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The Tudor Dixon Podcast: Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House with Jonathan Allen
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- [00:00]
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Washington Post Host
Efficient way to get caught up on a lot of news. It's called the seven from the Washington Post.
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Tudor Dixon
It's a newsletter and podcast.
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Washington Post Host
Whether you're reading or hit play, you get seven stories you need to know.
- [00:45]
Tudor Dixon
And you can consume it all in just a few minutes.
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Washington Post Host
The 7 is out every weekday morning by 7:00am Eastern.
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Tudor Dixon
I'm Hannah Jewell, I'm one of the writers and I host the show.
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Washington Post Host
Find the seven Podcast wherever you're listening. The newsletter link is waiting for you.
- [01:00]
Ryan Seacrest
In the show notes it is Ryan Seacrest here.
- [01:03]
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Jonathan Allen
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Tudor Dixon
The Tudor Dixon Podcast. This one should Be very interesting because I think all through the 2024 election we were all saying, gosh, I cannot wait until like 20 years from now. There's a book on this and we know exactly what happened behind the scenes. But we didn't have to wait for 20 years because Jonathan Allen wrote it for us. So today we get to talk to him. He's the NBC News senior national politics reporter and he teamed up with Hill's Amy Parnes to write this book. It's called Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House. Jonathan, thank you for joining me.
- [03:08]
Jonathan Allen
It's my pleasure. I'm excited to talk to an experienced campaigner.
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Tudor Dixon
Well, I actually was reading through this and I'm like, this is the behind the scenes that people don't know. And the amount of information the candidate doesn't know, you kind of highlight how much they keep from the candidate. Which as a former candidate, it's like, oh, it makes you so mad. You know, you read it, you're like, this is so embarrassing that you are kind of kept in this cloud of, I don't know, I guess you're kept in a cloud of joy to keep you happy. And it makes sense.
- [03:45]
Jonathan Allen
I mean, I think it is, it's a joy bubble. The idea is to make the candidate comfortable and for the staff to make as many decisions as possible without the candidate and around the candidate. I mean they, it's really like managing somebody, you know, managing up campaign manager and others. And I think that, I think that there are certain politicians and certainly those who have become more experienced who sometimes say to themselves, you know what? It is better for me to have a more hands on role in managing my own campaign because I now understand what it is that they're keeping from me and what it is. I'm not being told what it is. I should be being told what it is that we should be doing that we're not doing. And I think actually to your point, and I'm glad you brought it up, no one has before, you really get a sense of how much a candidate is in a cocoon and depending on the candidate, some are more so and some less so.
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Tudor Dixon
Well, and this was such an interesting race because I think a lot of people were saying for a long time, well, I know a lot of people on the right side were saying, joe Biden's off. And I think there was this ability to kind of play it off as he's not because that's just the attack from the right. And maybe even at the beginning it was pushed A little bit more than he was. But if you look at the recordings of him in 2019-23 to 24, there's a striking difference. And you start to highlight that behind the scenes, there's a bit of a crack in the facade.
- [05:16]
Jonathan Allen
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the thing is, I think even in 2020, when he ran, it was clear he'd lost something off his fastball. For those of us who covered him in Congress or during the vice presidency, this was a guy that was a chatterbox. You couldn't get him to shut up, you know, who would talk to reporters about anything, and then suddenly, you know, he's being hidden, you know, effectively. In 2020, the pandemic, you know, because of the pandemic, there were some reasons, you know, you weren't going to have big events with big crowds. But at the same time, I think his team used that as an excuse to not talk to the press much. And so you could see that there was some slippage there. But it wasn't necessarily an acuity thing. Maybe a little bit. It's harder to tell. I'm not a doctor, but he wasn't the same guy in 2020. But there's a progression. People get older, and if they are suffering from a loss of acuity, that gets more acute over time.
- [06:09]
Tudor Dixon
And we didn't see him. So that made us even more skeptical. You know, even once he becomes president, he doesn't hold press conferences, he doesn't take questions. And then there was the weird. Like, he starts to take questions, but he's calling out specific reporters, which just felt odd, certainly.
- [06:26]
Jonathan Allen
And for a guy who spent his entire career having great relationships with reporters and knowing them by name and asking about their kids, you know, there was just a noticeable difference. And we have episodes in the book or scenes in the book, where different Democrats come to the realization that what Republicans are saying about Joe Biden is not unfounded. And in some cases more, because you made the point that Democrats were able to sort of delude themselves into thinking this is a Republican talking point. We live in such partisan times. But for all of those, all of us who watch Joe Biden on television, whether we are people who have spent time with him or not, we could tell there was a problem, or we could tell there was a difference. Eric Swalwell, the congressman from California, goes to a picnic at the White House in 2023. In the summer of 2023, he had run against Joe Biden in the 2020 primary, and he starts to talk to Biden and Biden doesn't know who he is. And swallow has to kind of cue Biden to know who Swalwell is. And Swalwell was like an impeachment manager against Trump. This is not somebody who most of Washington doesn't know. I mean, I understand not everybody in the country, not everybody who's not watching cable news, you know, knows Eric Swalwell, but he is a well known guy. Biden doesn't recognize him. Biden's talking to donors in June of 2023 and just freezes, you know, sort of the episode is described similar to what we saw from Senator McConnell a few years ago, where, you know, he would just kind of freeze up. And so folks who didn't see him all the time, but every once in a while noticed a precipitous decline in his capacity.
