The Truth with Lisa Boothe: How China Tried to Shape the 2020 U.S. Election with Gordon Chang

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

Episode: The Truth with Lisa Booth: How China Tried to Shape the 2020 U.S. Election with Gordon Chang
Release Date: June 26, 2025
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
Description: Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics, and current events with intelligence and humor. This episode features Lisa Booth interviewing renowned China expert Gordon Chang about China's global ambitions and attempts to influence the 2020 U.S. election.

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Introduction to the Discussion

[02:48] Lisa Booth:
Lisa Booth welcomes Gordon Chang to "The Truth with Lisa Booth," emphasizing the critical nature of China's global strategies and their impact on the United States. She introduces the main topics, including China's partnership with Iran, espionage activities, bioweapons threats, and attempts to influence the 2020 U.S. election.

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China's Partnership with Iran and Middle Eastern Dynamics

[04:12] Gordon Chang:
Gordon Chang provides an in-depth analysis of the 25-year strategic comprehensive partnership agreement between China and Iran initiated in 2021, outlining China's commitment to invest $400 billion in Iran. He highlights China's initial dominance in the Middle East but notes a recent "stunning reversal of fortunes" where China has lost key allies like Saudi Arabia, Syria, Qatar, and now Iran due to escalating tensions and conflicts.

Notable Quote:
"China is just in disarray in the Middle East, where once it looked like it was going to take over." – Gordon Chang [07:00]

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Impact of U.S. Leadership on China's Influence

[08:11] Lisa Booth:
Lisa discusses how President Trump's diplomacy has strengthened U.S. alliances in the Middle East, countering China's influence. She asks Chang about the repercussions of Trump's strategic moves on China's ambitions.

[09:15] Gordon Chang:
Chang explains the vulnerability of China due to its heavy reliance on oil transit through the Strait of Hormuz, noting Iran's recent move to close the Strait poses a significant threat to China's economy.

Notable Quote:
"China is lost its friends in the Middle East." – Gordon Chang [08:30]

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Chinese Espionage and Migration Acts

[10:49] Gordon Chang:
Chang delves into the surge of Chinese migrants entering the U.S. during the Biden administration, suggesting many were linked to the Chinese military. He warns of potential espionage and imminent threats, including attempts to infiltrate U.S. military bases and infrastructure.

Notable Quote:
"We should assume that one of the first signs that there will be war in East Asia will be actually an attack on the United States from our own soil." – Gordon Chang [12:00]

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China's Attempts to Influence the 2020 U.S. Election

[23:22] Lisa Booth:
Booth brings up FBI Director Cash Patel's declassified documents alleging China's efforts to influence the 2020 election through counterfeit driver's licenses purportedly aimed at supporting Joe Biden.

[24:01] Gordon Chang:
Chang confirms China's extensive involvement in the 2020 election, including support for Biden through social media propaganda, counterfeiting currency, smuggling weapons parts, and encouraging violent protests via tailored content.

Notable Quote:
"One can argue that China elected Joe Biden in 2020." – Gordon Chang [25:11]

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Financial Entanglements and Political Influence

[26:32] Gordon Chang:
Chang discusses the financial ties between the Biden family and China, citing over $2.3 million in questionable funds to Hunter Biden and suggesting these were intended to exert influence over Joe Biden.

Notable Quote:
"They [the Chinese regime] poured something like 2.3 million dollars into the hands of Hunter Biden... they were trying to bribe the Biden family." – Gordon Chang [26:32]

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Agroterrorism and Bioweapons Threats

[30:42] Lisa Booth:
Booth shifts the conversation to China's attempts at agroterrorism, including efforts to smuggle toxic fungi into the U.S. to devastate American agriculture.

[31:16] Gordon Chang:
Chang explains that China’s actions aim to cripple U.S. agriculture through genetically modified pathogens, categorizing these acts as "unrestricted warfare" and "acts of war."

