Wellness Unmasked: Politics, Policy, and Public Health: Restoring Trust in the CDC

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show – Wellness Unmasked: Politics, Policy, and Public Health: Restoring Trust in the CDC
Date: September 9, 2025
Host: Dr. Nicole Saphire
Guest: Jennifer Gallardi (Senior Policy Analyst, Restoring American Wellness, Heritage Foundation)
Source Podcast: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show (iHeartPodcasts)

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Overview

This episode dives into the high-stakes drama at the CDC following the ouster of Susan Monterez, the impact of a coordinated statement by former CDC directors rallying against RFK Jr., and the intersection of politics and public health in America today. Dr. Nicole Saphire and Jennifer Gallardi engage in a wide-ranging discussion about transparency, trust, partisanship, vaccine policy, agency reform, and the future of public health leadership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The CDC Controversy & Media Blitz

• Backdrop: RFK Jr. dismisses newly-appointed CDC Director Susan Monterez, prompting a rare joint public response from former CDC directors.

• Media’s Role: Gallardi critiques the New York Times for pushing an agenda to divide Trump-MAGA and Kennedy-MAHA supporters, accusing them of inflaming division and resisting reform ([08:14]).

• Institutional Identity: She likens CDC loyalty to religious orthodoxy, with dissent treated as a threat to personal identity.

  “When you challenge the CDC, you challenge their actual identity, and they have to say, well, everything that I said is wrong. What else am I wrong about?”
  — Jennifer Gallardi [10:44]

• Partisanship in Public Health: Dr. Saphire laments how COVID politicized medicine, and how minor dissent branded professionals as partisans ([11:06]).

2. Navigating Appointments & Transparency

• Ousting Monterez: Saphire voices concern over Monterez’s removal, citing a lack of transparency:

  “There is lack of transparency in what led to some of these decisions. And that does concern me.”
  — Dr. Saphire [12:45]

• Leadership & Dissent: Gallardi defends the practice of new administrations bringing in loyal appointees, distinguishing honest opposition from outright subversion. She likens public health agency leadership to a CEO filling key positions ([13:33]).

• Risk of Perpetual Polarization: Saphire warns that only appointing ideological allies prevents long-term unifying reforms, and could make progress ephemeral after future elections.

  “If you only bring in RFK Jr.’s tight circle, we’re never going to get the support of the other half of the country… As soon as another Democrat comes in, these people will all be gone.”
  — Dr. Saphire [18:16]

3. Partisan Tensions & Public Perception

• Public Health as a Battlefield: Gallardi criticizes the left for highlighting radical spokespersons, arguing both parties are now appointing ideologues, but the previous partisanship during COVID justifies a correction ([19:19]).

• Trusting the Process: She places faith in new CDC appointees, provided their resulting policies promote public health, and emphasizes the need for accountability if things go awry ([20:48]).

• Restoring Scientific Integrity: Both praise Dr. Marty Makary and Dr. Jay Bhattacharya as qualified, apolitical voices now empowered after being sidelined during the pandemic ([22:15]).

4. Erosion of Trust & American Division

• Media Double Standard: Saphire highlights the contrast in media coverage regarding walkouts at the CDC (Biden era) versus FDA (resignations in protest over COVID boosters), underscoring public manipulation ([23:26]).

• Need for Effective Messengers: Saphire argues RFK Jr.’s personal prominence is polarizing; a CDC spokesperson respected across divides is needed to build consensus ([27:29]).

• Gallardi’s Skepticism: Questions whether unification is feasible given entrenched "TDS" (Trump Derangement Syndrome):

  “I don’t know if we’re beyond the phase of unification. If it is just gonna be he with the most votes wins.”
  — Jennifer Gallardi [31:43]

5. Metrics for Success & Long-Term Change

• Benchmarking Health Reform: Both agree that reduced dependence on pharmaceuticals, improved baseline health (notably less obesity), and fostering real food over medication are keys to success ([34:11]).
• Consumer-Driven Change: Gallardi emphasizes that true progress will be led by consumer awareness, policy incentives for farmers, and an honest reckoning with root causes of disease ([37:46]).
• Messaging Breakthrough: Both note that the conversation around metabolic health, gut microbiome, and root-cause medicine is now mainstream thanks to RFK Jr.'s rise ([41:48]).

6. Autism, Vaccines, and Multifactorial Inquiry

• Autism Research: Saphire and Gallardi discuss the MAHA movement’s anticipation of new research. They applaud RFK Jr.’s pledge to examine not just vaccines but also factors like acetaminophen and environmental changes ([43:35]).

  “If you only focus on the vaccines, I think that would have been a massive disservice … because it’s going to be a lot of things.”
  — Dr. Saphire [46:29]

7. Medical Sovereignty & Personal Responsibility

• Doctor-Patient Dynamic: Both assert the need for patient sovereignty and critical thinking in healthcare, championing informed consent over blanket mandates ([49:45]).

  “…people need to take back some sovereignty over their own medical decisions.”
  — Jennifer Gallardi [49:45]

• Root-Cause Medicine: Saphire underscores the importance of prevention and early detection, wishing Americans would act before a health crisis prompts change ([48:46]).