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Tudor Dixon
Well, I think the Swalwell chapter was kind of interesting because he says, I mean, he clearly thought that was strange. And you would, because if you have been on the debate stage with someone, you certainly recognize them when you see them off the debate stage. So he definitely thought that that was odd. And then he comments later that in the debate he, they're joking about, oh, you're going to jail, man, because the debate was so bad.
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Jonathan Allen
Yeah, so that's, that's right. It's Swalwell and Ruben Gallego, who's now a senator from Arizona. They're watching the debate with their wives and there's a knock at the door. And of course, the debate is going terribly for the Democrats. There's this knock at the door and Gallego, you know, looks at Swalwell and he's like, man, it's over, it's up. You're going to jail, Trump's president, and you better run. And it turns out it's Uber eats at the door. And the whole time Swalwell's going to the door, Gallego's like keeping up the act. He's like, look, man, if you need to run, I can find a place for you to hide. He's from Arizona. He's like, I know people in the tribes. It's kind of a light moment in a very, at a very dark time for the Democrats.
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Tudor Dixon
I think that's exactly what it is because I think there is this moment, I mean, just the way you describe it in the book. And I encourage people to read it because it is truly a behind the scenes. And I don't know how you got all of the behind the scenes, but the knowledge that you have of Nancy Pelosi sitting alone and it's interesting because I think when politics is really personal to you and when you're very highly engaged, these are kind of moments you don't want to be around a bunch of people. I remember being invited to go to a watch party, and you're like, if I go to the watch party, a, everybody's going to be talking and I won't hear it. And what if it goes horribly wrong? And.
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Jonathan Allen
And I think you're such a Midwesterner. Like, you just. You just wrote a whole book about, like, the Midwestern frame of mind, like, right there.
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Tudor Dixon
Because we all go and watch it together and talk.
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Jonathan Allen
I know you're just quietly thinking to yourself, well, what. What if all this goes wrong?
- [10:05]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah, well, of course. Yeah. And that was. Honestly, I'm like, beforehand, we had. I. I remember going to an event beforehand, and people were like, I cannot wait. It's going to be amazing. And I'm like, I'm just gonna. I wanna make sure it's amazing. I just wanna feel like it's gonna be great. Because you didn't know who Joe Biden was at that point. We didn't know he had had the State of the Union, and he seemed lucid, and people were like, it's not like you can just turn it on and turn it off. You can't be lucid one minute and totally lose it the next. But in the book, you say that he had days where he was getting to the point where he had more foggy days than clear, clear days. And that is kind of how things go, which is. It's not a. It's not a book. It's not something to gloat about. And I just want you to know that when you read it and you're on the right side of the aisle, you don't read it and go, ha, ha ha, we were right. You read it and you go, how did this happen?
- [11:00]
Jonathan Allen
That's. I mean, it's sad on a human level, right? I mean, anyone aging, anyone who's having struggle, struggles with their. Their acuity, and, you know, in the case of Joe Biden, somebody who spent a. Spent a career in. In public service and has now subjected himself to the biggest spotlight in the world and has the worst moment that anyone has seen from him or anybody else in a presidential debate, you know, with that bright spotlight on him that said free, is that this was the leader of the free world, so clearly bereft of coherent thought even for a moment, right? Even if that was the worst moment, I think a large number of Americans thought to themselves, the president of the United States cannot have any moments like that.
- [11:49]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah, we have no leader.
- [11:50]
Jonathan Allen
I mean, that's how it was frightening. It should have been frightening. And if you weren't frightened by it, you know that I think that's an indication of the degree to which you're a partisan supporter of Joe Biden. And that's not to disparage people who are partisan supporters of candidates. But you'd have to be that, to have that level of delusion and not be concerned by what you saw in the leader of the free world, the person with his finger on the nuclear butt.
- [12:17]
Tudor Dixon
Well, and people who I would have thought would be like, you know what? He had a bad night and we're going to rally around didn't. And it's very. The phone tree that ensues after the debate that you talk, that you write about is quite enlightening to have Nancy Pelosi and everybody is suddenly texting, who, what are we going to do? This is it, he's done. And I don't think that they fully, at that point, and you correct me if I'm wrong, grasp that they're going to pull him, they're going to put someone else. They're kind of free falling, like, what just happened? What did we just see?
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Jonathan Allen
I think it's a spectrum. And one of the things we tried to do with the book is show that spectrum of reaction. Some people are, you know, the Biden campaign is like, it's just a bad night. And everybody else is like, cut the crap. It's not just a bad night. But they have different levels of. Of how much worse it was than a bad night. I think Pelosi immediately realized that this was probably fatal for the Biden campaign. The question of how to get Biden out and who would replace him is something that she wrestled with over the course of the next three and a half weeks, as the Democratic Party did. But she instantly, her instinct, according to somebody who talked to her at the time, was she was worried that there would be such a bum rush to get Biden out that night. Remember, she's getting text messages and phone calls from donors from members of Congress, from other political leaders, and she's realizing how alarmed they are, and she's like, he's going to get such a bum rush that we're going to end up with Kamala Harris and never stop or pause to think about whether that's a good decision. And so I think she tried to manage that process as best as she could. Tried to keep her fingerprints off of it for a while, and at some point, it became impossible for her to keep her fingerprints off of it because none of the other Democrats would have, you know, basically had the courage to push Biden out.
