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The Tudor Dixon Podcast: How to Escape the Cycle of Psychiatric Medication Dependence with Laura Delano
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Notes.
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- [02:42]
Tudor Dixon
Welcome to the Tudor Dixon Podcast. Today we have one of my most awkwardly favorite subjects because I try to educate people as much as I can about the psychiatric care industry and what these drugs are doing to people who are being over diagnosed, over prescribed. And I feel like sometimes I'm just yelling into this echo chamber and no one's really listening. And then last night, I think it was last night or over the weekend, I was on X and I saw this tweet from this woman and I was like, yes, yes, this is someone who can speak from true life experience and has created an entire career over helping people who don't need to be on these medications get off. So I have Laura Delano with me today. I'm so excited about it. I'm so excited about what you do. Laura, thank you so much for joining me.
- [03:32]
Podcast Host
Thanks for having me, Tudor. I'm so happy to be here.
- [03:34]
Tudor Dixon
Your story is interesting because like I said, you are someone who was put on medications. And I guess when we're talking about this, kind of explain what we're talking about with psychiatric medications and what your journey was from age 14 to 27 on these medications.
- [03:51]
Podcast Host
So, yeah, when we talk about psychiatric meds, we're talking about antidepressants, benzodiazepines. So, you know, Prozac is an antidepressant, Klonopin is a benzodiazepine, and then mood stabilizers like lithium, lamictal, antipsychotics like Risperdal, Seroquel, and then stimulants like Ritalin and Adderall and sleep aids like Lunesta or Ambien. So those are the kind of broad drug classes. And for me, I ended up taking all of them over over the years in varying combinations. And as a 14 year old, what got me into this, this whole long relationship with these medications that I ended up having was, was that I was just a struggling girl who was angry and confused about who she was. And I felt overwhelmed by despair and I was injuring myself and spinning out at home. And my parents just didn't know what to do. And they were scared and confused and they felt very alone with the experience. And so they sent me to a therapist who eventually sent me to a psychiatrist who in the span of one session told me that I was bipolar and that because I was angry and having anger outbursts and rage issues, those were symptoms of mania. And then the despair and the cutting and the, you know, the, the down feelings that I was having were symptoms of depression. So like that, in the snap of a finger, I was told I had this lifelong illness that required meds. And I was put right out the gates on two, on a mood stabilizer and on an antidepressant. But that list grew over time.
- [05:27]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah, I've, I've had a very similar experience with someone that I love in my family who went and said, you know, I've forgotten, literally first appointment, I've forgotten a few things. I've had some where I get distracted easily when I'm working and then forgotten things at home and without test, without. That's what blows my mind. There's no, I mean, you can't do a blood test, but there's no actual written exam. There's, there's nothing. It's. It was a 15 minute appointment in the doctor's office immediately, five medications, one of which was Adderall, which is someone who, they said, oh, well, you're anxious but you also have adhd, so we're going to put you on an anti anxiety drug and Adderall at the same time. And it was just like this clash of, of chemicals inside of this person's body seemed shocking.
- [06:19]
Podcast Host
Yeah, yeah. And, and what happened to your family member is how it is for literally every, every single person who gets a diagnosis in this country. It's based on completely subjective observations made by the clinician. There are no tests of any kind, no labs, no lab tests, no brain scans. It's these emotional difficulties, these behavioral struggles, these get kind of translated into this medical language of symptom and condition. And we just take for granted that that's what they are, that there must be some pathology in me if a doctor's telling me I have this. But when you, and you actually think it through, you're like, wait a minute, this doesn't really make sense here.
- [07:08]
Tudor Dixon
Yes. And that, I think is what you just said is key, is that we always assume the doctor is right. If a doctor told me this, then this must be the case. And honestly, this was how I felt up until I'm a cancer survivor. And when I went to the first doctor, they had this cockamamie idea of what they were going to do. And I was like, man, that sounds intense. Like I think I'm going to go to a few different people. And I had never really been that person, which, this also sounds crazy, but I'd never really had a big medical experience before, so I had never been that person. To go get two and three opinions on something but that was that moment where I went, man, medicine is different. Depending on who you talk to, every different person has a different impression of how to solve your problem. But when it comes to something psychiatric, what I think is so key and what I love about what you've done in your book that is Unshrunk A Story of Psychiatric Treatment resistance is that I don't think a lot of people, including parents, understand, and I don't think it's explained to us what the side effects of these medications are.
- [08:14]
Podcast Host
You're totally right. And we're not only not told about the side effects, but we're also not told about the evidence base upon which these drugs are approved to even begin with. So, for example, when I was put on these meds as a 14 year old and my parents and I were told I would need them for the rest of my life, no one said, and just by the way, these drugs have actually only been studied for about six to eight weeks before we approve them. No one ever said, just by the way, this combination we have you on has never been studied for safety and effectiveness. So it's both the evidence base itself that we're not told about and then, as you said, the long list of adverse effects which are in the drug labels, they are spoken quickly at the end of drug ads. It's not like no one knows that these drugs have problematic adverse effects. But I think we're so desensitized to that because we hear all those drug ads day in and day out and the long list of symptoms at the end. I think it doesn't sink in in the way that it should. And I think, and also because so many of the adverse effects mimic psychiatric conditions themselves or other health conditions, we just, we have this, we're trained to not kind of think critically about the pharmaceuticals that we take are going to be altering our bodies. And instead when we have problems, we end up getting new diagnoses that end up needing more medications.