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Why are people so religious about vaccines? … It is because it is their religion.”
  — Jennifer Gallardi [09:45]

• “If you challenged a couple things, that put you as a charlatan, as a Republican, so to say.”
  — Dr. Nicole Saphire [11:16]

• “At some point, I have to say, I don’t know everything. … I trust the direction in which this is going.”
  — Jennifer Gallardi [15:48]

• “We need them to get to a point where these measures are going to stay because I think it truly is the good of the nation.”
  — Dr. Nicole Saphire [18:55]

• “It’s amazing to me who the Democrats kind of parade out as the pillars of excellence.”
  — Jennifer Gallardi [19:35]

• “I don’t believe that. I’ve looked at the people he’s bringing in place and … these people have never been political in their lives.”
  — Jennifer Gallardi [21:16]

• “We are spending too much money on trying to keep people on life support. And … that’s no life to me.”
  — Jennifer Gallardi [34:33]

• “Disease, obesity, these are all signs the body’s telling you like something is wrong. Change something, do something…”
  — Jennifer Gallardi [37:19]

• “This is the first time anyone’s asking them instead of the band aids…”
  — Dr. Nicole Saphire [39:03]

• “You know your body better than anyone else…”
  — Dr. Nicole Saphire [48:46]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

04:00 – Introduction of Jennifer Gallardi and episode’s context
07:54 – First reactions to CDC controversy and media narrative
11:06 – Politicization of public health and transparency concerns
14:29 – The challenge of balancing transparency and leadership
19:19 – Partisanship in CDC appointments; consequences for unity
22:15 – Discussion of Makary, Bhattacharya, and scientific independence
23:26 – Public/media double standards and trust in institutions
27:29 – The importance of the right messenger for CDC reforms
31:43 – Is unification possible? Entrenchment of partisanship
34:11 – Benchmarks and metrics for RFK Jr.’s HHS success
41:48 – How the metabolic health conversation reached mainstream
43:35 – Autism causation, multi-factorial inquiry
49:45 – Advocacy for patient sovereignty and medical autonomy

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Closing Thoughts

• Dialogues like this are essential as the U.S. confronts ideological divides in public health and searches for common ground.
• The stakes are high: trust in public health is fragile, and both speakers agree reform must transcend partisan cycles to become lasting, policy-driven change.
• Both see hope—if the public can be engaged in root-cause health, not mere symptom management.

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For Listeners

If you care about the future of American health, agency reform, or simply want a lucid, passionate debate on how we restore trust in the CDC, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

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[Jennifer Gallardi]

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[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Welcome to Wellness Unmass. I'm Dr. Nicole Safire and today we are going to peel back the layers on something that has everyone talking recently, a group of former CDC directors. They've made headlines because they decided to put out a joint opinion piece, essentially rallying against RFK Jr. After he fired the newly appointed Susan Monterez from her position as CDC director. This has made all the media outlets, people are in an uproar. It's really interesting to see this whole coordinated effort. It's not every day you kind of see it, but it does raise some big questions about politics, power and just the entire direction of public health in this country. So to dig into this, I am joined by Jennifer Gallardi. She is the senior Policy analyst for Restoring American Wellness at the Heritage Foundation. She's been at the forefront of challenging how narratives and health policy are getting shaped and controlled. And she's also involved in the Maha movement. She has her ear on the ground to everything going on there. And she's also been challenging the role of institutions like the CDC and how we're just working to reshape just ultimately how we think about medicine and wellness in America. I'm so excited to have her with us. Let's bring in Jennifer Gallardi.

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[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Jennifer I am so excited to have you on today because there is so much going on in the world of public health that it feels like every day there's a new media headline. And that New York Times article by all of the former CDC and acting CDC directors, I mean, that was pretty substantial. What's your take on all of that?

