstein
Yeah.
- [51:51]
Dave Portnoy
All right, let's fast forward a little bit now. And when was there there, when did Brown come out and essentially get on the stand and admit what he had done? What year was that?
- [52:04]
Jacob Goldstein
That was in 2008. That was in 2008. But it was in 1999, 2000, when he told his attorney and mother that, that he lied and that Dusty had nothing to do with the crime. And his attorney told no one.
- [52:23]
Dave Portnoy
His attorney didn't say a word.
- [52:24]
Jacob Goldstein
Billy Brown's attorney told nobody. And it wasn't until 2002, Dusty was out on the wreck yard and a guy who had just transferred there and said, hey, did you know Billy Brown is telling everybody that, that he lied and that you're innocent. And he was like, what he goes, yeah, you didn't hear Billy Brown. He, he's, he's a Christian and he has come out with the full confession. And so his mother scrambled to get an attorney in that area to go get an affidavit. And it took six more years to get in in court.
- [53:11]
Dave Portnoy
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- [56:23]
Martin Jens
Years and to to get a writ of actual innocence, which is a in Virginia, it's sort of a one and done, one shot deal to rehear your case in front of a panel of judges and present new and compelling evidence as to why you're innocent. And so that's what happened. In 2008, he had a writ hearing and it was the first time in Virginia history where he was found to be actually innocent. Where someone was found to be actually innocent without physical evidence. It was based solely on the confession of Billy Brown on the stand.
- [57:17]
Dave Portnoy
And who was the judge and what was the outcome of that? Obviously Dusty's still incarcerated. So what happened next?
- [57:25]
Jacob Goldstein
So when you apply for a writ of actual innocence, the court of appeals puts it on the lower courts, the ones that convicted it. So the circuit court to do the fact finding. So it was a Virginia beach judge. So the same court that convicted him was a judge that ruled that Dusty that this case was solely circumstantial and that he ruled that Billy Brown was the perpetrator and that Dusty had no role in the crime itself. And at two days after that ruling is when the attorney general. I'm sorry. No, no, I'll take, I gotta back up here. The court of appeals and affirmed that court said that court's decision. And then once the court of appeals affirmed that decision, the attorney general spoke up two days later. So at that point he's essentially exonerated. He should be going home.
- [58:31]
Dave Portnoy
But the attorney general night, that night he should be out of prison.
- [58:35]
Jacob Goldstein
Yes. And if you see if anybody else is going through the writ process they go home. But the attorney general stepped in and said, now that's not what we want here. They appealed that decision. And so then it went to the higher court, which is the appellate, you know, the appellate courts, they call the court of appeals en banc. And there was a judge who put forward a theory which I, you know, it's really hard for us non legal law people to really understand, but didn't even think it's possible that you can just come up with a new theory that was never tested against a jury that, you know, essentially Dusty is in prison today. They have, they acknowledge the fact that he hasn't committed the murder, but because Virginia has a felony murder doctrine, if you, you can be held liable if there's another. If they can prove that another felony occurred. Meaning the abduction. Yep. And that's what, why he's being held here. That there, there was, there was no abduction. There was no abduction.
- [59:49]
Dave Portnoy
She got in the car willfully with him.
- [59:51]
Jacob Goldstein
Yeah. So they saying that it is because of deception that Dusty deceived her and to get her to come to the car.
- [60:01]
Dave Portnoy
Who is the Attorney general that did this? What's his name?
- [60:06]
Jacob Goldstein
I can't think of his. For his first name. It's met. No, I, I would have to look, I would have to look up.
- [60:16]
Dave Portnoy
That's all right. Why don't you look it up? Martin something. So Martin, as this goes back to the Attorney General, Attorney General goes to the Ombach, the en banc process, the judge comes back with this new, you know, sham argument that, that he coerced this, this young lady into the, into the vehicle. And, and have you talked to Dusty? What was his reaction in that moment? I mean, was, did you, have you ever, have you ever had that kind of discussion with him where he opened up about stuff like that for you with you?
