The Tudor Dixon Podcast: Enemies Within: China’s Quiet Invasion with Gordon Chang

Summary

Episode Summary: The Tudor Dixon Podcast: Enemies Within: China’s Quiet Invasion with Gordon Chang

Release Date: May 28, 2025
Host: Tudor Dixon
Guest: Gordon Chang, Gatestone Institute Senior Fellow and author of Plan China's Project to Destroy America

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1. Introduction and Context

Timestamp: [03:14]

Tudor Dixon opens the episode by welcoming Gordon Chang, emphasizing the urgency of discussing China's growing influence and its covert strategies to undermine the United States. Dixon highlights the prevalence of tariffs on Chinese goods, particularly affecting industries like automotive manufacturing in Michigan, and sets the stage for a deep dive into China's multifaceted invasion strategies.

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2. Economic Warfare: Tariffs and Trade Imbalance

Timestamp: [03:45 - 04:13]

Dixon brings up the topic of tariffs imposed on Chinese products, questioning why they are higher compared to other countries. Gordon Chang responds by reframing the situation, stating, “most Americans assume this is peacetime. ... we should consider ourselves not in peace, but at war” (04:13).

Chang explains that China has declared a "people's war" on the U.S., justifying the use of tariffs as necessary measures to protect American society. He acknowledges that while tariffs may be unpopular and economically painful, they are essential sacrifices to counter China's aggressive strategies.

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3. Intellectual Property Theft and Technological Espionage

Timestamp: [06:21 - 07:15]

Chang delves into China's rampant intellectual property (IP) theft, estimating losses to the U.S. at around half a trillion dollars annually, as per former Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe (06:21). He emphasizes the importance of protecting IP to maintain the incentive for American innovation, arguing, “we've got to protect it because the reason why we have it is because inventors feel that they have protection for their work” (06:45).

Chang criticizes technological companies' desire to utilize others' IP without proper safeguards and advocates for strengthening IP laws to prevent further economic exploitation by China.

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4. The Risk of Cyber Attacks and Physical Infrastructure Vulnerabilities

Timestamp: [07:15 - 09:33]

Dixon raises concerns about China's capacity to disrupt U.S. infrastructure through technology, citing incidents where Chinese-made power inverters were remotely disabled in the U.S. (08:07). Chang confirms this vulnerability, explaining, “China's been able to do this” and elaborates on how components like modems in cranes at U.S. ports can be exploited to cause significant damage (08:26).

He warns of the potential for larger-scale cyberattacks that could target critical infrastructure such as energy grids and ports, effectively crippling the nation’s functionality.

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5. Biological Weapons and the COVID-19 Pandemic

Timestamp: [09:33 - 15:35]

The conversation shifts to biological threats, with Dixon referencing an incident in Reedley, California, where a Chinese biological weapons facility was discovered (12:27). Chang discusses the dangers of genetically engineered pathogens, mentioning, “Ebola has a natural fatality rate of 50%... if the Chinese can figure out how to make it more transmissible, more contagious, then they will have a weapon that will be able to kill more massive numbers of Americans” (12:27).

Chang asserts that the Wuhan Institute of Virology may have been a military facility and suggests that the COVID-19 pandemic was either a result of negligence or a deliberate act by Xi Jinping to weaken global powers by spreading the virus beyond China’s borders.

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6. U.S. Policies and Responses to Chinese Aggression

Timestamp: [15:35 - 22:34]

Dixon criticizes the Biden administration for not holding China accountable for the pandemic and other misdeeds, contrasting it with former President Trump's more aggressive stance against China. Chang agrees, pointing out that the U.S. rejoined the World Health Organization (WHO) under Biden, which he argues facilitated the spread of COVID-19 (15:11).

Chang contends that Trump’s withdrawal from the WHO was a strategic move to prevent China from manipulating global health responses to their advantage. He calls for stronger measures and possible reparations to deter China from future biological and cyber threats.

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7. The Role of Chinese Students and Espionage

Timestamp: [32:25 - 34:43]

The discussion turns to the presence of Chinese students in U.S. educational institutions. Chang highlights that a significant portion of these students may be involved in espionage, compelled by Chinese laws like the 2017 National Intelligence Law, which mandates espionage activities if ordered by the Chinese government (34:44). He mentions that approximately 13% of the 277,000 Chinese students in the U.S. are estimated to engage in espionage.

