Why Boys Are Struggling In America & How Dads Can Save Them | Dr. Warren Farrell | Ep. 36

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show Episode: Why Boys Are Struggling In America & How Dads Can Save Them | Dr. Warren Farrell | Ep. 36
Release Date: July 21, 2025
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
Guest: Dr. Warren Farrell

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Introduction to the Topic

In Episode 36 of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, host David Rutherford engages in a profound discussion with Dr. Warren Farrell about the escalating struggles faced by boys in America. Dr. Farrell, renowned for his work on the "Boy Crisis," delves into the root causes of these challenges and emphasizes the crucial role of fathers in mitigating them.

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The Crisis of Education for Boys

Timestamp: [05:00]

Dr. Farrell articulates the severity of the educational crisis among boys, attributing it largely to the absence or minimal involvement of fathers. He introduces the concept of "dad-deprived" boys—those who, while not fatherless, lack meaningful paternal engagement.

Dr. Warren Farrell ([06:54]): "The most important single thing is Dad's understanding that children benefit more from Dad's time than Dad's dime."

He contrasts the impact of "dad-style" parenting with "mom-style" parenting, highlighting how fathers contribute uniquely through roughhousing, teasing, and enforcing boundaries, which in turn fosters empathy and resilience in boys.

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Roughhousing and Empathy Development

Timestamp: [07:30]

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the importance of roughhousing in building emotional intelligence. Dr. Farrell explains that roughhousing, often resisted by mothers due to safety concerns, is pivotal for boys to develop empathy and the ability to postpone gratification.

Dr. Warren Farrell ([08:15]): "Roughhousing is connected to empathy... children are required to think of their siblings' feelings about being hurt, which begins to create empathy."

He emphasizes that the enforcement of boundaries during such play teaches boys discipline and respect, which are essential for their personal growth and ability to handle life’s challenges.

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Impact of COVID-19 on Mental Health

Timestamp: [05:50]

David Rutherford raises concerns about the post-COVID landscape, noting alarming increases in teenage suicides among both girls and boys. He underscores the exacerbated mental health issues stemming from the pandemic, particularly for boys lacking positive paternal figures.

David Rutherford ([05:50]): "Teenage suicide increased by 50%. Boys' suicide shot up as well."

Dr. Farrell concurs, reinforcing that the pandemic magnified existing vulnerabilities in the educational and emotional support systems for boys.

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Behavioral Conditioning and Consequences

Timestamp: [13:39]

The discussion shifts to behavioral psychology, where Dr. Farrell highlights the role of consequences in shaping behavior. He draws parallels to training environments, illustrating how consistent enforcement of boundaries leads to better behavioral outcomes in boys.

Dr. Warren Farrell ([15:00]): "Postponed gratification is the single biggest predictor of success or failure in life."

David Rutherford shares personal anecdotes about the effectiveness of stringent consequences in training young men, reinforcing the necessity of balancing physical activity with emotional intelligence.

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Programs and Legislative Efforts

Timestamp: [30:59]

Dr. Farrell outlines successful initiatives aimed at addressing the boy crisis, notably Florida’s legislative efforts which allocated $70 million to enhance paternal involvement. He advocates for comprehensive programs, including shared parenting laws and community-based initiatives like Boys to Men and Young Men's Ultimate Weekend.

Dr. Warren Farrell ([31:59]): "The most important single thing is dads understanding why their role... children benefit more from dad's time than dad's dime."

He stresses the need for a White House Council on Boys and Men to coordinate national efforts in supporting father involvement and mitigating the boy crisis.

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Role of Fathers in Single-Parent Households

Timestamp: [47:50]

Addressing single-parent families, Dr. Farrell provides actionable advice for mothers raising boys. He emphasizes the necessity of involving biological or stepfathers in a meaningful way and ensuring boys engage in sports to develop discipline and teamwork.

Dr. Warren Farrell ([51:50]): "If your son is unwilling to be involved in those sports, deprive him of things or her of things until they get involved."

