The Karol Markowicz Show: Author Joel Engel on Storytelling, Society, and the Rising Tide of Anti-Semitism

Summary

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The Karol Markowicz Show: Author Joel Engel on Storytelling, Society, and the Rising Tide of Anti-Semitism

Podcast: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Hosted by: Carol Markowitz
Guest: Joel Engel
Release Date: November 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features journalist and author Joel Engel, whose career spans nearly 40 nonfiction books across subjects like true crime, history, law, and adventure. Host Carol Markowitz and Engel dive into the art and impulse of storytelling, Joel’s unconventional career path, and reflections on American society—particularly the alarming surge in antisemitism post-October 7th, 2025. Their conversation also touches on political polarization, civic identity, and personal values.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Joel Engel’s Writing Journey

[02:58–07:38]

• Origin Story:
  • Engel describes his lifelong desire to write, inspired by literature and a yearning for adventure.
  • After college and reading Hemingway's A Movable Feast, Engel planned to seek stories in Paris, only for love and heartbreak to direct him elsewhere.
  • He never wrote about his Parisian adventures, instead moving to journalism and then to books by chance when an agent noticed his work.

Notable Quote:

“If you want to be a writer, you have to have things to write about…I figured, I’ll go to Paris, I’ll have some adventures and I’ll have something to write about. Well, what happened was I fell in love with a woman who had a really beautiful voice…She broke my heart.”
— Joel Engel [04:00]

• On Never Specializing:
  • Engel’s repertoire is broad because of his interest in human stories rather than genre or subject focus.

[06:17–08:59]

• Favorite Works:
  • LA56: A book Engel wrote about a racist police investigation in 1956 Los Angeles, based on a compelling true story told by detective Danny Galindo.
  • By Duty Bound: Co-authored with Ezell Ware Jr., chronicling the rise of a Black man from Jim Crow Mississippi, his dream of flying and becoming a general, and a daring Vietnam story.

Notable Quote:

“He may have as well have said, I want a herd of unicorns…But he accomplished both of those in his life.”
— Joel Engel [07:42], about Ezell Ware Jr.

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Plans, Life, and “Plan B”

[08:59–10:49]

• Engel recounts never having a “Plan B”—he just focused on writing.
• Anecdote: Refers to an episode of This American Life about Plan B’s, featuring the infamous kidnapper of Frank Sinatra Jr., Barry Keenan, whose kidnapping was his own "plan B" after losing his brokerage career.

Notable Quote:

“I had blinders on and I kept my Plan A.”
— Joel Engel [09:27]

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The Rising Tide of Antisemitism & Societal Division

[16:05–19:42]

• Engel feels a responsibility to write about antisemitism, particularly after October 7th. His Wall Street Journal piece captured the shock among American Jews at the eruption of public Jew-hatred.
• Markowitz was less surprised, having documented antisemitic violence in NY long before, suggesting broader societal blind spots.

Notable Quotes:

“If you had told me a week prior that…there would be pro-Hamas ‘From the river to the sea’ demonstrations after something like that, I would have thought you were out of your mind.”
— Joel Engel [17:03]

“I knew the only reason I wasn’t being attacked was because I didn’t look the part.”
— Carol Markowitz [17:55]

• Engel confesses he underestimated how widespread antisemitism had become, especially among seemingly ordinary neighbors.

[19:42–21:38]

• They discuss the “horseshoe theory” (left and right extremes meeting), and how fringe support for violence isn’t limited to antisemitism.
• Comparison to 1968: Engel observes the center once held even amidst division, but now doubts if a cultural, normative "center" exists at all.

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American Politics, California vs. Florida & Civic Trust

[21:38–25:32]

• Markowitz and Engel joke about moving to “saner” places (like Florida), especially as policies and governance in California and New York have frustrated both.
• They note the importance of the collective sanity of the populace over individual politicians; Markowitz trusts Floridians more than elected officials.
• Engel expresses zero confidence in California’s electorate, except for its weather and geography.