Notable Quote:
"This was an attack on the United States. This was an act of war." – Gordon Chang [33:44]

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Tariffs and Economic Decoupling from China

[39:08] Lisa Booth:
Booth inquires about the ongoing tariff battles between the U.S. and China, and the feasibility of economically disentangling from China.

[39:31] Gordon Chang:
Chang advocates for high tariffs to penalize China for intellectual property theft and predatory trade practices. He supports strategic decoupling, emphasizing the necessity of reducing economic dependency on China.

Notable Quote:
"President Trump needs to actually impose some severe costs on China for violating that agreement." – Gordon Chang [39:31]

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[42:52] Lisa Booth:
As the conversation wraps up, Lisa emphasizes the urgency of addressing China's aggressive strategies and acknowledges President Trump’s role in countering these threats.

[43:02] Gordon Chang:
Chang reiterates the need for a unified American effort to support strong leadership and counter China's pervasive and multifaceted threats.

Notable Quote:
"We are on the edge of pretty catastrophic events and President Trump can stop it, but we need to have the American public behind him." – Gordon Chang [34:13]

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Key Takeaways

• China's Strategic Partnerships: China's alliance with Iran and their impact on Middle Eastern stability.
• Espionage and Infiltration: Increased Chinese espionage activities and concerns about national security in the U.S.
• Election Interference: Alleged Chinese efforts to influence the 2020 U.S. election in favor of Joe Biden.
• Economic Warfare: The importance of tariffs and strategic decoupling to reduce U.S. economic reliance on China.
• Bioweapons and Agroterrorism: China's attempts to undermine U.S. agriculture through biological threats.
• Leadership and Policy: The critical role of strong U.S. leadership in countering China's global ambitions.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "China is just in disarray in the Middle East, where once it looked like it was going to take over." – Gordon Chang [07:00]
• "China has been providing diplomatic support, propaganda support, and China takes more than 90% of Iran's exports of crude oil. You put this all together. China has lost its friends in the Middle East." – Gordon Chang [07:30]
• "One can argue that China elected Joe Biden in 2020." – Gordon Chang [25:11]
• "This was an attack on the United States. This was an act of war." – Gordon Chang [33:44]
• "We are on the edge of pretty catastrophic events and President Trump can stop it, but we need to have the American public behind him." – Gordon Chang [34:13]

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This episode provides a comprehensive examination of China's efforts to expand its global influence, particularly in relation to the United States. Gordon Chang offers a critical perspective on the multifaceted threats posed by China's strategic maneuvers in politics, economy, and security. The discussion underscores the necessity for robust U.S. policies and unified public support to effectively counter and mitigate these challenges.

Transcript

[iHeart Podcast Host]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Karen and Georgia from My favorite Murder. Thanks to Hyundai we got to take a post show drive in the Ionic five.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

We had snacks, laughs and we even recorded a special episode featuring some unforgettable car themed stories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Take a listen. So I'm going to tell you a story today, Karen. It's about a pivotal role that cars played in none other than the Montgomery Bus Boycott.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

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[Lisa Booth]

Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth where we cut through the noise to try to get to the heart of what matters. Today, we're diving into the growing threat of China's global ambitions with renowned China expert Gordon Chang. From China's troubling alliance with Iran, particularly at this time, including suspicious cargo flights and a $400 billion partnership to espionage, to bioweapons, smuggling, to farmland purchases near United States military bases. We're going to explore all of it. Or also, by the way, that recent announcement from FBI Director Cash Patel that China potentially sought to influence the 2020 election. What's that about? What do you need to know? We'll also talk about China's desire and, you know, looking at Taiwan as well. Where does President Trump's resilient and strong attack against Iran leave those ambitions? So we've got a lot to unpack, a lot to get into. And who better to talk about all things China than Gordon Chang? Stay tun. Foreign it's great to have you on the show, first time on the show. Obviously, a lot's been happening in the world. So I'm really interested in getting your perspective on the China element of everything. So I appreciate you making the time.