Chang emphasizes the need for the U.S. to dismantle Chinese surveillance and coercion networks within educational institutions to prevent intellectual and technological theft.

---

8. Cultural Challenges and Societal Responses in the U.S.

Timestamp: [40:40 - 47:18]

Dixon expresses concern over the American cultural resistance to acknowledging and combating espionage and infiltration, citing the risk of racism accusations when targeting Chinese nationals. Chang responds by clarifying that combating Chinese espionage is a matter of national security, not racism. He states, “We have dangerous elements in our country, and we have to either imprison or expel them because ... they can create the worst outcomes for us” (36:00).

Chang argues that China exploits American values of inclusivity and freedom to mask its espionage activities, urging Americans to overcome cultural biases to effectively protect the nation.

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9. Conclusion and Takeaways

Timestamp: [47:18 - 48:22]

In the concluding segment, Dixon and Chang discuss the broader implications of China’s strategies on American society and global stability. Chang warns that without decisive actions, such as imposing hefty penalties on China and strengthening national defenses against biological and cyber threats, the U.S. remains vulnerable to further invasions.

Chang reiterates the urgency of the situation, stating, “we’re going to lose our country” if the U.S. fails to address these threats head-on (41:37).

Dixon underscores the cultural and political challenges in implementing these measures but acknowledges the necessity of confronting hard truths to safeguard national security.

Notable Quote:

“We should consider ourselves not in peace, but at war. And in war we have to take extraordinary measures to protect our society.”
— Gordon Chang, 04:13

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Key Insights and Conclusions

• China’s Multifaceted Invasion: Beyond economic measures, China employs intellectual property theft, cyberattacks, and biological threats to undermine the U.S.
• Economic Impact: Tariffs, while economically painful, are viewed as necessary wartime measures to protect American industries and technological innovations.
• Cyber and Physical Vulnerabilities: Chinese-manufactured components in critical infrastructure present significant risks of remote sabotage and large-scale disruptions.
• Biological Warfare Concerns: The COVID-19 pandemic is framed as either a result of negligence or deliberate actions by China to weaken global powers, with potential for more dangerous biological threats in the future.
• Espionage and Infiltration: A notable portion of Chinese students in the U.S. may be involved in espionage activities, necessitating stronger countermeasures within educational institutions.
• Cultural and Political Barriers: American values of inclusivity and fear of racism pose challenges to effectively combating Chinese infiltration and espionage.
• Urgency for Action: Without decisive and possibly drastic measures, the U.S. risks further destabilization and loss of national security.

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This episode provides a comprehensive analysis of China's strategic maneuvers to weaken the United States from within, highlighting the urgent need for robust countermeasures and a re-evaluation of U.S. policies towards China. Through Gordon Chang’s expert insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the covert threats posed by China and the critical importance of addressing them to preserve national integrity and security.

Transcript

[Tudor Dixon]

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[Tudor Dixon]

Thanks for joining us on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. I want to jump right in today because we've got Gordon Chang with us. He is a Gatestone Institute Senior Fellow and the author of Plan China's Project to Destroy America. This is one of many books, though. Gordon, I'm so glad you're today because obviously China is top of mind for everybody in Washington, D.C. and for those of us on the outside, we're kind of watching everything, all the strategy play out and I know you have the inside track.

[Gordon Chang]

Well, thank you so much, Tudor. And happy Memorial Day.

[Tudor Dixon]

Yes, happy Memorial Day to you as well. So as we watch what's going on, I mean, there's so much because we've got the tariffs and certainly in Michigan, there are a lot of people that are concerned about the tariffs in general because a lot of the automotive parts come from China or they go back and forth. So there's great concern over tariffs on China being greater than any other country. But can you kind of break down for our audience why that is?

[Gordon Chang]

Well, most Americans assume this is peacetime. And yes, we're not actually in a war with China. China, however, is in a war with us. They've declared a people's war on US in May 2019. And that is propaganda. But for the Communist Party, it's important words. It has a phra which has residents that goes back before the establishment of the People's Republic. So we should consider ourselves not in peace, but at war. And in war we have to take extraordinary measures to protect our society. So I can understand why people don't like the tariffs and they certainly are going to hurt Americans. But this is going to be a sacrifice that all of us are going to make if we want to preserve our society.

