The Truth with Lisa Boothe: Can Trump’s Diplomacy with Putin Pave the Way for Peace in Ukraine?

Summary

Podcast Summary

The Truth with Lisa Boothe: "Can Trump’s Diplomacy with Putin Pave the Way for Peace in Ukraine?"

Episode Date: August 19, 2025
Host: Lisa Boothe
Guest: Fred Fleitz, Vice Chair, America First Policy Institute – Center for American Security; Former NSC Chief of Staff under President Trump

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the recent Trump-Putin summit in Alaska and the prospects for peace in Ukraine, exploring whether Donald Trump’s approach to foreign policy—especially his willingness to directly negotiate with adversaries like Vladimir Putin—can pave the way for a durable solution to the ongoing conflict. Host Lisa Boothe is joined by Fred Fleitz, a veteran national security official closely familiar with Trump’s style and strategy, for an in-depth conversation on the meeting’s significance, contrasting diplomatic styles across recent US administrations, and the contours of possible peace agreements.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Trump-Putin Alaska Summit: Context, Outcomes, and Media Response

• Initial Takeaways: Fred Fleitz asserts that Trump’s ability to convene such a summit is itself significant, as European nations had not initiated any similar peace process before Trump’s intervention.
  • “The only reason there’s a peace plan or a peace process is because of Trump... What happened in Alaska was that Trump went to Putin and he determined that he had enough progress to go to the next stage.” (Fred Fleitz, 03:06)
• Criticism of Media and Europe: Both Boothe and Fleitz see media criticism of Trump as reflexive and dismissive of progress.
  • “President Trump is just so frustrated with the mainstream media... if Russia had surrendered the whole country to Ukraine, they’d still claim this was a failure for Trump.” (Fred Fleitz, 03:06)
• Substance of Talks: The summit is described as having produced some agreements and setting the stage for ongoing negotiations with Zelensky and European leaders.
  • “The most important thing out of the summit was talk that there may be an agreement of security assurances that Russia may agree to...” (Fred Fleitz, 04:07)

2. Assessing Trump’s Diplomatic Approach: Strengths, Flexibility, and Style

• Trump’s Openness to Direct Dialogue: Fleitz emphasizes that Trump’s willingness to meet with adversaries is essential to peacemaking—contrasting sharply with Biden’s approach.
  • “American and Russian presidents should be meeting and talking all the time. The fact that Biden didn’t do this made the world less safe.” (Fred Fleitz, 05:43)
• Willingness to Walk Away: Lisa references Trump’s “walk away” posture as a negotiation tactic.
  • “He said...if he’s unhappy at any point or he feels like Putin’s kind of giving him the run around, that he’s out, he’s willing to walk. And I believe that.” (Lisa Boothe, 05:11)
• Changing Tactics: Fleitz credits Trump for shifting strategies when needed, such as imposing tougher sanctions or sending aid through NATO after initial diplomacy failed with Putin.
  • “When your policies aren’t working, you have to change those policies. You have to be flexible. And I think Trump showed that with Putin…” (Fred Fleitz, 19:34)

3. Dynamics with Ukraine and President Zelensky

• Zelensky’s Position: Zelensky, Fleitz explains, is seeking total Russian withdrawal and Western institutional integration, but these are unlikely outcomes.
  • “He’s going to lose part of his country, but he can’t be blaming Trump for this... Ukraine has to strike the best deal it can to save its country and to stop the killing.” (Fred Fleitz, 06:46)
• Challenges in Negotiations: Zelensky’s emotional and, at times, confrontational style is noted as a potential barrier, though Fleitz believes he’s learning to work with Trump instead of listening to partisan advice from Congress.
  • “I think he’s learned since then not to mess with Trump and not to listen to people who have their own agendas.” (Fred Fleitz, 08:22)

4. European Leaders: Reluctance and Realignment

• Reluctant Acceptance: European leaders are described as bowing to Trump’s leadership out of necessity rather than genuine enthusiasm.
  • “I think they’re giving in to him. I don’t think they like him... When you have a strong American president, none of them know what to do.” (Fred Fleitz, 09:33)
• Absence of Strong Leadership Abroad: Fleitz laments the lack of Churchill-like leaders in Europe and characterizes today’s as “liberal globalists” reacting to, rather than shaping, events.

