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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Whistleblower Professor Fired For Exposing DEI Corruption Scandal | Rick Addante | Ep. 52
02:43:43
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Commercial Announcer
This is an iHeart podcast.
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Ah, come on.
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Podcast Producer
Why is this taking so long?
- [00:07]
Rick Adante
This thing is ancient.
- [00:09]
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Co-host/Interviewer
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This thing moves.
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- [03:24]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
So one of the most difficult things that people go through in their life is when their integrity is questioned. When an opportunity or, or an unfortunate circumstance presents itself. On whether or not people are going to crumble or they're going to stand tall for what they believe in. My guest today is one of those people. And when you get to learn more about Rick and his story, you're going to understand why he thinks the way he does and the reason why he stood up for what he did in terms of the corruption that was taking place at Florida Tech. But what I really want you to listen to is I want you to listen to the breadth of, of knowledge that he has in terms of understanding how human beings function, what drives them from a neuroscience perspective, as well as what drives people to do certain things psychologically. So, without further ado, Rick, welcome to the show.
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Rick Adante
Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here.
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
You know, obviously the easiest place to start would be to just, you know, give us a quick synopsis of what took place at Florida Tech and, and how you got to the position you're in right now.
- [04:54]
Rick Adante
Sure. So for the past five years, I've been a faculty member at, excuse me, at Florida Institute of Technology. I've been a tenured professor of psychology. I'm a neuroscientist and also affiliate in the Department of Biomedical Engineering. And so for the past five years, I've been there teaching, conducting research, winning NIH awards and grants, publishing discoveries of the human brain, behavior, all that kind of good stuff. And through the course of events, I was basically made aware of the intention of our president and a cabal of related faculty members to conspire to defraud the citizens and the Governor of the state of Florida as well as the federal government by virtue of non compliance with federal and state directives for receiving state and federal funds to the tune of first $7 million specifically for a grant that had been essentially stipulated by Governor Ron DeSantis and then from the federal Department of Education by virtue of federal student loans. And I say that because that's what I was told by the president of the university. And he came to a meeting, after a first initial meeting, told us he was going to come to a meeting and tell us these things, of how he was going to fight back against the government in order to continue to do the prohibited activities of DEI and critical race theory, teaching and implementation in order to continue to receive the state and federal funds. And then he came and he did it. And I reported that we blew the whistle on that. And at that point, there was a handful of things that happened, but ultimately, I was terminated unannounced, without any due process, any notification from a tenured position. That was probably about six weeks ago. Left my family high and dry without medical insurance for my kids, salary, income, whatever. And, yeah, there's a whole lot to unpack there. But the gist of it was I caught the president of the Florida Institute of Technology coming to our meeting, telling us that he had a meeting at the governor's office of the state of Florida. Ron DeSantis was shaken down.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
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Rick Adante
By the governor and said, why are you so woke? He said, I didn't say anything. Committed sin of a mission.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
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Rick Adante
Went home and said, why don't we fight back?
- [07:29]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
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Rick Adante
And he came to our meeting to tell us how he was going to fight back.
- [07:32]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [07:33]
Rick Adante
And we're here in Florida. So this is fighting back against your tax money to get a $7 million grant. But then he went on to say, so the $7 million grant was the first story that came out from James o' Keefe and o' Keefe Media Group. They broke that in early April. But what we followed up with in subsequent stories from o' Keefe Media Group was that I basically found that it was way more than that, because the president went on to say, this is more than $7 million. He says, I don't mind losing it. If I lose it, we lose it. What I'm worried about losing is this federal student funding, which his vice president published in the student paper the next day was $69 million.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
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Rick Adante
Federal.
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Massive.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
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Rick Adante
That's a. That's a. And that's why. Right. If you like, we can handle $7 million somehow.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
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Rick Adante
But I don't want to lose $69 million because the vice president published in the student newspaper said, that'll shut our doors wow. And so that's what we were told. And what do you do when you're the unintending recipient of information of that magnitude and navigate conscience?
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I don't think you can. And I mean, obviously it hits you to a point where you recognize this isn't right. And I think the thing that pops into my mind is, you know, why did you think it wasn't right? What about the programs that they were trying to protect? Do you. Did you have a problem with like, I understand if it's a directive and you seem like an individual. We had a chat prior to coming on that. You know, you go by the letter of the law like this, if these are the rules, I'm going to follow the rules. And you identified that those rules had changed. And now you were saying this is not correct. And on top of them trying to pay you off, which is another. We'll get into that in a second. But, but you recognize, hey, this is not okay. But what about those rules? What specifically about those, those ideologies? Because I think that's fundamentally what's, what's the argument? And this is happening obviously at institutions all across the country and around the world.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
There's this DEI initiative, which is diversity, equity and inclus, and which is rooted in critical theory, critical race theory. So what about that is problematic for you?
- [10:10]
Rick Adante
That's a really good question. I'll try to answer it in three different layers. First, I would say you're right in that DEI stands for diversity, equity and inclusion. But it's.
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Can I one time just hop in? I'm sorry.
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Rick Adante
Oh, yeah.
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And just. Can you describe what your PhDs are? So. Because I want people to understand, it's. You're not just winging this from your back hip man. Like, this is. You've. You are an expert in psychology and neuroscience.
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Rick Adante
Well, as it happens, I'm also an expert in diversity as well. I was actually a diversity fellow of the American Psychological Association's Diversity Program in Neuroscience during my doctoral dissertation at UC Davis in the neuroscience PhD program. So my neuroscience degree was earned as a PhD at UC Davis. I was a young alum award winner at UC Davis. An undergraduate degree in psychology from the College of New Jersey. I did a first PhD program down here in Boca at Florida Institute or, excuse me, Florida Atlantic University center for Complex Systems and Brain Science. Before transferring over to UC Davis. I did a three year postdoctoral fellowship in neuroimaging at University of Texas Southwestern Medical School in Dallas and then was a faculty member at UT Dallas and School of Brain, behavioral and brain sciences. And then I've been so there are.
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
So there aren't many people out there that understand how the human mind works from a neurological level, biological level, psychological level. You think you, you've got that pretty, pretty well covered, huh?
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Rick Adante
Reasonably so. I'd say that there are absolutely people. Like, one of the things I always enjoyed about that journey in the world of neuroscience was, I will promise you that I was and always loved being the absolute dumbest guy in the room. Like, they're like, don't, don't get me wrong, like, yeah, like they're brilliant. Much smarter people than I out there. I think I was.
- [12:07]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, as he, he told me before he comes, because he's also a, a phenomenal collegiate wrestler as well too. He said I'm really just a, a knuckle dragon wrestler who, who got a couple degrees. That's how he described it.
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Rick Adante
Although I would say I definitely did not say phenomenal.
- [12:25]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Yes, I threw that in there.
- [12:26]
Rick Adante
Sorry. So this will be a slight tangent to answering your question about DEI and my neuroscience credentials, but just for point of full clarity, I was a walk on Division 3 Wrestler, which means if Division 3 is the bottom of Division 1, 2, 3, and JV is the bottom of that and the walk on is beneath that, I was that guy. Okay, so I was the walk on. And I took great pride though, as a walk on college wrestler at one of the top programs in the country that after four years I was the only one in my entire freshman class of blue chip recruits left standing who actually completed four years and never quit.
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
So you, you can, you can call it the bottom of the bottom of the bottom, but that's not the way I see it.
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Rick Adante
I was hit by a car in the middle of that 50 miles an hour and I still finished four years straight. And some of those guys, you know, injuries happened, you know, these, I'm not, you know, you know, it's not because they were just. Some guys quit, they're just quitters, but other guys, I mean, they just, things come up, you take a red shirt year happens I was the only guy left standing. And so, you know, for, I know you come from a strong background of never quitting and persevering through things like buds, you know, that kind of an ethos is what I, what I brought to the neuroscience.
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, and I think that's why you're able to keep going in the way you are, because you learn that on the mats and you don't learn that anywhere else. I really believe that Any combatives in particular? Wrestling or jiu jitsu? Who are you just learn so much about yourself and. And maybe after we get through all this other stuff, I want to spend some time. And your thoughts on performance and what that never quit mindset is like, if you're okay with it.
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Rick Adante
Oh, absolutely.
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Co-host/Interviewer
Great.
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Rick Adante
I mean, and I think that there's an indispensable element of you learn about suffering and how to suffer.
- [14:14]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
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Rick Adante
You know, in both of our walks of life.
- [14:15]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [14:16]
Rick Adante
And when you learn that sort of cheat code to the game, anything's possible.
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
All right, so we've established, you know, what you're talking about when it comes to the human mind. So let's talk about, then, dei. Critical Race theory. Back it all the way. Even critical theory.
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Rick Adante
So the answer to your question I was. I was getting at was that you said that DEI is rooted in diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I would push back and contend that it's. It's rooted in. In discrimination, it's rooted in exclusion, and it's rooted in a fundamental pattern that we see in, effectively, communists to control. They want to exclude people. They want to define them by how they're different, and they want to prioritize one group of people over another. They use that policy, whether it's DEI or Title 9 or any kind of element that it brushes up against, as a cudgel. To control us. To control you. They want to control you. They want to control what you do. But they can't do that without controlling what you say and what you think. And that's ultimately how it's manifested. That's how I've seen it manifested on campuses across the country. And it's part of the California, New.
- [15:42]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Jersey, California, Texas and Florida. So you've been how many in Florida? Two in Florida. So you've been at five major universities.
- [15:50]
Rick Adante
Yeah. And across the span of, like, what you might think of as, like, demographics, I've gone from public liberal arts colleges in New Jersey to the biggest, you know, broadest education system there is, which is Cal State, which is, I think, 400 or 500,000 students system wide. I was a tenured track professor there, ran a director of a neuroscience lab, and to the University of Texas, which is right there as, like, one of the biggest systems in the country. But that's. That's a little bit different profile than the Cal State system. And now I've been at a private technical school in Florida as well. So this is a universal kind of, like, pattern that we see, which Is this, this systemic use of things like Title IX and DEI as a weaponization. And so one of the things that have been popular in the news has been weaponization of government. And I'm glad to see that that's being addressed at the tip of the spear, the highest political levels, because the government was weaponized against presidents and his cabinet and other people like that. But one of the things that I always like to send as a message to the administration pursuing the correction of those weaponizations is the reminder that all the regular citizens are subjected to this weaponization too. This cudgel of discrimination and exclusion that, that hurts everyday Joe. That's, that hurts everybody at every no name like regional state school, that the weaponization of government has to be investigated or need or should be against the regular people who comprise the government of the people.
- [17:36]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I firmly agree. I mean there's endless stories about, you know, very high performing kids. And it's, I'm not just talking about white kids, it's Asian kids. It's all different types of kids that through the coveted idea of meritocracy and they believe that if they work as hard as humanly possible, they're going to get the opportunity to challenge. Right, to get in, in the arena, so to speak. And I, how soon did you start seeing this? Like, how far back does this go in your mind?
- [18:16]
Rick Adante
Anecdotally, I felt it as a student applying to colleges, applying to graduate schools, applying for fellowships and scholarships as, as a, I, I, I went to public school in New Jersey. I paid my way through School 100. Financed on my own between cash working as a landscaper and a bar back and a bouncer, like basically literally landscaping by day and bar fighting at night.
- [18:43]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [18:44]
Rick Adante
Paid cash, took loans for the rest of it. Took me 25 years to pay off those loans by virtue of support from the National Institute of Health grants I received. But you know, I felt like, and I'm sure that this is something that has resonated with a lot of people that no matter how hard you work, like it still seemed boxed out along that journey. I would sit in classes at Princeton for five years learning all sorts of things from their visiting speakers and college wrestler. I was a finalist for the Rhodes Scholarship in New Jersey in 2004 and I actually got interviewed by Cory Booker for it, but. Oh wow, yeah, he was the mayor of Newark at the time. And you know, so, so no matter how, no matter what we were doing, even at that point, so, so people need to unpack and the idea, that's very fresh the last 15 months or so, affirmative action was deemed illegal, but for generations beforehand, that was the law of the land. People thought it wasn't just good, but it was merited and, you know, like proper. And so you're always essentially racing against quotas.
- [19:55]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Is there a component to the, the, the initial construct of, of the idea that underprivileged under. Under, what do they call it? Underprivileged under served service minorities in areas in particular academic.
- [20:14]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [20:15]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That there, there really is an unfair system in place? Is, Is. Is there truth to that at all?
- [20:26]
Rick Adante
Yes, if you consider the promotion of any one race over another to be unfair. And I think, you know, I wasn't alive in previous eras, right. But I have, I'm very easily convinced, I have no doubt that they absolutely were subjected to discrimination. And I think discrimination is wrong, but I think discrimination of anyone is wrong. And that's part of the answer to your question of what's wrong with dei. It discriminates it. And this isn't for me, by the way. This is coming from executive orders from the White House, the Department of Justice Office of Civil Rights, and the United States Supreme Court, which has said it is wrong to do this and to discriminate upon anyone. Racism is not a cure for racism. It's not the fix. It's the problem. And so that's one of the problems that's wrong with it. And I grew up on public housing in Chicago. We had $1 a month rent. My mom was a single mom. And then I switched. I lived with a single dad. Like, we, we came from poorness, right? We were on food stamps. We were on government services. And, you know, like, there is, there is a really valuable place, I think, for supporting people from under service or under underserved backgrounds. But, you know, that doesn't mean that the manifestation of how these policies have emerged is correct, because it's not. And that's not me saying that. That's the Office of Civil Rights from the Department of Justice, 100%. And anybody who's, you know, had a sniff of culture over the last stretch of years has seen how this has gone awry. It's been used incorrectly. I've personally seen it on campus weaponized in many different ways. I mean, I've had students complain that I address a room full of women as ladies. Hey, ladies, you ready for class? Say majority women in class. They say that's, that's gender stereotypes.
- [22:12]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right?
- [22:14]
Rick Adante
You can't control someone's speech to that extent. While earlier telling me I shouldn't say you guys, which is the standard plural way of addressing.
- [22:22]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [22:22]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
You said that too on your interview with James, too, is that you talked about the guy's commentary as well. When you, when you were first entering academia, did you hear, did you hear the language first before the policy kind of laid down, when, when in your mind was the real shift where they had been testing the waters?
- [22:49]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [22:49]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
You date back when, when I was in college in the early 90s. Right. And it was political correctness.
- [22:55]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [22:55]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And that was the emergence of it. That's where it felt like academia in particular, probably sociologists. Right. And that whole department and the humanities were. Started to, you know, pull at the edges of what was feasible or possible with this critical theory stuff.
- [23:14]
Rick Adante
Yeah, I mean, I think like anything, like slowly and then all at once. So, you know, I started college in the year 2000. One thing I would say, and we talked about this briefly off air, but I think it's a, it's a applicable answer of an analogy. When did I start to see that? So after 9, 11, I was in Jersey. We had students at my university lose their parents.
- [23:37]
Co-host/Interviewer
Oh, wow.
- [23:38]
Rick Adante
You know, like, we were. They grew up across the river. They worked at the World Trade center. And I was there that Saturday, the 15th, thereafter, helping as a relief worker. And so.
- [23:49]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And you talked a little bit about. Just explain that a little bit so you can bring people to what that was like in that moment.
- [23:57]
Rick Adante
That was a. It was a very challenging. So if you remember that time, nobody knew really what was happening. So the World Trade center was attacked on a Tuesday. And I was there that Saturday, I think it was the 15th, and there it was locked down by the Marines for the most part, like, nobody really knew who hit us yet. And so we didn't really know what was happening. It was essentially a militarized environment.
- [24:21]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right, right. And.
- [24:22]
Rick Adante
And obviously there's bodies still alive as well. People were still survived under the rubble.
- [24:26]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [24:27]
Rick Adante
And we. Some guys that I lived with and worked with set up a bus to go up there and try to help. Now, it was boxed off, but somebody's mom worked for the Red Cross and she thought we could get. Get in. So we basically made fake IDs at the Red Cross, snuck in past the Marine line, walked down Canal street and, and did whatever we could in a small way to help and, and really just try to support the firefighters and the people there.
- [24:53]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [24:53]
Rick Adante
Who hadn't slept in three days.
- [24:55]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [24:55]
Rick Adante
And you could see, you could see, like, people's fingers written, like the writing on the. The windows of ash.
- [25:09]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Oh my gosh.
- [25:10]
Rick Adante
Of like Rip. Other friend.
- [25:12]
Co-host/Interviewer
Oh my gosh.
- [25:13]
Rick Adante
You know the firefighters.
- [25:14]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [25:14]
Rick Adante
And my brother is a firefighter now and outside of Austin. And I told him that when he was in training and stuff.
- [25:19]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [25:20]
Rick Adante
Like, it was, it was hard to see that. And like we didn't feel like we didn't. We give them water and food and try to help them. And you could. There at the rubble. You saw the site, you. But you.
- [25:31]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
The smell is what you had talked about.
- [25:32]
Rick Adante
Yeah. It's a very unique burn smell. It's not a good one. You don't want to smell it again.
- [25:40]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And it's a smell you never forget.
- [25:42]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [25:43]
Rick Adante
No. And so it was a very profound experience as a college kid at that age. We walked and I, I was telling Jesse Barnett this the other day they did that seal swim.
