The Truth with Lisa Boothe: Are Trump's Tariffs Helping or Hurting American Workers with EJ Antoni

Summary

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show - Episode Summary

Episode Title: The Truth with Lisa Boothe: Are Trump's Tariffs Helping or Hurting American Workers with E.J. Antonio
Release Date: April 8, 2025
Host: Premier Networks
Guests: E.J. Antonio, Economist with the Heritage Foundation

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Introduction

In this episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, host Lisa Boothe delves into the complexities surrounding former President Donald Trump's tariff strategy. Joined by E.J. Antonio, an economist from the Heritage Foundation, the discussion aims to unpack whether Trump's approach to tariffs is beneficial or detrimental to American workers and the broader economy.

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Trump's Tariff Strategy: Goals and Implementation

Objectives of the Tariff Policy

Lisa Boothe initiates the conversation by outlining the primary goals of Trump's tariff strategy:

• Revitalizing American Manufacturing: Aimed at bringing manufacturing jobs back to the United States.
• Promoting Fair Trade Practices: Targeting reciprocal tariffs to ensure American exporters have equal access to foreign markets.
• Addressing Unfair Trade Practices: Responding to what the administration perceives as unfair barriers imposed by other countries, such as quotas and currency manipulations.

E.J. Antonio's Insights

E.J. Antonio provides a comprehensive breakdown of the strategy, emphasizing the concept of reciprocal tariffs. He explains, “Reciprocal tariffs are essentially an economic golden rule where you hold up a mirror to other countries and say, look, you have all of these tariffs and non-tariff barriers that are making it difficult for our exporters and American workers to sell stuff in your country” ([04:42]).

Antonio also highlights the challenges in implementing such a strategy, particularly the difficulty in quantifying non-tariff barriers like quotas. “When you put a quota in place and say you're only allowed to import this amount of dairy into our country, how much dairy would we import if that were not in place? That's difficult to figure out” ([04:42]).

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Impact on American Workers and Consumers

Economic Consequences

The tariff strategy has had mixed repercussions for American workers and consumers. Antonio points out that while reciprocal tariffs aim to protect domestic industries, they are not the primary solution to the decline of the Rust Belt. “The main reason why we have a Rust Belt today is because of overtaxing and overregulation. That's been the real killer of American manufacturing” ([04:42]).

Effect on Consumers

Antonio further explains the impact on consumers, noting that tariffs can lead to higher prices for goods. However, he acknowledges the complexity in predicting these outcomes due to varied factors influencing the economy.

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Market Reactions and Volatility

Confusion and Mixed Messages

A significant topic of discussion is the chaotic response from financial markets due to inconsistent messaging from the administration. Antonio remarks, “Financial markets are seeing such insane volatility... because the goalposts keep moving” ([11:24]). This volatility stems from unclear objectives and contradictory statements from key administration figures like Peter Navarro and Elon Musk.

Incorrect Tariff Calculations

Antonio criticizes the administration's handling of tariff calculations, stating, “They basically just looked at the trade deficit and they didn't even include services, they only included products. And so they gave us these phony baloney numbers” ([09:33]). This miscalculation has eroded trust and heightened market instability.

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Policy Recommendations: Deregulation and Domestic Reforms

Deregulation and Tax Cuts

Antonio advocates for a multi-faceted approach to genuinely bolster American manufacturing and support the middle class. Key recommendations include:

• Massive Deregulation: Reducing the regulatory burdens that double the cost of employing manufacturing workers. “The average regulatory burden that the manufacturer faces is like another $50,000 or $60,000 a year” ([35:03]).
• Tax Cuts and Spending Reductions: Implementing significant tax cuts coupled with drastic reductions in government spending to stimulate economic growth.

Enhancing Energy Production

Another critical area is energy production. Antonio emphasizes the need to increase domestic energy generation, particularly from coal, oil, and natural gas, to lower production costs across the economy. “If you reduce its cost, you reduce costs literally everywhere” ([35:03]).

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Challenges and Confusion in Policy Messaging

Lack of Clear Objectives

A recurring issue highlighted in the discussion is the absence of clear and consistent policy objectives from the administration. This lack of clarity makes it difficult for both domestic and international stakeholders to predict and respond effectively. Antonio notes, “Without substantive goals, it’s going to be really, really difficult to move forward” ([43:46]).

Multiple Stakeholders with Conflicting Agendas

The presence of multiple influential figures like Peter Navarro and Elon Musk, each with their own interpretations of the tariff strategy, contributes to the overall confusion and hinders the establishment of a coherent policy direction.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with a sobering assessment of the current economic landscape influenced by Trump's tariff policies. Antonio underscores that without complementary domestic reforms—such as deregulation, tax cuts, and increased energy production—the tariffs alone are insufficient to revive manufacturing or strengthen the middle class. He warns of potential recessionary pressures and heightened fiscal deficits if these broader policy measures are not enacted.

