Tudor Dixon Podcast: Inside the CIA's Counterterrorism Strategy with Michael Ellis

Summary

Summary of "The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show" Episode: "Tudor Dixon Podcast: Inside the CIA's Counterterrorism Strategy with Michael Ellis"

Release Date: May 12, 2025

In this compelling episode of "The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show," hosted by iHeartPodcasts, Tudor Dixon delves deep into the CIA's evolving counterterrorism strategies with Michael Ellis, the Deputy Director of the CIA. The conversation offers listeners an insider's perspective on how the CIA is adapting to contemporary threats, particularly focusing on the rise of international cartels and the growing geopolitical tensions with China.

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Introduction to the CIA's Shift in Counterterrorism Focus

[08:50 - 09:08]

Tudor Dixon opens the episode by introducing Michael Ellis, emphasizing the significance of having a top CIA official discuss the agency's current and future strategies. Dixon highlights the CIA's broader mission under President Trump's administration, setting the stage for a detailed exploration of counterterrorism efforts.

• Tudor Dixon: "Welcome to the Tudor Dixon Podcast. Last week I had the honor of sitting down with the deputy director of the CIA, Michael Ellis."

Targeting International Terrorism: The Case of Jafar

[09:09 - 11:48]

Ellis recounts a significant achievement within the first hundred days of the administration: the capture and extradition of Jafar, a key organizer behind the Abbey Gate plot aimed at killing American service members. This operation underscored the CIA's commitment to dismantling terrorist networks.

• Michael Ellis: "One great win from the first hundred days... we found him, tracked him down, helped extradite him to the United States, where he was going to be facing charges to be held accountable."

Redefining Counter-Narcotics as Counterterrorism

[11:48 - 15:28]

A pivotal point in the discussion is the reclassification of international cartels as terrorist organizations. Ellis explains how this strategic shift unlocks additional legal authorities, enabling the CIA to employ counterterrorism tactics against these groups. The focus has expanded from traditional threats like Al Qaeda to the internal menace posed by drug cartels responsible for the fentanyl crisis.

• Ryan Seacrest (Tudor Dixon): "The President Trump's priorities is the total elimination of the cartels. And that is what we are going to do with CIA."

• Michael Ellis: "This is about dismantling a network. That is something that CIA has spent two decades of the war on terror learning how to do."

Impact of Designating Cartels as Terrorist Organizations

[11:48 - 12:00]

Ellis elaborates on the implications of this designation, noting that it provides the CIA and other government agencies with enhanced tools to combat these groups more effectively.

• Ryan Seacrest: "They're recognizing these groups... it unlocks some additional legal authorities... to take on this threat."

Public Perception and Media Representation

[12:53 - 14:34]

Michael Ellis addresses the public's perception of these operations, particularly how media portrayal impacts the understanding of the threat posed by cartels. He emphasizes the importance of humanizing both the perpetrators and the victims to illustrate the real consequences of failing to secure national borders.

• Michael Ellis: "Putting the faces on it... like remembering the harm that has been caused by the failure to secure our border."

China as the Foremost National Security Threat

[20:12 - 25:39]

A significant portion of the conversation shifts to China's role as the primary geopolitical adversary. Ellis and Dixon discuss China's multifaceted threat, encompassing economic espionage, intellectual property theft, and technological competition. They highlight how President Trump was pivotal in recognizing and addressing these challenges, contrasting it with previous administrations' policies.

• Ryan Seacrest: "China, in addition to the fentanyl precursor problem... President Trump was the first one to stand up and really change the dynamic."

• Michael Ellis: "China really was what crushed our foundry and so many others in the United States."

Intellectual Property Theft and Economic Espionage

[22:17 - 23:14]

Ellis delves into the specifics of intellectual property theft, illustrating how Chinese entities have systematically copied American innovations, thereby crippling domestic industries. He underscores the need for robust countermeasures to protect U.S. technological advancements.

• Michael Ellis: "It's very dangerous to have them get a hold of our intellectual property."

• Ryan Seacrest: "We have to empower the American private sector, and we have to understand China's capabilities to be able to succeed in that competition."

