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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Truth with Lisa Boothe: Faith Under Fire: Pastor Gary Hamrick on Charlie Kirk’s Assassination and America’s Spiritual Crisis
00:25:33
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- [03:21]
A
Lisa Booth, where we get to the heart of the issues that matter to you. Today, we're diving into a heavy but important conversation about grief, about faith, about this spiritual battle that we're facing right now in the country and also just the world. In the wake of the tragic assassination of Charlie Kirk, a devout Christian, a guy who lived his life for Christ, for his family, for his country, we're left asking, why does God allow such evil to happen? Why does God allow such pain? You know, and how do we process the celebration of his loss in our society when we see all these people in just such an evil way of celebrating and gleefully celebrating the loss of human life, the assassination of a great man? You know, the only heartening thing that we've seen from all this is it, it has, it seems to have sparked something in people around the world, you know, perhaps a spiritual revival, I don't know. But it seems like we're seeing more and more people, millions of people around the world, more boldly stand in their faith and their beliefs. So we're gonna have someone come on the show today who is very bold in his beliefs, who's very bold for the truth and his faith. You might have heard of him, but it's Pastor Gary Hamrick of Cornerstone Chapel in Leesburg, Virginia. It's a thriving church just right outside of the Washington, D.C. area. They have thousands attend Cornerstone Chapel. He's a leader of the truth. He's not afraid to back down from a fight. He's not afraid to get involved in politics. He's unafraid, much like Charlie was. So we're going to lean on him today to walk us through this grief, what it means, the spiritual battle that we all know that we're facing right now and where we might Be headed as a country. So stay tuned for for Pastor Gary Hamrick of Cornerstone Chapel. Well, Pastor, I mentioned you previously, but my parents used to attend your church when they lived in Virginia, and they just loved going to Cornerstone. They loved hearing what you had to say, and they loved how bold and truthful you are. So we appreciate you making the time for the show today, sir.
- [05:42]
C
Thank you, Lisa. It's good to be with you, I think.
- [05:45]
A
So many of us have just been experiencing so much grief since Charlie Kirk's assassination. It's just our hearts are hurting, we feel broken, I guess. What can you tell us about grief and what can you tell us right now in this time of just hurting and pain?
- [06:02]
C
You know, I heard somebody once say, and I think this is just so helpful, that when God created Adam and Eve in the garden, he didn't really wire humanity with the capacity to grieve because we weren't supposed to experience death, the result of sin, the fall of man, and then death ensued as a result. But originally, when God created man, we were not really wired to experience the emotion of grief because we weren't wired to experience death. And so I think grief is one of the hardest emotions to work through. I know a lot of people who obviously turn to different vices and different substances to try to cope with the grief. But you know, for us who obviously believe in Christ, we lean more into him, we press more into the Lord and we give him our sorrows. The Bible says that God is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. And so when I'm grieving and when you're grieving, when people grieve over the loss of a loved one, in this case losing Charlie Kirk, we just have to press into the Lord because grief is not something we are supposed to really experience.
- [07:12]
A
I think a lot of people look at something like this and they say, here's this God fearing man, a guy who dedicated his life to Christ, his family, his country. He's a good man and yet he was assassinated. He was murdered. Why does God allow evil to happen?
- [07:28]
C
Yeah, that's the big question. Evil entered the world because initially Satan rebelled against the Lord. God has given even his created beings angels and he's given mankind free will because he wants us to choose him. He wants a love relationship. He doesn't want it to be a robotic kind of a legal relationship. And so because we have choice, we can choose to love him and follow him. We can choose to disobey him and rebel against him. And so evil in the world began because Satan rebelled against the Lord. And so God is not the author of evil. Evil is the result of the fall of Satan and the fall of man. And now we live in a world where there is this evil. But that's why God sent Christ into the world, to rescue us from an evil world. So sometimes it's really hard to make sense of it because we think, okay, God is sovereign on the one hand, but we have all this evil in the world on the other hand. How can God allow this? Well, God provided a remedy for us because of evil that entered the world as a result of Satan and man's rebellion against him. That's hard. But he is our refuge and he's our ever present help in times of trouble.
