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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Verdict with Ted Cruz: Maduro Arrested-Why Trump Ordered this Historic Attack & the Detailed Legal Basis for his Authority to Do So
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- [00:00]
Ben Ferguson
This is an iHeart podcast, guaranteed human.
- [00:06]
Welcome. It is Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson with you and Senator, this is a show we get to start. That was something that we thought could happen, but the way it happened was truly incredible. Maduro is now in New York City, not far from where you are in Washington, D.C. right now. I promise you, he didn't think that was going to happen. And no loss of American life in going in and getting him. God bless our men and women in uniform. They are just incredible heroes right now.
- [00:33]
Senator Ted Cruz
Well, listen, we are living in extraordinary times. And what transpired this weekend was extraordinary. It was an incredible act of military might, of military precision. It was an incredible intelligence victory. The US Military went in on Saturday into Venezuela, captured Nicolas Maduro, captured his wife, removed them from Venezuela, brought them to New York for criminal prosecution. As you noted, without the loss of even a single American life. That is a big, big deal. It is incredibly complicated to go into a Venezuelan military base. You know, there had been a lot of talk about all of the anti aircraft air defenses that Venezuela had, many of them from Russia. At the end of the day, the operation was flawless. And I will give an enormous amount of credit to President Trump. President Trump acted decisively in ordering this attack. There was real risk. It could have gone badly. And if it had gone badly, that that would not have, obviously would not have been good. There could have been real loss of life that didn't happen. There were a thousand ways this could have gone wrong, but it was flawlessly executed. And right now, the people of Venezuela are better off, the people of America are better off, and the world is better off. And so what we're going to do on this podcast, there are podcasts that you and I do that I think are particularly important. And I would put this one in that category. We're going to analyze why Venezuela matters so much, why President Trump ordered the military, ordered the FBI to go arrest Maduro, why that matters, and why both Venezuela and America are better off because of it. And then we're also going to break down not just the geopolitical implications of it, but the legal implications. You're hearing a lot of folks on tv, every Democrat and most of the media are beating their chests saying this is illegal. There's no basis Trump is the dictator here. And so we're going to break down in some real detail the legal basis. I believe the President had the authority to order this arrest. I think it was carried out pursuant to the constitution, pursuant to U.S. law. But I'm going to Break down and explain why. And then we're going to talk also some about what next, what happens in Venezuela next. And I got to say, question three, I think, is the most complicated question. It is a question that is rife with risk, but, but also has a real potential not just to transform Venezuela, but to transform the entire Western Hemisphere. And so this is a moment to be celebrating a great military success, to be optimistic for the future, but also to be cautious because there are a lot of ways that this could go sideways. And so I think it matters a great deal how the administration proceeds in the next three years.
- [03:22]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah, it's going to be really interesting to see. We're going to break all that down for you. I want to take a moment, though, and talk to you about our friends at Compassion International. Right now, somewhere in the world, a kid you've never met is writing you a letter. They're telling you about their day, their dreams, the goal they scored, the test they passed, the new friend they made at school. Maybe they're drawing you even a picture. Maybe they've asked you about your family, your favorite color, what makes you laugh. They're wondering who you are, this person who cares enough to be part of their story. And you, you're not just sending money. You're writing back. You're showing up month after month, letter after letter, you're celebrating their victories, encouraging them through challenges and reminding them that they truly matter. Now, this isn't a transaction. It's an incredible relationship that spans continents and changes everything for both of you. That is where Compassion International connects you directly with one child. Real letters, real relationships and real change. Because poverty isn't solved with donations alone. It's solved by showing up, impact the world one child at a time and learn how@compassion.com that's compassion.com all right. So Senator, I want to start with just laying the groundwork here. There has been a lot of media attention acting like this was somehow just the President going warp speed and just deciding on a whim to do this. This was a marathon. It was laid out with, with indictments there. The idea that this was some sort of, of like quick knee jerk reaction by the President of the United States of America is total insanity. There was incredible military planning that went into this, including building the same structure that they knew they were going to have to go into. There was CIA on the ground, we were told, and lots of intelligence that was gathered in Venezuela as well. And yet the media tried to say, well, this is just some, you know, dictator Tyrone and Donald Trump going in there and just taking out somebody. No, it wasn't. There was a marathon, including conversations directly with Maduro and telling him you've got multiple off ramps which you chose not to take.
- [05:43]
Senator Ted Cruz
Well, let's start with what happened and then we're going to talk about why it happened and what the geopolitical incentives, what the reasons were for going in and capturing Maduro. Then we're going to talk about the legal basis and finally we're going to talk about what happens next. But let's just start with what, what happened on Saturday. And the best explanation of it that I've seen is from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Dan Kaine, nicknamed Raisin Cain. And he laid out exactly what happened. And this clip is a little long, it's about six, seven minutes. But it's worth listening to because he lays out with precision what exactly occurred. So listen to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Kaine.
