Weekly Review With Clay and Buck - Hour 2 - WI Sen. Ron Johnson

Summary

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show: Weekly Review With Clay and Buck - Featuring Senator Ron Johnson

Episode Release Date: June 14, 2025
Host: Clay Travis and Buck Sexton
Guest: Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin
Podcast: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show by iHeartPodcasts

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, hosts Clay Travis and Buck Sexton welcome Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin to discuss the intricacies of the recently passed "Big Beautiful Bill." The conversation delves deep into the implications of the bill on national spending, the burgeoning national debt, and the political maneuvering required to sustain fiscal responsibility in the United States.

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2. The Big Beautiful Bill and National Spending

2.1. Ron Johnson on National Debt and Spending Trends

Senator Johnson provides a comprehensive overview of the United States' escalating national debt, highlighting the sharp increase in government spending post-COVID-19. He states:

"We spent $4.4 trillion in 2019 pandemic hits, spent 6.5, and we never looked back. And I've probably said this on the show, I don't know of American family. If they got ill, somebody got ill, they had to borrow $50,000, pay for medical bills. If they got well the next year, they wouldn't keep borrowing $50,000 and keep spending at that level. That's exactly what we've done."
(04:07)

Johnson contrasts the current spending trajectory with historical precedents, illustrating how post-World War II America successfully dialed back expenditures, a practice not followed in recent years.

2.2. Fighting Inflation and Economic Challenges

The discussion touches upon the chronic debt crisis facing the nation, emphasizing the silent tax of inflation resulting from the devaluation of the dollar. Johnson explains:

"Clinton in '98. A dollar you held in 1998 is worth 51 cents... Since 2019, that dollar is now worth 80 cents. So again, that's permanent damage being done. That's the silent tax of inflation."
(28:13)

He underscores the long-term consequences of unchecked spending, including skyrocketing interest payments that crowd out other essential expenditures.

2.3. The Path Forward: Proposed Solutions and Audits

Senator Johnson advocates for a forensic audit of federal spending to identify inefficiencies and eliminate unnecessary expenditures. He elaborates:

"We need to forensically audit every line, every program like Doge has done... more than 2,000 lines of federal budget, more than 2,600 federal programs."
(07:05)

Johnson emphasizes the importance of returning to pre-pandemic spending levels and establishing a sustainable fiscal framework to prevent future economic instability.

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3. Political Dynamics Surrounding the Bill

3.1. Negotiations and Legislative Hurdles

The hosts and Senator Johnson discuss the political landscape surrounding the passage of the bill. With the Senate's current position and impending deadlines, questions arise about the feasibility of reconciling differences between the House and Senate versions of the bill.

"I think that's ambitious. I really think in the Senate, we're looking more before August recess."
(16:13)

Johnson remains optimistic but realistic about the challenges ahead, noting the need for bipartisan support and further reductions to align with fiscal conservative principles.

3.2. Republican Unity and Public Perception

Addressing internal Republican dynamics, Johnson acknowledges differing opinions within the party but asserts the necessity of unified action to address the national debt.

"Everyone loves the free federal money, right? They never look at their spending. On their issue is the problem, it's the other guy's spending."
(28:26)

He highlights the importance of educating both legislators and the public about the underlying fiscal issues to garner broader support for necessary spending cuts.

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4. Broader Economic Concerns: Interest Rates and the Housing Market

4.1. Impact of Rising Interest Rates

The conversation shifts to the repercussions of rising interest rates on the housing market and overall economic growth. Buck Sexton points out:

"30-year mortgage rates around 7%. If you were fortunate enough to lock in a two and a half or three, you're never moving for the rest of your life."
(29:27)

Senator Johnson responds by linking high interest rates to the chronic debt crisis, explaining how increased borrowing costs exacerbate the national debt and stifle economic growth.

"That's part of the chronic debt crisis."
(30:43)

4.2. The Risk of an Acute Debt Crisis

Johnson warns of the looming threat of an acute debt crisis, where failure to manage debt could lead to a collapse in bond markets and an unsustainable increase in interest payments.

"We've never done it. We've never done it. And even this process, you'll notice they've exempted most spending, most programs. They focused on a couple... it's easy to be a Democrat."
(35:03)

He stresses the urgency of addressing these issues to avoid catastrophic economic consequences in the future.

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5. Final Thoughts and Conclusion

As the episode concludes, the hosts and Senator Johnson reflect on the gravity of the national debt and the imperative for immediate action. Johnson reinforces the need for acknowledging the problem as the first step toward resolution.

"The first step in solving any problem is admitting you have one. And most people aren't. They're not even aware of it."
(35:32)

Clay Travis and Buck Sexton commend Johnson for his candid insights and commitment to fiscal responsibility, setting the stage for ongoing discussions about America's economic future.

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Notable Quotes:

• Senator Ron Johnson:

  "We've allowed that spending process to become the basis upon which all budget bills since COVID have been crafted."
  (03:59)

  "A dollar you held in 1998 is worth 51 cents... since 2019, that dollar is now worth 80 cents."
  (28:13)

  "We need to forensically audit every line, every program like Doge has done."
  (07:05)

• Clay Travis:

  "You're telling me this is politically realistic?"
  (10:49)

• Buck Sexton:

  "How dare you? You want to touch my Social Security. How dare you."
  (06:29)

---

This episode offers a thorough examination of the United States' fiscal challenges, emphasizing the critical need for responsible governance and strategic spending. Senator Ron Johnson's expert analysis provides listeners with a clear understanding of the stakes involved and the necessary steps to ensure a stable economic future.

Transcript

[Hannah Jewell]

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[Clay Travis]

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[Ron Johnson]

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[Ron Johnson]

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[Rodney Williams]

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[Ron Johnson]

Competition and lower prices for consumers.