- [25:56]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [25:56]
Rick Adante
Not too long ago. Was it last week?
- [25:57]
Co-host/Interviewer
Last week.
- [25:58]
Rick Adante
And they had a parade. They walked. And what happened then is, is nobody really talked about this at that time. I don't know why the news never really covered it. But there is a street that you take to go to the World Trade center. It's called Canal street. And it was blocked off for miles because it was an obvious ground zero site. But we walked once. We snuck past essentially the marine guards, fake IDs, M16s and stuff.
- [26:26]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [26:26]
Rick Adante
We walk down that street. Now it's covered with tanks or not tanks. Big army trucks.
- [26:34]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [26:34]
Rick Adante
Might as well be tanks to us.
- [26:35]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right, right.
- [26:36]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Like we don't know anything. You know, OD Green is something that can kill you.
- [26:40]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [26:41]
Rick Adante
And we news trucks. But it's this boxed off line of lane for about a mile. But it's. And you walk there in surreal silence. But it wasn't exactly silent because the sides of the roads was packed with people cheering.
- [27:00]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [27:00]
Rick Adante
Every single first responder that walked in or walked out and that. We were stunned. It was a very somber moment, you know, and. And we didn't expect that at all. The news never talked about that. I've never seen it really featured in all that time. But there were New York citizens who 24 hours a day through the middle of the night, they would cheer for every single person that walked in and out. And, and especially the walking out part, because when you're walk. Walking out and leaving there destroyed like, like the, the firefighters or the rescue workers or the police, people who were searching for their friends, they were walking out either successful, which is not good.
- [27:39]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [27:40]
Rick Adante
Because they found things they didn't really want to see. Find they hadn't slept for days or they were walking out unsuccessful, which is also not massive, what they wanted to have happen, that, you know, they didn't find what they were looking for. And so to know that people were cheering for them that entire mile walk out, like. Like, we. It wasn't right for us because we weren't those people. Like, we. We didn't deserve that.
- [28:05]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [28:06]
Rick Adante
APPLAUSE and support. But you also couldn't tell the people. No. Yeah, you had, you had to.
- [28:10]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, they're there for their own reason as well, too.
- [28:12]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [28:13]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That it's that catharsis for them to support in any way they can. And, I mean, what. What more rudimentary way to support another by demonstrating an overt approval.
- [28:26]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [28:26]
Rick Adante
Yeah.
- [28:27]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
A kind of. APPLAUSE hey, good job. Great job.
- [28:30]
Rick Adante
It gives us. Give me the chills just thinking about. Because it was. It was so inappropriate for us because we didn't do anything deserving of that. But you couldn't tell them not to.
- [28:40]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [28:40]
Rick Adante
So you had to just take it, which is a weird thing to say. You had to take this credit for something that we didn't really deserve.
- [28:48]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [28:49]
Rick Adante
And it was very profound. It was very inspiring of the human spirit, I bet, because I took that away from it. Like, out of all that death and destruction, there was goodness and there is goodness in people.
- [29:00]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [29:01]
Rick Adante
And I think that, that, that is very important to remember in dark times.
- [29:04]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, I think it locks into us.
- [29:06]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [29:06]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And when you, you know, to go back to, you know, what you've pursued so vigorously over your adult life in terms of understanding the impacts of that, where it comes from, why it's important, how it alters our. Our brain chemistry, how it alters our cognition, how it enhances or, you know, ingrains neural pathways. I mean, that's the root of everything that you ended up becoming an expert in. And I think, you know, it's really interesting to me as you shared that with me, like, you know, in my mind, it's like, wow, how does a person become so. I mean, maybe infatuated is probably too strong of a word for it, but, I mean, it's certainly a. It's heavier than a focus, maybe not quite an obsession. It's that drive, Right, that we keep talking about, that motivational drive, that trigger in us. You know, I would imagine that that experience was a profound push for you to really understand how we function and what enables us to.
- [30:13]
Co-host/Interviewer
To.
- [30:13]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
To either, you know, endeavor to persevere within the 9 11, or what drives the creation of DEI, you know, I mean, I would imagine that.
- [30:24]
Rick Adante
I mean, I went home and I wanted to. I wanted to enlist. I was in my wrestling season. I was also jacked up. I had torn rotator cuffs and bad knee. Like. But, like. Like every young man at that age, you wanted to enlist. But I also thought, strangely enough at the time, like, I was a little worried about, like, not knowing who it was that did this. And I'm like. I'm like, oh. And I should say, too, there was something, like, in. In one of the parks, like, people just went missing.
- [30:50]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [30:51]
Rick Adante
There was, like, 3, 000 people missing at Union Square. I have pictures from a yellow Polaroid, like, disposable camera that day in Times Square. Just missing posters everywhere. So it was like. It seemed like the rapture. Like, people were just gone. They were there one moment and gone. Wow, the next. And I thought. And I mentioned this a few moments ago when we were chatting. I'm like, I had grown up in public housing. I had a really, really bad, abusive childhood. I ran away when I was 16, ended up in New Jersey, had rebuilt to get recruited at Princeton. Now I'm in college. I'm paying my way through. I'm like, I kind of wanted to finish something in my life that I started.
- [31:32]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [31:33]
Rick Adante
You know, I'd never been at the same school that I started at. They always transfer. So I'm like, I really wanted to finish college. And I thought as much. I want to enlist, like, September 16th or 12th.
- [31:45]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [31:45]
Rick Adante
After each of those two days, I'm like, if we're starting a land war in Asia, I'm pretty sure it'll be there in three years when I'm done.
- [31:52]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Certainly was.
- [31:53]
Rick Adante
And so I. That's. It kept me out in that respect. But I mentioned it as. When did I start to see these things happening on campuses?
- [32:00]
Co-host/Interviewer
Well.
- [32:02]
Rick Adante
Like, months after that. In New Jersey, at our school, where students had had parents pass away, they were not allowing students to fly the American flag out of the. In their dorm room windows. And the first. And it was a big story at the time. And they. They played it off like, oh, it's a fire code thing. So we brought out the fire chief from Trenton. He's like, no, that is not a fire code. You flag.
- [32:27]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [32:28]
Rick Adante
And the school did everything they could to wiggle their way out of it. I wrote an op ed in the paper for the school.
- [32:32]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I. Oh, my gosh.
- [32:33]
Rick Adante
I sent it to Tilt Meyer, who was the.
- [32:35]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Oh, my God.
- [32:36]
Rick Adante
Afterwards, when we were talking, I wrote an op ed. I tweeted It a couple of days ago because they're having the same flag issue right now in England with the St. George flag.
- [32:43]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right.
- [32:43]
Rick Adante
So I started seeing this happen back then. I, we were deeply enmeshed. And of course, like on the college campuses at the time, there was a big, you know, anti war movement that emerged through that process too. So you saw a lot of that kind of cultural buildup, but that was evident.
- [33:00]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Very anti war protests were not unique, though. I mean, we've been having for a long, long period. And you know, there is a component of that that is fair. It's right. It's your freedom of speech. And when you are in a college environment, that's when that activism is kind of planted.
- [33:17]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [33:17]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
But there's also a counter activism that can take place. Like people should be able to be as patriotic as they want, be able to counteract the elders.
- [33:27]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [33:27]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And that would be. That's, that's, that's the, that's the equality of that type of ideological stance.
- [33:36]
Rick Adante
Right. Well, and if you were, I don't know if you were in the service or civilian side at that time, but like, that's.
- [33:42]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I was in.
- [33:43]
Rick Adante
So at that time, certainly on campuses and in the civilian world there, this is when things started to emerge where part of that issue with the flag then on campus for the American flag was that you pulled it out of administrators. They finally started saying, well, it could be offensive to some people at that point. The, the boogeyman was Islam or Muslims.
- [34:02]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [34:02]
Rick Adante
Which, you know, you want to be fair and whatnot. So people, people were starting to sow those seeds of saying that America is bad, our symbol of freedom is bad, which is, by the way, like flying over every bridge and roadside. And certainly in New Jersey at the.
- [34:22]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Time, across the New York, Connecticut, the whole, on the whole country, I mean, you dry. I mean, in California, which was already moving towards a much, I think, more rapid progressivism than anywhere else. Every single house, every single building, every single.
- [34:38]
Rick Adante
It was inspiring.
- [34:39]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right. It brought people together. That's right.
- [34:42]
Rick Adante
In such a unique way. Because we, we are one. We're. We're a country of countrymen together. And, and it was already starting to have people claw that apart.
- [34:53]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [34:54]
Rick Adante
By saying that that's not a good symbol because it could offend somebody. And so that's when I started seeing things. And at the same time, you know, it's interesting that you asked that because I hadn't thought about it for probably 20 years, but during that time in 2002, thousand five. When I was in school there, there were a rash of these things that ended up being these false cases of what they called hate crimes.
- [35:18]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [35:18]
Rick Adante
Which was anathema to say back then.
- [35:21]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [35:21]
Rick Adante
But now it's 2025. We have an extraordinary documented record now of. Of Juicy Smolletts. It's right. It was. That was happening back then. And we were like 18, 19, 20.
- [35:34]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
The noose and NASCAR, the bubble wall.
- [35:36]
Rick Adante
We had it happen on my campus.
- [35:37]
Co-host/Interviewer
Really.
- [35:38]
Rick Adante
We had these things. We had teachings. Classes were canceled in 2002, 2003.
- [35:42]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [35:42]
Rick Adante
For like people who claimed that they had swastikas written on their doors, people who claimed that they had whatever, some attacks for their sexuality or something. And it turns out in all of them, they were fake.
- [35:55]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
All of them.
- [35:56]
Rick Adante
Like, they were like. And it's memory hole. People forget about that. But back then we saw it early enough. And that's when I started to see these things. And it. And then, you know, if you think about, you know, again, like culture, the cultural history of, say, affirmative action was built into the. The cultural psychological makeup and ethos as being valid, appropriate, proper and legal up until just about a year, about a.
- [36:24]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Year ago last summer.
- [36:24]
Rick Adante
People are wrestling with that, I think, psychologically, because they're like this thing that we thought was right. How do you psychologically handle now thinking that that's wrong? And so I think we're seeing some cultural clashes on that too. But I. What we're seeing now in DEI manifestations on campus is like the 10x steroid version of that, where if, like, affirmative action was Bud Light. This is butt heavy.
- [36:47]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [36:48]
Rick Adante
And.
- [36:48]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [36:49]
Rick Adante
What was gentle, so to speak, in affirmative action called some quotas. Trying to make sure people are balanced out, this and that, that people were kind of OK for a while, managing, like. All right. What is manifesting on college campuses now for everyone's children, grandkids and campuses, whatever, is not the protection of discrimination, but the providence. Providence of it.
- [37:19]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [37:20]
Rick Adante
And it's. That's what that came about in about 2010, after the midterm elections in 2010. They knew administratively that they had the goods and the political inertia to impose these draconian measures that no longer just protected people from discrimination. Which is great.
- [37:38]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [37:38]
Rick Adante
Awesome.
- [37:39]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [37:39]
Rick Adante
I don't want you discriminated. I don't want my other friends discriminated.
- [37:42]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [37:43]
Rick Adante
Who, you know, like, and. And I'm part Native American. Like, like, they, they. Nobody's talking about that. Because those are not things that we want to happen.
- [37:51]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [37:52]
Rick Adante
But what this DEI stuff is doing now is actually giving a preference and saying, hold these people back and push these other people forward.
- [38:01]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [38:01]
Rick Adante
That's a whole new level of steroids, so to speak, for sure, at a policy level. And that's what's so problematic about them because it's not about diversity, it's not about equity, it's not about inclusion. It's about hurting people by holding them back and preferring and pushing other people forward. That's essentially just communism. That's a mafia. That's however you want to conceptualize that. That's not. It's not American.
- [38:23]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I mean, it's absolutely communism. And that's. I think the key is, like, you go back and you start researching critical theory, right. And how that emerged, where it emerged, where it came out of, you know, and you've. You, you know, you've got. You take that back another step and you're, you know, you're four steps away from communism and.
- [38:44]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [38:44]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
You know, through the academia, people escaping, you know, communist places and, you know, East Germany and all these, you know, really areas were psychological development, the development of psychology, psychiatry, that type of thing that emerged.
- [39:01]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [39:02]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Late 1880s in Europe, Vienna in particular. And as it metastasized through, you know, those two kind of, you know, socialistic ideas, you know, they ended up coming over here and repopulating the universities. Now, I think it was able to keep in check for a long, long period of time because I think for a multitude of reasons. One, you know, the, the, the boards, you know, weren't as corrupt as they ultimately became. The money wasn't as big as it used to be. You know, and then I think probably in the 90s, you had this, you know, massive shift towards these. How do you get funding in? And did you notice it? And this is the. And we're kind of dancing around it. In your career progression, when did you start to see that it was rooted in the administrative area and correlated to federal dollars? And so there was a direct correlation to promote it as. Instead of just ideologically.
- [40:06]
Rick Adante
Well, goodness. I mean, so I was. I think I applied for a National Science foundation fellowship as a college student for the graduate research fellowship. I was an honorable mention for the grad program as an undergraduate. And even back then, and certainly in the time since, they required these diversity statements to be written, and they would have now taken hold in the subsequent decade that followed or so. And now they're on retreat again because people are realizing that that's what they were starting to Do. It was kind of like compelling your speech to say some sort of statement about, like, why you're gonna make sure that you have a commitment to social justice and diversity in order to get these funds.
- [40:53]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [40:54]
Rick Adante
And, you know, and that's grant money.
- [40:57]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's.
- [40:58]
Rick Adante
Oh, yeah.
- [40:58]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's everything.
- [40:59]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right?
- [40:59]
Rick Adante
Yeah, yeah. It's for faculty jobs.
- [41:01]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right.
- [41:01]
Rick Adante
For job. Graduate school admissions. I was on the admissions committee at. For the PhD program at UC Davis.
- [41:06]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [41:06]
Rick Adante
I've been on admissions committees all over the place.
- [41:08]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [41:08]
Rick Adante
Like. Yeah, like, that was. That was a part of it too. And so it's kind of like you're forcing people to do these. And I imagine in the military world it's similar for officer promotions or other things. Right. There are things that when you set the benchmarks, this is the tune that we're gonna play. People figure out how to dance to the tune.
- [41:28]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yes.
- [41:29]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
If you want to advance.
- [41:31]
Rick Adante
So those things were happening probably in parallel in those cultures. And, you know, so. So I started seeing that happen through those times. I saw Title IX get weaponized in so many different ways. When I. When I was a professor at UT Dallas, I had a student make a false claim and threat against me on Title IX in class. This is kind of a funny story. The. I was teaching a class and I get this email.
- [42:04]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
What was the class you were teaching?
- [42:08]
Rick Adante
Probably neurobiology or systems neuroscience or something.
- [42:12]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [42:13]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
A science class.
- [42:15]
Rick Adante
Oh, yeah, Straight up science.
- [42:16]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Science class. Where. Where theoretically there is no, you know, discrimination in science.
- [42:22]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [42:22]
Rick Adante
No, this is like, the name was behavioral neuroscience. So this, I get this. I get this email after class and there's 200 kids in the class. I get. You get a lot of emails and, you know, you love working with students. Like, I was. I'm a wrestling coach by. At heart and by trade. And like, that's why we do what we do. I like love to teach, to coach, to mentor.
- [42:39]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [42:39]
Rick Adante
All the stuff that, that you champion and are. And are a champion of yourself. So many good ways that. That I've benefited from listening and watching your stuff for so many years. And so the student comes, she sends me this email. It's like a night class. It's like eight o' clock now. Class is over. I get this email and. And it was something to the tune that she's like, I saw and heard what you said to me in class. I didn't know you felt that way. I feel the same way, too. It's only harassment if I report you. Here's my number. And I Looked like that. And I'm like. So I had just gotten engaged. My fiance had just left the country to start veterinary school in the island of Grenado, which we invaded in the 80s at that school at St. George Universe. So what? We had just gotten engaged. She had just gone to start that. And the first thing I did was I sent it to her. I'm like, you need to know that this just happened. You need to know it's not true.
- [43:34]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [43:35]
Rick Adante
And like. And you. The best. The funny part about it is I tell this story to students a lot now. I send her a picture of the student.
- [43:45]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [43:46]
Rick Adante
So that she knew this was not a problem.
- [43:49]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
It was an impossibility because she was a dog.
- [43:53]
Rick Adante
Like, it was. It was like.
- [43:54]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:55]
Rick Adante
Like it was so.
- [43:57]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And of course, motivation is, is. Is. Is. I mean, the fact that a student has the capacity for that setup is remarkable.
- [44:08]
Rick Adante
And because she was taught that there was a weaponization of Title 9.
- [44:10]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right.
- [44:11]
Rick Adante
Only the. I mean, look, people come on to people all the time.
- [44:15]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [44:15]
Rick Adante
Okay. They're adults on college campuses. Sometimes it's not right. But like. But the linchpin of the story is that this is an answer. This is why I say it doesn't answer your question. When did I start to see this turn of the screw to a weaponization. Like, I'm a junior, first year professor or whatever it was. And she is. She knows she has leverage over me by telling me it's only a problem if she reports me and that she won't report me. She'll. She'll essentially extort me.
- [44:45]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right.
- [44:46]
Rick Adante
To do what she wants me to do to her.