[Gordon Chang]

Well, thank you so much, Lisa.

[Lisa Booth]

So I want to get into, you know, obviously we've been watching everything happening and unfold in the Middle east over, I guess it's been a week and a half so far. You know, we were joking before. It kind of feels like living in dog years. Everything is just, you know, moving so quickly. But, you know, China and Iran signed a 25 year partnership, this sort of strategic pack. Talk about how does that shape what we're seeing happen in the Middle east, specifically with Iran? Like what is China's role been in this? What is China's role? And you know, does that deal impact anything? Walk us through that.

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah, you're referring to the 2021 agreement, which was 25 year strategic comprehensive partnership agreement, where China, among other things, agreed to invest $400 billion into Iran. The Iranians complain that the Chinese, and this has been traditional, very much what they have done in the past. The Chinese have not honored their part of the bargain. They have not been putting money into Iran as the Iranians expected. But there's a broader context here. And if I can walk back a couple of years, if we go back to March 2023, that's when China brokered an historic pact between Saudi Arabia and Iran for the reestablishment of diplomatic relations and the patching up of ties in general. And then it looked like China was driving events in the region and the US was not that the US Was withdrawing and China was taking over. And this was true even up to July of last year, when China got 14 Palestinian factions to actually travel to the Chinese capital and ink the Beijing declaration, which is a unity pact. And then it just China was dominant. But what's happened since then has been a stunning reversal of fortunes for Beijing. And what we're seeing now is that those two historic accomplishments are in tatters. Saudi Arabia and Iran are very much at odds right now. And that Beijing declaration fell apart because a week afterwards, a bomb in a Hamas guesthouse in Tehran killed Ismail Haniyeh, the political leader of Hamas. So really, China has been in trouble in the last couple months. China has lost Saudi Arabia, it's lost Syria, it's lost Qatar, and it's now because of the war, losing Iran. So China is just in disarray in the Middle east, where once it looked like it was going to take over. Part of this is because President Trump's diplomacy with regard to the region has been spectacularly successful, as it was during his first term. You go back in the first term, we had the four Abraham Accords, two in the Middle east, two in nearby North Africa. Joe Biden came into office pledging to make Saudi Arabia a pariah. So our relations with our traditional Sunni friends in the region just fell apart. But Trump has been able to reverse that damage. He had his historic trip through the three Gulf states last month. And just in general, we see Israel taking apart Iran. One other thing in terms of general background, and that is that China fully backed Iran's assault on Israel starting in October 7th of 2023. We saw China's full in support for the attack on the Jewish state. We know that Iran and its three main terrorist proxies, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthi militia, all have large quantities of Chinese weapons. Iran's own weapons are made with Chinese microchips. China's been providing diplomatic support, propaganda support, and China takes more than 90% of Iran's exports of crude oil. You put this all together. China is lost its friends in the Middle East.

[Lisa Booth]

See, it's interesting how you lay that all out and piece it all together, because, you know, President Trump is constantly underestimated. And in reality, he's very thoughtful. And so, as you pointed out, just even just the recent trip to the Middle east with the Gulf states, of how impactful that has been about trying to sort of isolate China and to reestablish America as, you know, the global superpower and leader. And so he's, he's very smart. And how. And also Iran, or China is Iran's top oil buyer. So how is this war impacting China from an oil perspective?

[Gordon Chang]

Well, I think the Chinese must be in a panic right now. Remember that 50% of China's oil transits the Strait of Hormuz. And just about 36 hours or so ago, the Iranian parliament backed the closing of the Strait. Now, I don't think that will happen, largely because the Chinese are backers of Iran. And this would impact China in a way of basically taking down its economy. It would have to, in very short order, drain its Strategic Petroleum reserve, something that Beijing, which is preparing for war in general, just doesn't want to do. So this is a pressure point, and it is one which the Chinese are very keen, very aware of, and it should be one that we're aware of as well.

