Adam McLean (1:40)

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Podcast Host (1:41)

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Adam McLean (2:40)

There is such an amplification of violence, and we're gonna have to face it as a culture. We're gonna have to unify on this. We're gonna have to stand up together collectively and say no more. Does that mean we need to have troops on the street, everywhere, A policeman on every corner? No, that's not what I'm calling for. But society's gonna have to take a shift. We're going to have to take the deep, address this rot that's coming or that has manifested itself.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (3:23)

The duality of man is a false dichotomy, at least when it comes to violence with just cause. The armed and trained are painted as itching for a fight. The war fighter, especially the combat veteran, is cast as broken, dangerous, and one spark away from disaster. This is the shallow comfort of a culture addicted to easy labels. Calm or chaotic, peaceful or aggressive. But the real world isn't that clean. In the crucible of war, the street, and the places where decisions shape life and death. Opposites live side by side. There is calmness and violence. Peace grows in the discipline of preparing for war. These are not contradictions. They are the deeper truths known only to those who have walked both paths and return change. This book is not a celebration of violence. It is a study of it. I am.

Adam McLean (4:30)

Pretty moved.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (4:36)

When I read the words that are in this book, and that doesn't happen a lot for me, you know, from reading the Book of Five Rings to the Gates of Fire to all the other books that are. Have been written throughout history, you know, when you. You read something powerful and profound. And that's why I really wanted to bring Adam McLean, United States Marine Infantry Rifleman, onto the David Rutherford show to be able to explain the importance of this book, when violence is virtue, and why he wrote it and what he hopes the impact will be not only on those of us who've gone to war, but on those in the country and around the world who maybe feel like they need to start preparing for the idea that violence is virtue. So without further ado, I'm just honored to welcome Adam McLean to the show. Adam, thank you for joining me.

Adam McLean (5:45)

No, no, thank you for. For having me. The. The. The honor is. Is certainly mine. You know, this. This book, it's something that I'm seeing how much it resonates, and that means a lot. You know, this. This is my first book, you know, and a Couple months ago, I was not an author. I was just me, you know, like. And I'm still digesting that. And, you know, going from, you know, we make the jokes of Marines, you know, crane eaters, knuckle draggers, and. Oh, you were. You were in O3 11. Boy, you were an asfab waiver for that, too, weren't you? You know, and. And now this book is. Has bestseller attached to it on Amazon. And this. The comments I get from people when as they're reading this, and it's. It's been many, obviously. You know, it's. I've. I'm on Twitter and I'm seeing it there. That's, you know, when Clay Martin endorsed it. You know, I. I wanted him to read it. And. And I was just like, hey, I want to send you a copy, because I want you to read it and I want your comments. But that was a private message. I. I just wanted his opinion. And now here we are today on. And he helped, you know, blow this up.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (7:21)

And that's where I saw it. You know, Adam, I mean, I'm. I'm a. I'm a huge fan of Clay. You know, I had him on the show to talk about veteran suicides and psychedelics and.

Adam McLean (7:31)

Yeah.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (7:32)

You know, and he's a true war fighter. I mean, that guy's been there and done it. And when he promoted it, I was like, all right, I've got to get this and got to read it. And then, you know, instantaneously, it was like, all right, I need to understand you, why you wrote it and what you want the impact to be. For sure.

Adam McLean (7:53)

Yeah. And. And, you know. You know, so I did two deployments. I did a mew, which was also funny.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (8:03)

Can you tell me first, though?

Adam McLean (8:05)

What.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (8:05)

Tell everybody why you wanted to be Marine in the first place. Because I think, you know, that's. That's for all of us. It's like this very intimate decision, in particular, knowing that there's a gwat going on.

Adam McLean (8:18)

Right.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (8:18)

It's not like it's pre 9, you know, 90s or whatever. I mean, like, there's wars happening. So. Can you explain that first before you.

Adam McLean (8:28)

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So I graduated high school in 2003. I didn't join until 2011. Obviously, that's quite a bit of a discrepancy in the timeframe that the gwat was occurring. You know, when I graduated high school, I'd see Marine recruiters. My best friend and I. First thing we would do when we'd see him was we'd grab hands and pretend, you know, because at the time that was a little not quite acceptable in, in the military and the country. It was a different world. And you know, we had no interest in, you know, I had no interest in joining the military. But quite frankly though, I realize, you know, things you realize in retrospect is I didn't really have a lot of drive in general and why the Marine Corps probably helped that my brother was in the military. You know, he did 13 years in the Navy and so, so that probably helped be a driving motivator, but I.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (9:28)

Didn'T enjoy it before you.