Antonio asserts, “We need to give [American businesses] a level playing field in terms of taxes and regulation here at home” ([35:03]). The discussion wraps up with a call for comprehensive policy reforms to ensure that tariffs contribute meaningfully to economic revitalization rather than exacerbating existing challenges.

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Notable Quotes

• E.J. Antonio: “Reciprocal tariffs are essentially an economic golden rule where you hold up a mirror to other countries...” ([04:42])
• E.J. Antonio: “Financial markets are seeing such insane volatility... because the goalposts keep moving” ([11:24])
• E.J. Antonio: “The average regulatory burden that the manufacturer faces is like another $50,000 or $60,000 a year” ([35:03])
• E.J. Antonio: “We need to give [American businesses] a level playing field in terms of taxes and regulation here at home” ([35:03])

---

This detailed exploration by Lisa Boothe and E.J. Antonio provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of the multifaceted impact of Trump's tariff strategies, highlighting both the intended benefits and unintended economic challenges.

Transcript

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[Lisa]

O.Com all right, so for today, we're going to dig in to President Trump's tariff strategy. We'll explore what's driving these policies, how the markets are reacting and what they mean for American workers and consumers. We're going to talk about the potential for price hikes. What do we need to know about that? Also some of these mixed messages, some of these mixed signals. Think about, you know, Peter Davaros for divorce, Elon Musk. And I want to pack what President Trump's goals are. What does he want at the end of all this? What's the objective here? So to do all this today, we're going to talk to EJ And Tony. We've had him on the show a bunch. Really smart guy. We've talked about tariffs with him before as well. So I just want to have a nuanced, broad, unbiased conversation. If I'm being perfectly honest, I don't know what the right strategy is here. I understand President Trump's long term objectives with wanting to try to bring manufacturing back home here. You know, these reciprocal tariffs, if not wanting to feel like we're being taken advantage of by other countries wanting more fair trade practices, all of that makes sense to me. Is this the way to do it, though? I. I don't know. So we're going to lean on policy experts like E.J. and Tony to walk us through this and to try to, to dig in and to figure out what's going on, what matters, and where is this all heading. So stay tuned for EJ and Tony. All right, ej, I was just telling you, I don't know what the hell is going on. And a lot of really smart people I tend to look to and towards for economic advice are all over the place and are all saying different things. So it seems right now that we've just got a lot of chaos and everyone's trying to figure out what's going on and where this thing is heading. So let's just kind of start. I just want to have sort of a broader balance, just kind of try to figure out what's going on and where this thing is heading. To the best of our abilities, I guess, so far. What do you make of President Trump's tariff strategy so far? Let's kind of just start from there. Big picture.

[E.J. Antonio]

Sure. Well, Lisa, I mean, the reason why it feels so chaotic is because it is. Right? You know, what did the president promise us? He promised us reciprocal tariffs. So I guess let's get our definitions down. What does that even mean? Essentially, it's a kind of economic golden rule where you hold up a mirror to other countries and you say, look, you have all of these tariffs and also non tariff barriers in place that are making it difficult or impossible for our exporters and for our American workers to sell stuff in your country. And that hurts our workers and that's not good. So much of what we've seen for decades now around the world that has been labeled as free trade is really just a kind of unilateral free trade where other nations have access to the American consumer market, which is great for our consumers. Don't get me wrong, that is great because it means that we can buy cheaper stuff and we have more money left over to buy more things. So that's good. But the problem is those other nations, Lisa, haven't given us the same courtesy where our producers have access to their consumer markets. And so that has locked out a lot of American companies where they can't compete overseas. And it's forced plenty of them out of business. It's helped create what we call the rust belt. And it's helped not only reduce employment here at home, but also reduce real wage growth. All of those are very real effects and you can't dismiss them. At the same time, they're not the primary cause. The main reason why we have a rust belt today is because of overtaxing and overregulation. That's been the real killer of American manufacturing. So it's not as if trade is the number one problem facing the American worker. And it's not as if these unfair trade practices are the number one reason why we have, you know, essentially why we have the rust belt. The number one cause again, has to do with mistakes our government has made here at home, not necessarily mistakes that other governments have made abroad. Now again, that's not to dismiss the issues with unfair trade practices. You know, Canada makes it so difficult for our dairy farmers and our factory workers to get things like cheese or automotive parts into Canadian markets, that it's actually easier for many of our exporters, Lisa, if you can believe this, it's easier for them to sell their stuff in Russia than it is in Canada today. I mean, that's obscene. We're told that Canada is a friend, an ally, they're our friendly neighbor to the north, except they have severe penalties in place. And so what happened was the President said, look, we're gonna have reciprocal tariffs and we're gonna use that as a negotiating tool to force other countries to get rid of their tariff and non tariff barriers. Whether that's quotas or currency manipulation, or in the case of China, that would also include things like utilization of slave labor or subsidization of industry, where they can then dump artificially cheap products in foreign markets and force those foreign companies out of business, whatever the case may be. So we're going to say, all right, Canada, you either drop your tariff and non tariff barriers or we're going to put these huge tariffs to match on your producers, on your exporters. They're trying to get stuff here to the United States. And the whole reason why this tariff announcement was delayed until April 2nd was because we were told the Commerce Department needs time to figure out the math here. Right. And they need time to calculate, all right, what is the equivalent tariff to all of the tariff and non tariff barriers other countries put in place? Because that's something that's. Honestly, honestly, Lisa, very, very difficult to calculate for a couple of reasons. You know, when you put a quota in place and you say you're only allowed to import this amount of dairy into our country, well, how much dairy would we import if that were not in place? That's difficult to figure out. Also difficult is all the survivorship bias. In other words, if a country were to impose, let's say, a 10,000% tariff and therefore absolutely none of a certain product could be sold by American manufacturers in another country. If you do the math and you say, all right, how much are American manufacturers paying in that tariff? Well, none. Right. Because none of their product is subject to it because they can't sell any. So you have certain things that you need to account for. Again, it's very complicated and it made sense that it would take them so long to calculate it, I guess, you.