[Tudor Dixon]

Well, I think a lot of people don't like them because we've especially the younger generation has grown up with China making so much of our products. And it's so quick, it's so easy, it's so cheap, it all comes through Amazon and gets delivered right to your door. I found my kids were suddenly talking about Temu and Sheen and all of these things, and they wanted to order all this stuff. And they had actually gone through their grandmother and, oh, can you get all this stuff for us? It was interesting, though, because it came to the house, the quality was so bad, even the girls were like, wait, what is this? This isn't what I got. No, actually, it is what you got. But I think that they see it from that standpoint. They don't understand how this impacts pharmaceuticals and intellectual property and all of these things. And we saw recently that. What's the guy's name? Who. Dorsey. Who. Jack Dorsey, who had. Who was the prior owner of Twitter. He came out and he said he wants to get rid of all IP laws altogether. He was talking from the standpoint of technology and AI and all of that. People are so ignorant, though, they have no idea what that kind of thing could do to the United States of America with China being filled with pirates as it is.

[Gordon Chang]

Well, yes, one of China's trade tactics and one of the reasons why it's become so successful so fast is because it steals US Intellectual property. It steals it to the tune of about a half trillion dollars a year. That was the estimate of John Ratcliffe when he was Director of national intelligence in December 2020. Now, we can argue whether it's $100 billion more or less. But the point is, this is America's future. And while, yes, the tech companies want to be able to use other people's intellectual property, we've got to protect it. Because the reason why we have it is because inventors feel that they have protection for their work. And that means that they have an incentive to actually create something. So it's really important that we strengthen intellectual property laws, not weaken them.

[Tudor Dixon]

And I do think that we have to be prepared for what is coming when it comes to AI and making sure that we are making sure that the companies that are working on that are safe. We saw Donald Trump go to the Middle East. He made a big deal on not only AI, but data centers, all of this stuff that powers that type of technology, which could be the technology of the future, whether it is making movies or war. And you've talked before about the ability of China to shut things off through technology, shutting us down completely. A war. Like you said, people don't think of us as being at war, but there is the possibility of coming in and shutting down our electronics, shutting down our energy. If we keep. We don't have an energy supply. We are a third world country.

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah. This is not a theoretical concern because recently power inverters, which are those devices that connect solar farms and wind turbines to our grid, they were shut down remotely from China. And China's been able to do this. And so this is when was that?

[Tudor Dixon]

Where, where were we seeing that?

[Gordon Chang]

This was reported by Reuters that the Chinese shut this down remotely. They didn't report where in the United States, but they reported that it was in the United States where this occurred. So this is something that we have to be acutely concerned about because there are all sorts of devices that been made in China, shipped to the United States which have components that allow the Chinese to remotely control them. So for instance, those big ship to shore cranes at our ports, more than 80% of them come from one company in Shanghai. And a year or so ago the Wall Street Journal reported that some of these cranes had modems that were not part of the original specifications and which were not part of help the cranes operate. So they shouldn't have been there, but they were. And those modems gave China the ability to remotely access those cranes. They could disable them or maybe cause those cranes to create damage at our ports.

[Tudor Dixon]

Well, I mean, doesn't that just kind of reinforce the idea that we should be more self reliant than having all of this stuff constantly shipped in?

[Gordon Chang]

Absolutely. You know another example, drones, there's one Chinese company from Shenzhen DJI that makes about 70% of the world's drones. Those drones can be used to basically surveil because wherever that drone goes, China conceives now people can disable some of those features that allowed China to do that. But if they don't disable those features, then essentially every drone that has those features operating is a surveillance tool for Beijing. So they are mapping our country. You know, we know that all of these Chinese migrants that have come in, they've come in at a time where we've seen Chinese nationals, an increased tempo of them trying to get onto our military facilities. We've seen them with illegal surveillance of our bases. So they're looking at our vulnerabilities, they're seeing our patterns and essentially this is planning for attack and we should assume that this will occur.

[Tudor Dixon]

When you say planning for attack, do you actually mean a physical attack, that they will come on U.S. soil?

