The Truth with Lisa Boothe: China’s Show of Force: Gordon Chang on Beijing’s Military Parade, Axis with Russia & North Korea, and Why America Must Wake Up

Summary

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The Truth with Lisa Boothe: China’s Show of Force — Gordon Chang on Beijing’s Military Parade, Axis with Russia & North Korea, and Why America Must Wake Up

Date: September 4, 2025
Podcast: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show / The Truth with Lisa Boothe
Guest: Gordon Chang (Expert on US-China Relations)
Host: Lisa Boothe

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Lisa Boothe dives deep into recent global security tensions in light of Beijing's grand 80th-anniversary military parade, which prominently featured leaders from China, Russia, and North Korea. Gordon Chang, a renowned China expert, joins to analyze the parade’s messaging, the realities behind China’s military posturing, the strategic axis forming among China, Russia, and North Korea, and what it all means for America. The conversation also explores instability within the Chinese military, US foreign policy responses (particularly by the Trump administration), and the evolving dynamics on the Korean peninsula.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Significance of Beijing’s Military Parade

• Chinese Audience Comes First:
  • Chang argues that the parade was largely aimed at the Chinese population—to demonstrate the Communist Party’s power and legitimacy.
    • “The most important audience for him was not us, it was the Chinese people because he wants to show them the Communist Party is capable.” (Gordon Chang, 04:30)
• Global Intimidation & Information Warfare:
  • The secondary purpose was international intimidation, projecting China as dominant and the US as ‘finished.’
    • “Xi Jinping wanted to intimidate the world ... promoting the narrative that China is, is the dominant power and that the United States is finished.” (Gordon Chang, 04:30)
• Historical Parallels:
  • Chang references Sun Tzu’s idea of “appearing strong” even when concealing weaknesses, noting the event was overcompensating for internal troubles.

2. Behind the Facade: Chinese Military Instability

• Internal Infighting and Purges:
  • Significant instability at the top ranks, with mysterious disappearances and executions of flag officers, signal Xi Jinping’s loss of control.
    • “For the last two years, we have seen the disappearances of scores of flag officers... signs that Xi Jinping has lost control of the Chinese military.” (Gordon Chang, 06:03)
• Structural Issues:
  • The two reporting lines—military and political—with greater emphasis on political loyalty are described as undermining war-fighting effectiveness.
    • “That’s no way to run a war.” (Gordon Chang, 06:03)
• Historical Case:
  • June 2020’s Galwan Valley clash with India is cited as evidence of failed Chinese military leadership.

3. Xi Jinping’s Leadership & Analogies to Mao

• Alienation Through Power Grabs:
  • Xi’s consolidations of power and officer purges have generated resentment; PLA Daily’s articles on "collective leadership" are a veiled rebuke of Xi’s style.
• Fears of Maoist-Style Disasters:
  • Comparisons drawn to the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, with concerns about similar disasters under Xi’s command.
    • “People have compared Xi to Mao Zedong ... and worrying about disasters that might befall China because of this Mao-type leadership.” (Gordon Chang, 08:00)

4. American Responses: Should Disunity Be Exploited?

• Limited US Awareness:
  • Suggests the Trump administration is aware of China’s internal fragility but tends to favor engagement—a pattern that he sees as historically flawed.
    • “We have to understand that the Communist Party inherently hates the United States ... I don't think we will ever have amicable relations with China as long as it's ruled by the Communist Party.” (Gordon Chang, 10:05)
• Democracies’ Dilemma:
  • Democracies, by nature, are slow to react to threats unless directly attacked (“only when our enemies kill a lot of us do we ... protect ourselves”). (Gordon Chang, 15:33)

5. Rhetoric vs. Action: Trump’s Approach to Adversaries

• Mixed Messaging:
  • While President Trump might offer diplomatic niceties or olive branches, his policies (sanctions, warnings) can be tougher than they appear.
• Underestimating China:
  • Chang believes Trump thinks he can “manage” China—a potentially risky outlook compared to Reagan’s approach to the Soviet Union.
    • “Trump understands that China is dangerous. But I believe that the president thinks that he can manage China, and I don't think he sees China in the same terms as Reagan saw the Soviet Union.” (Gordon Chang, 17:25)