Notable Quote:

“The only thing I have faith in here is the weather and the topography.”
— Joel Engel [25:24]

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Family, Legacy, and Personal Pride

[25:36–27:31]

• Engel’s proudest accomplishment: his 44-year marriage and his daughter, whom he describes as “a wonderful, light-on-the-world” person.

Notable Quote:

"To my wife, Fran, who has endured the click clacking of a keyboard load these many years without ever telling me to get a real job."
— Joel Engel [25:51], referencing his book dedication

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Predictions on Polarization and the Future of America

[27:31–30:52]

• Engel predicts continued fragmentation driven by social media’s centrifugal force, which “drives us further apart.”
• The possibility of a “civil war” no longer fits the old North-South binary; division is now neighbor vs. neighbor.
• Both agree the so-called “national divorce” is improbable, as societies and people change; the real danger is America’s vulnerability in division.

Notable Quote:

“I’m not optimistic…Social media is a centrifuge and it’s driving—spinning faster and driving further apart. There is no countervailing centripetal force to bring anyone together.”
— Joel Engel [27:41]

“I don’t know how you come back from ‘I want you dead’.”
— Joel Engel [30:31]

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Life Advice from Joel Engel

[35:39–37:17]

• On Self-Reflection: Keep a simple journal tracking main daily events and moods; review every 90 days for patterns and self-correction.
• On Expectations: When seeking customer service, expect disappointment—protect your emotions by bracing for difficulty.

Notable Quote:

“Don’t expect it to go well. Expect that it will go badly and that way you won’t have given too much emotion to the disappointment.”
— Joel Engel [37:01]

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Joel’s Paris Adventure and Heartbreak: [04:00]
• On Why He Writes Widely: “If it was a good story and I thought I could tell it, I did.” [05:04]
• On Antisemitism After October 7: “It was like on October 7th, it was like an on button was pushed.” [18:21]
• Political Frustration: “That this governor thinks he actually has a chance to become president is really one of the most mortally funny things I can think of.” — Joel on Gavin Newsom [22:49]
• Perspective on Division: “There’s no countervailing force to bring anyone together.” [27:41]
• Advice on Life and Expectations: [35:55–37:17]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:58] Introduction to Joel Engel and his career
• [03:36] Early writing aspirations and Paris story
• [06:17] Joel’s favorite books and why
• [08:59] The Plan A/Plan B conversation
• [16:05] Writing about antisemitism and the impact of October 7th events
• [19:42] Societal division and the center no longer holding
• [21:38] California vs. Florida, politics, and sanity
• [25:36] What Joel is most proud of (family and legacy)
• [27:31] Engel’s predictions for America’s polarization
• [35:39] Joel’s best life tips

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Tone and Style

Conversational, candid, sometimes humorous, with a prevailing sense of unease about recent social and political shifts. Engel is reflective, weaving anecdotes with observations, and Markowitz matches with wit and serious engagement.

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Final Takeaway

This episode blends Joel Engel’s storytelling talent and sharp observations with the raw anxiety of rapidly changing societal norms, especially the resurgence of antisemitism and eroding civic trust. The discussion is at once personal and political, offering both stories and strategies for navigating turbulent times.

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Transcript

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[Carol Markowitz]

Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iheartradio. My guest today is Joel Engel. Joel is an author, co author and even ghost Author of nearly 40 nonfiction books, biography, autobiography, essays, history, comedy, health, law, true crime, adventure, war and corruption. And he's one of my favorite people on the app that used to be known as Twitter. Hi, Joel. So nice to have you on.

[Joel Engel]

It's so great to be here with you.

[Carol Markowitz]

So we've never met, and that's crazy because I feel like I've known you a long time. But I would love to know how you got into this crazy thing of ours and what led you to become a writer.

[Joel Engel]

Well, let's see. I, for some reason, when I was young, I knew I wanted to be a writer. I don't know why I wanted to be a writer. I love to read. So I, after college, I went to school in Berkeley. After college, I had. Well, during college, I had read A Movable Feast by Hemingway. And I thought, okay, I'm going to move to Paris after college.

