The Truth with Lisa Boothe: Borders, Gangs, and Games: The Kilmer Abrego Garcia Case

Summary

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show Episode: The Truth with Lisa Boothe: Borders, Gangs, and Games: The Kilmar Abrego Garcia Case Release Date: April 17, 2025

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Introduction to the Kilmar Abrego Garcia Case

In this episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, hosts Clay Travis and Buck Sexton delve deep into the controversial case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, exploring its implications on U.S. immigration policy and national security. Joined by Will Chamberlain, Senior Counsel at the Article 3 Project, the discussion unpacks the complexities surrounding Garcia's legal battles and alleged ties to the notorious MS-13 gang.

Abuse of the Immigration System by Illegal Migrants and Lawyers

Will Chamberlain opens the discussion by outlining Garcia's immigration history, highlighting his unauthorized entry into the United States in 2012 and his prolonged illegal stay of seven years before his detention by ICE in 2019. Chamberlain asserts that Garcia exploited the system by falsely claiming asylum to avoid deportation:

"He was about to be removed from El Salvador until he concocted a story about fearing persecution from the 18th Street gang, which he admitted was a fabricated claim to stay in the country." ([04:10])

Chamberlain criticizes immigration lawyers for facilitating such abuses, suggesting that they manipulate legal avenues to retain clients unlawfully present in the U.S.:

"This is an example of how immigration lawyers and their clients make a mockery of our system. It works if people are being honest, but I don't believe this person was being honest at all." ([06:15])

Determining Credible Fear in Asylum Cases

A pivotal point in the conversation revolves around the concept of "credible fear" and its application in asylum proceedings. Chamberlain questions the effectiveness and fairness of immigration judges in assessing the credibility of asylum seekers, especially those with prior illegal status:

"If you were trying to figure out what is the evidence that Abrego Garcia presented to the immigration judge, it's just his own testimony and affidavits from his family. The obvious conclusion there is, well, of course, his family would lie to the court in order to keep him in the country." ([07:58])

He emphasizes the inherent bias in presuming the truthfulness of individuals who have already violated immigration laws, advocating for stricter scrutiny in such cases.

Political Perspectives on Immigration: Left vs. Right

The hosts and Chamberlain explore the stark contrast between Democratic and Republican approaches to immigration. They argue that the Democratic Party often portrays illegal migrants in a sympathetic light, undermining efforts to enforce immigration laws. Chamberlain criticizes the left for using cases like Garcia's to push political agendas:

"The Democratic Party has got it through its head that you shouldn't be trying to make illegal aliens who abused our system into standard bearers for your party." ([17:01])

Buck Sexton adds that this strategy not only misrepresents the realities of illegal immigration but also alienates voters who prioritize law enforcement and national security.

Use of the Alien Enemies Act in Deportations

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the Trump administration's invocation of the Alien Enemies Act to expedite the deportation of individuals like Garcia. Chamberlain explains the legal nuances and challenges associated with this approach:

"Facilitate is to merely remove obstacles on your end, whereas to effectuate means to actively bring about. The Supreme Court objected to ordering the president to engage in diplomacy, emphasizing the limits of judicial authority over executive actions." ([20:10])

He underscores that while the Act was intended to streamline deportations, judicial interpretations have limited its effectiveness, requiring clear demarcations between facilitating and effectuating deportations.

Implications for Justice and National Security

The episode concludes with a broader reflection on the state of the U.S. immigration system and its impact on justice and national security. Chamberlain advocates for robust enforcement measures to deter illegal immigration, aligning with the administration's goals to restore border integrity:

"The message isn't for us. The message is for illegal migrants. We want to make clear to them that if you come to this country illegally, you will be removed." ([26:19])

Clay Travis echoes these sentiments, expressing concern over potential slippery slopes in immigration policy and the importance of maintaining stringent measures to protect American interests.

Conclusion

Through a comprehensive analysis of the Kilmar Abrego Garcia case, The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show sheds light on the intricate dynamics of U.S. immigration policy, the exploitation of legal systems by unauthorized migrants and their attorneys, and the political battleground surrounding these issues. The conversation emphasizes the need for reforms that balance humanitarian considerations with the imperative to enforce immigration laws effectively.