[Christina Quinn]

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[Buck Sexton]

In our number two Clay Travis Buck Sexton show we're up here in Washington, D.C. visiting with many of our friends in Congress as the big beautiful bill wins. Wines, I guess, is the correct word, its way through the halls of Congress. It's in the Senate right now, and Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin is with us. And we are gonna do a deep dive on spending the bill. What should happen from his perspective and where we are headed. So for people out there that really want to dive into some of the nitty gritty about the economic policies in place, we wanted to bring you in because I would say you and Rand Paul, Senator, I think it's fair to say, are probably at the forefront of. We are spending way too much money. And your argument has been that essentially, and you correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, but I'm trying to lay it out and then let you make the case. Essentially, we have embedded the government spending that started with COVID that accelerated at a rapid level as the default basis for budgets going forward. Instead of, for instance, after World War II, drastically dialing back spending, we have allowed that spending process to become the basis upon which all budget bills since COVID have been crafted. Is that correct? How do we fix it if it is correct?

[Ron Johnson]

Well, first of all, welcome to this alternate universe.

[Clay Travis]

Thank you.

[Ron Johnson]

Washington, D.C. you know, both were former.

[Clay Travis]

Residents here, so we're like reformed swamp creatures.

[Ron Johnson]

You were smart enough to move out, and I come here part time. But no, I mean, you. You stated the case pretty well. We spent $4.4 trillion in 2019 pandemic hits, spent 6.5, and we never looked back. And I've probably said this on the show, I don't know of American family. If they got ill, somebody got ill, they had to borrow $50,000, pay for medical bills. If they got well the next year, they wouldn't keep borrowing $50,000 and keep spending at that level. That's exactly what we've done. So 4.4 this year, we'll spend over 7 trillion. That's a 58% increase. Next year, about 7.3. And I know these are a lot of numbers, but that's why I do charts.

[Buck Sexton]

Yep.

[Ron Johnson]

And you know what's. What's kind of depressing about my charts is it lays out a pretty depressing reality. Let me throw some more numbers. Under The Bush administration, eight years, they average deficits of $250 billion a year. Obama came in his first four years, 1.3 trillion. That sparked the Tea Party movement. That's why I came into town. The Tea Party movement had an impact. And those deficits in his last term were $550 billion. Trump comes into office, had to do deals with Democrats. His average deficit was 810. Then Covid hit one year, $303.1 trillion deficit. And again with responsible leaders like we had in World War II. Okay, pandemic's over. Time to return to pre pandemic levels. It's not what Biden did. Biden continued to spend again this year about 7 trillion. His average deficit for four years was 1.9 trillion.

[Clay Travis]

Okay, wait, so let's, let's jump in right there because I think that's very important and we have the charts to work with. But all of our people all across the country are, we're, they're trying to visualize these numbers as we go where. Yeah, he's holding it up. I wish we had. Oh, we get really, some of the really small. But tell me this, where is the additional money going? Because here's what happens every time we talk about cutting. And I also have to bring up some of the objections to the objections to the big beautiful bill. And I want you to address those in a second. But first, anytime we talk about cutting, we could light up the phones for three hours straight here. How dare you? You want to touch my Social Security. How dare you. You want to touch my Medicare. Well, hold on a second. If those things weren't being touched at 800 billion or a trillion a year, what, where's the extra trillion dollars, give or take? That now is the post pandemic spending norm. What's that money going?

[Ron Johnson]

It's literally across the board. And that's what I've laid out with my pre pandemic levels of spending that analys you take actual total outlays, you exclude Social Security, Medicare and interest, spend what you need to spend, and then you plus up all those other outlays by population growth, inflation, and if you do that for 2019, for example, this year you'd be spending 6.5 versus the 7. You know, if you go back to Clinton or Obama, you'd be spending 5.5 to 6.2. Okay, so again, it's across the board, which is why one of the solutions is we need to forensically audit every line, every program like Doge has done.

[Clay Travis]

Okay, so you're telling me then that there is, you know, of, of that spending increase. If it's coming from these, is it not? And you're not going to touch it. Sounds to me like you wouldn't touch the non discretionary spending Right. Because that's, that's, you're taking Medicare, Social Security and interest. You see, that's right.

[Ron Johnson]

That's part of mandatory. But you also have Medicaid and we've got to fix the Obamacare portion of that. Get a trillion dollars of other mandatory spending.

[Clay Travis]

This is what I mean, where's that other trillion dollars? That's, it's, it's Medicaid and then just everything else.

[Ron Johnson]

So what they've done over years, because nobody knows they're doing this because you have these omnibus spending bills and just magically they move discretionary spending into the mandatory accounts. So during COVID that other mandatory, not Social Security, Medicare or even Medicaid, I think went up, topped out about $2.2 trillion. In 2019 was 642 billion, went to 2.2. It's been ramping down. Last year, I think it was 1.3 trillion. This year would be about a trillion. That's a trillion dollars in discretionary spending is about 1.7.

[Clay Travis]

You were a business guy. Trump was and still is in many ways a business guy. When you say this to him, what does he say? Because he wants this thing passed with, with gusto. He wants this big, beautiful bill. He believes. I'm sure you've talked to him about these numbers, right? I'm sure you talked about this.

[Ron Johnson]

I was in the White House last Wednesday and when my time to talk, I pulled out my chart. By the way, I've seen your last 10 appearances. You're too negative, Ron.

[Buck Sexton]

One of your charts saved the President's life. So you're. So this is a different chart than yes.

[Clay Travis]

Actually saved his life. Yes.

[Ron Johnson]

So one chart saved the President's life. I'm hoping this one saves America.

[Buck Sexton]

Okay, so what? So he says what? Because the argument here is that they would like to get this bill passed by July 4th. On the Senate side, it's already passed the House side. Where are we? Do you think that's likely? How does this get reconciled? What? How, how does, how does the Senate. Because it's not just you, it's Rand Paul. It's others that have this perspective, too. Not a huge majority. How does this get solved?

[Ron Johnson]

So again, just so he told me I was being too negative and I took that to heart. I have been pretty.

[Clay Travis]

You're generally a very jolly fellow. I will say you're smile on my face.