[Gordon Chang]

Well, they're already here. So we believe that there are People's Liberation army and probably Ministry of State Security agents in large numbers in the United States planning attacks on America. So one of the first instances where we will have a hint that China plans to use force in East Asia will be attacks in the United States going after our grid, going after starting wildfires, blowing up dams, explosions at shopping centers to create terrorists. All of these things can occur. And Tudor, in December 2022, an alert building inspector in Reedley, California, which is near Fresno in the Central Valley, she discovered what is a Chinese biological weapons facility. And inside, federal and state authorities found at least 20 pathogens, probably more, including the one for ebola, and almost 1,000 mice that have been genetically engineered to spread disease. I mention Ebola because we know that researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology are now studying Ebola, which means they are studying how to weaponize it. Ebola has a natural fatality rate of 50%. The good thing about Ebola is that it's not readily transmissible. But if the Chinese can figure out how to make it more transmissible, more contagious, then they will have a weapon that will be able to kill more massive numbers of Americans.

[Tudor Dixon]

That is shocking to me. It makes me think about the fact that Joe Biden spent four years after, through the pandemic and after the pandemic not, not holding China accountable, having no discussions with China on this. In fact, almost, I would say defending China in many different instances when people were saying, wait a minute, why aren't we holding them accountable to the pandemic? Why aren't we holding them accountable to this trade imbalance? Now you have Donald Trump, WHO has implemented the tariff, and I think you've pointed out that he, he did offer China an off ramp to the tariff war, but they decided they didn't want that. There's, that's still a back and forth right now with the tariffs on Chinese products. But when you talk about what I mean, essentially you're talking about terrorist attacks and the bioweapons. Is there going to be someone. Will Donald Trump hold China accountable for the pandemic?

[Gordon Chang]

Well, I hope so. First of all, in his first term, he withdrew from the World Health Organization. The reason why that was important was that China used the WHO to spread the disease beyond China's borders. Twice In January of 2020, the WHO propagated China's narrative, which senior doctors knew was, senior doctors at the WHO knew was not true. China's narrative was that SARS CoV2, the pathogen that causes COVID19, was not readily transmissible human to human. So There is a January 9 statement and a January 14 tweet from the WHO which said, don't worry about this, that was at a critical time. And that lulled health officials around the world, including those in America, not to take precautions that they otherwise would have. Which means that a disease that should have been confined to the central part of China became a global pandemic. That 7 million people outside of China were killed by a disease, and that is 1.2 million Americans. The reason why all of this is important is that Joe Biden, when he became president, he put the US Back into the who, the organization that helped spread this disease. And the reason why all of this is critical right now is that China knows killed 7 million people, all foreigners, who now there's no deterrent for spreading the next disease that Chinese technicians and scientists are cooking up in labs like the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

[Tudor Dixon]

So do you think that that was a planned test?

[Gordon Chang]

No, I actually, my guess is that the Wuhan Institute of Virology was a military facility. That disease, my guess, I mean, a lot of Chinese nationals will tell you it was a test, that they deliberately spread it into China to kill off old people and then rest of it? I don't think so. I think what happened was they were careless at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. And we know that even before the pandemic. And what happened is this disease got out into the Chinese public. Xi Jinping then made a decision. He knew that his country was being devastated by Covid. He wanted to even the playing field. China has something called comprehensive national power. It's a series of metrics that measure the. The strength of countries. And there's two ways to become stronger. One of them is you make yourself stronger. The other is you make others weaker. And that's what Xi Jinping did. He did. Xi Jinping did two things. For at least five weeks in December 2019 and January 2020, he told the world that this was not a contagious disease when he knew that it was highly transmissible human to human. And then while he was locking down his own country. Lockdowns are controversial, but by locking down his own country, he was telling the world he thought that was an effective way of stopping disease. So while he was locking down China, he was forcing other countries to take passengers from China without restrictions. Tudor, you put those two things together, and it shows that the spread of COVID 19 beyond China's borders was deliberate. So I believe that Xi Jinping decided that he was going to weaken the rest of the world by spreading this disease outside of China.

[Tudor Dixon]

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[Tudor Dixon]

China has a weakened economy already. I mean, we've heard rumblings that they, they are not economically sound right now. Why? I mean, obviously coming out of the pandemic, that's not good. But why not negotiate with Donald Trump if you're already in a poor position economically? Isn't a trade war just going to hurt them even more?