Adam McLean (9:31)

Yeah, yeah, he went in after high school. He graduated in 98, so I think it was about 99 years or so when he went in, maybe a little later. But you know, he was in the Navy and I didn't want to go in the Navy because I didn't want to be on a ship, which is ironic. My first deployment was on a ship and I spent more time out at sea than my brother did in his entire 13 year career. Another irony. But you know, I didn't want to go in the Air Force. I wanted, maybe it was those uniforms of the Marines, slaying the dragon and getting his dress blues, you know, that got a lot of us. But I knew something had to change. And I graduated college because my parents like go to college, you got to get a degree. And I all halfway through college I was like, I want to drop out into a list. And they were like, no, you're finishing college. And so I was like, okay, all right, we'll finish this. And then so I graduate college, I'm living back at my parents place, working three jobs, one of which was the same one that I had been working while in college. And I knew something had to change. And at this point I certainly, you know, I had bumped up like I was 255, 50 some pounds. Like I was a big guy. And, and I just was like, I'm, I'm, I need, something has to change. I have to do something drastically different. And so that was, I think a big catalyst for, for, for joining the Marine Corps was everyone knows that is a challenge, right? Like we have movies made about how, you know, crazy it is to join the Marine Corps and how, how that lifestyle is just, it's, it was a complete opposite of what I was doing. And it's, I think that's, that's what was part of the drive was I'm doing this, it's getting me nowhere. Let's break the cycle. And So I lost £40. I. You know, and. And I joined the Marine Corps, and I was like, I want to be an O3 11. You know, I had a degree, but I was thinking, if this career works out, then I'll go Mustang. But I wanted to be in the fight. Like, you know, it was. And so that's what I did. I remember going into the recruiter, as you know, is £250, and telling him, I'm here for the job. And one of the recruiters, who was a sergeant, he was a. He was a mortarman, and he made my life hell until I left there. And thank God he did, because he. He helped. He pissed me off, and that drove me more. And I don't know if he understood that or if he was trying to get me out of there because, like, you don't fit here. Either way, I made it through. And, you know, they kept, you know, I. When I passed the ASVAB, I got like a 84, 87, something like that. And my sergeant, who was my recruiter, he was like, you can have any job you want in the Marine Corps with this. I'm like, I want infantry. He reiterates, you can have any job you want in the Marine Corps. And I'm like, no, this is what I want to do. I'm not here. I'm not here just for a job. I need this challenge. I needed it. I may not have known it quite fully then, but that's what it was. I needed it. And then, so obviously, I go through all that. First deployment ends up being the mew, which was insane. I was on the USS New York. The bow of that ship was made from steel from the trade towers.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (13:14)

Wow.

Adam McLean (13:15)

The whole ship is. There is just so much Pictures, photos from 9 11. It's a memorial, too, to those who fell there and serve on. That was really cool. And also, I remember, you know, on 9 11, 2012, we saw Benghazi on. On. On the news, on the ship after being stood down from going in there. Wow. And that was. That was quite. Quite an experience that I think made me real bitter for a long time.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (13:56)

You and me both, brother. Those were my friends who got killed. And that was supposed to be my NEST station with grs. And just watching that and knowing how many assets were in the area and how many. All the things they could have done, it just. It shatters you when you begin to think, wait, there's. It's not about, like, doing the right thing, right? It's because, like, you're. When as you're talking about going in and being an infantryman, like, there's the allure of that is. Is the historical legacy of those guys who hit Iwo Jima, you know, those guys at Belly. Bella, Bella. I always mess that up.

Adam McLean (14:36)

And fellow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (14:39)

Bellaud. Sorry. And, you know, and it's all the way back to the Barbary wars, right? You know, and, you know, there's a. There's a history of that. That reality, and when you see the moments where it doesn't play out as it should, you're like, wait, what? Wait, what's going on? So I can imagine you're on that mew. You're watching it. You're like, we're right here. What the hell?

Adam McLean (15:05)

Oh, no. We were. We were stood down. We had Marines already on the bird. I was. We had our gear staged on the New York. There was this long hallway that all our. Our kit was staged. We had our rifles. We were. We had magazines loaded, which. And we. And I remember the look of a Marine I served with just this bewilderedness. His face was just. He didn't even know what's going on here. Like. Like we were on the bird and now we're pulled off the bird when we were. When we were a healer right away. So that stuck with me. And that was. That was a rough deployment. For a lot of reasons, Mews are not fun. The next deployment, that was the real show, right? That was Afghanistan. And I was with one two Alpha Company as I was with the Mu. And we. We were. They had a space out of Camp Weatherneck during the retrograde in 2014, which is kind of an interesting period of time because when no one really talks about it, you know, we talk about Fallujah. We talk about, you know, all these. All these big battles in the global war and terror.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (16:29)

Just in 09, the Marja push. I mean that. I was there with the agency during that. And I remember there was a guy at ground branch who was on my base who was a former lieutenant colonel in the Corps, and his son was, you know, out doing over daylight patrols, you know, and they got AMP. You know, they get hit with IEDs, and it was, you know, you're just like, wait, what is going on? It's 2009, and the ROEs, they're not. We're not allowing our guys that are out there supposed to pacify these providences to do what they're supposed to do. And it's just like, I don't. I didn't get it. I didn't understand it, and so, you know, tell us a little bit about 14, because I think those are the years that are really long lost on people. So I'd love to hear your perspective.

