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The Karol Markowicz Show: Inside Israel's Elite: Guy M. on October 7, Combat Trauma & Lessons from War
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- [00:00]
Carol Markowitz
This is an Iheart podcast.
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Carol Markowitz
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- [02:37]
Guy M.
Cool.
- [02:37]
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- [02:53]
Guy M.
Hi and welcome back to the Carol Marco show on iHeartradio. My guest today is Guy M. Guy is the semi anonymous author of the rescue October 7th through the eyes of Israel's Pararescue Commandos. So nice to have you on Guy.
- [03:07]
Carol Markowitz
Thank you for having me Carol on your amazing show.
- [03:09]
Guy M.
Thank you. I loved your book. I really found it so amazing. You know, a lot of the time I think especially Jews like we tell and retell the stories and I even, you know, I got to where my kids, my teenager who reads a lot would be like no more holocaust books books. But it's important to retell the stories so that people know what really happened. And I feel like that was the point for you in writing this book, right?
- [03:39]
Carol Markowitz
So originally it's kind of hard to really point out what was the purpose of writing the book because we were in the middle of war literally rescuing casualties from Gaza, from Lebanon, after, in this mid war situation. And me and the guys that were together on October 7 on the first team to leave 669, which is Israel's special forces rescue unit. We found ourselves on that day and the two, three days afterwards in the communities we were witnessing the most horrible scenes no one could even imagine. And then no closure, nothing. No like ceremony. That kind of wraps it up. One day we're just at base preparing for war and then we're in war doing our jobs. I'm a paramedic. I was trained for three years to do this job. I'm in med school now. I haven't been on duty like actual war duty since my mandatory service back then from 2013 to 2018. And there was no closure. And this is also the experience of so many soldiers talking, maybe thousands because it's not like the whole Israeli army was there on October 7, but for thousands of us that were there, we just continued into this full blown war. And you're absolutely right. There are so many events happening right after each other and it's, we're living in times that it's even hard to grasp the magnitude of each event as itself. Remember we're so shocked when the beeper operation that was our cord as a rescue unit for the beginning of the war, of eliminating the threat from Lebanon, from up north. And then we're still kind of trying to grasp that magnitude. And then we're at this point after one of the most brilliant operations, I guess, in modern war, the how President Trump called it, to stay war with Iran. So for us, it's even hard to point out what was the purpose. But if I tried to kind of put it into an essence, we needed to put a closure to that event. So we started writing it. And it was amazing for me to see what the guys with the soldiers that were with me through bulks, from the things that we saw from the gunshots with the terrorists, with treating casualties, mass casualties and the horrors, the bodies and chunks of the timeline were missing. And it was putting it together was as itself an amazing, amazing act for me to witness this. And it brought emotion to the guys, because for soldiers, rescue soldiers in general, for soldiers, we understand mission, we know mission. So when we need to do a mission, we know what to do. Emotions, not really.
- [06:20]
Guy M.
That's part of the problem, not part of the equation.
- [06:22]
Carol Markowitz
Way harder. If you ask a 21 rescue soldier from 669 to jump out of the helicopter in the middle of the ocean, doesn't even know it's waiting while he's jumping into the water, he won't even blink. If you can ask him to talk about how is he feeling, then you're going to see this torturous face on him. So even that for itself, to see the guys bringing it together was amazing. And until today, you know, I'm not a psychologist, but they think it's so clear why until today, there is more than we're not even two years from October 7th. There's more than 100 books in Hebrew about October 7th, 100. And many may be in English or not many, but there will be. And still this is the rescue and how it's called in Hebrew. It's called, I'll say it in Hebrew, not waiting for call. So it's the only book written by soldiers who actually fought there and not by journalists or testimonies of victims.
- [07:15]
Guy M.
That's such an interesting point. I don't think people realize how much, how little firsthand account is in the books. Like a lot of people will have takes, as we say, and they'll have perspective. But your story is actually the one from the ground. What do people not know about that day that they'll learn in your book?
- [07:35]
Carol Markowitz
One of the things that we did want to emphasize, not intentionally, but as we were Talking and the guys were describing is for one how little we knew if I will tell you today, Carol, that tomorrow there's going to be aliens landing in Washington. President Trump talking to him about the, I don't know, life in another universe. You're going to look at me like I smoked something or something. I don't know.
- [08:01]
Guy M.
I don't know. I might believe you after the incident.
- [08:03]
Carol Markowitz
You might believe me. So I'm going to try to think about even something more bizarre.