- [09:44]
Tudor Dixon
Well, that, that's another one that I love. This is now this is causing this. So we're going to add this. And that's kind of, I think that's how Ambien actually gets added to the protocol sometimes because, oh wait, this stimulant won't let you sleep. Well, let's put this on. And now you'll sleep and you'll sleep in this weird drug induced coma that doesn't actually give you good sleep. And you might make yourself a meal in the middle of the night and crochet an entire throw for Your couch, You know, like, this is bizarre.
- [10:11]
Podcast Host
Oh, my gosh. Tudor. When I was on Ambien, so I was on ambient for years. You know, of course, this drug is not approved for more than two weeks. And I would, without fail, blackout after about 23ish minutes. And I'd wake up in the morning and I would have empty bowls, empty cereal box bowls, spilled milk everywhere. I'd write weird things in my journal. And then, as you said, too scary. I ended up feeling so sedated during the day that they. I started on Provigil, which is an anti narcoleptic drug. So I was literally on an insomnia drug at night and an anti narcoleptic drug during the day at the same time. Not to mention like two or three other meds too. I mean, it was wild. And I never.
- [10:53]
Tudor Dixon
And then who are you as a person?
- [10:55]
Podcast Host
Yeah, Yep, that's the question. And especially for those of us who end up on these meds as kids when we haven't even had a chance yet to forge a sense of ourselves, you know, and adolescence, which was when I got psychiatrized, as I like to put it, that was. I was just waking up to self, to my body, to how I fit into the world around me. I had all these questions and these struggles that I now see were these meaningful, deep, profound questions. And because I got diagnosed so young and I got put on these meds, that that process was interrupted, was disabled, really. And so I. I had no sense of. No baseline sense of myself through these critical years of my life, my teens and my twenties, which in turn made it hard to then extricate myself from it because I didn't have an old me to look back to. You know, sometimes people start meds later in life and, you know, they realize, like, hey, this. I don't really. I'm not really the way I used to be. Like, I'm not the same mom I was five years ago, or I'm not the same, you know, person at work. Maybe something's going off with these meds. When you're a kid, you don't have anything to compare yourself to. And so I think it's. It's especially insidious for young people.
- [12:08]
Tudor Dixon
And I think in our generation, that's when it really. Well, you're a little younger than me, so I think that I didn't go through it. Wasn't until I think maybe I was in high school that the younger generation was coming in using Ritalin and there was like this real push for Ritalin. I remember that being. And I don't remember people in my class being on medication or talking about it, but it was almost like a badge of honor for the younger kids. Like, well, I'm on Ritalin. You know, I have a special dispensation here because I'm on this or I'm on that. And then that kind of expanded and I think it became incredibly normal for us to go, oh, is this person struggling with coping with something? Then there's got to be a med for that. We're the quick fix society. And you're right, those ads were very so, so quick and so fast and so constant that even though they said if you're feeling the thoughts of suicide or harming someone else, go to a doctor, we just kind of forgot about that and we. I wasn't so the first. And this may be a place you don't want to go and you can tell me to stop if you don't want to. But the first school shooting was right after I graduated from high school. I was in college at the time. I was actually graduating college at the time. And I interviewed a psychiatrist who met with those, with Dylan and, and the other kid, now his name escapes me but met with them or read their, their file. The one that was 19 read his file and he was like, look, kids have not become less depressed and they've become more violent since we've been giving them all these medications. He said, I forced the FDA to say these ads. Had to say you might be considering suicide or harming someone else. He was like, I guarantee you, if you look at every school shooter, they have one of these medications in their system. Why don't we talk about that?
- [13:55]
Podcast Host
It's such an important question and I think the, whether it's, you know, because the story is about most mass shooters. Oh, this was someone with untreated mental illness, quote, unquote. And then that's why they, they, they did this. But as you said, if you look at the stories of many, if not most, if not all of them, they were already interfacing with the mental health system in some way. And so whether, whether they were on these drugs when they, you know, committed these horrific acts or maybe in some cases had stopped these drugs abruptly, which itself can cause withdrawal symptoms that literally are suicidal or homicidal ideation. I mean, I wouldn't. Because they've made it so hard to look at these shooters medical records. I have a friend who's a professor who tried to FOIA them and couldn't get Them, you know, we can only ask these questions, but I think. I think it's worth asking them. And the fact that these questions are getting shut down, I think, you know, indicate something important. And just to quickly piggyback on what you said about that, you know, what you saw in high school with the rise of stimulants, you're hitting something so important, which is that, you know, in the case of stimulants and this ADD thing and ADHD and school and performance, you know, instead of stepping back to say, like, why do we all force ourselves into this one rigid way of learning in this one rigid school system that some kids do well in, but some kids don't, you know, why. Why are we doing this? Do we have to do it this way? I think it's a lot easier and more convenient to say, oh, one individual kid here, something's wrong with him because he can't sit in his desk for six hours straight and not get sunlight and focus on, you know, mundane tasks. You know, I think. I think pathologizing kids and. And making them the problem instead of stepping back to. To problematize the school system itself, you know, I think that is a part of what's happened here with this predominance of the psychiatric paradigm is that instead of looking at the context of our lives and understanding our behaviors and our struggles as responses to the environment that we're in, to the food we're putting in our body, to the breakdown of social networks and neighborhoods and intergenerational families, I mean, the list is endless. Poverty, all these possibilities. Instead of doing that, we say, oh, the problem's inside of your brain and here's a pill. And I think we're finally reaching a point where enough people are realizing, does that really make sense?
