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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Tudor Dixon Podcast: Kathie Lee Gifford and Bryan Litfin on Nero, Paul, Easter Hope, and Grace
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- [03:36]
Tudor Dixon
learn more@iflag.org that's iflag.org welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. We have a treat for you today. I feel like we are getting towards spring and in Michigan when we get towards spring we have like three or four or five springs before spring actually comes. But there is also the hope that Jesus is coming and that we will see him again and that hope of Easter, Easter and that feeling of just life coming back. And that is something that I get to share with you today through the eyes of two beautiful authors, someone that you probably know from TV but also a beautiful author, Kathie Lee Gifford and Dr. Brian Litfin. They're joining me today because they have a new book out and it is a fabulous way to read about these stories. And it's a story of Nero and Paul and at the end how they kind of intersect. It's called Nero and How the Gospel of Grace Defeated the Ruler of Rome. Thank you two for joining me today.
- [04:40]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Oh so happy to meet you finally. We have so many mutual friends and so glad to reconnect with that guy. We spend a lot of time writing these books together.
- [04:49]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Good to see you.
- [04:50]
Tudor Dixon
Which if you read the book you can tell that you do spend a lot of time because it's almost like a book and then a podcast, a written podcast in the book because we get to see how you two interact and it's funny. I found myself laughing out loud especially when you talked about about Paul having the unibrow and Kathie Lee's like I like to think of myself as better looking.
- [05:11]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Oh, yes. Well, what I say about that is that he was no oil painting. Yes.
- [05:19]
Tudor Dixon
But I mean, you really take us inside of these two stories and right at this moment, I feel like it's a very interesting moment on the world stage to hear about these two stories because as we're watching what's happening and in the Middle east and we're watching the, the dictator in Iran and you hear about Nero and kind of his life taking this crazy turn killing his mother. I mean, you start at a point where it is. You see him whether. Deciding whether or not to take the, the. When you see Nero in the, in the book at first you, you see him deciding whether to take the, the sheet off of his mother's dead body. It's pretty provoking.
- [06:03]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, especially if you realize as you go further into our story that it's not as if he hasn't seen her naked. He was also having an affair at one point with his mother. Right, Brian?
- [06:11]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's in the sources for sure.
- [06:14]
Kathie Lee Gifford
He didn't miss much, if you know what I'm saying. Because it's so funny because the trajectories were very, very similar. I mean, Nero guy, Grappina, you can say you're the one that knows all the details about this. But his mother was the one that orchestrated the fact that he would Caesar and all of her back backstage shenanigans are unbelievable, aren't they, Brian? Yeah, but, and, and, but, but, but they. He wanted to build a Roman Empire, an earthly of, of ego and, and, and excess and bestial stuff. Just, just nastiness. But Saul before he was Paul wanted his kind of fame and fortune too. Cause he wanted to be in the Sanhedrin. He had a zeal for God he was extremely proud of, but it was not the God that he expected to meet on the road to Damascus. Is that a good way to say it?
- [07:10]
Dr. Brian Litfin
I like it.
- [07:11]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah. He's a PhD.
- [07:12]
Dr. Brian Litfin
No, that's good. Yeah, but you know what you're talking about.
- [07:14]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Kathy Roberts University. Okay.
- [07:18]
Tudor Dixon
But I think in this, this is a moment in time where I love the way the story is presented because of exactly what you just said. Because. And it's a reminder to us. I mean, the Bible is alive. The Bible and these stories are living for a. We remember them because they impact us today. And as you kind of unpack the story of Saul becoming Paul and then his life being totally dedicated to Jesus and to getting people to follow Jesus and saving their lives, you see Nero, on the other hand, that becomes completely obsessed with self. And that's true today we have to constantly push ourselves back toward Jesus because we live in a world right now where it's very easy to get consumed with self.
- [08:08]
Kathie Lee Gifford
The me, the me world.
- [08:09]
Dr. Brian Litfin
I'm glad you're saying that too, Tudor, because it's easy, especially like you said in today's world to think, well, this is about, you know, the book is about, you know, tyrants and political leaders. But we all have a tyrant within us. Like, it's easy to put, you know, Nero into the category of someone that's like in Iran or something. But we all have that ability. And so we actually. We all need this story. We all need the gospel.
- [08:32]
Tudor Dixon
There is this time. We're at a moment in time where there's a lot of entitlement. And honestly, I didn't. This book resonates with me more having run for office and understanding what happens behind the scenes. And I think a lot of my listeners are also very politically in tune and they are watching what's happening just with all of the chess moves within your own party and the other party. You see it constantly. And I'll pick on some of the people who are out there and they're on the the world stage and they've said one thing the whole time they're in the United States, but then they go on the world stage and they say something different because they're almost like chameleons. And you can see that in what Nero is trying to do. He's trying to constantly find the next thing that's going to make him happy and lift him up and he's eliminating all of the evidence of the past. But you can see that it lives within him. That to me was the most powerful thing, is the internal struggle Nero goes through. Even though he is very evil, it's still consuming him.