[Ron Johnson]

Okay. But you got to lay out the reality. So I had a great meeting just a couple hours ago with Vice President Vance and Kevin Hassett. And that was kind of what we arranged the White House. Okay, let's get on the same page. You know, I worked all weekend long. I wrote this report myself. These are all my own charts. I'm the accountant here. Right. But we're going to let Kevin Hassan, his economic team go through these. You know, check out the numbers. I'm not sure when we release this, but that's the first thing you have to get on the same page. And I told the President of the White House is the first step in solving any problem. So you have to admit you have one. So again, I have been too negative because I've been focusing on the macro problem and I haven't been talking as positively as I should on all the good things in the big beautiful bill, because there are a lot of good things. We fund the border, we fund defense. This House did a pretty good job of identifying about $1.5 trillion in spending reduction. That's good. We extend current tax law, we take an automatic tax increase off the table, we avoid default. Okay, those are all great things. My only point, and I'm sorry I have to make, just isn't enough. Okay, so what I've been asking for always is a commitment to a, to return to a reasonable pre pandemic level spending and a process to achieve and maintain it. Now I'm throwing into the method because one and done won't work. I mean this is great progress that we'd be making with the one big beautiful bill. I don't deny that, but it doesn't solve the problem. So I'm looking for a forcing mechanism so we come back in this Congress, not wait till winning an election.

[Clay Travis]

You're telling me this is politically realistic? Because that's the next question is because this is what's being said. And you know, Stephen Miller's a very smart guy in this White House. He's been out there making the case that the objections to this are more about people making a philosophical argument than operating within the reality of what is possible. And that if you don't do it this way, you're gonna have to work with Democrats down the line who don't wanna work with you. So can you address that?

[Ron Johnson]

Yeah, again, we can use another reconciliation process using the fiscal 2026 budget. I have gotten just basically positive feedback from President Trump's ardent supporters and also my supporters. Again, Republicans, we realize we have a massive debt and deficit problem.

[Clay Travis]

Are there some Republicans who won't go along with what you want to do here? Is that, I mean, where's seems so.

[Ron Johnson]

Logical to us, I would say part of it is marketing. Okay. The House was all focused on getting this thing done and you know, they pulled, literally they pulled $1.5 trillion out of the air. It really wasn't in context. You know, when I saw that I said, you guys have set the bar way too low. Okay, we need trillions of dollars in long term to get this thing done. But then they assigned more than half of that to enc the committee. All they can do is Medicaid. So they just open themselves up. You're gonna slash Medicaid and you didn't make the case. You realize that what we're trying to do is fix the Obamacare portion of Medicaid called Medicaid expansion that pays a. When a state puts a buck in for a single childless, you know, working age, able bodied adult, the federal government puts a nine bucks versus a dollar the state puts in for a disabled child. Federal government kicks in $1.33. That has led to all kinds of distortions. There's a great article in the Wall Street Journal. A father of a 17 year old autistic child can't get home care for 10 years because he's being crowded out by single adults.

[Clay Travis]

That should be worked on welfare. Medicaid is just a big giant welfare.

[Ron Johnson]

And so you literally are putting at risk the benefits for the people that we want to help both in Medicare and in Medicaid. So you got to root out these things. But you have to make the case and you can't make it in five months. So the game plan here, so as I was talking to vice President is okay. It's going to take time. I propose a budget review panel, hire forensic auditors, take the Doge team, transfer them over this process a House, a Senate, a White House effort to forensically audit every all more than 2,000 lines of federal budget, more than 2,600 federal programs. We've never done it. We've never done it. And even this process, you'll notice they've exempted most spending, most programs. They focused on a couple. They get slaughtered in the public opinion because Democrats it's easy pickings for them because they have the press behind them. I mentioned on the Sunday shows it's so easy to be a Democrat. You spend, you mortgage your kids future, you never be held accountable by the media. It's hard doing what we're trying to do. The good news for your listeners is that we're all pretty much on the same page. We want to fix this problem. We just are dealing with something that's very difficult to do.

[Buck Sexton]

What's timing local like? And how significant is timing from your perspective? Because the White House has said they'd like to have this done in the Senate by July 4th. We know that we don't have a very big majority in the House. So Mike Johnson, speaker, is going to have to go back and work through whatever conciliation bill is going to come out. What to you does this timeframe look like?

[Ron Johnson]

Well, I think most people thought the House, whatever the House passed, the Senate would water down. That means the absence is true. I think we're going to make it more conservative. I think we're going to be doing even more reductions in terms of spending. And again, I've got colleagues that are demanding it, so.

[Buck Sexton]

And there's some people who agree with you. Chip Roy, for instance, a friend of ours on the House side wants way more spending. Right. I mean, this was an issue for Mike.

[Clay Travis]

Spending cuts.

[Ron Johnson]

Yeah. I mean, I mean, they voted for it because they kicked can over the House or the Senate, hoping we'd make it more conservative.

[Clay Travis]

So the part that you talk about the marketing, I'm just going to say this. You know, we've had Senator Rand Paul on the show, we've talked to him, we've heard him out on this and so many issues. And a lot of the time I just think he's making great arguments. But in this moment, to talk about how there's too much money going to the border after 10 million illegals came in under the Obama, I mean, Biden administration, and to say that that's where we're gonna, we're gonna start to make the savings happen in a meaningful way, even if numerically you could start to make. I just think it's malpractice because people. And this is about saving the country and, you know, just to save money when you're trying to save the country, I think people view the urgency of the border and the illegal immigration issue as, you know, the policy equivalent of a war, meaning if we don't do this thing right, we don't have the same America going forward.

[Ron Johnson]

Well, I'm a really frugal guy and I don't mind sharpening my pencil on any spending. He is chairman of Homeland Security. He should be doing oversight on this again. In the first administration, we spent $6.6 billion to build 450 miles of Wall Street. Now they're asking 46 and a half million billion just for the Wall. That's going to.

[Clay Travis]

Well, we didn't have Enough money to finish the wall, though. I remember that was a problem.

[Ron Johnson]

But, but there's not, there's not 3,000 or 4,000 miles to have to be built. So again, I think he's got a wall guy. He's, he's asking the question, can you.