- [14:08]
Tudor Dixon
But the weird thing to me is there does seem to be. There's this undertone of it can't be Harris. Throughout that period, there's a lot of people who are panicked about it. And then there's kind of the discussion of how Whitmer had been the choice, the second choice. Now, it's interesting because from Michigan, we had been told Whitmer was the first choice and that her staff had actually started looking at real estate down there. And then at the last minute, that was kind of, like, pulled. Hey, no. And that race discussion came into play. He said it would be a black woman. It has to be a black woman. You can't be the candidate. And yet, when it comes down, which I think is sort of an interesting identity politics issue, because when it comes down to we need a new candidate, it seems like the majority of people are jumping toward Whitmer, but they get pulled. No, it has to be Harris.
- [15:02]
Jonathan Allen
Yeah, I don't know if it's the majority of people. You know what's fascinating from the Michigan perspective, and maybe this isn't surprising. On the night of the debate, Hillary Skelton from Michigan, the congresswoman, is in a group chat with a bunch of Democratic women, members of Congress, and she texts Whitmer for president. Like, Biden's, like, still in Atlanta. You know, the debate has just gone on, and she's like, whitmer for president. And the response. And then somebody else on the. On the chain echoes that. And then some women from the Congressional Black Caucus start pushing back. And they're not pushing back, saying, hey, Joe's our guy. They're saying, you know, over our dead body is Kamala Harris gonna get skipped over. So to the question of, like, how early were some of the people looking at this as the end of Joe Biden? It was certainly long before he. He dropped out. Yeah. Whitmer was scarred from that first experience. She really didn't like the political infighting that went on. She felt like she had been depicted poorly along racial lines in the battle with Harris, the sort of shadow battle to become Joe Biden's vice presidential pick. And it's something she didn't really invite. She felt like she walked out of that weaker and having been accused of things that she wasn't. That she didn't really feel were fair in order to make her look bad. And we all know politics, I mean, politicians will use whatever they can for whatever reason.
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Tudor Dixon
Yeah, I'm not gonna shed a lot of tears over that, but, you know, that's personal.
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Jonathan Allen
But she felt that it harmed her to the point that she called Kamala Harris a couple days after the debate and said, I'm not gonna run for president under anything.
- [16:45]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah, I thought that was interesting, that conversation.
- [16:48]
Jonathan Allen
And that's never been reported before, first time in our book.
- [16:51]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah, and I was impressed with that. It was a. Hey, I'm not even trying. This is not. Don't feel like I'm trying to encroach on your lane right now. I'm not trying to do this. Don't send your dogs after me, Basically.
- [17:05]
Jonathan Allen
And you know, the Harris people, at least some people related to Harris. I gotta be careful with my sourcing here. You know, openly admitted that they, you know, openly admitted that they did some political dirty tricks on Whitmer back in. Back in the 20, 20 days. You know, it was not a false perception that Whitmer had that Kamala Harris's team would do everything they could to undermine her if they felt like she was a problem. So she made the call and said, like, you know, basically, if she's not going to run for president under any circumstances, why. Why take the pain of somebody thinking you are and trying to take you out?
- [17:39]
Tudor Dixon
And eventually she does want to. So she was not wanting to ruin her reputation by any means. I mean, I think everybody here kind of has seen the trajectory of her political career. And she's smart, she knows what she's doing. She doesn't ruined. She wants to have an opportunity in the future. So I give her credit as a politician for doing that. She saw the future and she said, I'm not gonna let this wreck it. But still, not everybody else in the party was on board with Harris. And even Obama wasn't really on board with Harris. He wanted an open primary.
- [18:09]
Jonathan Allen
Yeah, that's right. You know, we report in this book on sort of all the behind the scenes conversations. Obama and Biden, Obama and Pelosi, they had a couple conversations about what to do about Biden, you know, Biden and Pelosi, you know, as he's trying to stay in and she's trying to destabilize him. And Pelosi didn't want Harris, Obama didn't want Harris. Biden wanted Biden certainly more than Harris and did some things over the course of that process and afterward that were really harmful to Harris. And so he ends up, he endorses her. But, you know, he obviously didn't want her to be the Democratic nominee. He wanted to be the Democratic nominee. And the problem for the Democrats was a lot of them at the very high level looked at Kamala Harris and said she's not the best candidate. We can do better than her. And I'm not sure that a the grassroots voters agreed with that because she was the vice president that they've been supportive of for the last several years. Like it takes a lot for people to hear how great she is for three or four years and then decide, well, no, I no longer think she's great. But the bigger problem for them was, and you got to this a little bit, I think the racial and gender politics of the Democrats trying to pass over a black woman vice president, like that's not happening in the Democratic Party. Like the writing was on the wall. There is no world in which that happens in the Democratic Party without them sacrificing the next three or four elections because the fear would be you'd have an open war over it and ultimately black voters would be angry about it. Not all black voters would be angry about it. I don't mean to suggest a monolith, but the party influencers would be pretty pissed for a long time.