- [06:21]
General Mark Milley
This operation, known as Operation Absolute Resolve was discreet, precise and conducted during the darkest hours of January 2nd and was in the culmination of months of planning and rehearsal. We watched, we waited, we prepared, we remained patient and professional. This mission was meticulously planned, drawing lessons from decades of missions over the last many years. Decades, many missions over these last many years. This was an audacious operation that only the United States could do. It required the utmost of precision and integration within our joint force. And the word integration does not explain the sheer complexity of such a mission. An extraction so precise it involved more than 150 aircraft launching across the Western hemisphere in close coordination, all coming together in time and place to layer effects for a single purpose. To get an interdiction force into downtown Caracas while maintaining the element of tactical surprise. Failure of one component of this well oiled machine would have endangered the entire mission. And failure is never an option for America's joint force. Those in the air over Caracas last night were willing to give their lives for those on the ground and in the helicopters. Let me talk a little bit about the preparation after months of work by our intelligence teammates to find Maduro and understand how he moved, where he lived, where he traveled, what he ate, what he wore, what were his pets. In early December, our force was set pending a series of aligned events. Key was choosing the right day to minimize the potential for civilian harm and maximize the element of surprise and minimize the harm to the indicted personnel so as the President said, they could be brought to justice. And as the President said earlier today, weather in Venezuela and is always a factor. This time of the year. And over the weeks, through Christmas and New Year's, the men and women of the United States military sat ready, patiently waiting for the right triggers to be met and the President to order us into action. Last night, the weather broke just enough, clearing a path that only the most skilled aviators in the world could maneuver through ocean, mountain, low clouds, ceilings. But when tasked with a mission, this organization does not quit. At 10:46pm Eastern time last night, the President ordered the United States military to move forward with this mission. He said to us, and we appreciate it, Mr. President, good luck and Godspeed. And those words were transmitted to the entire joint force. Over the course of the night, aircraft began launching from 20 different bases on land and sea across the western hemisphere. In total, more than 150 aircraft, bombers, fighters, intelligence, reconnaissance, surveillance, rotary wing were in the air Last night, Thousands and thousands of hours of experience were airborne. Our youngest crew member was 20 and our oldest crew member was 49. And there's simply no match for American military might. As the night began, the helicopters took off with the extraction force, which included law enforcement officers, and began their flight into Venezuela at 100ft above the water. As they approached Venezuelan shores, the United States began layering different effects provided by Spacecom, Cybercom and other members of the interagency to create a pathway overhead. Those forces were protected from aircraft, were protected by aircraft from the United States Marines, the United States Navy, the United States Air Force, and the Air National Guard. The force included F22s, F35s, F18s E, A18s, E2s, B1 bombers and other support aircraft, as well as numerous remotely piloted drones. As the force began to approach Caracas, the joint air component began dismantling and disabling the air defense systems in Venezuela, employing weapons to ensure the safe passage of the helicopters into the target area. The goal of our air component is was and always will be to protect the helicopters and the ground force and get them to the target and get them home. As the force crossed the last point of high terrain where they'd been hiding in the clutter, we assessed that we had maintained totally the element of surprise as the helicopter force ingressed towards the objective at low level. We arrived at Maduro's compound at 1:01am Eastern Standard Time, or 2:01am Caracas local time. And the apprehension force descended into Maduro's compound and moved with speed, precision and discipline towards their objective and isolated the area to ensure the safety and security of the ground force while apprehending the indicted persons on arrival into the target area, the helicopters came under fire and they replied without fire with overwhelming force and self defense. One of our aircraft was hit but remained flyable and as the President said earlier today, all of our aircraft came home and that aircraft remained flyable during the rest of the mission. As the operation unfolded at the compound, our air and ground intelligence teams provided real time updates to the ground force, ensuring those forces could safely navigate the complex environment without unnecessary risk. The force remained protected by overhead tactical aviation. Maduro and his wife, both indicted, gave up and were taken into custody by the Department of Justice, assisted by our incredible US Military with professionalism and precision, with no loss of US Life. After securing the indicted persons, the force began to prep for departure. Helicopters were called in to exfiltrate the extraction force while fighter aircraft and remotely piloted aircraft provided overhead coverage and suppressive fire. There were multiple self defense engagements. As the force began to withdraw out of Venezuela. The force successfully exfiltrated and returned to their afloat launch bases and the force was over the water at 3:29am Eastern Standard Time with indicted persons on board. And both Maduro and his wife were embarked aboard the USS Iwo Jima.
- [13:37]
Ben Ferguson
You listen to that story, Senator, and it's one that for me is just like God bless America. Like our men and women, they are such heroes and I'm so proud of them. I know when you were listening to that and watching like everyone else was just that pure sense of pride in your country to see our military get that. I also think the recognition they deserve for doing this is another part of it and Trump's love, letting them do their job. It goes back to what the FBI director says. We're letting good cops be good cops. We're being letting law enforcement, law enforcement, they're letting the military men and women do what they do well without all the bs, all the political correctness like let them do their job well and.