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Notable Quotes:

• Will Chamberlain ([04:10]): "He was about to be removed from El Salvador until he concocted a story about fearing persecution from the 18th Street gang, which he admitted was a fabricated claim to stay in the country."

• Will Chamberlain ([07:58]): "If you were trying to figure out what is the evidence that Abrego Garcia presented to the immigration judge, it's just his own testimony and affidavits from his family. The obvious conclusion there is, well, of course, his family would lie to the court in order to keep him in the country."

• Will Chamberlain ([17:01]): "The Democratic Party has got it through its head that you shouldn't be trying to make illegal aliens who abused our system into standard bearers for your party."

• Will Chamberlain ([20:10]): "Facilitate is to merely remove obstacles on your end, whereas to effectuate means to actively bring about. The Supreme Court objected to ordering the president to engage in diplomacy, emphasizing the limits of judicial authority over executive actions."

• Will Chamberlain ([26:19]): "The message isn't for us. The message is for illegal migrants. We want to make clear to them that if you come to this country illegally, you will be removed."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a clear and detailed overview for listeners and those interested in the intricacies of U.S. immigration policy and its broader societal implications.

Transcript

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[Host]

Is he a Maryland man or a member of Ms. 13? Today, we will dive into the complex and often contentious world of immigration policy and legal battles facing the Trump administration. In this episode, we sit down with Will Chamberlain, senior counsel at the Article 3 project to unpack the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia from allegations of Ms. 13 ties to a web of legal maneuvers that kept him in the United States. We'll explore how this case exposes deep flaws in our immigration system. Join us as we discuss the lies, the lawyers, and the broader implications for justice and national security. Stay tuned for Will Chamberlain. Well, it's great to have you on the show. I wanted to have someone on to talk about this case case, and then I saw your post and reached out. So I appreciate you making the time and. And look forward to trying to make this case a little less complicated for people.

[Will Chamberlain]

Yeah, it's good to be here with you, Lisa.

[Host]

All right, so the media is obviously in the left trying to make this a situation where Kilmore Abrigo Garcia, he's just a Maryland man. You know, he's a father. He's done nothing wrong, really trying to turn him into a sympathetic figure. So you posted on X. The story of Kilmar Abrego Garcia is not about the wrongful deportation of a Maryland father. It's about the abuse of her immigration system by illegal migrants, the lawyers who help them lie and the nonprofits who agitate to keep them in the country, I guess. Walk us through. How did Garcia abuse her immigration system?

[Will Chamberlain]

Well, well, by his own admission, he crossed into the country in 2012, and he did so without any legal status. He never applied for asylum. He never, you know, showed up at a port of entry. He just crossed the border. And he lived in this country illegally for seven years without having any interaction with immigration authorities until in 2019, he was detained by ICE. And when he was detained, he was about to be removed. And then he decided to say, well, actually, I fear persecution in my home country, so I'm going to apply for asylum. But also something called withholding of removal, which means you would not be able to remove him to his native country of El Salvador. He was granted that withholding and then managed to stay in the country six more years, despite the fact that he was still removable to any country in the world other than El Salvador. And, you know, now in 2025, he's finally being removed, and everybody's portraying it as Both that, you know, this massive injustice and this massive lack of due process. Now, I mean, to be clear, I think there was a procedural flaw here, as the administration admitted, given that this withhold, withholding of removal was still in legal effect, he should have been, he should not have been removed from El Salvador until that was fixed. But I, I see the story as more one of how, how illegal migrants and their lawyers help exploit the system. Because, you know, you, you go back to 2019, you had the first immigration judge, you know, he's somebody. He asked for bond to be released pending, you know, disposition of this removal petition. And the judge said, no, there's evidence you're a member of MS.13. You can't prove you're not a danger to the community. No, you're, you're going to stay in jail. And so yet somebody who had already been in the country for eight, seven years illegally was, you know, found to have, at least there's some evidence that he's an Ms. 13 gang member, was somehow able to stay in the country. And the reason he was is because, you know, a few months later, he had this very well developed sob story that said that if he were sent back to EL SALVADOR, the 18th street gang would kill him because eight years previously, they had threatened his mother's pupusa business. They tried to extort it. And, you know, the pupusa business had closed in the, in the interim. But so what he said, I'm still, they're still going to try and kill me. And I mean, this was just frivolous. I mean, it was obvious what the actual reason he was saying all this stuff was. He was about to be removed. He was about to be a father to, to the child of a US Citizen. He wanted to stay with his family. I get it, but the law says he needs to go home. And. Except if he comes up with, you know, except if he actually has this credible fear of being persecuted. And so he came up with a credible fear of hearing being persecuted. And my suspicion is that his lawyers told him this is the only way you can stay in the country, and then left the room and allowed him and his family to concoct this story. And yet, so to me, this is an example of how immigration lawyers and their clients make a mockery of our system. It works if people are being honest, but I don't believe this person was being honest at all. I think they came up with just a ridiculous story at the time to stay in the country. But even if his story is true, in 2025, it's irrelevant because Nayib Bukele has crushed the games in El Salvador. So even if there was this fear of persecution, that fear should have been gone. He should have gone home. But, no, of course not. He was trying to stay in the country. And that's exactly what American citizens elected Donald Trump to stop. We want illegal immigrants to go home.