5. Trump’s Broader Foreign Policy Impact

• Record of Peace Deals: Boothe highlights Trump’s role in various international peace agreements (Cambodia-Thailand, Rwanda-Congo, Abraham Accords, Armenia-Azerbaijan).
  • “It’s pretty remarkable the amount of peace agreements and ceasefires President Trump has been able to negotiate… Why do you think he’s able to reach these peace deals…?” (Lisa Boothe, 14:22)
• Recipe for Success: Fleitz attributes this to decisiveness and a break from the interventionist policies of prior presidents, making the US a more attractive broker.
  • “A strong American president, a decisive one, is essential, not just for American security, but for global security. And I also think success breeds success.” (Fred Fleitz, 14:57)
• Shift from ‘Nation Building’: Trump focuses on economic deals and mutual respect for different political systems—positioned as a repudiation of Bush/Obama-style interventions.
  • “Trump moved away from that, and that means he may be able to make deals with nations who before would not even meet with us.” (Fred Fleitz, 16:42)

6. The Roadblocks to a Ukraine-Russia Peace Accord

• The ‘Toughest Nut’: Fleitz and Boothe agree that the Ukraine conflict is Trump’s hardest foreign policy challenge, made more acute by past Western strategy.
  • “Biden’s strategy for Ukraine was to arm Ukraine for as long as it takes... He had no plan to end the war.” (Fred Fleitz, 17:54)
• Possible Terms: Fleitz foresees a possible land swap and mutually agreed security guarantees as part of any settlement.
  • “I suspect it may come down to Ukraine agreeing to some type of a land swap in exchange for a security guarantee arrangement with the Europeans.” (Fred Fleitz, 30:22)

7. Trump’s Foreign Policy Instincts and Decision-Making

• Advisors & Instincts: Trump consumes wide-ranging advice and information, but ultimately makes up his own mind, often contradicting even trusted advisors.

  • “He listens and talks to all kinds of people... And I also know that when he gets advice and recommendations he disagrees with, he’ll say to people, I think you’re wrong, and I’m not going to go that way.” (Fred Fleitz, 21:19)

• Economic Leverage: Lisa links Trump’s security guarantees to economic partnerships, both with Ukraine (mineral deals) and Russia.

  • “From President Trump’s perspective, it’s like us being involved in business in Ukraine and mineral mining, like that is a security guarantee.” (Lisa Boothe, 21:57)
  • “But the idea that Russia could become more prosperous with deals for the US… I think that really appeals to Putin.” (Fred Fleitz, 22:28)

8. Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On the Media’s Response:

  • “If Russia had surrendered the whole country to Ukraine, they’d still claim this was a failure for Trump.”
    — Fred Fleitz (03:06)

• On Trump’s Willingness to Walk Away:

  • “If he’s unhappy at any point or he feels like Putin’s kind of giving him the run around, he’s out, he’s willing to walk.”
    — Lisa Boothe (05:11)

• On the Nature of Negotiations:

  • “You may go into negotiations with one opening position. That may not be where you end up… whatever is being leaked about where Putin is, we really don’t know where he is, where he’ll end up.”
    — Fred Fleitz (30:22)

• On Advising Trump:

  • “He listens and talks to all kinds of people... but when he gets advice and recommendations he disagrees with, he’ll say to people, I think you’re wrong, and I’m not going to go that way.”
    — Fred Fleitz (21:19)

• On Global Perceptions of Trump:

  • “This is a businessman who looks at all the options, doesn’t let people talk him out of things that haven’t been tried before and is willing to try new things when what we’ve done in the past didn’t work.”
    — Fred Fleitz (28:35)

9. Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening and Overview: 01:44 – 02:48
• Alaska Summit Analysis: 02:49 – 05:43
• Trump’s Negotiation Approach: 05:43 – 06:46
• Ukraine & Zelensky’s Challenges: 06:46 – 09:09
• European Leaders’ Response: 09:09 – 10:14
• Trump’s Record of Global Peace Deals: 14:22 – 16:42
• Shift from Interventionism: 16:42 – 17:47
• Russia-Ukraine Peace Prospects: 17:47 – 19:34 and 30:22 – 31:16
• Decision-Making Insights: 21:19 – 22:28
• Closing Thoughts on Achievable Outcomes: 30:22 – 31:46

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Tone and Takeaways

The episode is assertive and unapologetically pro-Trump in tone, showcasing Trump’s willingness to break with diplomatic convention and style himself as a tough but creative deal-maker. Fred Fleitz’s insight as a former Trump national security official lends a behind-the-scenes perspective to evaluating strategy and anticipated outcomes. The conversation highlights the difficulties and trade-offs inherent to peacemaking in Ukraine, the limits and opportunities of economic diplomacy, and the changing attitudes (or resigned acceptance) of other world leaders toward a “strong American president.”

Overall, listeners are left with the message that, while the path to peace is uncertain and fraught with tough choices, Trump’s approach—combining direct engagement, adaptability, and transactional, commerce-linked diplomacy—represents a new paradigm with the potential to break the stalemate in Ukraine and beyond.

Transcript

[Lisa Booth]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Lisa Booth]

With Lisa Booth, where we try to get to the heart of the issues that matter to you. Today, we're talking all things foreign policy and trying to achieve peace throughout the world. We're honored to have Fred Flates, vice chair of the America First Policy Institute center for American Security and former chief of staff at the National Security Council under President Trump. Someone who understands President Trump's line of thinking when it comes to foreign policy. So we're going to discuss that pivotal Trump Putin meeting in Alaska. What does it mean? What are the implications for trying to resolve the Ukraine conflict? We'll also talk about the broader strategic dynamics shaping US Foreign policy. Why has President Trump been able to broker so many peace deals? What makes him so different than past presidents? We're going to dig into someone who knows, understands the man, and also understands the foreign policy implications of all of this. So stay tuned for Fred Flights. Well, Fred, it's great to have you on the show. It's been a while since we've caught up, so I appreciate you making the time.

[Fred Flates]

Good to be here.

[Lisa Booth]

So, looking at this summit in Alaska, I guess, sort of what are your, what's your broad takeaway? It's been criticized by the media, but obviously that doesn't always mean much because they don't get anything correct. But what are your takeaways from it?

[Fred Flates]

Well, President Trump is just so frustrated with the mainstream media. He tweeted a little while ago that if Russia had surrendered the whole country to Ukraine, they'd still claim this was a failure for Trump. And I think that that's exactly right. Whatever Trump does, they're against. And, you know, Europe loves to complain and criticize Trump for what he's doing, but there's no alternative. The only reason there's a peace plan or a peace process is because of Trump. Europeans didn't do this before he was elected. What happened in Alaska was that Trump went to Putin and he determined that he had enough progress to go to the next stage. And we know from history that peacemaking is hard, and coming up with agreements to stop wars usually takes painstaking negotiations. So there were some things agreed to, some weren't agreed to. Some were sensitive issues that Trump has to talk to the Europeans and Zelenskyy about. And the fact that there's a second stage and Trump's going to meet with Zelenskyy and the Europeans today, I think is very promising. The most important thing out of the summit was talk that there may be an agreement of security assurances that Russia may agree to that. Something that the Europeans and the US Might do to prevent Russia from invading again. If that's true, it could be a change to the whole scenario that might mean a long lasting peace agreement.

[Lisa Booth]

Do you think it was a positive meeting?

[Fred Flates]

Trump says it was a positive meeting. It was a 10 out of 10. And I think looking at what happened, it was probably the best we could get out of Putin. It's worth noting that our relations with Russia was very bad under Biden. Remember, Biden didn't speak to Putin after February 2022. He did nothing but demonize him. Biden once compared Putin to Hamas. And this is some of the baggage that Trump had to overcome to get a peace process started. So I think it was as positive as possible. There's a long way to go, but I think if Trump determined that Putin wasn't interested in negotiating good fate to end the war, he would have walked away.

