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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
Who Is Donald Trump Behind Closed Doors? Former Trump Lawyer Opens Up
01:03:11
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- [03:03]
George Sorial
It'S not often that you get to meet people who are some of the most fascinating people that exist. People that have experienced not only business at the highest level, but politics at the highest level who have a comprehensive understanding of complex problem sets and their ability to solve those in extreme environments. And so the fact that one of my, my friends, George Sorial has decided to join us today is not both just exciting for me because of the amount of respect I have for this man, but also because of the knowledge base he has and our ability to share that with all of you. So without further ado, I'd love to welcome George to the show.
- [03:50]
Ryan
Thank you David. My honor, my pleasure to be here. Those are some very kind words. I'm not sure I deserve them. All right.
- [03:57]
George Sorial
That's what you always say.
- [03:58]
Ryan
But do appreciate them. So thank you.
- [04:00]
George Sorial
Good. You're welcome. I think you know everybody, obviously we're in this crazy space of, of the tsunami of, of, of news stories and how they've were no longer contained in this eight channel, you know, fishbowl of information and now it's, it's at a, an all time high. In particular you spend five seconds on X and it's, there's so many independent journalists going around and, and what I've seen in particular as the President has now moved into his second term is, is the craziness is even more expansive and it's, the whole thing is, is who is he, why is he do, why is he operate like this, what gives him the right for this or he's like this or he's like that. You're a person that has known the president intimately for 25 years now. And I thought it would be interesting to start the conversation with what it was like working in his organization, working for him, the relationship but more importantly the dynamic of running a multi billion dollar organization around the world and what that was like.
- [05:20]
Ryan
Sure. Well, I think shortly I would first say that I really enjoyed wasn't, you know, if somebody had told me 30 years ago when I was starting my career that it would have gone this way and I'd be working with a person Like Trump, I would never have believed it. I immigrated to this country when I was a child, two years old. We actually arrived in New York by boat. My father was an educated person, as was my mother, but they didn't have any means. They didn't have much money. We literally arrived on a boat from Egypt, right? Well, no, my father is an Egyptian Christian, Coptic. He left Egypt in the 60s and was finishing his medical training in England. Wow. My mother is Scottish, from the Isle of Lewis. And there's a little bit of story to that. Born in the same town as President Trump's mom.
- [06:17]
George Sorial
Wow.
- [06:17]
Ryan
That was one of the ways that we became close. But they met in England. I was born in England, lived in Egypt for about a year, came back to England, and then eventually emigrated to the United States. At the time, there were shortage of positions in America, and my father was recruited to come over there. He was a head and neck surgeon. But again, like many people, I went to college. I didn't really have a plan. I was supposed to be a doctor like my father, but that didn't really work out. So I kind of went to law school by default. I'm just being very honest and blunt. And I spent some time in government. I did a fair amount of time in law firms. Then I met Trump. I actually met him on the other side of a deal. Wow. We were representing a group of Wall street guys that were trying to develop a project in Northern Jersey, which is now where Trump Bedminster is. And literally David at the Groundbre ceremony. And this will give you some insight into what he's like as a person. I walked up to him, and as a kid who grew up in Northern Jersey, Trump was always a larger than life character with the casinos, with everything else. And here I am, this guy's helping himself to some shrimp. So I walked up to him and I introduced myself and I said, look, I have something in common. I'd always heard that your mom was from Lewis. Well, that's where my mom was from. And we ended up having a conversation. And then it came up in the conversation that I was looking to buy an apartment in Manhattan. So he gave me the number. A woman named Rona Graff, she was the office manager, and told me, I want you in Trump world Tower, you know, call Rona on Monday. Now, a lot of people in that sort of social setting will make statements. Oh, give me a call. And then, yeah. But I called Rona. And a couple of days later, I was in his office looking at floor plans, and I bought an apartment wow. And that was kind of the beginning of the relationship. He started to give me some work. He'd call me up every now and again, ask me to attend events. I ended up buying the apartment. I became president of the board there. And then 2006, he called me up one day and said, I bought all this land in Scotland. You're going to come and work for me. We're going to honor our mothers. Just like that. I didn't really know much on a.
- [08:45]
George Sorial
Call, just, hey, George, come down and.
- [08:47]
Ryan
Come down, come and meet me. You know, the rest is history. But at the time, I was really a corporate lawyer, focused on M and A. I did a little bit of real estate work, but I certainly wasn't really equipped to take that job of building a golf course, hotel and homes. But I just have always had this thing in me, David, that every so often I feel that I need to pivot and do something different with my career and with my life.
- [09:18]
George Sorial
And where do you think that comes from? I just had this conversation with my good friend Sean Ryan just the other night. Is it in the way we thought, as he described it is. Oh, I get to a point where I've exhausted the excitement in it and I want to go do something else.
- [09:37]
Ryan
Is it that you think it's a combination of? I think a bunch of things. Maybe part of it is that really what you're talking about is boredom, the need to do something else. I've never been afraid to take on new challenges. I definitely am not the smartest guy out there, but I learned pretty quickly. I'm observant and I like to be challenged and take on new things. Life is short. You really have to enjoy what you're doing career wise. It amazes me how many people go through life, you know, just going through the ins and outs of the day and the weeks go by and they're not happy. You spend a huge amount of time at work, so you really need to do something that you love. And this is kind of a Trump thing. If you don't love what you're doing, you're not going to be good at it. That was kind of part of the ethos. The Trump Organization was an interesting place. There was really kind of unchallenged loyalty to everybody. So that was a big theme there. Everybody was loyal to each other. There was a high level of trust and respect. But there was also people that were there liked what they're doing.