- [20:02]
Tudor Dixon
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- [25:04]
Tudor Dixon
So do you think for Biden it was just about I, I want it to be me, or do you think that there was not always, I mean, we always have been curious about the relationship between the two of them because it never felt like it was warm and cozy. It did always kind of feel like it was an arranged marriage. Do you think it was just that he wanted to the president or was he like, I don't think she's even as good as me?
- [25:27]
Jonathan Allen
I think both. I mean, you know, but I think what's interesting about all of this is you sort of get this exposure of which of the political players in the Democratic Party are putting the interests of the party and because partisans believe that their party is good for the country, the interests of the country above themselves and which ones are putting themselves above those things. And we see that play out in real time in the aftermath of the debate. And Biden continually puts himself in front of everything else. And, you know, maybe that's, you know, maybe people who become president of the United States are A, that and b, good at hiding that they're that, you know, I mean, that I think there's something to that, that, you know, perhaps Biden was that way all along but better at hiding it than some, you know, President Trump doesn't even try to hide it. He's like, I'm, I'm out for me, but out for me is good for you. And so accept the out for me. And I think that's one of the reasons people find him authentic is that he's not trying to cover up that he has a self interest, and he will pursue the self interest, and he believes that self interest is in line with the interests of the public. But traditionally, you kind of try to hide that if you have it. Biden doesn't hide it. Once the debate happens, his staff starts bashing Kamala Harris to donors and to politicians, and they're saying, like, you know, if you keep on pushing on Biden to get out, you're gonna end up with Harris, and that's gonna be disaster for the party. This is the sitting vice president of the United States and clearly the most likely person to take over. If he steps aside and his team is just like, you know, taking a baseball bat to her kneecaps.
- [27:08]
Tudor Dixon
That. I mean, to be honest, that seems very crazy, because I think, as Americans, we've always sort of felt vice president and the president were a team, and you never. You certainly don't want them against each other. And so that was surprising. But then. But then it does. They. They all come together. It's Kamala. We talked about that weird feeling of you. You don't. You're kept in the dark as the candidate. That was also very shocking to me that she was overwhelmingly surprised that she lost. But if you're. If you take yourself, it's hard because I lived this. The campaign as well.
- [27:47]
Jonathan Allen
Very similar.
- [27:48]
Tudor Dixon
Right? So I. I feel like I. I maybe I read that differently. And I think that you have. She's having these rallies, and I'm watching on tv, and I'm like, if I'm her, I think this too. I've got Beyonce. I've got Oprah. These rallies are huge. There's so many people coming. Everywhere I go, people love me. You know, it's like such a. There's so much energy. It's so hyped. I've got Bar behind me. The entire party is behind me. I'm the person. And the polls. The polls on tv, I mean, the national polls that we're seeing have it very close. The one, like, chink in the armor is that you see Alyssa Slotkin start running ads with Donald Trump, and then other Senate candidates start running ads with Donald Trump. And it's like, there's this time when here in Michigan, we go, are they not releasing really bad numbers? Because why is Alyssa Slotkin putting Trump in her ads? This is very weird. She wins, Kamala loses.
- [28:53]
Jonathan Allen
I think the Democrats call that a permission structure, which is Alyssa Slotkin saying, it's okay, to vote for both Trump and me knowing, you know, sensing that Trump is in a better spot in Michigan and that she's going to lose more, you know, being stapled to Kamala Harris than stapled to Donald Trump. And she worried about that all along. Another thing we report in this book for the first time, the day that Donald Trump is shot In Butler, Pennsylvania, July 13, at the same time, roughly the same time, Alyssa Slotkin is at a fundraiser on Long island in New York. And Adam Schiff, the congressman from California who's also running for Senate, gets up and basically says, you know, it's time to get rid of Biden. Biden to a small group of donors. And then Slatkin gets up and she starts basically making the case that Biden is better for her and for other Democrats down ballot than Harris. And she's basically, Biden's not very good. We could all see he was old. We could all see that this is a problem. But Kamala Harris is gonna get tied to the woke left, and she is not a good candidate, and she is gonna bring us down, and we can't have a fight where we skip over her because that will destroy our party. So basically, her message is leave Biden in place. And that was never reported until this point in time.
- [30:15]
Tudor Dixon
I've never heard that.
- [30:16]
Jonathan Allen
And it's very frank from her. And to your point about the ads she ran later, you know, this was something she had some time to think about. Was Kamala Harris good for her or bad for her? And she thought the answer was bad.
- [30:27]
Ryan Seacrest
For her, and she was right.
- [30:29]
Tudor Dixon
I mean, her ads were effective.