[Lisa]

Know, and the math's been called into question, which, you know, I don't know if that's fair or not. It probably isn't given the fact that, you know, we've got a media that isn't honest and a lot of the experts over the years have proven to not be experts. And so, you know, I think that's part of why we're sort of in this, you know, era of confusion because, you know, very few people have been honest over the years. And, you know, admittedly, you know, Trump's been right more than the experts have been. So, you know, you want to give deference there with that.

[E.J. Antonio]

But that's, that's a big, that's a big part of the problem, Lisa, has been the math that, you know, the, the whole reason, again, why we had to wait till April 2 was supposedly to get the math in order. And then they show us the math and it turns out they basically made up the numbers. When they first announced this 10% baseline tariff, the futures markets for stocks initially rallied about 1.5%. And then they show these charts with all these crazy tariff rates that have no semblance of any relationship to reality. And that's when futures tumbled and the markets have been down ever since then. The problem is they didn't even actually look at tariff and non tariff barriers like they told us they were going to. We were promised reciprocal tariffs and that's not what they delivered. The Trump administration, I'm not saying this is the President's fault. It was someone under him obviously who did this report. But whoever it was who compiled this gave us a bunch of phony numbers. They literally just looked at the trade deficit and they didn't even include services, they only included products. And so they gave us these phony baloney numbers again, that have nothing to do with the country's tariff and non tariff barriers. So this isn't even an argument of are you for reciprocal trade or not? Are you for free trade or not? This is an argument of are you for basic math or not.

[Lisa]

You know, I guess the way my mind works is I'm okay with like a little bit of, of chaos if I know there's a strategy, if there's sort of like a plan, if there's an outline, if it's, you know, like that's why, you know, I've been sort of against with what's going on in Ukraine and giving them all this money because there's no what's the long term plan? Like can they win? What's, you know, like I don't like just questions. Yeah, yeah. And so right now with this, it's sort of like what is, is the objective of the White House? Do we know that? What's the end goal here?

[E.J. Antonio]

So, Lisa, what you just put your finger on is exactly the reason why financial markets are seeing such insane volatility. Why stocks are going up and down, why yields are going up and down, even gold, things that would typically be considered safe haven assets. Everything is just in absolute turmoil right now because the goalposts keep moving. And you have, folks, whether it's the Commerce Secretary or you have Peter Navarro or other people, they come out and they say one thing and then later they say something else and they contradict themselves or they contradict each other. And so we can't get a sense of what exactly are they after. Do they really want free and fair trade or do they want to get rid of the trade deficit and Another thing, Lisa, you can't say simultaneously certain things like tariffs are going to bring in all of this revenue, but we're also also not going to see any additional cost to the American consumer. And we're also gonna see this huge incentive to build stuff here. Well, why? I mean, if these costs aren't really gonna be borne by anybody, then what's the incentive to move production here? Right. If American consumers have a choice of alternatives, then the only reason they would choose the American alternative is if the foreign alternative gets more expensive. So there's just. There's too many things that are too many messaging points, too many points that are contradicting each other from the administration. And so people can't get a sense of what the end goal is, because if we at least had that, we would know where Trump was going eventually. But again, there's just so much chaos right now, and there's so much moving of the goalposts. We're having a hard time figuring it all out. Yeah.

