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The Karol Markowicz Show: Recycling Lies, COVID Fear & How to Stay Positive with John Tierney
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- [03:08]
Carol Markowitz
Hi and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz show on iheartradio. My guest today is John Tierney. John is a contributing editor to City Journal and a former columnist for the New York Times. He is the co author of Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength and the Power of How the Negativity Effect Rules Us and How We Can Rule It. Hi, John. So nice to have you here.
- [03:29]
John Tierney
Carol. Thanks very much for inviting me on. I'm a huge fan. Thank you.
- [03:32]
Carol Markowitz
I'm a huge fan. I was just going to say I am a huge, huge fan. And it's rare that I remember the very first thing I read by somebody, but I remember the first column I read by you. And maybe you can guess what it is. It was sort of a big deal. It was 30 years ago. I was in college and of course it was Recycling is Garbage. It was the first time, and you know, I was already a conservative, but it was the first time that I realized, wow, we could be told total nonsense by experts. So you really opened my eyes to that and led me, you know, to have that sensation throughout my life. What was the huge controversy about that piece?
- [04:13]
John Tierney
Well, it set a record for hate mail at the New York Times Magazine. It was a credit story, Recycling is Garbage, which I don't think they'd ever run today.
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Carol Markowitz
No, definitely not.
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John Tierney
Although they didn't, to their credit. That was like in 97 or something like that. 96. Yeah, 96. And then in 2017, they asked me to come back and revisit it for the, you know, the Sunday Review section. And, you know, and it was recycling looked even worse. But, you know, the idea was this garbage bag, this garbage bar is like in the early 90s, couldn't find a place to put the garbage because they just tightened up all these environmental rules and there weren't and there wasn't space in the existing land. They were closing landfill. And so this turned into the garbage crisis that we were running out of space and that we had to cycle and there was no short. There's so much room in this country to bury garbage. And it was ridiculous. And I always call it, it was a solution in search of a problem. And they've been doing it ever since. They keep. And then it became obvious that we're not running out of all these resources. There's no shortage of paper, you know, there's no shortage of trees. And it became obvious that there's plenty of landfill space. To put it way out in the country, the communities that get this garbage are happy because it's a ton of revenue for them. They have beautiful school. I visited a landfill in this rural county and they had this brand new school, much better than anything in New York, thanks to the revenue that we give them for taking our garbage. And you can't even find this landfill unless you know where it is. It's just, you know, off in the States.
- [05:45]
Carol Markowitz
Oh, interesting.
- [05:47]
John Tierney
So, you know, never since then, it's just, you know, and then it became, well, it's. Oh, it's for climate change, you know, that's their new one. And it really makes virtually no difference. A lot of this stuff, I think probably increases emissions. And of course now in New York we have this absurd thing this year we have to do composting.
- [06:05]
Carol Markowitz
I know.
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John Tierney
Which makes even less sense than everything else. It's so expensive. It's such a pain to do. And there's, it's just, I mean, the city is going broke and we're wasting money and wasting people's time. It's just incredible. But you know, what I really learned from it, I guess, is that it's a religion and you can't really change people's mind. Yeah.
- [06:26]
Carol Markowitz
Do you recycle?
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John Tierney
No. Well, I mean, I do it with paper partly because I don't want my building, the garbage police to do it. And it's fairly easy with paper. You just, you know, I mean, you put the newspapers in a stack and you put them in a bag, but otherwise, no, I do not do recycle.
- [06:43]
Carol Markowitz
Because I'm afraid of getting a ticket. I don't know if they would do that in Florida, but my mom got a ticket in Brooklyn and it like traumatized me. She didn't wrap her newspaper the right way or something a number of years ago and that's it. Ever since then I've been, I mean, it's unbelievable.
- [06:57]
John Tierney
We have people going around doing. And now they're supposed to be going around looking for like food grounds and it can imagine the job of doing that. Are you digging through garbage to do it? And there's so many things that have to be done on the city. It's just. I mean. But, you know, but what also happened, it's probably a religion with individuals. Why people? Oh, it's basically people, oh, we're wasting. I hate to waste things. But also it's now just become this recycling industrial complex. There are these activist groups, environmentalists that do it, and then there are these companies that are now, you know, because we spend so much more money to recycle. There's money to be made by people.
- [07:32]
Carol Markowitz
Absolutely. Did you always want to be the kind of writer that destroys the faith of college students in the experts?