Adam McLean (17:20)

So, so first we were supposed to be the last combat units in Afghanistan. When, when we left Leatherneck, that, that was supposed to be it. Let me see how that went. But the ROES man, you have me fired up on that because we were afraid to do our job. We thought if we take out, you know, insurgents who are, who are coming at us, attacking us, that our command was going to fry us. That is something that doesn't make you feel confident in doing what you're doing. And eventually though the job, it made me very apathetic to life at that point. You know, I remember at one point, so we were on, we me, we were seen from the base that, you know, because we're, we're, you know, we, we have all these fortifications along here. It's basically just a big dirt wall. And then you have posts. Well, we're on post and we see these guys way out in the distance, they're digging holes. So what are we going to go do? We're gonna go look, we're gonna go. And so a day or two later we go out on the mrap. So we're checking these holes out and you know, the highest ranking guy there is a corporal. And we, at this point where we found where they're digging, we just, we, we don't even think about the fact, hey, maybe they put something here, maybe they booby trapped this or whatever it is. So we're all just kicking it up and you know, getting in there and, and just like I'm like wait, like we don't even care anymore. We're all just in this gaggle right here. Who knows what it, what it could have been. And it turned out that they had a, a uniform stage there and I think a few other miscellaneous things. So obviously they were trying to, I guess breach the perimeter and that was their, their planning for it. But that was an interesting experience. And, but we did that was later in the deployment, you know. You know, while we were there the whole time we see the base just shrinking, shrinking, right. They kept the outer perimeter, but all the stuff like, you know, there's a million defects that, you know, we never got to go because we were working. But you know, all the stuff started being compressed and there was this great vast difference of desert between where our posts were and where the base actually resided on. Camp Weatherneck. Camp Weatherneck was part of also there was a British air base bastion, and then there was the ANA side. I forget what their. Their name with the base was for them, but it's. But it's all together. And our side was just compressing. Compressing. But we. We did two Alpha Company, we did two pushes, big pushes out into an area called Natalie, where we knew that they. The Taliban had been stashing weapons. And we, as part of us getting ready to leave and hand it over the base, we were like, well, we need to go take this out the. And before that gets used on the ANA when we. When we leave. So it's kind of. And so. So the whole plan of combat operation at this point was like, how do we help with the transition? And this. Those two combat operations that were out for. For most, several days at a time, those two ended up being interesting because, well, they started firing all their caches at us. You know, they. They had a lot of RPGs. Yeah, a lot like it was. And. And one of the interesting ROEs we had was whenever they would start shooting RPGs at us, we would stop our MRAPs. I don't know about you, but I think a moving target is a harder target to hit than the. But I was not. I mean, I was a lance corporal. I got promoted into corporal at some point during that deployment. I don't remember the time frames. Athlete gets blurry. It's been a decade, but it was. That was wild, you know. And another interesting thing I remember, you know, we. We had put seawire down on their roads. Their roads. It's just a dirt path. And then you could go around them very easily. It was kind of silly, but I remember just, you know, getting up in the morning. I'm. Me and three other Marines were tasked to go pick it up. And we ended up using my. If we had gotten attacked, you know, I mean, what are the two most dangerous times? Dawn and dusk, right? So we're out there at dawn picking up C wire, me with two other Marines, and we're using my M16 to hold the C wire. Like a buddy's holding the barrel and I'm holding the butt stock. So if we got engaged, I can't even fight the enemy. Well, they didn't. You know, our leadership didn't go. They said, go get this. I'm like, there's no, hey, take a shovel or something. It was just, go, go do this. And so that was kind of a. More comical and. But all those things turned into, like, between the restrictive roes, between just the ridiculousness of the scenario that we were put forth there, it kind of just really changed me and made me very apathetic for a while. Like, I remember being asked if I was extending to go on. Oh, there's another thing. A part of the. Halfway through the deployment, they start telling us about the next deployment. And like, we're like, guys, you already killing our morale here. So I, I got out. Like, I left active duty. And then I did come back in 2017 into the reserves. I had a prior service recruiter call me and he's like, hey, did you know you can go play marine and get paid and you can quit whenever you want? Wait, I have master over mastery over my career with you now. Why didn't you guys tell me this years ago? And so I spent about a year in the reserves and ultimately that kind of came to an end, though. I was in Michigan doing Operation Northern Strike. We were setting up fighting holes to just do the training where we were going to have ranges and get, you know, attacked, whatever, and just shoot out at the targets they'd put. We'd put up. So my, my team, my two guys, they, they dig their, uh, skirmishers. Now it's my turn to dig my skirmisher, right? Clank, clank with the E tool to the right. Clank, clank to the left. Clank forward. Pull it up. What do I pull up? Well, I pull out this. What I think was a rock. I live in New Hampshire, right? Like, and so I just think big granite rock in the ground. Well, I pulled out was a live arty round. No, I'm holding a live already around. They had EOD came out, they used a couple pounds of C4 to blow it up. They told me it was live and then I should buy a lotto ticket. And my girlfriend, who's now my wife, she was like, dude, you gotta make a decision. You almost not only like, if that would have blown up right from me clicking it, it would have just been me. It would have been my entire platoon. That would have been national news, Right? Can you imagine what would happen if a platoon of marines got taken out in training in Michigan by a live hardy round?