[Lisa Booth]

You know, and China uses sort of like, financial investments throughout the world to make inroads and, you know, to sort of establish dominance. We're sort of seeing President Trump, you know, do a lot of that, particularly in the Middle east, with a lot of these financial deals that he announced upon leaving, particularly with Saudi Arabia and Qatar as well. You know, as he said, the path to the Middle east is through commerce, not chaos. You know, I wanted to ask you, under the Biden administration, we saw a lot of Chinese nationals try to cross the southern border and also enter into the country as well. Why are they doing that? What is the purpose? What's the intention behind that?

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah, during the Biden years, we saw this almost unprecedented, actually unprecedented surge of Chinese migrants into the US Primarily through the southern border. And in the beginning of this surge, it really looked like these were desperate Chinese who wanted to live in our country. But towards the middle and end of this, the composition of the Chinese migrants changed, and it became, I think, ominous. What we were seeing were, towards the middle and end of the Biden years, packs of Chinese males of 4 to 15, military age, traveling without family members, some of them pretending not to speak English. Border Patrol knows that some of them had links to the Chinese military. And in the very last months of the Biden administration, some of these packs were coming across Lisa, with identical kit. So that gives us a hint of what's going on. Also, we have a problem in our northern border. So in February of last year, Border Patrol apprehended three Chinese migrants trying to sneak in under the COVID of darkness into Maine. What made this particularly disturbing was that there was a fourth Chinese national on our side, again, a migrant who was Obviously there by prearrangement to help them get in. Now, if you're desperate Chinese who wants to live in a free society, the first thing you do is you surrender to border patrol, try to get yourself into the asylum queue. Also get benefits from New York City and other places. So if you're coming in and you're trying to avoid detection, which is what these three were trying to do, then you're coming here for some nefarious purpose. We know that there has been as this migrant surge has occurred, there's also been a big uptick in in Chinese nationals trying to sneak into our military bases, some of them successfully. We have also seen illicit Chinese surveillance of our military facilities and Chinese surveillance of our infrastructure. So clearly what's occurring is that these elements, Chinese military, maybe Ministry of State Security, they are studying our patterns. They're looking for our vulnerabilities. In other words, they're planning to strike. So we should assume that one of the first signs that there will be war in East Asia will be actually an attack on the United States from our own soil. And by the way, Lisa, this will be the first time since the War of 1812 that Americans will have had to fight a foreign enemy on their own soil in a sustained battle. So let's be sure that we understand what's coming because all the elements for the attack are already in place.

[Lisa Booth]

Got to take a quick commercial break. More with Gordon Chang on the other side.

[Public Investing Representative]

And here we have a specimen from the early 2000s, a legacy investing platform. Please don't touch the exhibit, folks.

[Lisa Booth]

It could crash.

[Public Investing Representative]

Ready to step out of the financial history [e-mail] you can invest in almost everything. Stocks, bonds, options, and more. You could even put your cash to work at an industry leading 4.1% APY. Leave your clunky, outdated platform behind. Go to public.com and fund your account in five minutes or less. Paid for by Public Investing, Inc. Member FINRA and SIDC. Full disclosures at public.com disclosures@amica insurance.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

We know it's more than just a car or a house. It's the four wheels that get you where you're going and the four walls that welcome you home. When you combine auto and home insurance with Amica, we'll help protect it all. And the more you cover, the more you can save. Amica empathy is our best policy.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, it's Karen and Georgia from my favorite Murder. Thanks to Hyundai, we got to take a post show drive in the Ionic five.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

We had snacks, laughs and we even recorded a special episode featuring some unforgettable car themed stories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Take a listen. The Montgomery Bus Boycott. Success was dependent on the action and dedication of many individuals, of course. But today we're going to focus on the work of one of those people in particular, a woman in her 30s and yes, I love her name, it's Georgia Gilmore.

[iHeart Podcast Host]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[iHeart Podcast Host]

Right? This episode is brought to you by the 2025 Hyundai Ioniq 5.