- [30:31]
Jonathan Allen
Tudor, I want to say something just because you mentioned the surprise that she has on that Kamala Harris has on election night. And we go into real detail about the last hours of the campaign and what she's hearing from her aides and advisors and even take you into the living quarters of the Vice president's residence when she finds out that she's lost and. And can't really compute, it can't really figure out what happened here because I saw the crowds, I saw the love. My team told me that I, you know, I was in good position to win. My senior advisor, David Plouffe, told the country we were going to win all seven swing states. And here I've lost. You know, kind of, you know, what the f happened? I don't know if I'm allowed to curse on your podcast, but she's kind of like, what the F happened? And like, she was gaslit, too. She felt that way and the reason that I bring this up is not so much about the gaslighting, but it's because of something you said. You started to talk about that a little bit. If you read this book, you will get to know these characters in ways that I think on the Democratic side and on the Republican side in ways that I think really reflect humanity, both strength and weakness. And sometimes it's the same trait that's a strength and a weakness in a way that you normally don't see in politicians. And so what I would say for readers is I think it's illuminating in that way, not just the fresh scoops of news and things you didn't hear about during the election, but I really think there's an interesting set of character studies here. And I thought it was fascinating for you to bring up having that feeling yourself, you know, campaigning, because there are so many commonalities between all of us as human beings. And, you know, I mean, I'm not in a party, but I watch a lot of people in parties and I sometimes think to myself, you know, the two of them are so much alike that they hate each other. Not the two parties, the two people I'll look at and I'll be like, these people hate each other, but really they have so many similar human experiences. And I think the book gets into some of that character study.
- [32:34]
Tudor Dixon
Well, let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the Tudor Dixon Podcast.
- [32:42]
Washington Post Host
I'm Molly Roberts.
- [32:43]
Ryan Seacrest
And I'm Drew Goins. Each Friday on Impromptu, we talk through the we can't stop thinking about do.
- [32:49]
Tudor Dixon
We need to rethink how much we drink?
- [32:51]
Ryan Seacrest
Why are companies really asking workers to come back to the office?
- [32:54]
Jonathan Allen
Does boycotting a business actually work?
- [32:56]
Ryan Seacrest
Should we quit social media?
- [32:57]
Tudor Dixon
We're here when the news gets personal.
- [32:59]
Washington Post Host
And the headlines hit home.
- [33:01]
Ryan Seacrest
Join Molly and me every Friday on Impromptu from Washington Post opinions.
- [33:06]
Christina Quinn
Find Impromptu wherever you get your podcasts.
- [33:11]
Preborn Representative
This month and every month, we remember the over 66 million babies whose lives have been senselessly sacrificed on the altar of abortion. Surely the left doesn't understand the repercussions of a land that takes the blood of the innocent. And that should only motivate us more to save more babies lives. Preborn's network of clinics fight every day to save more babies. And to date they have rescued over 300,000 babies lives. By introducing a mother to her child on ultrasound, a baby's chances at life doubles. And that's not all. Preborn showers, mothers and babies with God's love and assistance for up to two years. When they shout abortion, we shout life. Let's save more babies. One ultrasound is just $28 and $140 will help rescue five babies. Any amount will help and all gifts are tax deductible. To donate securely dial £250 and say the keyword baby. That's £250 baby. Or go to preborn.com hope that's preborn.com hope preborn.com hope you know Israel is still under attack.
- [34:25]
International Fellowship of Christians and Jews Representative
Missile fire has resumed from the Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas enemies seeking Israel's destruction. This is the reality since October 7, 2023. Parents now taking their kids to school, falling to the ground to lay on top of their small children to protect them because sirens are blaring because of incoming rocket attacks. The next attack against Israel is happening right now. That's why your generosity is critical. That's why we have partnered with the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews to help provide not only humanitarian assistance, but life saving aid and security essentials. Your urgently needed gift today will help provide security essentials. It will provide bomb shelters, flak jackets, bulletproof vests for first responders and so much more. Call now 888-488-IFCJ, 888-488-IFCj or one word supportifcj.org, that's one word supportifcj.org or 888-488ifcj.
- [35:23]
Washington Post Host
For some of us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves, loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent, where money means more. Connect with us@thrivent.com you know how we're.
- [35:54]
Ryan Seacrest
Always talking about what's next? Well, I found it. It's called Formula E. Forget everything you think you know about racing. This isn't just cars going fast. It's like a super computer on wheels. The tech is insane and the drivers, they're like chess grandmasters at 200 miles per hour. You've got to see it. Trust me, you'll be hooked. Follow Formula E live on Roku next race. Miami, April 12.
- [36:25]
Tudor Dixon
When you take us into Nancy Pelosi's living room, you know, these are figures that I've watched for years and sometimes decades. And you know, I'm not on the same side of the aisle as Nancy Pelosi. But I certainly can respect what she's done in life and I can respect the power that she has wielded and the way she has wielded it. And sometimes I don't agree with, a lot of times I don't agree with her or what she does, but I respect the way she's been able to get things done. But then I'm in her living room and I'm watching her in a vulnerable, in my mind's eye, through the book, in a vulnerable position, which we all have experienced, you know, but, but this is something that she's vulnerable and it affects all of our lives, you know, and, and Susie Wiles in this book, and you talk about her and when she has that realization, if they can't get him through lawfare, then maybe they kill him and she's upset. And that is the Susie that I know, Susie that I know is she will fight to the end for you. But you become like family. The people around her become like family.
