The Tudor Dixon Podcast: Faith vs. Censorship: The Fight for Student Religious Expression with Kayla Toney

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Tudor Dixon Podcast

Episode: Faith vs. Censorship: The Fight for Student Religious Expression

Guest: Kayla Toney, Counsel at First Liberty Institute
Release Date: September 8, 2025
Podcast: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show / The Tudor Dixon Podcast
Host: Tudor Dixon

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Overview

This episode of The Tudor Dixon Podcast spotlights a high school student’s legal battle for the right to express her Christian faith on school property, examining broader national themes of religious liberty, censorship, and the importance of standing up for one’s rights. Tudor Dixon and guest Kayla Toney, an attorney from First Liberty Institute, break down the case of Sabrina Steffens, whose efforts to paint a Bible verse on her parking space led to a precedent-setting victory for student religious expression. The episode encourages parents, students, and communities to know their rights, fight back when necessary, and dispels misconceptions about the separation of church and state.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Case: Sabrina Steffens & Her Parking Space (04:12–09:21)

• Background: Sabrina Steffens, a senior in Upstate New York, wished to decorate her paid school parking space with a Bible verse, which was twice denied by her public school for being religious in nature.
• School’s Policy: Allowed almost any kind of artwork unless it included religious references.
• Legal Involvement: Sabrina’s mother reached out to First Liberty Institute after rejections.
• School’s Reason: Stated concern that religious expression might offend others—no official policy, just a hesitation about faith-based messages.

“Her first design had John 14 on it, and that was rejected. Her second design had Jeremiah 29:11 on it, and that wasn’t good enough either, even though that’s everyone’s favorite graduation verse.”
— Kayla Toney (04:27)

• Double Protection: Kayla explained that Sabrina’s artwork was protected both as free speech and as free exercise of religion.

“Sabrina’s speech has double protection. She’s got the free speech clause... and also her free exercise.”
— Kayla Toney (08:05)

• Resolution: After a demand letter and media attention, the school relented and allowed Sabrina to paint her space—including original religious imagery—after the deadline.

2. Misconceptions about Religion in Public Schools (09:21–12:26)

• School’s Argument: Initially, the school considered the decorated spaces a “school sponsored activity” and claimed the First Amendment did not apply.
• Reality: Kayla clarified this was individual student speech, not school speech.
• Separation of Church and State: Tudor and Kayla debunked the frequent misreading of “separation of church and state,” noting this phrase does not appear in the Constitution but is derived from a Jefferson letter meant to protect religious freedom.

“Separation of church and state is not in the Constitution. What is in the Constitution... is that free exercise of religion is protected, and so is free speech.”
— Kayla Toney (11:17)

3. The Ripple Effect: Impact on Other Schools & Students (12:26–14:00)

• Courage Inspires Change: Sabrina’s win encouraged other students, including those in Georgia, to fight for their rights with successful outcomes.
• Positive Tone: Both host and guest emphasize that fighting back doesn’t have to mean anger or confrontation—Sabrina’s approach was calm, respectful, and effective.

“The ripple effect of her courage is that other students now are brave... We actually heard from some students in Georgia... their school changed their policy.”
— Kayla Toney (13:09)

4. Action Steps for Parents and Students (17:35–20:36)

• Education is Power: Both host and guest stress the importance of knowing your rights and encourage parents and students to have open conversations and be involved at school.
• First Liberty Institute Resources: Kayla outlines free legal aid for religious liberty issues and promotes a newly created toolkit to educate students on their rights.

“There’s really a lot more rights that people have that, again, they don’t always know. And a lot of times the school will tell you an incorrect version of your rights.”
— Kayla Toney (18:32)

5. Other Legal Cases and Issues (20:36–22:33)

• Student Clubs: Recurring problem where faith-based or interfaith clubs are singled out, while other clubs (ex. Pride or even Church of Satan clubs) are permitted.
• Parental Rights: Ongoing cases include schools denying parents the ability to review or opt out of curriculum that conflicts with their faith.

