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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Truth with Lisa Boothe: Freedom, Rebellion & the Real Story of Independence with Dr. Brion McClanahan
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- [00:00]
Lisa Booth
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Dr. Brian McClanahan
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Ryan Seacrest
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- [02:51]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
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- [03:00]
Lisa Booth
Well, first off, happy Independence Day. I hope everyone is having an amazing day. I hope you're spending time with the people you love. I hope you're spending time with your friends, your family. Maybe you're on a trip, maybe you're just doing a staycation or maybe you even have to work. But I hope it's a great day nonetheless. As we celebrate Independence Day, as we celebrate America's independence from a monarchy, we look today at what has really transpired over the past few years, particularly during. COVID and I talk about this a lot on the show, but it was so eye opening for me. I'm sure it was for a lot of you guys at home of just tyranny is here, right? We're not immune to tyranny. Of course we weren't back when this nation was founded, but we're certainly not today. And if you look back at the founding generation or founding fathers, they didn't put up with it, right? They weren't putting up with this oppressive regime from far away, trying to strangle their way of life, trying to impose on their way of life, trying to dictate to them their way of life. So why are we putting up with it today, right? Why are we putting up with, with our government? I'm not saying we don't have to resort to obviously the tactics that our founding generation resorted to, but there are other ways to fight back. There are other place to fight back, you know, locally, to fight back against government, to fight back against tyranny and to resist a little bit. So today what I want to do is sort of revisit the foundations of America, revisit our founding fathers, revisit the founding generation. You know, why was America born? You know what happened in the lead up before the Declaration of Independence. You know what happened to that lead up before July 4, 1776. So we're going to get into that with a historian. His name is Dr. Brian McClanahan. He has his own podcast, the Brian McClanahan Show. You can check it out on Apple. I listened to like five yesterday. It's super interesting. He gets into a lot of real world issues, today's issues from a historical perspective, and he just has really interesting takes on it. He's really smart guy. So he's also the author and co author of six books. He's written books like the Politically Incorrect Guidelines to the Founding Fathers, the the Founding Fathers Guide to the Constitution. He's a faculty member at the Tom Woods Liberty Classroom. He received a bachelor's degree in history from Salisbury University, a master's in history from the University of South Carolina, as Well as his PhD in history from the University of South Carolina. It's just a really interesting guy. So today on this Independence Day, we are going to talk about individual liberty, we're going to talk about freedom, we're going to talk about the birthday of America, why this country is special, why this country needs to be preserved, and what we can do to preserve it. So I hope you enjoy this Fourth of July Independence Day special with Dr. Brian McClanahan. Dr. Brian McClanahan, thanks so much for joining the Truth with Lisa Booth. I appreciate your time.
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Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
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Lisa Booth
So obviously this is for the Independence Day special. You know, we've sort of seen a lot of narratives that we believe to be true have been contradicted and shown to not be true. And a lot of what we thought we were insulated and immune from in America, like tyranny, we saw during COVID that we are actually not. So I kind of wanted to revisit American history, our nation's foundings and sort of how far we've gone from that beginning. And I thought you'd be the perfect person for, for this episode.
- [06:28]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, I appreciate you having me on. Yes. I mean, it' when you look at what's happened in America over the last couple of years and really in the last hundred plus years and where we've come from and where we are today, there's a dramatic difference between 2022 and 1775 and what Americans are willing to accept in 1775 and what we're willing to accept today. If the founding generation were dropped in 2022, they'd look at all of us and say, what are you doing? You know, we were willing to do far more for far less than what you're willing to suffer through now. And so it's, it's a really important history lesson to get all of this right, because if Americans really knew the story of independence, I think they would be looking at things today dramatically different.
- [07:10]
Lisa Booth
Well, and what's interesting is I was listening to your podcast. It's really good. People should go take a look. Subscribe the Brian McClanahan Show. You sort of challenge a lot of, you know, groupthink orthodoxy that, you know, a lot of people say a lot of points about history that may or may not be true, that we've been taught incorrectly as well, but. So you use Founding generation instead of just talking about the Founding Fathers. Why do you make that distinction?
- [07:34]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, because if you just say the Founding Fathers, people think it's the 55 men who drafted the Constitution, or it's maybe six people. I mean, I've called them the big six. You know, it's Washington, Adams, Hamilton, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin. And of course, that's incorrect. You had an entire generation of Americans through 13 states that were interested in these principles that we all think about today. Independence, liberty, all these things. And so when you talk about the Constitution, for example, the Constitution wasn't ratified by 55 guys. It was ratified by 13 states. And you had a large public discussion about what that meant. And so there's a lot of people in that generation of founders that we wouldn't recognize. Say, for example, Roger Sherman of Connecticut, who was so important in that period of time, but nobody knows who he is, or even people that you might recognize or name, like George Mason of Virginia, but you don't really know much about him, so. Or John Dickinson of Pennsylvania. This is a bigger issue than just a few guys sitting in Philadelphia in 1787 or even just the delegates to the continental Congress in 1776. There's so much more to this, and I think we need to be comprehensive. And when we talk about this generation of people, there was a variety of viewpoints, but at the end of the day, they were all committed to one particular principle, and that was a limited central authority. And when they're talking about the British and the relationship between the British and the American colonies, and of course, that would translate later into the Constitution and the Articles of Confederation, the Declaration. So they were all committed to that and also to that principle of independence. And I think that's something we often forget.
- [09:09]
Lisa Booth
How much of what we are taught about history is actually true?