Restoring Deterrence and Enhancing Cybersecurity

[23:14 - 24:23]

The discussion moves to the importance of restoring deterrence against China's aggressive cyber activities. Ellis points out that previous efforts lacked the teeth needed to hold Chinese adversaries accountable, advocating for more offensive operations to impose significant costs on violators.

• Ryan Seacrest: "Sometimes that means that we have to engage in offensive operations ourselves to be able to create again, a cost to China..."

Balancing Multiple Threats: Beyond China

[24:23 - 25:39]

While China stands out as the paramount threat, Ellis acknowledges other ongoing challenges, including Russia, Iran, North Korea, ISIS, and Al Qaeda. He emphasizes that despite these varied threats, China's unique position as a technological and economic powerhouse presents an existential risk to U.S. interests.

• Ryan Seacrest: "None of them have the capability that China has. None of them pose an existential threat to America in the way that China does."

Reprioritizing within the CIA Post-Biden Administration

[25:39 - 27:03]

Ellis reflects on the changes within the CIA following the transition from the Biden to the Trump administration. He criticizes previous leadership for allowing social and cultural distractions to interfere with the agency's mission. Under his and Director Ratcliffe's leadership, the CIA is reestablishing a meritocratic and mission-focused culture.

• Ryan Seacrest: "We're putting the focus on squarely back on the mission, the social and cultural issues... should not be doing it at work."

Conclusion: A Renewed Commitment to National Security

[27:01 - 27:03]

Ellis concludes by expressing gratitude for the opportunity to lead the CIA into a new era of focused counterterrorism and counter-narcotics efforts, highlighting the importance of these initiatives for national security.

• Michael Ellis: "I think the first hundred days has been phenomenal. We're excited to see what else you do."

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Key Takeaways

1. Strategic Shift: The CIA is reorienting its counterterrorism efforts to address not only traditional threats like Al Qaeda but also the significant internal threat posed by international cartels involved in the fentanyl crisis.

2. Designation of Cartels as Terrorist Organizations: This move provides the CIA with enhanced legal tools to combat cartels more effectively, treating them with the same urgency as other terrorist groups.

3. China as a Principal Threat: China is identified as the foremost national security threat due to its extensive involvement in intellectual property theft, economic espionage, and technological competition.

4. Restoring Deterrence: There is a renewed focus on implementing robust deterrence strategies against Chinese cyber activities, including potential offensive operations to impose costs on violators.

5. Internal Reforms within the CIA: Under new leadership, the CIA is striving to eliminate distractions, fostering a meritocratic environment focused solely on the agency's mission to protect national security.

6. Holistic National Security Approach: The conversation underscores the importance of a comprehensive approach that combines international intelligence efforts with domestic law enforcement to address multifaceted threats.

Notable Quotes

• Michael Ellis, Deputy Director of the CIA:

  • "[...] we're shifting resources, we're shifting personnel, but really we're taking some of the lessons learned from that counterterrorism fight to destroy the cartels." [09:27]

• Ryan Seacrest (Tudor Dixon):

  • "China... is the top priority for us. This is an existential threat." [20:28]

• Michael Ellis:

  • "None of them pose an existential threat to America in the way that China does." [24:39]

• Ryan Seacrest:

  • "We're putting the focus on squarely back on the mission, the social and cultural issues... should not be doing it at work." [25:58]

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Conclusion

This episode provides a revealing look into the CIA's strategic priorities and the broader national security landscape. Michael Ellis articulates a clear vision for addressing both traditional and emerging threats, emphasizing the necessity of adaptability and focused leadership within intelligence agencies. For listeners interested in understanding the complexities of modern counterterrorism and the geopolitical challenges posed by nations like China, this episode offers valuable insights and a roadmap for future efforts.

