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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Karol Markowicz: From Reagan to Relationships: Craig Shirley’s Playbook for Politics (and Life)
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- [00:00]
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Craig Shirley
I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited.
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Craig Shirley
So I thought it would be fun.
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If we made $15 bills, but it.
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Ryan Reynolds
Turns out that's very illegal.
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So there goes my big idea for the commercial.
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Craig Shirley
Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
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Ryan Reynolds
A treasure trove of bananas has been stolen and it's up to Donkey Kong and his buddy Pauline to get them back. This unlikely duo is going on a world smashing adventure, using DK's destructive abilities to explore an underground world and the power of Pauline singing to activate wild transformations. Donkey Kong Bonanza available now. Rated everyone 10 and up only on Nintendo Switch 2 game and systems sold separately.
- [02:19]
Craig Shirley
Ugh. Come on. Why is this taking so long?
- [02:22]
Carol Markowitz
This thing is ancient.
- [02:23]
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Craig Shirley
Whoa, this thing moves.
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- [03:00]
Carol Markowitz
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iheartradio. My guest today is Craig Shirley. Craig is an American author, lecturer, historian, and public affairs consultant. He has written six bestsellers on Ronald Reagan, and his firm is Shirley and McVicker Public Affairs. So nice to have you on Craig.
- [03:19]
Craig Shirley
Thank you, Carol. It's a real pleasure. Thank you.
- [03:21]
Carol Markowitz
So I have a story for my viewers and listeners and a reminder story for you, but my first job in politics was actually working for Craig Shirley. I was an intern in his office for about six weeks in 2004. I remember the year very specifically. I was in graduate school and about three weeks into the internship, my grandmother died and I had to go home. And it was like a big deal. I was very close with her and Craig, Shirley and his team were so incredible to me. They were like, of course you have to go home. I was so nervous about it. You know, first job in politics. They planted a tree for her in Israel, and they were just so wonderful. They sent me, like, flowers. I left that internship being like, oh, people in D.C. are so nice. And I also did a little bit of research on your book, Reagan's the Untold Story of the Campaign that Started It All. And I like to refer to myself as an Expert on the 1976A Ronald Reagan Ford election. Yeah, yeah. Because I did research on that book. And so I had all this, you know, knowledge on that election, which was very funny. So, Craig, it is so nice to have you on, and I've remained a big fan of yours over the years. I loved your books and I think you're just a terrific person. So thanks for coming on.
- [04:39]
Craig Shirley
Thank you very much, Carl. Carol, the feeling is mutual. Thank you.
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Carol Markowitz
So how did you get your start in this world? Did you always want to be in public affairs? Did you always want to be a writer? How did this happen for?
- [04:53]
Craig Shirley
I thought I was going to be a gym teacher. I thought I was going to coach lacrosse. That was really my plan when I went to college. I thought I was going to be either a high school gym teacher or a history teacher and coach athletics, mostly lacrosse. I played lacrosse in college and actually I went on to played in high school in college. Then I went to coach it for 17 years while I was running my firm. I think you probably maybe remember I was Coaching lacrosse at the time when you were at the firm. But I didn't start out. I started out really. My parents were very politically active in New York State politics. My father was actually the first registered conservative in the state of New York when it became an official political party back in 1961. I want to say he went down to the Board of elections at 4 o' clock in the morning and waited until it opened at 7 o' clock so he could be the first person registered. So he could always say he was the first person in the state of New York as registered conservative. I love that they dragged me to New York State convention conservative conventions. And I met Jim Buckley and Bill Buckley and so many other conservative luminaries at an early age. And I went door to door for Barry Goldwater in 1964. So I was politically active at an early age. And it just seemed to gravitate toward that, even though when I was in college and I started out as a, as a history and phys ed major, is that there was an attraction. And I'll tell you, there was a seminal moment for me, 1976, I was actually, I was slinging hash at a seafood restaurant on Cape Cod. And I remember that the night I was, I was, I was cocktail waiting that night. And Reagan's speech, the Kansas City convention was on the TV over the bar and I watched the speech and I just was mesmerized by it. And I said to myself, I've got to get involved, I've got to get involved. That fall I went back to college and volunteered on the Gerald Ford campaign in western Massachusetts where I was going to college. And of.
- [07:09]
Carol Markowitz
Were you very popular?