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Well, it does feel a little bit like, as the world turns every day here in the United States, health agencies, there's always something. You know, the news cycle is very active regardless. And one of the things I try to do is not ignore the news cycles, but understand that they always have an agenda, particularly the New York Times. And their agenda right now is to divide the Maha and the MAGA kind of base that elected Trump with a lot of Kennedy supporters and to oust to get Kennedy out because they don't like what people wanted from him. They don't like the agenda that the people voted for. And that was really to, as Trump said in 2015, Drain the swamp. And I think what Trump realized is like, okay, maybe he can't drain it, but he can clean it up a lot. He put Kennedy in charge to do just that. And now there's blowback because the institution has become so calcified and so distrusted that the moment you try to change it, you are going to see some strong backlash against it. What's interesting to me is I reread the article this morning in preparation to talk to you, and there's really no there, there. There's no solid claims. I think what I see with these, some of these people at the cdc, because they're very careful, right in the way they say, oh, these are CDC directors or people that have worked at the CDC that are both Democrat and Republican trying to make it seem bipartisan. But the thing they all have in common is the orthodoxy that has gotten us into this public health disaster in the first place. And it's kind of like Covid with the people that got the shots. You know, I think about, why are people so religious about vaccines? Why are they so religious about the science and cdc? Why can't they look at alternative data and be open to. Maybe they were wrong and it is because it is their religion. So someone that's the head of the CDC or that's worked for the CDC or given their lives to the CDC for many years in service of what they think is public health, it becomes their identity. So when you challenge the cdc, you challenge their actual identity, and they have to say, well, everything that I said is wrong. What else am I wrong about? I saw that during COVID Yeah. And I think we're seeing that here. It's like I don't know if it's a coordinated attack, but if I were any of these people, right, any of these CDC directors and basically Kennedy and some of the incoming asap, the new, the people on the board of governing vaccines questioning what they've held as orthodoxy for so long, your whole world can start to crumble.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Well, so someone, obviously I work in the medical professional. And you're right. I mean, historically, when you think of public health, it should be apolitical. Throughout Covid, that obviously changed all of a sudden. You know, Covid, with what you were, your talking points were if you followed the mainstream media, public health talking points that aligned you with the Democrats. And if you said anything outside of that, even if you agreed with 95% of the mainstream talking points, but you just questioned a couple of things that put you as a charlatan, as a Republican, so to say. But if you really look at the history of public health, public health really aligns with it's for the greater good, not the individual. So some would actually say that that has always gone towards socialized care, in a sense. Right. It's good for the greater good. And so what President Trump has been saying, especially since COVID is we are going to be the disruptors and we are finally going to look at things not just as a dogma or in a vacuum, but we need to start making sure that we are caring about the individual, not just the greater good. And, you know, I think rub some people the wrong way, especially those who have been ingrained and entrenched in that the greater good mentality. And so this is becoming political. I think one of the concerns that I have a little bit, I am a huge supporter of this reform and everything. A lot of things that are coming out of the White House right now, some things that concern me is the ousting of Susan Monorez, who was the CDC director. She had just been confirmed under President Trump. And then all of a sudden we know that she had meetings with RFK Jr and now all of a sudden she's gone. And one of the things that we called for a lot during the Biden administration was transparency. And although I see RFK Jr. And Dr. Makary, FDA commissioner and some other people doing a lot of media blitzes, there is lack of transparency in what led to some of these decisions. And that does concern me. Yes, I like that changes are being made, but I don't know how they're being made. And when you have Susan Monterez saying that she was being asked to do Things that she deemed illegal or that she deemed went against science. Like, I want to hear more about that. But instead we're not hearing about that. What do you make of that?

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah, it's hard because I do believe that when a new administration comes in, you, you have to have people that are aligned with your agenda and not subverting you. I mean, there was, I did hear Callie mean say there is a very, it's so hard because there's, you want opposition, right. But you want honest opposition. You don't want people that are going to, that are going to undermine the goal at every turn. And so it happens with every turn of an administration. The Biden administration put their people in and Trump's putting his people in and Kennedy's putting their people in. And it is an appointed position, it's not a civil servant. So it should be someone that aligns with Kennedy's agenda. And if you are going to, it's fine to have dissent. I don't think Kennedy will quash dissent.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

We don't actually know what is, we don't know the conversation that led to, is leading to some of this. And so like that's what I want to hear about. I think a lot of the moves are right. But just help us under, help, help everyone understand. Because when you don't, doesn't that make it feel more partisan? Like how what should be their play for getting all of America on board? Because nobody should be able to argue with making sure vaccines and medications are safe and our food safe and kids are exercising more like this should be. Every American should support this. But it feels like some of the rollout is causing a greater divide. So what are they doing wrong?

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah, I don't know. I think there's concern, I know there was great concern in the Maha movement with Manara about her understanding of vaccinations, about her decision making process. So maybe it's just that, like she did not have the Maha support that I know from, from signal chats and everybody kind of within the movement thought that this was a terrible pick. So that is a big support base for Kennedy and probably helped get Trump elected. So I, you know, I could, I could probably agree with you that maybe if they were more honest about or more transparent, but at the same time, it's like if the CEO of a company has to justify to every employee in the company of why they fire somebody, it would be a nightmare. It would be a train wreck. If I have to give you an essay on every reason I'm firing you, have to at some point trust the decision of the leaders that you've elected. And overwhelmingly, not only did they elect Trump, but they elected Kennedy because of this kind of alliance. And so it's the same thing with Trump. I don't know why he's making all his decisions on tariffs, on this and on that, but he, for me, was the best option. And at some point, I have to say, I don't know everything. I can never know everything. And I trust the direction in which this is going. Now, if the direction in which this is going leads to very malaligned and negative outcomes, then I'll start to demand a little bit more information. But for now, I trust Makary. I like 100% trust Jay Bhattacharya, and I trust mostly Kennedy because I feel that he does have honest intentions. I feel like his heart is really wanting to protect people from the deleterious effects of vaccines, which are not negligible. And so we need to have this debate out in the open. I think he will keep people that are willing to challenge him. I'm not sure how if Susan Mena was just challenging or if she was undermining. I think those are two different things. And maybe they should have been more transparent about that.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