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (24:44)

No.

Adam McLean (24:45)

Yeah. And so, so after that, I was like, okay, guys, like, it's one thing if this were to happen in war. And you know what? I was only here to have fun, hang out with the boys, train the next generation for a little bit. I'm just going to hand off my thules, which, which was like just a manual, military manual, which was hard to get. And good knowledge in there. I just handed that off to one of my marines who was under me, who I thought could show potential to be a leader. And I called it a day. And that wraps up my military career.

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Interviewer (David Rutherford) (31:26)

That, you know, I, I felt a very similar thing in the beginning of the war because I was in Afghanistan in the summer of O2 and felt, you know, apoplectic about the decisions that seemed to not being, that weren't being made in terms of a tactical focus or mission or, you know, I mean, and later on I, I, I, I ended up finding out that, you know, Pakistan was FL level. Members of Al Qaeda out after Tora Bora and Taliban just all went into Quetta where Mullah Omar was, his whole tribe was. And, and it's like, you know, I was like, oh my God. And then, you know, the subsequent times I went back ending with, you know, my last trip over there in 2010, I was there, a couple deployments with the agency. It's almost like nothing had changed. And then what you're telling me right now, you know, on the way out, a very similar sensation was taking place. Now I do have friends, you know, at tier one units that, you know, that they were getting the job done. But for the rest of us, you know, I think other than some very strategic times, there was this kind of hidden hurdle, hidden hurdles for, for those of us that were trying to do our duty, right, where to find that virtuousness and violence and, and, and it just wasn't the opportunities seemed to be thwarted at every step. And, and, and you know, did you realize that init, like when it was happening or did it really set in later on?

Adam McLean (33:10)

I think it was there, you know, it was, it was there. I may not have fully known it at the time, but I felt it, it and you could see it, you know, when you're, when you're nervous about doing your job and engaging the enemy because that might get you thrown in jail, that, that blows your mind, right? Like it's, it's like, well, what are we even here for? If, you know, you tell me I'm, you know, you hand me this gun, you tell me that there's bad guys over there. And I go over there where there's bad guys and oh, by the way, you know, if you take out the bad guys and we don't like the way you did it, you're not going Leavenworth forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was, it was wild. And you know, I remember when we were out there, we had, we hadn't, we knew there was a motorcycle. We had intel there was a motorcycle, a 500 pound V bed. And lo and behold, as we're, you know, we're out there in, in Watkins Glen was the name of the operation. When we're, when we're out in Nautili, we, we had this riot happen where all these women and children were throwing rocks at our MRAPs and surrounding our vehicles and doing this and banging. And by the way, those kids could throw. You want to make peace over there, you teach them baseball because our in rats. You look at the glass and you thought maybe they were shot with AK fire or something. But no, it was. Those kids would throw rocks and they would shatter those bulletproof windows. Like it was insane.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (34:36)

My first trip over there, we were in desert patrol vehicles and it was so bad, the kids whipping rocks at us, that I had to rig up a pistol on my driver drive shaft and point my gun at kids who are picking up rocks because we thought we were gonna get like, like really hurt, man.

Adam McLean (34:53)

But, yeah, but, but to finish this story, I remember I'm up in the turret of our mrap and the motorcycle and we're all in a line. Like all our vehicles are in a line. We're rolling. This motorcycle just comes up and cruises next to all of us. I'm like in the middle of the vehicles. Like there was four or five vehicles behind me. There was another four or five in front of me. Does anyone take the shot on the motorcycle that was 10ft away from us?

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (35:15)

Nope.