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Craig Shirley
Yeah, well, actually we carried Western Mass, Ford carried Western Mass, got slaughtered in the state because of Boston and there's outlying areas. But, you know, I did a good, I, you know, I thought I did a good job. You know, I registered voters and gave people rights of polls and did lit drops and all the volunteer activities. The state chairman called me. This is big medicine for me, right? I was just a, you know, little puke college student. And the state chairman, the Republican state chairman called me a couple weeks later and asked me to come over to Boston to have lunch with him. So I went over there. I said, yes, of course, I'd love to. So I drove over there and it was about 100 miles away from Springfield and it was one of those old Boston, you know, private clubs with deep leather chairs and, you know, I had to figure out which piece, which silverware to use and all.
- [08:05]
Carol Markowitz
It'S always outside in.
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Craig Shirley
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. I figured that. Later. He said, you've got a knack for this business. I said, well, thank you. He said, well, what are your plans? I said, well, I think I'm just gonna go be a high school, you know, history teacher and coach sports. He says, well, have you ever thought of. Thought about politics as a profession? I said, I didn't know you could do politics in your profession, you know. And he said, oh, sure, of course you can. Campaign manager and press secretary and finance director and organizational. You know, there's lots of paid positions in politics. I said, well, that sounds interesting. I am not committed to my future. I'm only 19 or 20. I was 19 or 20. He said. He said, well, you need to go to Washington and become an intern. And I said, what's an Internet? And he laughed. And I applied. I kind of figured things out, you know, as I went along. I applied to a half dozen conservative congressmen and number of senators. The Republican Party, you remember, in 1977, was in terrible, awful condition. You know, it was just. Was almost not even a political party. And I got. The only internship I got was ironically, from my home state senator, Senator Jacob Javits, who is. Who was. Who is a very liberal Republican. He was very good on Israel and he's very good on national defense. And I always say wonderful things about him. He was a terrific, terrific guy. And he was very, very kind to me and very, very nice to me. But I was quickly, though, I was the token conservative in the office filled with a lot of liberals.
- [09:47]
Carol Markowitz
I've been that on several campaigns as well.
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Craig Shirley
One thing led to another, and then I went. Worked on the Virginia Gubanto campaign. And then I went back to school and I got a. I got. I went to a Nick Pack campaign school. And there I met some people who are very important in my political career in the future. Terry Dolan and Bill Ratigan and Arthur Finkelstein, who became my political mentor. And I went back to college, and I was just about two months away from graduating. Arthur calls me and says, listen, there's a race in Philadelphia. I want you to go work on it. I said, I'm about to graduate. I can't do that. I would just, you know, if I don't graduate now, I never will. Okay. So he called me back a week later and says, listen, I want you to go to work for Avi Nelson. He's running for the US Senate there in Massachusetts. And I said, ozzie Nelson? Isn't he a Band leader. He said, no, Avi Nelson. Avi Nelson. He's a conservative radio talk show host and political leader there and Boston. And so I ended up going to work for him and we barely lost the primary. I worked for him from June until August and we barely lost the primary running against Ed Brooke, who was then an incumbent liberal Republican senator. And I went after, after he lost. How far do you want me to go with this?
- [11:07]
Carol Markowitz
I mean, however far you want. I, I love hearing people's stories, you know, you tell me.
- [11:11]
Craig Shirley
Yeah, I'll speed it up. He went back. We had a house on Cape Cod that my father and I built and I went down there and I thought, you know, I'll just go back to the seafood restaurant and work there this winter, this fall and winter. And about two days left, I get another phone call from Arthur and he says, listen, I'm meeting in Boston with the, with the Republican nominee running in New Hampshire and I'd like, I want you to meet us there. So I met, I went there and we went over the polling data. The candidate was Gordon Humphrey. And Humphrey of course was, you know, went through staff like, you know what, through a goose. And he was, he was searching for a campaign manager and a press secretary. And after going over the polling data showing he was going to lose, he says to me, I said, I need a campaign manager. And Arthur points at me and he says, well, there he is right there. I said, no, no, no, no, no.
- [12:03]
Carol Markowitz
Right, no, thank you on that.
- [12:05]
Craig Shirley
That I'll be the press secretary.
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Carol Markowitz
Right?
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Craig Shirley
So I was press secretary and we won. We beat a three term incumbent. We were, we were labeled the biggest upset in, in America on election night 1978. And Humphrey was a firebrand conservative. I always admired him. He was a little bit kooky, but he was, he was a good, you know, reliable conservative vote. And after the election he fired everybody on his staff in a Nixon like maneuver. But he asked, he asked me and two other people to come with him to Washington, be on his staff. And of course I jumped at the chance and I went to Washington and I was with him.
- [12:43]
Carol Markowitz
Have you been in Washington since then?