[Lisa Booth]

I mean, he said that. You know, I remember in his interview with Bret Baer, he was saying that if, you know, if he's unhappy at any point or he feels like Putin's kind of giving him the run around, that he's out, he's willing to walk. And I believe that. I also just think it's a good thing. Look, President Trump has indicated or demonstrated even during his first term, he's always willing to talk, he's always willing to negotiate. And. And Putin, you know, obviously chose to do this under Biden. He wouldn't have done it under Trump. What do you think Putin wants from all this?

[Fred Flates]

Well, first of all, to that point, you know, people were saying this is a big win for Putin because he got a meeting with Trump. That's just wrong. American and Russian presidents should be meeting and talking all the time. The fact that Biden didn't do this made the world less safe. And as you said, Trump wants to speak to Putin. He wants to speak to Iran's leaders, to China's leaders. That's good statesmanship, that keeps the world more stable and secure. So whether there's a meeting, one succeeded or failed, I think Trump accomplished something. I think Putin is looking for a way out of the war. He would take as much Ukrainian territories as he could get away with, but he wants to avoid punishing sanctions from the United States. And I'm hoping he sees Trump as his one opportunity to end Russia's isolation and maybe strike deals that would make Russia more prosperous.

[Lisa Booth]

And Zelensky probably just wants Russia out of all of its territory, correct? They want, like, a complete withdrawal.

[Fred Flates]

Yeah, Zelensky wants that. He wants NATO membership, He wants EU membership. And I wish he could get these things, but. But they're not going to happen. And I think that Zelensky has to focus on what's possible. I understand this is really hard. He's going to lose part of his country, but he can't be blaming Trump for this. There was a time in 2022, in mid to the fall 2022, that if Biden and European leaders had sent Ukraine the weapons they needed, they could have pushed the Russians back. They didn't do that. Now the Russians are dug in and they're advancing. Ukraine's running out of troops. Ukraine has to strike the best deal it can to save its country and to stop the killing.

[Lisa Booth]

I guess the challenge is, you know, we saw recently in the Oval Office that spat between Zelensky and President Trump and J.D. vance. And then, you know, Zelinsky was essentially kicked out of the White House, you know, like, and, you know, this very public spat. I mean, I mean, I think the challenge to me seems to, like, can Zelensky look at this in a clear eyed way? He just, he just seems like he's very emotionally charged in the way he conducts business, which is challenging when you're trying to get someone to reason with someone and to get them to see things. Because ultimately, as you pointed out, Zelensky is probably going to have to give up some of Ukraine. But it just doesn't. It seems like he sort of behaves a little bit belligerently. Is that a fair assessment or how much of a challenge do you think Zelensky is going to be and trying to get him on board with any sort of peace agreement?

[Fred Flates]

I don't think we're going to see the same blow up in the Oval Office that we saw last time. But let's talk about what happened there. Zelensky was arguing with Trump before the meeting. During the meeting, he was rolling his eyes, acting very disrespectful for Trump. But what people don't realize is that Zelensky was told to resist, not just by the Europeans, but by Democratic members of Congress. Zelensky was given bad advice, and I think he paid a price for that. It set back peace efforts. I think he's learned since then not to mess with Trump and not to listen to people who have their own agendas. I mean, the Democrats just want Trump to fail. And they're meeting with Zelensky all the time. They're telling him all kinds of stuff that's not going to end the war. I think Zelinsky realizes Trump's the only one who can end this war. He may not like that, but he has to deal with Trump.

[Lisa Booth]

Is it fair to say the Europeans are sort of warming to President Trump or sort of like listening to him? You know, you had the NATO chief, I think it was like a month ago, call him dad and like, you know, like, try to, like, lay on the charm. Is it fair to say that, you know, Europeans are kind of, I guess, looking up to him more at this point than maybe right when he took office?