- [08:43]
A
You know, it seems like, you know, just speaking of that evilness, we're really seeing it in abundance.
- [08:50]
C
Yeah.
- [08:50]
A
Day. I mean, you know, Pastor, I'm not, I'm sure you've seen people celebrating. Yeah, a young man, just 31 years old being murdered, being assassinated. It's like, how did we get to this point? I mean, it, it just seems more evil than, you know, any other time. I can, you know, I'm 40, but it just, I don't remember a time where people would just so callously and gleefully celebrate the murder of someone.
- [09:17]
C
I'll top your age. I'm 62 and I still haven't seen anything quite like this. But, you know, personally, I think it's been there. It's just been under the radar until something like this will spontaneously release what is actually there. The core of humanity is wicked. And you know, again, I'm a pastor, so I, I see things and I, I hope all Christians see things through the lens of the Bible. And when I look at the Bible and when I see what the Bible says about the condition of humanity. We are a fallen race of people, all of us, and that's why Christ came into the world, to rescue us. And so this evil that is in the world, the wickedness that is in the world, I think has, has always been there. It's just that it, it, it just kind of flies under the radar until something catastrophic like this happens with the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And then the people who didn't like him now become very vocal in their vitriol and their animosity and their hatred, and it, it just is, it's so disheartening. But to be honest, it's not surprising because this is the condition of a fallen world.
- [10:24]
A
You know, it seems to me that, you know, Obviously, there was a political dynamic to this in the sense of, you know, Charlie was a political leader. You know, Turning Point was a powerhouse. I mean, he helped elect President Trump, particularly with younger people. But even more so than that, there is a spiritual component to this. And I believe Charlie was murdered for his faith because that was the basis and the foundation of all of his beliefs. I mean, the truth that he spread was because of his faith in Jesus Christ. You know, is that how you see it? I mean, is he a martyr for Christianity or how do you see this?
- [11:02]
C
Yeah, I said on Sunday that the reason why Charlie Kirk was considered, quote, controversial is simply because his biblical views shaped his political views that challenged the cultural views. And so even though people saw him as a political figure, really his politics were shaped because of his biblical views, because of his faith in Christ and his belief in the Bible. And so he was more. So of late. He became more of an apologist, really, for the Christian faith. He became a great debater to defend the cause of Christ, to defend scriptural principles, to defend the Bible. And his faith became more obvious in latter years than when he first started Turning Point usa. In fact, later he started even this leg, this branch of Turning Point faith because his faith became so, so important to him. Whether he died as a Christian martyr. I've had a lot of discussions with some of my friends about this, and I think that that is up for debate only because in the traditional sense of a martyr, it's usually someone who is doing something specifically in the cause of Christ. You know, when the Taliban murders a missionary, the story of Jim Elliot, you know, Stephen, in the Bible, those are considered more the traditional mar. So whether Charlie Kirk died as a Christian martyr, I guess that's up for discussion. But his faith certainly was a testimony of his. Of his belief in Jesus Christ. And martyr comes from the Greek word martus, which just means witness. And he certainly was that he was a witness for Christ and all that he said and did.
- [12:45]
A
You know, it feels like, you know, obviously there is a political battle in front of us, but the spiritual one seems to supersede that kind of talk about this, you know, spiritual battle that we're facing right now. It really does feel like it's just, you know, less than Republican versus Democrat. It's like just good versus evil.
