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Carol Markowitz
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iheartradio. My guest today is Mario Loyola, the senior fellow in law, Economics and Technology at the Heritage foundation and a professor at Florida International University. He's also a frequent contributor to National Review, Wall Street Journal, and many others. And a friend of mine. Hi, Mario. So nice to have you on.
Mario Loyola
Hi, Carol. Thanks for having me on.
Carol Markowitz
You know, I associate you so closely with Florida, but you're kind of a DC guy, no? Am I wrong about that?
Mario Loyola
Oh, my God. It's like the worst thing you could have said.
Carol Markowitz
Is that an insult? Did I just, like, hurt your feelings?
Mario Loyola
This is exactly the time of the year when I start to get District of Columbia affective disorder and really wish that I was on the beach where I belong.
Commercial Voice
Come home.
Carol Markowitz
What are we doing?
Mario Loyola
Yeah, well, you might be seeing me down there sooner than you think.
Carol Markowitz
Okay, good, good. So I've known you a long time. I think of you as a very international affairs guy. You're not Jewish, but you have what I would consider a special relationship with Jews and with Israel. Would that be a fair assessment?
Mario Loyola
Yeah, absolutely. That's, you know, it's been a long time in the making. I think maybe I'll write an article about this journey, I guess, one of these days. But this is a subject that, you know, was, when I started out, was almost entirely an academic of academic interest to me. I had never really. I was in college, I majored in European history at the University of Wisconsin and which is really a focus on Russian and German history. And so, of course, anybody, any fair minded person who studies a lot of Russian and German history is gonna feel, you know, is gonna come out of that experience feeling very protective of Jewish people. But, but this was really, really just one of many sort of strands of history that I always wanted to know more and more about, like military history, back to classical times. And so I was building up my library of Jewish history. And I actually remember picking up, I used to, when I was living in New York City, I remember picking up at the Strand this wonderful history of Israel by. I think it's Howard Zacher's history of Israel. And this was around the time that the Second Intifada had just started. And so everybody in New York City, of course, instantly had an opinion about this conflict. And I didn't know what my opinion was, but I knew that none of these other people who had very strong opinions about it had any idea what they were talking about. So I decided to start reading. And I spent the summer of 2001. I remember taking this history of Israel to Tompkins Square and sitting interesting time in Tompkins Square and then there. And I remember reading the September 9th of 2001. I was reading about the Lebanon War, and I was up to Sabra and Shatila, when all of a sudden, the book sucked me into its narrative.
Carol Markowitz
It's not a great time to be a friend to Jews right now. Like, if you tweet anything supportive of Israel or of the Jewish community, you get comments like, oh, you're being paid $7,000 for this twee. I keep waiting for that cash and it never hits my bank account. I think it's probably the same for you. The money just never arrives from Benjamin Netanyahu. Why do you do it?
Mario Loyola
Well, I've actually been promised honorary Israeli citizenship by the. No, I'm just.
Carol Markowitz
That's easier, actually. Actually, that you might get.
Mario Loyola
I have discovered that defending. Defending Jewish peoples, it involves a really astonishing amount of time arguing with Jewish people. But anyway, that's another.
Carol Markowitz
Sorry about that.
Commercial Voice
Yeah.
Mario Loyola
But no, that's another topic. But I will. This is something that, you know, one of my preoccupations in college was, was how did this. You know, this. The German people, the. The most literate society in the world, right? The first society to achieve 95% literacy. The people who, you know, the society that gave us Bach and Mozart and these wonderful philosophers and the greatest, Many, so many of the greatest scientists in history. How did these people fall for such a primitive and savage and sadistic cult? Nazism. And it just made me wonder, God, if it can happen to the Germans, maybe it can. Maybe it's something. Maybe it's the Leviathan in ourselves. Right? And. And. And, you know, but it still seemed, for most of my adult life, it seems so far away. Right. Because the one thing we could all agree on was that Nazism is bad. Right?
Carol Markowitz
It was an easy call. Right?
Mario Loyola
Yeah. Easy call. And now you. And now, you know, for those of. For the people who are wondering how it was that Nazism was able to seduce so many German university students and musicians.
Carol Markowitz
See it up close.