[Host]

And we know that this credible fear narrative with asylum seekers is often abused. Do we know how immigration judges determine if the individual has a true, credible fear or not?

[Will Chamberlain]

I mean, it's literally, if I read this case right in the, in the, the law as stated by the immigration judge, it's just literally up to the judge. The judge can make any kind of credibility determination that they want. And the remarkable thing is the judge explains that, you know, these migrants, they don't, obviously they, they say they don't have any written evidence necessarily, or they. Because, you know, the events leading to the fear of persecution happened in a foreign country, they're not expected to provide any evidence. So it's literally just. If you, if you were trying to figure out what is the evidence that Abrego Garcia presented to the immigration judge, it's just his own testimony and affidavits from his family. And the, the obvious conclusion there is, well, of course, his family would lie to the court in order to keep him in the country. Right. These people, you know, you start with a presumption. This guy didn't have a lot of respect for our laws in the first instance because he crossed illegally and stayed here illegally for eight years, seven years. Why. Why are we treating his testimony to, you know, avoid deportation as credible? I. I don't know. But the fact that our system, in our system, you can communicate this credible fear of persecution with nothing more than the testimony of you and your family, well, that's ridiculous. I'm sorry. You should go home. You. And. And if you wanted to make these claims, you should have made them immediately when you got here.

[Host]

Well, yeah, I was going to say, I mean, we're. We're trusting the word of someone who's already abused our laws and, you know, had no regard for them to begin with. We've got more with Will. But first, as we celebrate this holy season, let's take a moment to reflect on God's creation. You. In Psalms, we learned that God knit you together in your mother's womb. His eyes saw your unformed body. He saw who you were created to be before you became you. Preborn Ministries wants to remind you that each one of you is made in the image of God and life is sacred. Life is eternal. You may have come to earth as an unplanned pregnancy, but whether planned or unplanned, your life has value. And every day of your life is ordained by God. Please take a moment today to thank God for life. And we invite you to remember babies in their mother's wombs. Their lives count too. Last year alone, Preborn's network of clinics rescued over 67,000 babies from abortion. Your tax deductible donation of $28 sponsors one ultrasound and doubles a baby's chance at life. How many babies can you save? Please donate your best gift today. Just dial pound250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound250 baby. Or go to preborn.com/boom. That's preborn.com/boomth. B O O T H e sponsored.

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[Host]

Now the allegation is that he had ties or you know, has ties to Ms. 13. What, what evidence is there for that? Is that relevant to this?