Adam McLean (35:16)

That could have been the one that could have blown us all up. No, no one took a shot. Not a, not a damn soul took the shot. And we all knew there was a motorcycle that could have blown us up and if all he had to do was just swing into us, if that was the one. So that was just something I remember now. Did we take the fight to the enemy? Yes, it did happen. But was the fighting as did. Were we on a leash? Did we feel on a leash the whole time? Yes, yes, yes, we did. So. So it Was interesting to. To say the least with that.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (35:56)

But let me ask you this, Adam. As. As you. You know, you go in, you want to serve at the highest level. You want to serve in the infantry as a rifleman, in the Marine Corps. And, you know, all you got to do is look at history to prove that that is the most significant sense of service there is throughout our history as a nation, right? And so you do it. You do it. You do multiple cruises, right? One combat deployment, and you go back in, and then you get out. What was your temperament like in the middle from when you got out to when you wrote this. This. This book? Because something happened, and something happened so profoundly that you are able to. I don't know if it's looking past the experience of being leashed or whatever, but because the book itself is an absolute predicate for young men in particular, to feel the honor of what it would like, what it would feel like to serve and the responsibilities that come with carrying, you know, that mantle. Right? The mantle of being able to be violent, to wage war, and the profound impact it has on your psyche, on your honor, on your nobility. So try and explain to me and to the audience, you know, what took place in there for you to say, you know what? Even in the midst of all that, man, I'm going to write this thing. This. This. I don't want to call it a manifesto because it has such negative undertones to it, but it's. It's there. I know there's. There's a particular word for these types of. This type of literature. Like, it's. You know, it's. It's these pieces, these seminal pieces of wisdom that seem to implant in people in a deeper way.

Adam McLean (38:05)

You know, it's something changed, for sure. You know, it's a decade of life happened. The world's changed so much. Our country has changed so much. And in a way, I. It kind of started as I saw someone online. They. They. They were talking about how, you know, violence is never the answer. And I'm like, wait, you know, I see this all the time. I see people say this. You know, whether it's people going, oh, well, guns are bad. I mean, like, well, they're a tool. They're a tool of violence. But we've been killing each other very efficiently since the dawn of time. When, you know, when Grog discovered the rock, well, he figured out that that could be a murder weapon. So it's not that. Like, yeah, sure, our weapons have gotten more efficient, but. But something changed. And the reality is I knew that we had to meet violence with violence. And so it started off as just kind of like a response and me getting my thoughts together. But there was. I think what the big change was is I've changed a lot over the last 10 years because you have to. I had to change because, you know, when I got out of the military, I still, I went. I feel like I. I kind of regressed a lot in my life where I was. I was awaiting tables again, which is what I did before I enlisted. And this is. I was like, something's got to change. And so I, you know, I was like, hey, I got this GI Bill. Go back to school. And I got it. But what. Where it got important was all these things started building, building, building, building, right? Like this. This new life just started coming. And with that came responsibilities. And what I think finally changed my life, which was kind of just the completion of experiences, was, you know, having my family, my wife and my daughter, who are. Who are dependent on me. And so that made me go from, hey, my. My career isn't just spending money, right? Like, it's, it's not that. It's. It's. I have people who rely on me, and I can't. I cannot fail them. I'm. I'm the. I'm. I'm the only one responsible for. For making sure they're taken care of. And that, I realize, is just in the. Just seeing the tone of society where they're like, oh, you know, basically where they want. People want peace at any cost. Well, well, there's a price to pay for peace, for safety. And that's kind of where this comes from is. It's just, I guess the bit of growing up that had to be done. And so that's where a lot of this comes. And it's that core of just sometimes you. You have to fight to have what you're going to have, to protect what you have. And sometimes fighting is the right thing to do.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (41:22)

I love it. And I love that you decided to fight with. With, you know, your pros, too, and, and what that can conjure in. In the human mind. Can you. Can you talk a little bit about how the book evolved in your head? What your process was like, and why you, you know, why you're like, all right, I'm going to start this. Do this and put it out there?

Adam McLean (41:41)

Yeah. So. Well, it's. It literally started again as just I started typing up a response to, to what we had talked about of just this. Oh, we just have to have peace. Peace Peace. So, and then I'm like, wait, I just had more ideas kept coming, and, and what I did was all these things started coming, quotes started coming to me. And in my professional career, I live in Excel. And so I pulled up Excel on my computer and I did. I just started putting in my thoughts. Those thoughts became chapters, and I would, you know, I'd write them up and then I could move things around and figure out what I needed to where, where they needed to be for all the flow and to all make sense. After that, I spent a lot of time fighting with formatting, and then the COVID design was actually, it probably took me just as long to get the COVID as it did the book itself. But, yeah, that, I mean, that's, that's really, it was a simple process. It just, it, the, the writing itself was just pulling my ideas together and just putting all these things together. And quite frankly, I keep saying this is, I don't. The, the motivation was something bigger. Like, I, I, in some ways I'm like, did this even come from me? Yeah, you know, it's because some of the things I'm like, wait, I said that? Like, I did that or did I. I think you kind of get where, where I'm going with, with that is just something bigger comes to us, and the timing couldn't be more perfect. When I, when I first saw all, all the things going on that's been happening in the last couple months since I wrote this, I was like, was this. The world was. Oh, my God. I, I just made this book called When Violence Is Virtue. And there's just all this insanity happening. We got people getting assassinated and stabbed on buses and, and whatnot. But it turned out, I think when I had that initial fear, it kind of subsided because I'm like, wait, no, the way we have to fight, that is the point of the, this book, you know, that. That's it. It may take a heavy toll, but when we're, we're, we're in a fight. Now, these, these are words that are going to help us.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (44:10)