Mario Loyola
Chicken farmers. Now you're watching it all around you, right? And you see what it is is that these victim narratives are very toxic and they're very easy to manipulate. And you, you know, you get into it and you think, free Palestine, of course, well, why shouldn't we free Palestine? The Palestine Palestinians need to be free. And people don't realize that. If you actually study the history of this whole thing, all of these words have like made up definitions, right. The whole thing is like this propaganda psyop. And deconstructing that history is very, very important. Right. Because as you've pointed out, as I've pointed out a hundred years ago, the word Palestinian was most likely being used to describe a Jewish person. Right. Because a Palestinian is somebody who lives in Palestine. There's 50 nationalities in Palestine. I have an Encyclopedia Britannica which I also bought at the Strand from 1911 or something. There's a very long article on Palestine in there. But the word Palestinian does not appear once.
Carol Markowitz
Right, right. Did you always want to go into international affairs?
Mario Loyola
I did. I always wanted to go into international affairs from when I started reading, when I started reading history. I mean, it was. I had the conviction that, you know, that the reason why World War II happened was that there was something that gave a, a dictatorship more freedom of action. Right. I mean, Adolf Hitler could show up in the morning, say one thing to the industrialists and another thing to the labor unions in the afternoon. And that there was something about the response of the democracies as the Nazis rose to power and as Germany armed for war that was like very paralyzed, right. I mean, very sluggish. There were many points in time when it was like obvious what would happen if they didn't act to intervene. For example. Let's just take an example. To prevent the union of, of Austria and Germany, which left, you know, Czechoslovakia surrounded on three sides. It was obvious that if this union was allowed to proceed, that the German, Germany's ability to conquer Europe would become somewhat unstoppable.
Carol Markowitz
Right.
Mario Loyola
And yet, because they were like so, you know, enthralled by self determination and the Wilsons, 14 points and all of these like paper things, they and their pacifist publics, they allowed themselves to be lulled into this, you know, we call it appeasement in the West. But the French have a better term for it, which is atantisme, which is just not to appease but to wait, right? Just wait for this thing to go away. And they were just lulled into like waiting, waiting around while, you know, these, these devils armed for war. And it just filled me with the conviction that in international relations we needed to democracies to defend themselves, needed to have the capacity for much faster action.
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Carol Markowitz
You know, this is not a show about politics, but I find you so interesting and I want to hear what you have to say about this. I'm going to, I'm going to limit it to just, just a couple of questions, but it's not a hot time for the argument that democracies need to stand together. For example, even, you know, pro Israel people will say don't use the whole thing about we have common values, you know, it's irrelevant. And that there's this sense of like, because we had the nation building exercise with Iraq and we tried to bring democracy to these Arab lands, that it was a foolish thing that we did and therefore democracies have nothing in common and we shouldn't necessarily stand together. What do you say about that?
Mario Loyola
Well, this is, I've been to Israel many times and this is actually a topic of conversation that I have with Israelis. One thing I'll note is that, you know, part of what produces such a potentially explosive situation in the Middle east is almost like, you know, how a battery is like positive ions on one side of a membrane and then negative ions on another. You have this like the gradient formed by these opposite charges creates this enormous potential energy. And it's somewhat the same in the Middle east, right? Because you have this like very successful flourishing society in Israel and then these very moribund systems on the other side. And to some extent the potential for conflict is always going to be there as long as that, you know, that differential exists. Right. And so I think that it's. One point that I like to make is that as long as they're, as long as Israel is not surrounded by similarly flourishing societies, there's Going to be a problem there.
Carol Markowitz
Right.
Mario Loyola
And this is an important point to make to Israelis because I feel like Israelis are, you know, the, the furthest. The most conservative Israeli politician is like, in many ways to the left of the Democratic Party when it comes to a lot of economic regulation.
Carol Markowitz
Well, and other things too. I think that most people in Israel I would describe as just flat out anti war.
Mario Loyola
Yeah, anti war, but also like kind of socialist. Right.
Commercial Voice
Yeah.
Mario Loyola
And, and, and, and I think that they don't realize how much, how much markets and property rights and freedom of association and freedom of these basic democratic values that are traditional, well, at least pre progressive values from the founding of the United States. This is, this is really the answer for Israel and for all the region. Right. Is just to have flourishing societies in which people can find their own way and invent their own futures and people can really provide for their children.
Carol Markowitz
So what would have been Mario's Plan B if you didn't go into international affairs?
Mario Loyola
Well, actually, the Plan B that I, when I went to law school, I remember from my first week in law school thinking to myself, you better have a plan B, because this could really have been a serious mistake.