“We represented a fifth grader in Seattle who wanted to start an interfaith prayer club... The school said, no, absolutely not. But of course, they had approved a Pride club just a few weeks earlier.”
— Kayla Toney (21:07)

6. Parental Vigilance & Practical Advice (23:10–25:39)

• Unexpected Issues: Tudor shares a personal example illustrating how parents can be unaware of what happens at school, underscoring the need for vigilance.
• Encouragement: Kayla urges parents to get involved, advocate for their children, and reminds that organizations like First Liberty exist to help.

“Never assume that everything going on is in your kid’s best interest or aligning with your faith... We have to speak up about our rights, we have to know our rights and we have to advocate for them.”
— Kayla Toney (25:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the power of a student’s courage:
  “She just wanted to do what was right. And I think the ripple effect of her courage is that other students now are brave and they’re more willing to paint their own parking spaces.”
  — Kayla Toney (13:09)

• On the misunderstanding of ‘separation of church and state’:
  “There is actually in the Constitution a phrase that says separation of church and state. There’s not.”
  — Tudor Dixon (10:28)

• On resources for parents/students:
  “We just recently put together a very up-to-date toolkit that’s designed for students to know their rights in public schools.”
  — Kayla Toney (18:32)

• On ongoing legal battles for parental rights:
  “We have a case in California where some fifth graders were forced to teach kindergarteners about changing genders... and so we are still fighting that case.”
  — Kayla Toney (21:07)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:06–04:27: Introduction to Sabrina’s parking spot case; background and school’s rejection
• 05:28–06:27: School’s rationale for religious restriction and targeted censorship
• 08:05–09:21: Legal approach and school’s reversal after intervention
• 11:17–12:26: Debunking the “separation of church and state” myth
• 13:09–14:00: National impact of Sabrina’s case and other schools’ responses
• 18:32–20:36: First Liberty’s toolkit and overview of student and parental rights
• 21:07–22:33: Examples of similar cases—student clubs and parental rights to curriculum review
• 25:05–25:39: Parental advice on vigilance and advocacy

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Resources Shared

• First Liberty Institute’s website: firstliberty.org — Legal help request, donations, toolkit for students and parents

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Students have robust rights to religious expression in public schools—know them and defend them.
• The phrase “separation of church and state” is widely misunderstood; religious expression by individuals is protected, not prohibited.
• Parents and students should be engaged and proactive with schools, and resources like First Liberty Institute can offer free legal assistance.
• Sharing stories and calmly advocating for your rights can create national change and inspire others.

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Transcript

[Kayla Tony]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Kayla Tony]

Learn [e-mail] America is changing, and so is the world.

[Tutor Dixon]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Kayla Tony]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world is and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tutor Dixon]

Welcome to the Tutor Dixon podcast. So many times we have a situation in our lives where we say, this is not fair and we don't know how to fight it. And oftentimes we have people come on the podcast and they're like, you need to get a legal organization involved or get an attorney and go fight. And that seems sometimes daunting and overwhelming and expensive. And I wanted to bring a story to you today about why it's important to make sure you do fight. Because right now, I think in this country, we are really fighting for our religious liberties. Oftentimes, especially as Christians, I think we are pushed to the side and our faith is pushed to the side or our faith is demonized. And I heard this story the other day, and I was like, this is a really great story. So I wanted to bring an attorney on here. Her name is Kayla Tony. She is counsel with First Liberty Institute, a nonprofit legal organization where she focuses on religious liberty and the First Amendment rights for clients of all faiths, but also in the education context. So, Kayla, thank you so much for joining me today.

[Kayla Tony]

Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

[Tutor Dixon]

I saw. So I saw on the news this case of a young woman, and she had. Explain it a little bit. She had a parking space at school, and the kids were allowed to decorate the parking space. And her designs were rejected by the school.