[Lisa Booth]

How does President Trump's response to Iran and dropping those bombs in Iran and sort of like the show of force and the fact that we now have leadership in the United States again and that he means red lines and when he says 60 days, 60 days is meaningful, you know what message does that send China? Like, does that make them less hesitant to try to do anything under President Trump's tenure? You know, would it be? Are they more wait and see, you know, kind of see what happens with the next election? Or, you know, from what you laid out about this attack from China, how does President Trump's, you know, peace through strength and this response impact China's decision making?

[Gordon Chang]

That's the most important question that anyone is asking. And unfortunately, of course, we don't know the answer. I think that in the Middle East, China doesn't have the firepower, either literally or figuratively, to challenge the United States, but it does have the ability to help Iran by disrupting East Asia. On the 19th of this month, China began air incursions against Taiwan, which had been quiet up to then. We saw, Starting on the 19th, the 74 Chinese planes get near Taiwan's airspace. 61 of them cross the median line. That's the line down the middle of the Taiwan Strait, which has generally been considered the unofficial border between China and Taiwan. So China sending planes east of the median line is considered to be a provocative act. And since that time, China's continued the air incursions. The number of planes that have gotten near Taiwan is now up to about 90 or so. And at the same time, on the 19th, that same day that the air campaign started, the Philippine Coast Guard announced that there were more than 50 of China's maritime militia boats flooding into Philippine waters at Iroquois Reef in the South China Sea. So this is China maybe trying to take advantage of what's going on in the rest of the world or trying to back off the Trump administration. But there's one other thing, though, and this is showing what you were talking about before, about the effectiveness of Trump policy, and that is on the 21st, the day that Israel started the. That we. That we bombed those three nuclear sites in Iran. Reuters reported that the Pentagon told the news service that the United states was sending B2s to Guam. And at the time, everybody, including me, thought that this was the final warning to Iran. But as we look back at the sequence of events, we can understand that B2S in Guam would not be of military relevance for an attack on Iran for a lot of reasons, but they would be of relevance for backing off China. So I think that. That the Pentagon leaking this to Reuters was essentially Trump's way of telling the Chinese, don't even think about it. I don't know that. But when we look at what's occurred, it's appeared that that was President Trump's message to the Chinese leadership is China.

[Lisa Booth]

Is it fair to say that China is somewhat cautious? Like, you know, they're not as.

[Public Investing Representative]

A.

[Lisa Booth]

Little bit more cautious than, you know, Iran, which, you know, they're kind of like crazy. And, you know what I mean? Is that fair to say that they're a little bit more thoughtful about things? A little more cautious?

[Gordon Chang]

They are thoughtful, but sometimes their thinking leads them to do things which are really dangerous. And we've seen this with Chinese provocations against South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, and even far away Australia. And what I worry about is that one of those low level provocations spirals out of control. And if it does, then we probably are headed for war in East Asia, because the Chinese political system is now configured so that only the most hostile answers are considered acceptable, which means that China can't deal with the rest of the world in a responsible way if there is a crisis and China is provoking these crises, just basically hoping that everybody backs off. But there could be clearly miscalculation. And we have seen very belligerent Chinese activity in the skies over East Asia, challenging Australians and us, our planes. And one of those incidents could go wrong just as it went wrong on April 1, 2001, the EP3 plane incident. And that incident was solved only because the Bush administration made unacceptable concessions to China. And so we disused it by basically surrendering. I don't think that we're going to do that again. We shouldn't have done it then. That opened the way, I think, to showing China that belligerence works. We can't afford to do that again. And I hope President Trump would not adopt such a submissive position as George W. Bush did in 2001. But if we don't, it means there will be a crisis, the crisis will heat up, and this will be one of those consequential moments in history.

[Lisa Booth]

Well, you know, we've got the right man in charge for these moments, in my opinion.