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Craig Shirley
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
- [12:47]
Carol Markowitz
I'm saying, was that, was that your, was that what moved you to Washington?
- [12:51]
Craig Shirley
I'd been there before when I interned for Jeffs. Then I went back to Massachusetts, then I went back to work for Humphrey and I was there for about a year. And then the fellow who rents fund for a conservative majority asked me, he said, look, you know about New Hampshire politics and Communications. We're putting together an independent expenditure in support of Governor Reagan. We'd like you to run it. I was 21 years old. He handed me $80,000, which was a lot of money in those days. And he said, we need to help Reagan get the nomination because he could lose to Bush. And we want you to put together an independent expenditure campaign. So I did radio and newspaper advertising in the first six primary states and we bought radio, wall to wall everything we could. Sports, agriculture, farm reports, everything. Reagan ended up turning his campaign around. And I like to think that myself and John Gizzi and Bob Heckman could take a little bit of credit in helping turn around Reagan's chances to win the 1980 nomination.
- [13:53]
Carol Markowitz
Fantastic. So you've written six best selling books about Reagan.
- [13:58]
Craig Shirley
Yes.
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Carol Markowitz
What is it about Reagan that has fascinated you? So? He's very important in my life as well. You know, I started the show talking about working in your office in 2004 and how my grandmother died. Reagan died that same year. And when he died, my family, you know, I'm from the Soviet Union. I have a brother named Ronald. It's not a coincidence he was born in 1982 in America. He was very important to a lot of people. But, you know, you've clearly taken that extra step and really delved into his life. What did he mean to you?
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Craig Shirley
Well, you know, in 64, after he gave his famous speech for Goldwater, the speech was made into a record album. My father brought it home one day and he made my brother and me sit down and listen to it. And after the radio, after the record player, after the finish, he said, this man, Reagan himself, should be president. That was in 1964. Yeah, my father was kind of was prescient in that regard, but anyway, so I followed his career assiduously all through the 60s and 70s and was happy to. I wasn't involved in 76, but I was deeply involved in 80 and with the White House Conference on Small Business in 81, 82. And then I worked at the Republican National Committee, which was the political arm of the Reagan White House, and then worked on the 84 reelection campaign and lectured many times now at the Reagan Library and the Reagan Institute. I mean, I'm giving this short version.
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Carol Markowitz
Carol, but what is it about him that made you, you know, his biographer? What was the thing that he has that other people don't have that interests you so much?
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Craig Shirley
I don't know if I can put my thumb on one simple thing. I don't think you can. This was an extremely Intelligent. Jordy Anderson, his old issues aide, was a good friend of mine. He said he once estimated Reagan's intelligence to be 175. He said Reagan was an extremely intelligent man. And, you know, he read five newspapers a day and read a historical book a week and read voluminous security reports and things like that. He's an extremely intelligent man, wrote thousands of letters. It was his compelling intellect, his ability to tell a compelling story, to make it seem so obvious that freedom is the way personal dignity, personal freedom is the way the individual is superior to the state. I was always attracted to libertarian philosophy anyway. I remember in Reason magazine in 1975, he said that libertarianism was the fundamental basis for American conservatism, which is true if it's centered on the individual. It's centered on privacy, it's centered on freedom, it's centered on liberty. Then they are simpatico, the libertarian philosophy and the American conservative philosophy. So the whole package, it was just. You know, I met him many times, and that wasn't why I supported him, but he was utterly the same in private as he was in public. You saw a man in public who was compelling, who was. Who was friendly, who was charming. He was like that in private, too.
- [17:20]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
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Craig Shirley
And a friend of mine who since passed away, Paul Corbin, worked for. Many years ago. He used to play my weekly poker game.
- [17:27]
Carol Markowitz
Oh, I play poker.
- [17:29]
Craig Shirley
Do you?
- [17:30]
Carol Markowitz
I do, yeah.
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Craig Shirley
I haven't played it well.
- [17:33]
Carol Markowitz
Invite me to your weekly poker game.
- [17:34]
Craig Shirley
I'm rusty now. I played for 20, 25 years, and since we moved away from Washington, you know, busted up our old game. But anyway, Paul Corbin played in this game, and he had worked for John Kennedy, and he said that when Kennedy walked into a room, he tipped the field. You know, electricity flowed through a room.
- [17:56]
Carol Markowitz
Right.
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Craig Shirley
When he said that, I said, that's the way it is with Reagan. And so Reagan tips the field. Reagan. There's electricity that flows through a room. When Reagan walks into it, it just. He changes the dynamics of the setting.