[Fred Flates]

I think they're giving into him. I don't think they're warring to him. I don't think they like him. I think most European leaders don't have a spine. They're, they're very brave when they're on their own and when they speak to the news media and when they leak. But when you have a strong American president, none of them know what to do. And that's why you keep seeing these European leaders coming to the White House trying to brown nose and to get on Trump's good side. You know the kind of leaders we saw World War II, Winston Churchill. There's no Winston Churchill in Europe right now. Certainly we don't have one in the UK or in France or in Germany. They are liberal globalists. They're trying to deal with Trump. They're not sure how to do that, but frankly, they're afraid of it.

[Lisa Booth]

Got to take a quick commercial break. More with Fred on the other side.

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[Lisa Booth]

Well, it's pretty remarkable the amount of peace agreements and ceasefires that President Trump has been able to negotiate with. I think Cambodia. Cambodia submitted a Nobel Peace Prize for President Trump with Cambodia and Thailand. And then you've got Rwanda and Congo. You know, I mean, the list goes on. And then during the first administration, you had the Abraham Accords. Why. Why do you think he's able to reach these peace deals more broadly, I guess we'll call them, when other presidents were unable to do so.

[Fred Flates]

A strong American president, a decisive one, is essential, not just for American security, but for global security. And I also think success breeds success. And these nations are turning to Trump to resolve these crises. You know, the Cambodia, Thailand one is interesting because, you know, in an earlier era, they may have went to China to resolve that, but they didn't. They went to Trump. I think that's very interesting. And this Azerbaijan, Armenia dispute, this is something that before the war in Ukraine, Russia would have adjudicated. But in this instance, Trump adjudicated a peace settlement in Putin's backyard. I think the idea that we have a decisive and strong American president is good for global order. It's leading states to come to him to make deals, and it's obviously good for our country, too.

[Lisa Booth]

What's interesting, too, if you just kind of like watching his moves, as you have been doing, of just sort of setting up American strength, like going to the Middle east and striking those deals and talking about how, like, the future of the Middle east is commerce, not chaos. And. And then Even with this EU deal, the $750 billion in energy purchased from the United States, trying to get Europe to turn to us and to be dependent on our oil as opposed to Russia, but just sort of like these different moves to just try to, like, weaken China, to weaken Russia and to put America back as, you know, the world's leading superpower, kind of walk us down some of the. Or walk us through some of those steps that you have seen in his efforts to try to, you know, isolate some of our enemies like China and Russia and Iran and to strengthen the United States positioning power.

[Fred Flates]

I would point to this critical speech that Trump made in Saudi Arabia that you were referring to, in which he said he wants peace through strength and commerce. Make a deal with us and we'll all be rich. We'll all get rich. But he also said he does not want America to have permanent enemies. He does not want to engage in nation building or meddling in other systems that will respect other systems that we disagree with, that we will not try to foist our system, our values on other societies. This is huge. It is a real repudiation of John Bolton and George W. Bush and tons of Democratic presidents who thought we should be deploying US Troops to promote democratization and regime change. Trump moved away from that, and that means he may be able to make deals with nations who before would not even meet with us. That's why I think we could make a deal with Iran. We may be able to deal with China. That's why other nations, I think, are saying, we think Trump's going to be a fair interlocutor. Let's see if he can resolve our dispute.

[Lisa Booth]

Do you think the toughest nut for him to crack is probably with Russia and Ukraine?

[Fred Flates]

I do, because this conflict is in such a. It has deteriorated so badly, and it was made so much worse by the incompetent Biden administration and European strategy. Remember, Biden's strategy for Ukraine was to arm Ukraine for as long as it takes. He had no plan to end the war. He never called for talks to end it. He never called for a ceasefire. There was basically no strategy. We were just going to dump weapons on Ukraine for the rest of time, which, as you and I know, the Republican Congress, the House, at least, was not going to approve this much longer. So this was a strategy that was not going to work. But Biden didn't try anything else, and neither did the Europeans that caused this dispute to get worse and worse and worse. So, look, Trump has his whole national security team on the field working on this. And, you know, frankly, Putin disrespected Trump by not dealing with him earlier in good faith, by ignoring these efforts by his staff. That's why Trump proposes very tough sanctions to send weapons to Ukraine through NATO. I think that's how we got to the Alaska summit. But it is a difficult nut to crack.