Transcript

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[Tutor Dixon]

Welcome to the Tudor Dixon Podcast. Last week I had the honor of sitting down with the deputy director of the CIA, Michael Ellis. And this was such an exciting experience because we were included in the new media that got the firsthand information from the top members of the administration. We got to actually go to D.C. and sit down with them. It was kind of like a celebration of the first hundred days. But the deputy director also shared insight into some of the new ways that the CIA is working. And I say that because they've been given the ability to kind of change up how things were going in the Biden administration and do things differently under the Trump administration. We also talked talk about some of the changes like the cartels being designated as terrorist organizations because once you designate them that way, the CIA can change how they work things. And that can also affect so many other areas that we're focused on and that the Trump administration is focused on, like the fentanyl crisis, the fentanyl coming in from China, how you go after China for some of the things they're doing, and a whole lot more. But before we get into that interview with the deputy director of the CIA, first let me talk to you about my partners preborn. When a mother with an unplanned pregnancy is deciding about the future of her unborn child, it's overwhelming. She wants to make the right choice, but society and those around her are telling her that her baby's just not a life. Preborn's whole ministry is to love these women and to empower them with the choice of life. And it's an external. It's an eternal moment for these women. But I want to share one woman's story with you. It's Stephanie Stephen. Stephanie was scared and afraid and she felt like she didn't deserve love and support. But after receiving so much love and support from a caring clinic, she experienced her eternal moment when she met her child on an ultrasound. She left the clinic that day feeling hopeful and now she is so blessed by her five year old son. It was a life saved. So when you support the ministry of Preborn, you are supporting pro life clinics nationwide with free ultrasounds to help empower a mom to choose life. Your tax deductible donation of $28 monthly is reaching eternity. To get involved, simply dial £250 and say the keyword baby. That's £250 baby. Or visit preborn.comtutor that's preborn.comtutor and this interview is sponsored by Preborn. Stay tuned because I've got Michael Alice coming right up.

[Lisa Booth]

Did you know that just like here in the US Israel has their own Independence Day in you missed it this year. Israel's Independence Day was a few days ago on May 1. But for the people of Israel, freedom is nothing more than a daily struggle to survive. There's no real peace, only terror. No joy, just suffering. The Israeli government relies on the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews for ongoing help to make sure the elderly, the sick, the wounded, soldiers and impoverished families don't fall through the cracks. That's why your gift to the Fellowship will provide such important life saving aid, medicine, hearty meals, safety and comfort. I believe that when you bless the people of Israel, we unlock God's blessing in our lives as well. So to show your support for Israel's independence, you can make a life saving gift today. You can call 888-488-IFCJ. That's 888-488-4325. You can also go online to ifcj.org that's ifcj.org this is Lisa Booth from.

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[Tutor Dixon]

Are in the executive office building here.

[Michael Ellis]

At the White House, and we have the deputy director of the CIA with us, Michael Ellis. Michael, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Thank you for having me. It's great to be here with you tonight.

[Michael Ellis]

Absolutely. This is actually, like, I'm totally geeked out about this, so I'm trying to be cool, but I'm actually really excited. But I'm really excited because of what everything that you guys are doing.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yes.

[Michael Ellis]

There's a couple of different things I want to hit on today because I know that you have a counterterrorism unit and you've talked a little bit about what you're doing with the cartels and how they've been designated as terrorist organizations. Now, you've also said that that goes beyond the border. So can you explain a little bit about that?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, absolutely. And thank you again for having me here today. It is an honor to serve in President Trump's administration as the deputy director of the CIA, working as part of a great team with Director Ratcliffe and me and the other members of national security team for President Trump. You know, on the counterterrorism front. You know, one great win from the first hundred days that I wanted to highlight is we brought back Jafar. This is the guy who was one of the Abbey Gate plotters who organized an attack to kill 13American service members that, you know, working with interagency counterparts. We found him, tracked him down, helped extradite him to the United States, where he was going to be facing charges to be held accountable. That was within the first hundred days, I think it was in late, late February, in the early days of administration to. But you know, CIA has been working on finding these kind of terrorist targets for, for years. Right. I mean, these are taking an enormous amount of effort to try to track down these terrorists to, to where they are and again, to bring them to justice, to hold them accountable. That was one great win from the first hundred days. But you mentioned, you know, on the counter narcotics front, you know, one of the President Trump's priorities is the total elimination of the cartels. And that is what we are going to do with CIA. You know, we're obviously part of a whole of government effort. We aren't the only agency in this fight. But, you know, for too long, I think the intelligence community viewed the counternarcotics fight as a little more of a law enforcement problem. We sort of viewed it like, well, that's for FBI, it's for dhs. It's not really something that we do. We're worried about China and Russia and Al Qaeda and we, look, we have to worry about all of those, all of those bad actors too. But, you know, the cartels, you know, they are killing Americans every day, right? Tens of thousands of Americans dying from fentanyl coming into the United States. And that is, you know, something we can't ignore. Right. It's the numbers are, are astounding. And so that's an area that Director Radcliffe and I have prioritized. We're shifting resources, we're shifting personnel, but really we're taking some of the lessons learned from that counterterrorism fight to destroy the cartels. Because it's the same, obviously, different motivations, different structures. But then today we're talking about dismantling a network. And that is something that CIA has spent two decades of, the war on terror learning how to do.