- [18:09]
Carol Markowitz
Absolutely. You can see it. Even I had never met him. You know, I was born in 77, a little late for being in the political game. With Reagan, you could see it. Even I play old clips for my kids. And he had something very different about him that it's hard to capture. And the humor with which he did certain things, the way that he. I played yesterday for my children. The way he responded to Mondale about his age, you know, he won't hold his opponent's youth experience against him, and he delivers it with this Straight face. He was really something special.
- [18:46]
Craig Shirley
Somebody once said, somebody wiser than me once said that a true leader has a physical, intellectual and moral presence. Reagan had a physical, intellectual and moral presence. And that's what made him, has made him one of our four greatest presidents.
- [19:04]
Carol Markowitz
You have this historical background of our political system. What do you worry about right now?
- [19:11]
Craig Shirley
Making a deadline. I'm working on a book right now.
- [19:15]
Carol Markowitz
I hear you.
- [19:16]
Craig Shirley
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about. I worry about making a deadline. I worry about finding publishers for the next three or four books I want to write. I worry about my children. You know, they're all grown and they're all doing very, very well. My oldest, our oldest is a producer at Bloomberg and Andrew is the head of speech writing at N. Excellent.
- [19:41]
Carol Markowitz
Wow.
- [19:42]
Craig Shirley
Our daughter Taylor is an executive with a bank. And our son, our son Mitchell, our youngest, he is working for a D.C. lobbying firm.
- [19:52]
Carol Markowitz
So you must be so proud. That's amazing.
- [19:55]
Craig Shirley
We're so proud of them. Unfortunately, two of them are left wing nuts. Oh, no, two are rational thinking. Can you imagine that? Is it.
- [20:04]
Carol Markowitz
My wife's so tough.
- [20:06]
Craig Shirley
Yeah, I remember Doreen, right? She ran CPAC for, you know, seven years. She worked for the Republican National Committee. She worked for Reagan. We're both, you know, I like to consider ourselves intellectual conservatives. And we have two, two children who are conservative. They, they think like they said. I think, therefore I am probably the world's first conservative. And then we got two that are just phrased left wing nut balls.
- [20:36]
Carol Markowitz
So tough.
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Craig Shirley
You know, I, I had an argument once with my youngest one. He, he was convinced that a man can have a baby. And we argued for half an hour, said, please tell me in the animal kingdom where the male of the species can have a baby. And he looked it up, looked it up, looked it up and said, finally says to me, says, seahorses.
- [20:54]
Carol Markowitz
Seahorses. That's the only right, of course. Yes.
- [20:58]
Craig Shirley
Which isn't even true. But that's the best he could find.
- [21:01]
Carol Markowitz
We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.
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Craig Shirley
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- [23:11]
Ryan Reynolds
A treasure trove of bananas has been stolen and it's up to Donkey Kong and his buddy Pauline to get them back. This this unlikely duo is going on a world smashing adventure using DK's destructive abilities to explore an underground world and the power of Pauline singing to activate wild transformations. Donkey Kong Bonanza available now. Rated everyone 10 and up only on Nintendo Switch 2 game and systems sold separately.
- [23:40]
Craig Shirley
Ah come on, why is this taking so long?
- [23:43]
Carol Markowitz
This thing is ancient.
- [23:44]
Lenovo Announcer
Still using yesterday's tech upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 carbon ultralight. Ultra powerful and built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI powered performance that keeps up with your business, not the other way around.
- [23:59]
Craig Shirley
Whoa, this thing moves.
- [24:00]
Lenovo Announcer
Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search@lenovo.com Lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.
- [24:20]
Carol Markowitz
What advice would you give your 16 year old self? Having to kind of do this all over again?
- [24:25]
Craig Shirley
Have more fun.
- [24:26]
Carol Markowitz
Did you not have a lot of fun?
- [24:27]
Craig Shirley
I did, Carol. I have had a lot of fun. It's been a lot of fun. But there's been a lot of bumps in the road along the way. You know, my father died when I was a kid and then my grandfather died. When a month later. And a lot of trials and tribulations along the way. And I had to go to work at an early age and I had a lot of fun along the way. I don't want to, I don't want to overstate it. I guess the first thing is I would save more money. I would be more careful with my money. I would read more. I would read a lot more. You know, it's just I've read hundreds of books probably and I still feel inadequate. There's so many books that I want to read. I haven't read Grant's autobiography and I want, I want to read Grant's autobiography. I just got a copy of the Adams and Jefferson correspondence and I want to read that for pleasure. For research. I'm reading a bunch of books on Donald Trump. And for pleasure I'm reading like Mark Levin's book on power, which I just got a copy from Mark. And I'm reading Kennedy by Ted Sorensen. That's just for pleasure. But if I could give myself advice, you would be? Well, first of all, never smoke. I smoked for 40 years. I quit 10 years ago.