[Gordon Chang]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Lisa Booth]

FBI Director Cash Patel sort of dropped an interesting bomb earlier this month, declassifying a 2020 internal FBI intelligence document and sharing it with the Senate Judiciary Committee. And it claims that the Chinese Communist party produced counterfeit U.S. driver's licenses and shipped them to the United states during the 2020 election with the intent to try to help Joe Biden, allegedly. What do you know about that? Does that add up? And to what extent, to what extent did China try to influence the outcome of the 2020 election?

[Gordon Chang]

We know in general, China was very involved in the presidential election in 2020. It supported Joe Biden over Bernie Sanders in the Democratic primaries and it supported Biden over Trump in the general election. And China went all in on social media, both that we could see and that which was meant not to be seen. We know from New York Times reporting that China was using text messages spreading false and very damaging rumors about President Trump, especially in connection with the Stafford Act. But China used Twitter, Facebook and its other social media media instruments and they really went after Trump. We saw some really dangerous, very provocative acts on the part of China in 2020. They were counterfeiting U.S. currency and trying to smuggle it into the U.S. they were smuggling in automatic weapons parts, which takes basically permits someone to convert.

[LifeLock Representative]

A.

[Gordon Chang]

Gun into an automatic weapon. We also saw something even worse, and that was Radio Free Asia reported in August 2020 that an intelligence unit of the People's Liberation army actually based themselves in the now closed Houston consulate. And from there they used big data to identify Americans likely to participate in violent protests. And then they sent those Americans videos on how to riot. And we've learned from related reporting that those tailor made videos were TikToks. Also, there was a Chinese official who openly on Twitter in October of 2020 advocated Americans to commit acts of violence and specifically to throw petrol bombs on American streets. These are acts of war. And so when you put that Kash Patel's revelation of the fake driver's license, it fits within a pattern. And that pattern was very effective. One can argue that China elected Joe Biden in 2020. So we've got to understand the significance of this.

[Lisa Booth]

Does China own the Biden family? Considering the financial entanglements, it certainly influences the Biden family.

[Gordon Chang]

What we know I can't get into the minds of Joe Biden, but you can see what happened. The Chinese regime poured something like 2.3 or so million dollars into the hands of Hunter Biden. And he did so under circumstances that scream corruption. So for instance, and this is admitted by Hunter Biden's legal team, that they received money as good faith seed funds. Now, in commercial context, nobody would pay money as a good faith seed fund less of all the Chinese unless they were trying to bribe the Biden family. So yes, I think that they certainly influenced the Biden family and influenced Joe Biden's decisions. And of course there was the money through the Penn center at the University of Pennsylvania. I'm sure that there was money that leaked in through other ways. We know the Chinese themselves believe that they bought the Biden family. Chinese professor De Dongsheng, in November of 2020 gave a live stream lecture throughout China that talked about China's attempts to influence the Biden family. Just to give you a sense of what he said, he said basically no American could stand up to the Chinese because they could buy every American. And he said De Dongsheng said that China's traditional means of exerting influence at the highest levels of the American political system had been broken because Trump during his time in first term in office wasn't listening to Wall street or Henry Kissinger. But that the Chinese then remember, this is after the 2020 election. The Chinese were then looking again to re establish those links. And DI Dongsheng got his biggest laugh of his lecture when he mentioned the Chinese characters for Hunter Biden. So we know what the Chinese felt about this and how they looked at.

[Lisa Booth]

It when we also all know about Representative Swalwell and his relationship and then also about Dianne Feinstein employing a Chinese spy as a driver for I think it was like 20 years or something. So if that's just what we know about, then you know what else has happened that we don't know about. Right.

[Gordon Chang]

So absolutely. And, and Swalwell is, is a really instructive case. I mean, I, I don't know what's in Swalwell's mind, so I don't assume that he's, well, he's a man.

[Lisa Booth]

So I think I have an idea.