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Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, that's a big question. When you think about the Founding period, there's a lot that people get right, even the leftist historians, There are things they get right. But I would say that the real problem in America with teaching history is politicizing everything. If we're Talking about the 18th century, it has to be political. And what I mean by that is these People have to be 21st century Americans. If they're not, then we're just going to discard them. This is the entire agenda. Going after people like Washington and Jefferson now for things that they did that we don't do today, or views that they held that we don't hold today. But that's the real problem. It's saying, okay, well, Washington's a great man. Well, wait a second. Because he owns slaves, he's not really that great of a man. Or Jefferson's a great man. Well, wait a second. Because he owns slaves and he's not a great man, or because he held views on race that we don't hold today. So this is the real issue. It's not that we're taught things incorrectly. It's that everything is politicized and has an agenda behind all of it. So instead of just using history as a point, we can say, well, these people were great. Let's look at what they said. And we know that they have. They do things or say things that we don't necessarily agree with today, but what do they offer us for Americans in the 21st century? We have to discard them because they are not 21st century Americans. And that's called presentism. And I think that's the real issue with the historical profession.
- [10:38]
Lisa Booth
That makes a lot of sense, a ton of sense, actually. You know, before we kind of get into abbreviated TikTok of what led up to the Declaration of Independence, what do we typically get wrong about the American Revolution?
- [10:48]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, I think one of the most important things is that it was simply about taxation. And of course that's. And that was an issue. But the real core issue leading into independence was this idea that somehow the Parliament could legislate for the colonies in all cases whatsoever. That's what Tom Paine said in the American crisis. That was the issue. They were certainly willing to concede that Parliament could regulate international trade or defend the colonies. But what they didn't want Parliament doing was going in and saying, okay, these are the taxes you have to have, and these are the. This is the currency you have to use. These are the things you have to do in the colonies. Because of course, the colonies have their own legislatures and the Parliament. There was no representation in Parliament for these colonies, so there was a violation of the ancient rights of Englishmen. That's what Patrick Henry talked about. It was this idea that somehow Parliament had supremacy over these colonies when they simply didn't have any role in that Parliament. So when we simplify this period of time or make it into about lofty rights that were fabricated out of thin air that we do today. The proposition nation equality, these kind of things. I mean, they certainly talked about that stuff, but at the core, it was simply about making sure that they could govern themselves. And they were firmly committed to the Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights. It was an Anglo American tradition they were fighting for. So I think that's the major misconception, that it was just a simple no taxation, we don't want to be taxed, or, you know, we're willing to fight for some. Some other kind of principle that, you know, it's a. It's a something in the air that just doesn't make any sense. It was certainly a commitment to this idea of local self government that they were more concerned about than anything else.
- [12:26]
Lisa Booth
Well, and to that point, did it start with the Stamp Act? Because I know you had the Sugar act the year before, I believe, but the Stamp Act, I believe, was a tax on items within the colonies, which, to your point, was sort of this government interference from a government far away that they did not have representation, they did not have input. Was that sort of the turning point and when that relationship changed and the role of government changed within these colonies?
- [12:51]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you point out the Sugar act the year before 1764, but by 1765, you know, when the colony, when the parliament passes the Stamp act and the colonies react to that in the way they did it was exactly what you said. Well, you know what? You're not going to tax us internally when that's breaking over 100 years of precedent. I mean, you go back to the era of salutary neglect is what it's called. The Parliament let the colonies alone. They could govern themselves. And so that developed a system in their mind, a precedent for governance. And so when the Stamp act comes about, the colonial legislature say, we're just not going to. This is unconstitutional. And of course, the resistance was what we would call today nullification. They actually used it. That was born out of it. We're just not going to enforce the Stamp act. And we're going to tell our courts not to enforce. We're not going to have anybody charged with breaking the Stamp Act. So the resistance was, okay, you can pass a law in Parliament, we're just not going to enforce it here in the colonies. And you saw this across what became the United States. It wasn't just Massachusetts or, but it was in Virginia. There was. There was certainly resistance in every colony to this Stamp act. And that's because they viewed it as an unconstitutional measure. And think about all the things we have today that are unconstitutional. People just live with it. Okay, yeah, fine, they can pass it. We'll just go along with it. But that would not be the founding response to it.
- [14:11]
Lisa Booth
Or, you know, you look at Covid, it's not even law. You just have executive order dictating how we live our lives or shutting businesses down. That people have put everything into their whole livelihoods, their ability to feed their kids without a blink of the eye. But then, you know, but you can ride in the street. That first amendment right is, you know, worthy, but not going to church. So. Yeah, so I think a lot of people can sort of sympathize with that. So. So to be clear, you know, before sort of, you know, like the Stamp act and, you know, there's a bunch of different actions and provocations that the British government takes against the colonists. But. So there was really sort of a system of self governance to a certain degree, even though they are part of the British government. Is that correct?
- [14:52]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Absolutely. I mean, every colony had its own legislature. In fact, the first legislature in North America was established in 1619 in Virginia. And that's the other 1619. Right. We have the 1619 project. But the real importance of 1619 was that first legislature in Virginia, an elected legislature. And so you had local government here. And I think that's what we miss now. Of course, every colony by the 18th century had a governor, a royal governor that was appointed by the crown. But still these colonies had the ability to legislate for themselves. And they were very upset about the fact that you had parliament stepping in and saying, okay, well, you know what? We spent all this money on defending you during the French and Indian War. And so now you're going to pay for that. And we're going to tell you how you're going to pay for it. And so this was the issue. It was legislating for them in all cases whatsoever. Tom Paine called it tyranny. He said, that's it. If we can't legislate for ourselves, if we can't dictate what kind of legislation we'll accept for ourselves, and there's no other definition but tyranny than that. And so when you look back at this period, it was. And you talked about COVID and everything else, I mean, again, we're willing to suffer for in the United States today for far, you know, far more than what the founding generation was. I mean, they. They were not happy about a small tax that was being levied against them, against their will, and they were willing to declare their independence over it. And how much are we willing to accept today?
