The Karol Markowicz Show: From LGBTQ Activism to Gender Heretic: Ben Appel on Identity Politics & Free Speech

Summary

Podcast Summary – The Karol Markowicz Show: "From LGBTQ Activism to Gender Heretic: Ben Appel on Identity Politics & Free Speech"

Original Air Date: January 21, 2026
Podcast: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show (iHeartPodcasts) | The Karol Markowicz Show
Host: Carol Markowitz
Guest: Ben Appel, author of CIS White Gay: The Making of a Gender Heretic

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Episode Overview

This episode features journalist and memoirist Ben Appel, whose 2025 book CIS White Gay: The Making of a Gender Heretic explores his journey from active engagement in LGBTQ+ activism to his critical stance on identity politics and gender ideology, particularly within progressive circles. Host Carol Markowitz and Appel discuss the evolution of gender discourse, the challenges of dissent within activist communities, the risks of ideological conformity, and the broader effects of identity politics on social cohesion and free speech.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben Appel’s Background and Road to “Gender Heretic”

• Activism & Academic Pursuits:
  • Started activism on Maryland’s marriage equality campaign (2012) and trans rights legislation (2013) ([02:12]).
  • Transitioned from a hairstylist to journalism, pursued an undergraduate degree at Columbia ([02:44]).
  • Immersed in humanities at Columbia, surrounded by queer and postcolonial theory ([03:19]).
• First Doubts and Dissent:
  • Noted the shift: “Theoretical ideas about gender and about sex … are now doctrine. There’s no arguing with them, no dissent. It was a completely different landscape than even what I had encountered five years earlier.” (Ben Appel, [03:00])
  • Began as an “inside heretic,” later openly voiced dissent ([04:28]).

2. How the Meaning of LGBTQ+ Activism Changed

• Evolution of Trans Rights Advocacy:
  • Early campaigns focused on fair housing/employment ([06:48]).
  • Didn’t realize legal changes would “nullify sex” and upend definitions:

    “Adding gender identity to the anti-discrimination act at the state level, it nullifies sex because … sex is no longer means anything. … That’s why yesterday you have the Supreme Court arguing about males in female sports. This utterly bizarre and totally asinine idea.”
    — Ben Appel ([07:41])

• Problems with Alphabet Acronym:
  • Lumping L, G, B, T, Q together creates an artificial consensus; “There’s great dissent and diversity of voice and opinion.” ([08:04])
  • Raises contradiction: “If gender doesn’t matter, what does gay mean? … It makes no difference if gender’s not a thing.” — Carol Markowitz ([08:48])

3. Comparing Trans Issues with Marriage Equality & The Loss of Meaning

• Differences in Movements:
  • “It’s apples and oranges. … When we’re talking about scientific reality, we’re talking about the building blocks of why we’re still here, why we’ve been able to propagate our species.” — Ben Appel ([09:07])
  • On erasure of sex/gender boundaries:

    “If there’s no definition of sex, how can someone be discriminated on the basis of sex? … It’s completely incoherent.”
    — Ben Appel ([09:49])

4. Social and Personal Consequences of Dissent

• Within the LGBTQ+ and Progressive Communities:
  • Was called “cis white gay” in a derogatory way ([11:11]):

    “It was said in the same tone that kids in middle school called me gay or the S word for gay in middle school years ago. … I was like, if I ever write about this, I’m going to call my book that.”
    — Ben Appel ([12:25])

  • Hierarchies of intersectionality—“the more oppressed you are, the more … power you have. So you know, white males … bottom rung.” ([12:26])
  • Critique: “All these faux solutions were completely regressive and boldly racist and sexist.” ([12:25])
• Losing Friends & Finding Solidarity:
  • Lost friends, especially liberal female friends, more than gay male friends ([13:28]).
  • Noted the hypocrisy: “Now the Washington Post is able to just casually fling it out there that [men in female sports] isn’t a problem at all … after years of us pulling our hair out.” — Ben Appel ([13:55])
  • On psychological cost: “It was actually making me sick mentally and physically, keeping all these thoughts and dissent in. That makes people sick.” ([14:39])

5. The Danger of Ideological Absolutism & Its Reaction

• Newton’s Third Law of Politics:
  • Deepening polarization: “For every action there’s an equal and opposite reaction. … So much is reactionary, reacting to the opposite side without really thinking what is best for the American people.” ([21:37])
  • “I’m afraid we’re going to be electing this crazy leftist, then … who knows what.” ([22:58])
• Polarization & Identity Focus:
  • “What did the left think when they told everybody to focus on their race? … Now we’re seeing the insane right and their obsession with their white heritage as reaction.” — Carol Markowitz ([23:09])
  • Ben describes incidents of racial divisiveness and fear of speaking honestly at Columbia ([23:59]).