- [16:28]
Tudor Dixon
And, I mean, it's crazy because you really are altering their brain chemistry. But then there's not. Like I said, there's no actual test. I mean, if you have a broken arm, you know, the fix, right? That. And then the arm is no longer broken and you move on with life. When you have someone who has a broken heart or, you know, thinks things that are. Are. Are sad or depressed, there is no obvious answer. And I. I talked a little before we got on. When my daughter was 8, she was just anxious. They had talked about germs in school, but I couldn't figure out what had set her off, if it was that. But she was so concerned about germs, she was freaking out if anybody would get near her. And so we talked about it. At her, well, child visit. She should go to a therapist and talk to the therapist. And again, this is at a point where I'm like, I want to be obedient to my doctor because my doctor knows. And we went to the therapist and the therapist saw her for probably about, I mean, I'll give her credit, she saw her for probably about four visits before saying she has to be on two different medications and you have to go to a psychiatrist. And I said, well, we're not interested in that. And then the next day I got a call from the pediatrician's office and she's like, we received this long letter. Your daughter has to be on an antidepressant and an anti anxiety medication. And I was like, well, I've just, I'm not going to do that. And they're like, you don't. Well, it's been, it's in the file now. You have to go. And I got to the point where I, I was getting calls from them. I was getting calls from the psychiatrist's office and I was afraid I was going to get a call from the saying like this, you have to get your kid on medication. And I finally just said, look, it's not going to happen. I'm going to block the number if you keep calling me. And we went home and I said, okay, I'm going to pour everything into figuring out how, when something happens, what we do. And there was like, I started reading about it and certain kids have like soothing mechanisms. And for her, it's like if you can get to her and kind of rub her back and be like, we're okay. That's like to her, it brings down all those emotions. She can calm down. And just last week was the end of school and they all, at the end of school, the teachers like say these affirmations over the kids and over and over again the kid. The teachers were saying, she's such a light. She's such a bright light in our class. She's just always cheerful. She is the kid that brings other kids in. And I think to this day, if I had done that those years ago, would she be a light.
- [18:56]
Podcast Host
Oh my gosh. Tutor. I feel so emotional thinking about it because there's so many kids out there who have parents who don't necessarily have the, the, they don't know. They don't know. They, they feel pressured into it. They're insecure, they're afraid, they're, they're confused. And the number of parents who have reached out to me with kids who are now in their 20s, some even in their 30s, who say, oh, my gosh, what did I do 20 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, when I listened to what the school said about getting my kid on Adderall, or I listened to them telling me I needed to take my kid to a psychiatrist. And now, all these years later, their young adult children are oftentimes disabled, unable to work, completely dependent on their families, and all. Of course, this is all being translated into illness. Oh, that they're just very mentally ill. But when I think about my experience, you know, through my 20s, as I got more and more disabled in mind, body, and spirit, you know, of course, every step of the way, it was 2 meds, 3 meds, 4 meds, 5 meds. It was the meds who that were injuring me and harming me in all these ways that my parents and I just didn't see because we were so unquestioning of these top doctors. You know, because I came from a family of socioeconomic means, I was seeing the best of the best, so who would we be to have questioned? And so I really feel for the bind that so many parents are in who don't have resources, who don't have the time to educate themselves, who feel, you know, who don't feel, you know, confident in their. In their voice. How do we support them? Because a lot of them, you know, are. They mean well, and they love their kids, they want to do what's best for their kids, and they just don't have. They're doing the best they can with what they have. And so how do we get them what they need?
- [20:52]
Tudor Dixon
And explain to me a little bit about what that was like for you, because my experience with folks who are not only the parents, but the actual patient themselves is like, there's this inability to admit that maybe I've done something wrong and that there's. And an inability to see that there is a more complete and exciting life without these medications dimming you. And like you said, it really is. You become disabled, it's like a fog over how you can accomplish things. I mean, I have people that I know that are like, I just can't get from here to there. And they don't see that it's the medication. So how do you open their eyes to, this is the medication? There's no shame in it. You are allowed to let it go and don't fear letting it go, because you've even said you work with people on this, and they go, I'm afraid of a relapse. I might have to go back to the meds.