- [14:18]
Senator Ted Cruz
Focusing on the bad guys. And you look at the precision. This was an incredibly complicated military operation and law enforcement arrest operation. And to go in Caracas is a city of about 5 million people in the metropolitan area. To go into a major city, to go into a military base where you have soldiers, you've got anti aircraft equipment, to go in successfully, not have a helicopter, not have a plane shot down, that was execution on the part of Delta Force, that was execution in terms of satellites and spy operations, the CIA on the ground. The ability to neutralize Venezuela's ability to inflict harm and strike back and to execute this flawlessly was Remarkable. And here's how President Trump put it. President Trump put it very pithy. But listen to what the President said about what happened on Saturday.
- [15:14]
General Mark Milley
Late last night and early today, at my direction, the United States armed forces conducted an extraordinary military operation in the capital of Venezuela.
- [15:29]
Ben Ferguson
Overwhelming American military power, air, land and.
- [15:32]
General Mark Milley
Sea was used to launch a spectacular assault.
- [15:37]
Senator Ted Cruz
And it was an assault like people.
- [15:39]
General Mark Milley
Have not seen since World War II. It was a force against a heavily.
- [15:44]
Senator Ted Cruz
Fortified military fortress in the heart of.
- [15:47]
General Mark Milley
Caracas to bring outlaw dictator Nicolas Maduro to justice. This was one of the most stunning, effective and powerful displays of American military might and competence in American history.
- [16:03]
Ben Ferguson
And if you think about it, we've.
- [16:05]
General Mark Milley
Done some other good ones, like the attack on Soleimani, the attack on Al Baghdadi, and the obliteration and decimation of the Iran nuclear sites.
- [16:18]
Ben Ferguson
You listen to that list from the President. Like, what he's been able to do with foreign policy has been pretty incredible also in doing it in a way that protects American lives as well.
- [16:27]
Senator Ted Cruz
Yeah, yeah, look. And this is the opposite of military adventurism, of putting American troops on the ground for an extended period of time. This is going after a clear, discreet objective, an enemy of America, and carrying out with precision. I don't think there's another military on the face of the planet that could carry out what the US Military did this weekend. And I got to say, every enemy of America has got to be looking at this. China is looking at this going, wow. Russia is looking at this, going, wow. Iran. Well, Iran doesn't have to look at this because Iran saw when the president last year ordered B2s to fly around the globe and drop the equivalent of half a nuclear weapon. Bunker busters on the Iranian nuclear facilities, take them out again, no American loss of life. The precision, they hit precisely their target. They destroyed their target. In this instance, the same is true. And let's talk about why. So, so, so Venezuela.
- [17:27]
Ben Ferguson
I think it's really important that people understand the why here.
- [17:30]
Senator Ted Cruz
So Nicolas Maduro and his wife were both arrested and they were transported to New York City. Maduro is the dictator of Venezuela. He is number one illegitimate in power. He had been the number two when Hugo Chavez, a communist, when he died in office. So Hugo Chavez, you look at Venezuela's history in 1950, where do you think Venezuela ranked in terms of GDP per capita?
- [17:57]
Ben Ferguson
I got to assume it was not that high.
- [17:59]
Senator Ted Cruz
It was number four in the world, really. In 1950, the top four countries for GDP per capita were the United States, Switzerland, New Zealand and Venezuela. Venezuela.
- [18:14]
Ben Ferguson
That's because of gold and oil. Right?
- [18:16]
Senator Ted Cruz
Gold and oil, enormous natural resources. It was an incredibly booming economy. But then what happened is Hugo Chavez, a communist, came into power and just utterly destroyed the economy there. Poverty skyrocketed. Chavez nationalized companies, nationalized oil resources. And where do you think Venezuela ranks in terms of the size of their oil reserves?
- [18:46]
Ben Ferguson
So I actually know too much about this. They are the largest oil reserves in the world, if I'm not mistaken.
- [18:51]
Senator Ted Cruz
You're exactly right. They're bigger than Saudi Arabia. They're bigger than the United States. They've got massive oil reserves. They were incredibly prosperous. But it turns out when communist comes.
- [19:01]
Ben Ferguson
Power, it doesn't matter what resources you've got, they can screw it up, isn't it? I mean, if you think about how small the country is compared to having the largest oil reserves in the world, you'd think, how could you ever have a government that's failing and a population living in poverty? And yet this is proof that communism, even with the number one oil reserve in the world, still doesn't work.
- [19:23]
Senator Ted Cruz
Yeah, Chavez, and then Maduro after him, destroyed the economy. Poverty skyrocketed. You've had over 8 million Venezuelans flee the country, go to neighboring countries, go to the United States, because they've just driven the economy into the ground. There also have been dictators and drug dealers. And if you look at Maduro, Maduro came into power initially when Chavez died of cancer. He was then elected to be the leader of Venezuela. But then in, in 2019, there was another election that, that America, international observers, everyone agrees Maduro lost. He was beaten in the election. The Venezuelan people said, no, we don't want Maduro. And he said, I don't care. I've got the army, I'm staying in power. Which part of dictator do you not understand? And, and, and for the last six years, he, he has been in power as a dictator. He has also opened Venezuela up. So, so he works in close harmony with Cuba, the communist government there.
- [20:22]
Ben Ferguson
He works Cuba, by the way, with their oil. A lot of people don't understand that, like Cuba desperately relies on Venezuela.