[Kayla Tony]

Yes, actually twice. And this was simply because she included a Bible verse reference. So we represent Sabrina Steffens. She's a rising senior at Grand Island High School in upstate New York, and she's very active at her school. She runs the Bible Club. And all she wanted to do was put a simple Bible verse on her parking space. The way the program worked is you pay $50 and you can decorate it with any kind of artwork you want, as long as it's not religious. And so her first Design had John 14 on it, and that was rejected. Her second Design had Jeremiah 29:11 on it, and that wasn't good enough either, even though that's everyone's favorite graduation verse. And the only design they would approve was one that didn't have any religious imagery. So that's when she reached out to us at First Liberty.

[Tutor Dixon]

What was. What was the re. This is a public school, I'm assuming? Yes, and what was their reason that, I mean, you could have anything but.

[Kayla Tony]

Religion, why they were worried that someone might be offended. That was really the only rationale we could get from them. It didn't make a lot of sense, and it certainly was not in line with the First Amendment.

[Tutor Dixon]

It's interesting to me that you can decorate it with anything you want, but they're afraid that it might be offensive if you decorate it with something faith based, because you would think there could be a lot of offensive decorations. So why would the school not just say you can't decorate parking spaces at all if they were afraid that someone might be offended? It seems like it was pretty targeted to Christianity.

[Kayla Tony]

That's right. And certainly, as you said with high school students, they might come up with something inappropriate or vulgar, and the school could absolutely police that already. But the fact that they would turn away an otherwise, you know, beautiful, upbeat artwork design just because it referenced God or because it included a religious reference, that's just.

[Tutor Dixon]

No, we talk about this a lot about what's happening in the country when it comes to people, especially with education. It seems like parents are under attack, students are under attack. If you wear a T shirt, if you have a political reference or religious reference that the school doesn't like, it's very easy for them to come after you. There's also been cases where the school has done something that parents haven't liked and they don't seem to have a recourse. When you went to the school and you, first of all, how did you get connected with the student?

[Kayla Tony]

Sabrina's mom reached out to us through our website. [e-mail] there's a page where you can request legal help. And we receive thousands of these every year. And we're obviously not able to help everyone. Not everyone has a clear religious freedom issue who reaches out to us. But Sabrina's mom really did. And so we got in touch with her right away. We did a call with Sabrina and her mom, and we were just very impressed by how committed she was that she really wanted her parking space to express her faith because that's the most important thing in her life. That was inspiring to us, and that really made us want to step up and fight. And we also knew that her story could impact a lot of other schools, and it already has. Since her win, we've seen impact in other places as well.

[Tutor Dixon]

That's actually, that's what I wanted to get to, is the importance of. Of fighting back when you see something that is wrong like this and like I said, I think a lot of people are afraid because it's going to be expensive and what if they don't win? But you said you saw a clear case here. What were the next steps when you talked to the school? Did you have to go into court? Did you have to? Or did they just say, you know what, you're right. How did it work?

[Kayla Tony]

We sent a demand letter to the school explaining why their actions violated the First Amendment. We talked about how Sabrina's speech has double protection. She's got the free speech clause, which protects her ability to say a message in her artwork. And the Supreme Court has held that artwork counts as speech, certainly when it's coming from a student. And then also her free exercise. It's an important part of her faith to be able to share her faith with others. She does that through her Bible club and she wants to do that through her parking space. And so those double protections are really the legal hook that Sabrina has. And so after we explained that to the school in our letter and we also sent a press release and obviously Sabrina told her story on the local news, which I think made a significant impact as well, the school quickly changed course and they agreed that not only could she come and pay paint her parking space after the official deadline had passed, but she could use her original design which said God is love and wrote out Jesus is the way, the truth and the Life and John 14:6. And so she was able to do that last weekend. She sent us the pictures and it just came out beautifully. She added a cross. She just was really able to express her faith fully. And that's so exciting.

[Tutor Dixon]

That is very neat. I think it's interesting that the school was essentially. It sounded like there was some discussion of, well, you can't have anything religious on school property. And there was a confusion with the school teaching the kids like, this is a, this is a public school, so you can't have religion. Is that true? Was there some pushback on it?