- [21:45]
Podcast Host
Oh, it's, it's such an important question and I wish there was like one clear path of an answer. I mean, I know for me what, when I look back, you know, so, so as I said, My 20s, as my med list grew and I grew more and more disabled, I grew more and more hopeless along the way because eventually I was told that I had, you know, so called treatment resistant bipolar disorder, which basically meant like, oh, you are just so defective that even our treatments can' you.
- [22:15]
Tudor Dixon
What a horrible thing to think.
- [22:16]
Podcast Host
So, I mean, it was that story that led me to eventually try to kill myself because I was completely convinced that I had exhausted every option that might give me a chance at feeling okay and what's left for me. And so when I eventually did, two years after my overdose, was the year that I woke up, you could say. And what actually jolted me, what started to jolt me awake, what was like the first kind of thing that forced me to step back and begin questioning was, was having a few experiences with, with psychiatric force, basic, basically with the power that mental health professionals have to strip you of your civil liberties. So I was made to go into a hospital. When I didn't want to go in. I actually did want to go. I just wanted to go home to get my belongings first. Security guards were called. There was a whole thing that was the first time I was forced up against this realization that this system I had been turning to for care was actually also about control, about controlling me. And I just hadn't seen it because I had never said no before. So I had a couple of other experiences like that that just got me questioning this faith I had had in all of these doctors and all these pills and these hospitals and programs for so many years, 14 years. And then in that space of questioning, I began to wonder, you know, who would I be off of these meds that I've been on since I was a kid? It was just this question at first and I, and it kept nagging at me because I realized I didn't have any sense of myself off meds. I had never been off meds as an adult. And so those, those, those curious questions just kept eating at me. And then I eventually did find a book that led me on this journey that I'm still on today. And the book was written by a medical journalist and it was basically looking at why do we have such poor long term outcomes in the United States compared with other parts of the world that aren't developed that don't have all these pharmaceutical products. And what he found was that if you actually look at the outcomes, if you look at the long term data on psychiatric drugs, they're making us sicker. You can make a strong case for that. So I had that aha moment then when I read this book and I was on 5 meds and my whole life had fallen apart during the years I was on them. And I realized like, oh my gosh, what if it's the treatment? And so. But you can't force that awakening in someone. You can't make someone see. And so I think what it's really about is creating opportunities for people to identify with this story in someone else. I mean, that's why I wrote my book. I wanted to write a book that, that I could put out into the world to start a conversation and that might help spark a sense of identification in other people who maybe didn't, haven't yet realized that my story might well be their story too. So I think telling personal stories, putting our stories out there and then just creating opportunities for people to step back and ask questions and be curious because you can't force an aha moment in someone. And everyone's path to that is different. But I think the storytelling aspect, I think is really big because that's what also helped wake me up. That book I was mentioning, there were stories in it and I saw myself in the other, other people's stories in this book. And that's, I think why I was able to say, holy cow, what if it's the treat?
- [25:46]
Tudor Dixon
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To get caught up on a lot of news. It's called the seven from the Washington Post. It's a newsletter and podcast. Whether you're reading or hit play, you get seven stories you need to know and you can consume it all in just a few minutes. The 7 is out every weekday morning by 7:00am Eastern. I'm Hannah Jewell. I'm one of the writers and I host the show Find the seven Podcast. Wherever you're listening, the newsletter link is waiting for you in the show notes.
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- [31:25]
Tudor Dixon
This is a treatment. It's the only time we are willing to go to a doctor regularly and never be healed. That to me. So I was a psychology major in high school or in college and as a psychology major at the university that I was at you could work at the there there was like a inside the university there was a little psychiatric clinic and so you could work there and it was all the psychology Students, and then I think they had a psychiatric portion as well. But if you were a student at the university in the psych or the psychology department, then you were able to read everybody's every single patient file, unless they were a student or somebody that worked at the university. So there was a massive amount of community members that came in, and they were patients there. And I was pretty deep. I mean, this is probably my junior or senior year. So at this point, I'm planning on going to get my master's degree and become a therapist myself. And this is my first kind of exposure to therapy. So you get to. I mean, you do all the filing and everything, but you really get to sit down and read the cases. And I remember sitting down with one, and I read day one, and his file was 10 years long. And I went to the 10th year, and the stories were the exact same. And there was this moment that struck me so hard where I said to myself, how do you live with this being your career if you can't help someone? Because there was no change in this person. And I asked that question. They were like, oh, we're not here to solve their problems. We're here to get them through week to week. And I thought, what a terrible way of looking at this. We're just here to keep. Keep them alive. They are. They're miserable people. We're just here to keep them going from one miserable week to the next. And that was unacceptable to me. It's like, that is not what I thought this major was about. This is not what I thought we were here doing. I thought we were helping people. That was what I wanted to do, was to help people. And it seemed like they were keeping them trapped. And just the conversations. If you think about the conversation, the conversation is kind of like a. It's a gossip session. Okay, well, how did that make you feel? Yeah, you had a right to feel that way. And it's almost like even the therapist. And I'm not saying this in all cases, because I do think there are times when therapy gets you through a situation. And that's the problem that we have. There are therapists who say, okay, you've had a death in the family you went through, and, you know, lot had a marriage breakup or something, and there's a. Let's go through the next few months of getting you back on track, and then you want to see the patient le. The goal should be, in my mind, to want to see the patient leave. And yet there are. There's a whole industry built around in My town, the person has to have a meeting every week with their psychologist to once a month have a meeting with their psychiatrist so that they can stay on all of their meds. It's like a cash cow. You have to have the gossip session once a week to get the meds. And that means that you're constantly paying these people to keep you in a bad place.