[Lisa]

And you've got people like Peter Navarro and Elon Musk at each other's throats as well, putting out different messages. Yeah, I mean, I understand the concept of wanting to bring manufacturing home, and I understand that this was a pivotal part of America first. And, like, we even saw it during COVID with China threatening, you know, to withhold pharmaceuticals from the United States. And, like, we don't want to be leaning on enemy nations like China for antibiotics and things like that. So, I mean, I understand the benefit and the need to have a strong manufacturing base here in the United States does this. You know, and then I can see how, like, NAFTA pushed manufacturers over to Mexico because labor was much cheaper for them. Or I could see how China's entry in the World Trade Organization moved a lot of cheap goods into the United States. Does this get us to a point where manufacturing is beefed up in the United States?

[E.J. Antonio]

That's a very, very good question. And it's going to depend on whether or not the administration and also Congress can get a lot of other things across the finish line. I think part of the reason why we're seeing so much pain in markets right now is also the fact that we've done things a little bit out of order, in my opinion. Lisa, what would have been, I think, better is if we got the tax cut across the finish line, if we saw much more deregulation, if we saw much more of a push to increase energy production, and maybe most importantly, huge cuts in spending. You know, right now, the Doge Boys have done a great job with highlighting a lot of abuse and corruption and fraud and waste. And we've made some cuts, but we need massive cuts. So basically, what the Trump administration has done here, and again, it's not all their fault because Congress has been seriously delayed in, you know, in getting the tax cut, you know, in getting that bill through. But whatever the case, we have basically taken a middle class that was already drowning and thrown them an anchor before we actually built them a BO and now the result is that we're all on pins and needles to wait and see can they get their act together, both the administration and Congress, to get all these other things across the finish line. Because it's not as if tariffs are some kind of silver bullet. It's not as if tariffs alone are gonna bring back manufacturing. It's not as if tariffs are gonna rebuild. You know, Youngstown and Gary and Detroit. We need a lot of other pieces to fall into place for tariffs to actually be effective. Otherwise, if all we get are the tariffs, then it basically is just going to be a tax increase, and there's not going to be many positive effects that come from it. Again, how we started the conversation, Lisa was describing that what has really created the Rust Belt has not just been bad trade policies. Has that contributed? Yes. Is that the primary cause? No. The primary cause is all the excess taxation, regulation, and spending by our own government. So that has to change. Change.

[Lisa]

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[Lisa]

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[E.J. Antonio]

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[Lisa]

Race, Miami, April 12th. You look at some of the promises made on the campaign trail and he did promise to bring manufacturing back. And so I think it's noble that he is following through honest promises like, you know, few politicians do these days. But he also promised to drive down cost. And so, you know, I do worry about what impact this has on inflation and has on, you know, the cost of goods if that's passed down to consumers through these, you know, companies, you know, feeling the brunt of it. And then also, you know, I agree with wanting to help the American worker, but like, if the economy crashes, you know, no one's helped from it. So I mean, you know, what do you think the ultimate impact of this all will be on the American taxpayer.

[E.J. Antonio]

Great, great question, Lisa. You know, and this goes to. This goes to, I think some of the people who are, you know, who are very pro Trump. Right. And support his agenda. And I do, too. I just think that we need some tweaks to the methodology here. But you have a lot of folks who are cheering on the collapse in oil prices right now without thinking, hey, why are prices collapsing? It's not because regulation is down. And so it's cheaper for these folks to produce and bring their product to market so they can bring more of it to market. And that increase in production and competition is driving down prices, and that'll eventually drive down prices at the gas pump. That's all great, but that's not what's happening right now. Everyone is panicking that we're going to have a severe recession. And so they're anticipating much less oil being sold and much less oil being produced, not more. And so you're seeing some of these big swings in markets right now. And again, it's not a sign necessarily of good things, it's a sign of bad things. This is where we need to be careful of assessing not just what is happening, but figuring out why are things happening. And it speaks to the fact that you can't just be an ideologue here and say tariffs are always and everywhere good or tariffs are always and everywhere bad. We need a much more intellectually rigorous analysis in order to answer questions like the one you just asked. What does this mean for the American taxpayer if all we get are these massive tariffs and a trade war without getting all of the other things that I mentioned, the pro growth policies, the supply side policies, if those things aren't put in place, then it means a recession. It means blowing out the deficit even more. It's already 2 trillion doll a year. It'll get worse because tax revenues, tax receipts to the treasury are gonna go down, but expenses are gonna go up because in a recession, the tax base shrinks. And so you get less tax revenue. At the same time, more people become dependent on social services as they lose their job, for example. And that's particularly true right now, Lisa, because of the very terrible economy, frankly, that was left to Trump by the Biden administration, where you have a record amount of consumer deb. You've already seen delinquencies, for example, start to go up on mortgage payments. That traditionally is something that only happens as people start to lose their jobs, as unemployment goes up. But what we've seen under Biden was even though unemployment stayed low, people still weren't able to afford their mortgage payments because they were spending all their money on groceries or their transportation costs or insurance, whatever the case may be. So the economy was already in a fragile position. And again, if you don't get those supply side policies that those pro growth policies in place, it's going to mean a lot of pain for the American taxpayer. And you have to wonder, is the Federal Reserve going to come to the rescue again in the form of buying government debt and printing money, which is going to set us off on the inflation roller coaster all over again, which again, that's another sign of pain for the American taxpayer.