Oh, I, I completely agree. Because the way you, you know, I mean, obviously each one of these, these, you know, the chapters that you have in here and what you address, you know, there's, there's an infinite number of ways to project the depths of, of, of kind of the underlying meanings behind these in terms of, you know, I love how part one is mindset and principles. And so, you know, I, I, if it's all right, I, I just want to go through a couple of the Chapters that really jumped out for me and what. What your intention was so people can get a better. A better understanding of what you're meaning. And so for me, the first one that really popped was chapter five, the Warrior ethos code of the calm and dangerous. And you start out with this great Sun Tzu quote. The general who wins and wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is even fought. And you have these core principles of the warrior ethos. Courage, discipline, resilience, commitment, selflessness. Never accept defeat, Never quit. Loyalty, honor, and mission first. Can you talk a little bit about that ethos? And why is it important for people to contemplate that when they think about violence? So.

Adam McLean (45:40)

These are kind of takeaways I took from Steven Pressfield's book the Warrior Ethos. I don't know if you're familiar with it multiple times. Yeah, it. It was a powerful book that I remember I have two copies of it, and I first read it when I was in SOI school of infantry. And it was powerful. And these were my takeaways from it. And, you know, I could have done, you know, gone with like an acronym of the JJ did tie buckle, you know, but this, this I fel. Just let's not revisit that. Let's, you know, anyone can go find military acronyms and roll their eyes at them for days, but these are principles that I took away from that book and. And that we have to understand. And I start with courage. Why? As I talk about elsewhere in the book, courage is not an absence of fear. Bravery is not absence of fear. It's pushing through it because we have to. Which feeds into the discipline is I have to have the discipline to fight through things I'm scared of. And that all of these things, this is not just for combat. This is for life, right? Like, big job interview, you're gonna be scared of that, right? Like nervous going into it. That can change your life, right? Or just however else you can apply that next stages in your life. Maybe you're having a kid. That's scary. I mean, when my wife was pregnant, that was. That was life changing. I'm like, how am I gonna afford this? Give her space, you know, how am I gonna do this? And you have to do it. You just do it. I mean, it's. It's courage is just doing because you have, because no one else can but you. You're your only advocate, right? Like that, that was. That was kind of where we go with this. And there's other things we talk about in here is, they all flow together. Everything here flows together. Like, like everything, right? Like the, the selflessness, right. You have to do stuff for, for your family, right? Like it's, it's, you have to have that selflessness to take care of them. And it's kind of a growing experience there when you're rolling into that, that, that you have to have. And, and if you pull the principles like that together, this will help you anything, you know, in your, your entire life.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (48:33)

That's right. And I think, yeah, I think what, what I got, what I extrapolated from that is that if you have a framework, a framework of your virtues, right. It gives you barriers or a left and right flank to operate in. And I think that ethos is a great place to start and is applicable in other aspects of your life.

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Interviewer (David Rutherford) (53:02)

Learn more@probane.com you talked about fear and fear. I've spent a tremendous amount of time in what I teach out there. I teach a seminar called Embracing Fear and and I love the way you address it. In, in, in, in chapter seven, right. Bravery in the face of fear and acting through uncertainty. And you know, you, you write bravery isn't about feeling fearless, it's about acting through fear. Fear is managed through knowledge of self and the enemy and of purpose. Can you expound on that a little bit?