6. Signs of Change and Optimism

• Shifting Overton Window:
  • Carol notes in 2025, “We had a hard time selling [the book Stolen Youth] because of the transgender chapter … even to conservative publishers. … Things have changed for the better.” ([25:14])

7. Personal Triumph and Advice

• Ben’s Journey of Recovery and Accomplishment:
  • Overcame religious fundamentalist upbringing, heroin addiction ([20:16]).
  • “At the end of this month, January 31st, I’ll have 20 years clean and sober. … That’s what I’m proud of, is that I just still have a life to lead.” — Ben Appel ([20:43])
• Advice for Listeners:
  • “Say what you think. … Common sense really does ring true with people. … Just be unafraid to say out loud what you think. … It’s hugely liberating, terrifying at first, but the sky didn’t fall.” — Ben Appel ([26:06])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I was a heretic on the inside at first, keeping my thoughts … slowly built the courage to kind of openly dissent and talk back.”
  — Ben Appel ([04:26])

• “If gender doesn’t matter, what does gay mean … it really doesn’t make sense to lump them in.”
  — Carol Markowitz ([08:39])

• “It was actually making me sick mentally and physically, keeping all of these thoughts and this dissent in … That’s what part of my book is about as well.”
  — Ben Appel ([14:39])

• “For every action there’s an equal and opposite reaction. … That’s what worries me. … The furthest, most radical left and most radical right contingents are going to be speaking for all of us.”
  — Ben Appel ([21:37])

• “Say what you think. … It’s hugely liberating. … I didn’t die, I didn’t spontaneously combust. I’m still here, I’m still breathing.”
  — Ben Appel ([26:06])

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:07 | Ben’s introduction—road to activism and Columbia University | | 03:00 | Realization of doctrine-and-dissent atmosphere in academia | | 06:29 | Early activism vs contemporary trans politics | | 09:07 | Nuanced differences: marriage equality vs. trans issues | | 11:11 | Meaning of "cis white gay," intersectional hierarchy critique | | 13:28 | Social consequences: losing friends for dissent | | 14:39 | Psychological cost of silence, need to speak up | | 21:37 | Predictions about polarization and political reaction | | 23:59 | Examples of campus identity dynamics and resultant silencing | | 25:14 | Shifts in public discourse; optimism for the future | | 26:06 | Ben's life advice: "say what you think" |

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Episode Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, at times irreverent, and combines personal storytelling with pointed cultural critique. Both Carol and Ben champion open discussion, “saying what you think,” and express a longing for nuance and common sense over ideological conformity.

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Recommendation

Listeners interested in the intersection of LGBTQ+ issues, identity politics, free speech, and the evolution of progressive activism will find this episode particularly engaging. Ben Appel’s personal journey adds authenticity and emotional depth to debates often conducted in the abstract, while his willingness to critique his own communities offers rare and valuable perspective.

Transcript

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[Carol Markowitz]

Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iheartradio. My guest today is Ben Appel. Ben is the author of CIS White Gay the Making of a gender Heretic, a new memoir about his experience in social justice activism and the. Ben has also written for the Wall Street Journal, the New York Post, Newsweek, the Free Press, Unherd, and many others. Hi, Ben. So nice to have you.

[Ben Appel]

Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

[Carol Markowitz]

So I have to start with that title. How did you become a gender heretic?

[Ben Appel]

Oh, gosh, it was a. It was a. An evolution. You know, I. Back in 2012 is when I began my work in, I guess you could say LGBT activism. I worked on Maryland's marriage equality campaign. I volunteered for that and then a subsequent trans rights legislation campaign in 2013 in Maryland. And those two experiences were kind of the impetus that led Me back to school. You know, I was. I had been a hairstylist for a number of years in the D.C. area. And, you know, after a couple years, I just wanted to do more with my life. And after I got married, you know, I. My husband and I said, I want to be an activist. I want to be a journalist. I want to do more in this world. And he encouraged me, and that led me to community college, to eventually us moving to New York so that I could attend Columbia. And so I. I got my undergraduate degree at Columbia. And that was in 2017, January, when my first semester began. So I was, like, ready to hit the road with, you know, just fully on board, you know, hashtag resisting.