[Lisa]

And you know what, Guy? I'm trying to enter this conversation with humility because this is not my beat. I'm not an expert in this. And also there are questions about, like, are the markets overreacting to this? Is the media overreacting to this? I mean, because we've seen, we saw big dips under the Biden administration as well. You know, we saw declines in, you know, I think it was the s and P500 dropped to 30 or 3,666 by October 12, 2022, we saw a decline about 23.6%. So I mean, we've seen dips under the Biden administration as well. So it's like, like, how is this different than that? And like, why, you know, are we over, you know, are we unnecessarily overreacting right now or the market's over, you know, unnecessarily overreacting right now? I guess, you know, I'm also trying to figure that out.

[E.J. Antonio]

Lisa, those are great, great questions. And a lot of, a lot of what you have to remember. Well, let me put it this way. I think the most important piece of context is the fact that when we look at things like stock markets, we're trying to predict the future and nobody's got a crystal ball. So, so you're always, even if you have clear signs out of Washington, you're always going to have some degree of volatility. You're always going to have markets going up and down. And sometimes you will get big moves because nobody knows the future. And what ultimately justifies stock prices are the future earnings of companies. And so once those future earnings finally roll around, then we decide whether or not those stock prices were justified. But at that point, it doesn't matter because now you're looking at the new future earnings that are going to be coming down the pike. So again, you're dealing with the future, so you're automatically dealing with a certain level of uncertainty. The question of whether or not markets are overreacting has to do with whether or not you believe that a lot of things are already priced in. In other words, what is the probability of recession today? Have the markets sufficiently priced that in? And if you believe that they have not priced in sufficiently a high probability of recession, then you sell. And if you think they're pricing in too much of a probability, then you buy. And that may sound like an oversimplification, but that's fundamentally what's going on here. And the market is made up of literally billions of participants from around the world who are all trying to figure this out together. And so the prices that we're seeing, you could say, are the collective wisdom or lack of wisdom of all of those market participants. Unfortunately, I think at this point there is probably, probably still more room to the downside. That's not financial advice, that's just simply my opinion. I think there is a ton of volatility that still needs to be sorted out. We are still looking for direction in terms of not just what the administration in Washington is gonna do, but how foreign governments are gonna respond. As soon as you're talking about reciprocity, you're immediately talking about an added degree of, of volatility. Because it's not just a matter of what is Trump going to do, it's a matter of what is the president of Mexico going to do, what is the president in China going to do, what is the governor in Canada going to do, what is Vladimir Putin and Russia going to do, et cetera.

[Lisa]

Well, you know, I mean, I look at polling sort of, or I mean, I look at the stock markets a little bit like polling, you know, which is, that's more my background of politics and polling, where it's sort of like a snapshot in time, as you pointed out, sort of like predictive of trying to predict where we're going with things. You know, I've heard a lot of people say, you know, look, Americans just kind of need to take this on the chin, you know, long term gain for short term pain. And then I, I, I understand that to a degree, but I, I don't think we should discredit the fact that, you know, look, there are a lot of elderly people who have a lot of money tied up in the markets right now, and they might not be super wealthy and you know, they're worried about their retirements and, or they want to retire and they might not be able to. And so, you know, I, you know, I guess in all of this and, you know, in every different direction, and I appreciate the balance that you're bringing to this conversation, but I kind of wish that that's where the conversation would remain. Everywhere is just trying to, you know, sort of have a broader, more balanced viewpoint on all of this because there are people suffering. And I don't think that should be dismissed.