- [09:38]
Kathie Lee Gifford
It didn't start out evil. No baby starts out evil. I don't believe that. It comes straight from the creator and it's what the world does and which tentacles get around you. And who do you listen to? A friend of mine today said, you know, what you worship is who you are, you know, and this man was worshiping his ego and he thought he was a great performer. I love the stories we tell about him. Trying to make people listen to him sing forever and ever. I've been accused of that theaters to himself. You could talk about what he did, Brian. I mean, he was ego. I mean, the stuff he built is different from the stuff that herod built in our first book together.
- [10:20]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Yeah, yeah, well, that's right. I mean, they're both making an impact on their world, but maybe in different ways, different arenas. I mean, Nero, much more in Rome, but the ego. Both Herod and Nero both are marked by ego. But again, aren't we all, you know, it's easy to put that off onto sort of other people. But we all need this message of redemption and hope and how to overcome self and overcome evil with the message of Yeshua.
- [10:48]
Tudor Dixon
Well, and you're. And you're constantly kind of in between the two because Saul was that also. I mean, Saul was brutal and, and kind of enjoyed the brutality that he inflicted.
- [11:03]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Yeah, but he did it, you know, I think he thought he did think he had zeal for God. So he thought he was doing God's will. But you know what Nero does too. He's just doing a different God's will, you know, and so that reminds us that there's always, as you were talking about politics before Tudor, but there's always this, there's always evil spirits. And I don't know what everybody's different beliefs are. I know what mine are, what Kathy's are, but there's always evil spirits that are lurking around the world of power. They're drawn to power. In fact, the Bible, Bible calls them the powers. And so, you know, that's something to keep aware of and remember who is the victor, who is the ultimate power.
- [11:38]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah, you said we don't fight against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities unseen. And because we can't see it physically, you know, we tend to think that, well, that's sort of made up stuff. No, I've seen demons, I've heard demons. I've encountered them more times than I like to. It's not a pleasant experience, but it certainly made me realize, no, this is real. And a friend of mine told me other day, the fine theologian, he said, you know, we're supposed to pray in the name of Jesus and the demons have to flee. Well, he said, yes. And you know what they really hate to hear? Kath and I go, what? He goes, flee in the name of Jesus who came in the flesh. And they go berserk over that because they know it's true and they can't, they have to flee. They can't stand before it. So we were aware of all of that. We had things that came along as we were trying to make these books that made things far more difficult. We just are praying people though we know what this is. This is Spiritual warfare. Let's get at it. You know, and then. Which can happen to anyone, it happens to everyone. It's just we're aware of it because we are people who study the word of God in its original form. And that's the Hebrew, I hate to call it the Old Testament and the Greek and the New. It's one story. We should have never broken it up. There's 400 years between the end of the old one and the beginning of Matthew. But there was 400 years of the Jewish people were, you know, enslaved in Egypt. We didn't stop telling the story.
- [13:11]
Dr. Brian Litfin
That's right.
- [13:12]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You know, I don't know why that's for another time. But we like to think of it as one unbelievable history lesson. And I was told years ago and one of my rabbinical trips, when you go to Rock Road and rabbi Rock is Jesus Road's the Holy Land and the Rab rabbinical teaching, they were telling me that, you know, when, when Abraham and Sarah were called of God to, to leave their home, which was modern day, it would be modern day Iraq, everybody. That's that that kills me now. We don't know that. It doesn't say so it says from the land of Ur. Right, Brian? Yes. And what the interesting is that they changed their names later. God changed their names. Why? Because he added the letter, the letter H and that means the breath of God. He breathed his breath into them and they became new creatures. Abraham and Sarah as we tend to know them. That when you study the way Ryan's true genius at all of it. I'm just a student, but I soak this stuff up because it makes the Bible which is really literally written in black and white to me the stories are too epic. I mean you're never going to learn in the Bible about Nero. The way you're going to learn about Nero from our book is that's there's no time and there's no, you know, no space.
- [14:31]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Right.
- [14:32]
Kathie Lee Gifford
But for me, when my space started getting very, very lukewarm, I started studying in Israel with, with basically messianic rabbis who know every 10 layers down deep into, into the word of God. And it did the black and white Bible that I had been studying for years. In fact I read the Bible from COVID to cover 11 times in 11 years and got so bored out of my gourd and I, and I said there's stuff in here that's not true. I don't, I can't read it anymore. It's not, A lot of it is not true. And I realized it was because it was not. It was a bad translation. It was a bad translation of what the word really, really said. And once I started learning that. And that doesn't mean I can speak Greek or speak Hebrew. I can't. But we studied the original words. And then the black and white goes to Technicolor and it goes to Dolby Sound. And you're ready to just dig into it. Cause it's so rich.