That is actually a valid, valid point because, well, as you're saying that the Maha movement, huge movement, I fully agree. They helped get Trump elected. Obviously, some conversations were had to get RFK Jr to join Trump and has made this, you know, mega team that we're seeing right now. And so they have to have that support. But the concern that I have as someone who, again, works in public health, works in medicine, is that I need everyone to come back together a little bit more since COVID It is incredibly fractured. And so while I understand RFK Jr putting in his people to keep Maha and all of that support, because that's what people voted for, but how that is not going to bring that other half. So by ousting anybody who was originally there, and by the way, a lot of them deserve to go. I was very outspoken during COVID about this bureaucracy, but my concern is if you only bring in RFK Jr. S tight circle, we're never going to, one, we're never going to get the support of the other half of the country. And two, as soon as Trump is out of the White House, as soon as another Democrat comes in, these people will all be gone. They will not stay. So I would like to see RFK Jr at all putting in members that can last beyond the administration. I need them to get to a point where these measures are going to stay because I think it truly is the good of the nation. I'm not saying Monterey should have stayed. Actually. I didn't think she was a great pick to begin with. I was surprised she went through the confirmation hearing. I just. My concern is that they're going to continue to pick their unilateral, like Maha picks and. And not bring in someone else who just might chip away at trying to unify the country.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah, well, I think what they'll do is they'll. He's. He's getting. I saw this kind of the Dimitri Dema. What was his last name? All I know is it's a very Greek last name. And on behalf of all Greek people, I'd like to apologize because that man is. I mean, it's amazing to me who the Democrats kind of parade out as the pillars right of excellence.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

The guy who was the outspoken gentleman on Monkeypox. Who. Their pictures floating.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Exactly.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

I thought they were all AI generated. I was like, there's no way that these can be real.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

I saw a video. I mean, I don't know enough about AI, but I saw a video of him parading in some. Regardless, he did say there was a straight up interview with him saying that. That public health priorities need to be balanced with people's joy. Basically, homosexuals get a lot of joy from having promiscuous sex habits. And we need to consider that against the outbreak of monkeypox. And I was like, okay, this is the last person, regardless, that I am taking health advice from. Anyway. It's kind of like the Maryland man, like, find your. Yes, find your champions. But they're not picking very good champions. So I'm seeing this, what's happening at the cdc, just like an infection in the body. Right. It has been infected with partisan people. And you might see. Or someone else might see it. Well, now it's being infected with partisan people on the other side.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

But that's my concern.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah, I think because those partisan people had messed up Covid response so badly and it was so politicized that I'm willing to say let Kennedy put his people in. Let's see if they. I mean, we have to experiment. I'm not so concerned about the people he's putting in as what policies will result from those people. If they're good policies and if they seem to be moving. He's got three years now. I think that's why it's so important just to get people in place. And then the proof will be in the pudding as to what then we can judge them by their policies, but we need to give those people a shot. Right. Just because they like Kennedy and they agree with him, it doesn't mean they're never gonna voice an opposition to his ideas. I don't believe that. I've looked at the people he's bringing in place and Bhattacharya Makari, these people have never been political in their lives. What they did get all is silenced. And that's what I think you're seeing from Trump. You are seeing people who got shut down and canceled over the past five years actually now put in positions and say, I know how this works, we are going to undo this now. If they become too partisan, we'll be able to see that. But I'd like to give them a shot. And what happens when.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Makary is a good friend and colleague of mine. We've written many articles, papers, stuff together throughout Covid. So I love him in his role. I think Bhattacharya is also incredibly qualified, great person in that role too. And as you're saying, they're apolitical. They are not RFK junior Trump loyalists, they are science loyalists and they're great in their positions. And I'm very well.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

And I think you make a good point is they're not loyalists, but they joined forces to support Trump because he's giving them the platform that Biden didn't give them. They were completely justified in having during COVID Right. And so they know how it works. They want to kind of restore this gold standard science. And what I was going to say is when you start to restore the health of the agency or the health of the body, right? You restore the environment of the body that is conducive to health, the parasites will die. And I think that's what we're seeing. Not everybody's leaving the cdc. There's a handful of them, right? There's a good chunk of them. It's not everybody.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Well, and you remember. So people are making a huge stink saying, well, we have these high level people leaving the CDC and protest because they feel it's bad for the people and it's anti American. Can we just remember that the FDA announced resignations of Marian Gruber and Philip Krause because these are the pair that led the whole FDA vaccine office in charge of approving vaccines. But they resigned in protests because they were frustrated over Biden's COVID 19 booster. The White House essentially said, we're going to just keep boosting into perpetuity, regardless of what the variant is, regardless what the data shows. And so these guys were like, I'm not going to be a part of this. We don't agree with it. But those headlines were quick and they went away quickly, and yet the boosters continued. But the media handling of the two walkouts, I mean, they're very different.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah, that's true. And again, you can see a very coordinated attack right now against Kennedy. Again, you know, trying to. I think Callie said, there, there's just. They think they're in this, they're going to win. This is what they're saying. I'm like, there's no winning this. We just want good information, we want good science. But they. They think they're going to outlast Kennedy. And if you've got someone vocally saying, I'm going to outlast him, that's not a. That's not a good starting point for unbiased scientific research, if that's, if that's your attitude. So, fine, let them leave. I mean, everybody's got free will, right? And so if, if, if these people want to walk out of the cdc, if those two wanted to leave the fda, that's. That's up to them. If it's, if it goes against their conscience, fine. But this is, this is the agenda. This is what the people voted for. I'm happy. Most people that I know are happy, at least in the Maha movement. So we'll see. We'll see what they do and how they do. I think if they're transparent with the data. And someone's always going to say, well, this data did this and this data, but you do the best you can in making sure the research, that you disclose, any conflicts of interest, that you disclose any limitations in studies. And they didn't do that at the cdc. They didn't. Like Trump said in his tweet, he's like, I want to see all this data. You told me, Pfizer, you told me this was safe and effective. This is this. It's interesting that he was so about his Operation Warp Speed, and so many Maha people were like, if he would just tone that rhetoric down. And he did. In this election, he didn't go as full, but like I did Operation Warp Speed. Now, for him to outright say, I could have been wrong and I got misled, I think is huge, and he wants to see the data.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