- [34:41]
Podcast Host
For me, beginning therapy as a kid, what should have been a period of my life when I was developing meaningful friendships that I could, you know, I could turn to my friends in times of struggle, turn to them for comfort, for mentorship, for guidance, I, I learned to turn more and more to these paid professionals whom I was seeing once a week and eventually twice a week. And the more kind of accustomed I became to relying on therapy as my source of support, the less even interested really I was in, in friendships to begin with. And I think what you were saying earlier too, about the, when, when you were in your third year as a psych concentrator and like what you were seeing with these years and years and years of people not getting better, you know, that, that gets to the heart of this, this brilliant business model really that, that the mental health industry today is built upon, which is this idea of chronicity. These are chronic incurable conditions that you'll have for the rest of your life. And it's about managing them, quote, unquote, manage. I mean that was the word that was used for me. This isn't about, this isn't about me, me, you know, really growing, changing, transforming, evolving. This was about finding a med regimen that would help me, you know, so called manage my symptoms and, and you know, get by. And if you look at the history of, of the mental health industry over the past 70, 80 years, you know, prior to the rise of psychiatric drugs in the 1950s, there, the baseline operating assumption was that these, these challenges were episodic, even, even you know, extreme altered states that you know, today are called like these chronic conditions like bipolar and schizophrenia. Before the rise of the psychopharma pharmaceutical industry, people assumed like you have hard times in life, sometimes they last a few weeks, sometimes a few months, maybe sometimes longer. But you move through them, you, you move beyond them. And I think this, this medical model of incurable mental illness requiring lifelong treatment has just slowly over the decades led us to forget that these difficulties in life do not have to be forever.
- [37:10]
Tudor Dixon
And it's normalized, that we shouldn't actually have any difficulties. And that to me is, it's a weird thing because you can you don't have really medical malpractice when it comes to psychiatric care. And yet there are true great therapists who say, you went through something tough, let's get you through that, and let's get you back into life as normal. And it is a, a few, a few meetings, and then you're off. But I do believe that there should be some accountability for people who keep people in this cycle of, you're right, that's really hard. No wonder you're depressed. And that's why you carry this label and other people don't, because you get these, these young people to believe there's out I'm labeled this now. This is who I am.
- [37:57]
Podcast Host
Yep. And, and I think because as, as young people, you know, we're. We are searching for a sense of belonging. We're searching to understand ourselves and how we fit in and where we fit in. And, and one of the great tragedies I think, of this really, you know, overly medicalized society is that that identity of being mentally ill, quote, unquote, becomes, it becomes the. I mean, speaking for myself, it became the, the thing that I was proud of because if I wasn't ever going to be able to be just a normal person, and of course today, like, what is normal? What does that even mean? But at the time that's what I thought then at least let me get really good at being a psychiatric patient and it being crazy and mentally ill. And the more diagnoses, the more people will see how much I'm struggling. The more meds I take, the more they symbolize how much, how much suffering in this whole realm of like, medicalized, pharmaceuticalized living came to become this, the singular focus of my life, my sense of self, my relationships, my purpose. My purpose was being a good patient. And I think there's so many young people who grow up on meds in therapy thinking of themselves as sick. And, and this is not me judging any of them for this, because I relate. That was how I grew up too. But I see now in retrospect that I was what I was seeking, which was a sense which was feeling seen and heard and understood in my struggles. I actually was. Was doing the very opposite by medicalizing myself and, and thinking the, the solution was pills and professionals. What I really the, the, for me now, the, the way I think we can most validate a struggle in life is as a response. You're having a response to something that's happening in your life. And this response is a signal. It's a message, it's it's telling you something about where you need to go from here. And you just, if you listen to it, instead of try to shut it down or medicate it or treat it, you know, you open up all these possibilities for growth and change.
- [40:08]
Tudor Dixon
And I think it's. It's important to kind of zoom out on your life. Because I'm listening to you say this while in the back of my head I'm thinking, here is someone who was a straight A student, a nationally ranked sports woman, a Harvard student. I mean, this you're saying, like, I identified as being a good patient, but you had so many things that you were amazing doing amazing things. How did. What was that like? Because I think that people go, oh, this isn't my kid. This isn't my story, because my student's a good student. My student didn't have these issues. But you fit all those categories too, so explain that.
