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The Karol Markowicz Show: Faith, Sobriety, and Truth: Ericka Anderson’s Journey
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- [00:00]
Erica Anderson
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
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- [03:01]
Carol Markowitz
Welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iheartradio. My guest today is Erica Anderson. Erica is a writer who has written for Christianity Today, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and others. Her book Leaving Cloud 9 the True Story of a Life Resurrected from the Ashes of Poverty, Trauma, and Mental Illness, is available now. And her upcoming book, Freely Sober, is available for pre order before its January release anywhere you buy your books. Hi Erica, So nice to have you on.
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Erica Anderson
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.
- [03:34]
Carol Markowitz
So I've known you online for a number of years, and I remember when you first started talking about your sobriety journey. When was that? Was that difficult for you and what made you start opening up about that?
- [03:50]
Erica Anderson
Yeah, I think I probably originally started talking about it the first time I really tried to get sober, which was, I would say, early 2019, something like that. And the reason I sort of, you know, dipped a toe where I wasn't like really going all out talking about it, but I was kind of talking about how maybe I'm not as comfortable with alcohol as I thought I was. But for me, it is just part of who I am to sort of share what I'm going through online. That's not for everybody. But as I became more immersed in, you know, deciding that I wasn't going to be drinking anymore, I knew it had to, in part become a part of my identity, at least for a while. To say I had heard from others to say, to say I I don't drink. Like even if you still are drinking or you're still struggling to just even say I don't drink or I'm sober, to just say that it actually helps ingrain it to who you are and actually empowers you to make better choices even in the midst of of a struggle. And so that is what sort of inspired me to just start talking about it. And I kind of just sort of followed God like he was. I felt like giving me this courage to talk about it. And I thought, I don't think everyone has this, but I do think we need voices. And he's telling me like, let's do it, let's go. And so I just kind of went with that. Despite knowing that I was feeling a Little bit self conscious when. With everybody I knew.
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Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [05:19]
Erica Anderson
Seeing this online.
- [05:21]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, it's a big deal to tell people stories about it. I think even you had one recently that, you know, again, I've been following you a long time. I've known all this about you for a long time. But you had one recently that was even like surprising or shocking to me where you talked about during your workday going out and buying miniature bottles of alcohol. And I had, you know, I guess, look, I have to be honest, I don't know that much about alcoholism. I guess this is sort of a learning curve for me too. But I always thought it was like, oh, you just thought that the whole mom wine culture was harmful and that was what turned you towards sobriety. I guess I didn't realize that you had a real problem.
- [06:05]
Erica Anderson
Yeah, that story was. I felt really nervous to share that because I just knew people that I used to work with during that time, maybe even. Yeah, like, I had no idea. I know. And it's, it's so. It's such a weird thing looking back and seeing that. But it, I shared it because it goes to show you that people that are struggling can be hiding in plain sight. You know, you. Just because someone is drinking during the day doesn't mean you're going to know it. And it's not something I was doing every day, but the fact that I was doing it at all and just like the sensationalism of it being, oh, this is in like the U.S. capitol building and, you know, I'm working for some member of Congress and like, what, what in the world is happening here? And so I, you know, share these little tidbits and stories to, to really make people feel seen. And that's not to say you need to be sneaking alcohol at work to quit drinking or have a problem at all. But I think sometimes it's helpful to those that maybe are in those situations to hear like, oh, like, actually Erica was doing stuff like this too and like, look at her now.
- [07:12]
Carol Markowitz
Right. How much of a role did your faith play in your sober journey?
- [07:18]
Erica Anderson
Yeah, I think, I think huge. I mean, I think getting sober was important for me as a whole. But also I really felt that alcohol muddied this relationship I had with God. Like this sort of being in touch with him was, was very blurried when I was drinking a lot. Like, I couldn't hear his voice. I wasn't able to sense maybe the way that God works in our lives on a daily basis. You miss those little things because I. There's A verse in the Bible, I think, in the Old Testament that says something like, God. God doesn't. God never yells. He. He's more like a whisper. Like, I. I tell the story about, you know, there was. I'm gonna. I'm like, blanking on the person's name. It was probably Moses, but somebody being on a mountain.