I'm equally surprised that he did tone that down, and that tells me that he is listening to the people around him, which anybody who has met President Trump, knows that he does listen to those around him. I think that's a great thing and it's a great sign of a leader. I will say one of the things moving forward that I have a little bit of a concern about is, again, the new ACIP. So RFK Jr. Fired all of the existing 17 members. I think the majority of them probably could have gone. I would have liked him to have kept a few of them. Again, just to just. So it's not removing one side and bringing in an entire other side, because to me, that remains polarized. It would have been nice if he kept some of the original, just to create that conversation. He didn't. So now the next ACIP is meeting in a couple of weeks, I believe, and they're talking about vaccines again. And my concern is, unfortunately, they're hopefully going to put forth recommendations, and it's not just going to be RFK Jr. Making a media announcement, which is what it has been, unfortunately. We have to continue to have these conversations because that is the transparency that we all need and we've been demanding. But the problem is, whatever comes out of this new ACIP, whatever comes out of RFK Jr. Immediately, half of the people are going to dissent. And like we just saw with the American Academy of Pediatrics, which I. I'm in complete disagreement with them when it comes to the vaccines and kids. But I'm just so gutterly concerned that people aren't just going to listen. And maybe some of the stuff coming out of the new CDC are going to be for the benefit, but people are going to want to reject it so much. So I really think that RFK Jr. I know people love him. There is a portion of this country that wants to hear from nobody except him. They love him that much. And anything he says goes. He's not the right messenger for what's going on right now, not if we're trying to unify. And I think that they need a CDC spokesperson to deliver the message, to try and gain support so that we can finally get to a place of peace. I think part of that is also a surgeon general who. The current nominee. I don't think they're even scheduled for a hearing yet. Probably soon. I would hope so. But I think the current.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

I was wondering about that, too, because I think it's because she's pregnant. Maybe. I know she's about to have a baby. I mean, that shouldn't be the reason.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

But you need a surgeon general who's going to be supported by Maha. You absolutely Obviously need that. You need them to be supported by maga. But the Surgeon General should also be someone who's respected amongst the medical community. And I think the current nominee will not be. And I think that will just cause a lot more issues in terms of communication. I could be wrong. I don't know her, never met her.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Who would you. Because you probably know these people more personally and have scrutinized them more deeply than I have. Who do you think should be that messenger of the CDC regarding vaccines, even if it's not. And then who do you think would be a good nominee for Surgeon General?

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Excellent questions. And you know what? I can't list names. I can tell you, I think the original Surgeon General nominee, Jeanette Neshwat, in my opinion, she has media presence, she knows how to be in front of a camera. She was she a perfect nominee? No, I think that a lot of politics were behind that. You know, her brother in law is in the administration. But that's really how politics works. Right? It's kind of all about who you know. But I think that everything works.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

By the way, Nicole, I think, yeah, you know, people get jobs because of, of networking a lot of the times.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

So when people were like, well, she only got it because of. I'm like, well, yeah, that's how most people get these positions. But she was a practicing physician and she devoted a lot of her spare time, a lot of volunteer work. She did a lot of frontline work. So she was respected in the medical community. And maybe she wasn't Maha's first pick. And I don't even think maga, she was their number one. But I think she kind of touched on all three of those. Was she the perfect nominee? Probably not. I don't know if there is a perfect nominee. My concern is about the current nominee is she fits the Maha box, but I don't think she'll fit the MAGA box. And I don't really think that she's going to be widely accepted by establishment medical community. I don't have a name for you. I mean I could probably do some thinking, but I really hope it's not someone in RFK Jr. S inner circle and he tries to extend himself beyond so that we could form a cohesive message. And in terms of the CDC spokesperson, it doesn't need to be anyone who has a name. It just someone who can be in front of the camera who people don't see this person and then have that knee jerk reflex to stop listening or wanting to do opposite. They could be saying exactly what RFK Jr would say in front of that camera.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Right.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