- [40:47]
Podcast Host
It might seem incongruous, but I actually think that a big part of why I broke down as a kid was because I grew up in a really intense town. I grew up in Greenwich, Connecticut, so this town with all these incredible opportunities and resources and all of that, but it was a really high pressured place where just the unspoken kind of operating assumption of everyone was that if you ever, if you want to feel worthy, you need to excel. And so I think because I was getting good grades and, you know, a good student, quote, unquote, in a kind of conventional way, I could study and get good grades on tests and, and regurgitate information. And because I was a good athlete and all these things, I was just assuming that, you know, oh, I'm playing the game, right, so maybe I'll eventually feel happy. And so the fact that what I was missing really was like, why? What do I care about? What ignites me? What brings me alive? What are my values? What are my. I was so focused on this kind of programmed good grades, good sports, good schools, that those deeper questions I didn't have the chance to explore in myself. And so I was just assuming I'll eventually feel happy because I'm doing it right. And so, of course, when I broke down, because that's not how it works, I believed all the more that something must be fundamentally wrong with me, because I have it all together. I've, I've. I've arrived at Harvard, you know, I did everything I was meant to do. Why do I want to die? And so I, I was so terrified by that, that, that I think that desperation is what really drove me to then Buy in so deeply into the idea that something was wrong with me. Me.
- [42:37]
Tudor Dixon
And I think that, so I wanted to get to that because I think that's key that it wasn't as though you were in an abusive home where you had had some terrible thing happen. This is, this is life. This is life. Every kid is experiencing life. And so often we say, you shouldn't have to feel that pain. You shouldn't have to feel upset about this. You shouldn't have to struggle with this. We'll make it easier. And every kid in class has a different diagnosis. And I've seen this throughout my daughter's life. You know, here I have, I have twins that are going to be in seventh grade. I've got one that's going to be a freshman in high school. I've got one that's going to be a junior in high school. And I, and they're all girls. So I think even from that perspective, I've seen those types of pressures of girls being mean to girls. And yes, as a parent, you want to say, I don't want you to have to deal with this, but I have seen so many phases of life with these kids too. That's, that's, that's the key is that there have been really hard years, not really hard seasons. I mean, we're talking about an entire year of high school that was really hard, you know, and we got through it together, but there were ups and downs. And I think we're so quick to say we just want to fix this, but I want to get to you having this epiphany of like, oh my gosh, what if it's the treatment? Getting off of the treatment, that's not easy. What was that like?
- [44:01]
Podcast Host
Well, when I came off of 5 meds in 2010, so I was in my late 20s, I had no idea what I was doing. First of all, I, I, and I had no idea that these, these drugs that I had been on for so many years had, had really changed my brain and my body. They had, they had that I was physically dependent on them. No one told me this. I had no idea.
- [44:27]
Tudor Dixon
Well, I just want to stop you there because I hear so many times when people go, oh, it's not addictive. So you, that doesn't mean you're not dependent on it.
- [44:35]
Podcast Host
Yes, People conflate these words, addiction and dependence. And I think sometimes, sometimes this is done deliberately because yes, you know, you're not craving your next fix of your anti psychotic, but your brain may well be completely acclimated to your daily dose of your antipsychotics such that if you don't take it, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna go hayw. When, when you hear someone, someone say, oh, these are not addictive, that may actually be, that is true, but that doesn't mean that they aren't dependence forming, which has nothing to do with cravings. And, and the kind of the, the psych, the psychological elements of what we conventionally understand addiction to be like, you know, this alcohol is causing you harm, but you keep drinking it anyways. It's not like that. This is a different thing. This is about being a compliant patient, doing what you're told by your doctor and that then leading your body to become totally dependent on these, on these pills. So when I, because I didn't know this, I was in this headspace of thinking that, you know, I've got to get off these pills as fast as possible. If they've been harming me, I've got to get off of them so I can heal. I didn't realize that I had it backwards that actually for many, many people the fastest way to get off and stay off of these meds is to taper very, very slowly because of this dependence issue. And by slow, I don't mean over a few weeks or a few months or even a year. Some people need to taper over years to get off of these medications without causing profoundly disruptive withdrawal symptoms that can literally take you out of your life. I mean, I have friends who were brought off of, you know, an antidepressant or an antidepressant and benzodiazepine. You know, people who had have, you know, work related anxiety. This very kind of typical struggles that they got put on these meds for. They've been, they were brought off, you know, over a few weeks or, or a month or so and were literally bedridden because they had such horrible vertigo that they couldn't stand up, they would fall over. Or the burning in their fingers and, and their, their and their feet are, is unbearable. Or the, the brain zaps that a lot of people coming off antidepressants get where you literally feel like you are being, having electrical shocks going off in your brain.
- [47:00]
Tudor Dixon
I mean, that's crazy in and of itself. When you're describing this, I'm like, this is what your body goes through coming off of these drugs and yet we want to keep people on them.