[Gordon Chang]

Yes, it will hurt them even more. And the Chinese economy, I believe now is contracting. And we can see this from, for instance, price data from February, March and April, which shows that China's in a deflationary spiral. Deflation is an economy killer and is inconsistent with China's reports of robust economic growth. The to answer your question, I think that Xi Jinping has put himself into a position where he has to, has to. He has to do the worst thing possible. And the reason is for half a decade at least, he's been telling the Chinese people and other senior Chinese leaders that due to his policies that China has surpassed the United States. Now, he can't be seen negotiating with the United States in good faith because he's told everybody he doesn't have to. So I think that he has configured the Chinese political system so that only the most hostile answers are considered to be acceptable. And he cannot deal in good faith with us. And by the way, he isn't on March, on May 12, China and the United States jointly negotiated and announced an agreement, and China has already violated that agreement. So really what we're talking about is a Xi Jinping who can't deal cooperatively with the United States or with the rest of the world.

[Tudor Dixon]

Well, who are his allies right now? Because he has there's rumblings that he's working with Putin. There's rumblings that he's working with North Korea. There's also rumblings that he's working with Iran. That these are all this is like the axis of evil. So who are the allies of the Chinese?

[Gordon Chang]

Well, China has technically has only one military ally, and that's North Korea. But clearly China, Xi Jinping is on the same wavelength as Vladimir Putin. One can even argue, as I do, that the Ukraine war is actually a proxy contest where China is trying to destabilize Europe through Putin. And we see the same thing. China has fully supported Iran in its assault on Israel. So that's October 7th. China have been supporting Pakistan in the four day conflict with India. And China has been fielding insurgencies in North Africa that look like wars. So Xi Jinping has been trying to destabilize the world and that goes back to sort of the Maoist playbook. So those are his friends, those are the instruments that he uses and he's, his goals are maligned.

[Tudor Dixon]

I think when you're in the United States, sometimes you can see just the dynamics of how China and the US Interact. You just kind of look at how the US Is interacting with all of these other foreign leaders in foreign countries, but bringing up the fact that China would want to destabilize Europe and to use Russia as kind of their useful idiot to go into Ukraine and destabilize Europe and Eastern Europe and then obviously Western Europe as well. I mean really, you're getting everybody involved because now the entire world is focused in on what is, is Putin going to do. And they were very effective in manipulating the United States because look it, it impacted our ent political system for years having people go back and forth on it. Are you with Ukraine? Are you not with Ukraine? Now we have this similar situation with Israel and Palestine. In the last few days we've seen this horrific murder in Washington D.C. of these two people who were at the, the museum, the Israeli museum. They were a young couple just about to get engaged American. And I believe the. The man was from Israel. Is that correct?

[Gordon Chang]

I think so.

[Tudor Dixon]

When you see that happening on U.S. soil and this is something that we haven't really discussed on the podcast, but it was, it shook me waking up to that news. I think we are so desensitized to seeing a murder on the streets of New York or a murder on the streets of D.C. that it's easy to overlook the fact that this is a terror attack. This is a mindset. This is someone who is radicalized on U.S. soil. And when you start to hear really the teachings that come from the socialist group that is on college campuses and they have infiltrated these college campuses and they are using, they really, the reality is they don't actually care about the Palestine Israel war. They are using that as a way to radicalize these kids and force the nation destabilize the United States and force the nation into a socialist economy. I don't know why this is not getting more attention that this is not just a random act. This is someone who was radicalized by a group that is on our college campuses. And when we talk about Harvard and when we talk about the University of Michigan where we just had this happen and the Attorney General arrested these people and then let them go. We have a real problem. It's not free speech. It's a real problem on our college campuses where someone became got to the point where they decided to go murder a young couple in cold blood on the streets of the United States Capitol.

[Gordon Chang]

Yes, the U.S. capitol is not safe. And to your broader point, foreign agents are working and feel emboldened. Just to give you an example, 2023, President Biden's 911 deal with Iran. As part of that, Biden gave clemency to five Iranian operatives and he allowed three of them to stay on US Soil at a time when other Iranian operatives were trying to kill the former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and other senior State Department officials. And as we subsequently learned, Iranian officials were trying to murder Donald Trump. So really, this is to me, indescribable why he, you know, why Biden would allow these dangerous elements to stay in our country. And you know, we know that China has been behind a lot of this Islamic radicalism, fueling it. So for instance, on Chinese owned tick tock of the videos on Hamas, 96.5% of them support the terrorist group. That's because China's been manipulating the curation algorithm of TikTok to support the Palestinian quote, unquote. Cause so this is, this is being directed from Beijing. There are so many examples of this infiltration of our society and it's going to be very difficult, but we have to remove these elements of the Chinese Communist Party. We have to remove the Iranians, we have to remove the Russian, because they are here to take down our country, not just to destabilize us, but to actually take down the United States of America.