- [44:48]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [44:49]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And like, I mean, the manipulation level in that is. Is that's tier one.
- [44:54]
Rick Adante
Yeah. And. And so. But she was given the institutional knowledge to know that that was capable to hold people hostage to. And so I immediately sent it off to the Title nine director. You know, the university did their investigation. First thing I did was I sent it to my wife because, you know, she's thinking, you know, I've got this young fiance teaching classes with a bunch of college girls. Like, I have to be very, very respectful and fair to her. So I send it to her. I show her the picture. I'm like, this is not a problem. And it could become one for sure. Different kind of problem. They investigate that for a while. And I get a call from Title ix, and I should say, the student didn't know that I had been video recording my lectures in 2015. They were all on YouTube.
- [45:43]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Everything.
- [45:44]
Rick Adante
This is like way before zoom, way before the pandemic, I was like, innovating.
- [45:49]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yep.
- [45:50]
Rick Adante
Teaching methods.
- [45:51]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yep.
- [45:53]
Rick Adante
To put classes online.
- [45:55]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [45:56]
Rick Adante
So the whole darn thing is on video. And so this is why I felt so.
- [46:00]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm good.
- [46:01]
Rick Adante
Let's rock it.
- [46:02]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Yeah, let's.
- [46:03]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [46:04]
Rick Adante
You want to threaten me with a good time?
- [46:05]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, let's.
- [46:06]
Rick Adante
Let's. Let's have. Let's. Let's do this thing.
- [46:08]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [46:09]
Rick Adante
And so I send the video link to the title nine. They have it on tape. They have the whole class on tape.
- [46:13]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [46:13]
Rick Adante
It absolutely didn't happen. I never said anything to her. She's completely delusional and weaponizing a system. Title nine.
- [46:22]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
What happened to the girl?
- [46:24]
Rick Adante
So Title nine office calls me, they say, well, we looked into this. We interviewed the girl, Melissa was her name, and they said, and after 45 minutes, we're pretty convinced that you didn't do what she said you did.
- [46:39]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Pretty convinced, yeah.
- [46:40]
Rick Adante
And I'm like, 40. It took you 45 minutes. They said, well, we asked her in every way we knew just to make sure. I'm like, hold on here. I reported it as a victim. You turned this thing against me anyways.
- [46:51]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [46:52]
Rick Adante
And they did.
- [46:53]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Of course.
- [46:54]
Rick Adante
Thank heavens for that video recording.
- [46:56]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I don't know why anybody that's in any position where they. They have an exchange of. What do they call it when it's. It's a. There's a natural imbalance of power or whatever they call it. There's a technical term from it. I can't think of it right now. But anything where the power disbursement is profound.
- [47:18]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [47:19]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Mostly teacher to student.
- [47:20]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [47:21]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's where it's the minute. Or boss to junior employee.
- [47:25]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [47:25]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That type of malfeasance or what is it? It's. We call it in the military if an officer is manipulating a junior soldier, sailor, airman, marine. I forget what it was called. Oh, I'm just brain dead right now. Sorry. But. But that reality, right, is that power distribution. And then all of a sudden they know that people get that. And so you're experiencing. What year is that? 2015, approximately. Yeah, so. So that's like you're seeing it. And my point of all this, and I know the audience, if you're. If you're going, where the hell is Rut going? And I do have a tendency to go down rabbit hole. I'm laying a predicate so that you understand that Rick just did not wake up one day and say, you know what? To hell with all this. I'm sick of it. I'm going to fight back against.
- [48:17]
Rick Adante
No, this wasn't a suicide mission.
- [48:19]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
No, no.
- [48:19]
Rick Adante
At all.
- [48:20]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
This was a buildup. And. And the tolerance that you've had of it and trying to pursue your dream of being the best professor, coach, teacher you could be has. Has really been the predominant idea. And, And. And the. In the idea, you think, within this world of academia is that that type of initiative, that type of integrity, that type of. Of what is it? It's calibration.
- [48:54]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [48:54]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Because at any minute, we can deviate. I mean, that.
- [48:58]
Rick Adante
What was happening at that time, too, There was a. There was a fake rape cases emerging at University of Virginia with Jackie Coakley.
- [49:03]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Oh, my gosh.
- [49:04]
Rick Adante
That was happening at the same time.
- [49:06]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
So culture was starting. The Duke.
- [49:08]
Rick Adante
The Duke lacrosse. That was when I was in school. So that was happening in that earlier era. So you see these steps, and it's growing and growing. But the. But every single one of these things are generally found out to be a fraud. But we don't change course. They keep being allowed to happen. And so to answer your question, what did they do to her? So they. They're telling me on the phone, they're like, well, fine. She admitted she made it up. I'm like, yeah, I know. And they're like, she's crying. She's really sorry about it. I'm like, boohoo. They're like, do you think you can let her back in class? I think no. No. I can't be subjected to that. Professional risk.
- [49:45]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [49:46]
Rick Adante
Like, absolutely. Flipping out. Well, there's another guy who teaches a class. You think he could. She could just attend his lectures? Nope. We teach in different ways, different chapters, different absolute. They did everything they could organizationally, to who they now have proven is a victim. Me. I was victimized by false allegations.
- [50:02]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yep.
- [50:03]
Rick Adante
And the threat of weaponization and Title IX at grave professional harm. They've established. And I have. I literally. I had. They. They were so reluctant, but they had to send me a letter acknowledging that I was victimized.
- [50:19]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Wow.
- [50:19]
Rick Adante
And I saved it. Of course, they did everything they could to someone who they had to acknowledge was wronged to force her back into my class and make me continue to be subjected to that. And I just. I wouldn't have it. Absolutely not.
- [50:34]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [50:34]
Rick Adante
And so you start to see those things happening. So when. When we, like you were getting at, like, what are the implications? Why is it the problem, these DEI things? It's because it gives absolute gasoline to that fire. And it empowers the administrative and the policy based weaponization in that respect against people who are oftentimes innocent. And that is a problem. So when your first question you asked me is like, why did I think that was wrong? Well, DEI is wrong for some of the reasons that we've talked about it. I don't think it's good to discriminate upon anybody. Another reason I knew it was wrong was because when the President came and told us this, he acknowledged it was wrong. He said, I don't want to get caught, I don't want to see ourselves in court. I don't want to have this stuff use as evidence. Let's just change the words, don't. It really does put a target on our back. But let's make sure that we don't do it. We're going to try to compensate by building out a new degree program with this U.S. space Force, a Patrick Space Force base up by us so that we can, you know. And I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, hold on. So we're going to hide this from the Space Force? We're going to indoctrinate their guardians on the GI Bill and Pentagon funding to indoctrinate warriors.
- [51:48]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [51:49]
Rick Adante
No, so, so he's telling us that he doesn't want to, he said, I want to fight back. So when, when people are telling you, this is what we're told, but we can't, we shouldn't do these things to get caught doing what we shouldn't get caught doing, like right off the bat, that puts you in a really tough position ethically. And so that's the second, the second layer to your answer. It was like, how do I know? Why did I, how or why did I know it was wrong? I was like, well, he basically told us it was wrong.
- [52:20]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [52:21]
Rick Adante
He knew.
- [52:21]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Admission, admission is a, is a pretty concrete reality.
- [52:25]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [52:25]
Rick Adante
And so that's, that's a tough boat to sail in. And then, you know, third, like at a policy level, it's like, there's lots of policies we follow all the time. I'm sure there are policies on, in the military you follow and in life there's speeding limits that we think we should be able faster on the road.
- [52:42]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [52:42]
Rick Adante
You know what we do, we generally follow them. Like there's ways to challenge policies and like even if I was proud DEI and all that, like there's a way to challenge it, which is to sue the Trump administration or to fight back in the proper fashion, not to defraud people who've paid tax money to have money go towards grants to do A, and you're going to misappropriate it to do B. That's a whole other problem. And that's actually what was pitched to us in the meeting that happened beforehand. We were told this story of which then he came and told us in person. And we said, well, if you're gonna be our boss and you're gonna tell us. A written policy blasted out to the university. It says, we can't do this, but you're going to tell us, hey, make sure you do it right. Well, you're setting me up as the fall guy. I'm gonna get in trouble. So I said in the meeting, I said, can he put that in writing or come. He needs to come. And we need to hear that from the horse's mouth. I'm not going to get that through telephone game.
- [53:44]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah, that's.
- [53:45]
Rick Adante
He said it was okay for you to do this.
- [53:47]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [53:48]
Rick Adante
So he came to the meeting and he said, yeah, we want you to totally undermine this effectively. And he lied. And then he. Then he put out statements. When James o' Keefe caught him, he lied about the lies. He said those things weren't true.
- [53:59]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
They absolutely took it out of context. I love that response.
- [54:01]
Rick Adante
Absolutely garbage. I. So at the time, I hadn't become public as the whistleblower. They all knew it was me because of the way that the camera was angled.
- [54:08]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [54:08]
Rick Adante
And they all knew that.
- [54:09]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
It's easy to figure it out.
- [54:10]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [54:11]
Rick Adante
But I hadn't come public. There was no. They thought probably they could get away with the lie and. But I'm a witness. I was there. It was absolutely the context.
- [54:23]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [54:23]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
There was no mistaking it.
- [54:25]
Rick Adante
Absolutely not. And so James only had a chance to publish a few things I've published all over Twitter and in my substacks now. A bunch of additional videos.
- [54:33]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [54:33]
Rick Adante
Including the one I even just referred to here, where he's like, we're going to compensate by essentially getting some money from the Space force and getting DoD money to fill in the. There's a whole lot more to unpack on that story. And so three levels of which it's wrong. Wrong at a principal level of what? The thing is. Two, it's wrong because they told you it's wrong. Three, it's wrong because we still have to follow some policies. And there's a way to challenge that, and it's not by actively undermining it. And if you are going to actively undermine it. Don't hold the meeting and tell everybody to do it.
- [55:06]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [55:07]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's crazy.
- [55:08]
Rick Adante
Something you said too. Like, I, all of us, obviously, we, we are governed by laws and rules. We don't live in the anarchy state of nature. Chaos. You've. You've had to see what that looks like in real battle in third world countries where there is the state of nature and anarchy and that's. Order matters, rules and laws matter. But, like, you know, like, I'm perfectly comfortable in the gray. The gray is life. Like, you know, I. Black and white matters on some things for sure.
- [55:36]
Co-host/Interviewer
And.
- [55:37]
Rick Adante
Yeah, but at the same time, like, you know, like when we teach our children, like, they're going to be disappointed when they go to the world and they think everything is black and white because we.
- [55:45]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's where I'm at right now.
- [55:46]
Rick Adante
We have to live in the gray because life is great. There's texture, there's nuance. There are complications. There are. You know, like, I'm perfectly comfortable operating in the gray. Yeah, I mean, I basically did an undercover video. So, like the. But again, there are.
- [56:03]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, your whole existence has been to understand the gray and how we process the gray.
- [56:07]
Rick Adante
You mean the gray matter in between our ears.
- [56:09]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Thank you for acknowledging that little pun there. I appreciate that.
- [56:17]
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- [58:53]
Podcast Producer
Why is this taking so long?
- [58:55]
Rick Adante
This thing is ancient.
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- [59:30]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I think for me, the hardest aspect of teaching that gray area to people in particular people that you care about, people you're trying to influence, people you're coaching. You know I deal with it a lot with athletes, right? You know you're not as good as you think you are and you've got a lot more to go and these are the places you need to go and you're not going to get there unless you do these places, these things. But there's something that takes place within particular people that they either generate an illusion that they don't require those particulars and they can somehow jump ahead, or they continuously, you know, mislead themselves or they create this, as you know, this delusional construct of their own reality that that it's in the more they reinforce it, the further away it gets. And that's what this seems like what's happened, right? This has gotten so far away from what, the reality of what it is. Hey, we know these programs are actually, they're divisive, they're, they're racist in nature. They're picking one class of people over another. They're using the context of social justice or oppression or colonialism or whatever you construct of, of, of oppression that they're, they're, they're manipulating. And then, and then what happens is, is the managerial class that supports it ends up reinforcing it because dollars get connected to it. And you said it yourself, 69 million were affiliated with grants that had been already put in place from the US Federal government. Now, multiply that times every university. I mean, the most famous one right now is Harvard.
- [61:24]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right?
- [61:25]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
You look at Harvard's, you know, the Harvard Fund, which is essentially a private equity fund that's masquerading as a college right now. And, and, you know, Trump came in and says, you know what? You're not getting $9 billion or $7 billion in any chance, which essentially, you know, stops the, the, the, the capital intake to go out, invest in people like you to do the research, to flip it and to build the fund, because you're selling it to the companies that are all sitting there salivating over the research. So you're manipulating from the, the, the endpoint of who's going to get to do the research and why.
- [62:06]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [62:07]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Based on, you know, classifications that aren't meritocracy or based in meritocracy. Then you're manipulating the outcomes in many cases of the research that's emerging. Then you're, you're, you're, you're pilfering the, the intellectual property to fit it to the people that are going to play this corrupt game. And so the whole system becomes corrupt from that first initial, like, movement into the gray area.
- [62:38]
Rick Adante
Man, you're barking up the right tree for me on this. I, I think a lot about this.
- [62:43]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I bet you do. I think you think a lot about everything.
- [62:47]
Rick Adante
Yeah, sometimes that's the problem.
- [62:49]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Yeah, I mean, from the first moment we started chatting, it's like, whoa, this is one of the most complicated human beings I've ever met. Not in a bad way either. Like, like, man, you're. You. I don't think you. I mean, when you say you live in the gray, it's like, you know, every shade that's possibly conceivable.
- [63:07]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right?
- [63:07]
Rick Adante
Yeah.
- [63:08]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And, and you spend time analyzing each angle.
- [63:11]
Rick Adante
I spend time losing a lot of wrestling matches. I mean, in all seriousness, like, I know you do a lot of coaching and mentoring of people and kids. Like, don't, don't be like me at that. Like, sometimes when you, the athletes, when I coach, like, yeah, it's like you gotta turn off and go.
- [63:27]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [63:27]
Rick Adante
Sometimes, like. But anyways, let's wrap, let's wrap this.
- [63:31]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Up because I want to go to that. Because that's the thing that the, the institution has lost out on.
- [63:38]
Rick Adante
Well, yeah. And so if in you. And so, you know, what you were talking about there, when you talk about the losses or, you know, it made me think of a couple different things. The impact of those discriminatory practices, whatnot, the $500 million that Trump has fined Harvard for and these kind of things. I think that's great. I celebrate them and I thank them for taking such an important symbolic step. But Harvard's not going to lose sleep over $500 million, at least based on my knowledge of their endowment. Right. However, what has to be done and what hasn't not been done is doing what we said earlier, taking this to the smaller time places for all the small time people who are actually the voters who put them in to do these things and the people who are actually suffering. I'm pretty sure most of their voters aren't coming from Harvard and Columbia.
- [64:31]
Co-host/Interviewer
No.
- [64:32]
Rick Adante
So it's an absolutely indispensable, necessary, symbolic thing that has to be done at a policy level. However, I would say that how this has, how this kind of like, sloth of a discrimination beast has allowed to emerge in this story we've woven now from 2000 to 2025 has been a lack of accountability because of weakness. To impose accountability from leadership, middle managers, higher managers. And I think it crosses into those gray areas of whether you call it theology or spiritual elements, there is a weak, like, we have to be strong as leaders, as, as just as followers, as people to do the right thing and to hold accountable. So, for instance, it's like we talked about the $69 million. I didn't pull that number out of my hat. That's what I read at my university published in their newspaper, that they know that they are at risk of losing. But you know what? They're not losing sleep because, you know, nobody is having the backbone culturally and administratively in the government. Nobody's taking that money away from them. No, nobody ever does that. Like, it's like they say it, but it never happens. Yeah. So, you know, there's a level of weakness of holding accountable.
- [65:52]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, that's, you know, don't have don't send me down that. I mean, it's. It's astonishing. It's astonishing. And it goes back. Maybe. Maybe you can enlighten us on that. Like, where does that moral relativism initiate?
- [66:07]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [66:07]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Because that's what it is, right?
- [66:09]
Rick Adante
Yeah.
- [66:09]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
You get exposed at. So you growing up, you know, the way you did, it would make sense that you have a moral flexibility, but as you've matured, you've only refined that moral integrity more and more and more after each one of the situations that you've experienced at all these different levels.
- [66:37]
Rick Adante
I mean, I would say it's like there's a dichotomy in that. Like, there's a moral flexibility, but there's also, like, a moral inflexibility. As you learn right and wrong, Right. Right and wrong gets solidified as right and wrong. You learn how to be flexible in the spots that are ambiguous. Right? So, like, ambiguity is fine. Like, adults have to deal with ambiguity. Like, I think that's what discernment is. We don't. Maybe we can come back to discernment later. Because that spiritual level, you know, young, young men, young, young women, they need to be able to discern what is my path, what is. What is God's word showing me and telling me that's a difficult thing to wrestle with until you're too old. And now, now we can look back so we have that texture and season 100. But that is what discernment is. The gray, black and white becomes easier to see. But, you know, I faced a lot of adversity growing up. Like, I've. I've seen. I've seen my mom arrested.
- [67:30]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I.