6. Real Threat Level: The “Axis” of China, Russia & North Korea

• Collectively Weak, But Unpredictable:
  • Chang argues each state is internally weak and facing major issues:
    • Russia: Stretched by Ukraine war, facing future instability.
    • China: Economic problems, simultaneous crises, political gridlock.
    • North Korea: Isolated but comparatively more stable within its own terms.
    • “These are three weak states, and they've all got different problems.” (Gordon Chang, 20:17)
• Parade Weaponry: Hype vs. Reality:
  • China’s display of hypersonic missiles, drones, and new ballistic missiles presents a serious potential threat—especially given uncertainties about deployment and US countermeasures.
    • “Their hypersonic cruise missiles ... we may not have a defense for them, which means we may not have much of a navy.” (Gordon Chang, 21:51)
  • Drones signal a shift in warfare, learned from observing Ukraine.

7. Korean Peninsula & South Korea’s Political Shift

• US-South Korea Relations on Edge:
  • South Korea’s new president, Lee Jimmy, described as leftist or possibly even communist, is viewed as distinctly anti-US—a shift that worries Washington.
    • “If he could do what he wanted to do, he would break the treaty with us and he would turn it into a leftist totalitarian state within a month.” (Gordon Chang, 24:15)
• Trump’s Strategy:
  • Advocates for binding South Korea through trade and investment agreements to prevent a rupture.
• Political Repression:
  • Highlights the jailing and harsh treatment of the previous South Korean president as evidence of “monstrous” tactics by leftist leadership.

8. Trade, Tariffs, and US Leverage

• Current Trade Pause:
  • There’s a 90-day pause on enhanced US tariffs on China, expiring soon. Chang foresees China stalling rather than yielding in negotiations.
• Tariff Inequities & India’s Frustration:
  • Notes US imposed tariffs on India for buying Russian oil, while letting China slide despite bigger purchases—a double standard that strains alliances.
    • “This is one of the reasons why the Chinese think that they own President Trump because they're saying that we are afraid of imposing that 25% tariff on China because China is so magnificent and we're so weak.” (Gordon Chang, 28:10)
• Call for Tougher Measures:
  • Urges the US to match tariffs it used on India for China as well, arguing current leniency emboldens Chinese aggression.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Chinese Military Propaganda:
  • “One of [Sun Tzu’s] more famous comments is ... when we appear strong. And that’s what we have been seeing, especially over the last three or four weeks.” (Gordon Chang, 04:30)
• On Military Infighting:
  • “With all of this infighting, with these generals disappearing each other, I think that they’re much more concerned about the guy in the next store than they are about the United States or the Philippines or Taiwan, whatever.” (Gordon Chang, 06:03)
  • “Reminds me of that other great strategist, Mike Tyson—‘everybody has a plan until they're punched in the face.’” (Gordon Chang, 06:03)
• On US-China Relations:
  • “We have to understand that the Communist Party inherently hates the United States ... as much or even a greater threat than the Soviet Communist Party was.” (Gordon Chang, 10:05)
  • “Only when our enemies kill a lot of us do we ... start to become determined to protect ourselves.” (Gordon Chang, 15:33)
• On the Axis’ Weakness:
  • “These are three weak states, and they've all got different problems.” (Gordon Chang, 20:17)
• On Tariff Policy:
  • “President Trump needs to impose that 25% tariff on China because if he doesn’t, the Chinese are going to be more bold and they’re going to be more aggressive, and life is going to become more difficult for us.” (Gordon Chang, 28:10)

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Important Timestamps

• [03:13] Introduction & Episode Context
• [04:30] Gordon Chang on the Purpose of the Parade
• [06:03] Chinese Military Infighting and Weakness
• [08:00] Xi Jinping’s Power Grabs and Comparison to Mao
• [10:05] Should the US Exploit Chinese Disunity?
• [15:33] Are Americans Underestimating the Threat?
• [17:25] Trump’s Worldview and Historical Analogies
• [20:17] Weaknesses of China, Russia, and North Korea
• [21:51] Technological Threats: Missiles and Drones
• [24:15] South Korea’s New President and US Policy
• [27:09] Political Repression in South Korea
• [28:10] Tariffs, Trade Strategy, and Global Leverage
• [30:13] Concluding Reflections on Leadership Styles
• [30:48] Closing Thanks

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Summary Takeaway

Gordon Chang warns that beneath China’s display of military strength lies significant internal discord, with Xi Jinping’s power grabs fueling instability in the armed forces and the broader party. The new axis with Russia and North Korea is formidable more in potential than substance; all three countries are wrestling with major vulnerabilities. Still, he urges the US—and its leaders—not to underestimate the long-term threat posed by a belligerent China and to adopt stronger, clearer measures, particularly on trade policy and diplomatic leverage, or risk being outmaneuvered at a critical juncture in global affairs.