[Will Chamberlain]

So it's not exactly clear what evidence was and we have some idea because we have to go all the way Back to the 2019 immigration bond hearing, which we've only seen a little bit of the records of. But it looks like that judge had in front of them both some sort of gang sheet, like an identification with the police that said this person was Ms. 13, along with testimony from some sort of confidential informant and the idea that he was wearing apparel that was aligned with MS.13. But we don't know that that's all the evidence. Like let's. That's literally what's what is mentioned in a two page immigration judge hearing. There might well be more. It's a little bit rich that everybody is just saying there's no evidence. Well, clearly there's not no evidence. This guy was found by an immigration judge to be a verified member of MS.13 and that finding was upheld on appeal and the people claiming there's no evidence or this is wrong are just his lawyers. Just his lawyers putting out press releases or filing a blade saying, oh, this was nonsense. He's not really Ms. 13. Well, it's like that hasn't been tested. Now, granted, I think, you know, we haven't. It hasn't been proven in a court beyond a reasonable doubt that he's a member of Ms. 13. But that's not the relevant standard because the question is what actually matters here for the purposes of whether or not this guy should be removed? Well, the MS.13 could matter in the sense that if he is actually an MS.13 member or then he's ineligible for withholding of removal and so could have. That. That would be one way that the administration could go to the administrative immigration judge and say, you need to lift this guy's withholding of removal. But there's other ways to do that. As discussed, the. There's no real fear of persecution in El Salvador anymore because it's now one of the safest countries in the Western hemisphere. The real reason that he needs to be deported is because he's an illegal alien or he was an illegal alien in our country. That was all that was needed from the get go. Like, there's a red herring that the, you know, the left media puts out there that it's like, well, he has no criminal record, so he's. He's an illegal alien in our country. You don't have a right to be here. You can be removed, period.

[Host]

Well, I think it sort of underscores the different way that we view immigration between the parties. Right. Because the left, clearly, they don't believe that coming into the country illegally is grounds for removal. Right. Like, they're, they're perfectly fine with it, whereas obviously we are not as Republicans, you know. And it's interesting because during the first Trump administration, the argument for the left or from the left was that, you know, the Trump administration was inhumane because of family separation. I feel like that was probably like a stronger political argument to make, you know, like, oh, children, you know, and now it seems like they are defending, you know, potential pro Hamas sympathizers and, you know, maybe Ms. 13 members. And, you know, and so I wonder what the political fallout. You know, I think that's also why they're trying to add this sympathetic, you know, Marilyn father, you know, kind of like trying to just to, you know, add some of these more like sympathetic descriptive words attached to the guy. But, you know, it's an interesting. I don't know politically how this will play out for them.

[Will Chamberlain]

Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think that it's a. President Trump got elected running on a platform of mass deportation. And the American public, in polls for obviously first they elected him, but also in polls they indicated that they support mass deportation. And I, I don't think the, the Democratic Party has got it through its head that you shouldn't be trying to make illegal aliens who abused our system into standard bearers for your party. And that's what they're doing both in this. I mean, these are, I was thinking about it, somebody asked like, why, why is the Democrat Party doing this? And it's just because they're dominated by the sort of Brooklyn professional, managerial class, journalist types. And you know, for these people, I mean, the victims of murder by illegal aliens are irrelevant and annoying. But, you know, the moment they can advocate on behalf of somebody who's in our country illegally or somebody who's advocating on behalf of terrorist groups in Israel, they jump at it. It could be because that's their milieu for whatever reason. And I think it just, if they keep making this mistake and you know, there's. The funny thing is they're in much better. You know, the economy's got issues right now. Like, I think Trump's going to pull it out with these tariffs. But you know, that if I were, you know, a dispassionate political consultant advising the Democrats, I'd be like, we don't want to be talking about this. People hate this. We want to be talking about the economy and tariffs and how everything's getting more expensive and yet they're not.

[Host]

Well, you know, and you even have Democrats like Maryland Senate Democrat Chris Van Hollen saying that, you know, he's going to organize a CODEL to El Salvador.

[Will Chamberlain]

Which, yeah, Diet Bukele has the chance to do the funniest thing.

[Host]

Just not let him in.

[Will Chamberlain]

No, no, just arrest them and throw him in jail too. Sorry, I'm kidding.

[Host]

No, I know, but it's like that, you know, if it is a codel, that's like on us, right? That's taxpayer funded resources for them to go make the argument and to make a spectacle out of a potential MS.13 member and arguing for his return, which, you know, to the broader point, politically, it just does not seem like, you know, that's.