[Buck Sexton]

Stay with us a little?

[Ron Johnson]

Absolutely.

[Buck Sexton]

Because there's some more question. But quickly as. And then Bucks got to do a Read here. Timeframe, July 4th, any chance in your mind?

[Ron Johnson]

I think that's. I think that's ambitious. I think, I really think in the Senate, we're looking more before August recess.

[Buck Sexton]

Before August recess. And it has to be done before August recess.

[Ron Johnson]

You know, Destiny is going to expire sometime mid August to late September. So that's part of the pressure. I mean, that's part what they do. One of the reasons they bundle this all up is, yeah, I don't want to see taxes increase. I don't want to default on the debt. So it just puts pressure on us. So I've been very upfront. Nobody should be surprised. I wrote my first column on reasonable pre pandemic level spending and options to do it in the Wall street journal on January 1st. So again, I've been, I've been beating this drum for a while.

[Clay Travis]

Ron Johnson in the hot seat. He doesn't like it hot. He prefers it cold. He's from Wisconsin. But we'll keep going. Look, we're not dealing with this debt. You know it, I know it. Which means that there's those long term issues of governance and issues with the dollar, and owning gold is just one way to prepare for that uncertain future. I've been a gold guy for over a decade. My dad gave me my first gold coin when I was in my 20s. He said, you know what? He's a big gold believer. And I've been a big gold believer ever since. I've been building up my gold reserves. And, man, the price of gold has seen great appreciation in just the past year, up 40%. I'm also a big history guy. Clay likes to refer to us as history nerds. What? Has there ever been a time when there's been a civilization in society that said, you know what? You know what? I don't need gold. No value in that. Yeah, there's a reason for this, all right? And that's why I think you should call the Birch Gold Group. That's who I use. Trump administration's doing a lot to try to right the ship, but they're not going to do it all. And there's a lot more that we have to look at in the future in terms of the spending. Gold makes sense. And by the way, you can invest in gold or you could just have part of your savings in a gold IRA or 401k. Very solid moves. One of the best ways to protect your savings out there and to diversify with Birch Gold's help. Text my name Buck to 989898 I just bought some more gold myself bars and coins about two months ago. Text Buck to 989898 Birchgold will send you a free info kit on gold. No obligation, just useful information. Again, text my name Buck to 989898 or go to this website birchgold.com Buck.

[Hannah Jewell]

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[Christina Quinn]

And here we have a specimen from the early 2000s, a legacy investing platform. Please don't touch the exhibit folks. It could crash. Ready to step out of the Financial history [e-mail] you can invest in almost everything stocks, bonds, options and more. You could even put your cash to work at an industry leading 4.1% APY. Leave your clunky, outdated platform behind. Go to public.com and fund your account in five minutes or less. Paid for by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Full [e-mail] disclosures there's an efficient way.

[Hannah Jewell]

To get caught up on a lot of news. It's called the seven from the Washington Post. It's a newsletter and podcast. Whether you're reading or hit play, you get seven stories you need to know and you can consume it all in just a few minutes. The 7 is out every weekday morning by 7:00am Eastern. I'm Hannah Jewell. I'm one of the writers and I host the show Find the seven Podcast. Wherever you're listening, the newsletter link is waiting for you in the show notes.

[Rodney Williams]

I'm Rodney Williams. And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the Wealth Break. Let's be honest, building wealth doesn't look the same for everyone. It's not just about saving. It's about investing. It's about navigating systems that weren't built for you, embracing your hustle and relying on your community to create something bigger. And that's exactly why we created the wealthbreak. We made something different, something more human. It's not just another financial podcast. It's a conversation about real life, real struggles and real wins. We're here to talk about the journey. You're hearing from people who've broken barriers, found creative ways to succeed and learn to build wealth on their terms. Whether it's the first time homeowner, a gig worker, or someone turning a side hustle into a six figure business, we're bringing you their stories. And we're not stopping at success stories. We're breaking down the realities, like what it means to take risk, how to navigate failure, and why resilience matters. Because wealth isn't about money. It's about creating a life where you can thrive and help others to do the same. So if you're ready for a podcast as much as about people as it is about money, you're in the right place. Listen to the Wealth Brave podcast on the iHeartRadio app.

[Buck Sexton]

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[Clay Travis]

From Visa USA Inc. We're right here in D.C. close to Capitol Hill, close to the White House with Senator Ron Johnson in studio. Senator, we've only got about a minute change here before we get on the next break and then we'll keep you through to talk more about this topic. But your reaction as somebody who in your own home state, of course, what happened in Kenosha, some of those visuals and images I think reminds people of some of the rioting we're seeing in Los Angeles. What do you think about how the president's handled this so far? And what are the American people seeing in Southern California?

[Ron Johnson]

Was was it Yogi Berra said it's deja vu all over again?

[Buck Sexton]

Yes.

[Ron Johnson]

Now this is exactly what Democrat governance did in Wisconsin. He had governor evers President Trump offered him the National Guard. He refused. It allowed Kenosha to burn for a couple days. A couple people got killed as a result. Now they're doing the same thing here. Governor Evers actually signed a letter with the other Democrat governors supporting Newsom and saying that Trump's making the wrong decision. No, Trump is making the absolute right decision. What we found out in Kenosha is once you had the manpower of the National Guard, the violence ended. And that's the whole point. And what's even more unconscionable about this is the Democrats are refusing to protect law enforcement. I mean, these guys put their life on the line. They're willing to serve and sacrifice. And you've got Democrat politicians who are inciting the protests and the violence. And what I want to do is I want a thorough investigation. I hope Cash and I hope Pam Bondi are on this. Who is financing this? This is their playbook. This is the playbook from summer of 2020. They're just implementing it a lot sooner in this Trump administration. Again, this isn't springing up just by accident.