- [08:08]
Guy M.
Okay.
- [08:08]
Carol Markowitz
And this is from. I guess that's if we're talking about most people. They were like, well, most likely that's not going to happen. Right. We couldn't imagine in our worst nightmares what happened on October 7th. It was so, so far fetched. When we're going down and we're driving down south on October 7th morning in a pickup truck, we thought to ourselves what we could imagine. There's a group of terrorists, dozen 20 that infiltrated through a tunnel to Israeli grounds and that they're holding hostages in one of the communities. We couldn't imagine 3,000 people looking to butcher Israelis. It's not in our capability right today, looking back as Israel's society is very critical, of course on the army and intelligence, in the government, as soldiers, as the ones. And I'm civilian. This is not my daily job. And this is also some sort of thing that is very hard to explain. We had no clue. And we tried, you know, to emphasize that in the book through the story itself, we were just a group of guys going down trying to do our best in the circumstances that are just, just unreasonable to judge. And also, if I may say, also, we didn't want it to be a testimony. We wanted the reader to get caught in the web of the book. Not because he wants to know about October 7th, but rather he's reading a thriller that he has to know how it ends. He's caught inside the web of the book. That was very important for us.
- [09:35]
Guy M.
Right. I felt like that, like where you know, you're worrying about the protagonist even though I know you live to write the book. But you were an active danger danger more than one time on that day. What do you remember about it?
- [09:50]
Carol Markowitz
I think when I look back, and even for me, it's so hard to even imagine that it actually happened. And I remember that this is a mechanism that everyone, we all use it but rescue soldiers in our mission, we always do that. We kind of downgrade the situation to gain back control because if you're gonna actually try to grasp that you're in this situation that your life is in danger, you're trying to rescue someone that won't survive. And the whole gratitude of responsibility, it's just so hard to function. So we always do this degradation. And if, to give an example, what guys after the pipeline, after they finished a, what year and a half training at the unit, the first rescue missions, when they go back and report and do the briefing, they say like they felt in a drill in the pipeline, they thought the casualty, it was actually injured soldier, civilian, or even humanitarian mission. But still they say we felt like we're in the simulator at the unit, treating a mannequin like a doll. Like the. That's the feeling. So we're always doing this degradation. So I remember I'm driving down south on October 7th and Noga back then, my fiance now won't tell the end of the story. And she's texting me, guy, this is serious, be careful. And they're like, yeah, yeah, she's always too serious. She always takes stuff too serious. She's, you know, she's a lawyer. Of course she has to be serious. I could. It was just degradating until at some point, you know, we're driving down and someone. There's open fire from. From so many directions and we're trying to what the heck is going on? And then it hits you.
- [11:24]
Guy M.
This is real.
- [11:25]
Carol Markowitz
It's. It's not even real. It's just the beginning. And it. When we think, okay, we got to the most chaotic scene when you reach the Nova Festival, and then we're sent to liberate a community. Liberate. It's like, that's the word. It's under the control of a. Or organization, terrorist organization, and we're trying to liberate it. These are terms that we've never. We've never experienced, never talked. And as a rescue unit, we're always preparing for the worst. We're always training ourselves to the worst scenario. Try to imagine the most worst scenario that could happen on this special operation or on this rescue mission. That's why we're preparing. This was never, never nothing we prepared for was even close to what we saw and witnessed or experienced there.
- [12:07]
Guy M.
Wow. When you get to the kibbutz to liberate it, what do you see?
- [12:14]
Carol Markowitz
First thing that comes to my mind is how I feel. Because I grew up in a kibbutz and in a community in northern Israel, a rural community. And I feel. Suddenly I feel like I'm back home at the community where I grew up. It feels. And this is the second that I kind of give that emotion a place and it freaks me out. I mean, it looks like the houses of my neighbors. And that. No guy, you're not there, you're in a mission and you need to go back into the zone to gain that control. And then the second thing I remember I see is there's so many bodies everywhere, mostly of terrorists. The emergency team, first responders there, that was the first kibbutz we arrived. Our squad, the three of us that were sent down south that day, first kibbutz we arrived was Nahal Oz. And the guys there, the team, the first responders of the kibbutz, guys from the kibbutz families, not only guys, also girls, women that have rifles and first responders there. For an event like this, they gave a hell of a fight. They were 10, maybe 15, caught by surprise. And there were dozens of terrorists storming, well equipped. I see bodies of terrorists on the floor with ammunition, like they're going to conquer the whole country with food, with medicine, everything. And they gave a hell of a fight. That's the first thing that I saw. And it kind of gave me a boost of confidence to see that happening. And then of course, we were caught into a gun fight as the terrorists opened fire at us.