- [15:31]
Tudor Dixon
That is what I found to be the best part of this. And I know at the beginning of the book, you say some of this is what we imagine the conversations must be like, that we have to kind of infer what they must have said. But it does take you in to a life that is not unlike what we. We battle every day. And I think that what you said about Paul, Saul becoming Paul was so important that you said, you know, he was just doing what he thought a different God wanted him to do.
- [16:05]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, it was the same God. He just didn't know it. You know, he was serving Jehovah God, he thought, but so you're right. And yet he was wrong, you know,
- [16:15]
Tudor Dixon
and that's what I think we. I think that has to kind of be. And you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, but I think that has to kind of be a constant struggle for us. Because oftentimes I hear people say, well, God told me to do this, and it was clear as day. And I think that leaves some of us who don't hear God that way going, well, God doesn't talk to me. I must not know what he wants. And this book made me realize you're constantly fighting to make sure you're following what he does want. And you have to be aware that there is always going to be spirits, bad spirits, that are going to try to get to you and convince you that you are more important. I mean, it takes me right back to Eve. It's like, why shouldn't you know this stuff? And right now, there's so many things in the world that everybody's going, you
- [17:03]
Alliance Defending Freedom Announcer
deserve to know this.
- [17:05]
Tudor Dixon
And I keep saying, why I don't know that I am supposed to know that.
- [17:08]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Yeah, that's a fundamental point you're making, actually. Because the nature of sin, if you think about the temptation of Adam and Eve, the temptation is not. Well, you know, pleasure, luxury, sexuality, pride. I mean, all of those things are related. But ultimately the temptation is knowledge and the forbidden fruit. Right? You know, the apple with a bite taken out of it, which is the symbol of a major corporation today. And so, you know, that's the ultimate human temptation. And it's what Satan was tempted by because he said, I will be like the most high. I will know the things that I'm not supposed to know. And so at a core level, the temptation of mankind is to seek after that kind of arcane or occult knowledge. And it gives power and it gives wealth and it gives riches. So all of those things are related. So our story is very much about knowing the truth. You know, Paul did not know the truth as he was Saul at that time, until the truth encountered him. And Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life. And so Paul had to meet capital T truth, not an abstraction, but a person who then changed his orientation. That's everybody's story. It's time to meet the truth. If you haven't understood the truth, the capital T truth, who is a person, you don't yet understand the world and
- [18:17]
Kathie Lee Gifford
you can't be set free.
- [18:18]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Yeah.
- [18:19]
Tudor Dixon
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the Tudor Dixon Podcast.
- [18:24]
Alliance Defending Freedom Announcer
It's happening across America. Men are being allowed to compete in women's sports, robbing girls of scholarships, medals, titles and safety for the first time in history. The U.S. supreme Court heard two cases that could decide the future of women's sports nationwide. Alliance Def Freedom needs your voice today. Visit joinadf.comdixon or text DIXON to 83848 to add your name and side with truth and fairness. That's joinadf.com Dixon paid for by Alliance Defending Freedom.
- [18:59]
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- [19:30]
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- [20:31]
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- [21:01]
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- [21:33]
Tudor Dixon
what you're saying is kind of blowing my mind because I think about how many people, especially children my kids are at Christian schools. And there's the you. You see the battle between the Christian message and the message that's coming through their phones that you talked about and you hear people talk about going down this dark rabbit hole of information that is it is such a terrible temptation and the information is not necessarily right. And too often, exactly, these kids are getting pulled and even adults, I mean we're getting pulled into this too. And I tell my girls all the time when the Bible talks about gossip, it's so much bigger than you just gossiping at school. But think about how you gossiping at school affects the interpersonal relationships of all the girls that you know. And imagine that on a worldwide scale through your phone.
- [22:23]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Our words are so powerful. Scripture's very Clear about, you know, you have the choice, choose life or death with your. With your words. Then it says, choose life. You know, and every time I haven't, I've regretted it. You know, it's easy just to say, oh, did you see that? You know, it's constant. It's not like you're constantly monitoring yourself and you're thinking, God's not pleased with me now. It's just a tender reminder most of the time. Kath, you know better than that. That's not what I. That doesn't honor me.
- [22:53]
Tudor Dixon
That's spirit inside of you dwelling.