[Clay Travis]

Well, we'll get into this a little bit more here coming up in a second. Also want to take some of your calls, 800-282-2882. And if you get us a quick talk back, maybe we can even play it for Senator Johnson on the air. You can get a question in to the senator yourself. You know, I know that Father's Day is coming up soon. Even moms and dads have the same instincts that Carrie and I have, which is protecting your children at any cost. And, you know, especially under your own roof. It is up to you to do that. Right. I want you to consider products from Sabre, the number one pepper spray brand trusted by law enforcement. Sabre is spelled S A B R E and their website is sabreradio.com that's S A B R E saberradio.com Clay's wife, my wife, they both like having non lethal options to defend themselves at home and when they're out and about. That includes, of course, the pepper sprays and pepper gels from Sabre, but also the pepper projectile launcher. This is shaped like a pistol rifle and it sends out a pepper projectile that goes much longer than you think and stops the threat. Clay and I have tried this thing out. It's incredible. Sabre has the best in class. Go to sabre radio.com sabers a b r e radio.com or call 844-824-SAF.

[Buck Sexton]

Hey Buck, one of my kids called me an unk the other day.

[Clay Travis]

An unk?

[Buck Sexton]

Yep. Slaying, evidently. For not being hip, being an old dude.

[Clay Travis]

So how do we un unk you?

[Buck Sexton]

Get more people to subscribe to our YouTube channel. At least that's what my kids tell me.

[Clay Travis]

That's simple enough. Just search the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton show and hit the subscribe button.

[Buck Sexton]

Takes less than five seconds to help. Un unk me.

[Clay Travis]

Do it for Clay, do it for freedom, and get great content while you're there. The Clay Travis and buck Sexton Show YouTube channel.

[Buck Sexton]

We've got Senator Ron Johnson in here. We love having him on. I just want to ask you this question because there's no Democrats who have any basic business knowledge. I mean, it's unfortunate. It used to not be that way. But when you've got people like AOC running around shutting down back in the day, the Amazon headquarters, not understanding how tax credits work, and it's really economic illiteracy on many different levels. When you dive into the budget particulars, how many. And it could be Democrats, Republicans. How conversant do you think in detail the average United States senator and congressperson is in understanding how the US Budget works and where the money goes? I mean, did you expect to find way more knowledge before you got into politics? Because I'll be honest, before Buck and I started doing this show, I had a lot more faith in the knowledge of the average politician than I do today.

[Clay Travis]

I had to tell Clay there was no Santa Claus.

[Ron Johnson]

So I think there's a lot of knowledge in that narrow areas that they focus on. You know, if you're Appropriations, if you're chairman of Appropriations Subcommittee, you know that subcommittee function pretty well. I'll tell you a story about three years ago. This is in the pandemic and you know, we're spending these massive amounts and McConnell's doing some icky omnibus deal with Schumer. All of a sudden we're, we're for earmarks Republicans. We've got a res. You know, that's part of our conference resolution. We're not gonna accept earmarks. All of a sudden we were. So I got up, got up in front of my Republican colleagues, said, hey, anybody know how much we spent last year? Dead silence. Nobody. Nobody knew. That's crazy because we never talk about it. We're the largest financial Andy in the world. All we appropriate is about 25% of the budget, about 1.7 trillion out of the 7 trillion that we're going to spend. So nobody knew. I went out to the Washington media. They're the watchdogs, right? Ask them the same question. They said, well, it was over a trillion dollars. Now that's just a switch.

[Clay Travis]

Now we talk about this when the tea. So I started in media when the Tea Party got, got rolling.

[Ron Johnson]

I'm Tea Party right now. I'm still more Tea Party than Republican.

[Clay Travis]

And, and I just remember that there was this, this whole movement. And, and I think that, I think the debt then was like 9, 10.

[Ron Johnson]

Yeah, it was 9. When I got here, 11. It was 14. Trillion.

[Clay Travis]

Yeah, yeah. So let's, but let's say it's, you know, low double digits, trillions of dollars. Now it's going on. It's going on.

[Ron Johnson]

Yeah.

[Clay Travis]

So.

[Ron Johnson]

And it's projected to hit about 60 in 10 years.

[Clay Travis]

So clearly the math, the math is a problem here. But I feel like one of the frustrations we have is that we talk about this and everybody wants to fix it, but nobody wants to do the things in order to fix it because, you know, it's like telling someone to go on a diet. It's more fun to just eat chocolate cake every day and assume somebody else is going to do the work for you. So I don't know, I don't know how we get people to get dialed in on this and understand that if you just keep spending because it feels good to spend, we're never going to fix the problem.

[Ron Johnson]

Well, inside the conference, I'm basically the, the kid that says the emperor has no clothes. I mean, I, I just relentlessly show them my charts to the point they're, you know, you know, ad nauseam.

[Buck Sexton]

Did they.

[Ron Johnson]

I think I'm having some impact. I think now, now they all know we're spending about $7 trillion.

[Clay Travis]

To the people who vote for you in Wisconsin, do you think that they really want you to tackle this problem or does everyone just want to say tackle it, but don't touch anything that I like. That's the case. Yeah, we can't fix anything.

[Ron Johnson]

I've got some really solid conservatives come into my office and see. Yeah, but Senator, this is really, this isn't really spending. This is an investment. So that's our problem. Everybody loves the free federal money, right? They never look at their spending. On their issue is the problem, it's the other guy's spending. Okay. And there's not a real constituency. There's not public pressure to get this under control. Again, I would have thought, again, I sprang out the Tea Party movement. I literally did parades in 2010 going, this a fight for freedom. We're mortgaging our children's future. It's wrong, it's immoral, it's got to stop. That was my campaign pledge. But it hasn't blown up in our face. I will say this though. We haven't hit an acute debt crisis. We've been living with a chronic debt crisis now for decades. It's called the devaluation of the dollar. I laid out these pre pandemic spending options. Clinton in 98. A dollar you held in 1998 is worth 51 cents.

[Buck Sexton]

That's a crazy stat. I think for most people out there. Basically you've lost half the value of the dollar and to a certain extent cryptocurrency, everybo of feels it in that.