[Tudor Dixon]

Well, and I, I think that people are realizing that we're close to that. If they get a few more people on that team, they are, are closer than I think the average person thinks to wrecking our way of life and getting in there and destroying that. You know, I come from Michigan, so I have. We have a big Arab American population here. And that breaks my heart over this situation is that when I talk to my friends there, they're like, look, we want peace. And Donald Trump has. Are my friends who are supportive of Donald Trump. Donald Trump has said that he wants peace too. We want peace. This movement is not some. Most of these people are people who have no connection to that region whatsoever. And they have been radicalized by an idea, but it's something they don't fully understand. And instead of wanting peace like these guys do they want to ratchet things up. They want to. They. They're looking. I mean, you don't. You're not looking for peace if you're murdering someone in cold blood on the, on the sidewalk after an event.

[Gordon Chang]

That's right. And we have foreign elements fueling this. You know, it's difficult for our society to deal with it because every time we try to, someone screams racism. But we've got to remember that we've got dangerous elements in our country, and we have to either imprison or expel them because this is. We're getting to the point where they can do create the worst outcomes for us. So this is absolutely essential. And a lot of people don't like this. You know, they're targeting a group. But unfortunately, for instance, China has weaponized Chinese nationals on our soil against us. And we have to understand that this is something that we have to look at with a China focus. It's not we're racist. It's Chinese regime has taken these nationals and turned them against us and has compelled them to commit crimes against the United States. This is difficult for us to deal with, but we're going to have to do it if we want to save our country.

[Tudor Dixon]

What is the average life like in China? And I ask this because every private high school I know in the United States has Chinese exchange students, and that seems to be the number one group from other countries. The number one group of international students comes from China. And I think, what kind of a lifestyle do you have there if you get to send your child to America to study for high school? Because I would imagine you have to be somewhat affluent to do that. And, and in that case, then you prob. Have a connection to the Chinese government. Because my impression, and correct me if my. I'm wrong, my impression is that if you are in a position where you are allowed to send your child out of the country to America to study, you must be given that permission by the. The Chinese government, and you must have a certain amount of money from your experience with the Chinese government. And if that is the case, are we just being naive taking all of these international students from China?

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah, those are great points, because you're right. I mean, for a Chinese national to come to the United States, they need a passport which is issued by the Chinese central government. And as you point out, the students who are coming and studying in our high schools and our colleges and universities, they're affluent because by and large, they are paying the entire tuition and cost of their education. The way to get rich in China is to manipulate relationships with the regime or actually be a member of the Communist Party. So there's a lot of that, you know, we have seen and there's a lot of different explanations for the Chinese nationals who are in our country. I mean some of them who've come across the borders, both northern and southern ones, some of them are just desperate Chinese who managed to make it their way out and want to live in a free society. Others, it's apparent that they are People's Liberation Army, Ministry of State Security and are coming here to take us down. And then you have, you know, your, your 277,000 Chinese students on our campuses, about 13% or so of them commit espionage and they are compelled.

[Tudor Dixon]

How do you know that?

[Gordon Chang]

Just studies have been done on this just and this has been studied and obviously you can't get a precise number, but that is an estimate. It, we got to remember that the Chinese regime compels Chinese students to commit espionage. And there are two things. First of all, there's the 2017 National Intelligence Law of China which requires every Chinese national to spy if given a demand to do so. But more important, there's the Communist Party's top down system whereby every Chinese citizen has got to obey commands of the Communist Party. So this is, this is, this is bad. But we've got to remember though that this is also a U.S. issue. And the reason is we've known that the Chinese consular officials and Ministry of State Security agents surveil Chinese students and we've allowed that to occur. And we know what the Chinese regime is doing in terms of not only monitoring but coercing Chinese students into committing crimes against the United States. So this is really on us as well as, and we have got to dismantle those Chinese networks that surveil and monitor and coerce Chinese students.

[Tudor Dixon]

Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the Tudor Dixon podcast.

[Hannah Ch]

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[Tudor Dixon]

I'm Molly Roberts.

[Ryan]

And I'm Drew Goins. Each Friday on Impromptu, we talk through the questions we can't stop thinking about.