[Carol Markowitz]

Some interesting timing there, right?

[Ben Appel]

And. And then, you know, so I got involved, interned for glaad, LGBT rights organization that summer. And so while I'm kind of entering into this space and realizing all of these things that I was trying to achieve, I'm suddenly realizing that there are these once theoretical ideas about gender and about sex, like they're now doctrine. Like there's no arguing with them, there's no dissent. And it was a completely different landscape than even what I had encountered five years earlier. And then being immersed in the Columbia classrooms, in these humanities classrooms, where I was spending so much time, you know, in learning things through the lens of queer theory, post colonial colonial theory, you know, all of it was. It was just so immersive at the same time. And so my brain, you know, here I am in my 30s, and I have these, you know, critical thinking skills to kind of think, this sounds backwards. This doesn't sound right. This sounds counterintuitive. This sounds completely regressive. And, you know, so I started. I was a heretic on the inside at first, keeping my thoughts.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's always where it starts.

[Ben Appel]

Slowly built the courage to kind of openly dissent and talk back.

[Carol Markowitz]

Did your husband have the same sort of journey? I think I always think about that. The people who kind of shift politically, do their spouses or their partners, you know, shift with them or not?

[Ben Appel]

He was a little stunned by the way that I would speak about things initially. For the first few years, you know, I would come home from Columbia and I would be like, these kids are bananas, like they're nuts. And I would give him anecdotes and kind of describe things in my reaction, and he, you know, was just not in that environment, so he really couldn't understand. But the way that I was articulating things, thankfully he understood what I was communicating. We didn't fully get to see. Until, you know, as a few years passed, it kind of became where things exploded past university gates into, like, the mainstream. It was when everybody kind of became more aware and. And it wasn't just the folks that were in those spaces, it was elsewhere where people were becoming aware of it too. So he and I are different people. We have certainly different opinions about things. We have disagreements and so on. And so, yeah, he's a very strongly opinionated person and he has a lot of his own views and that works for us. I like that. It keeps it interesting.

[Carol Markowitz]

I love that. You know, I have to say that in 2017, I was always a conservative. I like to say, you know, I was born in the Soviet Union, I came to America. You're not going to be a liberal, it's just not how it goes. But in 2017, I would have said that the trans issue, if people were talking about it and saying, like, oh, this is really going to be a problem, I think I would have been like, no, it's not like, no, it's fine. Because I wasn't in that university space. And, you know, people like Abigail Schreier were starting to talk about it and write about it, but they were very few and far between. So the fact that you saw it up close, I think must have been shocking to you.

[Ben Appel]

It was. And I think that there, no one was really aware of what, let's say, the trans rights movement was asking of society. You know, it's one thing like when I worked in, you know, that's it.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's the whole thing. What they were asking of society changed, right?

[Ben Appel]

And so back in 2013, when I was working on this, this legislation, like volunteering for this, this and this, you know, trans rights campaign, it was about, you know, discrimination in employment, in housing and so forth. And I thought, well, yeah, it's not right to, you know, be able to. To deny housing to someone because they're. They identify as trans. Right. So there was. But what I didn't know at the time and what was kind of verboten to speak about even in liberal circles were, was the fact that adding gender identity to the Anti Discrimination act at the state level, it nullifies sex because it's just if you add gender identity, sex is, no, no longer means anything. So you can just say, I'm a woman, I'm a man, it doesn't really matter. So if you're adding gender identity into this, sex becomes completely meaningless. And that's what we're seeing. That's why yesterday, you know, for folks that are gonna see this in a week or a couple weeks, we've had the Supreme Court arguing about males in female sports. This utterly bizarre and totally asinine idea, but it's reached the highest levels of our government judicial system. And they have to argue about these things because of all. Everything that people were just really unaware.