- [10:49]
George Sorial
Right?
- [10:50]
Ryan
So loyalty and love job. It really made, you know, for a really nice work environment.
- [10:57]
George Sorial
Was It a difficult transition coming from a big law firm in New York where, you know, it's that every six minutes, it's that getting your hours to now. It's like, hey, here's the mission. Figure it out.
- [11:11]
Ryan
It was, it was different. And, you know, I just become a partner, which, you know, lawyers work towards that. So it was kind of a sobering moment. I mean, I, I went to my firm and, you know, I asked the powers that be, you know, look, I. I want to leave. I got this offer from Trump and I said, go, go, go work for. Go work for Donald. It'll be good for a couple of years and then you'll come back. I said, okay. You know, that was the other part of it. David, how do you turn down an opportunity like that?
- [11:45]
George Sorial
Can't.
- [11:45]
Ryan
I said to myself, what's the worst case scenario? I'm going to do something new. I'm going to work with this man. I mean, I took my, my dad's advice was just do it. You're going to enjoy it. You know, you could always do something different. That's another thing, too. Nothing is, you know, forever. You can always pivot in a job, in a career. And I think that is what part of what makes a person successful is that willingness to take on new challenges and not have fear about doing different things. Wow.
- [12:15]
George Sorial
And I think you think that's really what entrenches somebody in that inability to see the potential in the risk. It's that fear. It's that core fear.
- [12:28]
Ryan
Change is a trigger for fear. And there's nothing wrong with fear. We're all scared at some point. It's really how you react and manage fear. And I think in some ways, fear of a new challenge at work is exciting and it can really motivate you and bring the best out of you. I mean, some people, when you put them under pressure, crack, you know, others become diamonds. So I think it's one of the things that I was blessed with. You know, some may say you're just plain old stupid, you know, leaving something that.
- [13:08]
George Sorial
It's that first generation immigrant mindset.
- [13:11]
Ryan
But, you know, there was something really appealing to me about, you know, I'd always respected him. Yeah, I'd always admired, you know, how diverse his career had been. It's not just real estate, casinos, there's books, there's television, and then, you know, oh, by the way, he goes into politics when he's in his 70 at the highest level. But he's a person that I always respected and, you know, quite frankly, I was a little bit starstruck, I think, like anybody would be. And I said to myself, you know, there's no losing here. Going to work for this person and his family. I don't think I would ever regret it. And that really, you know, I came in, I was pretty clueless. I initially did legal work, but really, by the second or third month I was there, I was heavily involved in development and really, Scotland. Aberdeen was my first project. And I was sent over there with the remit that this would be an easy one. And it turned into a battle on many levels. Politically. We fought with many, you know, you name the environmental group, you know, it really turned out to be a seven or eight year chunk of my life. Wow, that was extraordinarily difficult at times.
- [14:30]
George Sorial
Did he. Do you think he knew how hard it was gonna be? And he's like, let's see how the kid does it?
- [14:34]
Ryan
No, no, I don't think so, Danny. We didn't think it would be as challenging as it was. And, you know, initially we had a couple of stumbles. You know, there was a very difficult hearing that didn't go my way. There was a lot of screaming and yelling. But, you know, I got a very interesting call from him late that night, and he said, calm down. Put your bulletproof vest on and get up, and we're going to fight this. And I remember at the time, he said to me, you know, in some ways, when you don't get what you want the first time, it's better when you win.
- [15:16]
George Sorial
Talk about premonition.
- [15:18]
Ryan
Talk about a paradigm.
- [15:21]
George Sorial
Yeah, right.
- [15:22]
Ryan
But, you know, really, in a long way, to answer your question, you know, I really enjoyed working with him. He, you know, there's a whole side to him that we all see on television. But as a person, that worked for me. I think I've said it publicly many times. I just did a series a year or so for Fox, and they asked me, what did you think about him? And the way I described it is really short of my own mother and father. There's a handful of people in life that have done a lot for me, and certainly President Trump is on that list of, I can't think of too many more people aside from my own parents. Think of the magnitude of that. That's massive that, you know, that did so much for me. And I, you know, my wife also worked with him. That's how we met. So we're 100% Trump family.
- [16:18]
George Sorial
You're telling me that I. I don't even know how. How she ended up working for him because she should have been painting pictures down in central soho.
- [16:28]
David Rutherford
You know, she's one of the best.
- [16:29]
George Sorial
Artists I've seen, man.
- [16:31]
Ryan
Her story is remarkably, you know, she came out of Texas. Texas. Flew up to New York, didn't know anybody.
- [16:36]
George Sorial
Yeah.
- [16:37]
Ryan
Responded to an agency ad, and all of a sudden they're sitting in his office and he hired her. But, you know, brave, brave to leave a small Texas town and come to New York. A lot of people get lost, but, you know, she did well. So we're a whole, we're, we're a Trump family. He's been great. He's been good to us.
- [16:55]
George Sorial
Well, and I think that's, that's the real challenge for so many people is it is the Persona, right? It is the guy on the Apprentice. It is the, the notorious, you know, New York realtor, you know, real estate guy. It's the guy who's in the rap videos and in the rap songs. And it's, you know, the Persona is so much bigger than, than as is typical for the man. But what I hear from people like you and other, like maybe Keith and other people that have spent a lot of time with him, you know, there's a different component of him that draws out the loyalty in people. Can you describe seeing that over the years that you worked with him and people coming in and out and what that loyalty and the impact it had on the organization he has?