Carol Markowitz
Was it?
Mario Loyola
And I think.
Carol Markowitz
Was it? Was it a mistake?
Mario Loyola
I'm not ready to answer that question yet. Ask me in a decade. But I think this is probably. Most law students are likely to feel in the first week of law school like they may have made a mistake. Major mistake. I remember having a Plan B at the time, which was that I felt confident that with a, like a sonar device, I would have a competitive advantage over other fishermen in Sri Lanka and I would just like, move to Sri Lanka and become like a successful.
Carol Markowitz
Sure. That's my Plan B.
Mario Loyola
That was always, that was always my Plan B.
Carol Markowitz
You might still do that. Could that be something you do down the road, become the sonar fisherman of Sri Lanka?
Mario Loyola
It's possible. I've always wanted to. I've always wanted to get there. Haven't made it to the Indian side of the Indian Ocean yet, but I hope to soon.
Carol Markowitz
What are you most proud of in your life?
Mario Loyola
I mean, well, besides the obvious, having a family and my wonderful children and having very much married up. I would say that there is. I would say. What am I most proud of? Well, I think that I would say that my. One of the things I'm most proud of really, is my friendship with Jewish people and my relationship to Judaism. I've been. I've had the opportunity to study at tikvah institutes and these things. I'm Roman Catholic, of course, as I think you mentioned. And. But I really have come more and more. You know, I said at the Beginning, back around September 11, you know, the history of Judaism and of Jewish people was like a very academic, very interesting subject to me, but it was like a very academic subject. I didn't really have any personal relationship to it. And now over the years, have made so many great friends and, you know, have just. I just feel like, you know, like, Jewish people have really been a blessing to me and are a blessing.
Carol Markowitz
Not all of them, though. I know some of our mutual friends, you know, they can't all be blessings.
Mario Loyola
Well, but I think in general. Right. Like the Jewish people. Right.
Carol Markowitz
Just messing with you, Mari.
Mario Loyola
But. And I think, you know, I think so. And what have, what have we learned from them? What have I learned from them is to be really thoughtful, to really try to think about things from other people's point of view and to be, in many ways, like, I think, very idealistic. Right. You know, to get back to politics, if you think about the situation that we're having now with Israel, this is a lot of Israelis put a lot of hope and a lot of idealism into the Oslo peace process, right into the withdrawal from Gaza. They were time and again willing to forgive.
Commercial Voice
Yeah.
Mario Loyola
People don't know this history, Right. But this is, you know, time and again they've responded to these, like, unspeakable acts of cruelty back to the Haifa massacre 100 years ago. Right. And they've been somehow been able to just be forgiving and, and, and be willing to let bygones be. Be bygones. I don't know how.
Announcer/Commercial Voice
Same. I don't know how.
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
Mario Loyola
And, and, and in the end, you know, have really been. And what do they want to do? They just want to be left alone to, like, study music. Right. And study the law and study economics and study things and create things. And I think that that is another thing that's really, that's really worthy of emulation. Right. And if you think about, about the Talmudic commentary, I mean, I've never studied the Talmud, but I have seen the Talmud.
Carol Markowitz
I'm studying it right now. It is extremely boring.
Mario Loyola
And. Well, and. But what do we do when we are thinking about text? Right. When we're thinking about editing a text or writing a text, is really looking very carefully at a small piece of text and kind of thinking about how, you know, all of the implications and all the things that it could mean. And this is like the right way to study law. Right. And it's just. It's just. Just such a, you know, an inspiration to study. Right. I mean, this is like, one of the cultures in the world where, like, being a student gives you, like, the highest.
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
Mario Loyola
What is a rabbi? Rabbi is like, a student. Right. It gives you, like, the highest social status possible. It's not to be an athlete, but to be a student. Right. And I really. I really have. I feel like, have tried to live up to that.
Carol Markowitz
We're recording this a few days after the hostages came home in Israel and the ceasefire began. It's already a little tenuous. Hamas hasn't returned the bodies and there's been some skirmishes in Gaza. Are you hopeful about the future of Israel there? Are you hopeful about the whole region?
Mario Loyola
I am in some ways more hopeful about Israel than I am about a lot of democratic countries.
Carol Markowitz
I understand that. Yeah.
