The Tudor Dixon Podcast: Uncovering Waste, Fraud, & Abuse with EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin

Summary

Podcast Title: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Episode: The Tudor Dixon Podcast: Uncovering Waste, Fraud, & Abuse with EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin
Release Date: February 26, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The Tudor Dixon Podcast, host Tudor Dixon engages in a candid and in-depth conversation with Lee Zeldin, the Administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The discussion centers around the aggressive efforts to root out waste, fraud, and abuse within the EPA, highlighting significant mismanagement and the reforms Zeldin is spearheading to ensure taxpayer dollars are utilized effectively.

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Lee Zeldin’s Initial Actions as EPA Administrator

Focus on Flint Water Crisis

Zeldin begins by discussing his prompt response to the Flint water crisis, emphasizing the progress made in improving infrastructure and restoring water quality. He states:

"This is a moment for celebration. This is a moment of great progress and the water quality is amazing right now."
(03:03)

He underscores the federal EPA's continued long-term engagement in Flint, dispelling fears that the administration would neglect "blue areas."

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Addressing Waste, Fraud, and Abuse in EPA Funding

Uncovering Financial Mismanagement

Dixon steers the conversation toward the rampant waste within the EPA, particularly focusing on mishandled funds and questionable grant allocations. Zeldin provides a detailed account of financial irregularities, including the discovery of $20 billion parked at a bank outside of government due to restrictive financial agreements:

"We found $20 billion parked at a bank just outside of government... there was a financial agent agreement with treasury that was tying EPA's hands behind its back."
(04:51)

He reveals that these funds were part of last-minute efforts to divert billions before Inauguration Day, highlighting systemic issues within the agency:

"There was an account control agreement with EPA where EPA was voluntarily tying its hands behind its back."
(04:51)

Case Study: Stacey Abrams' NGO

Zeldin exposes the dubious allocation of $2 billion to Stacey Abrams' newly formed NGO, which previously received only $100 in 2023. He criticizes the unrealistic grant agreement requirements:

"On page seven, it gives them 90 days to complete a training called how to develop a budget. If you need to complete training on how to develop a budget, you should be completing that training before you're spending the first dollar."
(07:35)

Dixon echoes these concerns, questioning the rationale behind entrusting such a massive sum to an inexperienced organization:

"Stacey Abrams was then given her organization was given $2 billion to spend in 21 days. 2 billion to spend in 21 days... Clearly not experienced in spending tens of thousands of dollars, billions of dollars."
(08:14)

Climate Justice Alliance and Other Misallocations

The conversation further delves into the allocation of $50 million to the Climate Justice Alliance, which advocates linking climate justice with geopolitical issues like a "free Palestine." Zeldin argues that funds intended for environmental remediation are being diverted to politically charged agendas:

"Instead of spending the dollar on actually remediating the environmental issue in that community, we are instead sending tens of millions of dollars to some group that says that climate justice goes through a free Palestine."
(09:07)

He also cites the failure of the Clean School Bus program, where a Canadian EV school bus company received $160 million upfront but subsequently declared bankruptcy without delivering $95 million worth of buses:

"They received some partial payments along the way, then, okay, we can negotiate. But the idea of giving $160 million upfront, what happens if they declare bankruptcy and they still haven't delivered."
(10:40)

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Reforms and Future Strategies

Implementing Accountability Measures

Zeldin outlines the reforms being implemented to prevent future financial mismanagement. He specifically mentions halting the practice of distributing grant funds upfront without performance-based ties:

"We're not going to be providing these grant funds upfront. That's one of the reforms that we have."
(20:32)

He emphasizes the importance of performance-based funding and stricter oversight to ensure that grants are used appropriately and effectively:

"It's important. That is directly tied to performance and also the way that these funds are overseen."
(15:36)

Eliminating Pass-Through Funding

Zeldin criticizes the existing pass-through funding mechanism, where large sums are funneled through a few primary recipients without sufficient oversight, allowing for potential misuse and conflicts of interest:

"Money going outside the government and going through pass-throughs to go through other pass-throughs to eventually get to a grantee. And in this case, once the money went through those eight primary recipients, EPA wasn't even a party to the account control agreement."
(15:36)

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Impact on the American Public

Safeguarding Taxpayer Dollars

Dixon highlights the significance of Zeldin's efforts in protecting taxpayer dollars from misallocation, emphasizing the public's growing concern over governmental waste:

"Politicians are acting like this is play money, but this is our money."
(21:09)

Zeldin reassures listeners that the new measures will ensure more accountability and that the EPA will prioritize stewarding funds responsibly:

"I'm someone who believes that when money is given out, it should be tied to performance."
(10:40)

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a reaffirmation of the commitment to financial accountability within the EPA. Zeldin and Dixon express mutual appreciation for the dedication to safeguarding public funds and ensuring that environmental initiatives are both effective and free from political bias.