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Transcript

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[Lisa Booth]

Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth where we get to the heart of the issues that matter to you. Today we're unpacking that massive military parade in Beijing. It was the 80th anniversary military parade where President Xi Jinping was. Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un flex their alliance, sparking Trump's accusations of a conspiracy against the United States. So what does this mean for America's stance against China? Joining us for all of this and more is Gordon Chang. You know him, he's a leading expert on US China relations and he'll let us know what we should really believe. Stay tuned for Gordon Chang. Well, Gordon, it's great to have you back on the program. You know, always the go to on China related matters. So appreciate you for making the time.

[Gordon Chang]

Well, thank you, Lisa. I appreciate it.

[Lisa Booth]

Gordon, I wanted to ask you, we saw recently this military parade in Beijing with the leaders of North Korea, China and Russia all together. What did you think when you saw this? What's the significance of it? Is there significance to it? Kind of walk us through your line of thinking on this.

[Gordon Chang]

Xi Jinping was engaged in information warfare. The most important audience for him was not us, it was the Chinese people because he wants to show them the Communist Party is capable. It is the one responsible for the rejuvenation of the great Chinese nation, as he puts it. But we were the secondary audience because Xi Jinping wanted to intimidate the world. He wants to promote the narrative that China is, is the dominant power and that the United States is finished. And so we had this grand parade. You know, when I saw the parade, I was thinking of the Chinese military strategist from ancient times, Sun Tzu. And one of his more famous comments is, quote, when we appear strong. And that's what we have been seeing, especially over the last three or four weeks. There's been an extraordinary amount of Chinese propaganda, state media, Communist Party media and their informal media promoting this. All these weapons that we were going to see in the parade and how strong China is and how, how much the United States has been like a finished power. So it got a little bit too much. And I think really what they are doing right now is trying to hover over some big Weaknesses, because for all of its weapons, I don't think the Chinese military is an effective fighting force.

[Lisa Booth]

Okay, so that's important. Why don't you think they're an effective fighting force right now? What's behind the weakness they are suggesting?

[Gordon Chang]

The most important thing is the infighting at the top of the Chinese military. For the last two years, we have seen the disappearances of scores of flag officers. It's reported that two of them actually were executed in May, although we don't know that for sure. But what we are seeing are signs that Xi Jinping has lost control of the Chinese military. And we also have seen signs that he's lost some influence among civilian leaders, although the objective evidence for that is not as clear as what we witnessing in the military. So with all of this infighting, with these generals disappearing each other, I think that they're much more concerned about the guy in the next store than they are about the United States or the Philippines or Taiwan, whatever. Got to remember, this is a Chinese. This is a communist military, which means it's got two reporting lines, one military and one political. And the political line is more important than the military one. And that's no way to run a war. So I think that, for instance, if China were to attack some neighbor, you know, they would do very well for the first week because they would be just following the plan. But once they were counterpunched, I think they have a hard time at it. And this reminds me of that other great strategist, Mike Tyson, who said everybody has a plan until they're punched in the face. And I think the Chinese military would have a hard time doing that. And we've seen some evidence of failure of officer leadership of the Chinese military, especially in June 2020 in Galwan, when the Chinese launched a surprise attack against Indian forces, the Indians, although they were taken by surprise, got the better of the Chinese. And that's a real failure of the army leadership.

[Lisa Booth]

So what do you think has led to this discord and this disunity in leadership then?