[E.J. Antonio]

Exactly, Lisa, that's a great, great point. Just as we should not dismiss, you know, the plight of the folks in the Rust Belt who have lost their jobs over the course of several decade now, we also should not dismiss the plight of people who have money in the market, like in retirement. I personally know probably half a dozen people now who were planning on retiring in the very near future, one of whom was literally planning on retiring this year and now can't because of how much they've lost in financial markets. And we can debate the wisdom of whether or not they should have had money in equities so close to retirement. But, you know, frankly, Fixed Income took such a toweling under Biden that a lot of folks were forced to get out of that and get forced back into equities. So we don't want to be dismissive of anyone's financial pain again, doesn't matter if it's because they lost their job or it's because they lost their shirt in the marketplace. And it's really disturbing, Lisa, when I hear people on our side, allegedly on our side, who are cheering on the market declines and are saying things like, it's about time Wall street took one on the chin or felt some pain. I don't want anybody to feel pain. This whole idea of class warfare, that's a Marxist talking point. We don't need Wall street to go down in order for Main street to go up. The only one that needs to go down is K Street. It's the lobbyists in D.C. who are frankly hurting a lot of Wall street and all of Main Street. Those are the folks that I want to see not do well. Because it's only by taking from Main street, by taking from Wall street, that Washington does well, that K Street does well, the lobbying. So look, at the end of the day, if Main street is doing well, Wall street will too. There's no reason why they have to be opposed. What we saw under Biden, though, was a huge wave of inflation that caused everything to get more expensive. So, yes, your groceries got more expensive. They went up. That went up in price. Your insurance went up in price. You know what else went up in price? Home prices. They went through the roof. Equities went up in price. A lot of the gains that we've seen in the market for several years now have simply been inflation. It has been the dollar going down that has driven up stock prices. Not entirely, but that's been a large portion of it. So Wall street does better a lot of times in periods of rapid inflation because all of these assets appreciate rate in price. That means that Main street really, really takes it on the chin. But Wall street can ride it out a lot of times. I don't want that. I want Wall street to go up because people on Main street are getting bigger paychecks that can buy more. And when they can buy more, corporations do better. And that's causing corporate earnings to go up. That's a much better alternative. And that's traditionally how this country has grown as compared to simply inflating up corporate profits. So again, this economic restructuring that they're aiming for and that the Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen has talked about a lot is about building the economy for Main street and the trickle up, if you will, going to Wall street as opposed to hyper fixating on Wall street and using methods like inflation to artificially boost corporations. Bottom line. Yeah.

[Lisa]

And to be fair, like, I got so angry during COVID like I refused to do the whole, like, we're all in this together because we weren't, you know, and I thought that was the biggest talking lines. You had all these people and what, you know, people like Martin Coldorf and a lot of these guys came on my podcast calling the Laptop Class because you had a lot of these people who are totally, they weren't impacted at all during COVID They had their jobs, they could work from home. And then you had like small businesses and the middle class suffering. And I thought that was such bs. I would refuse to say we're all in this together and said it was like the biggest bunch of bs. So it's like, I just, I want, you know, Rising Tide to lift all boats. I want everyone to do well in the economy. I want a strong, robust America, I do believe, and having, you know, strong manufacturing base here in the United States of producing our own goods, being self reliant. But I don't want Americans to be punished in the process, I guess, you know, how do, like, what's the path forward here? Like, how can we build a stronger Main Street America, stronger middle class. And the middle class, by the way, also got gutted during COVID because of lockdowns because of all those, you know, the punishment that they had to endure during all of that with lockdowns and draconian policies. So I guess how do we build a stronger middle class and have a policy where a rising tide lifts all boats? Very long winded. Way to get to the question.

[E.J. Antonio]