- [67:31]
Rick Adante
For wrongfully. I've. I've wrestled with some really bad corruption and bad things that I saw and abuses happening to us as kids and to other kids, where you become crystallized in understanding what right and wrong is. And at that point, and I imagine combat does the same to you guys in certain respects, Right. You learn how to be morally flexible because there's a necessity to that.
- [67:55]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [67:55]
Rick Adante
But when you see things and when you see certain things, you're like, okay, like. Like you don't care what the loss is. It's like, demote me. Like, I don't care about my rank type of thing. Like, yeah, like, there are times where what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. And when you've already paid that price and watch what other people do, I suppose other people look at it differently, but I don't. And, you know, I had a Quip from a friend of mine laughing with me not too long ago. He's like, they really kind of pulled you out of hiding and made you go public with this by the, essentially the Barbra Streisand effect. They tried to buy you off for a hundred thousand dollars to silence me with a non NDA, non disparagement and promise never to sue them. I wasn't suing them and I wasn't talking about it and I wasn't, I was doing nothing. And instead they woke a sleeping giant. He's like, anyways. What he quipped. He's like, this is like, like they should have told the National Guard not to go after Rainbow 100%.
- [68:54]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Because, you know, 100% let them go.
- [68:57]
Rick Adante
You'll pick them up. You'll let him go pick them up.
- [69:00]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's pumping gas the next town and.
- [69:03]
Rick Adante
Everything is all right, just fine.
- [69:05]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right.
- [69:06]
Rick Adante
And, but, but when you make these crystallized moments of right and wrong.
- [69:10]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [69:11]
Rick Adante
With people who've had to suffer the back ends of, of what is right and what's wrong.
- [69:16]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, that's the question then. I mean, that's the question. And not to, to pivot on the, the most intense philosophical question that there is is other than like figuring out who am I and why am I here? But like what is the difference between right and wrong and how does that manifest or crystallize? I love how you use the word crystallize to where you, it's, it's, it's discernible every day.
- [69:44]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [69:44]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
For me, there was a long stretch where I didn't know what that was. And I, I, I, I gave myself the wide range of, of interpretation.
- [69:57]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [69:58]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And then, and then after, you know, an experience I had in Afghanistan, man, that I was really in question of it. And then I'm like, well, I don't know even where to begin to generate the foundation Now. Luckily for me, I chose religion, I chose Christianity, I chose Christ.
- [70:18]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [70:18]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And so that began this 10 year long exploration of, of what that looks like. Can I live up to that? Can I hold the standard of it? And then can it be iterable in my behavior day in and day out and you know, through God's that relationship and that confidence that came out of that, you know, in setting that cornerstone.
- [70:44]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [70:44]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I was able to get there, but it took a long time.
- [70:47]
Rick Adante
It sounds, I was thinking about this analogy driving down here because I know you have a military background and to me it's, it, it tracks with learning how to shoot in the Respect of like if you've never shot before, you go down on a range to a target. You know, like, you know like, like you're, you don't know how to control your breath.
- [71:06]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [71:06]
Rick Adante
You don't know how to control like there, there are so many things you don't know. Right. So, so you're, you, you're aiming for the mark of what's right and wrong. Like you're trying to find that but like you don't really have that guidance.
- [71:17]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [71:18]
Rick Adante
And so you can figure it out by practice. I'm sure there's some self made sharpshooters out there and you know, you don't want to be on the back end of them in a mountain. Like they're great.
- [71:27]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Lucas, the guy that was the YouTube gun guy who just lost his, his deal with the one armament, got T Rex arms or whatever. That guy, like, he takes a lot of, a lot of crap from operators out there, but that kid can shoot and he's self taught and he, he got better and better and better and better. And so I, I love the analogy.
- [71:47]
Rick Adante
But it's a caliber you calibrate through trial and error.
- [71:49]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [71:49]
Rick Adante
Right.
- [71:50]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right.
- [71:50]
Rick Adante
But what I'm getting at is that that's probably, it's not an effective way that you guys train people in the military at, from regular infantry to special forces in special operations. And what you guys do, the better way to sort of speak, to help guide someone to know what is right and wrong or hit the bullseye.
- [72:08]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right, right.
- [72:08]
Rick Adante
So sticking with the analogy.
- [72:10]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [72:10]
Rick Adante
Is to have guidance, to have a teacher, have a mentor, have, have peer mentors go through, have guidance, maybe a book how to shoot. How do you. Right. You codified these principles that you've learned through your trial and error. And you, and so you. Turns out when it comes to right and wrong, there's a book, a very.
- [72:28]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Very, A book that's been around a long time and for a reason.
- [72:32]
Rick Adante
Yeah.
- [72:32]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I mean I think the thing. One of the. There were two. They were like. There was. I read the, the Lee Strobel book when I was really in struggling with whether or not I could do it or not was like 2006 and I read the Case for Christ and I love, you know, he's a classically trained lawyer. He's an investigative journalist.
- [72:51]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [72:51]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
My dad was a lawyer. So you know, I love the idea of journalism. I love the idea of seeking out the truth of something and, and so that all made sense. And so like it put it in the framework that I could rationalize the, the, the magnitude of the miracle, I could say, all right, this guy believes it's true. But then, like, all right, now what do you do? And since then, it's become the shroud of turn, Right? That one. One, you know, that one just blew me away. I mean, that one, the guy that was just recently on Tucker Carlson. I mean, I was, I was a devout, like, I'm a devout believer, but that solidified it in a way I could never even imagine.
- [73:31]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right?
- [73:32]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And that's science, right? And then, and then there was. For me, it really was about the, the stories of the apostles. If regular men could allow the message to, to penetrate their perception of the world they live in, which was a harsh, harsh, brutal world, I mean, under Roman rule, you know, the whole thing. And then to fight against, you know, this, everybody who, who wanted this idea, this miracle to die.
- [74:08]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [74:09]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
You know, to, to end. To endeavor that and to, you know, to walk the corners of the earth and be crucified and upside down and ripped apart and all mar. You know, it's like if those regular dudes like me can do it and become apostolic in their nature.
- [74:25]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right?
- [74:26]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And I think that's what it is. It's the battle of nature and our. Our. Our. What is it?
- [74:31]
Co-host/Interviewer
Our. Our.
- [74:34]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
The miracle faith, right? When you mix those two to create that foundation, now all of a sudden you have a. Fr. Work with.
- [74:42]
Rick Adante
Yeah, it's, it's interesting that you, you mentioned that. It gives me so many different things to think about that I, I wanted to say, but like that same. All the testimony of the martyrs. I mean, that's, that's. So I'm, I'm Catholic. That's kind of the, the language that we use about the, the, the belief, right? How do we know it's true? So, like, a couple possibilities. One, they're all liars. They just made it up for whatever reason. Two, mass delusional effect scenario. Three, it's true. And, and so, you know, there's been lots of people who've kind of walked through those options and ruling out the first two things.
- [75:22]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Can you expound on the second one that you said? Mass.
- [75:24]
Rick Adante
Mass delusional sort of experience, like Mass.
- [75:27]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Dr. Robert Malone talked about mass formation psychosis as a result of COVID So can you just break that out a little bit and how you understand it so. Because I think what a lot of. And I don't mean to cut you off. I have a neuroscientist in front of me, so it's like a dream come true, by the way. So for people that don't get that because I think there's a lot of that taking place. Can you explain that?
- [75:50]
Rick Adante
Yeah. So in the respect of the theological example. So the idea is that you can have a bunch of people kind of engaged in sort of a group level hallucination of something.
- [76:09]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
The upcoming alien invasion. Well, I'm sorry, I got to stop talking.
- [76:15]
Rick Adante
There's, there's actually, you know, people have written about social contagion.
- [76:20]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yes.
- [76:20]
Rick Adante
Of things that we've now see may manifest and well, tranifestos and mass.
- [76:27]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
You know, I just reported on it yesterday. I went on, you know, playing buck show and talked about it.
- [76:32]
Rick Adante
There's was obviously the tragedy that was absolutely awful. And you know, how are people becoming deluded with the notion that they're trans and, and part of that is social contagion. This is kind of gets to that like mass level hysteria or hallucination that social media has facilitated in a whole new way because they don't all need to be people in the same place any longer. Which historically that's kind of what it was alluding to with the original followers of Christ, which is like this is some sort of like group level hallucination which you know, we can use hallucination in lots of ways. You could say an illusion. Like lots of people can be looking at the same thing and still mistake it. And that, that, that there's a normalcy to that. That's not a clinical level of a hallucination like in schizophrenia or anything.
- [77:21]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [77:22]
Rick Adante
But the idea is that you can still have a big group of people misunderstand something in an innocent way that's not the lying way. So right there you have your three options. The like these apostles and the followers and disciples, they, they're just lying. They made it right to. There was a group level innocent, not mal intended misrepresentation of, of an illusory experience.
- [77:49]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
The sermon on a mount feeding 5,000.
- [77:52]
Rick Adante
Well, those aren't mortals, those things. Probably. I don't. I think we probably even atheists could historically say those things happened.
- [77:59]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [77:59]
Rick Adante
A guy went on a mount and gave a lecture. Okay.
- [78:02]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
- [78:03]
Rick Adante
The issue is did he resurrect?
- [78:05]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [78:05]
Rick Adante
Did he bring Lazarus back from the dead?
- [78:07]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right.
- [78:07]
Rick Adante
Did he create the fish and loaves miracle like the miraculous elements?
- [78:12]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yep.
- [78:15]
Rick Adante
Or they're telling the truth. And so what you were saying this the testimony of the martyrs of. You know, one of the things that made me think of when you were saying that a good analogy. And like, I think a military context is like, so you guys do seer, right?
- [78:29]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Search, escape, rescue, evasion.
- [78:31]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [78:31]
Rick Adante
Right. Like torture.
- [78:32]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yep.
- [78:36]
Rick Adante
Most of. At least what I've heard as a civilian. Right. Is one of the, the mantras and lessons that come out of those things are that, no, nobody's a Superman. Everybody has a breaking point.
- [78:45]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I can tell you from, you know, I spent two years training case officers. Well, I should say they spent two years training me. And some of the guys I had access were part of enhanced interrogation rendition programs. And these, these were the most elite interrogators who've ever lived, in my opinion. And they always would laugh because, you know, I'd be like, you'd never break me, bro. And they just, like, they give me the, you know, that maniacal laugh and they're. And they would say, rut, everybody breaks.
- [79:17]
Rick Adante
Everybody breaks. And one of the things. And I actually like that we can weave in different themes and stories. I think we both kind of jam on the same vibe for that, but. So I did a mission for NASA where I lived in isolation and confinement for 45 days in the space capsule Johnson Space Center.
- [79:33]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Oh, my gosh.
- [79:33]
Rick Adante
And to understand what happens to humans in isolation and confinement during high stress, high stress, high pressure situations like long duration space flight to Mars and back. While you in the distinction, Rich. Right. Being from, like, maybe the things that you guys have done, you can't just look back and to say that the military records of how do people survive in isolation? So like, I talked with Colonel Charlie Plum.
- [79:58]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
He did four or five of my favorite human beings. We interviewed him on tnq. Probably one of my favorite human beings. And his story, his story was a story that changed me.
- [80:09]
Rick Adante
Yeah. As I brought, I got his book over there.
- [80:11]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [80:11]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's awesome.
- [80:12]
Rick Adante
And so, but it's like you can't necessarily draw on those.
- [80:14]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
For those, for those who don't know, Charlie Bum was an aviator, got shot down, was in the Hanoi Hilton for almost six years. Captain Stockdale, or Ben became Admiral Stockdale, tapped him to essentially be like the, the, the minister, the, the, the morale officer of, of this group in the Hanoi Hilton. And it's. I highly recommend. Look up Charlie Plum, look up his speeches, his bias book. He is the real deal.
- [80:40]
Rick Adante
Well, and for the younger generation, like, the Hanoi Hilton was a, A, A torture facility.
- [80:45]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [80:45]
Rick Adante
Absolute awful torture. They were tortured for years and years and years. Unspeakable things. And when he came home, his wife was remarried. Like, talk about A secondary level of breaking and heart torture. Like. And the man has nothing but impossible to break positive attitude that I can barely even comprehend. He's so inspiring.
- [81:06]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
It's love.
- [81:07]
Rick Adante
So like when you know so on, on the NASA side, we can't look to those examples because you have to survive in those situations. You don't have to still land a spaceship. You just.
- [81:22]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Oh, interesting.
- [81:23]
Rick Adante
Because you still have to be an operator.
- [81:24]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
You still have to be an operator.
- [81:25]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [81:26]
Rick Adante
So my, my buddy's a, a, a corrections officer in the Trenton Penn. With a bunch of mass murderers and like he, he holds order there. I'm like, you can't. I'm not sitting in a cell reading and doing push ups and pull ups for the entire duration. Like you are operating. You have to land successfully. You have to fly spaceships, maintain the craft. It's like, it's like being on a sub or a ship. Everything has to maintain ship shape, the water filtration, everything. You have to do that while you're in isolation confinement. Imagine doing that level while in Syria at the same time. It's a really difficult thing that we as humans, we've almost never had to wrestle with and we found that breaking point. It was only 45 day mission. Every single person I went in there with, like we all. And we're lying about it too. Like when we like we have to fill out our surveys. How are you guys doing? Oh, feeling great. Hundred percent.
- [82:10]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [82:11]
Rick Adante
We. I am falling asleep on the lunar lander and crashing, saying I feel great and like, wow.
- [82:18]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
What about the isolation? Because I think this is another main component of, of that we're seeing in young people performance. There's a, there's an isolation kind of emerging.
- [82:30]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [82:31]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
What about. Isolation causes disruption. The way we are, we can be operational in our focus.
- [82:39]
Rick Adante
Ah man. I mean that's a, it's a deep question with deep answers of layers.
- [82:45]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right, Right.
- [82:46]
Rick Adante
So sometimes, I mean sometimes I like. I'm sure everybody likes to be isolated at times, but.
- [82:50]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, especially my wife when I go on the road.
- [82:52]
Rick Adante
But like there's a but after a certain period of time like the.
- [82:56]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And by the way, she only because I never stopped talking to her.
- [82:59]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's the problem.
- [83:01]
Rick Adante
My wife is similarly afflicted. Yeah.
- [83:04]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
If we could only learn to be quiet more.
- [83:06]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right. Yeah.
- [83:07]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Yeah.
- [83:08]
Rick Adante
My best man gave a great wedding speech about how great of a listener my wife is.
- [83:12]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [83:13]
Rick Adante
And how it was going to work out just really well.
- [83:15]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's, that's you and me both. So thank God.
- [83:19]
Rick Adante
You know, when you're isolated in that respect. Some of the challenges psychologically is we do, we are social creatures even even the most isolated of people we work requirements you know interactions people sometimes for our just sanity checks for like it's, it's nice to have but then the problem too is you can be isolated with people. So if you're lack of a better analogy at a forward operating base with only five or six of you guys for a six month stretch or a one month stretch. Yeah those your best friends get on your nerves. And when I challenge you, when I give talks and like public speaking to things about these missions I always say look, it's hard to get a family of five to agree on what to order for dinner at the drive thru at McDonald's or wherever you're going. The people you love, it's hard to get along with in isolation for even a short period of time. How about not people you love just coworkers for a three year cycle to Mars and back. And it's not on Ernest Shackleton's expedition to the love that where you could be at each other's throats if necessary which is fine. Right. Like good teams allow that to happen.
- [84:34]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Because it's honest polices it police and.
- [84:36]
Rick Adante
You get it out. And so I'm a wrestler like I like combat and I had we, we fought our best friends every single day. Punches, neck chokes like and when you're done like you shake hands and you love each other and we go out for beers and we're literal roommates but so I understand that iron sharpening of iron as that being a good loving facet to teamwork. If you're holding each other accountable and helping each other to grow and testing each other in the right ways. Right. There's a way that you badger too hard hard right. There's toxicity that you need to have a barrier that things can go south on but unshackled and you can come up for air and get that cold air and see the beautiful lands. You can't do it in a spaceship. There's nothing. It's black right. It's not like like so there's really weird things people don't think about of that kind of a trip that humans have never had to wrestle with. You still have to be an operator and perform. You can't go out and get fresh air. You can't you. There's no escape. And and I have a friend of mine who's a marriage and family therapist and I said what would. How would you run your therapy if you couldn't advocate divorce. Sounds weird because she's. You think that marriage and family therapists would advocate staying together. But her first response, she's like, no, there's such abusive situations. Like I have to advocate they separate.
- [86:06]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [86:06]
Rick Adante
Like that's not a solution. How do you solve it?
- [86:08]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [86:09]
Rick Adante
How do you.
- [86:10]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [86:10]
Rick Adante
It's not. You can't.
- [86:11]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, you can't, because you can't turn.
- [86:13]
Rick Adante
Around, you can't go back, you can't quit, you can't resign, you can't fire the person.
- [86:17]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [86:18]
Rick Adante
Fundamentally different human experience.
- [86:20]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yep.
- [86:21]
Rick Adante
And you can kick somebody out of buds. You can, you can. They can quit.
- [86:25]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And that actually, that actually frees, frees up the consciousness of the collective to move forward, to continue pushing because, you know the dead weight is being jettisoned.
- [86:38]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [86:38]
Rick Adante
You use a different strategy.
- [86:40]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right.