- [17:46]
Ryan
You know, it's interesting. Certain people, you know, appeal to one demographic, but certain people appeal to all demographics. And I would say that Trump is one of those people that, whether it's children, men, women, name the ethnicity. He's popular. He likes to get out. You know, it's obviously different now he's the president, but prior to all that, he very much would enjoy going out and just being with people. Walking down a street in Manhattan, going to a movie, going to a restaurant, he would not want to be in the back private room. He wanted to be out with people. And I saw it over and over again. You know, again, you name the demographic, people coming up to him for autographs, for photographs, and he shook every hand, stopped and spoke to everybody. I think one of the things that people found remarkable about him because, you know, when I would introduce him to people, there was a certain expectation going in that he was going to be a certain way and inevitably the same responses would come out. He's amazingly focused. I felt he was really focused on me.
- [19:02]
George Sorial
Wow.
- [19:03]
Ryan
He's down to earth. He's easy to talk to. He Remembered my name. There was a certain sort of old world charm about him. The kind of person that when you came into his office, he would rise to shake your hand. The organization was a very different place, but in some ways, a lot of the old formalities were observed there. Polite, how people spoke to each other, although at times things could get a little bit rough because people were passionate about what they did and tempers would flare. But there was always a high level of respect, and there were none of this. It was a suit and tie. Every day. It was a very different place to work, but it was also a family and a very tightly knit group of people that, you know, if you got it, there were people that would come in and, you know, within a year, they'd be gone. But there was a lot of people that stayed there for a very long time. I mean, I was in the organization for 13, 14 years and five or six years prior, working very closely with it. There was a lot of people that were there a lot longer than me. There's a lot of people that were there that are still there after I left. So it's not really an uncommon thing. But some of the stuff that I spoke about, and it wasn't just Trump, it was his whole family. Don, Ivanka, Eric, they were all held in high regard and respected because they worked alongside everybody. They weren't treated any differently. So it was a respect that was earned. Earned by kind of being in the trenches as opposed to being a part of the family. So, you know, again, you have children, I have children. You can see a lot about a person by looking at their kids.
- [21:00]
George Sorial
Right.
- [21:00]
Ryan
You know, your kids. In some ways, it's a humbling things to say, but they are a reflection of who you are. Look at his kids, look at his kids relative to others, and I think that speaks volumes for, you know, how they were raised.
- [21:15]
George Sorial
Yeah. I don't see Eric, his laptop getting out and discovering what we've seen in other cases. Right. Yeah. It's just a different. A different.
- [21:26]
Ryan
Totally different breed. You know, there's a certain discipline. Yes. That I think that you don't see, you know, in other, you know, first families, let's just say for sure. But they were good people. They treated everybody well. You know, by extension, the way the father treated people. That's how the kids treated people in the company. So, again, you know, it was really. I really enjoyed working there. I'm never gonna say, hey, is the highlight of my career, I'd like to think, you know, you never know what's Going on. It's still coming.
- [21:56]
George Sorial
That's right, that's right.
- [21:57]
Ryan
But I really enjoyed working there. I'm still very close with all of them. I still speak with people in the organization all the time. I try to do some work with them when I can, but it's really, it was a time in my life and my career that I really reflect fondly on.
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- [27:48]
George Sorial
All right?
- [27:48]
Ryan
Right.
- [27:49]
George Sorial
Benjoy Huya going back on in those spaces where you guys were really establishing a whole new level of international leisure in hotels, I mean, you really became a juggernaut in the industry. Was it surprising to you that he would want to go into politics when he had all that taking place? I think that's one of the greatest. I, you know, when I see the debates kind of all filter down to the focal point, the thing that always emerges is why would this guy who had the ultimate life, the ultimate business, he was loved by everybody, why would he ever kind of pick a side and choose to go into this?
- [28:41]
Ryan
Interesting question. And, you know, look, I'm not going to attempt to answer for him, but I'll just give you my thoughts and my views. You're right, David. He didn't need this. He had a very nice life prior to what he got himself into. But again, from what I observed was a growing frustration with the trajectory of the United States that maybe started the. From what I know, anyway, I mean, I know there's some older statements and interviews that he did, but what I started to see started probably in 2012, should I run? Should I do this? And there was kind of this voice obviously in his head that, you know, things aren't going the way they should be. He very much had this ethos, which I think you have and I have, that if people like us don't take action and try to tackle some of these challenges, who's going to do it? Okay. You can't just sit back and say somebody else is going to handle the problem. You're confronted with a problem, you have to do it. And I know you understand that based on you made the ultimate sacrifice. But I think he was going through that same kind of analysis. 2012 came, he didn't do it. There were some rumblings, and I think he regretted it. And that voice got louder and louder and louder. And then there would start to be one of the interesting things about how Trump makes decisions. I mean, ultimately, he makes his own decisions. He's been accused of not listening to anybody, which is really the exact opposite. He listens to everybody. Okay. The example that I always give, if we wanted to put a rug in a ballroom, he would have five or six samples on his desk. Every single person that came in the office. What do you think? What do you think? What do you think?
- [30:42]
George Sorial
Yeah.
- [30:43]
Ryan
So he started those types of questionings about, should I run? Should I run? Yeah, Should I run for president? Should I do this? I think initially he had some thoughts of running for governor. Mm, Maybe the, the mayor of New York. But, you know, if he was going.
- [31:04]
George Sorial
To do it, why not go to.