- [13:43]
Guy M.
What was that like? Like, what did you, what do you think in that moment? You're, you're there to liberate the kibbutz and you're under fire. I mean, do you, are you feeling like this is it for me, or do you have the kind of training where you're like, oh no, I'm going to walk out of here.
- [14:02]
Carol Markowitz
This, in some sort of a point of view, is the essence of being a soldier. If it's, it doesn't matter even where at some point you cannot think, it's only about function. You do not think. Because if you think there's nothing, nothing logical about that situation, yeah, you gotta be functional. And for me, when I hear gunshots, when I see situation that there are casualties, I'm all my whole 100 of my body. And I'm just one example of many combat paramedics in the army and very few or many rescue soldiers at the unit. It's all about where is a person who needs my help. Because there's always going to be that scream, I need a paramedic. There's always going to be that scream of someone that is shot. And you're always, your senses are just looking for that because that's your call, that's where you get into action. So so this is what you feel. Of course, you look around if there's a threat. So with your rifle, that's the first thing you do. And then you're alert to listen to where someone, where is that person that is screaming? And I need to do whatever it takes to get to him. So those are animal instincts that are brought up in years of training and into active duty. And it's just an instinct. I was honestly, honestly, honestly, of course, never imagined I'll be in a situation like that. But how it kicks in those instants, it's amazing.
- [15:28]
Guy M.
So when somebody reads the rescue, what's the thing that you want them to take away from it?
- [15:33]
Carol Markowitz
I want them to understand and try to understand through this, not through what the figures are saying, because we wrote it from where a bunch of guys sat together and we wrote it from the different angles. One of the stories that unfolds is of Ron, that he wakes up at his kibbutz with Tamar and they find themselves fighting over their homes. Their parents are in, their sister and their whole family. And this is, this is it. If they don't fight, everybody slaughtered. They understand it at some point, not at the beginning. And when there is, Matan is on a helicopter on the way to a rescue mission and he doesn't know what's. What he's going to find. And it hits him only after he lands at the hospital and he sees what's going on television. And for us, you know, I'm texting Noga. Yes, don't worry. I put my helmet on and I'm like sitting there, you know, what the heck, you know, what's the big deal? We didn't know. That's the first thing. And second of all, for soldiers, and this is a very. It's not a unique perspective, as it's not as it's only for us. This is for thousands of soldiers that went down. We tried our best, we tried. We had no clue and many of us didn't make it back. And history, as it remembers those days, it's going to remember it in a critical point of view. It's going to judge all those who had responsibility that things like this don't happen. But we want history also to remember what those circumstances were as we tried our best to do whatever we can and the toll was so high. So those are the main messages that we tried to convey through the stories, not by saying it, but through the feelings, through the guts of the reader. And also, also, also, and even maybe the most important, we insisted on finishing the Book with happy note or optimistic, if I might say. That was crucial for us as we were working on the book.
- [17:26]
Guy M.
So you are optimistic?
- [17:27]
Carol Markowitz
Yes, of course. Definitely now if I might say.
- [17:31]
Guy M.
Yes, it's a good time right now.
- [17:33]
Carol Markowitz
It's a good time right now.
- [17:34]
Guy M.
We're recording this shortly after the Iran operation and the ceasefire between Iran and Israel.
- [17:41]
Carol Markowitz
We managed as me sorry, not we as a unit, as we as a nation, as people on a multi front war. We're talking, I think last count was eight fronts, including anti Semitism, warring, roaring, Sorry for my accent. This is a multi front war and in our best scenarios, the most optimistic scenarios, we haven't, we never imagined what we managed to do in northern Israel, Hezbollah, we were training for years for the day we start a war with them. And we were training for the consequences to be huge. Thousands of Israelis will be killed.
- [18:22]
Guy M.
Right.
- [18:22]
Carol Markowitz
Gonna be embassies blowing up in what we did when we managed to do together with America and Iran. It's beyond the biggest, most optimistic scenarios. And here we are. So why won't the future be as well?
- [18:37]
Guy M.
I like that. Yeah. What do you worry about?