- [86:41]
Rick Adante
How. How would you, how would you survive a mission to Mars if, if you, if you could, if you had to go with some of the people from buds that were dropped.
- [86:50]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I mean, initially, I mean, I, I guess there's, there's a sequence. First you have to establish. These are the, these are the ground rules. If you break the ground rules, here are the consequences.
- [87:02]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [87:02]
Rick Adante
But the consequences are limited because you can't. The things we're used to on Earth, you can, you can't kick them out. You're not gonna.
- [87:08]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, no, but it, I think the consequence I'm talking about is the level of violence that can be applied, which.
- [87:15]
Rick Adante
Is also very limited in space because you don't really.
- [87:17]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, you're not going to be like bashing people's brains in. You might. Well, that's the. I guess that's the greatest fear of that. That's the. Because that's the farthest it could be degrade. And that's what we're trying to epitome of, violence.
- [87:30]
Rick Adante
That's why we do the missions now on the ground. We're doing these. They're fake, they're simulations.
- [87:33]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Yeah.
- [87:33]
Rick Adante
I always, I have a NASA flight suit, but I always tell people, like, especially at talks where I get confused as an astronaut. I'm like, I'm fake. Like, this is a pretend. Because simulations are really important. It's real. Like every world, a flight simulator.
- [87:45]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Your pilots like rehearsals all time. That's what the whole gist of, of being successful at any level in performance is rehearsal.
- [87:52]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [87:53]
Rick Adante
So like, that's why we're doing this, to make sure that we have a successful mission where you go. And so all of which is to Say, bring it back to the apostles if they were in seer and getting tortured or these missions. Because every person has a breaking point except them, Right? They gave.
- [88:10]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
The breaking point was death.
- [88:12]
Rick Adante
They were filleted alive. St. Stephen, I think was. St. John was boiled in oil. They're crucified, upset. Every single thing that would test them, that would. In your world of interrogations and POWs, they. They didn't break. And that is evidence of truth. Because they would have broken. They would have said, no, no, guys, fine, we made it up. Fine, we stole the body.
- [88:39]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
They would have capitulated.
- [88:40]
Rick Adante
That was the point.
- [88:41]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [88:41]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Yeah, that was the point. That's right.
- [88:43]
Rick Adante
Like when the apostles were tortured and martyred and yes, they were having that happen because they testified to watching a person come back from the dead and continue to work miracles and then ascend into heaven and promise to come back. And people said, yeah, we, we will pr. We will send you to our Gitmo.
- [89:02]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [89:03]
Rick Adante
And we will break you and we will get you to recant. And you told me that you, you just said it. So you just said you had. You had the best guys in the absolute world who can get anyone to recant.
- [89:15]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [89:17]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
But not them. So is that, does that become the basis of, of like, of the research? Like how do you get the astronaut to be a. A to their faith in the mission is so. Eclipses all cell sense of self preservation. How do you get them to do it? Is it. Is it conditioning? Is it imprinting? Is it, Is it, Is it. Because I think this is this, this is what we're talking about in the whole thing.
- [89:53]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right?
- [89:53]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
This is what we're talking about. We're talking about the assault on truth and the ability to not back down when it's the hardest. I mean, that's the whole gist of why you initially came on. That's why I wanted to explore it at this level.
- [90:10]
Rick Adante
Yeah.
- [90:11]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
So is that, is, is, is that, is that for, for anybody in their quest for truth or purpose or meaning or whatever? Because I think the quest becomes to live in a state of truth. Right. That's the ultimate sense of that. You're. You have meaning in life. If you can look at yourself in the mirror and say, I. I am living a life in pursuit of truth. And then, you know, I. And then the, the, the.
- [90:37]
Co-host/Interviewer
The.
- [90:38]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
What is it? The ideation of truth is, is emblematic of a moral structure.
- [90:43]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [90:43]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And you can live and that way we don't degrade into chaos and mass, you know.
- [90:47]
Rick Adante
Yeah.
- [90:47]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
The 20th century.
- [90:48]
Rick Adante
We're talking about this as like middle aged men using the, the, the concepts that we have developed as old guys essentially. Like I think, say for instance, lack of a better number, 20 year olds, I think they have that, but it's unconscious and they don't think about it in the same. Like they're not necessarily going to have that same conversation with the words we're using, but they're doing the same thing. They're, everyone is on their path seeking that. And what I would say to them is that you will get to that point of this realization that you're saying and that we're talking about, which is how do you know what's true? Because when you're young, you're going through life because you're being pushed through growing up in the system and what have you, but you're, you're not always thinking about what's true at the deeper philosophical level unless some people do. Right. But like most people probably aren't, you know, you're going out, having a good time or what have you. But what ends up happening, that I've seen, I've experienced and sounds like it's tracking with what you're saying too, is that you start to develop, excuse me, this, this notion that you're looking at the world you're living in, you're like, this doesn't seem real. Or what is real about it? I mean philosophically, that's what Descartes asked and he said 100 what's real? I think, therefore I am.
- [92:12]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [92:13]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, 10 years in a cabin in isolation.
- [92:16]
Rick Adante
Well, yeah, yeah, right. And so you know, like your question was.
- [92:22]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, it's, it's the acceptance of metacognition. If I can think about thinking and do it in a systematic way that I can ground myself in truth, whatever the truth you choose is, then I have a shot at a, at a healthy framework of reality.
- [92:42]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [92:42]
Rick Adante
I have a little bit of data for you. I'll come back to on that in a second because.
- [92:45]
Co-host/Interviewer
All right.
- [92:45]
Rick Adante
I published a study on that actually.
- [92:47]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Oh, I knew you did.
- [92:48]
Co-host/Interviewer
All right.
- [92:49]
Rick Adante
I, but, but you asked like, how do we get the astronauts to that point? And I would say my answer is that it's the, the end, that the question is actually the opposite. The astronauts already at that point when you launch, like, it's like, it's like when you, like I don't, I haven't served in the way that you guys have served. But like I imagine when you, when you first deploy, like you're feeling pretty good. You're excited, Go get some.
- [93:17]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I was scared. Like, initially I was good. But then the reality of combat hit me because on the way over, a friend of mine, Matt Bourgeois, was blown up. And then it, then it was like.
- [93:28]
Rick Adante
Oh yeah, that's what I'm talking. Like when you, like the beginning, everything's exciting. The astronauts have been trained. They're already at that point of like max resilience.
- [93:39]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yes.
- [93:39]
Rick Adante
Like you are fortified. The question that we don't have, the question the best that we are asking scientifically that we were running these missions and these simulations to study and to find the answer to, is how do we prevent the breakdowns that. Because you're starting off at a ceiling.
- [93:57]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [93:58]
Rick Adante
What happens is like you just said, at some point it could be immediately upon deployment, there's a degradation. And you're like, whether it's a long term slow roll degradation or an immediate, like, oh crap, you're Matt was his name. Like, that's a fast degradation.
- [94:14]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right?
- [94:14]
Rick Adante
Oh, this is a wake up call now. I, I get it. And it's different. We need to understand as, as a science and a culture, how do we make sure that we don't have that degradation or, or really accept that it's going to happen. But what NASA's words they use are developed countermeasures for. So there's lots of countermeasures for these, what they call deficits in behavioral health. So, and I actually think that's, that's an important framework because we can't go in there like to seer thinking that we're going to be the superman who won't break.
- [94:48]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [94:48]
Rick Adante
We have to accept this will happen. The degradation will occur. We will break down. What we need to do is be prepared for a, mitigating it, two, knowing what to do when it happens and three, overcoming it to be able to continue to absorb, ensure mission success.
- [95:04]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [95:05]
Rick Adante
And the mission success happens because we've been successful with the people. So we don't have great answers. That's why we're running these studies. And part of that goes back to, you know, when astronauts will come back from space. They'd ask them, you know, how things went, particularly during the short mission era of the shuttles. And the sort of the running quip was that like there was no bigger group of liars in the world because everyone's like, oh, it went great.
- [95:28]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [95:29]
Rick Adante
Because nobody wants to admit that there was a problem interpersonally or interdynamically with the team because then it's like, well, maybe I won't get picked up for the next mission. I don't get a second trip out of space. Right.
- [95:39]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, it's the same thing with us.
- [95:40]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [95:40]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I mean, you get the guy who's at his 10th deployment, you know, he's been operating for 17 straight years in the G wat he's fried, you know, from an endocrine probability, from an endocrine system. He's got massive traumatic brain injury from blast wave exposure. His orthopedic, you know, pain is off the charts, right? He's not sleeping. He's got migraines. He's got vestibulos, vestibular issues. He's got everything that falls within the, the, the. The component of, of operator syndrome.
- [96:14]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right?
- [96:14]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And then he's got the mental health stuff as well, too. The survivor's guilt, the lack of intimacy with his home life, you know, the sense of never being able to maximize the experience, the existential experience he felt in combat anywhere else. So it's like this whole. But what do you. You ask and you see it on people, right? You see it. That's the one unique thing about where you really, I think the higher degree of, of maybe not empathy or compassion, but the higher awareness of those that you care about. You know, them, you know their baselines, you know their highs, their lows, and you see it happening and you go, are you okay? I'm fine. I'm fine.
- [96:58]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah, that's right.
- [97:00]
Rick Adante
And, and for lots of reasons. One of it, you don't want to admit that there's something wrong. Two, you don't want to miss the chance for the next thing too come off the line, you know, and so they built these missions out because, you know, they still know that there are interpersonal problems or team dynamics or, like, things happen, right? We're humans, and so they're like, we can't have this happen on the long trip. Like, this has to be fleshed out, and we have to first build a culture to where it's acceptable to tell the truth, that things didn't go well. And, you know, organizationally within, like the, the Hot Wash app, like, you have to be able to come back and be like, I can speak the truth, and I know it's not going to affect getting access to the next mission. That's a tough thing to build for sure. But, you know, and I can't even imagine what some of those guys would come back with if everything you just, just described. I know when I came back from the, the mission I did, there were Challenges that I generally tend not to get into just out of respect for some facets of the mission and the team. But.
- [98:05]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [98:06]
Rick Adante
There were times I was, I was an anvil to a hammer. And, and, and, and, and I felt that way at.
- [98:14]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
It's funny you say that, man. I, I actually talk about the choice of being the anvil or the hammer in your life, man, because that's, And I had this young man who I've known a long time, mentored him a long time. He's being medically retired from, from a tier one unit. And as he was going through that, the, the process of the training to get into this unit, like he was midway through and he gave me that analogy. He's like. Because I'm like. Because he was telling me the, the insane physical pressures that were, they were putting them on, on top of the emotional and cognitive requirements for the operational requirement.
- [98:55]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [98:56]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
You can't miss. You can't make the wrong step. There was no latitude in this level of life and death. And, and he says, I remember him saying, he's like, right. He's like, it's making the choice are you going to be the anvil?
- [99:13]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right?
- [99:14]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Are you going to place yourself on the anvil? Or, or are you going to have life place you on the anvil? And that either way you're getting the hammer no matter what. So what. How are you going to perceive it?
- [99:26]
Rick Adante
Well, and I, and, and I took great pride in that respect of being. So. I'm the oldest of seven in my family.
- [99:33]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [99:34]
Rick Adante
I was my, that dad went awol. Like I have parental child. I, I've been an anvil in a lot of ways for a lot of things for a lot of people. And you look at it exactly as you said. There's a choice of a way in which you look at it. Anvils are immensely strong.
- [99:51]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [99:51]
Rick Adante
Anvils absorb a lot of pain and pressure because they're strong. They, they're strong. And so that's a positive thing. And you know that analogy from that mission, you know, I did that to help the mission move forward so that others didn't have to be the anvil.
- [100:18]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [100:18]
Rick Adante
And interesting. And I was proud to do. That's right, that's, that's right. That. But, but it, you know, it still came at a. You bottle a lot up. That came at a big cost. So like when I came home from the mission, like, it wasn't anything like you guys have done or the duration or extent, but like, it was weird. Like I, I generally like I couldn't really talk to people about it.
- [100:44]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [100:45]
Rick Adante
And that's the toughest part. And if I did, they wouldn't. Still wouldn't get it. And, and, or you'd get, like, trite answers of, like, cliches and.
- [100:54]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [100:55]
Rick Adante
And you're appreciative of the effort, but, like, you know, it.
- [100:59]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
It's not the genuine curiosity.
- [101:01]
Rick Adante
No. And I would just sit in the dark sometimes in my apartment by myself and just enjoy it.
- [101:06]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [101:06]
Rick Adante
Of like.
- [101:07]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [101:07]
Rick Adante
Because you're just processing stuff and you're working through things, and so, like, have enormous respect for what those guys must handle because, you know, like, in wrestling, we teach young boys and men that they need to be absolute savages on a mat. And. And, you know, killers on the mat.
- [101:28]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [101:28]
Rick Adante
Well, you know, within boundaries, within rules.
- [101:30]
Co-host/Interviewer
But. Yeah.
- [101:30]
Rick Adante
Such as life. But.
- [101:31]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [101:31]
Rick Adante
But it's. We also teach them as coaches and teachers and in the framework of the education system that when you step off that mat, you were a gentleman.
- [101:38]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [101:39]
Rick Adante
And so.
- [101:39]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [101:40]
Rick Adante
The economy.
- [101:40]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's the thing.
- [101:42]
Rick Adante
So that's what I hear when you guys come back and you're like. I just, you know, I was. I was reading Eddie Penny's book. He's like. So I come back and I'm driving like crazy around back.
- [101:50]
Co-host/Interviewer
I.
- [101:50]
Rick Adante
And I come back and. And I'm. And people look at me like I'm a savage because I'm like. And he's like, I. Yeah, I guess. I guess I need to recalibrate that.
- [101:58]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [101:59]
Rick Adante
Because there's these dual messages. You. It's.
- [102:02]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, that's. That's like you. I mean, the perfect description is you. You build a tool, and the human is the tool for a particular mission.
- [102:14]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [102:15]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And. And the most extreme missions require the most extreme. Like you said, pressure, heat, pain.
- [102:26]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [102:27]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And so you're. What are you doing? I think there's a natural, innate. Maybe levity is not. Not the right word. There's a. There's a. A natural component of the human condition that is affiliated with the ease of interaction, the. The facilitation of. Of. Of reciprocal emotion.
- [102:52]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [102:53]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Those back and forth that make life enjoyable.
- [102:56]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [102:56]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
The. The pursuit of happiness, if you want to call it that.
- [102:59]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [102:59]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Those guys were pretty smart, but it's. It's. Man. There's a lot of other missions that. That's not conducive. So we have to do these other things to get the result.
- [103:10]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [103:11]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
To test what's underneath that.
- [103:14]
Rick Adante
It's an extraordinary Burden that are put on our war fighters to come home. And then said, just now, be normal. Flip that switch off.
- [103:24]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [103:25]
Rick Adante
And be normal to people. And, you know, like, your family just wants their dad. Like, they don't want. Like, you know, it's just. It's such a weird contrast. It's very difficult to wrestle with.
- [103:38]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I think we're doing. We're. We're dealing with that in a. In a pretty profound societal way right now. We've been. We've been put on the anvil in all these different ideas, ideological. These forced ideological influences. And now what's happening is we're like, no, we're. We're. The degradation of.
- [104:03]
Co-host/Interviewer
Not.
- [104:03]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Not that it wouldn't be the degradation. It'd be the emergence of that. That morality, that core stuff that you worked so hard from Chicago in wrestling, through academia, through the national mission, and then into that moment where you are now where it's like, no, I had to do what I did because of all of this.
- [104:27]
Rick Adante
Yeah. And if I can riff on that for a moment, the. There's. There's a. A lot I. I could unpack on it. That, you know, one level, when I would go through, I had a couple different instances in which things came up of real ethical challenges or quandaries, just difficult things like mountains I didn't want to climb. And I thought to myself, you know, like, this is so hard to do. But then I thought, like, but I've been through so much. If what I have been through isn't enough to prepare someone for this, then nothing would be. So then I should do this, because no one will if not. And so the past was God preparing me for the future with the strength. Because to answer your question, how do you make those decisions in the gray, the discernment? How do you do what's right and wrong? And there are some really big times in life of right and wrong, like when life and death changes on it. And that might be living or dying, but it could also just be someone's life and death of where does their career trajectory go? Because you're the person in charge of deciding that, whether you're an HR representative or a judge or a cop or all sorts of things. Right. You can control lots of people's life trajectories. You can do the right thing and the wrong thing in your own life, too. Some really big calls. And to me, that would be like taking a kid from MEPs, the entry point of the military, and putting them on a tier one team. You don't have the skill. You're not going to lift 500 pounds on a deadlift right off the bat. You need to build up. So in the same way, I think your ethical discernment and mental fortitude of discerning grace in black and white, that is, you think of it as a muscle in the brain or your soul. It's really more of a soul muscle than a brain thing that has to be developed and built through smaller decisions of things, which is kind of what I was referring to. When you grow up or you see things that are right and wrong, you learn things. You also learn. And we mentioned this earlier, suffering, like, when you learn that. So for me, like, I got the living kicked out of me day in and day out in wrestling times, I thought I would die. I literally thought I was gonna die and get choked out or killed or broken. Like, there were absolute beasts and killers, like, in my room that were very, very good. And. And I wasn't as basically the contrast. They didn't even have to be that good. I sucked. But you learn that you can suffer, and every time you think you're gonna quit it, you come back the next day and one day more, and one day, and before you know it, you're the last guy standing after four years when everybody else has walked away for whatever reason. And. And you realize that you can do it because you've done it. But it. It's those little decisions. So, like, you know, stuff that. That we were talking about and. And you know that James talked about these turning down $100,000 to not stay silent and to tell the truth instead of give in to a lie or speak up against the president when he's telling us to undermine some pretty serious stuff. Those things don't. I mean, I suppose they could happen in a vacuum, but generally speaking, those are really, really tough calls.