- [16:22]
Lisa Booth
How much of elitism sort of came into play? Like even though like George Washington was rich, he's not a British noble. Right. He probably still felt like they were thumbing their nose at him, looking down upon him. How much of that sort of had to play in here?
- [16:34]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, that's a good question. When you think about the leadership in the colonies. If you just use Virginia as an example, I mean a lot of these people believe they were in so many ways kind of a part of this old gentrification system in Great Britain. I mean, you have the distressed Cavaliers that came over to Virginia and they established plantations, but certainly there was an anti monarchical stance in America. I wouldn't say it was dramatically democratic the way we think of it today, but they were certainly more democratic than what you would find in Great Britain. As far as the elitist position. I mean they certainly didn't care for the hereditary monarchy. At least a portion of the founding generation, they didn't care for it. There were those that of course did. I mean there were Tories in America, so they were certainly fine with the monarchy. But those that were interested in independence, I mean that attack on the king or this hereditary system was something they didn't like. And this is why when there was an executive proposed In Philadelphia in 1787, they all sat in Sun Stylus for a minute and they said, you know what? My gosh, this is. We're going to get a king. And we didn't want that. And so when you look at the Articles of Confederation, there's no monarchy in that, there's no executive. So that was something they were certainly concerned about. And I don't know if it was necessarily elitism, but they certainly didn't like the hereditary monarchical system to a great extent.
- [18:01]
Lisa Booth
Quick commercial break. Back with Dr. Brian McClanahan on the other side.
- [18:05]
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- [20:04]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [20:34]
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- [21:40]
Lisa Booth
Talk about sort of like the provocations, these acts where that revolutionary spirit just started to build up. You know, we talked about the Stamp act, we talked about the Sugar act, you know, you got the TEA act, the Township Acts, all these different things. You know, talk about sort of that, that build up and that increased just frustration with the heavy hand of, you know, the British government. You kind of, you know, putting it down on their necks.
- [22:01]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Sure. Well, I mean if you, if you. One of my favorite characters in all that is Sam Adams. Because Sam Adams was the guy that we all know this person. They stand on the corner or nowadays it's on the Internet and they say, you know, it's going to get bad, it's going to get worse. Just wait, it's going to get worse. It doesn't matter what's going on. This things are going to get worse. Just wait and see. Just watch. Take my word for it. And so if you look at 1765 and the stamp act and the response to that, it actually worked. I mean the colonists figured out that if they could go after the British and the Parliament in their wallet, it was going to help. And so the response was either nullification or non importation. They set up ways to hurt the empire economically. But of course by 1767 the parliament's doubling down and then by 1770 you see things get pretty bad, right? I mean it's, you have, you're five years away from the ultimate break, but you had a period of law between 1770 and 1772 when there wasn't a whole lot going on. But by 1773, again, you see these bills by Parliament ramping up. And this is the North Parliament. I mean they certainly believed the colonies were their subjects and they needed to be to pay their fair share and do what the Parliament told them. And you know, you look at things like the Intolerable Acts which eventually came about because of the Tea act. And the response to that. One thing we miss about the TEA act, by the way, let me just say this, is that it wasn't really a tax on tea that the colonists were concerned about. It was establishing a monopoly Only certain partners could trade that British East India tea. And so they thought that was a violation of good economic sense and, of course, creating a royal monopoly in the colonies. And so that's why they resisted it. But. But when you look at the intolerable acts, I mean, shutting down the Massachusetts government, saying that you're going to be essentially part of Canada, which at that time was where they were linking them in, that was Catholic. And so you had this religious resistance there as well. But that was the real issue. It was taking away those colonial charters, essentially, and saying, you're going to be under us, directly under our thumb. That was the point when I think everyone realized, okay, this is going to get really bad. And if we're willing to accept this now, there's no turning back. I mean, they're going to say to us that they can abolish our legislatures. They can do whatever they want to us. You had in Virginia, right, the world governor shut down the legislature, the House of Burgesses, and so they went and met in the tavern and said, okay, we're going to meet in Raleigh tavern. We're going to legislate anyways, because you can't annihilate our legislature. So that was the real problem point. When you have these intolerable acts, even though they're directed only at Massachusetts, the other colonies reacted to it and saying, well, if it's going to happen there, it's going to happen here. And of course, Sam Adams has proven correct. He said, just wait, this is all going to get bad. And eventually. And eventually it did.
- [24:51]
Lisa Booth
Well, I've got a lot of people saying that about where we are today, too, but we'll get to that in a little bit. You know, how important were things like the Boston Tea Party? Obviously, a massive fu to the British government and just spurring that public sentiment of riling people up to being like you. You know what? It's on.
- [25:10]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Right? I mean, the Boston Tea Party, in terms of propaganda was very important. You had, of course, Paul Revere and, you know, involved in creating images of this thing. But when you look at the actual massacre itself, the term massacre, I mean, it was. It was. It wasn't really a massacre with the loss of life, but the way that they could sell this to the public was important. And of course, the colonists were somewhat responsible for this. I mean, they were harassing the British soldiers or throwing ice at them. And there was a lot of question about whether, you know, there was even an order given to fire by the British or if this was somebody standing in the shadows, yelling, fire. Of course, there's also a fire, an actual physical fire in Boston at that point. And so maybe somebody got a little itchy trigger finger and they fired. But the important part about it, too, was the response by John Adams, who thought that these soldiers needed a fair trial, because if they didn't get a fair trial, then the parliament could look at him and say, well, I mean, we're going to ship you back over to London to stand trial. So for anything else. So he wanted to ensure that these soldiers got a fair trial. And they did. He actually was able to get several of them acquitted. So that response, too, is interesting. Adams did that to great expense of his career, at least at that point. But in terms of propaganda, it's huge because now you have dead people in the streets. And there was another event in New York City where you had a similar kind of, you know, riot. And there was some. There was some bloodshed there, too. So that. I mean, that part of that period of time, that little bit of violence, but again, things calmed down after that for a couple of years, and then it was ramped back up again leading into 1775.