[Will Chamberlain]

The story never ends with him coming back because he has no legal status in the United States. If, you know, they want to say, well, he's not an MS.13 member and we need to give him More due process. It's like, okay, guess what happens? Bukele releases him. He come, he gets flown back to the United States, put right back into an ICE detention center, and we go through the process and he'll get removed because the basis on which he got his withholding of removal in El Salvador is this fear of the 18th street gang extorting his mom's pupusa business while the 18th street gang is defeated. So you don't have any basis for it anymore. You never had legal status in the United States. You're going home. So it always ends up with him back in El Salvador.

[Host]

Yeah. The Supreme Court's ruling to facilitate but not effectuate Garcia's return. What's the importance and the differentiation between those two words? And what exactly did the Supreme Court say with this case?

[Will Chamberlain]

Well, honestly, the Supreme Court was pretty vague, but this is my understanding on it, based on reading the opinion and a lot of the briefing and the underlying cases. So there's been plenty of times where ICE has been ordered to facilitate the entry of illegal aliens back into the country, or aliens, rather, back into the country so that they can get. So that there could be further immigration proceedings for whatever reason. That's, that's happened in the past. And, but that what that's meant is you need to get rid of the obstacles, the United States side obstacles in the way of this person coming back to the country. Right. There's not an assumption that the, the government should go, you know, actively, you know, that the court has the right to order the government to go engage in diplomacy. Right. The president is the sole diplomatic organ of the United States. And so when this district court put in place an order that said facilitate and effectuate the return of Abrego Garcia, interestingly, like the, the lawyers for BR Garcia knew, I haven't talked to them, but they knew that this was too broad an order because when they were arguing this to the Court of Appeals, they were saying, oh, look at all these cases, saying that ICE must facilitate the return of an alien. They knew that there's a difference between those two things, because to facilitate is to make something easier, but to effectuate is to make it happen. Right. To, to bring the end result about. And that's what the Supreme Court objected to. They agree that, you know, the court obviously had the ability to order the government to facilitate his return to, to take care of obstacles on its own end because the administration itself admitted that the deportation was administrative error. But they didn't have the right to just order the president to engage in diplomacy. And so the Supreme Court was nice and told the district judge, you need to clarify your order and ensure that you give due deference to the president's Article 2 authorities. It doesn't look like this, this district judge, Judge Zinis, did that. But that's, that's the difference between facilitate and effectuate. Facilitate is to merely in, in the, in this context means to simply remove obstacles on your end, whereas to effectuate means to actively bring about.

[Host]

We've got to take a quick commercial break. More with Will on the other side.

[Matt Gaetz]

Hey, Matt Gaetz here. Listen, after everything we've been through the last few years, saying we have trust issues is an understatement. They pushed a questionable vaccine, and when we asked for alternatives like ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine, they shut us down. They used pressure lies and red tape to block access to medications that were once easy to get. That cannot happen again. And with All Family Pharmacy, it won't. All Family Pharmacy is redefining healthcare. No waiting rooms, no delays, no insurance games, just direct access to over 200 trusted medications, including ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, menbendazole, antibiotics, emergency kits, and so much more. You can customize your order and have it shipped straight to your door. They believe in medical freedom. You decide what works for your health, not some bloated system. Over 100,000Americans already trust them, and maybe it's time you do, too. Go to AllFamilyPharmacy.com USA and use code USA10 for 10% off your first order. Again, that's AllFamilyPharmacy.comUSA with code USA10 for 10% off.

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[Colby Ekowitz]

We've all done it. You see a headline but don't have time to read the whole story or there's so much news you're not sure what is worth your time. I'm Colby Ekowitz, co host of Post Reports, the weekday afternoon podcast from the Washington Post. Post Reports brings you what's Relevant and revealing breaking stories, politics, wellness, culture. Each episode goes beyond a headline for the context you need. Find post reports now wherever you're listening.

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[Thrivent Advertiser]

For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves. Loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent, where money means more. Connect with [e-mail].

[Host]

The only place I don't agree with the Trump administration is that President Trump has said that he wants to send U.S. citizens who commit funding crimes to El Salvador. And obviously we can see how that becomes a real slippery slope, particularly during COVID when, you know, people like me didn't get the COVID vaccine and like, nearly half of Democrats wanted to send us to government camps. So, you know, like, and now the left views basically all of us who have supported Trump as, you know, more or less terrorists. So I worry about that and what that would mean for us if we lose power or when, you know, we inevitably lose power because it bounces back and forth between the parties and it will continue to do so for the rest of American history. So like, you know, let's not, I'm totally fine with what he's doing with illegal aliens, you know, and people who don't deserve to be in our country. But like, I don't think we go there with citizens.