- [37:35]
Jonathan Allen
And there's a reason she has so many loyal and competent people around her. Her. And it's that. Right. I mean, you know, she's, she has this premonition, this scary premonition, you know, that they may, they may try, you know, that somebody may try to take a shot at Trump. And, and she, you know, she's tearing up. And here's somebody, you know, you always see the pictures of her, you know, the sunglasses and the, you know, the, you know, I'm sure it's a perfectly modestly and appropriately paid for haircut, but, you know, perfectly, perfectly bobbed hair and everything. And, you know, she has like, kind of an iconic look within Republican politics. And you never think of her as somebody who's, you know, gonna kind of melt or be soft. And here she is thinking about the possibility, you know, think about all the things Donald Trump has gone through and then thinking, you know, what else can happen to this man? And then it kind of strikes her and she just tears up and starts crying and a little kitchenette met in Trump Tower with just one other aide that's with her at the time. And, you know, she turned out to be right, that somebody took a shot at President Trump. You know, I think it can be easy to conflate political opposition with lunatics, and I think in this case seems to be a lunatic. But the idea that Donald Trump had to go through more to win re election than any candidate that we've, you know, ever seen, you know, that's, that's true.
- [39:02]
Tudor Dixon
And their team was so tight through it. I think that the way you just described her is. I mean, that's the Susie that I know. And I think you're right. When someone treats you, they become so close. You know, she. She doesn't work for him because it's a good job. She believes in him, she cares about him. She cares about everybody on that staff, like you would not believe. And she, she bring, like. Like I said, she brings people in. And you may not agree with the politics of it, just like I said about Nancy Pelosi, but you can respect the ability to get things done.
- [39:39]
Jonathan Allen
Yeah. There's good people who wear red jerseys and good people who wear blue jerseys and people who go about things the right way. Look, you know, you were talking about Pelosi a minute ago. I can't tell you how many Republicans tell me that they wish they had a Nancy Pelosi on their side, you know? Yeah, that's a common sentiment. I think she's tough and she knows what she wants to get accomplished. And, you know, within her party, she puts. She takes a moral high ground so that you may disagree with her on the morality of an issue, but from within the party structure, what do the Democrats believe? She kind of takes the moral high ground. She's like, we're going to try to get Democrats elected. We're going to try to get a Democratic president, Democratic House, Democratic Senate, and here are the things we have to do that, do that, and I'm willing to sacrifice for it. I'm going to raise all the money. And in this case, she sacrificed her friendship with Joe Biden, a friendship of 40 or 50 years, because she thought that instead of the country being saved by Joe Biden, the country needed to be saved from Joe Biden. And I don't think that was easy for her.
- [40:37]
Tudor Dixon
So let me ask you this, though. I know I've kept you a little long, but let me ask you this before I let you go.
- [40:43]
Jonathan Allen
Great time tutor.
- [40:44]
Tudor Dixon
I am, too.
- [40:45]
Jonathan Allen
This is better than Rogan.
- [40:49]
Tudor Dixon
I could talk to you probably for hours, to be honest. But I do want to ask because I've been thinking about the fact that there seems to be this identity crisis in the Democrat Party. And I feel like this is something that we went through after 2020. Trump lost the election. We all went, what is going to happen? And nobody understood. People were just kind of flailing, like, who do we connect ourselves to right now? Donald Trump wasn't in the position that Joe Biden is. You know, people were still super connected to him, but There wasn't anybody elected. That was that Nancy Pelosi figure. But now I look at the Republicans, I'm like, you know, we have. We have Donald Trump, we have JD Vance, we have Mike Johnson. There are definite people in place that I think that the Republicans love, you know, and they feel like those people will go to bat for them. Nancy Pelosi never handed that down. Do you think that was a mistake?
- [41:47]
Jonathan Allen
So, I mean, in a technical sense, she stepped aside, but you're right, she didn't go away. She remained speaker, emerita or whatever the hell that is, pardon my French. But they gave her some new fancy title, which is sort of meaningless. And she continues to be a big fundraiser, and she continues to be influential. And I think her hope was that Hakeem Jeffries would, you know, kind of take up the mantle. And, you know, she could mentor him a little bit, but he is not proven to. I mean, it's a heck of a vacuum when she steps aside.
- [42:18]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah.
- [42:18]
Jonathan Allen
And he has not filled those shoes yet. And I'm not sure, you know, the Manolo Blahniks fit him. But we'll find out. I guess we'll find out at some point. Yeah, she hasn't gone away. And then there is a huge vacuum for the Democrats, just like there was for the Republicans. The difference is Donald Trump was, like, never went away, to your point, and he wanted to. To play in primaries. And, like, I think it was pretty clear, you know, fairly early on that he was going to try to come back. And there's just nobody like that in the Democratic Party, where you're like, can't wait to find out what that person does. You know, I mean, there's people. We're watching.
- [42:58]
Tudor Dixon
I know. No, but we all thought it was. Honestly, I think a lot of people thought it was Michelle Obama. People are like, she's definitely making a play for it. And then, you know, a couple months ago, she comes out on her podcast. She's like, yeah, I'm done. I want nothing to do with it.