He highlights the detrimental effects of a lack of paternal involvement, including increased susceptibility to addiction and poor emotional regulation.

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Call to Action and Future Initiatives

Timestamp: [57:51]

In the concluding segments, Dr. Farrell urges for systemic changes, including legislative support for shared parenting and increased societal recognition of the father's role. He calls on listeners to support his initiatives and promote the establishment of national councils dedicated to addressing the boy crisis.

Dr. Warren Farrell ([67:00]): "The Boy Crisis book is available both in audible and in all the other formats... contact me through my email address at warrenwarrenfarrell.com."

Dr. Farrell also introduces his new book, Role Mate to Soulmate, focusing on enhancing marital relationships to prevent divorce-related boy crises.

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Key Takeaways

• Father Involvement: Critical for boys' emotional and educational success.
• Roughhousing: Essential for developing empathy and discipline.
• Legislative Support: Necessary to fund and promote programs that support father involvement.
• Behavioral Consistency: Enforcing boundaries leads to better behavioral outcomes.
• Community Programs: Initiatives like Boys to Men play a vital role in mentoring young boys.
• Systemic Change: Establishing national councils can coordinate efforts to address the boy crisis comprehensively.

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Notable Quotes

• Dr. Warren Farrell ([06:54]): "The most important single thing is Dad's understanding that children benefit more from Dad's time than Dad's dime."

• Dr. Warren Farrell ([08:15]): "Roughhousing is connected to empathy... children are required to think of their siblings' feelings about being hurt, which begins to create empathy."

• Dr. Warren Farrell ([15:00]): "Postponed gratification is the single biggest predictor of success or failure in life."

• Dr. Warren Farrell ([31:59]): "The most important single thing is dads understanding why their role... children benefit more from dad's time than dad's dime."

• Dr. Warren Farrell ([51:50]): "If your son is unwilling to be involved in those sports, deprive him of things or her of things until they get involved."

• Dr. Warren Farrell ([57:51]): "The Boy Crisis book is available both in audible and in all the other formats... contact me through my email address at warrenwarrenfarrell.com."

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a deep dive into the multifaceted challenges boys face in contemporary America and presents actionable strategies centered on increasing father involvement. Dr. Warren Farrell's insights underscore the necessity of balanced parenting, robust support systems, and societal recognition of the pivotal role fathers play in shaping resilient, empathetic, and successful young men.

For more information on Dr. Farrell’s work and to support initiatives addressing the boy crisis, visit warrenfarrell.com.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Dr. Warren Farrell]

What our fears are to a woman, a woman oftentimes will lose respect for us. If we say it to other men, the men lose respect for us. So where is the incentive to open up and to get in touch with our feelings? The most important single thing is Dad's understanding that children benefit more from Dad's time than Dad's died.

[David Rutherford]

For the past 30 years of my life, I have been dedicated towards trying to understand what aspects of the human condition enable us to succeed or what drives failure. Now, a massive part of my learning, my education has been focused on training young men since I was a SEAL instructor to an instructor at Blackwater, instructor for the CIA, running my own private training motivational company, working with pro athletes, mentoring young dozens of young men in terms of their dreams of either becoming athletes or becoming Special Operations Force members. And I'm here to tell you that in all of that experience, one of the most profound, impactful things that I've ever come across in terms of my research and my understanding of the core problems is through Dr. Farrell in his book the Boy Crisis. This book has been one of the most impactful pieces of literature and pieces of information that I've ever found. And it is a distinct honor for me to have you on today with us, Doc. So God bless you and thank you for coming on.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Well, I have to say it's an honor for me to be with someone who has gone through the incredible trials and tribulations of becoming a Navy SEAL and the dedication that that shows toward the country and, and what you did, what you must have done inside of yourself to overcome barrier after barrier after barrier and something I could never even begin to think about doing. No one to do.