- [20:29]
Senator Ted Cruz
Yes, absolutely right. And we're going to talk about the consequences of what this means in Latin America, but especially Cuba, because I think it's highly consequential for Cuba. He also, Maduro has been very, very close to Putin in Russia. He relies on Putin and Russia. The, he's been very close to China and opened up, open up Venezuela to China. He also has had a very close relationship with Iran. You look at every enemy of America. And Maduro has said, if you're an enemy of America, my communist regime is in business with you. You've got Iranian operatives in Venezuela, you've got Hezbollah in Venezuela. And on top of that, Maduro has been a major drug dealer working his government, working hand in hand with the FARC and Colombia to bring massive amounts of drugs, particularly cocaine, into the United States. All of that is who Maduro is.
- [21:24]
Ben Ferguson
But by the way, you mentioned China a moment ago. Just to put in perspective that China was there within hours and their delegation was apparently still in the country when we took him out and brought him back to America. I mean, imagine you meet with Maduro and then you wake up a few hours later and they're like, maduro's been captured by America. Can you imagine China, what they're thinking right now?
- [21:45]
Senator Ted Cruz
Yeah, No, I mean, that was. They were literally meeting with him the day before the delegation was. The Chinese delegation was still in Venezuela, and boom, Maduro and his wife are gone. You know, actually, one of the best explanations of why Venezuela is so significant is ironically from the show Jack Ryan, you know, Tom Clancy's book series, Amazing writer.
- [22:08]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah.
- [22:09]
Senator Ted Cruz
And this is a clip that's gone viral online because it's just a couple of minutes. And it was back in 2019 with the fictional character Jack Ryan explaining to a classroom the importance of Venezuela. Give a listen. Watch this short clip.
- [22:24]
Ben Ferguson
What would you assume is the most major threat on the world stage? Anybody? Just call it out. You don't have to raise your hand.
- [22:29]
Senator Ted Cruz
Definitely Russia.
- [22:30]
Ben Ferguson
Definitely Russia. That's confident. I like it. Who says Russia? Anybody agree with her? And okay, who else?
- [22:36]
Senator Ted Cruz
China.
- [22:37]
Ben Ferguson
Stop yelling at me. But China is a good answer. Anybody? Who else?
- [22:41]
General Mark Milley
China? North Korea.
- [22:43]
Ben Ferguson
North Korea. Any North Korea takers? And Venezuela? Anybody?
- [22:50]
Senator Ted Cruz
No?
- [22:51]
Ben Ferguson
Oh, yeah, one guy in the back a little worried about Venezuela. Everybody's cool with Venezuela. No threat. Okay, let me ask you this. Which one of these places can claim to have the largest oil deposit on the planet? More than Saudi, More than Iran.
- [23:04]
Senator Ted Cruz
Wow.
- [23:05]
Ben Ferguson
Okay. What about things like gold? More than all the mines in Africa combined. The fact is that Venezuela is arguably the single greatest resource of oil and minerals on the planet. So why is this country in the midst of one of the greatest humanitarian crises in modern history? Let's meet President Nicolas Reyes. After rising to power on a wave of nationalist pride, in a mere six years, this guy has crippled the national economy by half. He has raised the poverty rate by almost 400%. Luckily for the rest of us, he's up for re election. So who's running against him? This is Gloria Benalde. Now Gloria is a history professor turned activist. She's running against him on a social justice platform and on the strength of, in my humble opinion, just not being an asshole analyst. Prediction as of today have the chances of Venezuela's total economic collapse at 87%. On the news they'll call it a crisis, but on the world stage they'll call it a failed state, if you've never heard that term. Other examples of a failed state in recent history are Yemen, Iraq and Syria. And if that's not bad enough news for you, well, Venezuela is Also the only one of these places within 30 minute range from the US of next gen nuclear missiles. You will not hear about any of this on the news because the biggest players on the world stage do not want you to. To them, unstable governments are nothing more than the greatest of opportunities. So Russia, China can never be the most major threat until countries like Venezuela leave the door open to our very own backyard.
- [24:57]
To our very own backyard. And that goes back to not only, like you said, the resources there, but why China and Russia and Iran and others need them so much, Senator, but also you gotta explain the drug trafficking aspect of this. I don't think people realize when they hear that this is what they have. A lot of people I'm sure, like, well then why didn't he just sell a bunch of oil? Why don't you just pump a bunch of oil? Why would he get into the drug narco trafficking and just sell all this oil and be rich? Right, simplify that. Explain that for people so they understand what was behind that decision to get into the narco trade.
- [25:33]
Senator Ted Cruz
So, and let me clarify something about that Jack Ryan clip. He talks about Nicholas Reyes. Nicholas Reyes is a fictional character. That's Tom Clancy. That's Nicholas Maduro. It just, they made up Reyes, I guess. You know, I don't know why Clancy didn't use the real guy, but it's fiction. So he made up Reyes. But what he's describing is Maduro is.
- [25:53]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah, exactly the same. The principle is the same.