- [107:54]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yes.
- [107:56]
Rick Adante
And I'd be lying if I said it was so easy, because it wasn't. And I remember, because we mentioned the apostles. I'll go back to that. I went to my apostle priest and this is. And I mentioned this because it's a good example of things to keep in mind for leadership when people are mentoring others, because people will come to you for advice. And the way that we answer advice changes their course trajectories, too, as leaders. And so I went to one priest that. And I said, hey, I'm going through this thing. You could just kind of keep me in prayer. You know, I've had. I've had to blow the whistle on some rough stuff at work, and I just. I want to be able to do the right thing, but. But I don't. And I had one priest say. You could tell he got uneasy, and he kind of. And he kind of gave a very. What you'd think of as, like, a trite or a cliche kind of answer. He's like, okay, well, sure, I'll pray for you, but, you know, try to. Try to be, like, a disciple of. Be like the disciples of Christ. And this was in the week of Lent, right before Easter. Passion.
- [109:00]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [109:01]
Rick Adante
And so that was his advice to me. But to me, when he told me that, first of all, the vibe I got was, like, an uneasy one.
- [109:07]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [109:08]
Rick Adante
And like, as if I was doing. Might be doing something wrong.
- [109:11]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yes.
- [109:12]
Rick Adante
But he would pray for me, which is like, you know, the sl. We're in the south here, so, you know.
- [109:17]
Co-host/Interviewer
Absolutely.
- [109:18]
Rick Adante
But then the other thing it made me think of. Right. And we don't always think about this as leaders of how people listen to what we say, because they. But what I heard during the week of Holy Week in the Passion, he's like, you know, I'll pray for you to be like the disciples of Christ. I'm like, you mean the guys who abandoned them.
- [109:34]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [109:35]
Rick Adante
What kind of career. Because I was looking for courage.
- [109:37]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [109:37]
Rick Adante
I was looking. Was to be encouraged and have that courage.
- [109:41]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Go put yourself on the cross. It's worth it.
- [109:44]
Rick Adante
Yeah. Because you're. Again, you're calibrating this discernment.
- [109:47]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [109:48]
Rick Adante
And I'm like, during this particular week, it was the women who went to his cross.
- [109:53]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [109:54]
Rick Adante
His disciples did not want. I mean, one is. One of them designed him. Three times. They. And I guess John was at the cross. Okay. Sorry, John.
- [110:01]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
But like.
- [110:02]
Rick Adante
But, like, you know, for the most part, they weren't really bastions of courage at that point. That was what the. The resurrection re. Emboldened them, and the Holy Spirit came down. They gave them the courage that they needed, that they thought they had. Remember, first they're like, no, I'll do anything.
- [110:16]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Anything.
- [110:16]
Rick Adante
And he's like, really? How about out, like, three? Before the night's over, you're gonna die.
- [110:21]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Not a chance. Not a chance.
- [110:23]
Rick Adante
He's like, all right, bro.
- [110:24]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I'm the rock. But, like.
- [110:26]
Rick Adante
So that I thought about that, and I'm like, you know, like. Like, is that a great example? But then that. And I was mad about it, because then I went to another priest literally 20ft away at the other side of the church, shaking people's hands and very different Style person.
- [110:41]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [110:41]
Rick Adante
And I told him. He's like, St. Joseph's feast day is coming up. He's the. Just the. He is the defender against demons and the fighter against the worker for your work. And he's like, you will be strong. And I was like, yeah, yeah, there you go. Let's rock. Like. Like, right. So, like. So I was mad about that at first, but then in the last couple weeks, I've been thinking about that from about five months ago, and I realized, you know, like, what you said. I'm like, well, he didn't say when. They were all actually pretty courageous. They all got. I mean, they were martyred. Like, okay, so. But as leaders, we don't know. We need to give. Be mindful of how people hear what we say.
- [111:16]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yes.
- [111:17]
Rick Adante
Because we may give the wrong context, and they can interpret things a little bit differently. And it's kind of like old man talking from my point of view is like, how do we mentor and coach younger people up and keeping that in check?
- [111:30]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
It's giving them the space, giving them just enough planning and dropping enough seeds so that. That when they're ready, you know, that the manifestation of that courage can present itself in the right time, the right place. But to have the understanding and the expectation that sin is always tempting us to take the easier route.
- [111:54]
Rick Adante
It is. And. And that's where, again, I come back to that idea that, like, how do we make these important big decisions as everyone will face in life?
- [112:05]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [112:08]
Rick Adante
Like, it's. Through practice. It's. It's. Whether it's mental practice or physical practice, lifting weights or doing arithmetic. If, you know, if we have. About 10 or 12 years ago, I wrote a blog series for UFC fighter Matt Lindland, becoming a very close friend of mine. He spoke at my wedding.
- [112:29]
Co-host/Interviewer
He.
- [112:29]
Rick Adante
He fought Fedora Minako. He.
- [112:31]
Co-host/Interviewer
He.
- [112:31]
Rick Adante
He's. If you. If you remember the old days, like, he's og.
- [112:34]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [112:35]
Rick Adante
One of my very best friends now, but I wrote a series for him during the George Zimmerman trial here in Florida that was in the national news, and I was just watching it, and I wrote the series. It's called a. A Dearth of Heroism, saying that, like, we just don't have people in society who often are comfortable taking heroic action of ethical or. Or physical courage necessary. Because I was watching some witnesses testify in that case who, like, basically heard whoever it was kicking the. Out of the other person in that.
- [113:07]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [113:08]
Rick Adante
Battle. And he said, so I hid in the bushes and called the cops. And I'm like, come on, man. Like, maybe Like I'm the person. I'm a kind of person who goes to the fire to help. Sometimes that's not always the best advisable. I understand there's times where you.
- [113:26]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I don't know. I think it's always the best thing to do.
- [113:29]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [113:30]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Regardless of the pain you're gonna suffer. Because then you'll never have the regret that you didn't.
- [113:35]
Rick Adante
Yeah. Because somebody died.
- [113:36]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [113:37]
Rick Adante
In that case.
- [113:37]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [113:38]
Rick Adante
And. And so I wrote this. It was called the Dearth of Heroism. And I think this is what we're still talking about here, which is that in culture and society we have what some people would call a dearth of heroism. That doesn't mean none. I think that there's incredibly brave and courageous people, people doing amazing things. And the, and the, the series I wrote back then actually featured that too. But the point was to say, how do we build this and the build. And in that framework, it was through wrestling and mixed martial arts. You have to teach kids that it's okay to get beat up. You will rebuild. It's okay to have the courage to go out on a mat or in practice against a kid who's bigger and better than you, because that is scary when you can do that and you learn how to suffer. And then somebody comes up to you at work in a white collar situation and they're like, you should be scared. You're like, of what? Of what? It's like, what was the old. You're old enough to remember Rocky 5's like, sue me for what?
- [114:32]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah, that's right.
- [114:33]
Rick Adante
Because he knows how to suffer.
- [114:35]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [114:36]
Rick Adante
And you know, that's something that, you know, you guys are obviously world class trained in how to suffer. Suffering is a skill. It's a theological one too, 100%. And when all connected and when you suffer theologically, to me, I've learned this over the last three or four years as a parent. We went through some really bad suffering of a really sick kid. My wife almost died in my arms and labor. And we suffered in extraordinary ways that brought us to our knees and made us prayerful and that helped us grow. We actually. The suffering was the gift. And knowing how to do the suffering and have it be a gift and have it humble you towards prayerfulness and growth is like. I mean, that's, that's how we've not, you know, don't. People shouldn't mistake me. I'm not saying to beat people up because it's going to make them stronger. And they're going to learn how to like, that's, this is not a justification for abuse and taunting or like, but like we do need to allow people and kids to scrape their elbows, knees and elbows, learn how to fail, learn how to suffer. And this comes back to this DEI thing.
- [115:51]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [115:51]
Rick Adante
So this is, you asked me what have I seen it manifest at why is this the hill to die on that I chose to hold firm on and speak the truth about? It's because this has been happening as our conversation has alluded for over 25 years. And what we've seen over 25 years is everything goes south. Now there's lots of reasons for that, but one of these tracks in correspondence to that. Like you talked about the patents and the science discoveries that people want to make. Guess what? We're not making a lot of science discoveries in the academic world. There's a whole rabbit hole, if you like going around rabbit holes of how broken science is. They went in business, you say you go woke and go broke. Well, in science they went woke, but they are broke. Science has a replication crisis. You can't replicate most findings. There's a huge fraud issue in science. So much major findings have been found to be fraudulent. The biggest model for Alzheimer's disease turned out to be fake papers that they spent than million $500 million of investment into drug treatments based upon it was all fraudulent. And you know when you're promising treatments to people whose parents can no longer remember them. Yeah, like that's a different kind of evil too. Like, and, and so we fund science in America to make explorations and discoveries, but when we're funding it with decisions based upon features that are not ability and merit and excellence and skill, then it's not going to be able to execute what we needed to do in making the discoveries that save lives and improve society. You may end up up with something that looks like how you want it to look like, but it's not going to work like how you want it to work like, and you know, like it's something I think Americans have always held the deepest respect and regard for your communities in special operations because we've always assumed and believed that you guys are the last bastion holding the line of standard. I think we are and what we haven't done that it would be the equivalent of like you guys wouldn't be able to operate if you started selecting people not based on we changed the standard. And, and, and, and, and I know there's military conversations about that for a long time. About what happens in the risk thereof. But I'm here reporting back from the front lines of education and science and the intellectual side of the academy that we gave up that fight 25 years ago.
- [118:44]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [118:44]
Rick Adante
And where would your community be if that fight was given up 25 years ago? And that's where we're at right now in science and education.
- [118:51]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [118:52]
Rick Adante
And so that's why it's important. That's why I took a stand. Because if we are to save a nation, if we are to save our culture and our society so that we can educate people instead of indoctrinate them, then somebody has to hold the line. Somebody has to say, the emperor doesn't have any clothes. Somebody has to say, these are wrong things and you're doing the wrong things about the wrong things. And, and that's why it's important. And I've seen it weaponized. I've. I've experienced it weaponized. And we've had a weakness in leadership of holding those things accountable. Even now, you see, you know, you allow companies or universities to fix their website sites to fix their words, but you keep the same people in place.
- [119:40]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [119:41]
Rick Adante
The deeds don't change. And those are the same institutions that keep getting the funding. And in your world, they accept the GI Bill to train leaders to take that indoctrinated philosophy and take it back to the military so that they can interrupt the standard bearing selection based on a faulty indoctrination of education. And it matters.
- [120:14]
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- [122:47]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Ah, come on.
- [122:48]
Podcast Producer
Why is this taking so long?
- [122:50]
Rick Adante
This thing is ancient.
- [122:52]
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- [123:06]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Whoa, this thing moves.
- [123:07]
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- [123:26]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I tell you, Rick, blown away by not only your courage to have the stance that you took, but the way you think about it. I mean, a lot of people will make stances based on a gut feeling. They know it's wrong and so they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll wave their hand and all that. But you know, I think what, what makes you so unique is that you can articulate the, the reasoning behind it and the importance of why it we need to do this, why we need to stand up for what we believe in and why we, you know, we have to hold the line of, of that pursuit of truth, that. That integrity and. And. And that foundation of. Of the things that I think societies need as a whole to be able to rely upon.
- [124:17]
Rick Adante
Well, you know, thank you. That. That means a lot. And coming from you, I. I don't know that I'd like, deserve such kind words from men like yourself, but it does mean a lot. I've always looked up and aspired to be everything all of you guys have always been, but there's a real tangible connection to this. We talked about the communist applications of this, of control of humans, control of society. But one of the people in that meeting was a foreigner from Europe on an H1P visa, actively working to indoctrinate his students, students with European communism principles. Like. Like these are not esoteric theory, theoretical things that. It happened. I caught it. I proved it. Like, I have the video and those things are happening all over.
- [125:07]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [125:08]
Rick Adante
And it's.
- [125:08]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
It's. I think it's a. There's an infection and they're laughing about it.
- [125:12]
Rick Adante
I have another film that they're laughing. They're laughing about teaching it.
- [125:15]
Co-host/Interviewer
They.
- [125:16]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
They've been unchecked for so long and, and like any. Any idea. Any. Any infection that goes on, you know, on what is it undiagnosed and then treated, it just keeps growing and growing and growing. And that's the whole gist of communism. That's the whole gist of this. These radical ideologies. But, you know, I think now we're in a place where we. We're. We're done. There's a. There's enough people beginning to stand up and fight back and, and push back, and I. And. And you've been that person. Well, if.
- [125:50]
Rick Adante
If I may.
- [125:51]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [125:51]
Rick Adante
You know, one thing that I think has happened, like you said, they've been getting away with it so long because nobody said or did anything. We had for, I guess, what you would say, two generations since the global war on terror. Our warriors were sent to war. Our fighters. You guys were sent to war. And we talked a little bit. Like, I felt drawn to it, and for whatever reason, I kept getting taken out. So, like, I'm kind of a weirdo in the academic culture because, like, I'm actually a trained fighter in wrestling and hand to hand, like, I'm used to being comfortable being uncomfortable, suffering. Suffering, being. Being in a contentious, combative scenario and being comfortable there if necessary. But that's not usual. Our generations, they said all of our people taught all you guys how to fight, and we gave away the ship domestically. And in 2016, most people don't know this, but I remember watching it because at the presidential nominating RNC convention, I think it was Marcus who gave a speech. And people don't remember probably Marcus's speech, but I remember it because I remember and he said he came back from war, but he realized that the actual battlefront here is domestically on the front of our culture and society. And he was not wrong. He was absolutely right. We are now seeing that manifest and I think that people are starting to answer the call, but they're doing that because of the inspiration and the guidance of people like you. So I came across your videos in 2014 and they were so good about motivating young, young men and people to have integrity, to, to live a life of virtue and to hold the line of, of your standards of integrity. And, and I came from, I was trained by programs that built Olympians and really high level elite coaches. And when I saw what you were saying and I didn't, didn't know much about your background, but it instantly resonated like, this is an elite level person training people for free on YouTube through your frog Logic program. And it was right. And what you're doing matters and it, and it leaves a very big impact where like, whatever, it's been 11 years now, you know, I can meet you today and be like, hey, you actually impacted that.
- [128:23]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I appreciate that, Rick. It means the world. You know, I think the whole gist is, you know, I, I, I, I learned pretty early on that the, the suffering is the pathway to salvation. And so how do you teach people that, you know, how do you say, hey, guess what? You're gonna, if you want to become the person you want to become, you have to go seek out the suffering, the pain. It's part, it's a beauty, it's important. Imbued in life regardless. I mean, you're a product of, you know, that imbued suffering.
- [128:55]
Rick Adante
It takes courage to seek out the suffering.
- [128:57]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right.
- [128:57]
Rick Adante
It's scary.
- [128:58]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right. It, especially if you've been indoctrinated in it as early as childhood where you like, man, I don't want any of that anymore for my whole life. And then you, you figure out the mechanisms to deflect or defend or to ignore or to reroute or whatever away from it because it was so intense, whatever these periods, whether you were a kid or whether you went through trauma as an adult or went to combat or whatever it is, or had to be a whistleblower, like, it's so it's so impactful. It's. So what is. It fractures us, right? It fractures, I think it fractures the us to our core to where we really have to believe is our foundation going to hold up under this, this, this on this anvil right as, as we're getting waylaid. And, and that's what I always was. Have been trying to do. And, and let me ask you this. And this is something like I, I know that you have left the university and you're, you know, I think what was just blew me away is that you're mowing lawns for. In, in, you know, in the meantime, what would be the thing that you would want to do most right now? Like what, what would be the perfect scenario to go back into academia, to go back to work maybe to work for you know, a starship, to work at a, at a, for an athletic department during neuroscience research on the modern athlete. I mean, what would be the perfect thing for you that would give you that sense of me, that sense of purpose and meaning that all of this is, is worth it?
- [130:41]
Rick Adante
Man, that is such a good question. I don't know that I even have a great answer because it's been such a whirlwind. It's. It like I just ended a 25 year trajectory on a dime and I'm trying to turn a cruise ship or aircraft carrier around in a moment. Like there's, it's been such a whirlwind and such choppy waters and I haven't had time to really like decompress and unpack what's next or what. I mean I'm the kind of person that is interested. I'm, I'm capable for lots of pretty much all those things. I have, you know, I've, I have a small couple small LLC companies. I actually started one called Space Psychology where I actually want to do the kind of psychological work that we were doing that we were talking about in our conversations and take to, towards these commercial and NASA space based applications. Because of my experience being both a crew member and a principal investigator of these missions, studying astronaut cognition, one of the things I got to see is that like there is, we're at an embryonic level of understanding those things at NASA for psychological exploration, long duration spaceflight. And I think we can do it better than what can sometimes be shackled by in the government like NASA system. And I won't say I was talking with one of the astronauts at the astronaut Memorial for Columbia and Challenger explosions this past January and explaining this idea and said hey, I'd like To build this out. Do you think it resonates with your time on the ISS and isolation, confinement and the challenges? There is a military guy too, and he said DoD had a much better system in place than NASA does coming back from deployment. They have a better build out for bringing people back and transitioning. She said it was still, also, still pretty bad. Free.