[Tudor Dixon]

Do we need to rethink how much we drink?

[Ryan]

Why are companies really asking workers to.

[Gordon Chang]

Come back to the office?

[Tudor Dixon]

Does boycotting a business actually work?

[Gordon Chang]

Should we quit social media?

[Tudor Dixon]

We're here when the news gets personal.

[Gordon Chang]

And the headlines hit home. Join Molly and me every Friday on Impromptu. From Washington Post opinions.

[Tudor Dixon]

Find Impromptu wherever you get your podcasts.

[Travis Holloway]

I'm Rodney Williams.

[Molly Roberts]

And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the wealth break.

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Let's be honest. Building wealth doesn't look the same for everyone. It's not just about saving. It's about investing. It's about navigating systems that weren't built for you, embracing your hustle, and relying on your community to create something bigger.

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We're Here to talk about the journey, you'll hear from people who've broken barriers, found creative ways to succeed, and learn to build wealth on their terms. Whether it's the first time homeowner, a gig worker, or someone turning a side hustle into a six figure business, we're bringing you their stories.

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So if you're ready for a podcast as much as about people as it is about money, you're in the right place.

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[Tudor Dixon]

Well, I'm not giving us a pass on this by any means, but don't you think that the culture that Americans grow up in is so counter to that that we can't even imagine our government asking us to spy? It's something that I think is so countercultural that we reject the notion because we think it's impossible.

[Gordon Chang]

Oh, absolutely. And you made a really critical point. We do not understand the Chinese regime. And because we don't understand it, we've allowed it to infiltrate our society and our general norms of what we believe prevent us from acting effectively against the regime that is here to destroy us. So we are going to take measures which, you know, most Americans would consider to be extraordinary, but which I believe are absolutely necessary to protect us. And because we are not taking those measures, I fear for the future.

[Tudor Dixon]

That's what I was going to say. I mean, is this something that on the outside looking in, we're all going, gosh, this is terribly scary. And you talk about the lab that was found in the United States and this all seems, I mean, when you start talking about bioweapons, it feels like that hits so quick and it spreads so fast that that once it's here, there's really no way to combat it. So in my mind I'm like, well, there must be an an entire government agency dedicated to keeping us safe. But is there?

[Gordon Chang]

Unfortunately, no. Well, there are government agencies that have. That have that as their mission statement, but unfortunately, we are not prepared to do that right now. And so, you know, we have, as I just give you an example, you know, President Trump was very good in his second term. He got us out of the World Health Organization again. But we have yet to impose costs on China for spreading Covid. And as I mentioned before, Xi Jinping now knows that he killed 1.2 million Americans with COVID And there was no cost imposed on China. So we've got to go beyond that now. Now, President Trump, while he was out of office, between his two terms, actually talked about reparations. And for most Americans, that would be going far, much too far. But the point is we need to create in some way, Tudor, whether it's reparations or something else, we need to create that deterrent because we know the Chinese are working on diseases. They're going to weaponize Ebola or something else. And we could very well be hit with another epidemic. And that epidemic is going to be more deadly than Covid. So it's on us.

[Tudor Dixon]

You make such a good point, because I asked you earlier, well, was that just a test? And even you said likely not. But even if it's not, it ultimately was because they learned from it. So now they've learned that we're not going to come back. There was no punishment. And you know, there was no punishment worldwide was no global response to China saying, what are you going to do? I haven't even. I don't even feel like I have that assurance that they were like, you know, what? Huge mistake. We totally screwed this one up. This is what we're going to do to ensure that can never happen again. Has that happened?

[Gordon Chang]

No, of course not. And you know, the one global institution that is meant to where health is its mission, which is the World Health Organization was complicit in this spread because WHO doctors knew from the get go in January 2020 that COVID 19 was highly transmissible. And yet that institution was spreading China's narrative when it knew it was wrong. So we really have this global health institution which is responsible in part for the pandemic.

[Tudor Dixon]

I just don't understand. You can be tried for war crimes. I mean, the entire globe can come after you if you commit war crime crimes. How can it be that if you are so careless with research that you can kill off millions of people that there are no repercussions, that there's no global council that says, hey, hey, wait a minute, you can't do this.