- [08:06]
Carol Markowitz
And Moses was frequently on mountain.
- [08:08]
Erica Anderson
Yeah, exactly.
- [08:08]
Carol Markowitz
It might have been him.
- [08:09]
Erica Anderson
It might have been him, but he's on the mountain, right? And, you know, they say, like, God wasn't. He wasn't in the wind, and he wasn't in the storm, and he wasn't in the thunder. He was just like a still, small voice. And you miss a lot of that. If you're drinking, you can't sense those things. And you also can't sense, like, the needs of those around you, whether it's like a tone change in your kid's voice or your spouse or your friend. And, like, you really can't be the person that you want to be when you are constantly putting a substance in your body that alters your mental state.
- [08:41]
Carol Markowitz
What do you hope that people get out of freely Sober?
- [08:47]
Erica Anderson
I hope that, you know, a promise that I like to make in the book is once you read this book, you'll never think about alcohol the same way again. So it's not a call to quit drinking. And, like, you know, oh, my gosh, like, you. If you buy this book, like, I want you to quit drinking. That's not what it is. That's why it's called Freely Sober, because we. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, every minute that I told myself, I have to stop drinking, I have to stop drinking, like, that was paralyzing, and it was actually the barrier to actually quitting drinking. But when you step away and actually analyze yourself, your relationship with alcohol, your history, like, under, like, learn about alcohol and how it's played a role in your life, then you can actually, if you want, you can choose not to drink because of what you've learned. And I think reading this book, and this is kind of how it happened for me and reading other books, I walked away. You'll walk away knowing, like, you can't unknow what you just learned. And when you learn something about the way this is impacting you and the way that it impacts society as well, like, it's almost impossible to keep making the same decisions because you know better. And that doesn't mean you quit necessarily right away, but it does mean you step forward in a better direction that maybe leads you to where you need to be in the future. But when you tell yourself you have to quit drinking, it leaves no room to want to quit drinking. And I want to create that space for people so that they actually maybe want to, but not have to.
- [10:17]
Carol Markowitz
Very interesting. I really think that's an interesting point, the freely part, and that you can want to but not have to. That's very well said. What was leaving Cloud 9? What was the Cloud 9 that you had to leave in writing that book?
- [10:31]
Erica Anderson
Yeah, so leaving Cloud 9 was sort of a joint book, really. I wrote it, but it was really about my husband and the trailer park that he grew up in is called Cloud 9 in Arizona. And so we wrote this book. I mean, it really started as just like a, you know, a far fetched idea that we could actually write and publish this book. But essentially it was about his story of growing up in poverty and abuse. And he talked about adverse childhood effects, if anybody's familiar with those, the aces. Like he had nine out of 10 of those. And so his childhood was. Every time he would tell me a story, I was like, oh my gosh, like, we have got to talk about this somehow. And I ended up spending hours interviewing him, ultimately attempting to get a book deal, like, shockingly, actually getting one, and turning it into this book, this story of his healing and redemption through his faith and all the things that he went through as a child and then as an adult. And it sort of comes full circle with the birth of our son at the very end of the book. But I, I often compare it to, I say it's kind of like a faith based hillbilly elegy, a lot of very similar elements.
- [11:40]
Carol Markowitz
I was thinking that, I was thinking.
- [11:40]
Erica Anderson
There'S, you know, like when I've seen J.D. vance in interviews and, you know, I just know a lot about his story from reading that. I just think I'm always like, oh, you and J.D. vance would have so much to talk about. You guys would. Because my husband was also in the military and, you know, a lot of just things that line up. And so, yeah, it was an amazing experience to be able to write that. And so we still to this day will get emails from people that are saying, you know, I really appreciated you writing that because there's so much of my own story that I saw there and to see the redemption that happened, to see what's possible. Like, that's, that's a really cool thing to read about.