- [31:05]
Ryan
The biggest, Go big. So there was A, you know, 2016, I guess the voice just, you know, became where he, you know, he finally had to concede to that voice in his head, and he ran. And I remember, was there backlash in.
- [31:21]
George Sorial
The organization and with the family.
- [31:23]
Ryan
There was a lot of, you know, it was a family run business. I mean, although the footprint for the organization is broad and global, you know, when you talk about the higher level, it's a pretty small group of people. You know, there was some concern about what, what's this is going to open up. You know, the organization was very much led by him. Okay. As much as there were others, you know, his children were very well respected. I mean, there was no clear, you know, there's nothing more clear than who ran the company.
- [31:58]
George Sorial
Right.
- [31:59]
Ryan
So there was that kind of, you know, where is this going to go? But I think when everyone, you know, I remember he once asked me and I said, well, you know, if you're going to run from behind your desk in Fifth Avenue, I don't know what's going to happen. But. And I really meant it. I said to him, if you're going to get out and meet people, I think you can win.
- [32:22]
George Sorial
Really? You felt that?
- [32:23]
Ryan
Yeah, because there was something, you know, there was once, you know, he took a lot of pride in kind of giving his views on things and trying to teach the people that he worked with. And, you know, there was one day where we were working, we were on a construction site and he, he just said to me, you know, I'm successful. People ask me all the time. Why am I successful? And he said, it's really easy. I just, I look away. People want, and I give it to him.
- [32:49]
George Sorial
Right.
- [32:50]
Ryan
So he's also a voracious reader. I mean, he reads everything. And, you know, if you think about the elegance and the simplicity of that statement, I look at what people want and I give it to them. You know, again, that's another paradigm for what he did in 2016.
- [33:10]
George Sorial
Right.
- [33:10]
Ryan
People got fed up of the politicians. I mean, even, you know, everybody from, you know, it doesn't matter.
- [33:18]
George Sorial
It's Bush, what your bomber career was.
- [33:20]
Ryan
What side of the aisle you were. You know, even people like myself who try to be, you know, I watch the news. People were getting fed up with what was going on. And I say that that means both sides of the aisle. And it was really refreshing to have a business person like him, who was not a Washington guy, come in and really bring a new approach to how we ran our country. Because I think, again, I don't want to get too political in this conversation, but I think everyone would agree that DC Was in need of something different. We may disagree about what that solution is, and that's fine. Pretty definitive, I would say, too, David. And there's nothing wrong with political discourse. There's nothing wrong with a wide variety of political opinions. I mean, I'm still friends with many people that disagree, but I think we all kind of had this feeling that we need something different. And he answered that voice.
- [34:34]
George Sorial
Yeah.
- [34:35]
Ryan
Now, whatever you think about him, and, you know, again, I don't see him through rose colored lenses. There are things that, like anybody he says and does that, you know, we may say and do differently, but I think what people found very attractive is, you know, what came from inside. The motivation was pure.
- [34:55]
George Sorial
Right?
- [34:56]
Ryan
Okay. The motivation was to undo this damage and change the trajectory of. I don't care what anybody says. I can say this. As an immigrant, I was raised with the ethos that the United States is the envy of the world.
- [35:15]
George Sorial
Right.
- [35:15]
Ryan
Do we do it perfectly? No. There is no such thing as perfection. But people from all over the world still to this day come here and they find freedom and they enjoy a lifestyle that doesn't exist for the overwhelming majority of people on this earth. I mean, we can go on a show like this and I can criticize the President. I can say anything I want. Most countries, you can't do that. No, you're going to somewhere. I think there are a lot of people in this country that don't appreciate that freedom, but that's something that my parents would say to me, envy of the world almost on a daily basis, the United States is the envy of the world. You're lucky to be here. We would spend a lot of time traveling, seeing our family in the Middle east, you know, even around Europe. And I felt that when I came home, I said, I'm really happy that I'm home.
- [36:10]
George Sorial
Wow, that's cool.
- [36:13]
Ryan
So I think he went there, he felt to kind of rekindle that pride. Greatness of America. Because I, you know, again, I don't want to be partisan, but I think we can all agree that, you know, look at Reagan, let's say, for example, look at the greatness of America.
- [36:27]
George Sorial
That's right.
- [36:28]
Ryan
We had fallen. As a guy that at the time was going all over the world, apologizing, working with different people, you could see that we had lost our luster. And people would kind of take you aside and say, what's going on?
- [36:43]
George Sorial
Well, I think for me, I felt that just in my service alone, I mean, I worked for Clinton, I worked for George Bush Jr. And I worked for Obama. And you know, the transition, Obviously prior pre 9 11, I mean, you know, I think the fiasco of Somalia and Mogadishu, the fiasco of probably the Cobar Tower bombings and you know, just the, the non strength that Clinton was projecting was definitely felt in, in the organization, in special operations. And then obviously 911 exploded. But then after 10 years and we're conducting, you know, random drone strikes against American citizens and, you know, and their children, it's like, okay, where are we at now?
- [37:36]
Ryan
Peace through strength.
- [37:38]
George Sorial
Yeah. And. But at what cost? Right? And I think what we had done is we had ex. We had exhausted that goodwill of America as well too, and we had contorted it. And, and that leads me back to this idea. All right, so he makes this decision and goes in. What were some of the misconceptions, do you believe that. That not only the organization, but his team and his political team that they didn't expect and what they faced.