- [13:08]
C
Yeah, yeah. Well, in. In the Bible, in Isaiah 5, Isaiah speaks about how woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who substitute light for darkness and darkness for light. We are living in that time right now. We're living in an upside down world where just 10, 15 years ago, things that used to be called wrong are now called right and even celebrated. And things that used to be called right are now called wrong by many in the culture. And you just. This is a spiritual battle. What we're seeing happening right now with the violence, the hatred, the animosity, all of this is just an indication of a spiritual battle that is going on really for the soul of America. And it could be said around the world, but, you know, just looking at it close to home, this is a spiritual battle. And you're right, it's not. It used to be. I'm old enough to remember when Republicans and Democrats were more closely aligned. I mean, for goodness sakes, Bill Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage act, which got struck down by the Supreme Court. But it just goes to show you that here's a Democrat who was defending marriage, the traditional marriage, like the Bible spells it out. And now you don't. You don't even have that. You don't even have many Democrats who would support DOMA today. They've gone to a place where there's this division over the things that used to be considered right and wrong are no longer considered in the same light of right and wrong. And that indicates to me this is really a spiritual battle. It's deception of the highest level, Satan and demonic principalities that we cannot see. And I don't want to blame them for everything, but it's just pretty clear that when you look at violence and you look at how people are redefining things, redefining marriage, redefining biological sex, as if you could do that, redefining all these different things, it just is an indication that we've lost our minds. And the reason is because there's a spiritual battle behind it that is causing a delusion and a deception.
- [15:09]
A
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- [19:26]
A
Well, you know, I've always looked at the transgender issue as if a part of society can get the rest to accept something that's so demonstrably false and such a lie that then they can convince you and get you to believe anything.
- [19:41]
C
Yeah.
- [19:41]
A
And, you know, so for me, it's always just been a battle of truth, you know, and, you know, it's sort of like a control exercise, right? Like, if we can get these people to accept something that is so such a lie, then like, we're an owned people, right? The truth no longer matters and we're living in this gray area where, you know, there is no wrong versus right.
- [20:04]
C
Lisa. I had a guy who works for a pharmaceutical company send me an email. He and his wife and four daughters attend our church. And he sent me an email once that just basically said, thank you for telling the truth so that I can know I'm not going crazy. There are a lot of people who just, we're believing things or we're being told things I should say that are true when in fact they're. They're completely false. But if it's repeated enough, you know, if that lie is repeated enough, then it is believed by a majority of people as if it is true. And then you have this minority of people now who are saying, am I going crazy? I mean, is this really what it appears to be? And so that's just one story of many emails I get from people saying, thank you for helping us to be centered, to know what is right and from what is false, what is true, from what is false. Because otherwise we think we're going crazy.
- [20:57]
A
Then I guess why are so few willing to take a stand? Because I think that is one thing that made Charlie Kirk such a giant was the fact that he was unafraid. He was, you know, at a time when like the culture was telling young people to go in one direction. Like, he stood so bravely for his beliefs and for truth and for light. So it's like, why then do people cower when, you know, even just this past election, we found out that there are more Americans who share common sense principles and beliefs, over 77 million than not yet so few people speak up.
- [21:34]
C
So why I think we live in such a me oriented culture. Social media has driven that in large part. How many likes did I get? How many thumbs up did I get? And so now people are more concerned about their personal popularity, how well they are liked than they are about the truth. Because they know that if they were to take a stand on certain things, people may not like them. And I said to our congregation on Sunday, we have to get over this, this whole idea of being liked. Because even Jesus said in John 15, if they hate you, remember they hated me first. Whenever you draw a line, even if you wrap it in grace and wrap the truth in love, some people will still be offended by the truth just because truth confronts us. You know, every time I read the Bible, it confronts me and, and there. And my response has to either be, okay, I'm going to submit to this and humble myself, or I'm going to be offended by it. So when a culture does not accept God as the supreme authority in their lives, then they get offended by any truth as God defines it. And a lot of people are reluctant to be truthful and honest and courageous and bold because they don't want to, quote, offend people. And the root of that is they just don't want to be disliked. And Charlie Kirk was a different person altogether in that regard because he wanted to tell the truth and he didn't really care if people disliked him. And he was willing literally to die for it because there was a shooter who disliked him so much that he took his life.
- [23:12]
A
I think his murder has been a gut check for so many people around the world. This 31 year old has so much purpose in his life and already knows why he was put on this earth and his mission in life and was so bold and so brave. It's like, what are the rest of us doing? Yeah, why do you think we're kind of all feeling that gut check right now?