- [12:18]
Carol Markowitz
Did you always want to be a writer?
- [12:20]
Erica Anderson
I did. You know, I always say, like, from the time I Was, you know, six years old and I got my first ballerina diary with a little key, lock and key. I always wanted to be a writer. I, I went to journalism school and I didn't get to be an actual, I would say, like real writer to where I'm like really writing my own stuff, like, and publishing it until really more about the time that that book came out. And then I started to recognize, I.
- [12:46]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Mean, it's a great.
- [12:47]
Carol Markowitz
Be a real writer is to write a book.
- [12:49]
Erica Anderson
Yeah, that helps. I mean, and thankfully I was exposed to lots of great networks of people in D.C. working at heritage and National Review that was like, it kind of just showed me what was possible. I didn't even realize. I thought, I finally thought to myself, well, actually, like, normal people like me can actually get their writing seen and published and you can get paid for that. And so it's been like a really fun journey over the past, like six, seven years to experiment with that and do it and put it out there and realize that our words. And you know, this Carol, of course, as a columnist, like, we, they're so powerful. It's so much more powerful than anything you could pay for, anything you could rant about on Facebook when, you know, 25 people see it. When you get your words published and you say something and you say something that matters and thousands or more people see it, like, that's actually making a real difference. And so I'm so passionate about getting people out there to do more of that.
- [13:46]
Carol Markowitz
What would have been like a plan B if the writing career didn't come together?
- [13:50]
Erica Anderson
Well, I've always worked in, you know, the communications world. And so my, as a freelancer, half my life is sort of in digital media strategy. So I guess the plan B is sort of also in action simultaneously.
- [14:04]
Carol Markowitz
So we're gonna take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show. It was nearly two years ago that terrorists murdered more than 1200 innocent Israelis and took 250 hostages. Today, it seems as if the cries of the dead and dying have been drowned out by shouts of antisemitic hatred. And the most brutal attack on Jewish people since the Holocaust has been forgotten. Yet as the world looks away, a light shines in the darkness. It's a movement of love and support for the people of Israel called Flags of Fellowship. And it's organized by the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. And on October 5, just a few weeks away, millions across America will prayerfully plant an Israeli flag in honor and solidarity with the victims of 10-07-2023 and their grieving families. And now you can be part of the movement too. To get more information about how you can join the Flag as a Fellowship movement, visit the fellowship online@ifcj.org that's ifcj.org.
- [15:16]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
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Erica Anderson
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Erica Anderson
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Erica Anderson
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Erica Anderson
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Erica Anderson
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Erica Anderson
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- [17:03]
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- [18:04]
Carol Markowitz
Was there a road that you thought about taking that you didn't take? Or do you feel like you have gone all the ways that you wanted to go?
- [18:12]
Erica Anderson
You know, the only thing I say is that when I first started out in Washington D.C. as an intern back in 2006, I was really afraid. I didn't know what I was doing.
- [18:23]
Carol Markowitz
I mean, who among us really?
- [18:24]
Erica Anderson
Right, right. But I didn't have a mentor, I didn't have a guide. And I don't know, like today I feel so fearless. And I will call anybody, I will interview anybody, I will. The one thing I say is I'm always like, I don't think I could go on Bill Maher because I'd be afraid. Like even though I actually love Bill Maher, but I'd be like so afraid that I'd get like a question that I couldn't an answer and I'd be embarrassed.
- [18:45]
Carol Markowitz
So.
- [18:47]
Erica Anderson
But outside of that, you know, I feel so fearless in a lot of those ways. And so I kind of just wish that back in those early days I had had a mentor, I'd had someone sort of guiding me because I had some like really early success. I wrote for Human Events and you know, had a couple like TV appearances and stuff. But it was so nerve wracking that I just kind of ran away from it all. And I didn't really develop my passion for what I do now until later. So I kind of wish I had been able to leverage that. But otherwise, like, I mean, everything has gone amazing. You know, I get to be a mom to my two kids, which is like my favorite, most important job, of course. And so I wouldn't change anything about that pathway.