- [26:47]
Lisa Booth
Well, and you also had, you know, other public acts of rebellion, like the Boston Tea Party as well.
- [26:53]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Absolutely. I mean, the Boston Tea. There are many Tea Parties. That's a fun part of this, too, the Boston Tea Party, where, I mean, most conspicuous, where they threw the tea into the harbor. But you actually had tea parties in Maryland. You had. So you had one there where the citizens of Maryland took all the tea off the ship and then burned it. And of course, the funny thing about that is they sold it, right? They didn't just throw it in the harbor, they took it and they sold it, and they used the money to finance their activities against the Crown. So that was the more wise thing to do than just throwing it in the harbor. But. But the response to the Tea act was not just in Boston. It was, again, across the colony. So these public resistance to these unconstitutional and toppable acts was something very important in leading up to the war. And again, when we think about today, we had the Tea Party movement for a little while and people throwing little teabags into the water. I mean, that's funny. But I don't know if Americans are as committed today as. As the founding generation was, standing up for things that they considered to be their liberties. But I am encouraged by what happened with COVID and people finally saying, enough, we're just not going to wear the masks. We're not going to do this. We're not going to abide by your stupid edicts. These things are illegal. They're unconstitutional. I think that was encouraging. And also the response from various states and saying, you know, federal government, you really don't have this power. We're going to do what we want to do in Florida, for example, and Ron DeSantis, so. So that was the spirit of independence. And I think that's something, again, that's lacking throughout most of America, but it is still there in many parts of the United States. And that's a good thing to see.
- [28:28]
Lisa Booth
And also, I think, helped too, because basically all these people who think they thought they could hide in their basements for two years got Covid. And then they're like, okay, well, I don't care anymore. It sort of like deprogrammed these crazy people, right?
- [28:42]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
As more and more people got it and they figured out it was a bad cold. And of course, you know, you can't minimize it. There's. Initially, it was pretty rough on a lot of people and a lot of elderly people in particular. But, you know, our response to it, the government's response to it, was very much a British type response initially. And I think that's something we miss in all this. And of course, not everyone did, but it's. Yeah, you're right. As people started saying, this is not something that we should fear, and they got back at us and forget it. We're just going to live our lives. And I think that was another great part of this whole thing at the end of the day.
- [29:14]
Lisa Booth
But to your point, you know, thank God for people like Governor DeSantis fighting against the federal government and saying, we're just not going to do this here. This makes no sense. And having the guts and, you know, the fortitude to do that. So, you know, you got that. The Continental Congress starts meeting in 1774. And then we've got the Declaration, the signing of the Declaration of independence on July 4, 1776, ratified by the Second Continental Congress. Between the first and then the Second Continental Congress, what sort of. Because my understanding is like, the first one, not everyone is really. It was more of just kind of like sending a message saying, look, this is sort of what we want. It wasn't really at that point of saying, you know, we're.
- [29:53]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
We'll.
- [29:53]
Lisa Booth
We're full throttle. We're, you know, we're all in on declaring independence. So what kind of. Well, first of all, you know, correct me if I'm wrong. Secondly, what sort of transpired between that first one, and then declaring independence, that sort of just, you know, for the people kind of hanging out, hanging on the side, saying, I don't know, brought them over the edge.
- [30:13]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Right. Well, you're exactly right about the first Continental Congress. And John Adams complained they weren't going to do anything. And so you have. They get together in Philadelphia and they say, all right, well, look, let's talk about what's happening here. And of course, they did adopt, became the Suffolk Resolves, which were, as I mentioned before, a nullification process. We're going to nullify any unconstitutional laws. But they weren't willing to break at that point. And I think that's because, I mean, as Patrick Henry point pointed out in his give me liberty or give me death speech, I mean, this was. This was something we were more inclined to do. People are inclined to suffer while evils are sufferable. I mean, so they were generally willing to accept. American people were generally willing to accept these unconstitutional invasions while they could tolerate them. Right. So this was something that. I think in 1774, they weren't so committed to independence yet. Certainly there were people that were. I mean, again, Patrick Henry already, was he considered Virginia independent much, much earlier than this. I mean, as early as 1765. But Sam Adams. But I think for the most part, you had in the founding generation, they were still willing to put the brakes on. And I think the real change came when the king rejected their pleas for an olive branch. This was John Dickinson. He writes the olive branch petition. And of course, George III gets this. At the same time, he gets some mail, intercepted mail, where John Adams says, well, nobody really believes this thing anyways. And so George was not willing at that point to accept any type of compromise. And. And then, of course, you get 1775 and you get the invasion of Lexington and Concord. And I think that's what really turned people around. They said, okay, well, if they're going to actually march in and try to seize our arms, which is what they were doing, that was the point. There's no turning back. And so you get. That was almost a year before the declaration. So by 1776, it was a full break, and you still even had people in. Dickinson wasn't going to support independence even in 1776. You still have people that weren't on board with it yet. But in realizing that, I think most people realize when there was an armed conflict in Massachusetts, and then, of course, you had other events before 17, before the declaration as well, this was it. We can't turn back. We can't say, oops, sorry. We're just going to say, we're going to stay in the empire. There was no way that was going to happen because the parliament was going to. To do everything they could to force the colonies to bend to their will, and the king was not going to support them. And so I think they believe by that point, they really had no choice by 1776 except independence.
- [32:50]
Lisa Booth
So, like, for the folks like Dickerson that you just mentioned, was it loyalty? Was it fear? Sort of what was holding them back from, you know, being completely on board with a revolution?