But because it's a different messenger, people may actually listen and support it more. And that's because we, as you pointed out in the beginning of this, we need them to get their metrics so that when they leave the White House, they can say, look what we've done.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Right, Right. My concern is though, that doesn't matter who it is, because TDS is real. I mean, again, it's been. This example has been given, like Trump, a member of Trump's administration, or Trump himself could cure cancer and they would say, oh, well, there's positive things to cancer. We don't. You know, I just think, and I tend to have a good pulse read on the culture, because I lived in Los Angeles for so long, on the political culture out there, on the mindset of these people, it is their knee jerk response of if it's aligned with Trump, it's bad. And so I'm not so sure that there's a way around what you're talking about. I don't know if we're beyond the phase of unification. If it is just gonna be he with the most votes wins. We support this more than you do. I understand politics is the power of persuasion. It always should be in, in normal people's minds. But most of the party, of the Democrat party is that extreme progressive. At least they're the loudest, it seems to be who the media highlights. Like I said, this Dimitri guy, really? This is the guy you're gonna parade.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Around, best foot forward.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah. And so. And be your standard bearer for the Democrat or for the left leaning position. It's the most progressive, radical thing ever. And when those are the people that you're kind of highlighting, I don't know that the power of the typical power of persuasion works. I see it on my Facebook page. I mean, people I used to be friends with have gone crazy.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

You can't reason with crazy. I mean, that is very true. And there's nothing you could say to make them come around. You might be right. You're not right that we are beyond unification. I'm not anywhere near retiring, so I really hope you're wrong.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

But.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

So let's talk real quick. What do you think, looking back, what metrics are you looking for out of RFK juniors, hhs to say this was the right move, this is a success, and they can leave here feeling confident in their abilities.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

I think if we can simplify it, there's so many niche discussions around vaccines, around autism, around environmental. If we can just get America less fat and less dependent on pharmaceuticals and less dependent on the government.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

That doesn't mean less fat on Ozempic.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Right, right. And less dependent. That's correct. Because I got into a little scuffle, as I do on social media. This was actually LinkedIn. So it was a little more. People on LinkedIn tend to be like, you're right here, you're wrong there. They tend to be a little bit more rational because it is more of a professional platform. Professional. But you know, this one girl on Ozempic saying, some people need drugs the rest of their life. I'm like, well, that shouldn't be the goal. Right. And especially when other people are paying for it. So I'm fine if you want to use some sort of crutch. She was calling it some people need a crutch for the rest of their lives. I'm like, go ahead, use the crutch. But I don't want to pay for it. So until you figure out a system where I'm not paying for Eurozempic for the rest of your life, I'm fine with it. But as it is now, we need to push healthy food solutions. And the other thing is, I get in scuffles too, with libertarians that are like, get the government out of everything. I was like, well, no, there is a moral imperative to the government a little bit. It's not just all economics. We see what happens when a cultural and moral decline kind of what happens to everything. And so we want to use some sort of government incentives to do good things, to do. Right. Like we're, we're moral animals. We're fallen. So what does the government put in place? I'm thinking, particularly with agriculture here, like, how do we incentivize small farmers to stay in the market to grow healthier food? Yes, it's great to say, well, if organic farmers wants. Want to do it on their own, that's up to them because in the long run, they will be financially more stable. They won't be as reliant on government subsidies and crop insurance and all that, but they might need a little. Again, here's a crutch that hopefully won't last forever. Right? You give some smaller farmers an incentive or a boost to start farming with better tools and less toxic tools, whatever. If they want to, you don't force them. And then you say, okay, off you go. You're an adult now. Figure it out on your own. We've helped you. Right? That's what the government should be. There for so kind of. To go back to your discussion of benchmarks, I would like to see less people dependent on the government medical system. We are spending too much money on trying to keep people on life support. And the other thing is that's no life to me. Good health is not. The absence of disease is not just like, numb my systems. Pardon me, it's not like, give me an ssri. That's not good health. Being on Ozempic the rest of your life is not good health. You're just masking symptoms to me. Disease, obesity, these are all signs the body's telling you like something is wrong. Change something, do something, depression, something's off. Right. Here's an SSRI to get you to stable so we can start to look deeper into some of these things so you can be functioning, but something's off. And I think as woo woo as it sounds from someone like Casey Means and maybe Callie Means, and this is somewhat of a. I think the health crisis is at the point now where we can acknowledge it as this is a little bit of a spiritual crisis. Americans are turning to things as addictions. So I think we need to treat food as an addiction like we treat marijuana as an addiction. Any pharmaceutical that you're dependent on for the rest of your life as an addiction, it's a drug, it's an outside resource, which is fine as a temporary band aid. But the minute we see this as a solution to just kind of COVID up what's really going on, whether it's metabolic dysfunction, spiritual crisis, mental health crisis, we really need, and this is what you hear in the Maha movement across the board, is its root cause. What is at the root of your disease?

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

I mean, these are very complex questions, but this is the first time anyone's asking them instead of the band aids to treat the illness instead of looking at the root causes. And I'm so grateful that they're having this conversation. But do you think it's realistic that in three years we are actually going to have data showing results from this?