- [23:35]
C
Because I think many of us not only are grieving over the assassination of Charlie Kirk, but I think we look at his life, and it makes us feel ashamed. And when I say that, I mean, when we look at how bold and courageous he was, most of us couldn't do that. Most of us would not go onto college campuses and try to debate and engage people in conversation. He just liked the exchange of ideas, and he liked the freedom of. Of free speech. But I think most people would be too intimidated to do such a thing. And so then when we see, man, he gave his life for what he believed. What. What am I doing? Am I willing to give my life in defense of what I believe? And so, in that way, in a positive way, his assassination has kind of shamed us into realizing the gut check is, do I have the courage to do what Charlie Kirk did? Am I willing to love people and love truth more than my own life? And that is challenging. But I think that's in part why many of us just feel this sense of, like, grief mixed with such awe and respect of what Charlie did for standing up for truth.
- [24:49]
A
You know, and then the irony is his killer obviously thought that he was shutting this down, that by killing Charlie, he would silence his voice. And instead, like, we're just the. The response to this. I'm just in awe of, like, just millions of people gathering and even, like, the United Kingdom and California and places that tend to be more liberal.
- [25:13]
C
South Korea.
- [25:14]
A
Yeah. Like, the amount of video. Right? Like, just the amount of videos being posted of people, like, declaring their faith and standing up for their beliefs. And, you know, it's. It's. It's. It's. It's remarkable what this has stoked.
- [25:27]
C
Yeah.
- [25:27]
A
Throughout the world.
- [25:29]
C
Yeah. And I hope it continues. You know, I remember after 9, 11, when everybody was grieving and churches were swelled with attendance, as ours was on Sunday. I mean, we had hundreds of extra people here on Sunday. It affects the psyche of America. And when there's a national tragedy like this. And so I just hope that it continues. I hope that what's been ignited continues to. To burn brightly, because this can be a new day. This could be a great time for America. It can be a great spiritual revival that sweeps across our country. So I pray that his death is not in vain and that some great things will come out of it.
- [26:10]
A
I think a lot of people are. Can be frustrated sometimes and feel like, you know, churches try to, like, toe the line or they're not trying to. You know, they don't want to offend or, you know, it's it's. You've kind of done things differently. Why do you think some other churches and other pastors sort of choose to not engage in some of these battles? And then why have you chosen the opposite?
- [26:33]
C
It's. It's an. It's an ironic thing, Lisa. I know pastors who are afraid to speak out on these issues because they think people will leave their church, and then people leave their church and then take their money with them. So they're afraid of losing numbers and they're afraid of losing money. What I have found is that it's the opposite. We're living in a time right now where people are so hungry for the truth that when I say things that might. May not be, you know, all that popular to. To a culture that doesn't believe that that for every one person who leaves my church, three more come. And, and I'm not exaggerating. I mean, we have seen growth in our church numerically and financially. And my goal is. Has not been numeric or financial growth. It's just simply. I've witnessed the fact that when you stand for what is right and you tell the truth, there's a hunger right now in America for somebody to tell people the truth. And I encourage pastors and churches like, don't be afraid because yeah, some people will leave your church, but others will come because they're searching, they're hungry, they want to know more. But unfortunately, a lot of the woke mentality has infiltrated the church and churches are hanging out rainbow flags and other things, and they're turning to social justice more than they are the Bible. And so they're watering down everything. And that doesn't help anybody. That does a horrible disservice to people. So I'm encouraged that there's a real hunger for the truth and it's a joy to stand up and share God's word because I know it's what is liberating. You know, Jesus said, if you know the truth, the truth will set you free.
- [28:04]
A
Got to take a quick break. If this show is resonating with you, please share on social media or send it to a friend or family member who's really on your side when it comes to your health. Insurance companies, pharmacies that refuse valid prescriptions. Not a chance. The truth is our healthcare system is broken. That's why more people are turning to all family pharmacy, an independent pharmacy that's actually on your side, the right side. They fight for your medical freedom, making it simple to get the treatments you trust without the insurance runaround Right now, ivermectin and mebendazole are 25% off, starting at just $2 a capsule, and you can save another 10% with code USA10. Choose from over 200 medications, antibiotics, hydroxychloroquine, NAD plus, methylene blue, antivirals and more, all with a doctor's prescription included and shipped straight to your door. Go to AllFamilyPharmacy.com USA and use code USA10. Again, that's AllFamilyPharmacy.comUSA and use code USA10. If you believe in medical freedom, well, this is your pharmacy.