[Ron Johnson]

Arena since 2019, that dollar is now worth 80 cents. So again, that's permanent damage being done. That's the silent tax of inflation. That's how we are managing this right now. Why it hasn't blown up in our face. But again, I would consider that a chronic debt crisis. What we're trying to avoid is an acute one where all of a sudden you have failure of bond auctions and we can't borrow money. And now all of a sudden over the next 10 years, CBO, we're going to spend $14 trillion on interest. The 89 trillion will spend 14 is on interest.

[Buck Sexton]

I would submit that a lot of people are feeling it because mortgage rates have just not come back down. Right. If you're out there listening to us right now, 30 year mortgage rates around 7%. If you were fortunate enough to lock in a two and a half or three, you're never moving for the rest of your life. I mean there's a lot of people out there that are just. And it's completely flummoxed the housing market because people should be moving. They have new kids, they got bigger families, their kids are going off to college, leaving the house and they're not going to sell because you got a two and a half or eight or you got a three as opposed to guys and gals out there right now getting married, they're looking around 7% interest is historically may not be high, but compared to the two and a half and how quickly it went up, I don't know that we've ever seen anything like it.

[Ron Johnson]

And that's part of the chronic debt crisis. Yeah, okay.

[Buck Sexton]

That's right.

[Ron Johnson]

Right now, according to CBO, we'll be paying about 3.4% interest on our debt over the next 10 years. But the average 50 year average for the interest rate we paid in debt is over 5%. So if you start every percent that you increase, that adds, you know, $370 billion to our debt this year. Yeah, okay, so that's a massive amount. It's crowding out other spending. And again, if you hit a debt crisis where now creditors just say, we're not going to loan you money even at a high interest rate, you're going to spend, you're going to have to service that debt. We're going to have to roll over $9 trillion of our national debt this year. Nine trillion of the 37 trillion. We've got to refinance.

[Clay Travis]

Senator, you're bumming me out a little. No, I'm bumming me out.

[Ron Johnson]

I'm not the most. I'm not the most.

[Buck Sexton]

But I will, I will say, so negative. Let me say this. If you're not able to see him on video, you do have a sort of a happy warrior visage face wise. Because otherwise I think you probably would be so dour that everybody being with.

[Clay Travis]

His charge, he's a little Captain Womp Womp right now. So let's just take a moment here.

[Ron Johnson]

By the way, that's what, that's why I agree with President Trump when he said, Ron, you're so negative. Yeah, I know. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[Clay Travis]

Trump's. I'm trying to make up like, Ron, you're wamp whomping all over the place. Ron, you're making me sad. But what about AI growth and the brilliance of the American economy starting to, at least on its own, basically not entirely grow out of this because the numbers don't support that, but at least make it more sustainable longer term. Do you, you know, is technology going to save us? Senator Johnson?

[Ron Johnson]

So I think possibly, you know, there's a great story. Milton Friedman was in China and they were building this big canal and everybody had shovels and they said, why aren't you using equipment so well, this is a jobs program. At what point Milton Friedman said, well, why don't you give them spoons? So no. Productivity can make massive progress and AI has got.

[Clay Travis]

Do we care about it that much if we robot servants doing all of our cooking and cleaning and everything for us? I will say I've seen the Jetsons.

[Ron Johnson]

Be very cautious of AI. I learned that as I'm putting my report together. I use AI a lot and it's got great tool. But, but as my chief of staff said, it is often confidently wrong. And I found that out repeatedly in this process.

[Buck Sexton]

By the way, being confidently wrong is Kind of the business you're in. Well, not you specifically accepted, but yeah, but politicians in general are not coffee today. Politicians in general are not known for lacking confidence in being wrong. Especially as you well know, everything Covid that all this spiraled out of. So yeah, Buck asked the question. I think this is the big picture maybe question we can finish with you on. And we appreciate all the time and we know there's tons of people out there that have wanted us to do a deep dive on this. The growth rate. The number one most important thing that could happen to make everybody the rising tide lift all boats is our economy has to get growing faster. You've run the numbers. We haven't had 4% growth since the 1950s. Now, maybe Buck's right and I'd love for the AI revolution to lead to exponential growth.

[Clay Travis]

This is a long bomb into the end zone theory, but maybe somebody catches it.

[Buck Sexton]

Now. It's a very positive like way of looking at things. And there are a lot of CEOs, including some of the ones that we interact with that are incredibly optimistic on this. But I do think history matters here. When's the last time we had 4% growth in this country?

[Ron Johnson]

In the 60s?

[Buck Sexton]

1960S.

[Ron Johnson]

Yeah. Then we had 3% growth in the 70s, 80s, 90s, the dot com revolution. But since the turn of the century, we've averaged 2.2% growth. And Reinhart and Rogoff wrote about this. This time is different. It's not once you reach a certain threshold of debt to GDP level. First of all, government is sucking down all that money out of the private sector. Risk takers can't borrow money. So that has a negative impact on growth. Again, AI may be a spark that could overcome all this, but we could be in that death spiral right now. That's my concern.

[Clay Travis]

We're like, all right, great talk.

[Ron Johnson]

I said debt. I said debt.

[Clay Travis]

Spiral.

[Buck Sexton]

I thought, I don't, I don't, I.

[Ron Johnson]

Don'T see it well enough. No.

[Clay Travis]

Well, I guess again, Mr. Rogers hitting the button.

[Ron Johnson]

We're seeing what the bond markets are doing. We can't control long term interest rates. That's going to be up to our creditors. If they look at us as not serious about this. I think the bond markets have been telling that they're going to demand a higher and higher interest rate to refinance that $9 trillion. That takes more of the money out of what we can spend on other things as well. So again, this is. We're not in a good position right now. We're simply not I mean, that's my whole point is let's address this problem. The first step in solving any problem is admitting you have one. And most people aren't. They're not even aware of it. They're just whistling by the graveyard.