It's a great question. And your entire analysis of COVID and what happened there was spot on. You're absolutely right. That was another case where we gutted the middle class for the benefit of a handful of people. Some of that was Wall Street. Sure, but we forced every mom and pop store in the country to close down and said everyone now has to go shop at Walmart. Those stores can stay open. Wait, wouldn't it be better if we were all dispersed among a lot of different stores instead of all being crowded into the same location? Whatever. So much for following the science. So your analysis is right and it's a great question. Here's the answer. What really, truly afflicts us are all things that we've done to ourselves. In other words, if you get rid of the bad public policies that have caused these self inflicted wounds, the effects of all the bad policies will go away. So what does that look like? It means again, massive deregulation. People think that the manufacturing sector, the big thing hurting us right now is competition from overseas. I mean, yes and no. Yes, insofar as people can make stuff cheaper than we can here. But why is that? The American worker has three times more capital at his fingertips than his Chinese counterpart. In other words, instead of putting together something with hand tools, the American worker has power tools. He should be much more productive. And even though he gets paid a lot more than his Chinese counterpart, he should still be competitive. He's not because of the regulatory burden that he faces. So Lisa, let's say the typical manufacturing employee in this country makes like 50,000 or $60,000. The average regulatory burden that the manufacturer, the employer faces is like another $50,000 or $60,000 a year. So in terms of the cost to employ this person, it could easily be twice as much as the person's salary. And that's before we even start talking about any kind of benefits package. That's a huge regulatory burden that has made it cost ineffective to employ people here and to build stuff here. And that's been a big reason why we've had to drive manufacturing overseas. Now on top of that, we have other things like the fact that we treat for tax purposes, we treat things differently if they were made overseas versus made here, which is Just absolutely stupid. We literally are giving a tax advantage to someone who shifts their factory over to Mexico. So that's a great reason why you should have something like a border adjustment tax instead of this flat 10% tariff you would have. Essentially you would tax imports, but tax exempt exports so that things are only getting taxed once. And you're getting rid of the artificial tax advantage that you've created by making stuff in a factory in Mexico, let's say, instead of in Michigan. So getting rid of the regulatory burden, getting rid of these crazy tax differentials also. So getting overall tax rates back down, that would be huge. But in order to do a lot of that, you gotta get the government spending down. I mean, at one point we actually financed all of our government spending, Lisa, just with tariffs. And it'd be great to get back there, but you'd have to cut the government down from about 20%. But if you really want to get income taxes down, which is what we need to supercharge growth, you got to cut government spending. I mean, there are other policies that we can do that would really help boost growth and help lower costs here. Energy production is a key part of that. Energy is a ubiquitous input throughout the economy. It goes into everything we do and everything we buy. So if you reduce its cost, you reduce costs literally everywhere. And if you can increase domestic energy production, I'm talking actual energy here, not things like solar and wind that are net losers, but actual net generators of energy. That's coal, that's oil, that's natural gas. If you can do all of that, you will drive down prices. You will have an anti inflationary effect, a deflationary effect that will be very positive on growth. It'll help increase real incomes, not just nominal incomes. That is the recipe for restoring the middle class. Not some kind of class war where we go after Wall street street and try to redistribute income. Not something where we try to create an economic autarky here in this nation and we try to shut out foreign competition. I have every faith that the American worker and that American businesses can compete on the world stage if we give them a level playing field. And it's not just a level playing field in terms of tariffs. It's a level playing field in terms of taxes and regulation here at home.

[Lisa]

We've got to take a quick break. More with EJ on the other side this month and every month. We remember the over 66 million babies whose lives have been senselessly sacrificed on the altar of abortion. Surely the left doesn't understand the repercussions of a land that takes the blood of the innocent. And that should only motivate us more. To save more babies lives Preborn's network of clinics fight every day to save more babies. And to date, they have rescued over 300,000 babies lives. By introducing a mother to her child on ultrasound, a baby's chances at life doubles. And that's not all. Preborn showers mothers and babies with God's love and assistance for up to two years. When they shout abortion, we shout life. Let's save more babies. One ultrasound is just $28 and $140 will help rescue five babies. Any amount will help, and all gifts are tax deductible. To donate, securely dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250 baby or go to preborn.com hope that's preborn.com hope preborn.com hope.

[E.J. Antonio]

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[Lisa]

Okay, real talk, we're all kind of hooked on our phones. It's full of shiny apps designed to keep your attention captive forever. But there's real life stuff to do other than scrolling, and I'm here to help. I'm Christina Quinn, the host of Try this, a podcast from the Washington Post. The show explores solutions for life's common problems. And this season we're learning to tame the dopamine beast and reclaim our attention in this noisy and distracting world. So let's tame the beast together. Find Try this from the Washington Post. Wherever you listen, you know how we're.

[E.J. Antonio]

Always talking about what's next?

[Lisa]

Well, I found it. It's called Formula E. Forget everything you.

[E.J. Antonio]

Think you know about racing. This isn't just cars going fast.

[Lisa]

It's like a supercomputer on wheels.

[E.J. Antonio]

The tech is insane, and the drivers, they're like chess grandmasters at 200 miles per hour. You've got to see it. Trust me, you'll be hooked. Follow Formula E live on Roku.

[Lisa]

Next Race Miami, April 12 Bobby Bowens.

[E.J. Antonio]

Here with news on the Top shelf. Country Cruise setting sail February 27 to March 6, 2026.

[Lisa]

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[E.J. Antonio]

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[Lisa]

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[E.J. Antonio]

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[Lisa]

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[E.J. Antonio]

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[Lisa]

You know, before we go, just, you know, I know the President's all about leverage. And, you know, he tends to kind of. He talks about this in the art of the deal of sort of, you know, you pick a more extreme position to move the other side to, you know, something that you're okay with, a more. More acceptable position. How much of not laying out sort of clear desires and clear goal points, is that a negotiation strategy, or do you think they're just still trying to figure out what exactly they want from this?