Adam McLean (53:41)

It absolutely. Life's uncertain and we both know that in the most literal sense. You know what, you make these great plans before you go out into combat, right. You know, we, we have these five paragraph orders. We have this great detailed plan. Well, the enemy gets to decide. They get to help decide how that's going to play out. And so once that combat begins, things change, right? Like you have to have that be fluid and again, that is way more applicable than just the battlefield. But we have to have that flexibility and we have to stand strong, you know, in that face of adversity. Because, you know, failure in, in the battlefield means death, right? Like if it's, it's that life or death game. And so that's where if you have to have that bravery and bravery, you have to have the courage to push through the fear and to make the hard decisions when it matters most. And, and I've kind of grown into that more. I mean, I was not a leader, you know, in Afghanistan. I was, I did get promoted to corporal, but I didn't have a team at the time. And so this was, this was things that I realized from just the time, you know, afterwards. Like so, so much of these, this book is not just me, right? Like, I'm certainly, I, I would never try to say that, you know, I'm a Smedley Butler or, you know, Dan Daly, you know, I'm, I, I don't put myself in that kind of warrior class, you know, or on that pantheon of. But I learned from good leaders, I learned from bad leaders. I learned especially from bad leaders. And that's where, where so much of this comes from is, is seeing that this is an ideal, right? Like this, this is building a philosophy that's shape that's I think shaped my life. But it had to be written out and does, does that.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (56:25)

Oh, it makes complete sense. And, and that's what I want to get to on this other aspect. We talked, you'd said you really were kind of inspired by kind of the malaise which had really permeated into our society, which now has led to, you know, open and growing violence in the civilian, in civilian settings, whether it's, you know, carjackings or homicide rates or it's political assassinations. Or it's people being jumped on the streets. You know, I, I think, you know, this, the chapter that really hit me with that was chapter nine, false peace, the danger of passivity. And you know, you say false peace is surrender dressed in virtue. It is the refusal to confront evil. Appeasement isn't peace. It's surrender in slow motion. And that, I think, was beautifully put. That was really powerful. Chamberlain's handshake with Hitler didn't prevent war and ensured it. So can you just give people a reference of, from a civilian perspective of what, how passivity can be reversed with this sense of virtue?

Adam McLean (57:48)

Yeah, you know, the. We, we sit here as society is coming to some very rough times, and when you hear people talk, comparing our country to falling into a situation where they compare it to the troubles in Ireland, you know, in the se. From the 70s, 80s and 90s, that is something we, we have to address. We can't let it come to that. And, but it seems it is, and we're going to have to fight it. Right? Like, we cannot allow this to keep going where we've had multiple assassination attempts on our president. Whether you like him or not, that doesn't give you carte blanche to try to murder him. We've had, we, we have conservative thought leaders, you know, that what happened with Charlie Kirk like this is there is such an amplification of violence, and we're gonna have to face it as a culture. We're gonna have to unify on this. We're gonna have to stand up together collectively and say no more. Does that mean we need to have troops on the street everywhere? A policeman on every corner? No, that's not what I'm calling for. But society is going to have to take a shift. We're going to have to, to take the deep look inside and see and address this rot that. That's coming or that has manifested itself. Do I have the answer for how to fix that, brother? I wish I did.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (59:52)

Well, I think it's pretty straightforward. And you, you, you reference it several other times in, in the book itself and throughout history as, as you know, the famous saying, you know, hard times create hard men, you know, which create easy times, which create weak men, which create hard times. You know, I think we've, we've come into that. And I think there's also a level of propaganda and manipulation of young people's minds, much like the Bolshevik Revolution or, you know, the, you know, Nationalist Socialist Party or whatever you want to go throughout history that people are like, you know, what we're gonna fight back what we interpret to be this oppression. And we're gonna, you know. Cause it's not lots of people that lead these revolts or create civil war. It's a few thousand. It's, you know, 4, 3 to 4,000 people. And with 25 million people that we let in the country in the last four years, you know, I just had an interview with Sarah Adams, who believes there's, there's hundreds, if not thousands of, you know, classically trained terrorists. You know, you could have narco terrorism, you could have Chinese terrorism, which is, I mean, already taking place with fentanyl, you know, and now you've put these maligned district attorneys in who allow people to go free 14 times that end up stabbing young girls on buses. Like, at some point there has to be an elevation of violence against those willing to commit violence on the quiet, you know, few the reluctant heroes, if you will. And, and you know, the thing that really, I think the, the, the. There's a restraint, I think from our side, not particularly from our GWAC guys. I think GWAC guys have, have been vividly identifying this for the past six years, I mean, seven years probably, and saying this is building, this is going to get out of control. You know, you guys are going to be victims or not, because we're prepared, we're paying attention. But there's this, this. What is it?

Adam McLean (62:07)

This.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (62:11)

Malignant societal malignant that has, you know, taken place, that has to be cut out and it requires violence. But there's also a component of this that I love, that you wrote about in chapter 13 and you said it's called the compassionate warrior. Strength and mercy. Right. And the strongest men I've known. This is what the quote you start out. The strongest men I've known could break bones with their hands and yet would wipe a child's tears with the same fingers. Can you describe a little bit about that chapter? And you know, power withheld ver is power mastered. Can you talk about that and what it will require?