- [25:55]
Senator Ted Cruz
Yeah. And that, look, it is why Russia, it is why China, it's why Iran, it's why Hezbollah cares so much about Venezuela. Vast resources and also proximity to the United states. It's about 2,000 miles away. It's four to five hours from Miami to Venezuela. A missile from Venezuela to the United States. It is very close for our enemies to attack us from Venezuela. It is in our hemisphere. And you go Back to the Monroe Doctrine. Early at the founding of our country, the Monroe Doctrine said, we're going to protect the Western Hemisphere, our hemisphere. And that's something that President Trump has really leaned in. And in fact, it's been dubbed now the Donroe Doctrine for President Trump really enforcing it and going and carrying out, carrying out this incredible military operation to arrest Maduro. Now, you asked why did. Why aren't they rich? They aren't rich because communism doesn't work. Communism is a failed economic system. They were rich when capitalism was. Was in operation. When capitalism was operating, they were producing the oil. The problem is when, when. When they nationalized the oil production.
- [27:10]
Ben Ferguson
Well, yeah, I was gonna say. Can we just explain. There was a point when, when people around the world wanted to go to Venezuela because it was such a nice country. It was a safe country. It's beautiful, has beaches. Like. I actually talked to a couple that are older that said we used to go to Venezuela as a vacation spot. It was before this all happened. They're much older now, but they were talking about how beautiful it was and it was a thriving country. The only thing that killed it is what you're describing right now.
- [27:37]
Senator Ted Cruz
By the way, the communists we have in the United States, most notably Comrade Mandami in New York, ought to take a lesson from what a train wreck, what a disaster communism is. We've seen that in Venezuela, we've seen that in Cuba, we've seen that in North Korea, we've seen that in the Soviet Union. Communism doesn't work and it's disastrously bad. And when the government nationalized oil production, it turns out that an authoritarian government is really bad at producing oil. It's incredibly corrupt. It didn't invest in technology. The technology all crumbled and it's in. Even though it's got massive reserves, its production is a fraction of what it used to be. And that's a significant reason. You know, one of the trades that Maduro did and Chavez before him is a trade with Cuba where Venezuela provides oil to Cuba and Cuba provides manpower, provides thugs, provides soldiers and enforcers that they use to oppress the Venezuelan people and that trade back and forth.
- [28:42]
Ben Ferguson
Some of those Cubans apparently were supposed to be protecting Maduro when we took them.
- [28:47]
Senator Ted Cruz
And I suspect some of those bodyguards are no longer with us. We don't have the clear tally on that, but I'm confident that although there was no loss of life on the American side, those who were defending this corrupt narco terrorist, I think there was. We'll find out how significant the loss of life was. But I'm confident some of those Cubans are no longer with us. That's why President Trump went in there, because you had, number one, Venezuela flooding America with drugs. Number two, Venezuela opening up our hemisphere to enemies of America, China, Russia, Iran, Hezbollah, all posing acute national security threats to the United States. And so that's why we went in there. And also, Venezuela is an incredibly harmful force throughout Latin America, trying to spread communism, trying to spread anti Americanism throughout Latin America. But all right, here's the $64,000 question. Is it illegal? If you turn on the TV, just about every academic, just about everyone in the media, just about every Democrat says, oh, this is horrible, this is illegal. There's no basis. So let's break down. The short answer is no, it was not illegal. This was fully justified. Now, why? The administration has several justifications. The administration has argued that the President ordered this, this attack and ordered this apprehension under his inherent authority under Article 2 of the Constitution. Now, what does that mean? Well, the Constitution divides war making, the power of war making between Congress and the President. And they both have different aspects of authority over war making. Article 1, which creates Congress and says all legislative authority is vested in the United States. Congress gives Congress the authority to declare war. So if there are extended protracted use of military force, particularly with forces on the ground, forces in harm's way, that then Congress should be involved. And I think Congress for a long time has not been vigilant enough asserting its Article 1 authority to be in charge of declaring war, in charge of authorizing military force. That's part of the authority on the Constitution. But the other authority on the constitution is Article 2, which establishes the office of the presidency. And the executive branch, makes the President the commander in chief. And there's an inherent authority there. There's a long line of authority that says that the President has an authority to, number one, respond to an imminent threat, number two, to protect us, to protect Americans. So, so what I think, and we'll see as this goes forward in litigation, what the precise justification is. But the principal justification is going to be the following. Maduro was indicted. He was indicted in New York City. The indictment, by the way, you can read the indictment. I've got the indictment right here in my hand. It is 25 pages. The opening of the indictment says, for over 25 years, leaders of Venezuela have abused their positions of public trust and corrupted once legitimate institutions to import tons of cocaine into the United States. Nicholas Maduro Moros, the defendant, is at the forefront of that corruption and has partnered with his co conspirators to use his illegally obtained authority in the institutions he corroded to transport thousands of tons of cocaine to the United States. And so this was an arrest effort. And so the FBI came and they arrested him, they brought him to the United States, to New York to be prosecuted in federal court.
- [32:37]
Ben Ferguson
A lot of people ask this question, why New York? We always see a lot of New York and people going to New York afterwards when they get charged. Why is New York a place where we see a lot of these high profile individuals be charged? Is that just the way that the courts have been set up? I know the answer. I want you to explain to everybody because they're like, why do we keep saying, I mean it can be anybody from P. Diddy to. The list goes on and on of people abstain that it's always New York. Why is that?