[Gordon Chang]

Well, dissatisfaction with Xi Jinping. Now, Xi Jinping has been able to reshape the Chinese military, especially with the restructuring in the middle of last decade, which was very successful. But he has purged a lot of officers, and that's created, of course, animosity among people who are friendly with the purged officers. And also I think that there is a natural reaction to Xi Jinping's grab for power. So, for instance, since July 9th of last year in PLA Daily, which is the Chinese military's main propaganda organization. There have been these series of articles that have been praising, quote, unquote, collective leadership. That's a direct slap at Xi Jinping's demand for complete obedience. And as Xi has grabbed more power, he's offended more people. And eventually there was a tipping point. And this is, I think now we're seeing the results of that. Also, Xi Jinping's policies have not been very successful recently, and we have seen so many crises and crises in China, and those are being chalked up to the failure of Xi Jinping's leadership. So there's this natural reaction of people saying, look, we can't continue on this path. And people have compared Xi to Mao Zedong, who was responsible for two great disasters in Communist Party history. One of them was the Great Leap Forward at the end of the 1950s and the beginning of the 1960s and. And the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, which started in 1966 and lasted for a decade. And I think people are starting to compare seed to Mao and worrying about disasters that might befall China because of this Mao type leadership.

[Lisa Booth]

Do you think, is the Trump administration sort of aware of this disunity? Do you think, should we exploit it? Or I guess what should we do from the US Perspective on that?

[Gordon Chang]

That's a really important question you asked. And I think that the Trump administration is aware of it. We get hints of this, only hints, but we get hints from President Trump's comments about the fragility of the Chinese system, which he has said about two or three times now. I think we should exploit it. And this is a very involved conversation because our natural instincts as Americans is to offer an olive branch, which President Trump has done to Xi Jinping. But the Communist Party, and we've rescued the Communist Party at least three times, and that has not been good for the United States in at least two of those instances. So I think that we have to understand that the Communist Party inherently hates the United States. They believe that they are in an existential struggle with us, and therefore, I don't think we will ever have amicable relations with China as long as it's ruled by the Communist Party. So as much as we would like to have great relationships with the Chinese people, we can't do that right now. And we have to understand that the Communist Party is as much or even a greater threat than the Soviet Communist Party was.

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[Christina Quinn]

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[Lisa Booth]

Do you think the Trump administration sees that in China, sees, sees China as enough of a threat?

[Gordon Chang]

No, I don't think so. I mean, we haven't heard that or any hint of that from any comment from any senior administration official. And it's a, it's a hard thing for Americans to do because we always want to think the best of it, people. And we, we are determined to ignore what our enemies say. For instance, we ignored Osama bin Laden. We even ignored him after he killed six Americans at the 1993 bombing of the North Tower, the World Trade Center. So, and this is not just a fault of America, this is the fault of democracies in general. Tocqueville talked about this in the 19th century. So we've got a problem because as a democracy, we are not taking those measures that are necessary to protect our republic from unrelenting and malicious attacks from the Chinese regime. And as history has shown us, only when our enemies kill a lot of us do we then start to become determined to protect ourselves.

[Lisa Booth]

But now, is that just in rhetoric or an action too? Because sometimes what we've seen from President Trump is, you know, he'll speak, you know, he'll say nice things about Putin, but then when you look at the actions, he's been much tougher on Putin than, you know, Biden or Obama and, like, placing sanctions or, you know, for instance, he'll say niceties about Kim Jong Un, but then, you know, he shows him a video during their summit where, like, you know, you've got two choices. It's either peace or we're gonna bomb the crap out of you and, like, basically destroy, you know, like. So is it. Is this just in rhetoric or in. His actions are looking different. Right. Cause sometimes we. We see President Trump, you know, kind of try to, you know, lay on sort of the niceties and play nice, but then, you know, they know he's being serious behind the scenes.

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah. There's only one person who can answer that question. My guess, and it's only a guess from someone who, you know, looks at this from a distance, is that Trump understands that China is dangerous. But I believe that the president thinks that he can manage China, and I don't think he sees China in the same terms as Reagan saw the Soviet Union. Now, I think that eventually the Chinese will go too far and force President Trump to take a more realistic view of China. But remember, Trump is a president in a democratic society, and most Americans right now, they understand the danger of China, but they don't have such a dark view of the Chinese regime as, for instance, I do.

[Lisa Booth]

President Trump's accused them of conspiring against the United States. I may assume they are right.