- [60:54]
Martin Jens
I haven't, I have not had that conversation with him, David. I'm sure, I'm sure. Aaron has he celebrated the articles. Yeah, well, certainly when he celebrated when he was found actually innocent.
- [61:08]
Dave Portnoy
Right.
- [61:09]
Martin Jens
But when it was overturned, it was, by the way, it took three more years for it to get overturned by the Supreme Court. Three more.
- [61:15]
Dave Portnoy
Three years.
- [61:16]
Martin Jens
Three more years. So the overturned. It was overturned in 2011.
- [61:22]
Dave Portnoy
And.
- [61:24]
Martin Jens
If, do I have that right, Aaron?
- [61:25]
Jacob Goldstein
Was it 2010 or 1108 was the evidentiary hearing? 09 is when Court of Appeals affirmed. 2010 or 11, 2010 is when the en. Bach made their decision. And then 11 was when the, the Supreme Court affirmed the. Yeah, yeah.
- [61:51]
Dave Portnoy
Do you have, Aaron, can you Tell us.
- [61:54]
Jacob Goldstein
So William Mims was, he had a short term in Virginia at the time. He was filling in for an another who went out for other reasons. And he is the one that appealed the decision. And then right before the, the court, the Supreme Court of Virginia made their decision. He was put in a seat there on the Supreme Court.
- [62:27]
Dave Portnoy
Okay, so he's a current acting.
- [62:30]
Jacob Goldstein
Not anymore. Not anymore. But around the time, around the time that Dusty was going through this process, he, he, he was, he was a, an Attorney general. And then while he was, while thus he was going through this whole process, he was appointed to the Supreme Court of Virginia.
- [62:51]
Dave Portnoy
Do you have the names of those justices that made that decision? Can you get those?
- [62:55]
Jacob Goldstein
I could give you. Yeah, I could get a list of those.
- [62:58]
Dave Portnoy
Yeah.
- [62:59]
Jacob Goldstein
And the one that put forward this theory which is.
- [63:02]
Dave Portnoy
Yep, I would like all those names and then we'll post those on the notes of the show so people can go and see where this travesty who's responsible for this continuing. So I want to, I want to make sure that that's known.
- [63:19]
Jacob Goldstein
Yeah.
- [63:19]
Dave Portnoy
And if these people have moved up into higher office or wherever they're at, I want them to be accessible too once this starts to gain some greater steam out there and people get behind Dusty. So, Martin, you were going to say something. I cut you off. I'm sorry.
- [63:36]
Martin Jens
Yeah, just. Well, just a little interesting nuance about, you know, the, the justification for over overturning. There was one word in the, in the decision as it was written that a reasonable juror could believe that Dusty was trying to deceive Jennifer Evans and therefore the deception in and of itself was a felony. What's interesting, that's a very high bar. Right. So you could believe is sort of. Yeah, maybe I could, maybe I couldn't.
- [64:17]
Dave Portnoy
Right.
- [64:18]
Martin Jens
That's since been changed. In fact, I think it changed in 2013 or 2014 where a reasonable juror actually would believe. So the bar was raised to a point where you'd actually have to believe that he was trying to deceive her. Well, if you look at the actions that he took that night, where he was selling his id, he was open, he was sharing his phone number. They weren't trying to hide anything if they were trying to deceive people. You don't do it by giving, providing an open book about who you are.
- [64:59]
Dave Portnoy
Especially in a public setting like a bar in VA Beach, 100% where everybody around you has some affiliation with the community in some way, shape or form. Right. The, the, the waitresses have dated team Guys, the, the bartenders all know every team guy because every team guy has a favorite bar they go and do every day.
- [65:20]
Jacob Goldstein
There's a team guy working the door.