- [38:09]
Ryan
I, I don't think anybody ever expected the magnitude of hatred. Okay. And I'm very specific to use that word, just hatred that was thrown his way. Okay. I can tell you, you know, and again, I'm speaking from my own personal. When someone, when Obama was elected, I wasn't happy that night. I woke up the next morning and I said to myself, okay, maybe something good will come out of him. Maybe I'm wrong. This person is going to be the next president of the United States. I Will support him, I will respect him, and I will hope and pray that he is the best president ever. Why? Because I'm an American and I want to support my president succeeds, the nation succeeds.
- [39:00]
George Sorial
Right.
- [39:01]
Ryan
He never was given any of that. It was starting election night. Tear him down, smear him, malign him with lies, malign his family with lies. I mean, I don't have to go back much further than Russia and all that nonsense which has now been completely, completely disproven, debunked. And I will add that nobody's been held accountable for that.
- [39:31]
George Sorial
Not one. I just released the show a little bit ago stating this whole thing like, all right, great, but where's the persecution, right? Where, when are we going to have some conviction? Just give me one person, right? Even if you, you know, even if you throw an indictment at James Comey, John Brennan, whoever you want for, even if it's not for the president, it's at Mike Flynn or whatever capacity, the.
- [40:00]
Ryan
FISA people, the guys, let's hope it's coming, David. And that's not, you know, people label it as, oh, it's not a revenge tour.
- [40:08]
George Sorial
It's justice.
- [40:09]
Ryan
It's justice. It's holding people who have broken the law. Okay. Broken the law. Holding them accountable. Okay? So it was really this whole wave of hatred and what's really hatred, Hatred is evil. And I don't think anybody really expected, you know, and again, you weren't really dealing with a naive group of people, but nobody really expected what the challenges that came at him from day one. It was just an onslaught and it really lasted. I mean, what else could they throw at him? There was still going on investigations and Pete's still going on impeachments, you know, assassination attempts. There's a real, there's just a sickness. But, you know, I, I, again, being positive, I think there are fringe elements and they're on both sides for sure. You have crazies on the right and you have crazies on the left. But what I have seen and what I find really encouraging is I think when you get down to the nitty gritty and you scrape below, you know, the politics on the surface, most people are actually, you know, and it's something that I talk about all the time. They're the same.
- [41:28]
George Sorial
Yes.
- [41:29]
Ryan
Okay, what do we want? We want to be able to live in freedom. We want to be able to have families. We want to support our families. We want to be able to worship freely. We want our children to have futures. You could say that about a Democrat or Republican or anything doesn't matter. So I think the good news is, although we're being fed otherwise, I don't think that we are as divided as we're being told we are. And I have a lot of optimism about despite some of the craziness that's been hurled at DJT over the first hundred or so days. Wherever we are right now, I think when we get through some of the really difficult challenges that we're dealing with right now, we all know what they are. I do think that you're going to see Trump actually uniting people because, you know, I saw it in the organization. I saw it in his leadership style. He isn't the person that he's painted out to be. And he has an amazing ability of bringing people together.
- [42:39]
George Sorial
Right.
- [42:39]
Ryan
And you can even see it now what's going on internationally. You know, again, I don't profess to be an economic expert and I don't want to talk too much about tariffs. You know, for better or for worse, they're bringing people to the table to have discussions about, okay, how can we level set, what's a better way to move forward? You know, again, maybe it isn't the most elegant way, but sometimes you need a disruptor to bring in change.
- [43:11]
George Sorial
Well, I agree. Couldn't agree more. And I think what DC what we're seeing and what we have seen as a result of, of him being the conduit for this hatred, you know, because he was, he was, you couldn't buy him off. And I think that was the thing that disrupted the Blob or the deep State or whatever you call it. So fundamentally, we've seen this now, you know, when you have, you know, the DOGE and exposing what USAID was actually spending money on and $50 billion and their annual budget and, and we're, you know, the craziness that we're getting, you know, that's going to disrupt a lot of people's bank accounts and that's going to disrupt the status quo in D.C. you have now, since taking a break, leaving the organization in 17, was it?
- [44:01]
Ryan
I left in 2019. I 2019.
- [44:04]
George Sorial
Okay.
- [44:04]
Ryan
When he became president, David, I kind of transitioned. I was executive vice president and council, much more focused on the development side. I became chief compliance counsel, EVP and chief compliance counsel globally. So I dealt with a lot of the issues that were initially hurled at him, Mollyman's issues. And I spent a fair amount of time going back and forth in Washington dealing with various congressional questions and inquiries.
- [44:32]
George Sorial
What was that like? I mean, here you're going and you're doing deals and now all of a sudden you're, you know, having, I mean, compliance within the government is, is a matrix in and of itself. And now you're being thrust into dealing with people that have potentially a nefarious political agenda. What was that?
- [44:54]
Ryan
You know, looking back, I, I certainly was naive. It was not something that I had any experience and, you know, again, my career once again pivoted. But I think it was, you know, it was an interesting opportunity. There was a need for it. They had all been very good to me. I really wasn't in a position to go and join the administration for many reasons. So this was a way that I could really help.
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- [46:24]
Ryan
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Hey, I was just in an accident.
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Ryan
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Ryan
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George Sorial
It's.
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- [50:38]
Ryan
So I took the challenge, you know, happily, but it wasn't any, you know, and I should also say I had a very, very good team of people. We had, you know, people within the organization. We had a whole field of people that were really expert in that subject. So I certainly, you know, I was probably the smallest, you know, cog on that wheel of trying to figure all this stuff out. But it was interesting because there weren't regulations or statutes or case law that we could go to. This was the first time something like this had ever really happened.