Mario Loyola
But I will say that I think that, you know, the world has gotten. It's just amazing to me and very unfortunate the extent to which, like, this mind virus of the plo. PLO propaganda, right. Has. Which people. I mean, it just. You can't. It's like their every word chagrins you after a while. If you really understand, right. Like, we're not talking about the occupied territories. The Palestinian Liberation Organization already existed before, of course, any of these territories were occupied, right. Occupation really just means that you have a Jewish neighbor, right? That's really what occupation means. And the whole thing is like this big, highfalutin, you know, Marxist version of Juden Rhine policy. I say this because one of the things that, like, Western governments have come to accept even, like, on a bipartisan basis in the United States, even among friends of Israel. Besides this, like, two state solutions stuff that has been, like, obviously a fantasy since at least 2005, is this idea that, like, occupation is, like, the worst possible thing, right? This word occupation that means so many different things in the real world. You know, at the end, I was saying to a friend the other day that you're. You're. You're. You know, the likelihood that a person supports Israel is, like, directly proportional to how well they understand what happened in World War II. Right? And one thing that I've been saying from the beginning, you can go back and see. I had an article in National Review, October, I think it was just days after October 7th in 2023, where I pointed out, you know, that when there was civil war, General Donelson asked Ulysses S. Grant for ceasefire and what were his terms? And Ulysses S. Grant said, unconditional surrender. Those are the only terms that can be accepted. Right. I'm not going to negotiate terms with you. And obviously In World War II, there was a pact at the very beginning, actually this was the pact that led to the founding of the United nations, was an agreement among all the Allies not to seek a separate peace with the Nazis and to keep fighting until. Until the unconditional surrender of the Axis powers.
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
Mario Loyola
And then this was really, really lit. A light really was illuminating for me. My first job in the government was at the Pentagon in what's called the Secretary's hallway, which is the hallway in the Pentagon. The Eisenhower hallway, it's called. Which is the hallway in the Pentagon that the, that the Secretary of Defense's office is on. It's called the Eisenhower hallway. And there are like little cases of different periods in Eisenhower's life.
Commercial Voice
Yeah.
Mario Loyola
And one of these cases is when, from when Eisenhower was supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force that crossed into Europe, into the continent of Europe on D Day. And there is this like, placard that is proclamation number one of Shaif Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force in English and German that was like posted all over, like light posts all over Germany. And the first thing that it said is, you know, we come as conquerors. We are all orders of the occupation authority will be obeyed immediately and without question. We are going to completely extirpate this entire society of Nazism. We're going to break and remake all the institutions, the courts, the schools, and just uproot this terrible ideology. And I think that until there is. And so I think that all of this is a big, long winded way of saying that, you know, it's what I have been worried about all along is that the only alternative to a continuation of Hamas. I've thought from the beginning that if Hamas is allowed to stand, is left standing at the end of this conflict, then the conflict must continue because there will never be coexistence with Hamas.
Carol Markowitz
Right.
Mario Loyola
And it can only end in unconditional surrender. And so the only alternative to Hamas rearming and Hamas executing people in the streets and Hamas terrorizing everyone again and arming to fight another day is a military occupation and a military government. Right. An extended period of military occupation.
Carol Markowitz
But the problem is there's no appetite for it even in Israel.
Mario Loyola
Right, right. I mean, people would rather. This is the thing that university students don't understand. You would rather occupy like, you know, Saturn, a moon of Saturn, than occupy Gaza. Right. Nobody in the world wants to occupy Gaza. Nobody wants it. Yeah. Not even the Palestinians want to Occupy Gaza. Right, right. And. Or at least govern a Gaza. Right. And so unfortunately, I think that we've got a situation where now we've. I don't know the question back to you, I mean, do you think that there's any hope for leadership and administration in Gaza that's not by Hamas?
Carol Markowitz
I'm not very optimistic about that. But I think that October 7th woke up the Israelis. So I don't worry as much about them. I think that, that Israel is. No, they're just not the country they were on October 6th. And they are this like super peace loving people. And you know, it bothers me because sometimes I'm like, snap out of it. Like, stop caring about your enemies so much. And I'm talking about right wingers over there. The right wingers are like, we can't just destroy the Palestinian people. And you know, the fact that they're so concerned with what happens to their enemies is. It has its pluses and minuses really.
Mario Loyola
Israeli, Israeli self. This is one of the things that I would love to be able to share with college students across America is that one of the great perpetuating factors of this conflict is Israeli self restraint. Right.
Carol Markowitz
And sometimes like so much. Yeah.