[Buck Sexton]

I'm picturing you right now when your kids come home from college and you've got the credit card bill in front of you and it's like dad is just sitting down in front of you and he's like, I just, you know, you got the daughter, you got the son. They don't understand basic economics. And you're just like, I don't even understand how you could have spent this money. That's the way. I feel like you're looking at the federal government on a day to day basis. You're like, dad, who's looking at this and just saying this? None of this. A Jet Ski.

[Ron Johnson]

Yeah, I've said this.

[Buck Sexton]

What?

[Ron Johnson]

At the bar, it's easy to be the parent, says, hey, we're gonna go to Disney World. It's really hard to be the parent, says, but we can't afford it. You know, we're already in.

[Clay Travis]

Well, the other thing, Senator, now I'm gonna really bum everybody out. Everybody thinks they're the parent that says we can't afford Disney World this year. But everybody wants to say, my kids are going to Disney World. So that's the tough part of American politics. Senator Johnson of Wisconsin, always a pleasure to hang with you, sir. Thanks for being here with us in studio.

[Ron Johnson]

Thanks for having me in.

[Buck Sexton]

Look, I want to tell you, Rapid Radios makes modern day. Well, I'm still laughing about the dad analogy. That is perfect for you. You should, when you run for reelection next time you should just do ads where you, you pretend to be a dad looking at the, at the expenses of your kids because I think everybody in Wisconsin is going to recognize with that. But, but Rapid Radios, they're convenient, they're easy to use, no setup required. Pull them out of the box, push a, push a button and it's a one touch connection. Perfect for busy families. Rapid Radios, also great for young kids. I've got a 10 year old, we don't want to give him a cell phone, but he's running around in the neighborhood. He's playing wiffle ball with his friends, he's playing football with his friends. We can stay in touch with him also. Five days without needing a charge. They're super easy, they're reliable if you got thunderstorms, if you got hurricane season, which we're in now, now if you just want to protect your family with having an additional way to be able to get communication, these guys are amazing. Check them out. Rapidradios.com 60% off free UPS shipping from Michigan. Use code radio for an extra 5% off. That's Rapidradios.com code radio great asset to make your family a little bit safer than they otherwise would be. Trust them. Nationwide radio communication device to keep tabs on everybody. Rapidradios.com code radio nearly 90% of kids.

[Hannah Jewell]

Who vape say flavors are why they do it. A lot of the flavors that I've heard are like peach, mango, watermelon. It makes it seem like more childlike and innocent. Oh, if I try this once, it won't be that much of a problem. But then eventually it becomes a problem. It's time to restrict the sale of flavored tobacco products in Oregon and protect our kids from nicotine addiction. Urge lawmakers to Pass Senate Bill 702A. Take action at flavorshookoregonkids.org paid for by the Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids Action Fund.

[Christina Quinn]

You know what's great about your investment account? With the big guys, it's actually a time machine. Log in and zoom. Welcome back to 1999. It's time for an upgrade. At public.com you can invest in almost everything. Stocks, bonds, options and more. You can even put your cash to work at an industry leading 4.1% APY. Leave your clunky, outdated platform behind. @Public.com Go to Public.com and fund your account in five minutes or less. Pay for by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Full disclosures at public.com disclosures.

[Clay Travis]

You don't know me yet, but I.

[Buck Sexton]

Bet we have something in common. We all wish we were better functioning humans.

[Clay Travis]

Maybe figure out how to sleep better, have more meaningful relationships, cook more that search for practical knowledge. It's my job at the Washington Post. I host a podcast called Try this. Every episode is like an audio class and we learn together.

[Christina Quinn]

I'm Christina Quinn.

[Buck Sexton]

Now you know me.

[Clay Travis]

Check out Try this wherever you're listening.

[Rodney Williams]

I'm Rodney Williams. And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the Wealth Break. Let's be honest. Building wealth doesn't look the same for everyone. It's not just about saving. It's about investing. It's about navigating systems that weren't built for you, embracing your hustle and relying on your community to create something bigger. And that's exactly why we created the wealth break. We made something different, something more human. It's not just another financial podcast. It's a conversation about real life, real struggles and real wins. We're here to talk about the journey. You're hearing from people who've broken barriers, found creative ways to succeed, and learn to build wealth on their terms. Whether it's the first time homeowner, a gig worker, or someone turning a side hustle into a six figure business, we're bringing you their stories. And we're not stopping at success stories. We're breaking down the realities like what it means to take risk, how to navigate failure, and why resilience matters. Because wealth isn't about money. It's about creating a life where you can thrive and help others to do the same. So if you're ready for a podcast as much as about people as it is about money, you're in the right place. Listen to the Wealth Break podcast on the iHeartRadio app.

[Buck Sexton]

With the Verizon Visa card, you can win by getting 4% in rewards on the items you pick up all the time, including grocery store purchases, gas, dining out and and even products from Verizon. With the Verizon Visa card, buying what you need gets you rewards you actually want. Apply [e-mail] Verizon Visa card application required. Subject to credit approval. Must be a Verizon mobile account owner or manager or FIOS account owner. See verizon.com Verizon Visa card for terms and restrictions. The Verizon Visa signature card is issued by Synchrony bank pursuant to a license.

[Clay Travis]

From Visa USA Inc. Hope you all enjoyed that. Walk into the financial abyss with Senator Ron Johnson and he's like, guys, the whole country may collapse, but it's gonna be okay. No, it's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. Look, the big beautiful bill. It's big. It's beautiful. We're looking forward to talking to more folks here in D.C. about all the great things. And everyone admits there are many, many great things in it. And I think that passing it is. I think it's the right move and I think that there's gonna be a lot that this administration is gonna be putting in motion that should be or can fully be accounted for right now, Clay, that will affect the revenue and debt side of things very positively. For example, the money that's coming in the hundreds of billions that's going to come in on tariffs and the admission recently that Chinese producers are actually going to have to eat a lot of the costs of the tariffs. These are all things that are going into the pot Things that are going to be on the, on the positive side of a ledger for us financially. And you know, I, I did mention that you had had your coffee, by the way. Crockettcoffee.com we gotta make sure that we keep that with us on the road at all times. Go to crockettcoffee.com it's absolutely delicious stuff. It's fantastic. 10% of the profits goes to Tunnel the Towers Foundation. I've been introducing people to our mushroom blend which they think is very interesting. It's very, it's unique, it's earthy. If you've never tried it, it's worth a shot. But for your daily coffee needs, CrockatCoffee.com is where you want to go.