[Jennifer Gallardi]

I think there might be some. I mean, I don't need to see drastic results. I just need to see the bars moving in the right direction. I just need to see a decrease even in the slightest. I mean, particularly with just run of the mill, average American overweight obesity. Right. Like in the airports. Right. I just want to see.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Go to Disneyland. Let me know who you see exactly. Who's sitting in the cards for the disabled.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah, I just want to see a little bit of change in the right direction. You're right. And I've said this over and over again. If we are depending on Kennedy to carry this movement forward, it won't last. Part of my goal at the Heritage foundation is to convince conservatives that this is as big a political item that we should be voting on these issues. Not these people necessarily, but on these issues and those who carry these issues with as much diligence and passion as we voted on the immigration standpoints, we got immigration under wrap. We're getting it there. These need to be as a conservative for me and by default a Republican. It might be an Independent, but it certainly won't be a Democrat. These need to be cornerstones of their platform, of their political platform. And if it has that much sway, then I think we will start to see it outlast any executive administration's executive orders. I think people, what you said, I think the messaging has been the biggest success. I'm sure. You know, six months ago, even maybe eight months, just before Kennedy came on the scene, no one was talking about metabolic dysfunction, gut microbiome, root cause disease. I mean we are in this field somewhat and so we hear it all the time. I've been hearing it for 10 years. But just the fact that people are starting to read labels, this has to be consumer driven, right? Because policy can't fix everything. I think it has to be consumer driven. It is the heightened awareness to all of these things. And I think if we can focus on that and the positive aspects of that, we'll kind of be in this for the long haul.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Well, I don't want to, but I did write a book in 2020 all about actually called Make America Healthy Again, How Bad Behavior and Big Government Caused a Trillion Dollar Crisis. And it was all about the leading cause of illness and the root causes. But it was a more of a policy driven book as well, Affordable Care act and that. So you're right, those topics were not picked up on and it wasn't until RFK came onto the scene that finally people are listening. And it's just an incredible thing to witness. I just hope that they can get there and some of the polit be checked at the door because I think a lot of what they're doing is truly for the good of the nation. You know, one thing, one question I have for you because you're plugged in, you're on these signal chats with Maha. Do you think, you know RFK Jr. Has vowed he's going to look into vaccines and their links to autism. I mean that is clearly something he has dedicated Decades of his life and career to. Recently he said the flu vaccines with thimerosal are not going to be used here in the United States. I mean that was obviously a big announcement. It's not huge in the sense that most kids here in the United States don't have those multi dose vials that have thimerosal. But it's still a step towards what people were asking of him. He says in September, which we're now in that he is going to talk about some things that they have found that may be linked to autism. They've already come out saying maybe acetaminophen, maternal use of it while pregnant. Will the Maha movement be satisfied if he does not come out and say, you know, these vaccines are directly linked to autism?

[Jennifer Gallardi]

I think they need to, I think they put their trust in him. He's done this research, you know, like you said, he's. That that was his, his primary fight and kind of against his own will. Like he didn't, he's like, eh, this is not really like these mothers came to him and he was overwhelmed by it that he decided to pick up this cause. So I think we need to trust him and then he needs to provide the data or if he wants to have the NIH and put some funding, say okay, here's some descriptive analysis. This justifies a more intense, rigorous research that we'll delve into. But I'll trust him. I honestly think he wants what's best. I mean I also see like our kind of maternity practices. I don't have children, so I was kind of shocked when I learned that like mothers didn't breastfeed anymore or they just didn't think that I was like such a natural process that I always viewed as like childbirth and breastfeeding. Then to find out like people are having C sections because of convenience, like oh, I want to have. Not because of a medical emergency but because it was like oh, I just don't want to have the baby on that date or I don't want to wait or my doctor's going on vacation. I was like, just common sense would tell me like there is a natural birth process for a reason. There's a benefit to the, probably both the mother and the child.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

There are huge benefits to the natural birth.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

And I know why.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Breastfeeding.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah. But common sense would just tell me and now they say it has a lot to do with the immune system. Right. Like kind of dopamine that goes through or some more chemicals that when the child goes through the vaginal Canal, like all of these things. And I'm like, I don't know that that has anything to do with autism, but I'd be curious to find out. Right? And so I'm very curious about this report that will come out. I'm not willing to say it's all vaccines. I think it could be a multiple of causes and kind of multifactorial. And I think even Kennedy has alluded to that. Like, it's really hard because so much has changed so quickly in our culture, with our food supply, with the way we do medical care for women, women's health, which really hasn't been studied that in depth. I think it's going to be hard to pinpoint one thing. I think what's interesting is, though, the rapid increase in the number of vaccinations within the childhood vaccine schedule. So again, to me, it's not one thing. It could be all of these things at one time. And that's my thought. With the childhood vaccine schedule, it's not one vaccine. It's. You are just loading these kids up with different things that they've never been loaded with before. How are we supposed to pinpoint one thing?