- [07:40]
John Tierney
I guess I've always sort of been a contrarian. But I really think what happened to me was. I mean, in college I was a sort of conventional liberal. You know, I think I even went door to door from a govern. I think in my heart I was always really a libertarian, you know, but I didn't. But I remember as a freshman, I even went to a meeting of the Young Socialist Club, you know, or whatever it is.
- [08:01]
Carol Markowitz
Was it just. That's where the pretty girls were or.
- [08:04]
John Tierney
No. Or just. I mean, I had no money. Socialism sounded great.
- [08:07]
Carol Markowitz
Right, right. Okay.
- [08:09]
John Tierney
And. And then. But I was so put off by the people, you know, there, just, you know, the kind of activists that run that, that I never went back. And I also, as a freshman once, I went to Yale and William Sloane Coffin, the famous, you know, left wing a reverend, he led us down to protest the bombing in Cambodia. At the time, we all rode buses down and we visited congressmen and, you know, and I was, you know, anti war. You know, I had a draft number. I wasn't particularly eager to go, but just that experience of seeing the leaders on the bus talking, I just realized I don't like these people. You know, they're really out for power. You know, they're using this to do it. So that turned me off. And then what really happened to me, though, is as a journalist, I did want to go into journalism. And as I was reporting stories, I just kept finding that if you actually went out and looked, you saw that the facts bore no relation to the narrative. Right.
- [09:07]
Carol Markowitz
What might you have done instead had the writing thing not worked out?
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John Tierney
Well, I went to college as a math major. I liked it. And then I really. I took first and I took, you know, sort of an advanced class freshman year because I passed the AP for calculus.
- [09:22]
Carol Markowitz
So rare, like writers usually have no math skills. I mean, so many people that I've spoken to on this show say that they are bad at math. Just I think it usually goes hand in hand. That's interesting.
- [09:33]
John Tierney
No, but I got in this class and I just was with upperclassmen. And I realized, you know, with math, when you don't get it, you know, there's nothing like it. I think either you get it or you don't. And I realized I better find something else to do. And I met in my freshman year, William Zinser. Do you know the name who wrote the book on writing well, it sold millions of copies.
- [09:53]
Carol Markowitz
Yes, yes, I do know the book.
- [09:54]
John Tierney
Yes, he actually, I think grow. He was a writer for Life magazine who then wanted to teach nonfiction writing. At the time, this was like something nobody did. And he wrote letters like 100 colleges and nobody was interested, except Yale was one. There was one other little place somewhere. So he went there and taught this class on writing well, where you do these writing exercises. And then he turned that class into this book on writing well, which is a great book. And he came to like a coffee in my dorm. It was nice of him to do it. And I talked to him and the class was hard to get into. He kind of, for some reason, he said, I'll let you in my class next semester. And I remember walking home and walking back to my dorm from that class and thinking I could be a magazine writer. That seemed like the most glamorous thing in the world to me.
- [10:44]
Carol Markowitz
Right.
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John Tierney
And also, I don't have to do math. I managed to get summer jobs at newspapers. And it was really hard to get summer jobs when I was in college. But internships were one way to do it. And that's how I got started.
- [10:56]
Carol Markowitz
So where did you get your start? What was the first?
- [10:59]
John Tierney
I got a summer job at the Pittsburgh Press. I grew up in Pittsburgh after living in the Midwest and in South America for a little bit. And then I got a summer job at the Philadelphia Bulletin. And then I got a summer job at the Minneapolis Tribune, which would not give me a. And I was out. I graduated then and they did not want to give me a job because I made. They had an ombudsman who was obsessed with corrections. They kept a tally. And I made three or four little mistakes, but that was enough to doom me. So. And then I came back. I worked at the Bergen Record and then the Washington Star. And then I went into magazine writing in the 80s, science writing. So I always liked science. And so, you know, I did that for a while and then joined the Times finally.
- [11:42]
Carol Markowitz
So would you say that your beat like, I think at The Times your beat was maybe looking at science and other fields through a more realistic lens. Do you think that that's still your beat, or has that changed?
- [11:56]
John Tierney
Well, at the Times, I started out in the Metro section, and I actually, the first column I wrote there was called the Big City, that was about New York. So I did that, and then I did an op ed column, and then I did the science column for about six years or something. And so I've always liked science writing, but I've always liked writing about other stuff, too. And you asked about how. How I changed my ideas, and it really was like. It was like during magazine writing that I met these scientists and a lawyer who were libertarians. And, like, they gave me Hayek's book Road to Serfdom. And it was really like Esquire magazine sent me to do it. They would. They did a thing called man at His Best or no Men of the Year or something. Whatever it was, did men we like, you know, and they assigned me, and I got the lawyer. I think his name was Van Osteen, who brought the case to the Supreme Court that allowed lawyers to advertise. And so I met him, and he was like a libertarian, you know. And I met other people who were. I met Julian Simon, the economist, just through my work. And you'd meet them and you'd see stuff on what was actually happening and realize, you know, I mean, it was really kind of those people and the facts I saw that changed my mind.