- [132:35]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [132:35]
Rick Adante
He's like, NASA's like, you come home and they're like, see you. Thanks.
- [132:38]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Yeah, great job.
- [132:39]
Rick Adante
Yeah. Now you got to answer, but you got to go do all the kids, elementary schools. You don't get a rest. You don't you, Everybody wants it because you're a celebrity. Everybody, you know, you get to do it, get it. I, I talked to a French astronaut at one of these missions and he said that, he said you spend four years training with someone, with a team, you go and you do this mission for eight months. So immensely bonding. I mean, you're forged like any of your teams would be forged, I'm sure, you know, and you come home and as soon as you land in Kazakhstan, at that point, every country of your team has a team of people, a truck and a helicopter, basically. And as soon as you're landing, you go to the four opposite corners of the Earth and you stop talking and like, you text for here and there. But he's like, but at that moment you, the breakup. He's like, and he's like, I was there, I was in space for eight months or whatever it was. And he's like, then I come home and like two days later I'm stuck in traffic in the circle in Paris trying to go get to the president to receive a medal and I can't get out of traffic. And he's like this, he said it was just so surreal and everybody wants a piece of you and all you need do to, to all you want to do is rest. That's right, decompress. And so like, that's kind of my answer right now. Like, like, like, I, I would do all those things. I'm interested in a lot of them, but I think, you know, like, yeah, I do have a question for you.
- [134:09]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [134:09]
Rick Adante
So, well, let me real quick.
- [134:11]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
If, if you're listening to this and you have listened to what Rick is about and something pops in your head for your program, your school, your science, your evaluation, whatever it might be, make sure you get. We're going to put out all of his contact information and reach out to him because you should have an overwhelming response. I'm praying. And that opportunities come to your Door because not only have you shown your intelligence here and in every aspect of your career, but your integrity most. And I think that's the key because putting all that together, that doesn't always happen. And I, and I think that's the wrestler in you for sure.
- [134:57]
Rick Adante
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, you know, maybe that's a way to bookend that answer for you too is like, you know, I've talked with some other friends about similar things and you know, what they've said is that what businesses look for or need most is moral leadership. So in terms of leadership, that's something that I would want to bring is moral leadership to, you know, as a culture. Our ships are not doing well. We have a lot of rats on the ship. We need to make things ship shape again. And that stems with moral leadership. And that's something that I want to bring forward to wherever we go because I'm committed to putting our kids on the right pathway forward and building this not out for us, but for them to inherit what we have become stewards of. And so I hope to make a good contribution in to any place I know it's gonna do the right thing. Because it does. It is important. And you know, so. And we've seen that like in. I've seen the education system fail at producing it, great inflation pushing people through. I've seen students who struggle with reading, writing, math in college. And we're going to write that ship. I've been committed to it and still committed to it. And we're going to make sure that we do everything we can to do things in the right way.
- [136:20]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [136:21]
Rick Adante
So when I would watch a lot of your shows, you talk a lot about the negative insurgency. So I'm curious where that came from for you and how did you conceptualize that? Because one of the things that. When I first came across your FrogLogic program years ago, I was already a professional neuroscientist. I was doing a postdoc. And when you're talking about positive and negative insurgencies as you framed them, the brain has positive and negatively charged ions that will make cells fire or not fire. And it's not a good or a bad thing in that respect. So sometimes you want to inhibit cells or brain areas from firing because they're going to make you do something you shouldn't do. So think of like Tourette's is a problem where that inhibition is gone. And so you need the negative balance with the positive. I know that's not exactly the way you, you, you frame the insurgency with but like, where did that come from and how did you tap into applying that with like the brain based integration of, you know, all your mentoring and leadership stuff that you're doing?
- [137:26]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, I, I, the biggest thing for me was it was the fear that was always present. And I, and I remember when I, when I left the agency, the number one, one of the number one questions you'd get was, were you afraid in training? And I was like, you know, it's such a personal question. And I, you know, I was kind of a snapperhead and I was just like, well, you know, I'd make some stupid, you know, we'll, we're, you know, have you ever had a 300 pound boat on your head, immersed in freezing cold water, you know, running 200 miles with, you know, 96 straight hours, you're up two out four hours of sleep in a full week, you know, and they'd be like, no. And I go, you'd be, you'd be afraid too, you know, and, and it's like, that's how I would push back similar questions about combat. But then, then someone asked me for real like, you know, how if you were so afraid, how'd you do it? And, and I didn't know the answer to that. And so that began this, this going down this road to understand where fear comes from and where it originates and how we're taught it and how we cultivate it. And so I mean, you know, you, the first place you, you start is fight or flight. And then you understand the limbic system and how the amygdalas work and how the hippocampus campus works. And, and then, so then I read, I found a book on positive neuroscience and that was by Martin Seligman. And that one was a massive flip for me because I was like, exactly what you said. There is a positive and negative electrical, you know, thing taking place. And when you understand, you know, how our hormones and our stress hormones work and you know, that war, that war that's taking place between those in your limbic system, right? And then, then the big one was, oh, your amygdalas actually can generate positive emotion as well too. You know, the, the, the, the case study was like, you go to a concert and there's 65, 000 people. Like I just took my, my family when we're up to New York over the summer, and we went and saw Zach Bryan and at the end he sings this song called Revival and It's like a 20 minute song. And there were 60, 000 people singing this. And I'm looking at my children, you know, from 12 to 17. And then I'm looking at people in their 60s screaming the song. Females, males, you know, different races, different genders, different cultural backgrounds, and the same energy is being exuded. And so I'm like, whoa. And then I thought back to the, the suffering and the pain of combat and, and how that affects everybody. There's a, it kind of, it is, it's the energy that infuses into us under sorrow or pain or whatever. And I'm like, whoa. Okay, so there's, there's, it's a, it's really, I think, a, an idea of perception. And that's why, like, fast forward. Jordan Peterson. When I, when I'd gotten canceled off the Internet, canceled and you know, lost everything, lost my business from COVID everything, I'd lost it all. I found this lecture he gives called restructuring your perceptions, part two. And the way he deconstructs it and then builds it back up right, from, from, you know, the nature of, of, of writing a book, right? Well, I'm not, you know, I start at, well, I'm going to punch a key and then I'm going to punch multiple keys and I'm going to connect those keys into a word. Then I'm going to put these words into a phrase. Then I'm going to put these phrase in a paragraph and hopefully that paragraph makes sense. Well, what's the intention behind a paragraph? What are you going to teach? And so these, these perceptions of each step, each phase, each concept. And so you build on those, right? And the more ambitious that you want to be becoming a Navy seal, the more you have to have, you know, a focused conviction towards the steps it takes to get there. Well, each step is riddled in pain and fear. And so if I allow my, if my perceptions off, then I, I, I'm never going to get to reach the pinnacle of, of the ambition, right? And so I'm, I'm putting all this together and then all of a sudden I start understanding how, how we teach fear, how it's built into almost every fabric of, of every phase of your life, right? From the immediacy of physical fear. Don't touch the hot stove. Don't cross the street without looking. Don't go up next to that, that bad guy all the way to the point. Well, if you don't accomplish this, you're not going to be accepted into society if you don't, you know.
- [142:27]
Rick Adante
And so now here's a crazy thing.
- [142:28]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
It's a Crazy thing, right? So I, I, I, I get after like two years of this, and I'm like, yeah. But none of what I was figuring out gave me the answer of, of the unknown realities. How it just hits you when you, when you know, like you don't even. You be one minute you're good, and then some little thing getting pinned on a mat can destroy a whole season. One, one submission or one mistake can spiral the entirety of this pathway you're on. Why is it so profound? And, and, and I, I immediately correlated it because guys were starting to commit suicide. It started to pick up. And meanwhile, these are the most impressive hard human beings I've ever known in my life. But they're spiraling out what, what's going on? And it became these invisible battles that nobody. And if you talk about that isolation, it's the invisible battles that emerge. And it start right, it starts as the whisper or the scratch, right. Or starts as the itch or it starts as the, the doubt. And those are the insurgencies. And those were the people we were fighting. They weren't the army in front of you. It wasn't toe to toe. Because you can rationalize. Toe to toe, right? You can generate. That's the liftoff that's going to mars is, is the toe to toe fight. But it's, it's, it's, hey, well, you got to get back in the fight every day for three years. And that's what ends up breaking.
- [144:11]
Rick Adante
It's the, it's fighting another person is the easiest thing in the world. Fighting yourself, like wrestling and fighting yourself, that's the ultimate opponent and, and that's the real battle. And you know, so it resonated with me when I was, I was hearing you share a lot of that both online and then again here. You know, fear is so powerful. I, I've, I've, I've heard it in two different ways. Like I've, I had friends who were test pilots at Edwards and they would say for a while, part of the sort of maxim is like, guys wouldn't want to go up and fly with people who weren't married with kids because it changes your wrist calibration.
- [144:53]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [144:53]
Rick Adante
And, and it makes you take.
- [144:57]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
It.
- [144:58]
Rick Adante
Makes you more governable to by fear because fear is a helpful thing and a good thing too. That's right. You know, you know, like, just like I'm, I'm sure like you, there's probably exceptions to this too. Right. But like, it's probably nice to go out on patrol with People who have a family that want them home, 100.
- [145:17]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
They'Re more focused, they're more acutely aware, they're paying better attention.
- [145:20]
Rick Adante
Are going to take different risk profiles.
- [145:22]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Some do, but.
- [145:23]
Rick Adante
Right.
- [145:24]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
But most don't. Most. Most. If the guys that I've worked with, it reinforces their determination to not make mistakes.
- [145:32]
Rick Adante
Precisely. Yeah, but that's the risk profile. That's what I'm saying. You make sure that you take the risks that are calculated.
- [145:39]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right.
- [145:40]
Rick Adante
And mistake proof, like, because there's a different thing. But at the same time, the cowboys.
- [145:44]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Go away quick once there's other people involved.
- [145:47]
Rick Adante
Well, yeah. Who wants to go? Who wants to strap your wagon to a cowboy that doesn't want to come home?
- [145:52]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right.
- [145:53]
Rick Adante
People ask about this with Mars all the time. They're like, would you take, like. I'm like, no, it's a. It's a. It's a return trip home. You don't want to go with somebody who doesn't want to come home. That's right. And, and, and. And astronauts would say this at times. I forget who I've heard of somebody, but they would say that. People ask him, are you scared? He's like, well, yeah. He's like, I don't want to go to space with someone who's not scared. I mean, why would you? And in combat, when we. We go to UFC or mixed martial arts stuff, like, it's like when you mentor and coach guys training up, and before the match, they got the butterflies. They got this. It's a. And they're. They're scared, dude.
- [146:29]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
I worked with one of the greatest UFC fighters in human history, Andre Arvlovsky. And I remember when I was working with him, he was in his 18th year, and I remember we were getting ready to go in a fight. It was, I think, his Chicago fight that I did with him. And you could tell, I watched it come over him. And I'd been with him two fights before, and it was a little different in those, but this one was more meaningful. That's where he'd got his start. That's. He lived in this one world, shitty apartment, and now he's back to the space, and it's like he's in the twilight of his career. And you saw it, and I'm like, are you all right? And he's like. He's like, yeah, I'm good. I was like, are you feeling it. It more intensely? He's like, yeah, of course I am. And he's like, and I'm like, why? And he's like, I'm going to get into a fight, and there's no other. There's no other thing.
- [147:19]
Rick Adante
But, like, I tell kids, like, when. When you don't feel the butterflies, when you should be worried. Yeah, they're a good sign that you know what's at stake. You know what's that happened? And so you. You teach the kids to embrace that. That's not a thing to be scared of. That's a thing. That's a fear to embrace because it means you're on the right path. And it's. It's funny. So we had a really similar conversation a couple years ago. I did a pod. I used to have a podcast. It was a really crappy YouTube show with Linlund, and Eddie Penny was our guest. And so he's very gracious. He came down, and I was just happy to be a fly on the wall. Listen to the two of those guys. So Eddie and him were talking about the same thing about. He was asking Matt, what's it like when you go into the ring to fight in front of Putin or something? And Matt was like, listen to Eddie talk about. What's it like when the back door of the helicopter comes down and you're out and it's go time, right? On a mission or something. And it was so funny to see the totally different worlds completely match between the two of them, because Matt's answer to Eddie was like, when I heard that pin drop in the door of the Octagon, and I knew that it was locked. They were talking about this fear, right? Matt's like, his answer. He's like, I knew they couldn't escape. And Eddie's like, yeah, that's how I felt leaving the helicopter. He's like, you weren't scared at all at that point. He's like, once that was flipped, you're not scared of what happens to you. You know that they can't get away from you now.
- [148:47]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [148:47]
Rick Adante
And that is a warrior's mindset.
- [148:49]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's right. That's right.
- [148:50]
Rick Adante
And you.
- [148:51]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And you, can you. I mean, through stress inoculation, you can teach that.
- [148:54]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [148:55]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's why I say don't. Don't seek out to be fearless, because there's no such thing, but to embrace that fear and use it as the motivation that drives you forward.
- [149:04]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [149:04]
Rick Adante
Well, and that's. And that's why I asked about it, because when you were describing those. Those moments of using fear through. Through your blood's training, the boats, when people were Asking, weren't you scared? You're like, well, yeah, but like, when you. That's why I think it's important with stress inoculation, you can have this little fear train. People need to build this up in their life.
- [149:23]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [149:24]
Rick Adante
Because it gives you the tools to say like, I know how to suffer and if, if I'm going to lose something from this, I'll be okay. Like, if. So you're going to punish me. Okay, I can handle a punishment or I can handle the pain because I know I'm strong. I know that we can survive.
- [149:42]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, you improve too. And there. What. Just a couple months ago, some neuroscientists discovered that, that the suffering improves cognition.
- [149:53]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [149:53]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Improves a sense of self. It improves all of that. And I haven't read the science yet, but I'm like, well, duh, you know, duh, like the resilience piece and the, the, the it re. Reinforces those neural pathways if you access the ones that get you through it.
- [150:11]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [150:12]
Rick Adante
So, yeah, so. And I, I told you I'd come back to this. When you were talking about metacognition.
- [150:17]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
- [150:20]
Rick Adante
When you're saying the suffering builds. Reinforces those pathways and those resilience. I think this is a little bit anecdotally for me speaking too, and then I'll get to the science. But like, I think when you're going through that suffering, one of the mechanisms by which it accomplishes those reinforcing of the connections and whatnot is when you're suffering, you're actually engaged. You're engaging in a lot of self talk and self reflection because like a lot of times you're usually suffering by yourself. So you're like talking all sorts of stuff like, what is, how do I get out? And there's negative insurgencies. That's right, right. And that's what you need to, you need to harness those negative self talks, unleash the positive ones and, and wrestle with it. Let those two horses run together to pull your cart.
- [151:07]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right?
- [151:07]
Rick Adante
That's right. So that takes practice because that's a skill. And so as you're practiced in the skill of suffering, you're actually practicing in the skills of self awareness, metacognition. And that's what you were describing in those, Some of the, whether it was kids or recruits or colleagues, people who are overconfident and think, oh, I got this. And, and they don't take feedback and they're like, no, no, we're good. And you're like, no, literally, like, you're not. And so I don't. Forgive me if you haven't heard of this phenomenon, but there's a phenomenon, psychology called the Dunning Kruger effect.
- [151:45]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [151:46]
Rick Adante
So I discovered the first neural correlates of it.
- [151:48]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Are you kidding me?
- [151:49]
Rick Adante
No. I published it in 2021.
- [151:51]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Are you kidding me? All right, explain it to. Because it's one of the most phenomenal things that I've ever been exposed to.
- [151:58]
Rick Adante
I call it psychological gravity.
- [152:01]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Awesome.
- [152:02]
Rick Adante
Why gravity? Because gravity is a physical force of nature in the world world, and it affects everyone. You don't get to float around Earth. You are harnessed by gravity. You can beat gravity. You can jump. But it takes energy to beat that gravity bring you down. And it will also bring you down too. An airplane can use energy to lift off. It takes energy to stay above gravity, but it will eventually have to come down because it's unsustainable. So when I say it's psychological gravity, it's a, it's a psychological phenomena that affects everyone like a physical law of Newtonian gravity does in the world of physics, which is to say I am talking to everyone, including me and you. There is no one that is not affected by this phenomena. Okay, so what's the phenomena? It is a twofold phenomena. The one part of it is that people have a tendency to overestimate their abilities or capabilities. And the other side is that people also have a tendency to underestimate their capabilities and performances. Now the twist on it is that it tends to be the phenomena is that the people who are the most competent and the most capable are the ones who underestimate themselves. And the people who are the most or the least competent are the ones who, who are the most overconfident. So in the science side of that, statistically we call that a crossover interaction. So. And I'll unpack that as we move along here. So it's really problematic. So I gave, actually I, I reported these findings to Army Futures Command at the association for the U.S. army because I pitched it in the context of, of we can make better leaders by stopping overconfidence. And I had a picture of George Armstrong Custer on the slide because like, perfect example, well, this is all fun and games and lovey dovey psychology stuff until lives are on the line and overconfidence kills. Which it did. It killed everybody in his command. That's right. But underconfidence kills too. If you don't go forward when you should, you miss an opportunity, A, for victory, but B, to save lives that could have escaped A bombing or, you know, whatever scenario you want to, you know, create. So both of them are essential to master for good leadership. And I needed a good military example of how the military doesn't always have great. That great calibration. Custer was a great one that was so far away that nobody would feel like I was talking to them in the room. And so.