[Buck Sexton]

Yeah, it's fantastic. Use code book. You get an autographed copy of the most recent book. You've got one coming out in January, I've got one coming out in November. So there's going to be some new books that are coming out there that we actually wrote and we are going.

[Clay Travis]

To be going down. We're just figuring out. But we're going to be heading down to San Antonio in the summer, which is when I hear is the best time to go to work on your heat tolerance when it's 180 degrees.

[Buck Sexton]

We're going to come down and visit the Alamo. Obviously naming a Crockett coffee after one of the Alamo legends. I haven't been since I was a kid. But they are excited to host this at the Alamo.

[Clay Travis]

No, I've never been to the Alamo and I remember the first time I ever even heard of the Alamo was the Peewee Herman movie.

[Buck Sexton]

Yes, we were talking about that a little bit last night. I, I think you'll be surprised by how the Alamo is just right in the middle of San Antonio. Doesn't have a ton of space that it takes up, but I understand they're doing some remarkable historical renovations and building out the guest visitation areas and everything else. And it's supposed to be pretty extraordinary. So we're looking forward to getting down there and being able to visit. By the way, a lot of you have wanted us to dive into the so called big beautiful Bill and actually talk about the math. Here's what I will say. You don't have to agree with Senator Ron Johnson. You don't have to agree with Rand Paul. I do think there are relatively few guys that have spent more time actually looking at where the money that we spend goes. And we know Elon did this with Doge, but center Ron Johnson has left now, but he has a big massive binder that he's got that he's just tracking where the money is going, how it's being spent. And I do think the argument that Democrats have successfully embedded the, to a large extent, the growth of government that they took advantage of during COVID and just made it the baseline going forward. I think he makes a strong argument that we should go back like we did after World War II and reassess the growth of the overall government and.

[Clay Travis]

The amount of money that is being spent that is inefficient, but also that is going to welfare and even within that going to welfare payments, whether through the Medicaid system or others, to illegal immigrants. It is vast. In New York, we have a pretty good sense of the numbers because the New York City budget was really groaning under the pressure of it of 14 billion over a couple of years. That's just the money for emergency immigrant, you know, illegal immigrant money, if you will. Clay in a place like California, the Medi Cal program, the amount of federal dollars that get funneled into that. We had Senator Johnson talking about just Medicaid generally, but Medicaid for illegals. You start to see where this money is going. And the more you follow the money, everybody, I think the more outrageous it becomes and how much of this money is being squandered or spent on things that just frankly shouldn't be spent on to people who shouldn't be getting getting the money. And this is all of our money. And there needs to be a much more serious look at this. And you know, the way the Democrats have set this up, it's just harder and harder to trace the source that is on purpose, that is meant to be. And this is why, you know, I'm in Florida and I've lived in New York, Clay. Florida, 21 million people. New York, 19 million people. Florida's budget, basically 100 billion. New York's budget, effectively 200.

[Buck Sexton]

Which one one runs more efficiently too?

[Clay Travis]

Yeah, so much more efficiently. So you have more population and half the budget in a state with better govern governance across the board, in my opinion, Florida versus New York. And. And this is true of everybody across the country. Your federal dollars are going to subsidize blue state madness. So we'll get into more of this coming up here.

[Buck Sexton]

Oh, also the Simone Biles Biles has apologized. Bu.

[Hannah Jewell]

Nearly 90% of kids who vape say flavors are why they do it. A lot of the flavors that I've heard are like peach, mango, watermelon. It makes it seem like more childlike and innocent. Oh, if I try this once, it won't be that much of a problem. But then eventually it becomes a problem. It's time to restrict the sale of flavored tobacco products in Oregon and protect our kids from nicotine addiction. Urge lawmakers to pay Pass Senate Bill 702A take action@ flavorshookoregonkids.org paid for by the Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids Action.

[Christina Quinn]

Fund Made in America means something to us. When you invest 700 billion annually in American companies and the 13 million workers and families they support, you're investing in the success of Main Street. That's money powering growth in manufacturing, tech, energy and innovation. And it starts with private equity backing American ambition. Learn how private equity keeps American businesses [e-mail] paid for by the American Investment Council. And here we have a specimen from the early 2000s, a legacy investing platform. Please don't touch the exhibit, folks. It could crash. Ready to step out of the financial history [e-mail] you can invest in almost every stocks, bonds, options and more. You can even put your cash to work at an industry leading 4.1% APY. Leave your clunky, outdated platform behind. Go to public.com and fund your account in five minutes or less. Paid for by Public Investing, Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Full [e-mail] disclosures we've all done it.

[Buck Sexton]

You see a headline but don't have time to read the whole story. Or there's so much news you're not.

[Hannah Jewell]

Sure what is worth your time.

[Clay Travis]

Colby I'm Colby Ekowicz, co host of.

[Buck Sexton]

Post Reports, the weekday afternoon podcast from the Washington Post. Post Reports brings you what's relevant and revealing. Breaking stories, politics, wellness, culture. Each episode goes beyond a headline for the context you need.

[Hannah Jewell]

Find Post Reports now wherever you're listening.

[Rodney Williams]

I'm Rodney Williams. And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the wealthbreak Podcast, a real conversation about finance. Let's be honest, building weft doesn't look the same for everyone.

[Christina Quinn]

I feel like sometimes being broke is a cycle and that we might have to revisit that.

[Rodney Williams]

And we're not stopping at success stories.

[Clay Travis]

What happens when it doesn't go right? How do you cope with it?

[Rodney Williams]

Because wealth isn't just about money. It's about creating a life where you thrive and help others do the same. Listen to the Wealth Break podcast on the iHeartradio app.

[Hannah Jewell]

This is an iHeart podcast.