- [22:56]
Kathie Lee Gifford
That's the Holy Spirit. He doesn't condemn. Jesus did not come to condemn through the law, but to fulfill it. And, you know, and that's another reason why I wish we'd never. The problem with so much of our world is that we think the Old Testament was about the Jews. And the New Testament is for the Christians, right? It's for all of us. Some of us are born into it because of my Jewish heritage. Others are grafted. People assume that Jews. What's the word I'm looking for, Brian? They convert to Christianity. No, no, Jews don't convert. They've just received the Messiah they had not understood for all those years. Gentiles convert.
- [23:37]
Dr. Brian Litfin
I appreciate what Kathy's saying, too, about the unity of the story between the two Testaments. And it's so true. And, you know, Tudor, as you think about, like, our book, and it's landing into the world in the time when the word Israel or the Jews or something like that is connected with airplanes and battles and wars. That's not what our book is about, other than, you know, of course, Nero waged wars. But our book is about. It is about Israel, but it's about a spiritual concept. It's about the message of Israel. And as Kathy is saying at the beginning of that message and the unfolding of the story chapter by chapter, culminating with Israel's messiah, Yeshua. And then what our book is about is how this guy Saul, who was a rabbi, this is a Jewish name, and he takes a Greek name so he can relate to the rest of the world, or a Roman name, but he takes the message of Israel to the world. And we begin the book talking about the temple in Jerusalem and how the veil of that temple was torn, which usually people think, well, that means you can get into the holy of holies. It's the opposite. It's that the holy of holies is rushing out to come and be inside of you.
- [24:36]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Oh, wow.
- [24:37]
Dr. Brian Litfin
And so there's a kind of as a bursting forth of the holy presence of God, the ruach hakodesh in Hebrew. And so that the temple can now be anywhere. And Paul says, I'm going to take that message on now that I know the truth, I'm going to go to the end of the world. And we take him in the story to the end of what his world was, which was Spain, and he fulfilled it. And so that's the timeless message is that Israel's message is the message of Jesus and it is for the world.
- [25:07]
Tudor Dixon
And just the way when Kathie Lee, when you were talking about this coming out in Technicolor and Dolby sound and just the way you describe that veil also the, the number of people that had to weave it, the, the number, I, I think they did it every two years. The thickness of it, how many people had to carry it made it so different to me, you know, because I think of it as like thing that
- [25:34]
Kathie Lee Gifford
floated in the air.
- [25:35]
Dr. Brian Litfin
It wasn't wispy, it was substantive, you know, and therefore when it was torn in two, you had a major piece of fabric that was being ripped not by human hands, but by divine hands to give that holiness to the rest of the world.
- [25:48]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I'm sorry, Brian, I'm just. Because I got excited that just the other day. I love all the things they're just discovering all the time, all the time to confirm what we know is truth. And did you guys read that? They've now scientifically, absolutely proven that in AD 33 there was a massive, massive earthquake right there where Jesus was crucified. Right there that happened. The skies went dark. They have all kinds of technical ways now to prove these things. I'm also working and I'll come back and talk to you when this thing comes out. Working with a friend on the story of the Shroud, the Shroud of Turin. Well, there's absolutely scientific proof now. It was not the burial cloth of Jesus. It started out that way. It's the resurrection cloth of Jesus. Because that image could never have been made without photography. And the kind of energy that went into producing that image and the way God has protected that shroud all these two centuries or two millennia is amazing. So God is just confirming what those of us who seek have believed. And that's why I didn't like what I was reading in the Bible. I knew even as a 10 year old little girl that Jesus didn't curse that tree, the sycamore fig tree. I said, I know teacher, but that doesn't. I know, you said it, but I don't think that means that. And what kind of. Why does a 10 year old girl kind of understand that? Because I said my Jesus created that tree. He wouldn't curse something he created. Later on a rabbinical trip, I discovered that the sycamore fig tree represented. Just as the olive tree represents the people of the Jewish people, the sycamore fig tree represented the religious people. And that was the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And he was cursing them for not feeding the people that they were supposed to take care of. And he called them hypocrites. And he called them, you know, you have your, your whitewashed tombs, but inside your dead man's bones. Well, the word for hypocrite in Greek, I love this. Actors.
- [27:51]
Dr. Brian Litfin
You're actors to stand under a mask.
- [27:55]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah, that's. I mean, yes, yes, you are. You're pretending to be someone you're not.
- [28:00]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Well, Kathy, that's a good point. And you know, speaking of trees being cursed, the scripture says cursed is he who hangs on a tree. So when the one who was cursed in our place is Jesus, and there's a tree at the beginning in the Garden of Eden, there's a tree in the end in the book of Revelation, and there's a tree right in the middle. And that is the one on which our Messiah hung. But he didn't stay there, as you pointed out, so. So he took the curse for us and we can praise him for that.