[Carol Markowitz]

Who among us?

[Joel Engel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'll. Because until then, I didn't have anything to write about. So if you want to be a writer, you have to have things to write about. I didn't have anything to write about. I figured, I'll go to Paris, I'll have some adventures and I'll have something to write about. Well, what happened was I fell in love with a woman who had a really beautiful voice. I played guitar. She sang. We played in the first the Streets or first in the subways, then the streets, then clubs. Then we traveled all around Western Europe and North Africa playing and all of that. And so I had all of these wonderful adventures for a year or more. And she broke my heart. And that was it. I came back.

[Carol Markowitz]

I was hoping this is like. And we're still married today?

[Joel Engel]

No, no, no, no. And so all of those adventures I've written about, none of them. The whole reason I went there, I had the things I wanted to do and I didn't write any of them. When I came back, I started writing journalism. And then I that got an offer from an agent to who had read something, I think in the New York Times. Have you ever thought about writing books? Yeah, of course I thought about writing books. And so that's basically how it started. Then it just kept going and I never specialized in anything because I was always just interested in people and stories and their best stories. Yeah, yeah, everything. So if it was a good story and I thought I could tell it, I did.

[Carol Markowitz]

So you've never written about that time in Paris, playing on the metro and falling in love and traveling around Western Europe? Because I feel like maybe you should write that.

[Joel Engel]

Well, I'm actually, I'm now writing. I'm literally. I'm about two weeks away from the end of the first draft of my first novel. I'm actually writing a novel finally, but it's not anything about that. And that it's. I'm calling it a. A character driven revenge thriller love story. So literally none of what happened to me personally is in this, but it's all. Everything in there is based on someone I've known. I guess. I. I think. I just. I don't feel like it's enough years in between then. Even though it's been decades. Yeah. Yeah, I. I don't. I don't feel like I need a. A little more space. Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

So which is your favorite of your almost 40 books that you've written? Which one feels closest to you?

[Joel Engel]

Well, I wrote the two best true stories I ever heard. I wrote books about one of the best true story I ever heard. And I. I was told by the detective, the LAPD detective. Former LAPD detective who solved the case. He told it to me in 1990, but it took me 22 years to figure out how to tell it properly. The story that had never been told was about a serial rapist terrorizing the city's lovers lanes. Los Angeles in 1956, posing as a cop. He was a black man. And the man who was falsely accused of it and jailed for it was a black former cop who got fired, they said, for cutting a check. But really what he had done is he dated a white woman. And so they thought. And that's. So the story is basically about racism. So the detective who solved it, he was a Latino man, I think the first Latina detective in the LAPD named Danny Galindo. And he solved it. Danny was the guy who was the technical advisor on Dragnet. So when there would be homicide, which Dragnet didn't do, and they'd said, give it to Galindo, that was just the one I got by. So I wrote.

[Carol Markowitz]

What was that book called?

[Joel Engel]

That. This is called LA56.

[Carol Markowitz]

Okay.

[Joel Engel]

And then I wrote. I actually this is a co author. So I told his Story for him. So it's by him and me, a man named Ezel Ware Jr. He was a black man born in 1941 in the heart of Jim Crow, Mississippi. He, his, his mother and father were kicked out of town by the kkk and he was raised on his grandparents. Sharecropping grandparents, dirt floor shack. But he had two dreams in life. One of them was to be a pilot and the other was to be a general. These are. He may have as well have said, I want a herd of unicorns. But he, he accomplished both of those in his life. But the story is built around this. The book is built around his adventure story. He was shot down in Vietnam. He was a helicopter pilot. He was shot down in the jungles of Vietnam. Had this three week incredible adventure story in which he'd saved the life of his white racist captain who he was shot down with. It's really.

[Carol Markowitz]

What is that one called?

[Joel Engel]

That's called by Duty Bound. So that's a very good story, I have to say. So both of those are my favorites, I think.