"This practice ends now. This is a new day. We're not going to be providing these grant funds upfront."
(20:32)

Zeldin concludes with a promise to maintain strict oversight and reform practices to prevent future abuse, ensuring that the EPA fulfills its mission of protecting the environment efficiently and responsibly.

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Takeaways

• Immediate Reforms: The EPA is implementing significant changes to prevent waste, fraud, and abuse, particularly in grant allocations.
• Accountability: Emphasis on performance-based funding and eliminating upfront payments to ensure funds are used as intended.
• Oversight Enhancement: Strengthening financial controls and oversight mechanisms to safeguard taxpayer dollars.
• Public Assurance: Commitment to transparency and responsible management to regain public trust and effectively address environmental issues.

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Notable Quotes:

• "This is a moment for celebration. This is a moment of great progress and the water quality is amazing right now."
  — Lee Zeldin (03:03)

• "We found $20 billion parked at a bank just outside of government... there was a financial agent agreement with treasury that was tying EPA's hands behind its back."
  — Lee Zeldin (04:51)

• "Stacey Abrams was then given her organization was given $2 billion to spend in 21 days... clearly not experienced in spending tens of thousands of dollars, billions of dollars."
  — Tudor Dixon (08:14)

• "Instead of spending the dollar on actually remediating the environmental issue in that community, we are instead sending tens of millions of dollars to some group that says that climate justice goes through a free Palestine."
  — Lee Zeldin (09:07)

• "We're not going to be providing these grant funds upfront. That's one of the reforms that we have."
  — Lee Zeldin (20:32)

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the critical points discussed in the episode, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the challenges within the EPA and the proactive measures being taken to address them.

Transcript

[Tudor Dixon]

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[Tudor Dixon]

Welcome to the Tudor Dixon Podcast. Today we have with us the administrator of the U.S. environmental Protection Agency, also known as the EPA, Secretary Lee Zeldin. Secretary, welcome to the podcast.

[Lee Zeldin]

It's great to be back with you, Tudor.

[Tudor Dixon]

I know where I'm so excited because this is like a totally new role for you. We had you on here before now and I've worked with you throughout the campaign. I saw you out there every day and I feel like every time I saw you, if I was on a zoom with you, you were in the car so you definitely, you definitely earned this post. I just want you to know, because we saw how hardworking you were when you were campaigning, but also just what you've done since you. It's. This entire administration just went off running. As soon as they got their post, they went out running and you came to Michigan. So tell us a little bit about what that was like because I think most people know the story of Flint and the water crisis here. And I think it's meaningful to the folks here in the state that you came here first.

[Lee Zeldin]

I wanted to get to Flint as soon as possible. And last Thursday I was in Flint and Ann Arbor. In Flint, they've been operating under an emergency order now for about a decade or so. And so much has been done to improve infrastruct to respond to this crisis. And it's just so amazing to see how much progress has been made that all of America was watching. And the residents of Flint went through a lot to get to this moment. And this isn't a point in time where we should be nervous about the future as if levels of government are going to disengage. It's clear that that engagement is going to be staying for a very long time. The federal EPA is going to be engaged in Flint for a very long time. This moment is a moment for celebration. This is a moment of great progress and the water quality is amazing right now.

[Tudor Dixon]

It is a time for celebration. Also. I think it is meaningful to the folks there because that's not typically a city that goes red. It doesn't go for the Republican. And I think there was some concern across the country that once the, the president got into office that he would say we're going to ignore the blue areas. And this being one of the first places that you visited, I'm just going to reiterate, very meaningful. And we here in the state of Michigan are, are very appreciative that you came out here. But I want to get into some of the other things that you're doing because you're kind of on the, on the front line of doge and what you're cutting out because there has been a massive amount of waste that's gone through the epa and I think it's kind of easy to get it through the EPA because it's that feel good place where, oh, we're doing this for the environment. We're taking, we're very green. So tell us a little bit about what you found.

[Lee Zeldin]