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[Ben Appel]

Of what was going on. It was just the kind and the right thing to accept and to do. It was the next kind of gay rights thing. You know, people were like, sure, I want people to be able to marry. And so, yeah, this makes sense. You know, it's all part of the same community, but it's a very, very different thing. And so even that acronym, lgbt, lgbtq, lumping all of these identities together, it's bizarre because it creates this idea that there's, you know, just a monolith, a monolithic way of thinking about all things. And there. There is not at all. There's great dissent and diversity of voice and opinion.

[Carol Markowitz]

Also, if gender doesn't matter, what does gay mean? What does straight mean? Like, it's like, it makes no difference if, if gender is not a thing, if we're not specifically attracted to one gender over another, it really doesn't make sense to lump them in. And actually, what I wanted to ask you was, you know, you fought for marriage equality, and there's a lot of voices on the left right now comparing trans people in sports to the fight for marriage equality. What do you think about that?

[Ben Appel]

I think it's bizarre. I think that it's insane. I mean, you know, sex differences are real. This is. These are the basic building blocks. You can argue, and I'm. I welcome arguments about, like, marriage is, you know, supposed to be between a man or a woman, woman and in a woman or so on. Like, I. None of that really. It doesn't scare me. I'm a grownup, I'm a big boy. I can handle it. And so that's a difference of opinion. But when we're talking about scientific reality, we're talking about the building blocks of, of why we're still here, why we've been able to propagate our species. It's. It's apples and oranges. It's a completely different thing. So. Yeah, and going back to what you said, if gender, sex. Sex and gender are different, I wish we could just forget about gender altogether. I mean, it can be useful in describing things, but people have just completely co. Opted that to. To mean so many different things, and it actually ends up being ultimately really confusing. It's not so complicated. It could actually be really simple. And it is really simple. And you kind of saw, you see that again. You see when people are arguing about these things for males and females. Well, what does sex mean? Well, what does. Well, if there's no different definition of sex, then how can someone be discriminated on the basis of sex? I mean, it's, it's completely incoherent and there's, and, and so it doesn't make any sense. But I saw that from the beginning back in 2017. I think that was the biggest wake up for me was when I started seeing like straight women.

[Carol Markowitz]

Oh yeah.

[Ben Appel]

You know, identifying as, as gay males. Like first non binary, then trans, then he, him pronouns, then suddenly they're, you know, on gay dating apps for men. It was a really so funny, disorienting.

[Carol Markowitz]

And bizarre, like, you're just a straight lady, ma', am, you know, that's it.

[Ben Appel]

And that's okay, right?

[Carol Markowitz]

And that's fine. Yeah. It's funny that now we have to be like, it's okay to be straight. It's totally fine, you know. You know, the other part of your title is CIS white gay. Was it hard to be a CIS white gay in that era in New York City?

[Ben Appel]

Yeah. And that's why I wanted to call it this, because, you know, I know that there are so many folks that are like allergic to the word CIS and cisgender and I am as well. It's like a highly, for lack of a better word, triggering word for a lot of folks. And I completely understand that and why I'm using it is hopefully people understand or most people do get that I'm using it ironically, that it is this. From the beginning I was called this CIS white gay. A totally new concept and understanding. I didn't know what it meant, but immediately people were in my so called community and other progressives around me were calling me this in a derogatory way, know, pronouncing it in the same way that, you know, kids in middle school called me gay, or, you know, the S word for gay in middle school years ago it was said in that same tone. And I'm like, what is this? And I realized, and so if so I started kind of just hearing that so much. And it just goes down to this identity, like, you know, this kind of hierarchy of intersectionality, dumbing it down is, you know, the more oppressed you are, you know, the higher up on this hierarchy you are and the more or kind of cultural cache or power you have. So you know, white males, you know, and.

[Carol Markowitz]

And then bottom rung.

[Ben Appel]

Yeah, bottom rung. And it was kind of just very. And look like there's something to be said for racism is real. Sexism is. Is. Is real. But all of these. These kind of faux solutions that progressives were, you know, coming up with were completely regressive and in fact, boldly racist and sexist. So, you know, it just. It was completely backwards, you know. But when I. When I started hear, I over and over again CIS white gay, I got so sick of it. And I was like, if one more person calls me this. And so I was like, if I ever write about this, I'm gonna call my book that. And that's what I did. Just across the title CIS white gay. Like, this is the problematic take from scary, horrible, evil colonizers like me. This is who are the blight of the universe, apparently, you know. So, yeah, that's what I wanted to do.