[Carol Markowitz]

Did you have a plan B? If the writing thing didn't work out, would you be busking in the metro?

[Joel Engel]

You know, that's funny.

[Carol Markowitz]

You live in la. There's not even a public transportation that you could be busking in. Right.

[Joel Engel]

I was, I think it was early 2002 when that famous episode of this American Life called Plan B came out. Do you know this episode?

[Carol Markowitz]

No, I don't. I always ask about plan B's on this show, but no, I don't know that one.

[Joel Engel]

Yeah, so. So I'm driving along and I think about it and I go, so all these people talking about their plan B's, and I'm starting to feel really terrible about it, that I just. I had blinders on and I kept my plan A. And then it turns out. This is truly funny. One of the stories they told was a story of Barry Keenan, who was the man who kidnapped Frank Sinatra Jr. Hmm. I remember this story in 1963. I had spent a week with him about a year and a half prior getting his story because I was going to tell it because it was so amazing. And then we found. Then I found out that I really couldn't monetize it because of the Son of Sam loss. And then I thought, okay, good, I'm on plan if he wants.

[Carol Markowitz]

I thought you were going to tell me he had a plan B.

[Joel Engel]

Well, that was his plan B.

[Carol Markowitz]

That was his plan B.

[Joel Engel]

The kidnapping.

[Carol Markowitz]

Plan A.

[Joel Engel]

His plan. He'd been a stockbroker and then the market crashed and he lost everything. And then he had mental illness, which wasn't helpful. And so his plan, that's the reason they included him.

[Carol Markowitz]

I see.

[Joel Engel]

Yeah, included him was because kidnapping Frank Sinatra Jr was his plan B. So when I heard that, I did a complete360 for an hour in the car.

[Carol Markowitz]

Love it. We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.

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[Joel Engel]

So look, this how I break it down. I said for he can get MVP defensive player of the year and most improve in one year. How he's came out the gate. So an average fan or somebody might be like, okay, well he was the number one pick, he's an all star. How is he gonna be most improved? Leave that for somebody that maybe changed roles or got more minutes. Cause it's like if you break it down like this, say If I average 20 points a game, 20 and 5 in one year, then the next year I come back and average 30 and 10. Why am I not in consideration for most improved? Like I'm saying that the significant jump in improvement that should have somebody in consideration.

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[Carol Markowitz]

So you do still write columns and you do still write journalism. It's not just books, right? What, what do you enjoy writing about on a more like day to day basis?

[Joel Engel]

Well, enjoy is not the. I feel an obligation to write as much as possible about the anti Semitism that's going on, which. So about a month or three weeks after October 7th, I had a column in the Wall Street Journal about how life has turned around for American Jews seeing the explosion of antisemitism in the country. And I closed the column by saying, we don't want to, you know, we don't want to redefine. Never again to me, never again will we allow Nazi Germany to kill 6 million Jews before between January 1933 and May 1945. But that is what is happening. If you had told me a week prior that on October 8th there would be pro Hamas Billy river to the Sea demonstrations after something like that, I would have thought you were out of your mind.

[Carol Markowitz]

Really. So you were surprised?

[Joel Engel]

I was.

[Carol Markowitz]

I didn't feel that kind of surprise, really. I, I think about that because I really wasn't shocked. I had been writing about antisemitism growing in New York for a long time. And I guess the thing was that people had compartmentalized what was happening, which to me was Orthodox Jews were being daily beat up in the streets of New York. And to me that was a four alarm fire because I knew the only reason I wasn't being attacked was because I didn't look the part. But that's all that was saving me. So I was fully not surprised about October 8th. I thought this was clearly where we were heading for a while. Did you feel maybe was it different in California? I guess Brooklyn is actually the epicenter of violent antisemitism. It's number one in the country for violence against Jews. So maybe I just had it close up to me. And could it be that California kept you away from that?