[Michael Ellis]

How does the new designation as terrorist organizations change your ability to go after them? What is the. Yeah, to the random person. Tell us what exactly that means.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, well, I can't get into too many specifics about, you know, how that affects the work we do, but I will say it is helpful, right. They're recognizing these groups. And they are foreign terrorist organizations. The President has designated them as such. And that does unlock some additional legal authorities in a variety of realms that make it easier for CIA and other parts of the US Government to take on this threat. But again, we've built a finely tuned machine at CIA over the past 20 years since more than that, since 9, 11, to find, fix and finish terrorist targets. And now we're going to be taking that machine, turning to the cartels. It might mean that we have to, you know, have a few more Spanish speakers and, you know, maybe the Arabic speakers might have to learn Spanish too. Right. As we turn to this problem set. But it's too important. It's right in our backyard, and we can't. We can't afford to ignore it for any longer.

[Michael Ellis]

Well, I think that's how we have all felt. I mean, we walked in today and we saw all the pictures of the people on the front lawn, all of the folks that have been arrested. And it's interesting because I saw someone post today what kind of sick organization looks at this and says, I want to put these people's pictures and put them in the lawn. And I'm like, this is lost on the radical left. It is lost on the left that these people have come into our country and committed horrendous, horrendous crimes. And the reason, I believe, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, the reason for putting these out there so people can actually see this person committed this crime and was taken out of this country is so people can say, there really, truly were bad guys here.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah.

[Michael Ellis]

And we're really doing something.

[Ryan Seacrest]

No. And it crystallizes it. Right. You know, you can look at the statistics, you can look at the data, and that's meaningful, obviously. But, you know, data can be sterile and impersonal. Right. Putting the faces on it and, you know, the faces of the victims as well. Right. Like remembering, like the harm that has been caused by the failure to secure our border. It really brings it home to people. So look, you know, CIA obviously has international focus. Right. We don't have a domestic security function. But just like terrorism, the narcotics threat is one that originates overseas. Right. It starts with precursor chemicals in China coming into Mexico and other countries in Latin America. It's being synthesized into deadly doses, Fentanyl and then being smuggled across our border. Right. So there's a domestic component to that. Right. We need our domestic law enforcement agencies to help. On the domestic side, there's also a foreign component, and that's where CIA and the rest of the intelligence community can, can help with the fight.

[Michael Ellis]

What is this may sound like a stupid question, but what is the purpose of it? Is it for them to make money? Is it to hurt Americans? Is this terrorism?

[Ryan Seacrest]

It's, you know, and that's one of the areas where I think, again, it is a little different than the traditional terrorist threat because the motivations are different. It's primarily financial, you know, because if it, if it's, before fentanyl, there was cocaine. I mean, there still is cocaine. That's still a problem too, don't get me wrong. Right. But that was which drug it is is varied over time based on what's going to make them the most money. But for too long, again, these cartels have prospered from the, you know, an atmosphere where they could operate in relative impunity. So we're working with, you know, with partner governments in the area too. You know, the Mexicans, they don't want these cartels running their country. They don't want the violence, the corruption it brings.