[Kayla Tony]

Yes. Initially, what they told Sabrina before we got involved was that it was a school sponsored activity. So basically the First Amendment didn't apply, and that's just not correct. This seems like the clearest instance of student speech that I could think of because she paid for the space and she's physically painting it herself and she drew the design. So it's not like you have a teacher up there preaching or forcing conversions or something like that. This is very much in the student speech world. But that is something we've seen school districts just seem to want to remove Religion, remove all references to religion. And then if that doesn't work, they sort of recast everything as school speech instead of student speech. That's just not right. And we were. We were happy to explain that to them.

[Tutor Dixon]

I think there is some confusion across the board. And I'm not saying just schools, but I think a lot of Americans believe that the phrase separation of church and state means that you cannot have any public institution reference any religion whatsoever. And that seems to be something that they're kind of pushing down through the next generation and. And saying this is. There is actually in the Constitution a phrase that says separation of church and state. There's not. And that misinformation is going to our kids. And it's funny to me, because the people who are constantly fighting to protect the misinformation and not having any misinformation really seem to not be educated on this one critical piece, this critical item, that your religious liberty is there for you and meant to be protected.

[Kayla Tony]

Yes, absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up, because like you said, separation of church and state is not in the Constitution. What is in the Constitution right there in our First Amendment, is that free exercise of religion is protected, and so is free speech. And the phrase separation of church and state actually comes from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to a group of Baptists who were afraid that they were going to lose their heads because of their faith, because that was something that had happened in the old world where they had immigrated from. And he assured them that there would be a separation. But the purpose of it was to protect the church and to protect especially religious minorities who were afraid of government persecution. And he said that won't happen because the government is not allowed to encroach on your freedom. So that's the backstory to that phrase. But I think you're absolutely right that there is a lot of misinformation going on. And so a lot of what we try to do at First Liberty is we try to educate on these issues. And if we need to educate the educators, we're happy to do that. To explain to school districts that actually the law protects religious speech. And religious diversity is a strength of our country. And that's something that the next generation needs to know.

[Tutor Dixon]

I think also so proud of the mom in this situation, because so often as parents, we're going through something. We have something like this come and we. We take our kid aside and we say, okay, well, what are we learning from this? And we don't fight back because it can be really hard to fight back, especially going on the local news and especially with all the turmoil we've seen with these situations of parents going to school board meetings. I like this story because it doesn't seem like there's a lot of anger involved. And there because Sabrina is a religious person and she seems to be very filled with joy. It was, this isn't right. Let's have a discussion. That's not what we hear every day.

[Kayla Tony]

That's right. I'm so glad Sabrina was brave enough to stand up. And it's very intimidating, especially as a high school student. You know, peer pressure is a real influence. But she was not concerned about that. She just wanted to do what was right. And I think the ripple effect of her courage is that other students now are brave and they're more willing to paint their own parking spaces. And we actually heard from some students in Georgia just last week. They had reached out to us about a similar issue when they heard about Sabrina's story and their school changed their policy. So now they're allowed to go back to their parking spaces and add the religious imagery that they wanted to add, which their school had initially told them they couldn't have. So I thought that was a really special. Yeah, just a really special impact of, you know, Sabrina's courage up in New York is benefiting some students down in Georgia who now they're able to express their faith to.

[Tutor Dixon]

Let's take a. A quick commercial break will continue next on the Tudor Dixon Podcast.

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[Tutor Dixon]

When I heard this, I was like, I have to talk about this because I think we have so many parents and grandparents that listen to this podcast. And it's one thing to educate the kids, but I think even our generation needs to be hearing you shouldn't just accept that you're being pushed to the side. These are your rights. Your rights are very serious. And it gives parents and grandparents the chance to say, when we have this happen to us, we should. We don't have to get angry. We don't have to go to jump on social media and immediately yell and scream about what's happening. Go have that conversation. Because oftentimes you can change something. And that's something that we've had even when we've had kids that have been hurt or, or emotionally hurt by a school. The importance of knowing that there are tools to fight back. And that's. So I want you to talk a little bit about your organization and maybe a few of the other cases that you've been successful in so parents know there is another opportunity to, to have another path.