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah. Well, let me say this. China's Ministry of State Security in the form of that very, should I say, good looking, attractive agent, Christine Fong, first contacted Swalwell not when he was on the House Intelligence Committee where he would have been of great benefit for China. The Ministry of State Security first contacted Swalwell when he was sitting on the City Council of Dublin City, California. And that means I can't believe that Swalwell was the only person being groomed, because clearly he was being groomed. I'm not saying he, he gave into and gave valuable information to China, but I am saying this is not about Swalwellness so much. This is about the China's pervasive efforts because there must be dozens, maybe hundreds of swal wells in our country where China has contacted them at a very early stage in their careers. And we know that Christine Fong, she was not partisan. She was up to corrupting Republicans as well as she in fact did. So this is, this is a bipartisan problem. And of course we have had some of former Republican officials lobby directly for China, which is disgraceful. So this is a bipartisan problem. We Got a problem on both sides of the political dividend.

[Lisa Booth]

We've also seen another, you know, some really troubling incidents with agroterrorism concerns and bioweapons. I know you've written about it and you've raised the alarm about it with some Chinese nationals being caught trying to smuggle in some toxic fungus to into the United States. Walk us through that. You know, what do you think the broader strategy is for China here? How much of a threat are we already facing with this? And kind of, what does it all mean?

[Gordon Chang]

China means to destroy American agriculture and American ranching. And this is part of their just unrestricted warfare campaign, their total war against the United States. I mean, this month, three Chinese researchers risked their careers by trying to smuggle in biological agents into the United States. The first two who were charged were trying to, were working with a fungus. And, you know, people can say, well, this, this fungus is common throughout the world, so this can't be a big deal. Well, yes, it can be a big deal if this fungus was genetically modified, which I believe it must have been, because why would they risk their careers to do this? So if China is able to own farmland, which it does, it would be able to take a genetically modified agent which is probably more resistant to pesticides, was probably easier spread and decimate American agriculture. This head blight that this fungus goes after, wheat, barley, I think it's rice, maize, and it causes reproductive problems and vomiting in animals and humans. This has got to be seen in the context that for at least a half decade, China's been trying to plant invasive species in our countries. So in 2020, Americans in all 50 states received seeds from Chinese parties unsolicited. And so that is a real warning sign. And that efforts continue because this year, Temu, the online Chinese retailer, was caught sending seeds unsolicited into the US and in one case, Chinese party sent in a container of unknown liquid to an American unsolicited. So, yeah, they're trying to take down our agriculture and our ranching.

[Lisa Booth]

Is that terrorism?

[Gordon Chang]

Well, the FBI, the Eastern District of Michigan, called the fungus that was brought in an agro terrorist agent. I'm not so sure that terror, you know, terror, when I think of terror, I think of physical violence, bombings.

[Lisa Booth]

Yeah.

[Gordon Chang]

But this was, this was worse, in a sense, more dangerous to the United States than an act of terrorism or most acts of terrorism. So this was in a, this was an attack on the United States. This was an act of war. And that's, I think that's the best way to characterize it, you know, to put this into context. And sorry for going on here, but I want to.

[Lisa Booth]

No, it's interesting. Please.

[Gordon Chang]

In May 2019, People's Daily, which is the most authoritative publication in China, carried a landmark editorial that declared a, quote, unquote, people's war on us. We Americans didn't notice because we don't think very much of propaganda. But this phrase, people's war, has great importance in Communist Party thought. And in 2023, PLA Daily, which is the main propaganda organ of the Chinese military, helpfully define people's war as quote, unquote, total war. We know that China, although it denies it, China has a doctrine of unrestricted warfare which comes from the title of that 1999 book by then two Chinese air force colonels which argued that China could do anything to take down the US and you mentioned terrorism. That book talks about Bin laden hitting the U.S. remember, this is two years before 9 11. China publicly talks about getting bin Laden to attack us. And by the way, China's had at that time had very strong relations with the Taliban in Afghanistan. So yeah, we have to understand that we're under attack and these are acts of war. And so far, no president has taken the necessary steps to protect us from this with the vigor and determination that's necessary. And I hope President Trump starts to take more determined steps against China because we are on the edge of pretty catastrophic events and President Trump can stop it, but we need to have the American public behind him. So this should be an all of society effort.