- [19:26]
Carol Markowitz
What do you worry about?
- [19:28]
Erica Anderson
Having enough money for retirement? That's one thing.
- [19:31]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, I mean I, you know, constantly saving, I ask that question to all of my guests and you know, the range of answers could be anything. But I have to say nobody said, nobody said retirement yet. And that's one.
- [19:44]
Erica Anderson
It's not my biggest fear, but your Biggest fear.
- [19:48]
Carol Markowitz
It's just, what do you worry about it?
- [19:50]
Erica Anderson
And I am constantly thinking about, like, how much money are we putting into our 401ks? And like, okay, let's make sure we do this, let's make sure we do that. I mean, I would say, you know, and then also me just worrying about, like, let me not fail my children, and I hope they grow up to be good people and productive citizens. And so those are two things that are sort of top of mind all the time.
- [20:08]
Carol Markowitz
How much do you tell your children about your work and especially your freely sober book?
- [20:15]
Erica Anderson
Yeah. So my kids know they're seven and nine. So they know. They would say, like, oh, yeah, like, mom's sober. I don't know that my daughter, who's 7, really is getting it at this point.
- [20:26]
Carol Markowitz
Sure, yeah.
- [20:26]
Erica Anderson
But my son gets it and I don't. Of course they don't know all the crazy stories and some of the stuff that I've talked about online. However, I really like being transparent with them because I think that is going to be really good for them when the time comes for them to make decisions. You know, it's one thing to tell a kid, hey, you shouldn't drink, you're not supposed to drink, but then, you know, you're at home drinking in front of them a lot.
- [20:49]
Carol Markowitz
Sure.
- [20:50]
Erica Anderson
And then, you know, it's another thing to be like, we don't drink and here's why. And we point back to, you know, going back to my husband's story. I mean, his, his mother, like, completely destroyed her life, destroyed their lives through her alcohol and drug use, which we also talk about. That's mental illness and all of these things. And then. But it's also in my family. And so we're able to say, hey, guess what? Like, some people are more prone to being addicted, and you have that in our family. So you need to be really careful about the decisions you make around drugs and alcohol. And of course, right now they're like, we're never going to do that. Well, okay. Of course, you know, you know, they're teenagers. Yeah. So I, I do worry about that, but I know that kids that have a reason are much more likely to really, truly think about what they're doing, as opposed to a kid that's just being told no. And they don't really understand why.
- [21:41]
Carol Markowitz
I think kids notice a lot more than we think. I think back to, My daughter is 15 and she was when the pandemic began. She was 10. I'm not a big drinker. We're Just not big drinkers. I often joke that, like, you know, I'd like to drink more, you know, that kind of thing. But when the pandemic began, we were having kind of FaceTime drinks with our friends a lot. And my daughter, who was 10 at the time, was like, are people developing drinking problems right now? And she was just 10. I mean, there's no reason for her to know that. People did develop drinking problems during the pandemic, and that was a big spur of alcoholism for a lot of people who suddenly found themselves kind of with not a lot to do except open bottles of wine and that kind of thing.
- [22:26]
Erica Anderson
I mean, the most powerful statistic that I cite is that moms with children 5 and under, they increase their drinking by 300%. And that's just like a shocking.
- [22:38]
Carol Markowitz
I'm always like, when I have time, I never, I just never have like the time for it.
- [22:44]
Erica Anderson
Well, it's just, you know, people were ordering in their boxed wine and I remember lots of jokes about that. It was very culturally.
- [22:50]
Carol Markowitz
During the pandemic. Yes, I thought you meant that. I thought you meant in general when they have kids.
- [22:54]
Erica Anderson
I'm like, no, during the pandemic. I mean, it does increase. The pandemic was like ultra, ultra. And I don't, you know, we're, we're yet to see, like, what are the long term effects of that. I mean, I quit drinking during COVID so it definitely, like, it, it stepped up for me. And then I quit drinking in September of 2020. So.
- [23:14]
Carol Markowitz
Wow.