- [25:43]
Carol Markowitz
Congratulations. That's amazing.
- [25:45]
Craig Shirley
Do you want to know how I quit?
- [25:46]
Carol Markowitz
How'd you quit?
- [25:48]
Craig Shirley
I prayed. I'll tell you something that I think is amazing. I was drinking. I was never an alcoholic. I didn't drink to excess. But at night, after I finished writing, during the day, I would sit down and edit out on the back porch and I would chain smoke cigarettes and drink two or three glasses of wine. And I did that four nights a week. And I got to a point where I just thought, you know what? This is not working for me anymore. I've been doing that for 40 years. And I did everything, you know, I wrote and ran a business and, you know, did all the other things. Rehabbed old buildings and did a lot of other things. One night I just, I guess I'm giving my testament. I beg your pardon?
- [26:32]
Carol Markowitz
I love it.
- [26:33]
Craig Shirley
One night I just, after two or three glasses of wine and smoking a bunch of cigarettes. I just, I got down my knees and I prayed and the next morning I woke up and both cravings were gone.
- [26:46]
Carol Markowitz
It's incredible.
- [26:48]
Craig Shirley
They were both gone.
- [26:49]
Carol Markowitz
I believe it. I think prayer works.
- [26:52]
Craig Shirley
I haven't had a cigarette. That's 10 years now. I was smoking two, two and a half packs a day and I haven't had a cigarette in 10 years.
- [26:59]
Carol Markowitz
That's amazing.
- [27:01]
Craig Shirley
I was smoking. I was drinking two or three glasses of wine a night and I haven't had a glass of wine in 10 years. I've had probably four or five Jack Daniels. Five Jack Daniels in 10 years and invariably I drink half of it and then pour the rest of it down the drain.
- [27:19]
Carol Markowitz
That's really something. I fully believe prayer works. I don't think that that's something controversial to say or even questionable.
- [27:27]
Craig Shirley
I feel comfortable with you that I can tell you that. I know lots of people following you are probably going to say, what a dork.
- [27:33]
Carol Markowitz
I don't think so. I think my listeners know that prayer is the way. And I do think that. And look, I have a lot of Christians on my show who talk about how prayer has changed our lives and.
- [27:47]
Craig Shirley
I don't think there's anything certainly changed.
- [27:49]
Carol Markowitz
Mine strange about it. Well, I've loved this conversation. Craig, you are such a fascinating man and you've done such incredible work. Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
- [28:03]
Craig Shirley
Read, read, read and make as many friends as possible. Pray as much as possible. Love as much as possible. Read Strunk and White. I have a particular favorite, Dorothy Parker. She had a lot of good advice. One of the best ones was authors and artists and actors and such. Never know nothing but always know much. That's me.
- [28:26]
Carol Markowitz
Well, thank you so much. He is Craig Shirley Ch his work, especially his six bestsellers on Ronald Reagan. Thank you so much, Craig, for coming on.
- [28:34]
Craig Shirley
Thank you, Carol, so, so much.
- [28:37]
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- [29:07]
Craig Shirley
Ugh. Come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [29:12]
Lenovo Announcer
Still using yesterday's Tech Upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 Carbon Ultra Light Ultra powerful and built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI powered performance that keeps up with your business, not the other way around.
- [29:26]
Craig Shirley
Whoa, this thing moves.
- [29:27]
Lenovo Announcer
Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search@lenovo.com Lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.
- [29:45]
Jacob Goldstein
This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@odoo.com that's O D O O.com.
- [30:20]
Ryan Reynolds
A treasure trove of bananas has been stolen and it's up to Donkey Kong and his buddy Pauline to get them back. This unlikely duo is going on a world smashing adventure, using DK's destructive abilities to explore an underground world and the power of Pauline singing to activate wild transformations. Donkey Kong Bonanza available now. Rated everyone 10 and up only on Nintendo Switch 2 game and systems sold separately. Looking for a mortgage, credit card or auto loan? Then you should know your FICO score. Did you know 90% of top lenders use FICO scores? Visit myfico.com free today to get your FICO score for free. My FICO makes it easy to understand your credit with FICO scores, credit reports and alerts. Visit myfico.com free or download the MyFico app and discover the score lenders use most.
- [31:18]
PayPal Announcer
This is an iHeart podcast.