Well, EPA has a very important mission and we have a lot of amazing people who work here, who want to ensure that there are, that there's clean air, land and water for Americans all across the country. And, and we don't discriminate, as you just pointed out with your question about Flint. Doesn't matter whether you're from a red state, a blue state, a purple state. We're right now in Los Angeles with the agency's largest wildfire response ever. We're in East Palestine, Ohio, western North Carolina. We just got a mission assignment in Kentucky. What is important is that we do it as efficiently and effectively as possible. And when I was going through the Senate confirmation process, there was a video that came out of somebody who was working as a political appointee here at the EPA talking about how they were throwing gold bars off the Titanic trying to get billions of dollars out the door prior to Inauguration Day. So these senators were asking me, if you're confirmed, are you going to make it a top priority to get answers as to what he's talking about? I said absolutely. And as soon as I was confirmed working with my team, we set out to find where the gold bars were that he was talking about. And we found $20 billion parked at a, a bank just outside of government. The issue was that of the second half of 2024 is that they had tens of billions of dollars here at the EPA and they didn't even have the ability to get it out, but they wanted to get it out before inauguration, so they put it at the bank. There was a financial agent agreement with treasury that was tying EPA's hands behind its back. There was an account control agreement with EPA where EPA was voluntary, voluntarily tying its hands behind its back and a lot of self dealing and conflicts of interest. There's a story that just came out earlier today where somebody who was involved in the council involved, responsible for putting this whole package together, sends $20 million to her employer. There was somebody who is the director of the Greenhouse Gas Reduction fund who gave $5 billion to his former employer where he left to enter the Biden administration. Stacey Abrams's NGO received $2 billion. It's a brand new NGO. They had only received $100 in 2023 and in 2024 they got 2 billion. So when you read the grant agreement to Stacey Abrams's ngo On page one, it gives them 21 days to distribute $2 billion, which is not the craziest part. On page seven, it gives them 90 days to complete a training called how to develop a budget. Now, if you need to complete training on how to develop a budget, you should be completing that training before you're spending the first dollar. And you certainly shouldn't be handed $2 billion up front and given three weeks to distribute it. This is just the tip of the iceberg. We're just scratching the surface here in this, in this conversation. I have ensured, with our efforts even far beyond this, that we've been able to save not just tens of millions, but more with certain grants that are not going to go out the door, that do not fulfill statutory obligations, that do not fulfill the mission, the core mission. And it's important for us to be good stewards of the tax dollars. That was my pledge to Congress. That's my pledge to the American public.

[Tudor Dixon]

Well, so let me be clear. I want to reiterate what you just said, because here are friends of Biden and that that needs to be made very clear. These are friends of Biden. This is a failed gubernatorial candidate in Georgia, Stacey Abrams. Failed candidate, but invited to DGA events as a governor. She was invited to all of the gubernatorial events like she was actually the governor. Stacey Abrams was then given. Her organization was given $2 billion to spend in 21 days. 2 billion to spend in 21 days. This is a new organization only ever received $100 into the org. Clearly not experienced in spending tens of thousands of dollars, billions of dollars, let alone $2 billion. How much of our taxpayer money has been thrown to the friends of the Democrats?

[Lee Zeldin]

Well, you're talking about the 21, the $20 billion that that were sent to this bank outside of government. That's not the only expenditure. There's also money that EPA was responsible for pushing out that I don't believe should have gone out. There was $50 million, for example, sent to the Climate Justice Alliance. Climate justice alliance says that climate justice goes through Gaza. It goes through a free Palestine. There are people who say who they advocate for the term environmental justice, talking about how there are communities that have been left behind where there are issues that need to be dealt with. I agree that there are communities in America that have been left behind that have important environmental issues that have to be dealt with. But the problem is when in the name of environmental justice, instead of spending the dollar on actually remediating the environmental issue in that community, we are instead sending tens of millions of dollars to some group that says that climate justice goes through a free Palestine. I think Americans would want that $50 million to be spent, if it's going to be spent in the name of environmental should be spent remediating issues in these communities that have actually been left behind.

[Tudor Dixon]

But that's what I mean about waste, fraud, and abuse. When you look at your organization, I mean, when you look at your agency, you have the Environmental Protection Agency sending money through Gaza under the guise of environmental justice. But it looks a lot like money laundering.

[Lee Zeldin]

Yeah. So in the case of Climate justice alliance, this is an entity here in the US but advocating that the path to climate justice goes through a free Palestine. The money that went out to the $20 billion that we're just talking about, I believe that the funds should be returned to government that EPA needs to reestablish oversight over this. I'll give you one other example. The Clean School bus program gave $160 million to a Canadian EV school bus company. They then declared bankruptcy, and. And they still haven't delivered $95 million worth of school buses to 55 school districts. The money was given up front. The $20 billion that, that we were just talking about. That money was all given out upfront. I'm someone who believes that when money is given out, it should be tied to performance. That, that the school bus company makes a school bus and then you pay them for the school bus. And if you know something with a negotiation, they received some partial payments along the way, then, okay, we can negotiate. But the idea of giving $160 million upfront, what happens if they declare bankruptcy and they still haven't delivered $95 million worth of school buses to 55 districts, which is exactly what happened in this case.