- [13:09]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, I would say. It's funny, I very rarely hear the story that somebody came around to libertarianism because of the libertarians. It's actually quite the opposite. Usually it's like, I like libertarianism, but not libertarians. So it's interesting that you. You had the reverse effect happen to you.
- [13:28]
John Tierney
Well, I kind of met guys that I really respected, you know, people. And then. And once you start looking at the facts and you start reading, you go, yeah, that makes a lot of. And I realized my own liberalism was more, you know, keep the government out of my private life. It wasn't that I thought big government was great. You know, I mean, another thing, once that I got a summer job in Pittsburgh working for the Parks Department, and we had this fishing pond and we handed out fishing poles. And it was. It was during Nixon, had this neighborhood youth corps thing to employ minority kids in poor neighborhoods. And we had, like, 24 people. There was enough work for one or two people. We had, like, 24 kids doing stuff that we would just send home because they didn't there was really nothing for them to do. And then at one point my co worker, he started leaving early and he said, you know, why should we both stay here till 9 o'? Clock? So he would go home some nights and I would go home the other. It turned out when I was going home, he was also going home. And we got caught. And we're like, I'm quaking because I'd worked in a drugstore and I thought, oh my God, we're really in trouble now. And the, and the county supervisor comes out and says, if this ever happens again, you won't be paid for that time.
- [14:42]
Carol Markowitz
And I just thought you're like, what?
- [14:44]
John Tierney
Yeah, this is the government. And also the people I knew that. I mean, you know, kids in school who got jobs with the state, you know, transportation department, they all just bragged how nobody worked, you know.
- [14:54]
Carol Markowitz
Right. So what are we doing? Why? How come we don't have government jobs and not work? I feel like I'm doing this all wrong. Like I have to work. We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.
- [15:06]
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Carol Markowitz
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- [18:09]
Carol Markowitz
So what would you say? Like your your books, especially the Power of Bad. I found it. I loved it by the way. I read it a number of years ago. I thought it was so excellent. Do you I feel like your style is very like you think it's like this, but it's really like this. And I enjoy that a lot because I like having my opinions challenged. Do you feel like that's your style?
- [18:30]
John Tierney
Absolutely. You're exactly right. I did a science blog at the Times called Tierney Lab, and the two founding principles we had on the head on the main page was just because an idea appeals to a lot of people doesn't mean it's wrong. Number two but that's a good working hypothesis. And I love the fact that conventional wisdom was coined by John Kennedy and it doesn't mean what everybody the original meaning was not just what everybody Believes. But what is convenient for everybody to believe, you know, and so many things that just, you know, people want to believe it. So.
- [19:04]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah. What are you most proud of in your life?
- [19:08]
John Tierney
I guess it is the fact of kind of, you know, find, you know, standing up and saying, you know, this. This stuff is wrong. I mean, exactly what you said there, that. And. And doing things on my own. And, you know, it's hard. It was kind of hard to do some of that at the Times. The readership just hated me, you know, for doing that. But I. And I was really proud during COVID being at City Journal that that was one of the few places.
- [19:32]
Carol Markowitz
Absolutely.
- [19:32]
John Tierney
And I think we were like the fir. Almost the first that came out and said, lockdowns are insane.
- [19:36]
Carol Markowitz
Hey, hey, New York Post, you know.
- [19:38]
John Tierney
And you guys were good, too. Yeah, you guys were good. But we, you know, and I was, you know, I remember I was. Because at the time there was such panic. Nobody can say anything. You'll kill people. I think by then I knew the public health world. I mean, I wrote a piece back in 2000, I don't know, many years ago, on the corruption of public health, that it was so hopelessly politicized. So I really knew. Don't believe these people.
- [20:07]
Carol Markowitz
So has it been a challenge other than the hate mail at the Times? Like, have you been canceled? Have you had calls for your head?
- [20:16]
John Tierney
I'm trying to. You know, when I was at the Times, it was kind of pre.
- [20:19]
Carol Markowitz
Pre cancel culture.