[Will Chamberlain]

I completely agree and I think that's ultimately where the President will end up. I think, you know, if we need, if we want to deal with, if we have an issue with under incarceration in our own country, which we kind of do, there's, there's, there's, there's more criminals that need to be incarcerated, but we can just build more jails for our own citizens. But I agree with you, I don't I think I don't, I don't understand what complaint the Venezuelans, you know, trend arrago gang members have. They never had a right to be in our country in the first instance. And really, I mean, this is all a product of the fact that the Venezuelan government wouldn't accept their citizens being repatriated. It's like, well, okay, then we're going to find another place to send them to. And I think one of the things the Trump administration does understand is the need for deterrence is the need to deter the entry of illegal aliens. And, and you know, I've seen a lot of people be very critical of Kristi Noem and her photo ops. It's at the El Salvador, in prison or wherever else. The point of all this, the message isn't for us. The message is for illegal migrants. We want to make clear to them that if you come to this country illegally, you will be removed. And it probably won't be very nice. And that's why we've seen illegal immigration go down 95% year over year. Illegal crossings. It's a real accomplishment of the administration. I think they need to keep it up.

[Host]

I mean, she did kill dogs, so I guess, you know, there's credible fear for the illegal aliens that they, maybe.

[Will Chamberlain]

That was the reason she was selected. I was like, I thought her political career was as dead as that dog, but apparently not. And maybe, maybe that's what you need to do. You need to, you know, like, what if we illegal, if we cross the border illegally, maybe what will happen to us is what happened to the dog?

[Host]

I don't know if you can kill a cute little dog, then I guess anything's fair game at that point. So I don't know if I want to. What your point about the, the Venezuelans? I, I've made this point on TV as well, when people are like, well, why are we sending them to El Salvador? Like, this is awful. I get it. But like a lot of these country, and I know we reached a deal with Venezuela at the end of March to repatriate, you know, some of these migrants and for them to finally take some people back. But a lot of these countries, who is going to want to take back MS.13 and trend Aragua gang members or murderers or rapists. And so that's the challenge that President Trump is facing when he's trying to do these mass deportations, particularly with the worst of the worst, is, you know, these countries aren't going to want to take them back.

[Will Chamberlain]

Right. And I mean, part of his point with Trenda Ragua, it's the reason they were, you know, had this Alien Enemies act proclamation is that it's pretty clear that the, it's the Venezuelan government sent them here, that this wasn't unintentional. They sent a gang into our country to, you know, make mischief and disrupt things. So, yeah, no, of course they're not trying to take them back. Now with MS.13, it's actually much simpler, you know, naive. Bukele is a really good ally and he wants to take them and imprison him and them in his own jail. And that's, you know, really what this is all about.

[Host]

What do you make of the Trump administration's use of the Alien Enemies Act?

[Will Chamberlain]

The Alien Enemies Act, I think it's probably not going to be that much of an increase in efficiency over the normal immigration process because I think the Supreme Court and other judges agree that while there's not, you know, any judicial role to remove to, to re. Sorry. To review the President's decision that there's been a war or predatory incursion, they still have the right to review whether somebody individually is in the class of people that are covered by the Alien Enemies Act. So I'm not sure it actually speeds things up more than a standard issue deportation proceeding given what the Supreme Court is doing. But I, my view is I'm perfectly fine with it in the sense that President Biden launched a mass invasion of illegal aliens who are into our country. That's why there is a mass deportation. I think the Trump administration should be using every tool it's at its disposal to deport these people.

[Host]

I agree. And you know, the American people, that's what they wanted. They voted for it was the second most important issue and President Trump won the popular vote. So Will Chamberlain, senior counsel at the Article 3 project, appreciate your time. Thank you for breaking this down for us. It was very helpful.

[Will Chamberlain]

All right, thanks for having me.

[Host]

That was Will Chamberlain, senior counsel at the Article 3 project. Appreciate him for making the time. Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, but you can listen throughout the week. Until next time.

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