- [28:25]
Tudor Dixon
How did you come to the point where you said you wanted to. You have another. You, you wrote a book before this. This was Herod and Mary. Was that okay? So you have. And that leads into Nero and Paul. How did you come to this point? Because, Kathy, you were saying that life really changed when you went there. Explain that to me, because I want our listeners to really understand what it is to walk within those footsteps of Jesus.
- [28:55]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, not everybody, especially now. Nobody's. You don't want to go to the Holy Land right now. Things have got to calm down. And they will. And there will be another time where our Rock Road and Rabbi tours can start going again. I gave that name to Rabbi Sobel so he could start the touring business with it. And I suggest you go with somebody that actually knows the scriptures before a lot of these pastors think they do. But if your pastor thinks that Jesus was a carpenter, you know, he hasn't read the scriptures we read in the Greek and the Hebrew. The word for what Jesus and Joseph did in the New Testament, which I hate to say, but it is in Greek and it's. The word is Tecton. And if you look it up and anybody can on their ask Siri, you know, what's the original Greek? It says architect, builder. But there was no buildable wood in 1st century A.D. back then, Herod didn't build the temple with wood. He accentuated it with some wood, but there was no buildable wood. It all had to come down from the cedars of Lebanon along the Via Maris, which is the west. It's the beautiful, beautiful coast of Israel and made into rafts and then taken apart in what's modern day Tel Aviv, basically. Right, Brian. And then taken overland by animals and slaves, tons and tons of slaves. I mean, Herod moved a mountain to be higher than another mountain just so he could be buried on the mountain that was higher. These are the kind of egos we deal with. You don't learn that unless you go to Herodium, which was his temple in his palace in Bethlehem. And you learn that stuff when you go there. But you can look at my videos that I did with the. Or you can read our books and we'll take you there. You don't have to get on a plane. You don't need a passport.
- [30:42]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Yeah.
- [30:43]
Kathie Lee Gifford
You know, just, just down. In fact, I wish a lot of people. And they're doing it more and more. I did all the. And I always do for all my books, not just the two that I've written with, with Brian, but I do the audio versions of them because I don't want somebody else speaking our words or my words, you know, And I'm so familiar. Although these ones, these two books took me four days each because they're so dense stories. Yeah. And. And I want to make sure I'm saying the names properly and the places properly and all of that. So we, we really tried to be very scholarly about this. In the places that, as you mentioned, we had to use a little imagination. We. We footnote it, basically. We let them know, you know, we know what. What. Brian's the scholar, I am not. But we were really careful about that because we don't want to be guilty of telling something that we don't believe is true. And it's all in the realm of possibility, of course, but I know you could probably explain the way you dealt with it.
- [31:42]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Well, you said it well. You said it well. And Kathy keeps calling me a scholar, but then you listen to her talk and she knows what she's talking about, doesn't she? Well, she does, and she's Being humble. But she's learned a lot over the years. I think you are. But anyway, I mean, the point is, she's exactly right. The readers of this book, you might not ever get a chance. I hope you do get to go to Israel or in the case of Paul, Greece, or even Rome. Go to Rome, which is where it culminates. And so until the day comes that you can walk in the footsteps of these great heroes, Our books are meant to be very vivid, very storylike, very cinematic, and, you know, we have to imagine some things, but we have texts and sources behind those things. So in the meantime to our readers, we invoke you to be swept up, not into a bunch of dry facts and dates or something like that, but to be swept up into a double saga where you have this ridiculous antagonist, Nero, and all the people swirling around him that were like that as well. And then you had this protagonist who's flawed and who always says, you know, I was the chief of sinners. And yet he's got this redemptive arc. And of course, at the end, the two of them crashed together in this, you know, the end of their story as Paul finally gets to Rome. So it really. It really reads in a story like way. We want it to come across that way.
- [33:01]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Way.
- [33:01]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah. In almost a Hollywood like way, where you're. You're going, this story cannot possibly be. But it also makes you realize this is how Hollywood came to be, was. The stories of the past were so vivid and so unrealistic, and yet this happened. And it's. It's interesting because as you read through, there's this desire for. For Paul to rub off on Nero. You know, there is this human desire to go get it, finally get it and redeem yourself. You know, redemption is something that I think is always lingering in our hearts and the need for redemption, and I think that's that spirit that's constantly calling us back and saying, be wary of the idols. Be wary of that sinful nature that's pulling you.
- [33:50]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Test them. Yeah.
- [33:53]
Tudor Dixon
And yet. Yet you know that there are people who never are. You know, Nero never. He never turned. He never was redeemed. He never turned toward good. And how do you. How do you prepare yourself to stop those people from being in your life, to stop that influence, which I think is very evil. Easy to have that influence in your life right now because people can get to you. Evil forces can get to you so much easier today than any other time.