- [20:20]
John Tierney
Yeah. But I mean, it was. I mean, I knew that most of the people there didn't like it. And I mean, you know, when I started writing the op ed column, I got a note from Al Hunt, who was the liberal columnist on the Wall Street Journal page. And he said, it's a great gig, you know, being the contrarian, you know, it keeps you honest. And that's one thing I really do. I mean, you just have to cover your flights when you're doing this. You know, you have to be so careful.
- [20:44]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah.
- [20:45]
John Tierney
But he said, it's a great gig. It keeps you honest. But don't read the mail.
- [20:49]
Carol Markowitz
So funny. So funny. Because I remember really disliking Al Hunt when I was, like, in college and being like, why does the Wall Street Journal publish this guy? And now I think it's good to publish a variety of opinions to make myself angry in the morning. Sort of the goal, you know.
- [21:05]
John Tierney
But I mean, when I, you know, when I wrote this with the Times, you know, I stopped looking at the comments. I did follow his advice but when I looked at them sometimes there were like, five people who would gather at the column every day and just talk about how much they hated me. And I always wondered, like, you don't have to read it, right?
- [21:24]
Carol Markowitz
Those are your biggest fans. That's what's so funny. Like, I, you know, the people who obsess negatively about my work, I love them because they're so into it. They read all of my stuff. They know everything I've ever said. It's like, that is fandom. Right? There you are my.
- [21:40]
John Tierney
That's great. Well, that's a tribute to you, you know. But do you read their comments?
- [21:44]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, I love it. I thrive on the negative comments. The more you hate me, as long as you're reading me, the more I enjoy it.
- [21:53]
John Tierney
Well, that's great. That's good. You know, I wrote a piece like a year or two ago that I may turn into a book with Roy Baumeister called the Misogyny Myth. And it's really has this idea that there isn't misogyny, actually. Both sexes are biased against man, really. And. And I was hoping. I assumed I'd be attacked by feminists, but I think the left's new thing is we just ignore it, you know?
- [22:17]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, that's worse. To me, that is so much worse. I'd rather they hate it and say so and write screeds against me. Ignoring the arguments is. That's really where they get into an echo chamber. And it leads us to an echo chamber because we don't feel like we're talking to them anymore. You know, just one of the things that my co hosts on my other show, normally, Mary Katharine Hamm, and I always say is that we know everything about the left. We know all of their opinions, we know everything they believe, and they know so little about us, it actually harms them.
- [22:48]
John Tierney
It sets a disparity because you can't watch tv, you can't watch a movie without getting a lecture on climate change.
- [22:53]
Carol Markowitz
Exactly. Yeah. You know, I can't go to synagogue without getting a lecture on climate change.
- [22:59]
John Tierney
It's. It's.
- [23:00]
Carol Markowitz
It's bad.
- [23:00]
John Tierney
Well, how do you, you know, how do you feel, you know, when you're writing, how much you have to. I mean, one thing, when I wrote for the Times, you just had to feel they. And I had to do this very gently. I know you think this, and this seems really reasonable, but just consider a couple things, you know, and I like More City, and maybe I should do what. But at Shitty Journal, our audience is more. You just you know, but I always felt I was pulling my punches, you know, whereas like someone like Paul Krugman could just rant and make, you know, as much as he wants. Yes.
- [23:33]
Carol Markowitz
You know, I remember that being your style. Like the very like, I know you think this, but it's actually this, you know. Yeah. You know, I don't had to do that even with the posts audience at the beginning of COVID because like you, I very early, very early saw that the lockdowns were a problem. I will Admit that in March 2020, I called for schools to close because my husband had stopped going to work. Everybody had stopped going to work, but the schools were still open. It just made no sense. I didn't realize that nothing would ever make sense for the next two years. But as soon as, you know, I saw that it wasn't going to be two weeks, I started calling for things to open. And of course that meant I wanted people to die. Even among conservatives and libertarians, I think people were not quite ready to hear that in April of 2020. Had to do a little bit of like, I take Covid seriously but you know, give us your five year out prediction. Could be about the country, the world, music, art, anything.