[Kayla Tony]

Yes, absolutely. So I work at First Liberty Institute. We are a nonprofit nationwide law firm and we represent clients of all faiths, which we love to do. But we are a Christian ministry. So our team has shared understanding, which is also really helpful. And we represent our clients for free. And the only way we're able to do that is that we are supported by really generous donors from all across the US and so there's more information on our website@first liberty.org there's a place where folks can give and there's also a place where, as I mentioned, you can request legal help. And that's how Sabrina's family got in touch with us. So certainly if listeners have a family member who's maybe going through a religious freedom issue, please do feel free to reach out to us because that's how we meet a lot of our clients. And one other thing I'll mention, we just recently put together a very up to date toolkit that's designed for students to know their rights in public schools. So I'm happy to share a link with you if that would be helpful to send out to listeners. But it's a lot of legal precedents that are sort of explained and we tried to do it in understandable terms so you don't have to wade through a lot of legalese. But, but there's a lot of good information in there and we hope that that really equips students and parents to know their rights and to know you are free to speak about your faith. You're free to have a Christian club at school. Your club has to be treated just the same as every other club. Parents are able to view the curriculum that their children are learning. They're able to opt out if that curriculum interferes with their faith. There's really a lot more rights that people have that, again, they don't always know. And a lot of times the school will tell you an incorrect version of your rights based on this outdated idea that, you know, church and state have to be completely separate, when actually there's a lot of space for religious expression as long as it's voluntary and as long as it's coming from students. You know, there's. There's so much freedom that we have in our public schools today.

[Tutor Dixon]

I know we had a story a while back of a school that allowed social clubs, and they had multiple social clubs, and they even had a Church of Satan club, But they said that there couldn't be a Christian club because that was religious. And the parents fought back on that. And the school ultimately had to give in and say, okay, actually, I guess that is the correct answer. You can have one of these. Is that the type of case you generally see, or what are some of the other issues that you've experienced?

[Kayla Tony]

Yes, we've definitely had some student club cases. Just last year, we represented a fifth grader in Seattle who wanted to start an interfaith prayer club. It wasn't even focused on one faith. It was interfaith. And the school said, no, absolutely not. But of course, they had approved a Pride club just a few weeks earlier. And so there again, we threatened to sue. We ended up not having to litigate because the school did agree to allow the prayer club. So that was a great win for that student. And we also work on parental rights. So right now we have a case in California where some fifth graders were forced to teach kindergarteners about changing genders. And the fifth graders were not comfortable with this because they were Christians. And so when the parents reached out and asked to be notified in the future and maybe opt out if their child was going to be exposed to this, the school said, absolutely not. And so we are still fighting that case in California. The good news is that the Supreme Court this summer was in a similar case, that parents do have the rights, their children, of any teaching that interferes with their faith. So that's another thing parents should know, especially going into the school year. You should ask to review the curriculum that your kid will be exposed to, and then you should be able to opt out. And if there's any pushback on that, please do reach out to us at First Liberty, because we very much want parents to know their rights and to be able to just talk if the material is not Something that aligns with their faith.

[Tutor Dixon]

Did you just say that older kids were being told they had to go talk to younger kids about the fact that they could change their gender?

[Kayla Tony]

Yes. It was a buddy mentoring program between fifth graders and kindergarteners, and they met every single week, and they would do activities together. And it was just a great sort of mentoring relationship. But then the last month of school, the teachers introduced this book called My Shadow is Pink, which is essentially a little boy deciding he wants to become a little girl. And that's what the fifth graders had to teach to the kindergartens. So it was very disturbing.