- [34:23]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah. But people ask us all, and I'm sure you too, Tudor, you Know, do you think there's more evil in the world? I'm asked that every day. So is Brian. So it may seem that way because, you know, people have phones and they collect, accessible, we would never see. And then there's 24 hour, of course, channels where, you know, you see images you wish you never did and you can't get rid of them. You know they're there. But I say no, it seems like it, but the truth is evil is in the story, in the scripture, starts in Genesis, in the garden. And whether you believe that metaphorically or literally, it doesn't change the story for me. It's fascinating cinematically, of course, but the point of what I'm trying to make is that even as God is walking in the coolness of the evening with the Adam and Eve, the serpent is in the garden.
- [35:15]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Garden.
- [35:16]
Kathie Lee Gifford
So why should we? You know, he was always there, always there, always there. And so. But the, the subtitle of our book is Living Hope. Ancient Evil, which has always been with us, juxtaposed against living hope. And if you've read our book, Herod and Mary and I, I hope you have, if you haven't, you will also find it fascinating. It ends with basically Herod's death as Mary and the baby Jesus are returning back from Egypt because the one who sought to kill them is dead. And the end of that book, I was doing the audio version. It took me an hour to get through it. I would sob every time I had to read the end of the book. You have to read it. I don't call in Gwyneth Paltrow to do it, because I can't do it. And. But even when you listen to the audio, you hear me just. I can't. You know what I'm talking about, Brian, I don't want to give the, the end of the book away, but we needed a way to express why the. The guy who called himself the other king of the Jews, who wasn't even a Jew, and Mary who had just given birth to the king of Kings. Yeah, you know, it's just profoundly moving to me. Even right now I'm remembering it. I had my book, my hip replace. The next day. I just stumbled into that. The next. I'm done, I'm done.
- [36:48]
Dr. Brian Litfin
I'm glad you brought those things up because, you know, as we talk about great evil and we're talking about demonic powers and evil spirits and kind of the, the tyrants of the world, whether they're in the first century or today, it's important to recognize that the story is one of hope. And you say, well, you know, like a Nero, like Tudor. You said he never, he never converted. That's true. We have no evidence he commits suicide and he's pitiful. But as Paul came and made his way to Rome, the seeds of the gospel fell under the soil. That was good. So Paul getting there. Yeah, okay. He didn't convert Nero as far as we could ever tell, but many others did. In fact, the scripture says that there are some in the emperor's household who are believers, which would be Nero's household. So the gospel goes forth, right?
- [37:31]
Tudor Dixon
Yes, I found that fascinating.
- [37:33]
Dr. Brian Litfin
There's a triumph to it all. And sometimes that triumph is secret or hidden. But God's up to something, something even in the in the lives of your listeners.
- [37:41]
Tudor Dixon
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the Tudor Dixon Podcast.
- [37:47]
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- [39:54]
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- [41:26]
Tudor Dixon
I think the story of grace is so important in this book because that is where we get caught up in saying we can never be redeemed. We can never be good enough. Is that we can't. We don't understand grace. We don't understand his love. And so often when I'm frustrated with myself I say what would I do if my kids had made a mistake? They will absolutely hug them and love them and I would just. It would not matter. I will always love them. How much more does God love me than that? How much more grace does he have for me? And that to me was where Paul was.
- [42:03]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah, right.
- [42:05]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Well he was aware of his sins and so his gospel wasn't some abstraction as he preached Grace. And he's the apostle of grace. He knew first and foremost I have received grace. And then he, he passed on that message and praise God for his grace. We all need it.
- [42:20]
Tudor Dixon
So I want people. I want people right now as we go into, not only are we going into the Easter season, but in the world we're going into a very challenging season when it comes to politics. And politics is, I would say, to your point of evil has always been there. Politics is, is there, but in abundance now. And I see younger and younger people getting affected by the stresses of politics and by the false teachings. And now we see false prophets and false teachers getting into mixing that. I want to be a political leader, but I'm also going to bring a false gospel to you. And we're seeing that out of Texas right now where we have a candidate who is saying God is a woman and God is non binary. And the story of Mary is the story of why God approves of abortion and all these crazy things. And that to me is like, this is a time to get deep into a book like this where you can really feel those times and see God's grace, but also God's lessons and how true his word is and what is the word of the false teachers and how to, to determine which is which and help your children determine which is which and follow the path of the Lord.
- [43:37]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Well, that's one of the reasons I keep writing all of these kinds of books and making my movies too, the way I shot a lot of it in Israel. And it's just important that we understand where we came from and how we got here now. And I, as a woman who had a Jewish father who was an immigrant from Russia, he escaped the pogroms. My mother's father was also an immigrant. There's a lot of talk about that. I don't get involved politically, but I just. I don't even know what I was going to say. Did you know, Brian, I've probably done 100 interviews in the last.