[Lisa Booth]

And we've seen his posture with Putin, you know, toughen up. I mean, he's always been tough on him. Like, even if you look at the first administration, he's. He's never been afraid to, you know, hold Putin's feet to the fire and to stand up to him. But it does seem like the posture has changed a little bit. Where, you know, before he was kind of like, maybe a little bit more open to stuff, and then now he's kind of brought the hammer down a little bit, it would seem. Do you agree with that? And then also, why do you think that is? What's behind that?

[Fred Flates]

Well, previously, Trump tried to deal with Putin cordially as a fellow head of state, and that's what he was trying to work on through his diplomats, especially Witkoff. And then there were a lot of phone calls between Putin and Trump, but Putin basically was pushing Trump down the road. I forget the term that Trump used. And accelerating the war, despite Trump's efforts to end it. So Trump surprised everyone by changing tactics when he started criticizing Putin, announced that he would send weapons to Ukraine through NATO, and announced he would put these tough energy sanctions in place. No one would have predicted that. A few months ago, everyone thought that Trump was only going to engage in diplomacy with Putin. He wasn't going to start these efforts to punish Russia. But I think that, look, this is the mark of a good leader. When your policies aren't working, you have to change those policies. You have to be flexible. And I think Trump showed that with, with Putin, and frankly, he showed it with Iran when he surprised everyone when he bombed these Iranian nuclear sites, something that I don't think anyone thought Trump would ever do.

[Lisa Booth]

Well, that's like, I mean, how much do you think he, because, I mean, you've worked for President Trump. You were former National Security Council chief of staff under him. How much of his decisions, like, he just seems like he has really incredible instincts when it comes to all this stuff. How much of these decisions is like listening to the people around him, like, sort of giving advice versus him just saying, you know what? No, it's time to bomb Iran. Like, we need to send this message. This is what's going to get us closer to peace than sanctions or any sort of other kind of diplomacy.

[Fred Flates]

Lisa, he listens and talks to all kinds of people. I'm sure he listens to you. I'm sure he watches you very, very closely when you're on tv.

[Lisa Booth]

Well, we're in trouble, Fred. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

[Fred Flates]

I mean, he watches Fox, so I know he's, I'm joking, I'm joking, listening to you. And, and, and look, people don't realize he's also a voracious reader. And I, I, he reads mature from lots of people. He reads some of the stuff that I write. And he uses his material to make up his mind. There's certain advisors who he trusts more than others that gives him key advice. And I also know that when he gets advice and recommendations he disagrees with, he'll say to people, I think you're wrong, and I'm not going to go that way.

[Lisa Booth]

I mean, I think he's brilliant, but even, like, you know, for instance, we're talking about the Saudi Arabia speech for the future of the Middle east is commerce, not chaos. Or even with the minerals deal in Ukraine. Like, he ties foreign policy to economic deals. And, you know, because you could kind of see his line of thinking with Zelensky feeling like he wasn't getting security guarantees. But from President Trump's perspective, it's like us being involved in business in Ukraine and mineral mining, like that is a security guarantee.

[Fred Flates]

That's what the Trump administration has been arguing. But I think this is even more important for Putin. I don't think Putin's just going to make compromises to end the war without some type of incentive. But the idea that Russia could become more prosperous with deals for the US and there may be new Russia America partnerships to deal with global problems to make Russia a great power again, I think that really appeals to Putin. And you know, the optics of Putin riding in the limo, which Trump calls the beast in Alaska, you know, the media laughed at that, but that was an important symbol of how Trump is trying to bring Putin back as someone who's at least friendly to the US Right now, frankly, Russia's an enemy and this really is a dangerous situation. Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal on Earth. That's a bigger threat to us than Ukraine ever will be.

[Lisa Booth]

Going to take a quick commercial break. If you like what you're hearing, please share on social media or maybe send it to some friends.