- [33:00]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, I think it was a mix of both. I mean, John Dickinson was a very wealthy man in Delaware and Pennsylvania. He had. He had a number of houses, of course, all of which were burned, except his plantation in Delaware. And they were loyal to the crown. I mean, this is. It'd be no different than any of us sitting here today and saying, my gosh. I mean, that would be a big decision for any of us. Do we want independence? We've been American citizens for all these years, however old you are, and we've been pro United States for all this time. And that's a big decision for people to make, and it's not one to be taken lightly. And I think that was the issue for many of them. They weren't certain if they wanted that, to take that step. And, of course, there was some fear, too. They knew that if they signed their name to that declaration or voted for it, that could be construed as treason and so that you could forfeit your life and your property in that case. So this is a big decision to make, and we take this now very lightly. We have July 4th, and everyone shoots off fireworks. We have hot dogs and ball games. But when that decision was made in Philadelphia on July 2, in fact, and they sat there in stunned silence, did we really just do this? Did all of these people just vote by state for independence? And there was not a big cheer, and this was going to be a big party? This was. Oh, my gosh, what did we just do? And it was a heavy decision for all the reasons you mentioned. But. But I think that they realized the gravity of the situation and what was going to happen and what could potentially happen if they lost that push for independence.
- [34:34]
Lisa Booth
Of course, it's really heady what they just did, right? I mean. I mean, they're declaring war. I mean, they're. They're going to go to war. They're sending their family members, their neighbors, the people they love, to war. I mean, that's A huge, huge thing.
- [34:45]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Absolutely. It's not something to take lightly. And you know, when you look at the cost, when they, when they send the Declaration, they pledge their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to this. They really meant it. I think that's not something that we can, we can just flippantly disregard. So many men sacrificed everything for that. And you know, I often talked about the Minute Men. You know, they're in Massachusetts at Lexington and Concord. Imagine you're in your bed, it's middle of the night, and you hear a rider coming down the road and the Regulars are coming out. And you have to get up, grab your musket and head out the door to go confront the Regulars of the British army, which is one of the best armies in the world. I mean, maybe only the French. It's questionable at that point. They're both about the same. So here you are, a militiaman fighting against a regular army. And that's something we don't really think about. These men were not trained to be soldiers like the British. And so when you think about the Battle of Bunker Hill and the casualties that these militia inflicted on the Regulars there, but then you move forward in time to the Battle of Long island and how the British and the Hessians just annihilated the American forces and what Washington had with to do, he was crying, he was weeping as he's watching his men just get plowed over by the British. And this is really difficult, a really difficult time and a really difficult time for a lot of people and a hard decision to make. And so I don't think we can ever say enough about these men who are willing to walk in knee deep snow at the Battle of Trenton to cross the Delaware river and all the things, all the deprivations in Valley Forge and in the south where, you know, you had in Charleston patriots executed by the British just because they supported the cause. And I mean, this is really hard stuff. And so this was not something that these people took lightly. And we should really celebrate them for this. If we really valued independence, do you.
- [36:44]
Lisa Booth
Think they would have won if France hadn't gotten involved?
- [36:47]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Probably not. The French breaking the blockade and, and of course, sending in some reinforcements there late in the war was certainly beneficial. And you know, Yorktown would not have happened without the French. So I don't think that there's any way the United States can win without it. And of course they, you know, they knew that. I think they knew that if they didn't get some type of international support, this war was going to be over. And they were going to lose. And all of these men who signed the Declaration were going to go down as traitors. And we would be looking at an entirely different situation. We wouldn't have a United States today. So the French were valuable. And of course, what did they get out of it? Just a whole bunch of debt and then their own revolution. So the byproduct for the French, the after aftermath of the French was not what I think they wanted, but of course it's what we wanted at the end of the day.
- [37:37]
Lisa Booth
Well, and obviously, you know, we celebrate Independence Day. We celebrate that Declaration of Independence. You know, what is the significance of it from your perspective as a historian?
- [37:49]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, for me it's the last paragraph. Everyone focuses on the second and the line, all men, we hold these streets to be self evident. All men are created equal. But for me, it's the last paragraph which declared that these were free and independent states. Because that sets the basis for the entire structure of the American government from that point forward. You think about the Articles of Confederation. Well, you had, they said it, states were independent. Even when you get to the Constitution, the way it was sold to the states was that we have a federal republic and these states still have powers, all the powers not delegated to the center. And so we have this reserve powers idea that comes out of the Declaration. And you have to understand Jefferson and the Declaration called Great Britain a state. And so it was the state of Great Britain. And you had 13 independent states. And so each state could do all the acts and things which independent states may have right to. He said it. And so you had 13 countries that were unified in their opposition to the British. We come together in a federal union that was basically modeled after what they were living under before. Right. The central authority could regulate commerce and defense, international commerce and defense. And then with the Constitution, commerce between the states. And that was it. I mean, everything else is left to the states. All the things that we talk about today that we wring our hands over are really state issues at the end of the day. And the problem is that we have people focus so much on the center and we need one size fits all government for everything. And that's again, that's legislating for us in all cases whatsoever. That's not what the founding generation would have wanted. So for me, it's that principle in that last paragraph that really matters moving forward in American government.
- [39:22]
Lisa Booth
Do you think that will happen naturally after Covid? I mean, for instance, I left New York City because I wanted to live freely as an American and move to Florida for that very purpose. And we've seen a lot of this migration. Red states are getting redder. Like Florida is officially a red state. When you look at registered Republicans in this state, do you think that separation is sort of underway in a way that it hasn't been recently?