[Lisa Booth]

Quick break. Stay with us.

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[Gordon Chang]

You see a headline but don't have.

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[Lisa Booth]

And then before we go, I've got to get your take on the tariffs back and forth between President Trump and China, sort of. What's your broader perspective on what has taken place so far? And also, where is that heading? How much can we extract from China? Sort of. How do you see this playing out?

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah, I believe that we need to have high tariffs on China as to impose costs for the theft of US Intellectual property and for increasingly predatory trade practices. So I was very happy to see President Trump put tariffs on China, a general 145% rate, in some cases 245%. When you added the other tariffs on I didn't like the May 12 agreement that was announced The Chinese have violated that agreement with continuing its ban on exports of rare earths to American companies. President Trump needs to actually impose some severe costs on China for violating that agreement. So far he hasn't. And I'm looking forward to him pivoting because the Chinese have taken their measure of him. And I'm not saying this is right, because I don't believe it's right, but the Chinese believe that they can force Trump to back down on things like TikTok and tariffs. And so Trump needs to disabuse them of that notion, because if he doesn't, this is going to work out very badly for us. I believe President Trump actually believes in tariffs. We know that during the campaign he was talking about McKinley and the history of tariffs, which means he really believes it. So I hope that he gets back to his instincts and hits the Chinese hard for continuing. For their continuing to hit us.

[Lisa Booth]

Yeah, I mean, he's been talking about them since like the 70s or the 80s, I think. And then, last question before we go. What is possible in trying to untangle ourselves from China's economy? You know, what is doable? What is possible? And does President Trump have interest in doing that?

[Gordon Chang]

You mean supply chains?

[Lisa Booth]

Pardon? Sorry, yeah, just trying. Just trying to untangle. Obviously, we're so reliant on China from an economic standpoint. Obviously. We just talked about tariffs as well. Well, but like, how do we decouple from China? Is it even possible? And what does that look like?

[Gordon Chang]

It certainly is possible. I mean, we had a. We had no trade relationship with China and we built one. So if it can be built, it can be taken apart. Treasury Secretary Bessant has actually said that we need strategic decoupling. In other words, things like rare earths and other things that we absolutely depend upon. I think President Trump really believes that there should be a bigger decoupling, though he has not, in fact said that. But clearly his actions have started the decoupling process. And he did that in his first term with the tariffs that he imposed in 2018. So clearly this is something. This is long held views. And so I do believe that we will see further decoupling. And part of it, you know, Lisa, is not just us, it's the Chinese pushing American companies out of China. So it's both push and pull. And I believe it will happen, especially because as China threatens to go to war, even C Suites are going to understand that they've got to get their companies out of China.

[Lisa Booth]

Really interesting stuff. Scary, but very interesting. We appreciate you sharing your expertise with us, Gordon Chang. Really, really interesting. Really appreciate your time.

[Gordon Chang]

Well, I really appreciate it Lisa and thanks so much and stay safe.

[Lisa Booth]

That was Gordon Chang. Appreciate him for making the time to come on the show. Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, but you can listen throughout the week. Until next time.

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[Gordon Chang]

I'm Molly Roberts.

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And I'm Drew Goins. Each Friday on Impromptu, we talk through the questions we can't stop thinking about.

[Lisa Booth]

Do we need to rethink how much we drink?

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Why are companies really asking workers to.

[Lisa Booth]

Come back to does boycotting a business actually work?

[Amica Insurance Representative]

Should we quit social media?

[Lisa Booth]

We're here when the news gets personal.

[Gordon Chang]

And the headlines hit home.

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Join Molly and me every Friday on Impromptu from Washington Post Opinions.

[Gordon Chang]

Find Impromptu wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lisa Booth]

This is an iHeart podcast.