[Carol Markowitz]

Was it hard to come out to your, I guess, gay community with these thoughts? I imagine it had to be, yes.

[Ben Appel]

What's.

[Carol Markowitz]

Do you still have any friends?

[Ben Appel]

I've lost friends. 100% lost friends, interestingly. Well, no, I've lost gay male friends, interestingly, I've mostly lost liberal female friends, which do with that as you will. Yeah, I've mostly lost liberal female friends. Now. What's interesting is, okay, so recently we had the Washington Post, like, come out with this editorial being like, of course males can't compete with in female sports.

[Carol Markowitz]

Right, right. They're all of coursing it now.

[Ben Appel]

Right. Of coursing it. Whereas we've all been pulling our hair out for however many years. And, you know, for people that are not to paint myself as any kind of victim or anything like that, but for people that are of the liberal universe and the progressive, at great detriment to our reputations, to our friendships, to our relationships coming out and saying. And then suddenly the Washington Post is able to just casually fling it out there that this isn't a problem at all. So I start to see where people are even themselves saying things out loud. And, you know, and I get it. I really don't. There's a lot of people that I don't blame for staying quiet because it is really frightening. There's been nothing fun about this.

[Carol Markowitz]

I imagine that's true.

[Ben Appel]

Yeah. Really. It's just been something that I had to do because I. It was actually making me sick mentally and physically, keeping all of these thoughts and this descent in that makes people sick. And that's what Part of my book is about as well. And so I had to get this stuff out. And so now I see other people responding in this way. And so now the gay people that are messaging me and saying like, oh my gosh, thank you so much for writing this. I knew I wasn't the two things that people keep saying, they're like, I couldn't put it down. Which is like the best thing that an author can do because there's so much information in there. And so I wanted to make. And it's, it's a message. So I wanted it to be storytelling as well. They say I couldn't put it down. And I felt like I was reading my own thoughts. They're like, it's so therapeutic. I felt like you were in my. Which is such a gratifying thing because I did really want to make people feel not alone. And I think it is not just for gay people for sure, but for people that have just witnessed the past five, 10 years of just some pretty bonkers stuff going on in our world.

[Carol Markowitz]

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[Carol Markowitz]

And they, they look to somebody brave to speak up first. And I love that you did that. And I hope that you get the support that you deserve because these are not easy things to say. Even now, even in 2025, 2026, it's not easy to break with your community and say the truth. We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.

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[Carol Markowitz]

Ben, what are you most proud of in your life?

[Ben Appel]

I'm most proud of the fact that I still have a life to lead. Like that I've, that I've created and cultivated a life that's a successful on paper but in real life, I mean in my, you don't know a lot about me, but in my book, I mean I came up in religious fundamentalism. We left that when I was 12. But then I, I developed a very serious drug addiction and alcohol problem. So, you know, I'm 20 years old and I'm shooting heroin. So. Yeah, so.

[Carol Markowitz]

So you've seen some things.

[Ben Appel]

I've seen some things. So, you know, getting clean and sober in my early 20s and building a life for myself, first a career, then, you know, a relationship. I've been Married for over 11 years now. Graduating from Columbia, writing a book, doing all of these things to just consistently, you know, at the end of this month, January 31st, I'll have 20 years clean and sober, you know, and so to build this life from it, that's, that's what I'm proud of is that I, I just still have a life to, to lead. Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah. I think you have a very, very bright future. It's true. I don't know you that well. I'm really glad we're gonna get, you know, we're getting to talk a little bit today and I can get to know you and I' following you now on all the platforms. So I'm hoping to learn more about you, give us a five year out prediction. It could be about anything at all.

[Ben Appel]

You know, that's a really good question. And I, I'm so afraid about this, the polarization that's going on. I'm afraid that it's, we're going to, it's going to become even more. Where the furthest, most radical left and most radical right contingents of our population are going to be speaking for all of us and the rest of us are just going to be bopping around in the middle. I always think about this analogy, Newton's third law of motion, where for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. So I find that so prevalent in politics. It's just the left and right. So much is reactionary, reactionary, reacting to the opposite side without really thinking what is best for the American people and what is best for us, what's best for our country. And so that's what worries me. I'm afraid that it is going to be further if if there is a. If, if we can make it to the opposite, where it can be different from that, where we finally just have had it with that, then. Then we're really gonna save this country. But yeah, I'm afraid that if we continue down that road, it's going to be like we're going to be electing this crazy leftist, then we're going to be elected. I mean, who knows what.