[Joel Engel]

Well, it's that I didn't. I followed the same things you did, maybe. Well, certainly not to the degree that you did. But I had no idea how widespread it was, how the guy down the block for me may very well hate me. And I didn't know that all along. It never occurred to me that it ran so deep. But it was like on October 7th. It was like an on button. Button was pushed.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Joel Engel]

And it continues to grow. It's like the blob that continues to eat everything in its way. You look at xennials and the age cohort is so amenable to Hitler youth that it's frightening.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. And even beyond just about Jews, that cohort is extremely supportive of political violence. For example, like, you know, leaving apart Israel, leaving apart Jews. They think it's okay to kill people when you disagree with them in numbers that are astronomical. I think we have a wider problem. It is an immediate problem for Jews in America. But I think the overarching issues, way bigger and worse, actually more problematic than it seems.

[Joel Engel]

Yeah, indeed. You know, not for nothing, our Jews call the canary in the coal mine. Yeah.

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[Joel Engel]

So the horseshoe theory is now it's the. The tips are coming together. It's turning into a noose. Jews will be the first one hang, but not nearly the last. These people that you were just talking about, it's. It's sort of like the difference between what they used to say, radical Muslim and a moderate Muslim. The radical Muslim is the one willing to do the killing. And the moderate Muslim stands there and watch and goes, oh, yeah. So these got. They may not pull the trigger themselves, these, these young people, but they, they're applauding it. It's just the weirdest thing to see. We get compared a lot to 1968, but in 1968, even which I was sentient enough to pay attention to, the center held that you would never have seen that sort of thing. But another example is the idea that males would play female sports or males would go into female locker rooms and bathrooms. The center was holding for something like that. Now I don't even know if there is a center.

[Carol Markowitz]

I don't know that issue. I feel like the center is holding. The center's actually saying that the Democrats are so fringe about it, even other Democrats, Bill Mahers of the world and stuff. I feel like they've woken up to how big of a threat this is.

[Joel Engel]

But how did we get here?

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh, yeah, no, how we got here is a. Is a terrible story of allowing people to really bully others into having the same opinion as them. Even though we all knew the emperor had no clothes. That's what it was. It was a bullying situation. You know, cancel culture at peak wokeness Met Covid era. And all of that combined to create a really crazy time. Which leads me to the most obvious question. When are you moving to Florida? Because. Because this is it. We. We have Our little haven of sanity here. And this is the only spot in town.

[Joel Engel]

I have spent quite a bit of time in Florida. My mother, blessed memory, spent the last 30 years of her life in Florida, except for the final year of her life when she lived with us. And if I was able to endure humidity better. Yeah, it's tough, right? Also, my wife went to college in Florida. And she goes, never again.

[Carol Markowitz]

No, no, no. Never going back. Are you gonna wait out the California insanity? Is it crazy over there?

[Joel Engel]

It's crazy. But then I walk out my backyard, there's the Santa Monica mountains.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. No, California is beautiful.

[Joel Engel]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

It used to be my plan B. Like, I was like, if New York goes to shit, like, I'm going to California. That got real. That got super funny right around 2020, you know?

[Joel Engel]

Yes.

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That's what I'm saying.

[Joel Engel]

The reason you left, that, that didn't apply.

[Carol Markowitz]

No, not at all.

[Joel Engel]

It was worse here than where you left.

[Carol Markowitz]

California schools didn't open for longer than New York schools.

[Joel Engel]

And.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. It turned out California was not that great of a plan B for myself.

[Joel Engel]

That this governor thinks he actually has a chance to become president is really one of the most mortally funny things I can think of.

[Carol Markowitz]

I'm scared.

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[Joel Engel]

All you have to do is run video of life on the streets in our cities.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Joel Engel]

And that if it's not over for that. Well, on the other hand, you have the Attorney General of Virginia who is on record wishing the death of his opponent and his children.

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Yeah.

[Joel Engel]

He's in the once upon a time, in the not very long ago past that would end the career within four hours.