- [47:08]
Podcast Host
Yep. And, and I think why, why people end up staying on them is that the. So there are those physical withdrawal symptoms that are strange. You know, these brain zaps. No one would. Those are just such strange, strange things that are so out of, out of the ordinary. But a lot of withdrawal symptoms mimic the, the diagnoses themselves. And so when you come off, you know, you've been on your, your Prozac for 15 years and you realize, like, I don't think I need to take this anymore. And you come off and you feel horribly anxious down in the dumps. You lose energy or, you know, maybe you can't sleep or you're restless and you realize, like, gosh, I really was dep. I just didn't realize it because I was on my meds. Like, I need to go back on my meds. I don't want to feel this way. And I think that because we don't have this understanding of dependence and withdrawal, people stay in this loop for years and years and years because they hate how they feel when they stop their meds. And so a lot of what my, my work is about is, is not pushing any kind of agenda. I'm not anti med. I'm about informed choice. We are not being informed about the drugs before we start them, and we are not being informed about how to come off of them safely. And I want everyone should have the right to this information so that they can decide for themselves what their next right step is. And I believe that right now, basically none of us are making informed choices because we're not being told any of this.
- [48:32]
Tudor Dixon
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the Tutor Dixon podcast.
- [48:37]
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Podcast Host
You don't know me yet, but I bet we have something in common. We all wish we were better functioning humans. Maybe figure out how to sleep better, have more meaningful relationships, cook more that search for practical knowledge. It's my job at the Washington Post. I host a podcast called Try this. Every episode is like an audio class and we learn together. I'm Christina Quinn. Now you know me. Check out Try this wherever you're listening.
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Rodney Williams
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- [52:53]
Tudor Dixon
What do you think about the diagnosis process? Because I know, I mean I think that you had at one point major depression, eating disorders, substance abuse disorder, borderline personality disorder, bipolar, all of these things they had said, oh, it's this, it's this, it's this. Do you believe that they really understand what they're doing when they diagnose?
- [53:14]
Podcast Host
Well, I think the diagnostic process, what I think people really, what I fail to understand, and I think a lot of people fail to understand is that the process, the process of diagnosing someone with a psychiatric condition is not a scientific process that's rooted in, in, in anything kind of scientifically valid or reliable. It's, it's a very subjective process that, that is largely about the opinion of the person doing the diagnosing. And so in this, in that sense, the, the dsm, you know, psychiatry's bible that all of these diagnoses live in. I don't really take it seriously as, as a, a valid, a valid scientific text at all. I think it's more of a kind of work of fiction really. But that isn't me saying that these experiences aren't real. Sometimes people can think that when I'm challenging the diagnostic paradigm, I'm challenging the reality of the struggles that people have and I am not doing that. For me, the fact that I had, you know, six or seven different diagnoses along the way and that they would change and you know, different doctors had different opinions. And when you look at the history of the DSM itself, these conditions are voted in. In and vote it out. That's how they, that's if a diagnosis is, is in the dsm, it's because a group of psychiatrists voted on it and that's why it's there and so when people realize that, then, then you, you, you know, some of us start to wonder like, is this really the most useful way to make sense of my difficulty here, to just reduce it to this label? Or maybe there are other ways to make sense of this, this, this struggle. And, and by making sense of it differently, you end up opening up different options for you. Because if it's not a so called illness needing treatment, then you know, it can mean so many different things that then open up. Maybe changing your diet, right? There's so many relationships, there's so many.
- [55:19]
Tudor Dixon
Different ways that you can have something that appears like major depression, but it could be a, something that happened in your life. It could be a temporary condition that you have to talk through. You could have something that appears to be your standard eating disorder. But it might be one person has that eating disorder because they need control. The other person may have that eating disorder because it's a, a social contagion and their friend has that and they're in a bad environment and, and you need to get them out of that. I mean that's, that is the concern is, is how do you get to the root cause of a psychiatric condition? They're very hard. It's very hard to do that.
- [55:58]
Podcast Host
It's very hard. And I think especially for people who've been struggling for a long, long time, like, like, let's take the kind of stereotypical example of the, the man on the subway, the homeless man on the subway who's talking to himself and acting really wacky and scary. You know, I think are most, most. So many of us just assume, oh, this person must have this serious illness like schizophrenia and he's off his meds and that's why he's acting this way. But if you, if you step back and think about it, at one point that man was a little boy and, and things happened to that boy, needs were not met. Maybe things happened to that boy that never should happen to a child. And when you, when you think about the kind of cumulative effect over years and years and years of not having basic needs met, of having traumatic things happening, of being maybe put on meds that cause all these problems and then you get stuck in this cycle where you stop them abruptly and you go into withdrawal, but everyone thinks you're having a relapse. And just you think about all the layers of trauma and unmet needs and in all these kind of systems failing, it makes sense then that eventually a person reaches this extreme point where this, they're kind of seen as this other being. That's not like me. And I think, I think it. It, for me, it's about, you know, stepping back and realizing that every single person has a story behind why they're in, the struggles that they're in. And sometimes the story is obvious, and sometimes it's not obvious, and sometimes it's long and complicated. And so I. I'm not someone who's like, oh, it's all simple. Let's just, you know, if we stop diagnosing people, there won't be problems. Life is really hard, messy, sometimes violent, awful things happen. I'm not pretending there's some easy solution here, but I think we need to all realize that every struggling person has a story. And the current mental health industry doesn't often make space for those stories to.