- [51:13]
George Sorial
Wow.
- [51:14]
Ryan
So we had all these people coming to us and, you know, saying, you know, the initial issue that we dealt with was this whole issue of the emoluments and, oh, some people would say, well, you have to sell everything. And then I would respond by saying, well, you think it's really that easy when you sell a house, put it on the market, it may sit there for a year. You know what it's like trying to sell a $300 million hotel. And then, oh, by the way, you can't sell to people connected with foreign governments, which puts out everybody in the Middle east and India and Asia, the people would normally buy these things. So it was really difficult. But we endeav to do the best we can in an unscripted territory. Wow. And, you know, I think we did a very good job. But, you know, to answer your question, again, no. Nobody expected the depth of the hatred, the complexity of the challenge, and really the, you know, if I'm being sincere, I mean, the insanity that was hurled at us. I mean, you had half a government or Moore that was trying to tear their own president down in every way they could. People talk about, oh, the deep state, whatever you want to call it, but you have this whole class of entrenched civil servants, 99% of them are extremely far left, and I witnessed it over and over again, that they would take it upon themselves to try to interfere with the will of the president, the man that was elected lawfully. Lawfully. By its citizens. So that whole spirit that we hope, I think that makes us different as Americans, where somebody gets elected and you support them, even if maybe it's not the person you chose, but you support them for the good of the nation. Yeah. You respect the office for whatever reason. All that stuff went out the window. And.
- [53:15]
George Sorial
Well, I mean, I think the clearest sensation is, you know, there's a group of traditional Washington insiders, those bureaucratic lifers, if you will, that understand the complexities of the grift. And they've gotten really good. I mean, when you look at that, you know, just the. The web of NGOs, right. The 7,000 or so NGOs that are affiliated with the State Department, USAID, and some of these other organizations, the center for an Institute for Peace or, you know, these things, it's like, wait a minute, what's going on? How does this work? Well, they. They figure it out. And it's that.
- [53:59]
Ryan
That cyclical thing, you cesspool of money.
- [54:02]
George Sorial
That's right. It's the cesspool.
- [54:03]
Ryan
And it's. It's our money.
- [54:05]
George Sorial
That's right.
- [54:05]
Ryan
That's the thing that's so disgusting, David, is that. You know, another thing that amazes me, whatever you think about Elon Musk and all that, this was a man that came from nothing.
- [54:15]
George Sorial
Yes.
- [54:16]
Ryan
Okay. And built what he built and overcame so many. We should be so grateful to have people like that. They're willing to come forward and serve. But it just shows you how sick there's a. How sick these people are. And we could talk about. You know, I happen to think that there's a lot of. It is evil, although they throw that. You know, that's another thing. These are people that say they're just.
- [54:45]
George Sorial
That's right.
- [54:46]
Ryan
In challenging the president and doing everything they're doing because we're taking on evil.
- [54:50]
George Sorial
Yeah.
- [54:51]
Ryan
You got to be very.
- [54:51]
George Sorial
David, use the terms. Right.
- [54:53]
Ryan
You got to be very careful, David, when you. You use that word.
- [54:57]
George Sorial
Right.
- [54:57]
Ryan
But having lived through what I lived through, and believe me, on the spectrum of people that encountered headaches, the headaches that I encountered were very minor.
- [55:09]
George Sorial
Right.
- [55:10]
Ryan
Compared to others and certainly Compared to the family and him, nobody. Nobody contemplated that level of hatred.
- [55:21]
George Sorial
I heard at one point, point that his legal bills a month were 20.
- [55:27]
Ryan
30 million plus would not surprise me.
- [55:30]
George Sorial
Yeah.
- [55:30]
Ryan
And, you know, aside from just a mental train, right. Of being, you know, questioned, investigated, challenged, you know, here you are trying to run a nation which still leads the world. I mean, we do have a responsibility. I'm not going to suggest that America needs to be the world's policeman, but we are leaders, and we do have a responsibility, especially towards weaker nations, to lead, to protect, okay? To provide support. So you have all those challenges in addition to managing the domestic headache, and you have every person out there that disagrees with you trying to undermine and destroy you. Not easy, but it also shows you the strength. I mean, this guy's a warrior, David, for sure. This guy just thrives on conflict. And that never give up ethos. I mean, that's another thing that was really instilled in all of us in the organization. You don't quit. You don't quit under any circumstance. So that's something that I very much try to instill in my own children and in the people around us. We can fail. Okay? Failure is acceptable. As a matter of fact, you measure, you know, what a person is made of when they fail. You see, can they get up? Can they. You know, we all fail, right? But quitting, no way. It's just not an option.
- [57:02]
George Sorial
Wow.
- [57:03]
Ryan
And I think that's something that, you know, sometimes people will say, what makes somebody successful? And I think, you know, certainly that, you know, I don't quit. That mentality is, you know, a primary. Primary driver of how you're going to do in life.