[Tudor Dixon]

But how did they declare bankruptcy with that money? That money was there to ensure that wouldn't have happened. So that's completely ridiculous. And I hear what you're saying, but I got to tell you, we owned a steel foundry, and nobody ever said to me, you know what, I'm going to pay you up front for the job, and I hope the castings arrive. I don't know that many people in manufacturing that get paid ahead of time. In fact, oftentimes you have long payment terms with people like, I mean, oftentimes we didn't get paid for 75 days after we shipped a product. You've got to be kidding me. That the government is paying in advance. And I don't believe the government is paying American companies like that in advance. And I will just say that we had a similar situation in Ann Arbor where we bought. We spent millions on a bunch of school buses. And guess what? Those school buses didn't run come wintertime in Michigan. And it was a disaster for the district. Kids couldn't get Places they had to go back to the gas powered buses. I mean this is all, it's all total farce.

[Lee Zeldin]

Yeah, and your, your point is absolutely right. And I'm stating the same exact thing. And in the case of using this Canadian Electric Vehicle school Bus company as an example, that is why we don't give out money. We should not be giving out money up front. It's important. That is directly tied to performance and also the way that these funds are overseen. If the government is saying that the government of the United States is not able to distribute tens of billions of dollars, what kind of logic arrives at the conclusion that Stacey Abrams organization would distribute that $2 billion better than the government can? And the money. And listen, it was their words, not mine. They were referring it to tossing gold bars off the Titanic. And in that video they were also saying that they were distributing the money with an eye towards getting themselves jobs at the recipient NGOs. And what we're finding is a lot of self dealing and conflicts of interest where in fact money went to entities where the people who were involved in the process of getting the money funded and distributed were benefiting from it as well. I have a big problem with that practice. That should not be allowed. And lastly, I have a problem with the concept of money going, you know, outside the government and going through pass throughs to go through other pass throughs to eventually get to a grantee. And in this case, once the money went through, so there's only eight primary recipients received $20 billion. The account control agreement with EPA was only with those eight primary recipients. Once the money passed through those eight primary recipients, EPA wasn't even a party to the account control agreement. And I'll give you one more, one more point. And I know it sounds like we're getting a little bit in the weeds with some of the terms I'm using. There was something in the account control agreement called a notice of exclusive control. If I send to Citibank a notice of exclusive control, so EPA would reestablish control over the funds, it actually triggers new rights, new powers on the part of the grantee where they then can tell the bank, I want you to send my money to this other bank. So it's not that I do a notice of exclusive control and the money is returning to the United States government and the taxpayers. It's not even that states at Citibank, the grantees have a new power to move their money somewhere else. And this is all done by design. It's crazy.

[Tudor Dixon]

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[Tudor Dixon]

It blows my mind. I know we're at the end of our time together, but I just want to say I want to go back for a second to those payment terms. Paying in advance. I mean, essentially this must be going on across the entire agency because you just told us that the Stacey Abrams organization got $2 billion and they were told spend it in 21 days. You can't even build a relationship. 21 days. And we never had. We 30 day terms were really good for us at our factory. If we got paid 30 days after we shipped stand pretty standard was 60 days, 21 days, they had to spend it all. That means they put everything, all their cards out before they even knew who they were dealing with or something else very nefarious was going on.

[Lee Zeldin]

Right? And that practice ends now. This is a new day. We're not going to be providing these grant funds up. That's one of the reforms that we have. We're talking about the clean School Bus program. That was a $5 billion program. $4 billion of it's already been distributed, but a billion of it hasn't been. And we're not going to distribute these funds in a way that is fronting all the money to these organizations. And that's just one example. It's like this across the board and it's important practice beyond the time after we're gone or today or the next day in some other agency.

[Tudor Dixon]

Absolutely everyone should be happy to hear that there are people that are actually looking at how the taxpayer dollars are being spent. I've said for a few weeks now, as I've been looking at everything that's coming out with Doge and, and how we're even spending in the state of Michigan, man, politicians are acting like this is play money, but this is our money. So we appreciate the fact that you're taking it seriously and you're going to make sure you're safeguarding where our funds are going and hopefully, hopefully fewer of our funds are going to go out and the American people get to keep more.

[Lee Zeldin]

Amen.

[Tudor Dixon]

Thank you so much, Secretary Lee Zeldin. We appreciate having you on today.

[Lee Zeldin]

Thank you, Tutor.

[Tudor Dixon]

Absolutely. And thank you all for joining us on the Tutor Dixon podcast. For this podcast and others, go to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and join us next time. Have a blessed day. Hey everyone, it's Tutor Dixon here. Masculinity is back and men are already doubling, tripling and quadrupling their testosterone thanks to Maximus. MaximusTribe.com's testosterone solutions are clinically proven to at at least double your testosterone, which leads to more energy for your family at work, the gym and for the bedroom. Visit maximus tribe.com today to get started. Results may vary and outcomes aren't guaranteed. Claims have not been reviewed by the fda and Maximus does not claim to treat or prevent disease. Maximus Tribe.com the Philadelphia Eagles are Super bowl champions.

[Lee Zeldin]

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