- [39:47]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Yeah, absolutely. I think Covid did a lot to do that. People are, you know, I have people, listeners all the time on my show, because this is the theme of the show is think locally, act locally, right? Instead of think globally, act locally. You got to think locally and act locally so you can change your life at the local level. And it's, it's something that people don't realize. You know, you look at protests at the Supreme Court now and if you, whatever your position on those are, and I know we're talking to conservatives, so people would laugh at these protesters. But what kind of impact do you think 5, 10 people are going to have in the Supreme Court steps? But if they went to their state capitol, that would be larger impact. If they went to their city council, it'd be a larger impact. And so when we start talking about this idea of decentralization and how important Ron DeSantis is for the future of Florida, I think, I hope he stays governor of Florida. And I know that people want to be president, but we need 50 Ron DeSantises. That's what we really need. And that would make it to where Joe Biden would virtually be irrelevant. If we had states that actually stood up and said, you know what, you only have these powers and we're not going to let you have any others. The government really doesn't have, the central government really doesn't have the ability to enforce all the things that they do. And people recognize that in the 19th century, it's the idea of non commandeering. They can pass all the legislation they want to, but they don't have the resources to enforce all this stuff. The states are going to have to do it all. So if the states say, yeah, forget it, we're just not doing changes, the whole ball game. And so I think people are waking up to this, you know, and with the mask mandates and all these other things that happened during COVID and the governor saying, we're just not, we're going to keep our state open, we're just not going to do those things. You can have whatever you want in California, you can have whatever you want in Massachusetts or New York, but we're going to do what we want to do in Florida or Alabama or or Montana, wherever it was, we're going to take things differently. And so again, that spirit of this resistance to unconstitutional government I think is starting to manifest itself a little better. And people are voting with their feet, as you said, going to different states.
- [41:46]
Lisa Booth
Quick break. More on the founding generation on the.
- [41:49]
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- [43:25]
Lisa Booth
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- [44:28]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
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- [44:58]
Lisa Booth
Fast forward to the Constitution so ratified in 1788, in operation since since 1789. So Democrats like to say we have a democracy. Republicans say we have a constitutional republic. Why does that distinction matter and sort of what do you make of that debate that is always happening in our country?
- [45:16]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, I mean the term democracy is a loaded term. What kind of democracy do we have? A representative democracy? Do we have a direct democracy? I mean, what do we really have? The founding generation was committed to democracy, but it was always with a with a check. They didn't really trust mass popular democracy because they didn't think the people had enough information or were well educated enough to make these decisions oftentimes. That's why you see in the Constitution itself there's only one really democratic part of the Constitution and that is the House of Representatives. Otherwise the Senate was designed to be the state check on the entire system. The states chose the senators and of course through the legislature themselves. But, but the states did that originally. And then of course the president is elected by the electoral college, not direct vote. You've got the federal court system which is all appointed. So there's a whole lot of anti democratic stuff in the Constitution because they just didn't really believe that majoritarian rule was always the best thing. And they even said it after the Constitution was written and it was going through ratification. There was a lot of discussion about democracy and how this was going to be a check on rampant democracy. They thought democracy was ruining the states. They thought it was the bane of good government. So these distinctions to make, you know, we don't have a democracy, but I think the best term is a federal republic with representative government, not direct democracy. So and there were others that were concerned about what majoritarian rule could do. Right? If it's 50 people, 100 people, or 101 people, and 51 people get to rule the other 50. Is that really good government or is that tyranny? I mean, because those 50 people can be abused by 51 people. And that's, I mean, we don't really think about these things nowadays, but certainly they did. They understood that you could have a bad government even with democracy. And so you had to have some.
- [47:02]
Lisa Booth
Checks on that, which is why we have things like the Electoral College.
- [47:06]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Exactly right. I mean, it's. The Electoral College kept the states in the system. It allowed for another layer from the popular vote. We didn't count the popular vote until, until the 1820s. Right. I mean, nobody even knew what it was. It didn't matter. It only mattered what the Electoral College voted. And that was certainly there to ensure that there was some more educated person, so to speak, making a decision about who was going to be President of the United States. But if the presidency was actually, we adhere to that the way it was actually designed, the President would almost be irrelevant there for foreign policy to receive ambassadors, to make appointments, to make recommendations. But Congress had all the power. And that's something that we, Congress, wants to hide. Today we have executive government because Congress allows it to happen. So you need to be talking about Congress and what Congress needs to do and take their own power back from the Executive. It's very difficult to do, but it's something that I think needs to be done in the future, moving forward.
- [48:04]
Lisa Booth
That makes a ton of sense. We're talking about the founding generation and we've sort of touched on it throughout the conversation. But just get into how far are we today from what America was supposed to be?
- [48:17]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
I think almost 180 degrees. When you look at 1789, when the US Congress meets for the first time and we have the Constitution and the way that was sold to the states, I use that term because, you know, it was a ratification process where they actually had to sell this thing. We had this new Constitution. Not everyone was on board. What are we going to do? How is this thing going to work? And the opponents of the document were talking about, we're going to have a government that was going to be oppressive, it was going to abuse the states, it was going to do all kinds of illegal, what ultimately would be illegal things. And those who supported the proponents of the document insisted, no, it won't. Just look, you can only do these things and then everything else is left to the state. So if you just take that ratification process and then look at where we are and everything is centralized, everything is Washington, D.C. everything. All the things the general Government does that are completely unconstitutional? I think they would be. The opponents would feel like they're vindicated. Well, we told you so. And the proponents would have, you know, egg on their face because this is not the Constitution that they sold during the ratification process, but it's what we ultimately got. And so I think that the so called anti federalists were prescient in what was going to happen. And I mean, we are not anywhere near what, what was sold to the states in 1787 and 1788.
- [49:35]
Lisa Booth
Well, I think one thing that the Trump administration really opened a lot. I mean, I guess we saw it a little bit during the Obama administration with like the IRS targeting conservatives and things of that nature or just like spying on the Senate Intel Committee and reporters and the things like that. But we really saw it come to a head during the Trump administration. Sort of this administrative state, this deep state, these bureaucrats sort of subverting the will of the American people. How do you scale back government at this point? Is it, is it too late when you look at something like that?