- [44:13]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Well, whatever it is going to be about Yeshua and the goodness of his message, for sure.
- [44:19]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I was going to say is that so many of us who are believers and we sincerely try to follow Yeshua or if you call him Christ, same, same person, same person, but one is Hebrew and one is, is from the apostolic period after Jesus was resurrected and ascended. And you know, people were not called Christians when Jesus was on the earth. They were called followers of the Way. And then of course, we know what happened. Jesus went away. And then it became the new period. And then it was called the Apostolic way because it was. It was different. They weren't disciples anymore. In the same way, they were taken. They were to take it. What's it called, meaning Greek, to take away, to go forth with, to be Apostle.
- [45:03]
Dr. Brian Litfin
The word apostle means sent out. Yeah.
- [45:05]
Kathie Lee Gifford
He was sent.
- [45:06]
Dr. Brian Litfin
They were the eyewitnesses.
- [45:08]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah. So I just wish people would understand where we came from. A Jewish perspective. It's important. Jesus was a rabbi. He kept every one of the festivals. And all the main things that happened in Jesus's life tutor happened during the festivals that we read about. Lots of them. And 90% of what Jesus talks about was from Galilee. But he went to the festivals. And we say Easter in our culture. But it was not Easter Sunday that Jesus was resurrected. It was first fruits. It's called first fruits in the Jewish faith. Tell them what first fruits is.
- [45:45]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Well, first fruits. And Jesus is called the first fruits of the resurrection. But it basically means that the Israelites would bring in when they got a harvest, they would offer the beginnings of the harvest because they said, lord, we know you're going to bring much more. So when Jesus is resurrected, he's the first fruits of a harvest to come. There's going to be so many more resurrections, directions and life. If he's the life, much more life is going to be harvested in the wake of. Of that one. So it has a reference to that.
- [46:14]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I just love learning about that. We know, we know about Passover, he's crucified on Passover. But think about Easter, because that's really. Is it a pagan term? It's just not Hebrew.
- [46:24]
Dr. Brian Litfin
The word Easter is like from Ishtar, I think, which was a goddess or something.
- [46:28]
Kathie Lee Gifford
But see, that's where those things.
- [46:29]
Dr. Brian Litfin
And the east. So it's related to that, that like, like resurrection and the east, the sun. Well, it's, it's just. It's the word everybody uses. And so I guess we have to embrace it on that level. But as you're pointing out, there are roots behind it.
- [46:42]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah, I mean, there's so much. There is so much to learn. And I love that you wrote the book. I like I said I love the way the book is written. For those of you who haven't read it, you read a chapter, you're taken in, it's like. It is like you're watching a movie. You're taken right to that time. And then we get this commentary from the two of you the end, which, as you can see if you're listen you know that it's beautiful. It is amazing, and it is really thoughtful, but it's also very natural. So I love the way the book is written. I encourage people to go out and get it. It is Nero and Paul, how the Gospel of Grace Defeated the Ruler of Rome. So tell everybody. It's just everywhere. Right. All the bookstores.
- [47:23]
Kathie Lee Gifford
It's available March 10th. It says you can pre order it right now. That and the audio and. Yeah. And I think. I think it'll take you on a journey. We learned from our first book, Herod and Mary, that we did the coda at the. The coda is a really. A musical term to repeat to go back and to. And discuss. But I think this way works better because we. You're right. The chapters are very specific. And then we talk in our codas about how we can apply it to today.
- [47:51]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Yeah.
- [47:52]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And what. What can we learn from this? That. That I can literally take away from that and apply it to my own life, because otherwise it's just entertainment.
- [47:59]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Yeah.
- [47:59]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And we want to entertain with our book. We really do. I've been an entertainer all my life, and I don't know any other way to even think. Think, except for in rhyme and lyrics. And cinematically, that's who I am. He comes more from the academic world. So it's a good combination of the two. Yes.
- [48:15]
Tudor Dixon
That's why it's such a good mix. Honestly, that's what I was thinking. My daughter is always saying, I want a better study Bible. That kind of explains things to me. And this is. This is. Like you said, this takes some stories from the Bible and it just kind of blows them up and goes in deeper. But that at the end, that study part of it takes you to today, which I think is so beautiful.
- [48:35]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I think it was Cody's idea.
- [48:37]
Dr. Brian Litfin
Cody? Yeah. Your son Cody. Oh, he's a great dude. Oh, yeah. Cody's. Cody's got his thumbprints all over this book, too. He's such a good dude. Yeah, he's a keeper. Yeah, that's good. I love that guy.