[Gordon Chang]

They definitely are. And it was very, very good for President Trump to say that because he was putting Xi Jinping on notice, that he knows what these guys are up to. And also the other message is that Trump is saying, I'm not afraid of you. And this is important because the Chinese narrative right now, which Xi Jinping, they talked to visiting Americans, they talked to everybody saying that the US Is finished. And so it's important for President Trump to disabuse them of that. And right now, although I think the Chinese narrative is absurd because I don't believe that China is nearly as powerful as the United States. Nonetheless, my view is a very, very small minority one, because a lot of people do believe that Xi Jinping is basically got the truth, and a lot of Americans think that too, Lisa, which is a really, really dangerous thing. So I believe that President Trump needs to reach out, do something to show the Chinese who's boss. We absolutely need to do this. This is not something that president of a democratic state is going to. It's not going to be popular. But if we don't do this, we are in for a world of hurt because the Chinese are going to continue extremely belligerent actions against us.

[Lisa Booth]

But how strong are these three countries together? Because you just highlighted some weaknesses within China. North Korea is poor and isolated, and then Russia has faced a lot of sanctions and financial pain as a result of that. And then also it's bleeding its people and its military dry with this war against Ukraine. So, collectively, how strong really are these three nations?

[Gordon Chang]

These are three weak states, and they've all got different problems. Russia, of course, has shown that it is not as strong as people just assumed. And, you know, the Ukraine war is still going on, and people are talking about real problems for Russia a year down the road. China, I believe, has got an economy which is. If it's not contracting now, it will be contracting soon, and Xi Jinping has no solution for it within the confines of his political thought. China's facing so many simultaneous crises, I think the country's in real trouble, which is the reason why we saw this big parade, the largest military parade in the history of Communist China. Kim Jong Un leads, I think, the most secure of the three countries because he's isolated North Korea from the rest of the world, and he actually had a very good 2024, as we can see from a number of objective criteria. That's not to say that South North Korea is a strong state, but I think it's in a pretty good position when you compare it to the other two.

[Lisa Booth]

Now, China, you know, paraded some weaponry. Weaponry like, you know, hypersonic missiles, you know, kind of like assessing their military advancements on display during the parade. You know, how much of a threat does that pose to the United States? Should we be concerned by what we saw during. At the parade?

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah, those weapons, if they are deployed and worked, some of them are quite actually fearsome. Like they're hypersonic cruise missiles, and they're better than what we've got from what we think, although it's hard to speak with any sense of assurance, because we don't know if these weapons, in fact, have been deployed, and we don't know how well they work, and we don't know how well our countermeasures will work. But, yes, they've got some. And you. You put your finger on the one which worries me the most. They're hypersonic cruise missiles because we may not have a defense for them, which means we may not have much of a navy, which is an important point that the Chinese are making. The, you know, we know that they've got long range ballistic missiles. We saw a new one on a 16 wheeled transporter erector launcher. That's the DF61. We saw the new DF5C, the JL3 and then a DF31. So, yeah, these are fearsome weapons, but we've all known that they've had them for quite some time. The drones, I think, were really interesting because they are new types of weapons. One thing about the Ukraine battlefield is told everybody, shown everybody that the future of warfare is very different than what we thought five years ago. So the drones are really an important thing for us to look at. And China showed off a lot of them on the third. So this is, this is, this is a big military. It has got some pretty good weapons, but it's got some internal problems that I think make it less fearsome than it appears.

[Lisa Booth]

You know, South Korea is going through a lot of political turmoil. President Trump recently met with the relatively new president of South Korea. Obviously, South Korea is important to us with its proximity to North Korea and then also to China. Um, what do you make of the recent bilateral meeting between the United States and South Korea? And kind of like, how does this new president change the dynamic that, you know, sort of geopolitical dynamics at play? Or does. Does he?

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah. President Trump met Lee Jimmy in the Oval Office. This was perhaps the most important meeting between American and South Korean presidents. He is a leftist. He might even be a communist that we don't know, but he's certainly a determined leftist. And we know that he hates the United States. And we know this because of comments that he has made in the past. We Americans have survived three previous leftist presidents in South Korea. And I think there's a feeling in Washington, in the State Department, maybe even the White House, that we can sort of survive Yi, which may be true, but it also might not be because Yi is much more ruthless than three previous leftists. And Yi is in office at a time when China is more aggressive. So it is not inconceivable that within six months people understand that South Korea is a leftist dictatorship. It could even be the world's next communist state, which is not inconceivable. Certainly it could become the next Venezuela. And we had a problem because we have a treaty to protect what could become a state which is inimical, inimical to our interests. I think President Trump's handling of Yi was masterful. What he's doing is he's binding Yi with trade and investment agreements and if we get through a Yi presidency, and that's a big if, Lisa, it'll be because of the trade and investment agreements that we're putting in place. So this is going to be a very difficult time for us now. A lot of people in South Korea don't like what he is doing. And if, you know, it's not like he can do. If he wanted to do what he wanted, if he could do what he wanted to do, he would break the treaty with us and he would turn it into a leftist totalitarian state within a month. But there's a lot of people in South Korea who don't want him to do that. And so this is going to be a big contest. And I hope the Trump administration is fully alive to this. I think they are because we saw President Trump's truth social posting before he showed up in the Oval Office indicated that Trump was aware of.