- [43:12]
Jonathan Allen
So now politics.
- [43:13]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah, she hates it.
- [43:15]
Jonathan Allen
Martha's Vineyard and, like, make. Make movies. And you know what? Like, God bless her, because I would love to do that.
- [43:21]
Tudor Dixon
You know, and she. She didn't. I don't think that people realize that not everybody is Hillary Clinton. Not every spouse signs up for it and wants to then take over. You know, I think there are political power couples, but I think she really enjoyed being first lady and she enjoys her time at home now.
- [43:38]
Jonathan Allen
Yeah, absolutely. And look, I think if it had been up to her, aside from, you know, the great wealth that it has brought them. And I don't mean that in any sort of conspiratorial or corrupt way. I just mean, you know, she wrote a book that sold like 800 billion copies. And, you know, I mean, aside from that, I'm sure she would have been happy to never be first lady at all. She just doesn't, she doesn't want to have to be somebody other than who she is. And there are such constraints on the roles of politicians and particularly first ladies. There's such a set of constraints like protocols and, you know, what you're supposed to do. And we don't see it as much for the first ladies, I guess, or we don't talk about it as much, but huge constraints on them on the way that they're supposed to behave and act and in public and in private and in throwing state dinners. And it's not for everybody. Some people just want to be themselves.
- [44:34]
Tudor Dixon
Right, I know. So we, so we sit here and we watch and we are, I mean, I think even on the Republican side, it is a different feel because it's only four years. We know it's only four years. So we wonder. There are some people that are debating that, I admit, but I think the general public is thinking, you know, what happens in four years? Does Kamala Harris come back? Is Cory Booker trying to make a comeback? Who is, Is it Gretchen Whitmer? Who is the, the darling that they're trying to bring into that? You know, it's kind of like a gap between the octogenarians and the 30 year olds. You know, it's like there's a gap in the party.
- [45:17]
Jonathan Allen
I'm, I'm Generation X and we will never have power.
- [45:23]
Tudor Dixon
Why, yes, me too. I know.
- [45:25]
Jonathan Allen
We're getting scared.
- [45:26]
Tudor Dixon
Yes, I know. Yeah, I'm mad about it, too. Why? What happened to our. Was our generation just so mad about it? They're like, forget it, we're not doing it. I don't understand.
- [45:38]
Jonathan Allen
I think it's the lack of live births. I think it's simply a population issue. The baby boomers, I mean, think about it like Bill Clinton was a baby boomer, George W. Bush is a baby boomer. Donald Trump is a baby boomer boomer. Joe Biden was older than the baby boomers, but, you know, in the same range. And Donald Trump, again is. The baby boomers are never going to give up power.
- [46:02]
Tudor Dixon
I know, I know. I'm so afraid of my own mother, you know, so they did it. Well, like why is that? Why can't we break through? And I feel like I, maybe I'm just, you know, selfish, but I think our generation is pretty down to earth.
- [46:20]
Jonathan Allen
I agree.
- [46:21]
Tudor Dixon
I mean, the baby boomers, just their Facebook posts alone should scare you.
- [46:25]
Jonathan Allen
I mean, first of all, they're on Facebook and then you've got like, after us, it's like the millennials. And it's like, are you still sleeping on your parents couch?
- [46:35]
Tudor Dixon
Yes.
- [46:35]
Jonathan Allen
Right?
- [46:36]
Tudor Dixon
Yes.
- [46:37]
Jonathan Allen
And you know, my kids are a little younger than that. I have hope for their generation, but not because of any evidence.
- [46:44]
Tudor Dixon
Same, same. I think it's just because they're our kids and so we are, we have hope because we want them to move out eventually. That's why.
- [46:52]
Jonathan Allen
Yeah, just like, please. I hope that someday, I mean, look, I want mine to, you know, grow up and make it, you know, be 18 year old years old in my house and then go, you know, go to school and have wonderful lives. But at some point I definitely want them to move out of the house. And it would be, you know, closer to that 18 mark than say that like 28 or 30.
- [47:10]
Tudor Dixon
Yes, yes. Well, I will say that. One of my daughters, she's an eighth grader this year and she had.
- [47:16]
Jonathan Allen
My son's an eighth grader.
- [47:17]
Tudor Dixon
Serious. So we have like the same life. So she, they did this thing where two kids were candidates for president and she came to the office and she was like, so I have to do a campaign video. And we're like this, you've come to the right place, you know, so she does her campaign video and then the next day they do their, they do their videos, they do their little speech and she comes back to the office and one of the guys in the office goes, so what happened? And she's like, I won. And he said, well, how many votes did you get? She goes, I got the votes. And he was like, how about how many? She's like, I got all the votes. We were like, oh, trouble. This is trouble.
- [47:50]
Jonathan Allen
She rigged it.
- [47:51]
Tudor Dixon
I'm like, yeah, maybe. Yeah. I'm like, huh? What did you do? Were there any illegal maneuverings? Did you bring candy to school? I don't know.
- [48:00]
Jonathan Allen
Did you pay a consultant to make her video?