- [33:03]
Senator Ted Cruz
So all across the country there are US Attorney offices. All across the country those US Attorneys are appointed by the President. They're confirmed by the Senate. The Southern District of New York, which covers Manhattan has a great deal of expertise dealing with terrorism in particular. Obviously that's where 9, 11 was there been terrorism cases with respect to Maduro. You could have brought that case in multiple jurisdictions, multiple U.S. attorneys because the impacts of Maduro's flooding cocaine into this country have harmed every state in the union. But it is unsurprising that it would be the Southern District of New York leading this because they have such long expertise in dealing with terrorism cases in particular. And so that was where the U.S. attorney went to the grand jury and got the indictment. And the justification, the main justification for the military going in was to protect the FBI agents going to arrest Maduro. Because if they just sent the FBI agents, presumably Maduro's soldiers or bodyguards would have shot and killed them. And so the military was there to keep that law enforcement safe. That's the principal justification. There are a couple of other justifications. There's another justification which is that Maduro was leading a designated foreign terrorist organization. And so there are existing legal authorities to go after foreign terrorist organizations. That's something we're going to see litigation on this. And that surely is going to be a justification as well. And then there's also an inherent Authority under Article 2 to protect Americans from imminent threats. And so I suspect we will see some combination if not all three of those justifications put forward as the basis for the President ordering this operation.
- [34:57]
Ben Ferguson
Let's also be clear when there have been people on TV that just been lying, saying this is unprecedented and Trump is off the reservation. That is not true. We have gone after people that have done very similar things just like this before, and Democrats were in favor of it when that happened.
- [35:13]
Senator Ted Cruz
Yeah, no, no, look, there's massive hypocrisy from Democrats. But I will say that there's a long precedent that you can go back, but the close closest precedent is in 1990. Manuel Noriega. Manuel Noriega was leading Panama. He was corrupt. He had been indicted also as a drug dealer. He was the de facto ruler of Panama. And George Herbert Walker Bush, Bush 41, there was again an indictment. And President Bush the first, sent in the military to arrest and remove Noriega, just like they did with Maduro Noriega, actually. Do you know the date that Noriega was apprehended?
- [35:57]
Ben Ferguson
I don't. What is it?
- [35:59]
Senator Ted Cruz
January 3rd. Exact same date. January 3rd of 1990 is when the US government apprehended Noriega. You know, I actually, on January 3rd. A good friend of mine, Victoria Coates, who's the head of foreign policy at the Heritage foundation, she used to be my national security advisor for four years. She was President Trump's deputy national security adviser in the first term. Her daughter was getting married on January 3rd. So I was joking with Victoria. I'm like, wow, you really know how to celebrate your daughter's wedding. By apprehending a Latin American dictator and terrorist on the date of her wedding. Victoria was laughing at that. And she and I have worked for more than a decade fighting against Chavez and Maduro and the national security and drug dealing threat and terrorism threat that they pose to the United States. Do you know what January 3rd is? Just as a short personal aside?
- [36:56]
Ben Ferguson
What is that?
- [36:57]
Senator Ted Cruz
It's also the date that I met Heidi.
- [37:00]
Ben Ferguson
No way.
- [37:00]
Senator Ted Cruz
I met Heidi on January 3rd of 2000. So President Trump decided to apprehend Maduro on the 26th anniversary of when I met my wife, which was kind of an interesting. An interesting coincidence. The Noriega example is, I think, quite compelling. And what happened? Noriega was arrested. They brought him to the United States. They prosecuted him. He was convicted. He was sentenced to 40 years. And he died in prison. He ultimately died, but there was litigation over does the president have the authority to send in the military to arrest a corrupt Latin American dictator who's a drug dealer? And the conclusion of that litigation was, yes. That is for every pompous buffoon on TV saying there's no authority to do this. That is a Big, big problem.
- [37:56]
Ben Ferguson
I want to go back. Can we go back to Chuck Schumer and just, I think it was 2020 when he had something very interesting to say. Can we play that for everybody real quick?
- [38:07]
Senator Ted Cruz
Yep.
- [38:08]
Ben Ferguson
All right, take a listen. This is Chuck Schumer back in 2020. Listen carefully to the words that he has to say. You're going to get a kick out of this. He brags about all these things he wants to do or is doing, but his actions belie his words. Maybe the best metaphor was his claim to bring democracy to Venezuela. There was a big policy there. It flopped. If the policy was working, Juan Guaido.
- [38:33]
Senator Ted Cruz
Wouldn'T be in the balcony here.
- [38:35]
Ben Ferguson
He'd be in Venezuela.
- [38:36]
Senator Ted Cruz
He'd be sitting in the President's palace.
- [38:38]
Ben Ferguson
Or at least waging a fight to win. He's here and the President brags about his Venezuela policy. Give us a break. He hasn't brought an end to the Maduro regime. The Maduro regime is more powerful today.
- [38:51]
Senator Ted Cruz
And more entrenched today than it was.
- [38:53]
Ben Ferguson
When the President began. So here's my part about this that makes me laugh. Democrats. And there's a tweet that's very much like that. The same thing from Joe Biden.