Mario Loyola
I mean, I don't know how they do it because I would not be as restrained. But let me just say one thing that does give me a lot of hope though is that, you know, now it's already been obvious for many years that within the Arab world, Hamas and the Palestinian terrorists. The Arab terrorists, I don't even like using the word Palestinian. The Arab terrorists of Palestine are isolated in the Arab world for a long time. Their main source of support has actually been a non Arab state of Iran.
Carol Markowitz
Yeah. And now it's like, yeah, I don't think they have them anymore.
Mario Loyola
Right. And so now we've, we're for at least for a while, like these other, you know, Hezbollah was so such a terrifying prospect. 150,000 missile. The Israelis just wiped them out in a matter of 10 days.
Carol Markowitz
Right, I know, yeah.
Mario Loyola
And so what you have now is emerging from the war. I think that the Palestinian, you know, the Arab resistance movement. Which means, by the way, for those of you who think that this is really a resistance, all this resistance really wants is just to get all the Jews out of Palestine.
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
Mario Loyola
I mean, Jews, whatever means necessary. So resistance and scare quotes. But this resistance has never been, maybe never been as isolated as it is right now. And that is a very hopeful sign.
Carol Markowitz
We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.
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Carol Markowitz
Give me a five year out prediction can be about anything. The world, music, anything you want.
Mario Loyola
I believe that and I think Israel is likely to be at the forefront of this. I think that the I'm very hopeful about artificial intelligence and the I don't.
Carol Markowitz
Get that a lot on this show. I got a Lot of doom. Yeah.
Mario Loyola
Yeah. No, I think the doomers are Luddites.
Carol Markowitz
Okay.
Mario Loyola
I think that the reason why I'm hopeful about it is that to use even Marxist terms, this is maybe the greatest democratization of the means of economic production that we've ever seen.
Commercial Voice
Right.
Carol Markowitz
Yeah. I become like a designer on there. I could make logos, you know.
Mario Loyola
Exactly. Right. So I was just gonna say that, you know, when the PC first arose, you remember this term, you might be too young to remember, but there used to be this thing called desktop publishing, which was like a fancy way to describe, you know, what you could do with Microsoft Word or whatever. We're now. We are now suddenly in an age of desktop filmmaking.
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, it's cool.
Mario Loyola
We're now in an age of where anybody with a computer is gonna spectacular works of art and science and engineering. And this is going to unleash competition that we've normally just associated with, like corporations and things that only corporations can invent. Like big corporations have the resources to invent and suddenly everybody, anyone can invent them. Right. And so that democratization, putting in the hands of every single, you know, man and woman and sometimes even child in.
Carol Markowitz
America, the children are all over it.
Mario Loyola
Yeah, right. Resources that we've normally associated with big corporations is. Is a. Is a really wonderful thing. And it's going to unleash a new sort of age of competition and invention that I think will be just as great a boon to human progress as electricity was.
Carol Markowitz
I love it. I love the optimism. That's really great. Well, I have loved this conversation. Mario, I think you are fantastic and I love getting to know more about you on this episode. Leave us here with your tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Mario Loyola
Read history books on your spare time and make as much spare time as you can.
Carol Markowitz
I love that he is Mario Loyola. Check him out at National Review, at Wall Street Journal and many, many places. He is just terrific. Follow him on X at marioliola. Thank you so much, Mario.
Mario Loyola
Thank you, Carol.
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Mario Loyola
Like the guy who weaponizes eye contact.
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This episode features a wide-ranging conversation between journalist Carol Markowitz and Mario Loyola, touching on Israel's place in the world, the power and challenges of democracy, lessons from Jewish history, the nature of propaganda around the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the optimistic potential of artificial intelligence. Loyola brings a blend of personal narrative, historical insight, and policy analysis, maintaining an intellectually engaged yet informal tone throughout.
Skepticism About Lasting Peace:
Reluctance Toward Occupation:
Israeli Self-Restraint:
On the Complexity of Solidarity:
On Social Media Misinformation:
On the Temptation of Utopian Narratives:
On the Modern Propaganda Battle:
On Lessons From the Jewish Tradition:
On the Path Forward After Conflict:
On AI’s Transformative Influence:
A thoughtful exploration of how history, ideology, and personal relationships shape our understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the responsibilities of democracies. Loyola’s optimism about technology and faith in historical wisdom offer an antidote to cynicism, emphasizing the value of rigorous study and perspective-taking in a turbulent world.