[Tutor Dixon]

There's so much that actually happens in school. I had completely forgotten this until the other day. There's so much that happens in your school that you really have to be on top of what's going on and go to every parent teacher conference and know what's happening. Because I think that there's a lot of stuff that naturally happens in the school that they don't necessarily reach out and tell parents about. And maybe because they're not thinking about it. Like my daughter, this was. It's so funny because I had no idea this was happening. And it's not like something that I'm angry about, but this is just an example of when you don't know what's happening at your school. So there was a little boy in her class who was struggling with reading. She was not struggling with reading, but he had to leave class every day. And they would have him and, like, five other kids meet, and they would play games instead of reading. They didn't have a. I don't know if there was a reading specialist there, but they would play board games during this time. I don't really understand exactly what was happening, but. But at the last parent teacher conference, they were like, oh, your daughter is so sweet. You know, she's the friend that so and so picks every day to go to this special classroom with him. And they play these board games, and she's so sweet with him. And I was like, what are you talking about? Then I come home and I'm like, are you missing reading time at school? And she was like, oh, well, I'm the choice. Because, you know, so and so gets to choose somebody every day to go with him, and he always wants me to go. And I was like, like, that's very sweet, but you are missing critical time in class. And I think that's something we don't think about. We, as parents, have historically trusted the schools, and you put your kids in there, and it's something you really have to talk to your kids about every day. What's happening? How was school? Are you being pulled out of classes? You don't think about it, but it is very critical that you know. And then you have a, you have an opportunity to either go to the school or if it gets to the point where they need to, they can come to you.

[Kayla Tony]

That's right, Absolutely. I think that's such great advice for parents, I would say. Yeah. Never assume that everything going on is in your kids best interest or aligning with your faith. And I think taking the time to go to the meetings and meet the teachers and get to know and build those relationships and to really be involved is really awesome. And that's where, you know, I love working with parents and students. I think there's so much space for Christians and for people of all faiths in our public schools. But we have to speak up about our rights, we have to know our rights and we have to advocate for them. And at First Liberty we're very happy to help folks do that.

[Tutor Dixon]

Well, I appreciate what you did here. I'm so glad that we got to talk about it because I think it's an important subject for people to know. So give us the website one more time at First Liberty so in case people need to go check it out and get some help for themselves.

[Kayla Tony]

Yes, absolutely. It's just first liberty.org thank you so much.

[Tutor Dixon]

Kayla, Tony, I appreciate you coming on the podcast today.

[Kayla Tony]

Thank you for having me.

[Tutor Dixon]

Absolutely. And thank you all for joining us on the Tutor Dixon podcast. For this episode and others, go to tutordixonpodcast.com or you can head over to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can watch the full video on Rumble or YouTube uterdixon and join us next time on the Tutor Dixon podcast. Have a blessed day.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

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[Christina Quinn]

Supply if you eat too many ultra processed foods, you could be starving your gut microbes and they'll get hangry. That's one of many things I learned after working on a new audio course about the gut microbiome. You can learn how to keep your gut happy by listening to Try this from the Washington Post I'm Christina Quinn. I host Try this. Dig in with me on practical advice for life's common challenges. Follow Try this right now, wherever you're listening. Seriously, try it.

[NFL Shop Advertiser]

A new NFL season means a fresh start and fresh styles. @nflshop.com you'll find the latest jerseys, hats and sideline gear to rep your team all season long. From rookies making their debut to legends, NFLShop.com has it all. Score exclusive styles you won't find anywhere else and show up ready for every kickoff and big play. Fan like a pro and shop [e-mail] what is it that makes the all new Hyundai Palisade Hybrid an incredible suv? Is it the spacious interior that's comfy.

[Tutor Dixon]

For the whole crew?

[NFL Shop Advertiser]

Or the capability to go off road? Maybe it's up to 600 plus miles of range. What if it's all of that and more? What is it then? The all new Hyundai Palisade Hybrid? So much more than just another SUV. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details.

[Kayla Tony]

America is changing and so is the world.

[Tutor Dixon]

But what's happening in America isn't just the cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Kayla Tony]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, DC.

[Tutor Dixon]

I'm Tristan Redman in London and this.

[Kayla Tony]

Is the Global Story.

[Annabe Sofa Advertiser]

Every weekday we'll bring you a story.

[Kayla Tony]

From this intersection where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Christina Quinn]

This is an iHeart podcast.