[Lisa Booth]

Yeah, that was sort of kind of an interesting. Right before he came to kind of putting in him on notice a little bit.

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah. And Trump, you know, just sort of let him have face, which was good. But this is a struggle. This is a bigger struggle than Trump had with Moon Jae in the last of those three leftist presidents because Moon was in office when Trump was in office and Moon went out of his way to disrespect President Trump. And this was, this was really awful.

[Lisa Booth]

You know, because if memory serves me correct, the the previous president is currently jailed.

[Gordon Chang]

That's right. And was impeached. He was removed by the Constitutional Court. He is now being charged with insurrection. He is being held in inhumane conditions, denied medication, humiliated in public with the unauthorized release of footage. His wife has been charged. She, I think fainted in custody three or four days ago. And this is just shows you the monstrous nature of.

[Lisa Booth]

And then before we go, you know, where does everything stand with, you know, tariffs and trying to reach a trade deal with China? I know that trade between India, China and Russia has increased. You know, sort of, kind of. Where does this all stand with this trade and tariff face off with China?

[Gordon Chang]

We have a 90 day pause in the enhanced tariffs which expires November 9, I believe. I think the Chinese are going to stall for more time because I'm not so sure that they, the regime is in a position to make compromises right now. The Chinese have used their card, played their cards by trying to withhold rare earths and magnets to the United States. President Trump has not really played his cards. You know, we talk about the generosity of the president and sort of offering an off ramp to Xi Jinping. Xi is not really reciprocating. Eventually, President Trump has got to do something. And here, if I may, one reason why India, which is natural partner of the United States, is really pissed at us is because on August 6, we announced additional 25% tariff on Indian goods because India was buying Russian crude oil. And the Indians say that that was unjustified. Well, no, it wasn't. It was certainly justified. But the Indians have a point because they say that it was unfair, and it was deeply unfair because the United States did not impose a 25% tariff on China for buying Russian oil, and China was buying more Russian oil than the Indians. And matter of fact, since August 6, India has been reducing its purchases of Russian crude, and China's been taking up the slack, and we haven't done anything about it. And this is one of the reasons why the Chinese think that they own President Trump because they're saying that we are afraid of imposing that 25% tariff on China because China is so magnificent and we're so weak. And I think that President Trump needs to impose that 25% tariff on China because if he doesn't, the Chinese are going to be more bold and they're going to be more aggressive, and life is going to become more difficult for us. So I hope that President Trump just gets tired of the Chinese trying to humiliate him.

[Lisa Booth]

Well, he seems to be getting really frustrated with Putin. So, you know, perhaps, you know, and.

[Gordon Chang]

I think that shows a pattern that he offered an off ramp to Putin. Putin didn't take it. Trump, I think, is going to give him a hard time, and Xi Jinping should take that as a warning. But I'm sure Xi Jinping isn't, because he's. He's bold and aggressive and he'll push everybody to the limit.

[Lisa Booth]

Yeah, I think President Trump, you know, you can tell he really starts to get annoyed when he. He feels like it's sort of venturing into being disrespected. Gordon Chang, appreciate the insight, sir. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[Gordon Chang]

Lisa. I really appreciate it. And so thank you.

[Lisa Booth]

That was Gordon Chang. Appreciate him for taking the time to come on the show. Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, but you can listen throughout the week. I also want to thank my producer, John Casio, for putting the show together. Until next time.

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[Gordon Chang]

Ah, come on.

[Christina Quinn]

Why is this taking so long?

[Gordon Chang]

This thing is ancient.

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Whoa, this thing moves.

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[Christina Quinn]

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[Christina Quinn]

Learn [e-mail] this is an iHeart podcast.