[E.J. Antonio]

I. Unfortunately, I think some of it is they're trying to figure out what they want. But I think you also might have too many cooks in the kitchen. So you have different people saying they want different things, and it's creating more uncertainty, not less. I. Yeah, I think the art of the deal component here is essentially the whole reciprocity argument, right? It's saying to countries, look, we're going to do to you what you do to us. But I'm very generous. This is Trump here. I'm very generous. Right. I will reduce all of these tariffs if you reduce your trade barriers as well. The problem with. With this kind of random approach where you have no idea where these tariff rates come from, you have no idea what the goals are, is that it makes it difficult for other countries to even come to the negotiating table in the first place. In other words, Canada doesn't know what they're supposed to do. We're hearing it's about tariffs, but then we're hearing it. It's not about tariffs, it's about trade deficits. And then we're hearing it's about national security, and maybe it's about a little bit of all of those things. But then we need that defined know we need to hear from this administration, these specific products. It's important for us that we make them here. Or maybe it's important for us that we have a certain percentage of our microchip production made here. It's important for us that we have a certain percentage of our aluminum and steel production made here. Let's get that out there. Let's figure out what exactly the goal is, and then you can incorporate an art of the deal component where you say, all right, what we really want is half of our steel production made here. So the President doesn't come out and he asks for half. He comes out and asks for 75%. And now the other major steel making countries around the world come to the table and are like, Mr. President, that's a lot. We don't know if we can meet you there. What if we just go to 50% instead of you making 75% of your steel? Is it okay if you only make 50? And then Trump says, ah, well, okay, I guess that's enough. Right? That's, that would be, I think, think how we can do the art of the deal here. But until we get some more substantive goals, I think it's going to be really, really difficult to move forward. Now, that being said, we are seeing some progress, right? The Treasury Secretary was able to confirm 50 countries have called the White House asking for some kind of deal. As of right now, only a couple of them have been willing to actually make any kinds of concessions. But again, hopefully with a little more direction out of the white, those 50 countries are not just going to be saying, we want to make a deal. Hopefully there'll be a concrete deal.

[Lisa]

Right. E.J. antonio, appreciate your time. Would love to have you back on as we try to continue to navigate this and see where it's going and pray that the outcome is positive for the country and that President Trump's vision is correct. So we appreciate you taking the time to come on the show.

[E.J. Antonio]

Lisa, my pleasure as always. Thank you for having me.

[Lisa]

That was E.J. antonio, economist with the Heritage Foundation. We appreciate him for taking the time to join the show. Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday. But of course you can listen throughout the week until next time.

[E.J. Antonio]

It's tax season and by now, I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to hear. $16.5 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Here's another 20%. That's the overall increase in identity theft related to tax fraud in 2024 alone. But it's not all grim news. Here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points Lifelock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it. Backed by another good number, the million dollar protection plan. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back.

[Lisa]

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[E.J. Antonio]

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[Lisa]

I'm Molly Roberts.

[E.J. Antonio]

And I'm Drew Goins. Each Friday on Impromptu, we talk through the questions we can't stop thinking about.

[Lisa]

Do we need to rethink how much we drink?

[E.J. Antonio]

Why are companies really asking workers to come back to the office? Does boycotting a business actually work? Should we quit social media?

[Lisa]

We're here when the news gets personal and the headlines hit home.

[E.J. Antonio]

Join Molly and me every Friday on Impromptu from Washington Post opinions.

[Lisa]

Find Impromptu wherever you get your podcasts. For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent, where money means more. Connect with [e-mail] you know how we're.

[E.J. Antonio]

Always talking about what's next?

[Lisa]

Well, I found it.

[E.J. Antonio]

It's called Formula E. Forget everything you think you know about racing. This isn't just cars going fast.

[Lisa]

It's like a supercomputer on wheels.

[E.J. Antonio]

The tech is insane and the drivers, they're like chess grandmasters at 200 miles per hour. You've got to see it. Trust me, you'll be hooked. Follow Formula E live on roku next.

[Lisa]

Race my Miami, April 12th Bobby Bones.

[E.J. Antonio]

Here with news on the top shelf. Country Cruise setting sail February 27 to March 6, 2026.

[Lisa]

It's not just a cruise.

[E.J. Antonio]

It's a country music experience at sea.

[Lisa]

An amazing lineup of performers.

[E.J. Antonio]

Well, we're going to be there.

[Lisa]

The Bobby Bones Show.

[E.J. Antonio]

I'm going to be there. Keith Urban, lee Bryce, Scotty McCreary, Parmalee, LeAnn Rimes. It doesn't end there. We'll also be stopping in stunning destinations along the way. Go to topshelfcountrycruise.com to book any available stateroom. Gotta hurry, though. These spots are filling up fast.