Adam McLean (62:59)

It requ. So let's start with what it requires. Restraint is something that I think when it comes to this, the life or death restraint, it's something very few have experienced. Right. Like I, I remember once in Afghanistan, we were dealing with teenagers. Well, I mean, the youngest was probably about 12 or so. And I want. And that's fighting age males. Right. Like people don't understand that. And the rest of the world, I mean, you, I mean, you're, you're a fighting age male. If, you know, once you can hold that rifle.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (63:47)

Car jackings. Carjackings in Philadelphia went up 1700%. The average age of the carjacker was 13 to 15.

Adam McLean (63:54)

Aim. It's. Yeah. But until you have experienced aiming a rifle at what we would call a kid, a middle schooler, a high school kid, it's hard to explain, but when. If you have taken your safety selector and put it on fire and you're aiming your M16 at a kid that is no older than my. Than my stepdaughter, that was. That took a while to reconcile. And. And I. That's what I think this covers. Right? Like, think the Lord. I never had to do that. I was able to put my rifle back on safe. We de. Escalated the situation, but that still leaves a lasting memory on. On a machine, man. It doesn't go away. That. That. That's a. A traumatic experience of its own. And so you have to know, look at the situation and go, whatever. Is this situation worth killing someone over? Luckily, I was like, you know what? The piece of scrap metal they stole from her base, that's part of our perimeter. They're already. It's not hurting anything. We're out of here in a couple weeks anyway, guys, I don't care. Just. Just let them have their scrap metal because that's what it was over. But they were throwing rocks at us and attacking us, trying to just get away with a piece of scrap metal. So you know what, Timmy? Taliban have it. But. But that sort of restraint is something you have to know because. And I think it's easier to get it once you've had a kid. You know, it's. Hey, does my kid need harsh discipline here? Or do they need a hug and just to be calmed down and told what. What it. What the matter, what the problem is? So chapter 13 is a parenting book. Parenting chapter. I love it.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (66:02)

I love it. All right, last one to. To wrap it up and then let's close it out is chapter 14, Legacy. What do lo warriors le. And I love this part. The warrior does not. Doesn't fight for medals. He fights for those who will come after. A warrior's true victory is not in killing, but in what survives him. Character, family, values. The greatest gift a warrior leaves is the strength of those who follow. Talk a little bit about that.

Adam McLean (66:36)

Legacy is what matters. What are we leaving behind? What do we fight for? You know, everyone says they want a better tomorrow. Well, how are you making it happen? What have you done? Like, what are you going to be remembered for? Those. Those are. Are things that we we have to reconcile with ourselves, right? Like we. What did. What did we fight for, you know, when we were in the military serving our country? That may be something the history books will talk about forever. As for what the politics was, but at the end of the day, we. I think we ended up fighting for those who stood beside us.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (67:21)

Amen.

Adam McLean (67:22)

And more importantly, when, when, when, when I die, what is my daughter going to remember me for her? What did I do for her? Because that's what matters. So the big crux of why I wrote this book, that's it right there. The legacy.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (67:49)

Well, Adam, I think you have done that and then some. I'm excited to see how this book is going to continue to filter across not only GWAT veterans and active duty members and the Marine Corps and the teams and army and Air Force and every, Every, in my opinion, every, every active duty guy should read this book. It should be a part of their, their mandatory reading list. And, and for those that have served, I highly recommend it. I read it this week. It was phenomenal. Every single thing is well written, and it's to the point. And I just commend you, Adam, At.

Adam McLean (68:30)

At.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (68:31)

At. You know, deciding to hear that. Listen to that muse in your heart. And for putting this out, I really appreciate you coming on. Where can people find the book and how can they follow you? And what do you got next? Coming up.

Adam McLean (68:48)

Yeah, so what's next? Great question. I'll know when I get there. This is a whole new world for me. But the book can be found on. It's exclusively on Amazon right now. Now, you know, this was an indie publication, right? Like, I, I don't have, you know, a big publisher, but behind this, could that change? I would love to see it change. I would love to see this get distributed wider and broader. But right now, you can get it on Amazon, available as paperback or available as a Kindle, uh, revolution. And so I hope people go out there. I am on Twitter as Bang Switch 5000 is my. Is my at. So I. I am there. You can find me there. I should probably get a website going, right? Maybe. Maybe this is.

Interviewer (David Rutherford) (69:43)

Yeah, it'd be good if you start deciding to put these out on a regular basis. But, you know, I. There's no right or wrong way to do this, man. I've been in the game a long time. I've written a bunch of books. And, you know, I think this thing just is going to have a life of its own. And you just sit back and you let it happen. You keep going on with people's shows. You keep doing what you did here, you keep talking about it and, you know, you just ride it out and see what happens, man. Because you definitely have a talent with the way you can consolidate profound ideas that are consumable for people. And I just, again, I'm really proud, proud to have you on my show. Adam. Thank you.

Adam McLean (70:29)

Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me.

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