- [23:14]
Erica Anderson
You know, I'm glad, I'm glad to say that, you know, my daughter was 2, my son was 4. They're probably not going to remember any of that. And so I'm thankful, but I can understand why there was such an increase. But the good news is, like, we are seeing a lot more sobriety just across the board, across the nation. Right. Young people aren't drinking anymore for all kinds of reasons. I think the health side of it and people are learning so much more about the connections to cancer and all kinds of other issues. I think that sort of education is making an impact for a lot of people.
- [23:46]
Carol Markowitz
Do you think that lasts? Like, I always kind of think that, you know, yeah, young people aren't really drinking. I also kind of think that they might maybe using other substances more. I feel like weed has become legal in a lot of places. But do you think that that, like, does Gen Z become the generation that kind of breaks the casual drinks after work and the alcohol being a focal point of socializing?
- [24:11]
Erica Anderson
I can't imagine when it is not a focal point of socializing. And I'm not necessarily against that all the time. You know, it's not like, yeah, yeah. But I do think that that's possible because, you know, statistics show the later that you drink for the first time, say you drink for the first time at age 21 or 22 too, you are much less likely to develop a problem with it. The earlier you drink, the more likely you are to develop a problem with it. And so if we have people that are waiting until later, it's better. I do think that that's going to trickle down to have a positive effect on sort of the habits. But you know, the thing is, is I just kind of a random aside, but just it's crazy when you look at aa, you look at Al Anon for family members and just like all the destruction that alcohol has caused in famil how unseriously it is sometimes taken and it is a big deal to really be serious about letting kids know, letting people know that this is a drug. You have to use it responsibly and it's not something to take lightly. Which is what's very scary about college, which is like a sanctioned binge drinking emporium.
- [25:23]
Carol Markowitz
Totally. Yeah. What advice would you give your 16 year old self having to do this all over again? What does 16 year old Erica need to know?
- [25:33]
Erica Anderson
Oh my gosh, I've never thought that like that specific question I would say to, oh my goodness. I would say like lean in to your friends that are not big drinkers and partiers. Try to make some friends that that's not like the focal point of what they're doing and latch onto them in meaningful ways. It's so hard when you're so young and you feel invincible and you're just like, I'm going to worry that later. And that was a lot of my mindset. I'm like, oh sure, like, yeah, like later I'm gonna deal with this. But like right now I'm in college or right now I'm in having fun and I don't know that you can talk a young person out of it. But maybe just to zoom forward and, and to think, actually to think about how it has had affected my family, like my grandfathers who had suffered from alcoholism, like to actually be like, let me sit you down and tell you like what, what you need to know because nobody did that for me, like I'm doing for my kids and, and that, and that may have made an.
- [26:30]
Carol Markowitz
Impact on me and was There, like, was that the start of, you would say, developing a drinking issue, or did that come later?
- [26:38]
Erica Anderson
Yeah, I mean, I really started drinking at about 16 or 17. It was a lot more sort of sporadic back in that time. And I had a lot of guilt about it. Like, I was like. I always say I was like the girl at the party, like, drunk, talking about God to people. Like, so annoying. Nobody likes that person.
- [26:58]
Carol Markowitz
I hate to. I hate to say I kind of would like that person, but. Okay, yeah, I hear you. But we would have been friends. Yeah.
- [27:06]
Erica Anderson
Yeah, for sure. I mean, there are people that love that. And so. But I think it was really my guilt talking. Like, I know I'm not supposed to be doing this. This isn't the right behavior for me, but, you know, I would say things really took a turn for the worse, just like in young adulthood, especially when I was living in D.C. and just. The whole world is alcohol when you're living as an intern in dc.
- [27:27]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [27:28]
Erica Anderson
I mean, everything you mentioned, you know.
- [27:30]
Carol Markowitz
Drinking in the Capitol building, and I was like, I'm sure lots of people drinking in the Capitol building.
- [27:35]
Erica Anderson
I mean, lots and lots under their desks. Like, all right. Like, people actually still have martini lunches. You know, it's. It's.