[Tutor Dixon]

I'd like to change gears for a minute and talk about Israel. It's now the month of May and 80 years ago this very month, the horror of the Holocaust, the final solution, came to an end. But do you know that half of all Holocaust survivors live in Israel? The pain of the past now intensified today by October 7 and the rise of antisemitism everywhere. And along with other elderly Jews, thousands in Israel live below the poverty line. There's no safety net there. That's why I support the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. The Fellowship provides a lifeline to these precious ones in the form of hot meals and boxes full of healthy food. And for only $25, you can help provide a food box. And better yet, for $335, it provides hot meals for an entire year. To give generously, call 888-488 IFCJ. Again, that's 888-488-4325 or go online to [e-mail] that's ifcj.org did you know that.

[Lisa Booth]

Just like here in the US Israel has their own Independence Day? In case you missed it this year, Israel's Independence Day was a few days ago on May 1. But for the people of Israel, freedom is nothing more than a daily struggle to survive. There's no real peace, only terror, no joy, just suffering. The Israeli government relies on the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews for ongoing help to make the elderly, the sick, the wounded, soldiers and impoverished families don't fall through the cracks. That's why your gift to the Fellowship will provide such important life saving aid, medicine, hearty meals, safety and comfort. I believe that when you bless the people of Israel, we unlock God's blessing in our lives as well. So to show your support for Israel's independence, you can make a life saving gift today. You can call 888488 ifcj that's 888-488-4325. You can also go online to ifcj.org that's ifcj.org this is Lisa Booth from.

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[Tutor Dixon]

Hands, there's an efficient way to get caught up on a lot of news. It's called the seven from the Washington Post. It's a newsletter and podcast. Whether you're reading or hit play, you get seven stories you need to know and you can consume it all in just a few minutes. The 7 is out every weekday morning by 7:00am Eastern. I'm Hannah Jewell, I'm one of the writers and I host the show. Find the seven Podcast wherever you're listening.

[Hannah Jewell]

The newsletter link is waiting for you.

[Tutor Dixon]

In the show Notes.

[Colby Ekowitz]

Deciding on what to listen to is hard. Using Xumo to stream music from iHeart 90s radio is easy. Or play Iheart country or hip hop beats your choice. All for free. Stream Easy with Zumo Play. Get live and on demand entertainment with no logins, no signups, no accounts, no hassle. This may stay in and binge American Hustle starring Bradley Cooper, Christian Bale and Jennifer Lawrence, Layer Cake with Daniel Craig and Sienna Miller and Snatch with Brad Pitt. All streaming free on Zumo Play. Go to play.zumo.com now life is hard. Zumo is easy.

[Rodney Williams]

The wait is almost over. Get ready for the NFL season like never before with a highly anticipated 2025 NFL schedule release every rivalry, every rematch, every rookie debut, every game revealed. The dates will be set, primetime matchups will be known, and the road to the super bowl starts here. The full NFL schedule release this Wednesday. Get all of the [e-mail] ScheduleRelease I.

[Michael Ellis]

Joke about it because it's so ridiculous that we had to have it because we. I think we. So many of us knew, and it was. It was almost punishable if you said that you thought it was a lab leak. So we are so grateful to you for what you do to come out and say, these are the facts, this is the truth.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I mean, and that's what the President deserves, right? Deserve intelligence assessment. The American people, they deserve intelligence assessments that are supported by the facts on the ground. Right? No politics, no bias in it, just the most accurate assessment to inform the President's foreign policy decisions. You know, on China more broadly, though, as well, I think a tremendous amount of credit is due to President Trump for recognizing the threat that China poses to the United States, and he recognized it before anyone else did in Washington. You know, the national security strategy of the United States in Republican and Democratic administrations alike for decades said it was US Policy to enable the peaceful rise of China. Right? That was our policy to enable their rise. President Trump was the first one who came in in 2017. It's like, that's not the policy anymore, right? China, in addition to the fentanyl precursor problem that we were discussing on trade issues, on intellectual property theft, on cybersecurity, on issue after issue that they just hadn't been following the rules, and President Trump was the first one to stand up and really change the dynamic. And for the CIA, now, it's the top priority for us. This is an existential threat. And it's a technological competition that we're in with China, where whether it's AI or quantum computing or biotechnology, we have to prevail, right? We have to empower the American private sector, and we have to understand China's capabilities to be able to succeed in that competition.