- [24:38]
John Tierney
Well, I'm a real optimist. I mean one of the themes that I've written about is that if you look at long term trends, everything's getting better now. You can argue right now that polarization politics seems particularly ugly. I think what's going on in politics now is that the old elite is losing its grip, you know, on institutions and they're just flashing out, they're being violent, they're just, they want to cancel everyone. So. But I think that, you know, that they're, I don't think they can stop it. So I think in that sense it's wonderful that there are so many more voices now and so much more freedom. And I think it's going to be hard. I mean there are a lot of movements in Trump. I don't like some of the stuff he does as far as expanding government power. But I think in general it's very hard to stop this because there are places all over the world. It's very hard to acquire that. So I think things will continue to get better. I mean, I worry about the deficit. I mean, I think that's a problem. But in general, I think technology and I'm very optimistic about AI Well, I think things are, you know, life will continue to get better, people will get richer, better educated and so I'm optimistic. I just Think things will get better. And I think maybe the polarization, I don't know. I think as they lose their grip, they might actually have to get a little more sensible. I mean, the Democrats can't go on with this craziness now.
- [26:01]
Carol Markowitz
They can't. And I hope Republicans don't follow them completely down the crazy path, which, you know, some Republicans definitely seem like they might want to. Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's getting better all the time. All signs are pointing up. I think it's an extremely optimistic moment. You know, I. I'm with you, definitely. Well, I've loved this conversation, John. You are really one of my all time favorites. Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives.
- [26:32]
John Tierney
I guess I would. I mean, in the book the Power of the Bad and we talk about the rule of four, the bad has so much more impact on you in every way and that it takes four good things to overcome a bad thing. And I think the main thing is, you know, and there's a thing called positive illusions. And basically just focusing on the positive will make your life so much better. Curating social media so you're not just, you know, just reading this negative stuff. You know, be careful what you watch on mainstream media and just remember that, you know, there's so much more, more good, so many more good things happening in the world than bad. And yet our brain is wired to just focus on the bad. And everybody always thinks the world's going to hell and there's like people who don't want to have kids today. When has it ever been a better time, right?
- [27:18]
Carol Markowitz
No, there's no better time.
- [27:20]
John Tierney
I mean, they used to. Half of them used to die by the age too. I mean, so I just remember that things are getting better, you know, and don't project your own unhappiness onto the world.
- [27:30]
Carol Markowitz
Yeah, be an optimist and read the Power of Bad. It really did help me control negative thinking. I enjoyed that book a lot. He is John Tierney. Read him at City Journal. Check out his two books, Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength and the Power of Bad. How the Negativity Effect Rules Us and How We Can Rule it. Thank you so much, John.
- [27:49]
John Tierney
Thank you, Karl. I had a great time.
- [27:54]
Kraken Advertiser
Kraken is built to make crypto simple. Buy Bitcoin, ethereum and over 450 other assets in seconds. Fast account funding, fast withdrawals and recurring buys. If you want to stay on schedule, simple, secure and trusted for over 14 years, download Kraken on the App Store or Google Play. That's K R a K E N not investment advice.
- [28:16]
Kraken Legal/Anabe Advertiser
Crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to U.S. customers, excluding New York and Maine through PayWord Interactive, Inc. View legal disclosures@kraken.com legal disclosures, terms and conditions apply.
- [28:24]
FedEx/Wasabi Advertiser
This podcast is brought to you by FedEx the new power Move hey, you know those people in your office who are always pulling old school corporate power moves? Like the guy who weaponizes eye contact. He's confident, he's engaged. He's often creepy. It's an old school power move, but this alpha dog laser gaze won't keep your supply chain moving across borders. The real power move? Having a smart platform that keeps up with the changing trade landscape. That's why smart businesses partner with FedEx and use the power of digital intelligence to navigate around supply chain issues before they happen. Set your sights on something that will actually improve your business. FedEx the new power Move Stop before.
- [29:12]
Early Bird Advertiser
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- [29:43]
Podcast Host/Announcer
The season's most wanted holiday steals. Whether you're gifting someone on your list or treating yourself to a designer score, find deals on McQueen, Valentino, Versace, Stuart Weitzman and more at up to 70% off every day. Outshine at every event and outsmart your budget. From shimmer ready party looks to luxe layers and cozy giftable accessories, Saks Off 5th is your secret source for celebrating in style. Your holiday shopping mission starts now@saksofffift.com or a Saks off 5th store near you.
- [30:15]
FedEx/Wasabi Advertiser
Wasabi is purpose built to free your business from skyrocketing storage costs and fees from the big guys. Wasabi is the go to provider for professional and collegiate sports teams around the world. Check out Wasabi's AI enabled intelligent media storage, Wasabi Air, and the industry's only cloud storage service with triple protection against cyber criminals. Wasabi driving innovation in data storage for up to 80% less than market competition. Try for free@wasabi.com Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage proud partner of iHeart Podcast Network.
- [30:45]
Podcast Host/Announcer
This is an iHeart podcast.