[Gordon Chang]

7 million people outside of China died from COVID We can argue about the number, you know, and people say, well, it's controversial about how many people actually died from COVID but any number above zero is unacceptable. So we are talking in the millions. And yeah, this is, if you want to put another point on it, because Xi Jinping was targeting a specific group which was non Chinese, this technically qualifies as a genocide. This is, this is more than the Third Reich's genocidal total.

[Tudor Dixon]

So, but I mean, you've got the Uyghur genocide, you've got quite a bit. There's, there's so many human rights offenses there. And I know I've, I've kept you a little, little long. I just want to say I think that the, there is a problem with us here in the United States especially, I would say my generation lived through 9 11. We saw the impact of the racial conflict that happened because of that and the, the prejudice that occurred out of 9 11. Because I do think that a lot of people went, oh my gosh, if that person did it, then people that look like that might also do it. And I, and my generation, I think, is so, so conscious of that now that we don't want to, we don't ever want that to happen. We don't want a group to be discriminated against in the United States. And, and I think that's what you're saying is when we hear Donald Trump say, we're going to go after these people and make sure the bad guys are out of the country. There are so many Americans who, because our culture is to say, we want to be inclusive, we want to be loving, we want to allow everybody, everybody their freedoms, that we're naive to the dangers. But there's this, there's this innate feeling of like, we don't want this prejudice to come back.

[Gordon Chang]

Yes. And that is what something. That's what our enemies exploit. A lot of these charges of quote, unquote racism are basically Beijing's propaganda points. And so we have to understand that they are manipulating us in that way. Way. And we're going to have to get over a lot of those views because if we don't, we're going to lose our country.

[Tudor Dixon]

Strong words. I. That's. It's going to be a hard cultural change for us. But I do think that Donald Trump is bringing hard truths out every single day. And obviously we're seeing this when we see the leftist media go crazy. But I think that those are hard truths that we need to learn because we are, we are a free nation and we, we are very naive to how other regimes work.

[Gordon Chang]

I couldn't say it better. So thank you.

[Tudor Dixon]

Thank you so much. Gordon Chain. Thank you. And I want you to tell us your book and give us your Twitter handle because I want people to be out there following your X handle, whatever we're calling it now. I want people to make sure that they can follow you because this is such important stuff. They need to know where it's coming from and how to continue to follow what you're saying.

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah, my ex handle is at Gordon G Chang G O R D O N G C H A N G and I archive all my articles for free on my website, which is www.g o r d o n c h a n g dot com.

[Tudor Dixon]

Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you Tutor and thank you all for joining us on the Tutor Dixon podcast. For this episode and others, go to tutordixenpodcast.com the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Or if you want to watch the video, you can check it out at Rock Rumble at Tutor Dixon and join us next time. Have a blessed day.

[Colby Ekowitz]

There's an efficient way to get caught up on a lot of news. It's called the seven from the Washington Post. It's a newsletter and podcast. Whether you're reading or hit play, you get seven stories you need to know and you can consume it all in just a few minutes. The 7 is out every weekday morning by 7:00am Eastern.

[Tudor Dixon]

I'm Hannah Ch?

[Gordon Chang]

Jewel.

[Colby Ekowitz]

I'm one of the writers and I host the show. Find the seven Podcast wherever you're listening. The newsletter link is waiting for you in the show.

[Gordon Chang]

Notes.

[Rodney Williams]

Online education is convenient, but sometimes it can be lonely. Sometimes the extra help you need can only come from someone else. At American Public University, they make online education personalized, affordable and memorable. With 24. 7 mental health support available in multiple languages, access to career coaches who are industry professionals and lifelong career services, you'll never feel alone on your path to success. APU Digital by nature, human by design. Learn more at apu Apus Edu.

[Travis Holloway]

I'm Rodney Williams.

[Molly Roberts]

And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the wealthbreak podcast, a real conversation about finance.

[Travis Holloway]

Let's be honest, building wealth doesn't look the same for everyone.

[Tudor Dixon]

I feel like sometimes being broke is a cycle and that we might have.

[Molly Roberts]

To revisit that and we're not stopping at success stories.

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What happens when it doesn't go right.

[Tudor Dixon]

How do you cope with it?

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Because wealth isn't just about money. It's about creating a life where you thrive and help others do the same.

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[Ryan]

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[Tudor Dixon]

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[Gordon Chang]

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[Gordon Chang]

Listen to Medal of Honor on the.

[Ryan]

Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Tudor Dixon]

This is an iHeart podcast.