- [27:41]
Carol Markowitz
Right.
- [27:41]
Erica Anderson
It's almost like it's the 60s all over again for some people.
- [27:45]
Carol Markowitz
It's one of the only acceptable kind of careers where I think that you. It wouldn't be weird at all if I saw a bunch of congressmen having martinis with lunch in dc. It's like a standard thing that happens. Or they're interns, to be honest.
- [27:59]
Erica Anderson
Right, right. And of course, everything is a happy hour. I mean, every event, like, constantly trying to. It's like, let's get as many people here as possible. Free booze.
- [28:06]
Carol Markowitz
I mean, yeah, yeah. Or free food. But yes.
- [28:10]
Erica Anderson
And yeah, both. So.
- [28:12]
Carol Markowitz
Right.
- [28:12]
Erica Anderson
It's a. It's. You really got to. They almost should have, like, an educational, like, you must do alcohol 101 when you come to D.C. to be an intern, because otherwise you're going to get lost in all of this. And it's also, you know, it's like a nostalgic thing. Like, as a journalist, you know, it was like, oh, you're thinking about these, like, old school journalists and, like, meeting in the bottom.
- [28:30]
Carol Markowitz
The basement bar.
- [28:32]
Erica Anderson
And they have those basement bars that are like super. Almost like from a book or something. And so, you know, it's my fault.
- [28:40]
Carol Markowitz
It's funny that you say that nostalgia thing, because I, you know, in the early Days of being a writer, I was like, I'm gonna have a bird. When I do drink, I'm a brown liquor kind of girl. So I'd be like, oh, I'm going to have a bourbon and write my column. And then I'd be like, wow, I cannot write at all on this.
- [28:55]
Erica Anderson
I know some people say they do.
- [28:57]
Carol Markowitz
Better work for me. I am now tired. I want to take a nap. I'm not a drinking writer at all.
- [29:04]
Erica Anderson
Yeah, there is something like that we make up in our heads, really, about being like, oh, I'm just going to go to the bar and it'll be like a fun thing that I'm doing. And even going to a bar by yourself, there was something sophisticated about that for me. I have a memory of doing this. I don't even know where I was in Dupont Circle, and I went to this, like, fancy, cute little bar and I was like, I don't have a martini. And then, like, I had another one and they were like, really big and strong. And then I was like, now I'm in Dupont Circle and I have to get home now.
- [29:32]
Carol Markowitz
Right.
- [29:32]
Erica Anderson
And it doesn't feel so magical anymore.
- [29:34]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, it's not glamorous to now have to figure out my way home.
- [29:38]
Erica Anderson
Right, Right. So the metro is not glamorous. Just FYI, everyone.
- [29:41]
Carol Markowitz
Not at all. Well, I've loved this conversation. I think you're a fantastic writer and you tell a really compelling story. I can't wait to read Freely Sober. Buy it, pre order it now, anywhere you guys get your books. Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
- [30:02]
Erica Anderson
Goodness, that is so hardcore. How to improve your life, I would say, honestly, I would say start taking your spiritual life as seriously as you take the rest of your life. Because when the spiritual and faith component of your life is aligned and strong, I think everything else kind of falls into place after that. And we kind of put that to the side. So I would say, you know, wherever you land there, make that like a really strong focus this year because all your priorities sort of come under that. So that's what I would say.
- [30:38]
Carol Markowitz
I love that she is Erica Anderson. Read her work, order her upcoming book Freely Sober. Read her last book, leaving Cloud 9. Thank you so much for coming on. Erika.
- [30:50]
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- [31:37]
Erica Anderson
Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [31:40]
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Erica Anderson
Whoa, this thing moves.
- [31:55]
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- [32:57]
Erica Anderson
America is changing and so is the world.
- [33:02]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.
- [33:10]
Erica Anderson
I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, dc.
- [33:12]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
I'm Tristan Redman in London and this is the Global Story.
- [33:16]
Erica Anderson
Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.
- [33:22]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I Heart Podcast.