- [154:46]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
There'S actually a wonderful book that a British psychologist wrote about British officers making horrible calls and why the psychology is like psychology of bad leaders or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Unbelievable.
- [154:58]
Rick Adante
And so this is actually one of the things. If I wouldn't have been fired, I was writing grants and projects. I wanted to apply this actually in a leadership context, which our study was in a basic science way. It wasn't an applied way of leaders. But I'm like, this is the next step. We have to do this. These kind of research studies, because it could be gangbusters. So what we found in our study is, and what the psychological phenomenon of the Dunning Kruger effect is, is that our least competent think they're the best. Sort of your braggadocios. And our most competent think they're the worst. So I call them your humble heroes. And we see this in all tracks of life, right? If you talk to Michael Jordan, he knows he's Michael Jordan. You know, he might be. Some people might think he's arrogant. He's just confident. He's actually a reasonably humble guy because he knows it. And if you talk to your tier one guys, like all humble, look, they're. You know, you get them all around the bar, you guys will rouse each other in quiet. But like, I'm. They're. Humbleness probably climbs as you climb that.
- [155:59]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Ladder, a hundred percent. I mean, there's. There's a. There's a. There's a. I think there's a existence within the operational community that it's like, I'm not gonna. Your humiliate is tempered because it's. It's happening in real time. But the. The guys, the really amazing operators that I know, as soon as they separate from that world, unbelievably humble in terms of.
- [156:25]
Rick Adante
And just to take it back to the. The. The guy you mentioned, Colonel Charlie Plum, one of the things that was incredible for me was his humility about his whole scenario. And he made a comment in a show that we did together during COVID about isolation and confinement, and I was very deferential because he's like, well, you've done some time to him. I did a few weeks. I'm not Going to sit here with you and talk about doing time.
- [156:50]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
He's amazing.
- [156:51]
Rick Adante
But he said, no, no. He's like, you don't understand, Rick. If you did one day, time is time. And he said that he understood that. Everybody has their own Hanoi Hilton. Everybody has their own prison. We're not operating all at the same level. So he had such a large cup of water that could hold so much fluid that it took four years to fill. But somebody else, he's like, you might be in an abusive relationship at home.
- [157:15]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [157:16]
Rick Adante
That is the same prison and the same resilience that you're building. And he could understand that with the humility, rather than being like, well, you know, my dude this. And he isn't, as, you know, he's not that. That guy. And so with Dunning Kruger, you have this famous phenomenon. It's captured in biblical scripture. Confucius, Shakespeare famously said, the fool thinks he's wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool. And I was just back from the NASA astronaut interview process in 2016, and I was. I mean, it was reasonable that I could have been picked up because I. I just interviewed in the finals or fortunately, I had to go up against Johnny Kim and Frank Rubio, and they beat me pretty good.
- [157:59]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Those are two very healthy competitors. Yeah.
- [158:03]
Co-host/Interviewer
But yeah. Yeah.
- [158:04]
Rick Adante
I went home to my university job and I said, I probably won't be able to run any more scientific studies anymore. Like, what would I run again? And one year to run whatever study you can do. And I had a student who came and actually demonstrated this effect. She. She was complaining about some grade she got in a test, but she's like, but I've always just gotten a Is in all my papers. I'm like, well, here's why you got enough. Like, you just. Here's the reasons it didn't connect. She was overconfident because she didn't have the skills to know the areas that were failing short. And so I said, I wonder where the brain activity is associated with this. And I went and I looked at. And it turns out there weren't any studies of these phenomenas.
- [158:39]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [158:39]
Rick Adante
And so I designed one because I'm like, this may be I can never do another science. I'll just be a lab rat for NASA the rest of my life, Right? Possibly. And so let's do it. And I didn't ask for any, like, research funding. I didn't get dogged down in the bureaucracy. We ended up getting funding later for it. It took a long time of Being told no, we just did it. It was a beautiful badass part of science. We just did it. And so we built a study. It was a memory study. And we'd ask people every 10 trials of their memory decisions to say how well do you think you're performing compared to everyone? And so we replicated that crossover finding. So the, the best performers said they were performing not so great and vice versa. The people performing the worst on the memory test thought they were doing great. But what was really interesting was two patterns of results. One was behavioral response times and the other was the brain activity first. The behavioral response times how fast people respond to those judgments. You mimic the exact same crossover pattern of results. So the, the people who are your humble heroes, they were slowest in speed to press the button to say I'm doing the best. They were also fastest to say I'm doing the worst. And your braggadocios. The people who had the illusion of being better, they were fastest to say I'm the greatest and slowest to say I'm the worst. They were the worst.
- [160:14]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [160:14]
Rick Adante
And I mean that tracks anybody who has worked like you have with high performing people. You've also. It's exactly how you see things manifest.
- [160:23]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
That's what you focus on, that evaluation and that's how you begin to break the individual down or build them up is in that space, in that crossover. That's what I look for.
- [160:35]
Rick Adante
Yeah.
- [160:35]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
So yeah.
- [160:36]
Rick Adante
The problem that we've had psychologically is we've known about. About this phenomena since for decades.
- [160:42]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yep.
- [160:43]
Rick Adante
And they've come up with theories to explain why and it's. And, and we reasoned in re in reading the literature that the, the theoretical accounts for it were garbage because all they came up with was the account of it being. They called reach around knowledge. That you have some knowledge and it's allowing you to reach around to some guests that you're going to do or they said basically blissful ignorance, like you don't know. So you're blissfully overconfident. To me that's not a well designed and empirically strong construct of a psychological construct. That just doesn't. To me that was flimsy and weak. So we recorded brain activity of these judgments and we found two patterns of effects. We actually found different brain activity for these different judgments of the people doing these things. And what we found was a pattern of activity in the overestimators. The people who were are braggadocios. People who think they're great and aren't that pattern of activity Was very frontal in the brain. It was very kind of what we call early in time. So when the stimulus and the judgment happens, it happened very fast, close to that judgment, about 400 milliseconds.
- [161:54]
Co-host/Interviewer
Wow.
- [161:55]
Rick Adante
And what was interesting about. What was interesting about that pattern Brain activity is. It's very. It's the same pattern of brain activity that we see when people are in memory studies and are using a kind of memory we call familiarity, which I mentioned because your earlier comment made me kind of put a tack in it in returning to this, because it's the using of our just intuition. They're just kind of feeling that they're remembering something that they're not. They're not performing as well, but they think they are. And so how are they arriving at this judgment? It's because their decision is governed by the sense that this information just seems familiar. Okay, but how are the best performers actually constraining themselves and holding themselves back, actually, and saying, well, actually, they're not accurate, but they're saying they're underperforming. They had. They didn't show that pattern of activity. They showed a pattern in the back left parietal area of the brain later in time, about 600 to 900 milliseconds.
- [163:01]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Why in the parietal region?
- [163:04]
Rick Adante
Well, why is a deep question. I'm not sure I know the exact answer, but what I can tell you is that pattern of activity is the same pattern of activity that we see typically in memory studies when they use a different kind of memory process called recollection. Recollection is a clear, distinctive retrieval of the context Woven together with the information from the past. That is, you know, the details you can remember, everything about it. It doesn't just seem fuzzy. Oh, I think I know you from somewhere, don't I? You seem very familiar.
- [163:33]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Instead, this place, this time, this was a con.
- [163:35]
Rick Adante
Yeah, exactly.
- [163:36]
Co-host/Interviewer
Okay.
- [163:37]
Rick Adante
And so very different kind of memory. Those people are humble heroes. Were making their judgments and performance based upon that kind of a brain process, which told us a couple things. It told us that they were constraining their judgments and estimations of their own performance relative to others with clear details and specificity. Versus people were jumping to these wild conclusions of being great because it was actually fuzzy. And so they were using this intuition without facts, without information, and it was leading them down the primrose path of thinking they were better than they were. And we kind of took the next leap of saying, we presume that they probably encoded the information differently. That is to say, in real world applications, probably when you study better and you know the material better preparation.
- [164:30]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [164:31]
Rick Adante
You're going to remember the details. Those details are also going to constrain you towards getting out too far in front of your skis because you're also going to know the information well enough to where you also know what you don't know.
- [164:42]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [164:43]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And so you're like, you're honest about it.
- [164:45]
Rick Adante
Well, in this case, they were falsely honest like that.
- [164:47]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [164:48]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
The people that thought they were better than they were.
- [164:50]
Rick Adante
No, no, those people were, Were not honest about it.
- [164:53]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
The people that were restrictive.
- [164:55]
Rick Adante
Yeah.
- [164:56]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
In their assessment of their capability, they actually lowered.
- [165:00]
Rick Adante
Yeah.
- [165:00]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
They weren't honest about how good they were.
- [165:03]
Rick Adante
Yeah.
- [165:03]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Was it a protective. Is it a protective.
- [165:05]
Rick Adante
I think, I think it was just, I mean, like anything when you, you. When you know what.
- [165:09]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Or is it humility? Is it part of those, Those moral. Those moral. Those.
- [165:14]
Co-host/Interviewer
The, the. The what? The.
- [165:17]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
The moral boundaries.
- [165:18]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [165:19]
Rick Adante
Kind of. I mean, I think it's like the Socratic method. Socrates. Right. He knows what you, when you know what you don't know.
- [165:24]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [165:24]
Rick Adante
It's only because you studied and you put the work in. You went to, you know, you took the long journey in life.
- [165:30]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Like you put the work. Oh, my God.
- [165:32]
Rick Adante
And you, you went through ES qt. You did the. You now know who you are.
- [165:37]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Yeah.
- [165:37]
Co-host/Interviewer
Or.
- [165:37]
Rick Adante
Or maybe, maybe you don't until after combat. But like, like you, you, you put the work in your journey to where now you have the constraint to realize Socratically, there's a lot I don't know.
- [165:48]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [165:49]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
So.
- [165:50]
Rick Adante
But that's only because you know so much. So the people who are our, our braggadocios, they hadn't gone on that metaphorical journey. I would say that, that they probably didn't encode the information well enough. And so it allows them to just use their intuition to falsely jump to conc. Conclusions and erroneously think they're better than they are. Now you can see where I applied this towards the military leadership side.
- [166:10]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [166:11]
Rick Adante
When I talked to the Army Futures Command, I was like, I was like, I think you want your leaders to be constrained and not to be the ones who maybe aren't, who are making decisions out of intuition because they think it feels right because maybe they didn't study as well.
- [166:23]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
How do you teach constraint or restraint? I mean, it's not constraint, it's restraint.
- [166:29]
Co-host/Interviewer
Right.
- [166:29]
Rick Adante
A little bit of both. I mean, you're constraining your decisions based upon details, facts and information based on experience. But. Excuse me. Bless you. I would Say broadly. I mean it's probably the answer to this whole conversation which is like experience and discernment and wrestling in the gray teaches that right loss, right aiming that, that, that target on the target field trial and error. But you also have the guy you like. You can teach someone to shoot real a whole lot better if you just take them out of training and say do what I tell you to do. I'm going to teach you. And listen to what I teach you.
- [167:04]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [167:05]
Rick Adante
You have to act, you have to be coachable and, and be responsive and accepting to feedback of what you're right and wrong about and just do what I'm telling you to do. When you get kids like that, like from grassroots levels to the Olympic training center, like those are your, those are the coaches dreams because you save so much time, you just do the thing. And so when we found those patterns of brain activity that's kind of what we deduced is that this Dunning Kruger phenomena is based upon people using these wrong mental processes because both of them are illusions. And everybody talks about the Dunning Kruger effect for a while. People bash Trump for it because he just seems like this. It's great, it's huge. The whole braggadocio stereotype of anybody overconfident. Some people might say a lot of seals.
- [167:55]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
No, it's fact.
- [167:56]
Rick Adante
But like you know, like the, that just think of any stereotype of overconfident people.
- [168:02]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yep.
- [168:04]
Rick Adante
What I always, when that story broke about five years ago on that finding, I always told people in shows and smaller, you know, interviews about it. I said I think the biggest take home from that isn't that, it's that in a leadership sense society is held back by our best people underestimating themselves. Oh, they're not running. They think somebody else is better is going to run for office. They think somebody else is probably knows more like you know, like so let's just say I'm, I'm just a knuckle dragging wrestler at the end of the day. Right. Like I was a bar back and a landscaper and a bar fighter and a wrestler. Like somebody else probably figured this guy's running for office or leadership for this or that is better. He probably knows more about it. No they don't. Yeah, they don't. We now know this for a fact. Thank heavens for the Internet. It's a, it's a double edged weapon but man is it revealed people for what they are, what they aren't. And now we know as leaders in society that we need to step up and we need others to step up. But, but when you're wrestling with those demons of doubt, the negative insurgency that you refer to, those should be learned through practice to be comfortable areas, because it means you're on that Socratic path. If you don't have those demons of doubt, you're going to make that overestimating error. You're going to think you're great, you're going to think you're fine. You don't have those butterflies before a match. You're about to get knocked out. That's, that's the, like, that's learning how to harness that negative insurgency to make properly calibrated estimations and to put your hat in the ring and take command and control and lead your family, your township, your community, your country forward. Because we need the best people to stop thinking that they're not good and somebody else is better out there. I promise you they're not. It's the actual science, it's the actual data, and I was just fired from it, so we can't do more work on it.
- [170:06]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Well, my goal now is to figure out. Out how to get you into a place that you can continue this work. Rick, I, I'm. You know, I thought we'd go for an hour. We've gone for three. Yeah, it felt like. It felt like three minutes.
- [170:21]
Co-host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [170:22]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
So I can't thank you enough for your time. Your courage is, Is admirable beyond measure, but it's your, Your wisdom and, and, and your drive. And, man, I just, I'm gonna start praying that some. Something's coming your way. All of this is for a reason. And just. I can't thank you enough for coming on.
- [170:45]
Rick Adante
It's my honor. I can't thank you enough for having me on. And like I said, there's been parts in my journey where I was wrestling with a negative insurgency and negative thoughts, and I saw what you were doing, you know, evangelizing on, on the Internet and, and giving good messages legitimately. Good things that have, have helped give me the strength to, to get here and, and many others, too. So, I mean, appreciate that. You're the man.
- [171:08]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
How can people follow you, get in contact? Where can they see your work? You know, just share a little bit of that with people.
- [171:14]
Rick Adante
Yeah, so. Well, my work scientifically is on PubMed. You can. Everything is publicly, freely accessible. They're kind of nerdy technical papers. Nobody tends to want to read them that much, but I'm on. I had to start. So basically, I've always been in the shadows and quiet it and tried to be essentially a quiet professional. I've never really done anything publicly outside of science and NASA interviews and stuff. But I had to make us decision that we need to lean into this and reveal the truth for what it is. So now I started a Twitter account, Eric Adante. I have a sub stack which is R. Adante substack aridante so they can subscribe freer subscriber models. Twitter, of course I'm there. And I have a gifts or yeah, giftsendgo account. The title of it is the truth is not for sale. The website is some weird numbers. I forget what it is. It's like just random website but the truth is not for sale.
- [172:13]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
And they type your name in Truth is not for sale.
- [172:16]
Rick Adante
And that'll pop up on givesengo. That'll pop up.
- [172:18]
Co-host/Interviewer
Okay.
- [172:18]
Rick Adante
I would have had a better website name for it but when I created it I had never done it before before and I didn't worry about it. It's fine like that.
- [172:24]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
So you're good.
- [172:26]
Rick Adante
But we're grateful and you know, we're grateful for you. We're grateful for people who have been supportive. James of course has been a godsend. But so has everybody. I mean people have given 20 bucks 5 like it all matters like y and it truly warms our heart and touches it because you know, when we turn down that money, we, we don't think any money is worth a lot. And you know, we figured that, you know, we wanted to aim to raise the same amount of money but $1 more just to show that the truth is worth $1 more than a lie. If not, they win in that respect they'll never win, but at a message level that was something that was important to us because we do feel that there is no price on the truth. If they're offering you $1, it's probably not a truth that matters. So you don't need to take it.
- [173:17]
Co-host/Interviewer
That's right.
- [173:17]
Rick Adante
If they're offering you a trillion, it's probably especially the kind of truth that needs to come out.
- [173:22]
Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
Amen, Rick.
- [173:23]
Co-host/Interviewer
Thank you.
- [173:31]
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Rick Adante
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
All right, here we are.
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Rick Adante
Oh, it's perfect to first steps and.
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Rick Adante
So guess what?
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Rutger 'Rut' Jan Hofman
We definitely need more space to more practical homes.
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Rick Adante
This is an I heart podcast.