- [57:22]
George Sorial
Well, it's interesting where we. We kind of really intensified our. Our relationship was. There's around that time where you had decided, like, I'm done. I just want to get away from it. I want to go. Want my life back. I want all of that. And, you know, we. We talked. We'd have these beautiful talks about, you know, the intensity of. Of. Of what that integrity looks like being in the fight, the never quit mindset. And those are, you know, some of my most fondest memories during those very difficult times over the last four years, because as. As you and your colleagues watched, a relentless pursuit, if you will. You know, I saw, you know, my colleagues in the work that we've done essentially demoralized in terms of the Afghan withdrawal, you know, the attempted conviction of Eddie Gallagher, you know, all of this madness that, like, you know, on a different space and A different industry, obviously, but it was there. And so the recognition of that potential and what it grew into, I think is transformative. And it really affected me. You know, I, I, you know, it got me back wanting to do this, but to do it in, in a way that now I can have these conversations when we can discuss these things in a much more articulate or, or a sense not sensitive, but more an intimate measure. Right. A reflection of, hey, what are the challenges and what looking forward to coming through all of that transition. You know, you re engaged in that never quit mindset. And you launched Javelin Advisors. Can you talk a little bit why you wanted to do that, knowing what the landscape you had just kind of navigated for the prior eight years and what you and your team hope to accomplish moving forward?
- [59:23]
Ryan
Sure. Javelin Advisors is a government relations consulting and lobbying firm. We're based in Washington. The genesis behind it was really simple. We had this favorable change politically, and we saw it a, you know, obviously as an opportunity for us to do something different for ourselves, for our families. But equally, or maybe more importantly, we saw it as an opportunity to do some good. But we know a lot of people that are currently in government and we would like to use those contacts to help to do some good. So myself, my longtime friend Keith Schiller, and also my longtime friend Rob Seiden, we all came together and said, look, let's see if we could do some good here. And none of us. I worked with Keith for a long time in the Trump Organization. Keith started his career in the Navy, then he spent many years in law enforcement, NYPD detective, then came on board for the organization. He was head of security globally, was also President Trump's personal bodyguard. And when President Trump went to the Oval Office, Keith was director of operations for the Oval Office. Robert Seiden is another close friend, longtime lawyer, legendary New York City prosecutor under the great Bob Morgenthau. I think he spent 15 years in there, never lost a case.
- [61:01]
George Sorial
Wow.
- [61:01]
Ryan
He has his own specialty firm. They're a litigation boutique shop. And he also has an investigations firm globally. His firm actually did a lot of the investigations for the organization when we were vetting partners. So that's initially how I met Rob. So it was a closely knit, tight group of people. And we brought in, you know, we've a lot of other people that work for us, but we're very focused. We're focused on higher level West Wing cabinet. We're currently doing some pharaoh work. We have a number of different clients, but again, the focus is to try to do some good, try to do some good for the United States, try to bring some not so friendly governments closer to the United States. Introduce the whole concept of economic diplomacy. Well, I shouldn't really say introduce. It's something that's been out, revitalized, reinforce it that. You know, I'll even go so far as to say this. You know, in the Middle east, there's a lot of players there that over the past 20 or 30 years, they may not love each other, but they started to work together, they started to do business with each other. One step at a time. Hey, I'm doing business with this guy. He's on the other side of the line, but he's got a wife like I do. He's got kids like I do. He's got the same sort of drives in life. So through that concept of doing business, you start to get to know people. And, you know, again, I can use the Middle East. I can even use places like Northern Ireland where I've done a lot of work. Different parties may not love each other, there's still some distrust, but they're working together. There's peace, they're moving in the right direction. So that was a big part of the push for what we're doing by trying to bring in these concepts of economic diplomacy to try to do some good for the United States and for our clients.
- [63:01]
George Sorial
I think that is a fascinating analysis. So often people throw out that term, term of lobbyists, and the. The negative connotation is already infused into it regardless. Right. But what people don't understand is that beneath the. The geopolitical aspect, right. The. Your army's. This army. We're. This. We're gonna. This is how we're gonna establish some type of interaction. There's a million other avenues towards that. And the most most predominant and effective tool is through business.
- [63:36]
Ryan
That's right.
- [63:37]
George Sorial
And people don't understand that.
- [63:39]
Ryan
It's a very powerful tool. Business brings prosperity. When people can work, they can feed and provide for their families, it's less likely they're going to fight with each other. Right. So that's a big part of what we're doing. You know, I can't get into minutia, but we are doing a lot of work with Pakistan.
- [64:00]
George Sorial
Wow.
- [64:01]
Ryan
We are foreign agents. We registered under Farah. And, you know, initially, I'd be disingenuous to admit that it wasn't something that we thought about and, you know, did a lot of kind of internal discussion. But what we found, we've confirmed. I mean, they are Very. Pakistan has an interesting past, but, but the current regime that we're working with, these are very smart, well educated, pro West. They did what they had to do under prior administrations that maybe didn't treat them so well. But everything that we're seeing now is a willingness to work with the United States on all levels, to trade with us, to share information with us. You know, a lot of what the administration. And again, I should say very clearly that I am not part of the administration. I was never part of the administration. I don't speak on behalf of the administration. But a lot of the efforts now are counter China. We've put ourselves in a very vulnerable position, whether it's with medications or minerals, where we're dependent on a, you know, I don't know if you want to call them a hostile power, but a foreign power for things that we need. And we're all guilty of it, David. I mean, you know, we, we paid a dollar for something that had we made here would have cost us three. I mean, this is 30 years of.
- [65:33]
George Sorial
Of, of exporting that, that thing for.
- [65:35]
Ryan
Cheaper labor at the cost of our own national security. National security, our own citizens. We're trying to pull it all back.
- [65:43]
George Sorial
Well, that's fascinating to me. I, you know, we, you talked a little bit about, you just mentioned minerals. And for what most people don't understand is how pivotal rare earth minerals are for the development of pretty much almost every new technology that's out there.