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Well, I was actually pleasantly surprised when they mentioned just the acetaminophen or Tylenol. For most people, that that's what they were looking at, that with the autism. Because for me, if he was only looking at vaccines right now, I think that would be a massive mistake because there is an increased incidence in autism and it's not just expanding the diagnostic criteria, like enough, correct? Yes, that is part of it, but you can't deny it. But if you only focus on the vaccines, I think that would have been a massive disservice to those children and the families who are suffering from it as well. Because I think it's going to be much bigger and I don't think it's going to be one thing. I think it's going to be a lot of things. So when he said that they had looked at that, I'm like, that's great, because this is what we need. We need someone who's going to look at everything and not be stuck in the vacuum or the microcosm. So I think exciting times ahead. Cautiously optimistic, at least from my standpoint. I hope we can get some more people in front of the camera delivering some of these messages and milestones just to try and decrease the partisanship. Because ultimately, I think that what they are wanting to is to improve the health of America and anybody who is against that are anti American.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah. I'm interested. As a practicing doctor, I think a lot of these things is what doctors do. We put doctors on a pedestal to know the answer. But part of the what I would think a doctor's role is to ask questions of the patient. And then you're like, well, it might be this thing. Well, it might be what you're eating, or it might be your sleep habits, or it might be your gut, or it could be.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

And all of the above.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah, and it could be all of the above. And I think that's what good medicine is, whether it's just in a patient doctor relationship or whether we're talking about our agencies. Like you said, we should be looking at everything and then tailoring broad recommendations. That's what I think people also need to remember is the government is not the end all, be all.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

We're all in a whirl of trouble if that's the case.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

But I think people have placed too much faith in that as well.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Well, yes, I mean, that's part of the big problem. I'm in a unique position in the sense that my day job is diagnosing cancer. And so I tell people they have cancer every single. But why my mission and passion have gone to root causes a long time ago in early detection of disease is because it often takes, when I tell someone they have cancer for them to want to then live a healthier life. And I wonder why they didn't want to live the healthier life before the cancer diagnosis. And so that's kind of been my impetus and my messaging. And one thing that I say to people more than anyone else when they ask my opinion on things is that you know your body better than anyone else. All I can do is tell you everything I know. But ultimately, it's your choice, and I'm here to help guide you. And if I don't know the answer, I'm going to be the first to admit it.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Kind of just got chills because I think that's really, you know, people need to take back some sovereignty over their own medical decisions. And the more the government imposes on us and says you have to get the vaccine, I think you're seeing a natural rebellion because inherently human dignity involves, please don't tell me that you know better than I know what's happening with me. Right? Anybody.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

Autistic tone?

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah, yeah, Anybody with a smidge of self reflection. And I think anybody that's diagnosed with a disease as severe as cancer will have, I would think, come to some point of self reflection and Say, how did it get here? What did I ignore? What can I do now to the best of my ability to heal? And that doesn't involve necessarily the government. You have to do some soul searching. When I think you get to that point of severe chronic disease, and that would be my message to everyone, is take back some sovereignty over your own life, over your own medical decisions. Sure, these are guidelines, but sit down and talk with people you trust. Get second opinions. Remember those second opinions.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

And by the way, get a third opinion if they disagree.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yeah, yeah. And I did that with Nisir. I know people that do that with an ACL tear about the best treatment or the best way to handle it. The best PT do I do PT before and after, Just after you know those things, you know who to trust. Like, you know who you resonate with and what's going to align with your fundamental beliefs about healing. So I just wish people would, would stop looking to the government. It's so ironic that all of a sudden these institutions that completely failed us during COVID are being held as the standard bearers of gold standard science.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

You know, I think they still know what's best. Well, there's definitely a movement and everyone can feel it. It's in the air, it's on the ground. So I'm so grateful that you came on Wellness Unmasked to talk about this. It's a really tough discussion, a difficult discussion, but we have to keep having these discussions because ultimately all we want is to make America healthy again.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

I agree and I'm so happy to come on anytime. I love discussing people with people I disagree with. I think it's very helpful for the audience to hear and hopefully inspires people to go read a little bit more and open their mind a bit more. So thank you so much for having me on. Although ultimately I think we agree on all this. I was gonna say, I don't know.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

If we disagree on things. I think we agree on a lot of the message.

[Jennifer Gallardi]

Yes, yes, for sure. All right, thanks.

[Dr. Nicole Safire]

More coming up on Wellness unmasked with Dr. Nicole Safire.

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[Dr. Nicole Safire]

For today's episode of Wellness Unmasked. Yes, there was some back and forth, but at the end of the day we really agree on the big issues. We want what's best for our children, what's best for our families, and ultimately we just want to make America healthy again. So a big thank you to Jennifer Gallardi and the Heritage foundation for joining us today. The fact that the former CDC directors are publicly banding together to try and influence leadership at hhs, it just shows how high the stakes are for the future of health policy. In my opinion, sometimes the right messenger is just as important as the message being delivered. So that is my hope for HHS and President Trump in the White House. Let's focus on who is delivering the message because no one can argue with the goal of making America healthy again. Thanks for listening to Wellness Unmasked on America's number one podcast network. I Heart Follow Wellness unmasked with Dr. Nicole Safire and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts and we will see you next time.

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