- [65:23]
Dave Portnoy
At every single place. Or a Virginia beach police officer that was a team guy and knows everybody out there. Right. Or you know, I mean, it's just, it's just asinine. It's asinine. What it sounds like to me is it sounds like you had the most, one of the most high profile cases in Virginia beach history. And they got two, you know, capital offense murder convictions on these two Navy SEALs gone rogue. And they prosecuted it this fabricated entire case got what they wanted. They all, as you said, Aaron, they've all benefited from the success of the case in some capacity and their ambition. Right? And it would behoove the state of Virginia, the Attorney General, whomever is affiliated with these people. Because you have to know everybody knows each other, right? Everybody knows the DAs from each county. Everybody knows the judges. The judges all know each other because they all want to climb the hill and get to that Supreme Court bill it, right? They all know each other. And so to be able to, you know, get in there and protect this whole thing. So nobody's made into a mockery of just the, the, the, the, the just blatant disregard for, for this young man's civic rights. Really, I think it's a civil rights violation. I mean that's, that's what I hope ends up coming out of you guys have a civil rights suit once he gets out of this. Because this is, this is an abomination in my, in my opinion for sure. All right, let's just, let's pivot a little bit. Obviously all of this when, when, when the documentary came out, how much attention did it get? And, and you know, how powerful is this for you guys right now in terms of, of awareness and the name of the documentary for everybody is Navy SEAL Murderer Framed Target of Opportunity. And you can find that on Amazon Prime.
- [67:41]
Jacob Goldstein
You know, initially it, they had a, the filmmaker and some people that were involved, like he was head of public. I forgot what the name of his title was. Were invited Public Safety. We're invited to the, the opening of. Of it at a local theater. You know, he's taken it to a couple, I don't even know what you call them.
- [68:16]
Martin Jens
Production companies.
- [68:19]
Jacob Goldstein
Yeah, yeah. You know, for the most part. You know, a lot. This is the thing, a lot of people haven't heard of it. It's usually they, they, they stumble on the documentary randomly and, and it, it's it's, it's hard, it's hard to find, honestly. There are, there's a couple other streaming services now that is, is showing it and, and, and that's also, it's on Peacock.
- [68:46]
Dave Portnoy
I mean I'm a team guy. This happened during me. I know the story intimately. I didn't even know that the documentary existed until I found you guys went to the site and then found.
- [68:55]
Jacob Goldstein
Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah.
- [68:57]
Dave Portnoy
I didn't even know it was out there. It's just, I, I couldn't believe as I'm watching it last night going, how come I, I didn't know? And I, you know, I'm, I like to think I'm, I'm pretty aware of the community and what's going on. I mean I've interviewed dozens of seals. You know, my best friend, Sean Ryan has the biggest, you know, one of the biggest podcasts in the world. All he does is interview operate. So I pay attention to the community and I'd never even seen it or heard about it.
- [69:26]
Jacob Goldstein
Yeah, it really honestly, you know, I feel bad that it hasn't. I mean, I think Doug Lee, who did the documentary is happy. It's out there. It's proof, it's truth that's out there. And I think that the more people that here, well that's, that's our hope is that more people will hear, watch it and get involved and, and demand justice because that's, that's what we need. We need a movement of people and, and shining more light on this case. And, and I, it's, it's, it's time.
- [70:04]
Dave Portnoy
It'S before, before we get there. Can you guys just on an individual level, can you just describe who Dusty is in your opinion? Can you describe through the interaction that you've had with him through everything, just who you believe this man is? And just give us, give the listener some context. Martin, would you go first for me?
- [70:27]
Martin Jens
Yeah. So I've come to know Dusty in five years, but I feel like I've known him a lifetime because that's how he makes you feel when you get to know him. He's a man who is steadfast in what he believes. I'd like to say I have a buddy of mine that has a saying. He says he, I don't know if he's hard headed, but he's damn sure convinced of a thing or two and he's convinced of his innocence and I'm convinced of his innocence. I know Dusty to be a compassionate, caring individual. He speaks to his mother every Day. There's not many guys his age speak to their moms every day. He cares about the people that he cares about, and he's a mentor to everybody. I'm also working with somebody here locally that was a cellmate of his in Bradenton, Florida. The guy was in and out of prison for 25 years. He became a cellmate to Dusty. He was released, and he has not been back in prison. And he attributes it to what he gained from spending time with Dusty. That's just one example of the impact that he has when you get to know the individual that he is. And so the longer I spend in support of who Dusty is, in support of his circumstance, the more convinced I'm doing the right thing, not just for him, but for anybody that comes into contact with him. He's a great human being that made a terrible mistake in judgment one evening, and God knows I've made a few myself. I wish I'd been. I'm lucky to not have been in those circumstances. So, like, he's. He's a guy worth fighting for, and so we're going to continue to do that.