- [48:02]
Tudor Dixon
She, she is. I should make her pay me with cleaning the house. That's the deal. Like you, we made your video, now you do the work around the house. But somehow she gets out of everything. She is like, if you get your eighth, she is genuinely charming. So I will give her that. She could be a politician one day.
- [48:21]
Jonathan Allen
If you can get your 8th grader to clean the house, you can come. Please come visit me and get my 8th grader to clean that house.
- [48:26]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah. Well, when he is running for president, is it a girl or a boy?
- [48:29]
Jonathan Allen
I got an eighth grade boy and a sixth grade girl.
- [48:32]
Tudor Dixon
So when your son is running for class president, then we will work out a deal. I'll help with the video. We'll get him in cleaning that house.
- [48:38]
Jonathan Allen
That sounds fantastic. I love it.
- [48:40]
Tudor Dixon
Well, it has been a joy to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
- [48:44]
Jonathan Allen
You too. Take care. Care.
- [48:45]
Tudor Dixon
Yes. So, Jonathan Allen. Wait, we gotta. You gotta plug the book put.
- [48:49]
Jonathan Allen
Okay.
- [48:49]
Tudor Dixon
Tell them where to get it.
- [48:51]
Jonathan Allen
Oh, you get the book. It's called Fight Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House. You get it anywhere you buy books. Amazon, bookshop.org Barnes & Noble, Target, or my favorite place, a bookstore. Because I put out a book during the pandemic and I never got to see the book on a shelf in a store. And it was like the saddest thing that is never get to see it. So please buy Fight. Please read Fight. And I'm easy to reach on Twitter, so I'm at John Allen, D.C. tell me what you think of it, whether you like it, whether you hate it, or anywhere in between.
- [49:27]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah, no, I think people will love it, honestly, because it's one. You just get sucked into it. I think the best part about it, and I know I'm letting you go, but I just want to say the best part about the book is you lived it. It in front of the screen. But this takes you into people's homes. It's like. It's like having you're a fly on the wall. I don't know how you did it. I don't know how you got all the information. And I would never ask you to out your sources, but it is incredible. And you really. It is. It's living history. It's like what we're living through right now. So you get to actually, like I said, we expected this book in 20 years, and it's here right now. So go get it. Jonathan Allen, thank you so much.
- [50:03]
Jonathan Allen
Thank you.
- [50:05]
Tudor Dixon
And thank you all for listening to the Tutor Dixon podcast. For this episode and others, go to tutordixenpodcast.com, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And join us next time. Have a blessed day.
- [50:17]
Christina Quinn
Okay, Real talk, we're all kind of hooked on our phones. It's full of shiny apps designed to keep your attention captive forever. But there's real life stuff to do other than scrolling, and I'm here to help. I'm Christina Quinn, the host of Try Try this, a podcast from the Washington Post. The show explores solutions for life's common problems. And this season we're learning to tame the dopamine beast and reclaim our attention in this noisy and distracting world. So let's tame the beast together. Find Try this from the Washington Post. Wherever you listen, you know how we're.
- [50:49]
Ryan Seacrest
Always talking about what's next? Well, I found it. It's called Formula E. Forget everything you think you know about racing. This isn't just cars going fast. It's like a supercomputer on wheels. The tech is insane, and the drivers, they're like chess grandmasters at 200 miles per hour. You've got to see it. Trust me, you'll be hooked. Follow Formula E live on Roku Next race, Miami, April 12 for some of.
- [51:19]
Washington Post Host
Us, personal finances aren't just personal. They include a lot more people than ourselves. Loved ones, neighbors, the communities we call home, and the causes we hold in our hearts. At Thrivent, we help plan your financial picture with the bigger picture in mind. Because even though our business is helping guide your finances, our ambition is to make it mean so much more. Thrivent, where money means more. Connect with us@thrivent.com I'm Rodney Williams.
- [51:49]
Jonathan Allen
And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the Wealth Great podcast, a real conversation about finance. Let's be honest, building wealth doesn't look the same for everyone.
- [52:00]
Tudor Dixon
I feel like sometimes being broke is a cycle and that we might have to revisit that.
- [52:05]
Jonathan Allen
And we're not stopping at success stories. What happens when it doesn't go right?
- [52:09]
Preborn Representative
How do you cope with it?
- [52:10]
Jonathan Allen
Because wealth isn't just about money. It's about creating a life where you thrive and help others do the same. Listen to the Wealth Break podcast on the iHeartRadio app.
- [52:22]
International Fellowship of Christians and Jews Representative
Hey, Clay, if there was a summer.
- [52:23]
Jonathan Allen
Camp for critical thinking, we'd be the chief counselors.
- [52:26]
International Fellowship of Christians and Jews Representative
Those jelly heads in June would be.
- [52:28]
Ryan Seacrest
Intellectual warriors by August.
- [52:31]
International Fellowship of Christians and Jews Representative
Be a lot of fun, too. Some Bill and Ted's excellent adventure references thrown in this podcast. Like a daily dose of that. Minus the campfire, liars, archery and pranking the girls. The bonafide boot camp for critical thinking.
- [52:44]
Ryan Seacrest
You can get in on it for.
- [52:45]
International Fellowship of Christians and Jews Representative
Free at the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast. Just search our names. Clay and Bach. Listen and subscribe.