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[Lisa Booth]

Care of the rest.

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[Lisa Booth]

Well, also just seems like President Trump sees things more clear eyed than, you know, past presidents and also just has like, I mean, he's really great political instincts in terms of obviously, you know, the McDonald's thing or the, you know, getting dressed up for trash truck in Wisconsin. You know, like he just. But he has great political instincts or great, you know, foreign policy instincts as well. It would seem. Like I remember during the first administration, the summit with North Korea and there was like this video, I don't know if you remember this, the video that he showed Kim Jong Un and it was like, you know what, it was like you have two paths, right? Like it's like you could peace and prosperity. And it's like everyone like loving life and making money and you know, and then the next is like bombs and like we're gonna crush you, you know, and it's like, it's just. But I just like he's smart and sort of knowing, understanding and I don't know if it's all just the years of business, right, but he just seems to be able to understand different world leaders and like what it takes to move the needle with each one. And what do you think about that?

[Fred Flates]

I think that's right. And he doesn't care about the conventional wisdom on how to do things or the usual way of doing things. Basically, all the foreign policy experts thought meeting Kim Jong Un was a mistake. You're rewarding the North Korean dictator with, with a presidential summit. But that meeting stopped North Korean missile tests for 18 months. They didn't test any long range missiles until, until after the disastrous US Withdrawal from Afghanistan. There hasn't been a nuclear test since September 2017. And I think that's because of Trump. I think the North Koreans thought about it during the Biden years. I think they came close. But I think that suspension in those tests, which is crucial to slowing North Korea's nuclear program, they have to test to prove that their weapons work was important. So I mean, this is a businessman who looks at all the options, doesn't let people talk them out of things that haven't been tried before and is willing to try new things when what we've done in the past didn't work.

[Lisa Booth]

No, I thought that was brilliant. Well, you're right because I remember after the summit, like, it seemed like, you know, because there was all the, you know, rocket man and sort of like this heightened escalation between the two countries. And then after that, it kind of seemed like we stopped hearing about, you know, North Korea and, you know, stopped kind of hearing the threats. So, before we go, what do you think? What is achievable, I guess, in trying to bring either a ceasefire or some sort of peace agreement or, like, whatever it's called, whatever it looks like, what do you think is actually achievable between that the two leaders of, you know, Putin and. Or of Russia and Ukraine can go back home and sell it to their people that Trump's gonna be happy with, like, what is actually achievable here?

[Fred Flates]

Well, there's a lot of unknowns despite all these leaks. And I think, as I said earlier, you may go into negotiations with one opening position. That may not be where you end up. So whatever is being leaked about where Putin is, we really don't know where he is, where he'll end up. But I suspect it may come down to Ukraine agreeing to some type of a land swap in exchange for a security guarantee arrangement with the Europeans. Getting Russia to agree to that would be a huge breakthrough, which no one talked about before. Alaska, that's actually on the table. We could have the makings of a pretty substantial agreement to end this war. But whether we're going to get Putin there, whether he'll really agree to that, I think that's going to be hard. But those are the kind of proposals that I think could lead to an agreement both sides could live with.

[Lisa Booth]

Fred Flates, I'm not feeling so great, so I'm a little out of it, but thank God you're not. You're feeling great and you're sharp. Thanks for carrying the conversation today. I really appreciate you making the time and interesting stuff. And look, hopefully something's reached, because it's just. It's better for us, it's better for them, and it's just. It's better for, you know, global peace and security, so. And if anyone's going to do it, it's. It's President Trump. So appreciate you making the time, my friend.

[Fred Flates]

Good to be here. Feel better.

[Lisa Booth]

Thanks. Take care. Those Fred Flates, vice chair of the America First Policy Institute center for American Security. We appreciate him for coming on the show. Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, but you can listen throughout the week. I also want to thank John Casio, my producer, for putting the show show together. Until next time.

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[Fred Flates]

Come on.

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Why is this taking so long?

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[Fred Flates]

Cool.

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[Lisa Booth]

Avocado Dream of Better this is an I Heart podcast.