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Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

And now it's like, not a big deal. And all the Democrats are standing by him. So I don't know. I'm worried about Gavin Newsom because a lot of people are under some spell that makes them believe a lot of crazy things. And the Democrats are very good at rallying around their people in a way that not sure Republicans are quite as good.

[Joel Engel]

I, I, when I. The way to watch Gavin Newsom is with the sound off. And you can you see how oleaginous he is. But also the thing about Gavin Newsom is I imagine him with male pattern baldness at 5, 9 and the. His entire reason.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah.

[Joel Engel]

For being in politics disappears.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's all true.

[Joel Engel]

Because he has nothing else, Right?

[Carol Markowitz]

No. Yeah. He has the slimy look that apparently some people enjoy. Let's keep an eye on that one, because.

[Joel Engel]

I do, I do.

[Carol Markowitz]

I would like the angles to move to Florida, but not because the rest of the country has gone elected.

[Joel Engel]

Gavin Newsom, what's gonna happen after your governor is turned out?

[Carol Markowitz]

You know, I don't know, but what I've been saying the whole time and when we moved here, you can't move for a politician. You can't go somewhere because one guy is doing a great job. DeSantis has been incredible. I moved here because the sanity of the people, it was. The people were like, no, our schools are going to open in 2020. No, our kids are not going to be wearing masks in 2021. They just, they. Even the Democrats, that was the thing. Even the Democrats in Florida are so much saner than the Democrats or even some Republicans in New York. So that's what did it for me. I have faith in Floridians more than I have faith in any politician. You have to say the same about California. Now, do you have that kind of faith? Californians?

[Joel Engel]

No. No. I have zero faith in. The only thing I have faith in here is the weather and the topography.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. And listen, those are not going to change, hopefully.

[Joel Engel]

No.

[Carol Markowitz]

So it leads me to one of my three questions that I ask all my guests. What are you most proud of in. In your life?

[Joel Engel]

I am most proud of my marriage, which in a few days will be 44 years.

[Podcast Announcer/Promos]

Wow.

[Joel Engel]

Yes.

[Carol Markowitz]

My wife is super young to have 44 years of marriage.

[Joel Engel]

Thank you. Though. I think the LA56. LA56, a book I talked about earlier, dedicated to my wife. It said, if I remember correctly, to my wife, Fran, who has endured the click clacking of a keyboard load these many years without ever telling me to get a real job. And the second thing I'm proud of is the product of that marriage. Are spectacularly wonderful. Light on the world daughter.

[Podcast Announcer/Promos]

Yeah, she's just.

[Joel Engel]

She's about to turn 39.

[Podcast Announcer/Promos]

Oh.

[Carol Markowitz]

Definitely don't look old enough to have a 39 year old.

[Joel Engel]

Thank you. Yeah. She's got two wonderful little boys. One of them one one four. And she's just a great mom and a great human being who married a great man.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's so wonderful. That's really, that's all I'm looking for my kids to get married to great people and give me some grandchildren.

[Joel Engel]

Yeah. Well, that you a few years down the line?

[Carol Markowitz]

Yes. My oldest is 15, so not tomorrow or anything, but.

[Joel Engel]

Yeah, but really smart. You have really smart kids. I love it when you post about your kids and your interactions with them. That's just really one of my favorite things on the site.

[Carol Markowitz]

Thank you. I really appreciate that they love when I post about them.

[Joel Engel]

They do? Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

People sometimes say, like, you know, you shouldn't post about your kids. I never use their real names or anything. I just use their ages. And they love going back and looking at, like, things. I tweeted about them five years ago, 10 years ago, and they really enjoy that.

[Joel Engel]

That's great. That's just really lovely.

[Carol Markowitz]

Give us a prediction. Five years out, it could be anything, you know, the world, the country, music, whatever you think.

[Joel Engel]

Well, the world and the country are obviously primary. I'm not optimistic that. Because social media is a centrifuge and it's driving. It's spinning faster and it's driving further apart. There is no. Not even in the culture. There's no countervailing centripetal force to bring anyone together. The Charlie Kirk assassination had for about 15 minutes the chance to do that. Like, okay, boy, all right. We've stepped over the line. It's like when you drink too much. You know, you drank too much because.