- [39:02]
Senator Ted Cruz
Yeah.
- [39:03]
Ben Ferguson
They were angry that Trump hadn't, like, taken out Maduro. Now Trump takes out Maduro, and now they're angry at Trump for taking out Maduro. You cannot make it up.
- [39:11]
Senator Ted Cruz
Yeah. And listen carefully to what Schumer just said there. Give us a break. He hasn't ended the Maduro regime. So he was on the floor of the Senate. This is a speech where he was blasting Trump in 2020 for not having taken Maduro out. And now in the wake of President Trump having another enormously successful military operation, the last just a few hours in actual execution, and then it was over. And then Maduro was gone and he was on his way to the United States. Schumer and Kamala Harris and just about every Democrat you find are freaking out. And they're just being hypocrites. They just hate Trump. And just like they're defending every illegal immigrant, they're defending all of the gang bangers who are here. In this case, the Democrats are becoming the chief defender of Nicolas Maduro. But as I mentioned, on the legal front, if you look back to Noriega, front and center in terms of the litigation that will happen over this is that that in 1989, Bill Barr was the Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel. Now, Bill Barr, you'll recall, ended up becoming George Herbert Walker Bush's Attorney general, and then he was also AG for President Trump in the first term. Bill Barr at the time was leading what's called olc. And OLC is charged under federal law with writing authoritative opinions on what is, what is the Constitution, what is legal, what are the constraints on the executive branch. And by the way, there is a long history of incredibly important jurists and scholars being the heads of olc, including Antonin Scalia, he was the head of olc, including William Rehnquist, for whom I clerked, the Chief justice of the Supreme Court, he was the head of OLC under Nixon, including Chuck Cooper, my first boss when I practiced law. So OLC, they are typically, they are often U.S. supreme Court clerks themselves. They are constitutional experts. And Barr issued a detailed opinion making clear that the US Government had the authority to go and apprehend Noriega. And Barr said several things. So it's a detailed opinion, by the way, you can read the entire opinion. The opinion is public. But Barr concluded that, number one, the FBI statutory arrest authority, quote, authorizes extra, extra territorial investigations and arrests. So that's in the statute, existing US Law, the FBI can go abroad and arrest someone. And. And bar concluded the president can lawfully order that extra trial, extraterritorial arrest. And, and interestingly, bar. So one of the main arguments that Democrats in the media, although that's redundant because they're one in the same Democrats in the media, and by the way, law professors fall into that same camp. They're all clutching their pearls. And their main argument deals with the United nations charter and Article 2. 4 of the UN Charter prohibits the, quote, use of force against the territorial integrity of any state. And so their main argument is this violates the UN Charter. Well, what Barr concluded, and this is a quote. And by the way, it's not just Barr's opinion. This is a binding decision from OH LC that binds the executive unless and until it's overturned. So it is like a judicial opinion, but within the executive branch. Barr said that Article 2 to 4 of the UN Charter does not, quote, prohibit the executive, as a matter of domestic law, from authorizing forcible abductions. Put another way, quote, as a matter of domestic law, the executive has the power to authorize actions inconsistent with Article2.4 of the UN Charter. What does that mean? The UN Charter is not independently binding on the United States government. The Constitution is binding on the government. You know, back before I was in the Senate, what I did for a living is argued U.S. supreme Court cases. And the most consequential case that I argued before the Supreme Court was a case called Medellin vs Texas. I ended up winning 6, 3. It was an incredibly consequential case, but it dealt with the authority of the International Court of Justice, the World Court, the judicial arm of the UN to bind the US justice system. And, and, and, and I argued, representing the State of Texas successfully, the UN doesn't have the authority to do that. The World Court doesn't have the authority to do it. It is the U.S. constitution and it is U.S. laws. And if Congress wants to pass a law that can be binding, but Congress had not, in that, in Medellin, passed a law relevant to the issue there. Likewise here, the DOJ opinion was, even if the UN Charter says something different as a matter of US Constitutional law, the President can order this. And critically, the bar opinion also concluded that a U.S. arrest abroad, quote, in violation of foreign law, does not violate the Fourth Amendment. And to be clear, the bar opinion was litigated in the Noriega case, and Noriega stayed in jail. So he lost all of those claims. That is really powerful legal precedent and it is very closely on point.
- [44:41]
Ben Ferguson
You talk about the legal side of this. I want to ask, just real quickly, are there other legal aspects and challenges in this case that could come up as well?