- [72:32]
Dave Portnoy
Thank you, Martin. I appreciate that. Aaron.
- [72:36]
Jacob Goldstein
You know, Dusty, I would consider my best friend. He. We went through the pandemic together. Loss of the family members. He lost his. His father and his grandmother. And I lost my bestest dog that I had. Yeah. And he. He has. He always seems to say the right things. The. He always seems to have the right words to say to make you feel better. He has enriched my life. I. You know, anytime I make, you know, important decisions, he helps me through it. I am close to his family because of him. The people around him on the inside, the correctional officers and other inmates all respect him. You know, I think that's something that's really important for people to understand in a place that is full of criminals. Dusty sticks out, but he's respected by everybody in there. And I think, you know, partly, maybe it's because they know he doesn't belong, but he. He's not showy. He cares about people that he shares a cell with, and he cares about the people around him, and he diffuses a lot of the angst inside. Currently, he is a peer mentor, and he. I mean, I was talking to on the phone just last week, and. And there was. Something was happening. I could hear it, and it was a correctional officer that was getting a little bit. Probably was saying too much, and Dusty actually defused that situation so that the CO was able to calm down and so was the. The inmate. He is a. I just wish that you know, people who you know may be a little bit on one side. I really wish that everybody could get a piece and to know who he really, really, really hard to put it in words to describe him. He's a man of emotional intelligence. He. He is very kind. I get a. A hand written or a card every birthday, every Mother's Day and he does that for his family. He cares. And I you know, I wish I could say more.
- [75:52]
Dave Portnoy
Yeah.
- [75:54]
Martin Jens
In the infamous words of Tim McGraw, he's the kind of friend a friend would want to have. Yeah.
- [75:59]
Dave Portnoy
He seems like that just the the sentiment in both of your your voices and the way you describe it as nothing short of impactful to say the least. But it's almost miraculous who he is has gotten into both of you enough to want to take a significant portion out of your own lives in order to help him restore his in some context or capacity hopefully his freedom here. So what can people do? What can how can my listeners get out there and what can they do to support Dusty in this quest? And you guys.
- [76:43]
Jacob Goldstein
Well certainly follow Follow us on social media. We're on X. We're on Instagram and on Tick Tock. We have a petition out there on change.org you can get to it by going to the website which is freedusty.com and we also have links on all of the social medias social media channels as well.
- [77:07]
Dave Portnoy
What are the handles for those?
- [77:09]
Jacob Goldstein
It is Navy SEAL left Behind or at Free Dusty Turner.
- [77:15]
Dave Portnoy
Okay. Navy SEAL Left behind or at Free Dusty Turner.
- [77:19]
Jacob Goldstein
Or just Free Dusty at Free Dusty Turner.
- [77:21]
Dave Portnoy
Okay where and then if they and the the petition is is on the website freedusty do. Correct.
- [77:31]
Jacob Goldstein
Yes correct.
- [77:33]
Dave Portnoy
Okay yeah.
- [77:33]
Martin Jens
It links it links to it's a change.org and it links directly to it. Yeah.
- [77:38]
Jacob Goldstein
And I would like to put out.
- [77:39]
Martin Jens
40 people a day.
- [77:41]
Jacob Goldstein
I definitely want to put out there. Please do not get and Dusty is is very concerned about this. Please do not get caught in the trap and donating money through that through them. It does not go to Dusty's cause at all. And we probably should set something up for. For Dusty and absolutely you guys should.