[Michael Ellis]

I mean, so I come from the manufacturing world, and I would say that China really was what crushed our foundry and so many others in the United States. So I watched as our customers would take their products over to China, and then China would just copy them.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well. And, you know, they never allowed US Companies the same access to the Chinese market. The Chinese companies had the US Market. And yes, you know, you look at product after product, that looks suspicious where the Chinese version looks suspiciously similar to. Yeah, I mean, look at Their fifth generation fighter, fighter jet that looks an awful lot like the F35, which, you.

[Michael Ellis]

Know, again, that's what people don't understand, that we've actually had military equipment made by our adversary and they have been able to copy some of what we're doing, but they copy everything. And so Jack Dorsey just recently came out and he said, we wants to get rid of IP laws and get rid of any laws on intellectual property. And I just think this is how naive people can be. This is what you've created, this is, you own this, this is what you've built. And you could have anybody in the United States, but certainly foreign actors. It's very dangerous to have them get a hold of our intellectual property.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. And part of the problem, again, historically was that there wasn't any deterrence, there wasn't any cost on foreign adversaries who engaged in this kind of intellectual property theft. Right. You know, Chinese hackers would penetrate, whether it's a US Company or government agency. And look, there was sometimes there were sanctions or name shaming and criminal indictments, but those are ultimately toothless because the Chinese hackers never showed up in the US So we never arrested them. And they operated after the US Defense system. So sanctions weren't particularly meaningful. And that's an area where President Trump again has started to make a difference in his first administration and where CIA and other parts of the government can play a role in the second administration to start restoring deterrence. Right. And sometimes that means that we have to engage in offensive operations ourselves to be able to create again, a cost to China and other and other bad actors on cybersecurity, to make them realize that they can't act with impunity. If they engage in spend behavior, there will be a price for it.

[Michael Ellis]

Do you think that is our biggest threat today is China? I mean, we see them in anywhere from globally in our, in our, you know, they're, they're building new naval ports across the globe.

[Tutor Dixon]

We're going to even see them in space.

[Michael Ellis]

So what is the, is, is China our biggest threat?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, I mean, they, they are the great power competitor right now. Right. Whether it's, as you mentioned, the military or the political front, but in the economic front, we're just talking about, obviously there are other threats out there. Russia, Iran, North Korea. We worry about all of them too. ISIS and Al Qaeda, you know, we can't take our at the ball on any of them. But at the end of the day, none of them have the capability that China has. None of them pose an existential threat to America in the way that China does. You know, when Director Ratcliffe and I, when we lay out our priorities inside of CIA and turn our great people towards taking on these threats on behalf of the President, it's China and technology. Because I think, again, the competition with China is a technological competition in a way that our competition in the Soviet Union during the Cold War really wasn't. And it's the cartels, because, again, that's. That scourge of deadly drugs is killing Americans. You know, that's in our backyard. So we have. We have to put that in order before we can get that and everything else.

[Michael Ellis]

Before I let you go, I want to ask, coming into the CIA after the Biden administration, what have you seen that you. I mean, you talked about getting the guy from the Abbey Gate.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yes.

[Michael Ellis]

Why did that take so long? Has the. Has the CIA changed since the Biden.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Administration changed the priorities? And, you know, another area where Director Ratcliffe and I have really, you know, changed things is just on focusing on mission. Right. The CIA, like many other parts of society and many other parts of the government, I think, was distracted by the agenda. Things that really took away from our ability to carry out the mission on behalf of the American people. So we want an ultimate meritocracy at CIA. We want an elite workforce. This mission is important. There's no time for these distractions or survive. No, that's not what we should be doing. Right. So we're putting the focus on. Squarely back on the mission, the social and cultural issues. You know, people can do that in their own time. They shouldn't be doing it at work.

[Michael Ellis]

Yes. Well, I think that the majority of Americans agree, and that's why President Trump came in with a mandate. We appreciate what you're doing there, and I think the first hundred days has been phenomenal. We're excited to see what else you do, but congratulations on what you've done so far.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Thank you. And thank you so much for having me today.

[Tutor Dixon]

Thank you all for joining me on the Today Tutor Dixon podcast. For this episode and others, go to tutordixonpodcast.com you can subscribe right there or head over to the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And join us next time on the Tutor Dixon podcast. Have a blessed day.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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