- [58:02]
Tudor Dixon
Be understood and help people to cope through life on a regular basis. And so I want to just end on what you're doing now because you're kind of coaching folks who do say, say, I want to get rid of these medications from my life, from my life, and I want to move on and I want to feel healthy. And I think I read something where someone said, I felt like it would happen right away because it seemed like it happened right away for Laura. But you just said it can take years to get somebody off of one of these medications. So if you can explain a little bit about how you talk people through this. And then also I got the impression that you also coach them through those moments of, I'm having a panic attack, I must be having a relapse. No, you can get through it. There are ways to get through it. So tell us a little bit about that.
- [58:51]
Podcast Host
So for. For anyone who's kind of on. On a medication, trying to come off of it or has. Have tried in the past and didn't go well, you know, I. First, there's this nonprofit that I started, intercompass Initiative, and. And so over there, we provide people with free information and resources for learning about all so many of the things we talked about today and more. Learn about how to read the drug label for your medication so you can better understand its risk profile and all of that. How to learn about the history of the dsm. You know, we have all that information there because I think it starts there. It starts with educating yourself with which is not easy. It takes time and it can. It can be complicated. So we, we have everything organized on our website that we think is, you know, what people need to know that they're not being told. And we also over there have A self directed tapering manual. So we basically took all of the layperson wisdom in the withdrawal community, and by that I mean the tens upon tens of thousands of people all around the world who have been forced to figure out for themselves how to taper off of these meds safely. Because the medical system does not acknowledge this is a real issue. There no safe tapering protocols that have been officially endorsed in the United States. So we lay people have become the experts on this. So we have a free manual at the website that walks through how people taper off of these drugs, right down to pictures of how you, you know, use a syringe to make a liquid mixture. It's like very granular over there. And we have a community over there as well of people helping each other in a mutual aid capacity. I do offer, you know, coaching and consulting support to people who want one on one support. I don't do a lot of it. I do, but I, I, I know it's an important thing to, to, to offer people and that's separate from the nonprofit. And we also have a group support program where people at all stages of the journey off of these meds can kind of come together and really like figure out how to, how to, to feel and be with themselves in the wake of all of this. Because that's the thing when you, when you're psychiatrized. So many of us are so afraid of our pain and of being with ourselves that when we decide to leave it all behind, we have to learn how to do that, how to just be and not try to fix it, like you said, not try to shut it down. So but the way I see it, there should be freely available information and resources and community for people. People shouldn't have to pay. You shouldn't have to pay me. You shouldn't have to pay anyone. And that's why our non profit ICI exists. Because we believe it's a right for all people to get this for free.
- [61:43]
Tudor Dixon
What you just said, afraid of being with ourselves, that really strikes a chord because I do think that a lot of people have felt like, oh, I'm too scary without some sort of aid. And this is helping people through that. You have a book too. Can you tell us about the book? Quickly, quickly before we get off.
- [62:04]
Podcast Host
It's called Unshrunk A story of Psychiatric Treatment Resistance. And it's available at, through my website, lauradelano.com or an all fine Booksellers. And it's a memoir about all of this plus a lot of research and history woven in. And my hope is that it just helps continue this conversation and and can serve as something hopeful for people that there's another story for you beyond what the mental health industry tells you about yourself.
- [62:28]
Tudor Dixon
I love it. Thank you so much. Laura Delano I I It's been a joy talking to you and I know I kept you extra long and I just, I want to say I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Such an important topic.
- [62:39]
Podcast Host
Oh Tutor. I'm so honored to be on your podcast and thanks for everything you do. I'm so happy to be here.
- [62:44]
Tudor Dixon
Oh absolutely. And thank you all for joining the Tutor Dixon Podcast for this episode and others. Go to tutordixonpodcast.com the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or whatever, wherever you get your podcasts and join us next time. You can also watch the video on Rumble uterdixon. Join us next time and have a blessed day.
- [63:02]
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- [63:34]
Tudor Dixon
You see a headline but don't have time to read the whole story. Or there's so much news you're not sure what is worth your time. I'm Colby Ekowitz, co host of Post Reports, the weekday afternoon podcast from the Washington Post. Post Reports brings you what's relevant and revealing. Breaking stories, politics, wellness, culture. Each episode goes beyond a headline for the context you need. Find Post Reports now wherever you're listening.
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Tudor Dixon
Went down that day.
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Armstrong and Getty Host
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We're not boring. A lot of news is boring and.
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Podcast Host
You don't want to live your life like that.
- [65:16]
Armstrong and Getty Host
Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong.
- [65:18]
Podcast Host
He's Joe Getty.
- [65:18]
Public.com Advertiser
We're Armstrong and Getty.
- [65:19]
Armstrong and Getty Host
We try to bring you the truth.
- [65:20]
Public.com Advertiser
And help you figure out this crazy.
- [65:22]
Tudor Dixon
Modern world about something about a comedic tone.
- [65:28]
Public.com Advertiser
We have a winner.
- [65:29]
Armstrong and Getty Host
Yes. Listen to Armstrong. You get it on Demand on the.
- [65:32]
Podcast Host
Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.