- [50:04]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, I mean, I don't think you can reform Washington D.C. but again, there's certainly cracks in what it can do. And you can even look at things the left does, for example, sanctuary cities, which is something that, you know, when you talk about immigration, a lot of these sanctuary city laws were written in the 1980s and it was, you know, what we're going to do here, we're not going to enforce the federal government coming in and rounding up aliens. They can come in all they want and do it, but we're just not going to use state resources or local resources to do it. And you know what happened? They didn't have the resources to go do it. And so they just, the states just said we're just not going to do these things. And I think that is the key moving forward. We have to think about bottom up, not top down. Washington has lost. It doesn't matter if we elect Ron DeSantis or Donald Trump or take your pick of Republican. It doesn't matter if the Republicans control Congress because we know that they don't overdo. I mean, I mean, look, they're impotent oftentimes in what they even, they don't follow through on anything they say they're going to do most of the time. So reforming Washington D.C. is lost. But you can look at Ron DeSantis and everything. I mean, if you're in Florida right now, would you say you're in Florida? He's doing amazing things there. And Pushing back against the cancel culture and the culture war and everything else. It's amazing what Ron DeSantis is doing. And so that is the key moving forward. I think if we want to take things back in America, if we want to make America great again, it has to come from the bottom up. That's the only way it's going to happen. And the states have all the authority and all the power to do it. It's just a matter of they're willing to do it.
- [51:38]
Lisa Booth
Well, and to your point about Governor DeSantis, I mean, it's not only our own government, like in people within it trying to subvert the will of the American people. We also now have corporations that have come to the party who are are sort of aligning themselves with DC and enforcing their will on Americans and en like the government will on Americans. You know, how do you sort of. What's your take on that? Like, we saw the recent fight with Disney and things of that nature, Big tech, you know, all these different things.
- [52:05]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, again, I think the states can regulate that kind of thing. You know, the Sanchez is going after Disney. Well, okay, if you want all these state kickbacks, well, you have to do. You have to toe the line. And corporations, the idea of a corporate person, I mean, that corporate personhood is the problem there. But the other thing average Americans can do, of course, if you don't like what Coca Cola or Disney or the NFL or what, take your pick of some corporation, you don't like what it was doing. We just stopped buying their products. This is exactly what the founding generation did. We're just going to boycott your stuff. And the left does this pretty effectively at times. Conservatives tend not to follow through. They get ticked off for a little while, then they just keep doing what they're doing. But that economic muscle, I think is something that needs to be said and it needs to be done. We saw it with Disney here in this new movie, the Lightyear movie. Apparently it bombed at the box office because said, we're just not going to tolerate this and we're not going to bring our kids to this. It's not something we want to do. So there is a pushback that can happen with finances if you really want to. And then of course also the states getting involved in saying, if you want to incorporate in our state, then you're not going to do X, Y and Z. And I think that's also a key to reining in some of these corporations as well.
- [53:15]
Lisa Booth
You know, obviously there's a conversation happening in the country Right. Now about the second Amendment, what's the role of the second Amendment or amendment in our lives? A lot of dispute about what the meaning of the second amendment was, what the purpose was from a historical perspective. What was the purpose of the second Amendment and does that still hold true today?
- [53:32]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, of course the purpose of the second Amendment was to ensure that the United States had a militia. Right? I mean, and so when you think about the Constitution, it says very clearly in the Constitution the, without the second Amendment that the central government can arm the militia. Well of course the theory was that they could arm the militia, then they could disarm the militia, and the militia was every able bodied citizen between 18 and 40. And so when the, when there was a discussion of a bill of Rights, it was okay, well look, if they, we need to ensure that they can't disarm us and make us impotent and so that the state can come in or the central authority can come in and simply run roughshod over us. So the states controlled the militia. And of course the states controlled the, essentially the arming of citizens. And so now what's interesting about that, when the, when they first Congress met, they actually passed a militia law that established the fact that every male had to be armed. They had to have a certain, had to have a firearm. They had a certain amount of powder, a certain amount of ammunition, so they could arm the militia, but they could not disarm them. And so the second Amendment is vital to our understanding of what an armed civilian population is there for, which is to prevent centralized tyranny. And I think there's no other way around it. It certainly states can do more than the central government can, but I've always maintained any gun control legislation from the central authority is illegal. The states, there's a lot more wiggle room there depending on the state constitutions. But certainly this is something that the left has politicized again, looking at things from present status instead of thinking about it the way that it's just a natural right to self defense.
- [55:07]
Lisa Booth
Well, and too, I mean the Battle of Lexington Concord didn't, I mean, they were coming for guns.
- [55:12]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Exactly right. I mean they were trying to disarm the militia and that was what was happening in 1775. So they were, they had a central armory there, but that was the idea. You have those in the United States now you have National Guard armory. So imagine the US Government coming in and saying we're going to take this away from you. And of course the National Guard is a whole other monster and what that means changing the nature of the militia there. But. But this is what was happening in 1775. So the idea was, we're going to disarm you, and we're going to take away your firearms so you cannot resist any of our unconstitutional laws. And I think at the end of the day, that's something we have to recognize and realize was one of the main parts of this American war for independence.
- [55:53]
Lisa Booth
Well, and I think what's really important about this conversation with you is I think, look, I was a little bit naive before COVID to be. I mean, I always saw that the government was a bad actor. You know, we've seen numerous examples. I mean, the government's pretty much always lied to us our entire lives. Lives. But I think, for whatever reason, I still was naive to the fact that tyranny could get reborn here in America. Right. Like, we were somewhat immune to tyranny despite, you know, Reagan and beautiful quotes that he's made about freedom being one generation away from extinction. And Covid just really opened my eyes, and I. I think it opened a lot of people's eyes to the fact that, like, tyranny is here, the threat is real, and, you know, we have to fight for liberty in America.