- [44:50]
Senator Ted Cruz
Well, yes. And look, there are distinctions that I would expect Maduro to argue between this case and the Noriega case. In the Noriega case, the General assembly in Panama had actually declared war on the United States. Secondly, they had shot and killed a U.S. marine. And so those are both facts that leaned in favor of Noriega, the president being able to respond and respond militarily. In this instance, the government of Venezuela has not formally declared war on the United States, and they have not, they have not killed a marine or a service member. Although Maduro's drug trafficking has killed countless Americans. Countless Americans, thousands, and, you know, hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions, a massive number of Americans. Maduro is responsible for killing through drug trafficking. I will say also there is a second issue that will be litigated, which is what's called head of state immunity. So Maduro will go and argue that, that the actions he carried out were as the leader of Venezuela and as a general principle, US Government, US Courts don't impose criminal liability for the actions a head of state does. And, and Noriega was the de facto leader of Panama. But, but he was not elected by the people. In this case. The guy was recognized as a head of state. And so it's different from Noriega that will be litigated. I think the response to that is fine. That may have been he may have enjoyed that immunity back in 2017, 2018, but 2019, when he ignored the results of the election and seized power illegitimately, everyone agrees he was illegitimate. The United States, by the way, the Biden administration agreed that the first Trump administration agreed that most of the rest of the world has acknowledged that Maduro stayed in power illegitimately. One exception from head of state immunity is if the government invites you in in this case, I think you would say there's not an operational government that is legitimate, that he was, he was an illegitimate dictator, but that will be a subject of litigation. It would not surprise me to see that question go all the way to the U.S. supreme Court.
- [47:16]
Ben Ferguson
All right. And finally, I know I'm going to laugh because I know you're going to have an answer for this. Are there any other legal precedents that are going to come up in here as well as we wrap up the legal side of this?
- [47:25]
Senator Ted Cruz
There are. And there's a line of cases that's known as the Ker Frisbee doctrine, which, which says that, that unlawful abductions of criminals on foreign soil does not stop the criminal prosecution of those individuals in U.S. courts. And the lead case in this line of cases is a case called the United States versus Alvarez Machene. It was a 1992 ruling and the Supreme Court 6, 3 concluded that a Mexican national who was forcibly abducted in Mexico from his home, brought to the United States that he could be criminally prosecuted. It didn't matter if his being seized abroad was illegally. And so that line of cases, if Maduro were just a run of the mill drug dealer, it would be a very easy question that regardless of the circumstances of his capture, if he violated US Criminal laws, he could be prosecuted here. And so that line of cases I think will be relevant. And again, all the folks on TV claiming this is illegal are ignoring both the Constitution and Supreme Court precedent, not to mention the binding DOJ opinion from 1989.
- [48:41]
Ben Ferguson
Senator, we've run long on this legal issue which is so important. And I hope that everyone listening right now enjoyed it because I feel like I've learned a lot. I am hoping that everyone listening has learned a lot on the legal side of this. But there's still a lot that we've not gotten to cover yet, Senator, so we're gonna do that on Wednesday's show. Let's just talk a little bit of preview on that. There's a lot of people asking why was the wife arrested? What's next is Venezuela, what America's role should be there? Also what's next for other countries that have been warned, whether that's Mexico, Colombia, the list goes kind of on and on in this part of the world with narco terror and also the warnings to Iran that have come from this White House. All of these are connected. So let's kind of lay out what you're going to get on Wednesday.
- [49:20]
Senator Ted Cruz
Yeah, look, in terms of the wife, the answer to that is pretty simple. She also has been indicted. She's been indicted as a collaborator who's been actively participating in the criminal effort to be a drug dealer. And she's been actively part of it. And so she's separately indicted as another criminal defendant. And that's why she was arrested as well. What we're going to talk about on Wednesday is there are very significant geopolitical issues in terms of the rest of Latin America and in particular Cuba. Cuba is enormously dependent on Venezuela. Venezuela is enormously dependent on Cuba. And taking out Maduro puts the communist regime and Cuba in real jeopardy. And I think we could end up seeing, I think there's a real possibility that we see the communist government in Cuba fall. You also look at in Colombia, Petro is an anti American leftist who's a very close ally of Maduro's, very close ally of the communist government in Cuba. I think the Colombian leadership has got to be worried about this as well. So we're going to break down those geopolitical issues on Wednesday's podcast. But we're also going to talk about going forward, which is what President Trump did here was very important. He sent in a very targeted effort to go and arrest Maduro for this indictment. He succeeded incredibly well. The question is where do we go from here? And early on the administration has suggested that Maduro's vice president is likely to remain in charge of Venezuela. That is raising significant concerns. We're going to talk about that because Maduro's vice president is also a leftist America hating communist. And so that raises significant problems. One of the justifications for going in is that Maduro was illegitimate. And so I think it's important and we're going to talk about this on Wednesday, that there be a democratic election in Venezuela relatively quickly so that you have a legitimate, democratically elected leader. And I also think it is very important that America not get mired down in a long, extended occupation. I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think President Trump wants that to happen. But there are real risks. And we've seen that in the wake of Afghanistan, in the wake of Iraq, to having a long extended US Military presence on the ground. And so we're going to talk about the risks there. And also about Maria Corinna Machado, the leader of the opposition, what her role, Juan Guaido, what's going to happen next? All of that's going to be in Wednesday's podcast.
- [52:04]
Ben Ferguson
Yeah, it's going to be a really interesting one. Don't forget, download this show Monday, Wednesday, Friday, wherever you get your podcast at that subscribe or download button. And this pod we do most days now on video as well. So you can watch on Facebook or on YouTube. Grab that there as well in the center. I will see you back here on Wednesday morning for another really fun show.
- [52:23]
This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.