- [65:59]
Ryan
Cell phones, watches, vehicles, of course, the defense sector. I mean, you, you name you know, the item or the sector, and you will find that minerals are needed. You know, minerals are needed. Lithium is needed for batteries. Well, guess what, 95% of our minerals are sourced from foreign adversaries, mainly China and Russia. And what's even more maddening is that the excavation that we're doing here in the United States. For example, there's a rare earth facility in Mountain Pass, California. We don't have refineries here. So anything that gets pulled out of the ground is sent to China and then comes, are you kidding me? No. So we've allowed ourselves over decades to become extremely vulnerable. And this was actually something that Trump won. The first administration recognized as not just a supply chain issue, but a matter of national security.
- [67:02]
George Sorial
Wow.
- [67:02]
Ryan
And the tragedy of it as well is that we have a lot of different, these materials here in the United States. So there's a real effort now to change some of the regulations that have been holding up drilling to start to mine and refine these minerals here in the United States. But in the interim, you know, it's going to, it doesn't happen overnight. No, you know, it's a five to ten year process. We're headed down the race. But we have countries again, like Pakistan that are coming to. Again, these are not countries that historically have been that aligned with the United States, but now they're coming in to fill these gaps. And I see a real willingness from Pakistan and a number of other nations to kind of move away from where they've been with China and become much more aligned with the United States.
- [67:57]
George Sorial
That's just fascinating. I'm, you know, you always hope in the people get so caught up on the wave tops of what they're seeing on a regular basis, and they don't understand the minutiae of the energy that drives the wave top. And so it's fascinating that you can come on and really illuminate that a little bit more for people.
- [68:19]
Ryan
Yeah, these are tremendous. I mean, if you think about it, you know, I think, like, let's all be optimistic about the whole situation now that's brewing between India and Pakistan, because these are two great nations that have over 2 billion people that have tremendous resource, tremendous history. You know, I saw the president make a comment coming off of Air Force One that, you know, look, we want to resolve this by doing deals and getting everybody to work together instead of with, with bullets. And I thought that was a great, love it, you know, thing. We, we have to stop, you know, resist this urge to engage in kinetic warfare. I think you can understand. It's not, you know, to me, you go to war, is it necessary? Yes. When all else fails, it's necessary. And we're very grateful that we have people that are willing and able to do it. But it represents a failure. And really we should try to exhaust every remedy before going that route. And I think this whole concept of economic diplomacy, it's brilliant. It's a sound one, and let's exhaust that and a number of other things before we send people's children, people's brothers, people's sisters, people's sons, people's daughters, people's husbands and wives to face bullets. And I think it's something that I have great admiration. I mean, the president is strong. He's not going to hesitate to defend us when necessary. But I think he respects that it's a last resort on that.
- [70:02]
George Sorial
Just tell the audience a little bit about your book.
- [70:07]
Ryan
Yeah, I wrote a book, David. You know, it was published years ago, but really the reasoning behind it, again, it was not something That I ever, you know, I never set out in my life to write a book.
- [70:20]
George Sorial
Right.
- [70:21]
Ryan
But, you know, I was having a conversation once in the Oval Office and he was very frustrated about, you know, people that had written books about me. And he made a comment that, you know, people, they sit with me for an hour and they say that they're my biographer and they write books. So I said, look, I'd like to write a book. And I got that stare for about 30 seconds. And he said, go ahead and do it. And to his credit, the book that you're holding, that's the version that he saw. There was no interference. I had a lot of help from my co author and a number of other people that contributed to the book. But it was really an attempt to, you show the other side of him through example, through stories. It's a compilation of stories. It's very easy to read, very easy to digest. It doesn't really delve too much into the politics, but it gives you a slice of stories about what he was like, what it was like to work in the organization, what it was like to work in the family, how we handle challenges, how we dealt with failure, how we dealt with victory. So it kind of gives you an insight into what, what he's like. And I've had people over the years, David, because I, you know, we went out and promoted it heavily and, you know, we went on all the, we did all the media circuit.
- [71:41]
George Sorial
Right.
- [71:41]
Ryan
I spoke at probably 50 different venues. I've had people come up to me and said, I hated the guy, but I read your book and I look at him a little different.
- [71:50]
George Sorial
Oh, wow.
- [71:51]
Ryan
And it makes me, it makes me really happy. That's kind of what I tried to do.
- [71:57]
George Sorial
Yeah.
- [71:59]
Ryan
So it was an attempt to really show the human side of him that I know. And it was also, it was a fun, rewarding thing to do. I think there's probably another book or two once you get through it, you know. And again, I really did have a lot of help from my co author. But once you, once you get through it, the drive to do it again, you know, so I have that little voice now in my head that's like, you got to do. Do a part two.
- [72:23]
George Sorial
Well, that. Let's hope that part two comes after a very successful term. And so I, I hope you enjoyed this with George Sorial. He's an amazing human being, a great friend. Check him out on LinkedIn. He's got Soreal Consulting if you're interested. They deal a ton with business development, any type of other type of real estate development. They're a wonderful consulting firm. Or if you're interested, check out Javelin Advisors.
- [72:56]
Ryan
Thank you, thank you David.
- [72:59]
George Sorial
Thank you so much.
- [72:59]
Ryan
My pleasure my friend. I'm always happy to come and talk to you brother. God bless you.
- [73:08]
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- [74:07]
Jana Kramer
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Ryan
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Jana Kramer
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- [76:34]
Ryan
Com.
- [76:35]
Jana Kramer
Terms and conditions apply. This is an iHeart podcast.