- [18:40]
Carol Markowitz
I worry that at some point I'm going to look back and I'm going to regret things they haven't done. It's not a good thing to be worried about because sometimes it drives you crazy. But in the good essence, it just makes you sometimes like you're jumping into a pool and it's, you know, it's going to be cold inside and then you're kind of procrastinating. You're just never mean dipping a toe. Yeah, maybe it's not a good day. So it helps you not to dip a toe but to just jump and just say what the heck, it's going to be freezing or what the heck.
- [19:09]
Guy M.
It's funny because you seem like you've done quite a lot. It doesn't seem like you've missed out on that much.
- [19:18]
Carol Markowitz
I hope, I hope not. Maybe that is the drive. So at the end of the day, I guess it helps accomplish more and less time because they're always afraid it's going to end soon. And this also I guess is maybe part of the burden that this, this the toll of being a rescue soldier or being with this responsibility from a young age, from 19 years old, it's maybe it's even an attitude. But I think that that is one of the things I kind of contemplate a lot. If I'm not going to do it, am I going to look back and regret not doing It So if yes, I just have to push myself.
- [19:51]
Guy M.
Well, speaking of looking back and maybe having any regrets, what would you tell your 16 year old self? What does 16 year old guy need.
- [19:59]
Carol Markowitz
To know would tell a guy 16 years old in Israel? I think it's not seniors even, right? It's like freshman. What is it? It's sophomore. So I would tell him, everybody's struggling. I remember myself as a teenager, I didn't have the confidence. I was showing off with a lot of confidence. But inside I was terrified of my own shade. And I felt like everybody around me that's full of confidence and they're like, you know, everybody's a peacock and I'm the only one that is an imposter. And I would go back and say, look at them, they're all phonies. They're all like, you're just too young to talk about it.
- [20:36]
Guy M.
Sixteen is pretty young to have imposter syndrome. I feel like that's something that develops when you get older and you think that, you know, you're the only one feeling like you can't do stuff and everybody else seems to be, you know, powering up ahead.
- [20:51]
Carol Markowitz
I think that what changes to the imposter syndrome that we have as we become grown ups? Once someone told me that the difference between a child or a teenager to a grown up is when you become cynical about things. So I think it's that typic tipping point is when you, you become an imposter of not who you think you are, but who others think you are. Because when you, when you're 16, you're kind of this, you're like a gush of paintings that don't have like any color and then you evolve into color.
- [21:26]
Guy M.
That's a good way to put it.
- [21:28]
Carol Markowitz
But you're not sure that your colors are bright. You're like, well, everybody thinks the colors are bright, but they're not. So I think that point of cynical to become 16, 17 and coming 18 and they're like, everything looks like a party. We need to kind of seize that moment and say everybody's struggling.
- [21:45]
Guy M.
We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz show.
- [21:50]
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- [25:19]
Guy M.
Well, I've enjoyed this conversation so much. I really think you're such an interesting person. I hope you write more books. I hope that we get to see more of your ideas and your writing, maybe outside of terrible events in our shared history. But leave us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
- [25:43]
Carol Markowitz
When I was in ninth grade, I joined my father. He had a karate club in the rural tiny community that we lived in. And he gave me this responsibility to be the main instructor. I was very young and there were four groups twice a week. And I hated, hated it. I was, I was like, I, I didn't hate the karate. Karate was great. I liked it and even paid me some pen, you know, a few pennies to make shot. But the responsibility, because I was terrified, what if no one shows up? You know, maybe they hate me, maybe they think I'm the bad, the worst instructor ever. And the responsibility from week to week, it was that I was struggling with it. I was even so sometimes I was afraid. And then at some point as talking about evolving, I kind of got used to this feeling that there's no one else. Like if I don't do good enough, no one could help me. Like no one's going to show up for the next lesson. And then it evolved those feelings into the army and becoming a rescue soldier. And it was like a synergy because that's the whole essence. You're the last call when everybody failed, like all the civilian ems, police, everybody tried. So if they tried and failed, they call you. And then if you fail, there's no one else to call. So I think at some point, when we all struggle with it, when we kind of, well, if this goes wrong, who am I going to blame? What am I going to call? But once you get used to that feeling and you kind of get not comfortable but less terrified of it, you can kind of find out that you're capable of so much more.
- [27:17]
Guy M.
I love that. Be The Last Line of Defense. It's really. That's a great piece of advice. The book is called the October 7th through the eyes of Israel's pararescue commandos. Get it on Amazon or anywhere you buy books. Thank you so much for coming on, guy.
- [27:31]
Carol Markowitz
Thank you, Carol. Ugh.
- [27:36]
Ryan Reynolds
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Carol Markowitz
This is an I heart podcast.