- [56:32]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Absolutely. And I think if you look at when this process really began was in the middle of the 20th century, and basically the Truman administration, we created this deep state that we have, and at the end of World War II, we didn't demobilize. We just kept all the programs in place from the New Deal and also everything that was used to fight the war, and we've just kept that in place. And all of that deep state apparatus and creation of a politicized CIA and a militarized CIA and the FBI and everything that happens there, all of that is a byproduct of extreme centralization during World War II. And it's always been there. It's just that people haven't really recognized or they've lived their lives, and they just think the FBI just hurts everybody else or the CIA hurts everybody else, or the central government hurts everybody else, but not me. But now with COVID they saw. Well, I mean, if they can do these things to these people, they can do it to us, too. And so I think that's really where. Where this. This. This deep state apparatus was in place. And. And it was there just to use. And we saw it during. During 2020 and 2021.
- [57:38]
Lisa Booth
Man, I could honestly talk to you for hours. This is one of the more fascinating conversations I've had. But, you know, in the interest of time, is there anything else you'd like to leave us with before we go?
- [57:48]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, again, I think it's important to understand that the founding generation was committed to independence, committed to decentralization. They were committed to local government. Government, and they were committed to running their own lives. And if we can do any, if we can live any way like the founding generation, it would be that think locally, act locally idea. Make sure you're going to your city council meetings. Make sure you're paying attention to your state legislatures. Make sure you're paying attention to your governors. That's more important than anything else. Vote in those local elections. Get people in those local elections. And in your. We've seen, you know, Texas gop, their platform is now national news because they're thinking about decentralization. They're thinking about what can the local do to ensure that we have the liberties and freedoms we want in the state of Texas. So this is important. Just don't focus on Donald Trump or Joe Biden or whoever's in Congress. Think about these people at the state and local level and get people in office there. Do it yourself that want to, are committed and want to pursue these ideas of independence and decentralization. That at the end of the day, is what we can take away from the founding generation.
- [58:50]
Lisa Booth
Where can people find your work?
- [58:51]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
You can go to Brian McClanahan.com it's B R I O N McClanahan.com and you can find everything that I do there, my podcast, my academy, all the stuff that I do. So it's. I appreciate any of your listeners going out there and checking me out.
- [59:03]
Lisa Booth
Thank you, sir. I appreciate your time. This has been fascinating and I think a really important conversation. So I really appreciate it.
- [59:07]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. So that was awesome.
- [59:21]
Lisa Booth
I hope you guys at home listen to that about the importance of independence, the importance of liberty, what our founding generation believed and why we should still care about those principles Today, as we celebrate Independence Day, as we go out and spend time with friends and family, liberty is the most important. And if we lose it, we lose our country.
- [59:42]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Country.
- [59:42]
Lisa Booth
So I really appreciated his time. I thought he was an amazing guest. Definitely we'll have him back on the show for sure. You guys should go check out his work. And thank you all for, for listening at home. I. I really appreciate you tuning in every Monday and Thursday to the show. Also want to thank my teammate, my producer, John Casio, for working so hard to bring this show to you. And for us. So thanks so much for listening guys. Happy 4th of July. Happy Independence Day.
- [60:09]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
A treasure trove of bananas has been stolen and it's up to Donkey Kong and his buddy Pauline to get them back. This unlikely duo is going on a world smashing adventure using DK's destructive abilities to explore an underground world and the power of Pauline singing to activate wild transformations. Donkey Kong bonanza available July 17 greeted everyone 10 and up only on Nintendo Switch 2 gaming systems sold separately. You're great at protecting your own personal information. You probably even use things like two factor authentication, strong passwords and a vpn. But as much as you try to be in control of how your information is protected, there are lots of places that also have it and they might not be as careful as you are. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second for identity threats. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft. You might not be able to control how others handle your personal information, but you can help protect it with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code IHEART or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off.
- [61:35]
Ryan Seacrest
Terms apply welcome to the W where elite athletes are redefining the game of basketball. From buzzer beating shots, jaw dropping defense and logo threes, the WNBA delivers non stop action and world class talent every game. These athletes don't just just play the game, they elevate it. The biggest stars, The Brightest Age AT&T WNBA All Star 2025 comes to Indianapolis July 18th 19th. Tune into the game July 19th at 8:30pm Eastern Time on ABC. Travel. Smarter, not harder at America's Best Value Inn by Sonesta with convenient locations from coast to coast and value packed comfort at every return. And when you're a Sinesta Travel Pass member, staying at America's Best Value Inn means earning points toward free nights, upgrades and more. Go to sinesta.com to book your stay and unlock their best rates with Sinesta Travel Pass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now@sinesta.com terms and conditions apply.
- [62:36]
Lisa Booth
This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. When we were deciding on our appliances for the house, Samsung was at the top of our list and I love my Samsung appliances especially because they're so reliable. And with my busy schedule, having reliable appliances has been a game changer. It's no wonder Samsung is the number one brand for customer satisfaction. That's why I'm excited to tell you all about Samsung's new line of smart appliances. Featuring their brand new Bespoke AI laundry combo. This incredible magic machine washes and dries in one machine, one load, no transfers, no timers, no rewashing needed. New Bespoke AI appliances. This is home living made simple. For more information, visit samsung.com bespoke 68.
- [63:22]
Dr. Brian McClanahan
Minute cycle based on 27 inch combos based on using a super speed cycle only with a 10 pound doe load cotton 50% plus polyester 50%. Individual results may vary based on actual load content.
- [63:31]
Lisa Booth
This is an I Heart podcast.