- [78:04]
Dave Portnoy
Definitely set up a Give Send Go fund for sure. Stay away from whatever the other one was that they don't pay out if they don't believe in your your politics.
- [78:14]
Jacob Goldstein
Yeah yeah.
- [78:15]
Dave Portnoy
So Give Send go. I I found for. For causes like this is a little bit better but you know definitely investigate those. Yeah get that up as soon as possible and and you know probably get that up, you know, before this thing airs for sure. So we can, we can drive people to support the, the, the legal funds are just astronomical. I can't even imagine so far what his poor family has had to spend on his legal defenses. I have several friends that it's broken them because of whether it was child custody stuff which always seems to go the wrong way for team guys, it seems, and other criminal cases too. And that's why I, I'm gonna definitely reach out to Eddie Gallagher and in his, he's got a non profit called the Pipe Hitters Foundation. Yeah, so I'm gonna reach, I'm gonna call Eddie as soon as we get off the call here. We've been talking already. I'm trying to get him on, on the show, but I'll reach out to them and, and we'll just draw more attention to this.
- [79:23]
Jacob Goldstein
Yeah.
- [79:24]
Martin Jens
And I think, David, sorry to cut you short. Just, just, just quick follow up. We just need it, we need people laser focused on his case. We need people that care about justice to listen to Dusty's story and then we need them to help join a movement to draw attention to it. So it's. The petition certainly is one avenue, but we need people to be familiar with it. We want people convicted about how they feel about his case to come forward and support, support what needs to be done here.
- [80:04]
Dave Portnoy
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you both. Obviously, you know, Dusty, I bet is overwhelmed by your support. Certainly I am. You know, what you, what you've done here is, and what you're doing is, is remarkable. I commend both of you. It's, it's honorable and I just hope we can generate enough of that, like you said, that tipping point of, of support and we can have some justice filled for, for Dusty here soon. So thank you all so much for coming on and, and I look forward to the next opportunity that we can have the next talk. So God bless you guys.
- [80:53]
Jacob Goldstein
Thank you.
- [80:54]
Martin Jens
Thank you. Thank you.
- [80:55]
Jacob Goldstein
I'd like to mention one other thing if I can.
- [80:57]
Dave Portnoy
For sure. Absolutely.
- [80:59]
Jacob Goldstein
So currently Dusty is up for parole and his only out is either through clemency or parole or getting back into court if we have new evidence. And so what about a pardon?
- [81:13]
Dave Portnoy
Can he get a pardon?
- [81:14]
Jacob Goldstein
So clemency is pardon. It's essentially a pardon. And you know, that can be the.
- [81:20]
Dave Portnoy
President of the United States or the governor.
- [81:23]
Jacob Goldstein
No. So it's not a federal case. Like it's only, it's a Commonwealth of Virginia case. So only the governor can pardon. So if we have, once we have an active petition for a pardon or clemency. And the key is going to be the governor of Virginia, which is Glenn Youngkin. So anybody who has connections with Glenn Youngkin.
- [81:45]
Dave Portnoy
Did you hear that? Everybody. If you know someone, somebody or you know somebody in Glenn Youngkin's atmosphere or somebody that can get to him, don't hesitate. Immediately get in contact. Drive them to first to freedusty.com or if you want, send them the documentary. That's always a compelling thing because I think the way JD Laid out all that evidence is, is really, that was the thing for me, that was just pushed me over the edge for sure. So. All right. Is anything else? Aaron Martin?
- [82:20]
Martin Jens
No. Thank you, sir.
- [82:22]
Jacob Goldstein
Thank you.
- [82:22]
Martin Jens
We appreciate it. Dave.
- [82:23]
Dave Portnoy
You're welcome. God bless you guys, your efforts and God bless Dusty if you talk to him for us.
- [82:28]
Jacob Goldstein
Thank you.
- [82:29]
Martin Jens
Same to you. Thank you.
- [82:35]
Dave Portnoy
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Jacob Goldstein
Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
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iHeart Podcast Host
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