- [48:46]
Kathie Lee Gifford
I like his wife so much better than him. I said, I love Erica. She's so much nicer to me than you are. I married her.
- [48:55]
Dr. Brian Litfin
We all do that.
- [48:56]
Tudor Dixon
But even. Even the way you explain, I'll say this, and I know we've gone a little over, but you're so fascinating to talk to. I will say even the way. And I could see your connection to Mary, and I understand why you're saying the last book was hard for you to read. Because even the way you described Mary watching Jesus crucified and saying, My son's 35. What would I do as a mom? And that I would put myself in that place. And I think the same. I was thinking, as you were taking me through that in the book, I was thinking, yes, yes, as a mom, you would do anything. And. And we have to remember that what we know, she didn't know. She didn't have that foresight of what was next. You know, she didn't know that she
- [49:40]
Kathie Lee Gifford
knew she had enough people telling her, this will be right.
- [49:44]
Tudor Dixon
But that human side of her is he's still getting pulled away. He's not with her every day.
- [49:51]
Kathie Lee Gifford
And yet she's at the cross, but
- [49:52]
Dr. Brian Litfin
she's also at the tomb and upper room. When the Holy Spirit descends, she's there, too.
- [49:59]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Yeah. And that is Pentecost. That's all always been. It's a Greek word, but it's something that the Jews celebrate. That's 50 days after Passover. Right, Right.
- [50:09]
Dr. Brian Litfin
And this is the kind of thing that we wanted those. Those codas to do, which is like. Like you're doing Tudor, we think I have to think about this from my own life. And if it's just a book about coda, the first century or people from long ago doesn't have that. But so many people love Kathy's voice. They heard it in their ears for, you know, every day for so many years, all those listeners, and now a new generation that's getting to know her. And so we wanted. We wanted to talk. So you get a little window at the end of each chapter into what we're thinking and how it might apply and jokes and insights, and we share back and forth. And so like you said, it's like a little miniature podcast at the end of each chapter.
- [50:47]
Tudor Dixon
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I loved it. I encourage everybody to go out and get it again. It's Nero and Paul, how the Gospel of Grace Defeated the Ruler of Rome. And it is Kathie Lee Gifford and Dr. Brian Litvin. Thank you so much for sharing today. It was amazing talking to you both.
- [51:03]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Thanks for having us. God bless. Shalom, everybody.
- [51:07]
Tudor Dixon
God bless you. Yes. And thank you all for listening to the podcast. God bless you. Get the book. Go out and make sure you tune into the next podcast. We love having you all listening, and thank you so much for joining me today. We loved having you here.
- [51:22]
Alliance Defending Freedom Announcer
It's happening across America. Men are being allowed to compete in women's sports, robbing girls of scholarships, medals, titles, and safety for the first time. In history. The U.S. supreme Court heard two cases that could decide the future of women's sports nation nationwide. Alliance Defending Freedom needs your voice today. Visit joinadf.comdixon or text DIXON to 83848 to add your name and side with truth and fairness. That's joinadf.com Dixon paid for by Alliance Defending Freedom.
- [51:57]
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No one knows what the future holds, but you deserve a weather app that can help. Weatherbug is easy to use and provides forecasts for your everyday you need from storm warnings to pollen levels right at your fingertips. Get the fastest local Alerts and comprehensive 10 day forecasts wherever you are. Its hyper local real time customizable alerts. Make sure the weather never takes you by surprise so you can plan every day with confidence. Download the free Weatherbug app from the App Store today and start getting accurate weather forecasts. 24.
- [52:25]
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Flag Football is exploding and iflag is leading the way as the Guinness World Record Holder. If iflag hosts premier flag football tournaments nationwide for boys, girls, high school girls and adults. From first time players to elite competitors, iflag delivers top level competition, unforgettable experiences and a community built around the game. Ready to be part of it? Join the movement, find your tournament and learn more@iflag.org that's iflag.org hey it's Bobby Bones. You know Eddie and I recently stopped by yeah in National Nashville. It's an incredible non profit empowering kids through music education. Thanks to Hyundai, we recorded a special podcast episode while we were there.
- [53:40]
Dr. Brian Litfin
How do you think learning an instrument helps kids with confidence?
- [53:44]
Kathie Lee Gifford
Learning an instrument allows them to discover
- [53:48]
Tudor Dixon
a little bit further of who they
- [53:49]
Kathie Lee Gifford
are and be comfortable with it and then share a little bit about that with others. And if it's done in an environment that is celebrating and championing the them,
- [53:58]
Tudor Dixon
then that confidence can only go up.
- [54:01]
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The full episode is out now presented by the Hyundai Ionic 9. To donate and learn more about Y's mission, just visit Yarocs.org.