[Carol Markowitz]

Yeah, could be aoc. Definitely.

[Ben Appel]

It could be aoc. And so, you know, thankfully, Mamdani can't win because he wasn't born in the U.S. but, you know, I mean, he would. Honestly, he would if he could.

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I agree.

[Carol Markowitz]

I think he would have a real strong chance. Yeah, either Gavin Newsom or aoc. But, you know. Yeah, you were talking about the bottom rung, you know, white and cis. And I was thinking that what we're seeing now with the insane right and their obsession with, you know, their white heritage and all of that, that is the reaction to that. What did, what did the left think when they told everybody to focus on their race? That was going to mean, not the crazy white, you know, contingency. It means everybody's gonna focus on their race. So, yeah, I think what we're seeing right now is a direct reaction to what you saw in 2017 and what we kind of became widespread in the early 2000s. This is, this is where it came from, 100%.

[Ben Appel]

And I actually, you know, the subtitle of my book is the Making of a Gender Heretic. But it actually goes into so much about race and identity as well. So it's, it's not just about that. And I have that. I mean, when I was at Columbia and I share these student stories about, you know, my. Another guy, a white student, who started having panic attacks in class because he was you know, kind of essentially screamed at, right. For offering actually help and encouragement to a black student. But because he was white, he wasn't supposed to be doing that because he didn't know the black experience. And it was interpreted as talking down to. And he, he, he no longer wanted to speak. Then there's other folks who. There was a. When I was at the university, there was a young student, a white male student who. It went viral on social media. A lot of listeners might remember this. A student who was on, on video saying, like, white people created the Western civilization. White people are the greatest, and da, da, da. And it became this whole viral thing. But he was drunk and he was. And I write about this and I write about my own Experience of actually reaching these new levels of depression and isolation there and being like, this is the natural reaction. This is what's going to happen. This is so counterproductive. You're going to have people doing worse. This is not the way out of this.

[Carol Markowitz]

My only kind of spot of optimism is that you're able to write about, you know, being a gender heretic. And your book came out in November, right? So 2025, just a few years ago, Bethany Mandel and I co authored a book, Stolen Youth, and we had a hard time selling it because of the transgender chapter. And I'm talking. We had a hard time selling it to conservative publishers who would say, we love this book. Can you just take out the transgender chapter? And we were like, no, we can't do that.

[Gold Investment Advertiser]

Things have shifted.

[Carol Markowitz]

Things have changed for the better. So, you know, maybe that's the only point of optimism, is that things were really crazy for a little while and they've improved. Maybe I like that. We'll see. Ben, I have loved this conversation. I have loved getting to know you. Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.

[Ben Appel]

Say, saying what you think. I mean, if I were to teach a writing class, it would be write what you think. If I was to teach a worrying class, it would be, say what you think. Say what you think you think. And it can be matter of factly, because common sense, you know, it really does ring true with people. And what is. Is unfortunately, again, going back to that idea of these. Of these. The more radical contingents of people, as if they're representing the majority of the American people. They're not. And so you think that what they're saying is actually what everybody else is thinking. And that's not the case at all. So just be unafraid to say out loud what. What you think. And. And. And from there, and it's actually hugely liberating. It can be terrifying from the beginning. And I. I've gotten in vast amounts of trouble for which was like, my biggest fear. I didn't want to be seen as a bad person. That was my growing up religious, growing up in this Christian community. I just wanted to be a good person. And so being a heretic, it was. It was. It was awful. It was, you know, very, very traumatizing. But getting through that, the sky didn't fall. I didn't die. I didn't spontaneously combust. I'm still here. I'm still breathing and getting to the. And then it just opens up this new world of possibility because you start to meet new people that are also speaking their mind and also saying what they think and you're like, you can breathe, you know.

[Gold Investment Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Carol Markowitz]

Be brave. Like Ben. Check out his book CIS White the Making of a Gender Heretic. He is Ben Appel. Thank you so much for coming on Ben.

[Ben Appel]

Thank you for having me. This coffee shop running smooth thanks to Genius from Global Payments, Instant Transactions, effortless inventory and synchronized operations, big league reliability for any business. That's genius.

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