[Carol Markowitz]

Like, no more of this.

[Joel Engel]

Yeah, yeah, right. But so that didn't Last immediately or 16 minutes later, congratulations to the shooter. And all of that started. So I'm not. It's weird because you can have a civil war geographically. So we had the north against the south. That was the civil War. It was the north against the south. Now it's my. My neighbor there. Yeah, my neighbor there. How do you fight this? Where is it going? How do. How do you do that? So I. I'm not great at predictions. I have lost a number of bets, betting on the future in politics. So I'm not great at that. But I don't. Unless something happens, unless some kind of centripetal force is formed or forms by itself, I don't see how we're not going to be separate entities. At some point, we're going to have to choose where to live, and you're going to have to move there. Okay, you can move there like the man in the high castle. You could move. The, you know, part of the country is going to live on the Japanese side and on the German side.

[Carol Markowitz]

So the thing about that is that I. You know, people talk about that national divorce all the time, and it's not even. I'm not against it at all. I think that we are doing. Have been doing the great sort in the last few years, and we have been sorting into where we want to be ideologically and actually moving to those places. But the thing is, you can't predict what people. People change. People have kids who are not the same ideologically as them because we can't predict any of that and because things change. The Republican Party today or the Democrats today are nothing like they were even 30 years ago.

[Joel Engel]

Correct.

[Carol Markowitz]

I don't know that the national divorce thing will work. So I fully agree with your prediction. I think that five years from now, we're still at each other's throats and things are very div. But I don't think we get over that. Like, I don't think that we somehow divide ourselves into being happier apart. We're going to have to come back together eventually or things will get worse. Really.

[Joel Engel]

Well, I don't know how you come back from I want you dead.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, that's a tough one.

[Joel Engel]

I just don't know how you come back from that. I don't know if anyone's ever come back from that.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right.

[Joel Engel]

So again, I hope you're right. We do have to come back, but before we're colonized by really bad people.

[Lear Capital Advertiser]

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[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. It's that, that's really the concern, that our division makes us so weak that any outside force can easily tick tock their way into capturing our attention.

[Joel Engel]

Yeah. When the, and when the pillars, when the supports are chipped away and chipped away and chipped away, that's the problem with the left. They don't build anything. They only want to tear down things and they make it easy for things to crumble by chipping away a little bit. A little bit. A little bit. They're not. It's, you know, once upon a time, I don't know when liberalism, I'm not sure exactly the point when liberalism became leftism, but that what, whatever day that future historians, if they do exist, if they can pinpoint that, that will be the hinge of history.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, absolutely. We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Joel, I have loved this conversation. I can't believe this is the first time that we've ever actually spoken sort of in person. You are awesome and I'm so glad you came on the show. End here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.

[Joel Engel]

I have two one's kind of. Well okay. So one is I think everybody should every day keep a kind of journal or diary in which you you list the main things that you did that day and it could be just bullet points and then how you your emotional moods. If there were more than one during the day it could be, it could be a just 5 minute entries. Well then every 90 you go back over the 90 days worth of entries and you can determine ascertain if you're on some sort of vector that you didn't know that you were on that oh this is, this is, this is vectors leading me in a place that I don't want to go. So what are the kinds of things I need to do? And then you do that for the next 30 days and see if you have corrected course. So the second one is one that has immediate benefits and that is when you call any place for customer service, don't expect it to go well. Expect that it.

[Carol Markowitz]

I think that's because you're in California.

[Joel Engel]

No matter where you call for support, whether it's your isp, whatever it is, just know it's going to go badly and that way you won't have given too much emotion to the disappointment.

[Carol Markowitz]

No disappointment. If you expect things to go poorly. I love it. Thank you so much. He is Joel Engel. Check out all of his amazing books and follow him on X Olengle. Thank you so much Joel.

[Joel Engel]

Great to be with you, Carol.

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