- [29:10]
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- [31:09]
D
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- [31:53]
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- [32:25]
A
You know you've also chosen to engage in politics where, you know, some other churches might not.
- [32:31]
C
Yeah.
- [32:32]
A
Why have you decided to do that? Why is that important to you?
- [32:35]
C
In 2008, I had David Barton, who's the president of Wall Builders, he spoke at my church and he asked me, then he said, do you preach election sermons? And I, I said, david, what's an election sermon? And he, and he actually showed me. I ended up buying a two volume set of books called Political Sermons of the American Founding Era. And it was from the late 1600s into the mid-1700s, where during the colonial period, pastors would get up in their pulpit and they would call out the candidates and they would talk about the Bible in terms of how it should shape our political views and how we should vote in that regard. So when I just started looking into American history and realizing, for example, 29 out of 56 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence had Bible school or seminary training, their faith influenced the founding of America. I mean, for goodness sakes, look at the opening of the Declaration of Independence that we are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights. I mean, they put God right at the top of the document. So when I started realizing how much of faith has shaped America, as a pastor, I wanted to be faithful, to do the same and to continue that tradition. And it's not only American tradition. You look into the Bible and the prophets of old, they called out kings. The prophets spoke truth to power. And so I see that as part of my responsibility. I know politics is not all that popular because some people come to church and they think, oh, separation of church and state, which is nowhere in the Bill of Rights, Constitution, or Declaration of Independence. It was in a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to Danbury Baptist in Connecticut. But people have taken that to mean politics has no place in the church. My opinion is everything about our faith should shape our influence in the world, culturally, socially, even politically. And so as a pastor, I feel it's a responsibility to help the people to be engaged.
- [34:36]
A
How did you get into ministry?
- [34:39]
C
You know, that's a good story. I actually was going the route that you've gone. I was at American University as a journalism major, and I just couldn't shake. At least I got. I came into faith to believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior when I was 15. And so when I started, you know, finishing out high school and heading into college, I. I had it in my mind to pursue communications and journalism. But I just couldn't get away from this sense that God wanted me to serve him in ministry. And, you know, people can. People have ministry wherever they're planted. I don't ever wanted to discount the influence that people can have in whatever area that they are employed or wherever God takes them. But for me, it was a more of a commitment that I believed God wanted me to have in serving him full time. So in the middle of college, I, I switched schools and went to a Bible college and, and. And then finished, and a door opened for me to. To plant cornerstone. And that was now 34 years ago, and we planted with 18 charter members and. And now thousands of people later, I just give God all the glory.
- [35:47]
A
And before we go, what message do you want to leave us with?
- [35:50]
C
You know, I remember there was a podcast that Charlie Kirk did that they've been showing on social media these days, where he was asked, what do you want to be remembered for when all this goes away? And Charlie was kind of shocked by the question. He said, you mean when I die? And the interviewer just asked the question again. Well, just when it all goes away, what do you want to be remembered for? And he said, I want to be remembered for the courage of my faith. And that spoke to me. And I think what's important for all of us to remember is that we live in a world where truth matters and so stand for truth. Be courageous in your faith. Make a difference in the world. For the glory of God. And if you really love people more than you love yourself, you will want to share the truth with them more than protecting your own personal popularity. So I think the message today is be courageous and be bold because the world needs it.
- [36:47]
A
Pastor Gary Hamrick, we appreciate you making the time, sir. I think we needed this. So thank you so much for making the time.
- [36:53]
C
Thank you Lisa. It's been a privilege to be with you.
- [36:55]
A
Those Pastor Gary Hamrick of Cornerstone Chapel, we appreciate him for making the time to come on the show. Just imparting some wisdom on us as well. Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, but you can listen throughout the week. Also want to thank my producer John Cassio for putting the show together. Until next time.
- [37:15]
B
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C
Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
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A
Still using yesterday's tech Upgrade to the.
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C
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A
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C
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C
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E
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- [40:24]
C
Com.
- [40:25]
A
This is an iHeart podcast.