[David Rutherford]

Well, I'll tell you what man, as a fighter from where you've been in your life, whether it was the early powerful feminist movement of the 70s, back when it was in its purest forms, to what you've been doing lately in the multiple books that you have out, and I want to talk about those at the end for sure. But one of the things that really Just kind of pushed me over the edge. Not only was it my buddy Dan at the, the Citizens podcast for sure, who I love dearly, but also it's your, your course on the Peterson Academy. I was, I think I signed up for that, that the academy in the first month it was available and saw your course there and I was just overwhelmed that so many people would have access to your information in that capacity. So, you know, I'm really excited. But, but let's this. So you know, if, if I, I'm pretty sure everybody has, has heard of you that's listening to me right now. So I don't want to, I don't want to spend too much time given your background, but I want to jump right into these key themes and just kind of go down the list. And so we'll start with the crisis of education. And for me, Covid was a particular moment where things exactly got exaggerated on all levels for mental health, but in particular for children. Right. We saw girls, teenage suicide increase by 50%. Now I have four daughters, so a static like that like was shattering to me. And then, you know, we saw all different types of increases in, you know, pharmaceutical applications, doctor's visits, in particular with boys. Boys suicide shot up as well too. So based on that post Covid experience with you, where do we sit in the crisis of education with boys in America?

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

We're in a very serious place. The crisis of education happens especially in among boys who do have minimal or no father presence. But boys that I call dad deprived, we can't say fatherless boys because every boy has a father. But some boys are deprived of involvement of their father. And oftentimes successful men just devoted to their family, they experience what I call the father's catch 22. They learn to love their family by being away from their love of their family and being successful. But it's, but, but what really ends up being of value to boys is not the success of the dad, but rather the involvement of the dad. The taking of the, the, the rough housing every day, the, the teasing. Even though mom may sort of say, you know, what rough housing you, I feel like I have just one more child to monitor. Or the, you know, the teasing like made Jimmy or Jane cry. Why did you do that? You're so insensitive. But you know, it's, it's understanding the value of dad style parenting that leads to boys being so much more able to handle life, to overcome barriers to, to, to know how to, and to know how to empathize and you know, and believe it or not, the rough housing on the part of a parent, 99% of the time, usually it's the father, but it can also be the mother. The rough housing to empathy. So can you imagine a dad saying, you know, sweetie, I want a sweetie, meaning the mom I want. You know, I want a roughhouse with my three kids because, you know, they're going to be really. I'm going to want to increase their empathy. And mom would go, you must be kidding. And you know, how many dads would even know that roughhousing is connected to empathy? But the reason it's connected to empathy is, let's say you have three kids and you have. You say, you put them on the couch and say, okay, you know, your job is to jump on and pin me down before I pin the three of you down. And they get all excited, and mom is looking on and going, oh, my God, what's going to happen here? Somebody's going to get hurt sooner or later. But on the other hand, I don't want to interfere. I don't want to be controlling. And the kids seem to be having fun. I just hope dad will know not to be too rough with him. And, you know, but I just fear that somebody's going to get hurt. And, you know, chances are about 99%. Mom's right. Somebody gets hurt eventually. Not the first time, the second. And, you know, mom goes, oh, my God, I should have interfered. I should have said something. I know. I feel guilty that it didn't say something, but I guess, you know, dad will, you know, now he can see that somebody did get hurt, so it'll. He'll stop. But, you know, the dad says, okay, you know, if you do this again, if you put your elbow into your sister's eye like that, you know, you're going to be. There'll be no more roughhousing. And mom goes, what? You're giving them another chance. You must be crazy. And so. And then, sure enough, Mom's right again. The kids, you know, forget the boundaries, and. And they. Somebody hurts the other one. And. And now dad says everything that's crucial, he says, okay. He doesn't just set the boundary, he enforces the boundary. He said, I gave you that boundary. Now you violated it. Roughhousing over. It's like telling a puppy dog, okay, you did exactly the opposite of what I told you to do. You pooped in the house. And so now there's no treat. And so now is where the change begins to happen. And the next time the rough housing happens and dad says, you know, consider your sister and brother's feelings. Don't, you know, don't put the, don't be too rough. The kids know that they're going to lose the rough housing because they have, they have lost that roughhousing. Last time dad didn't set a boundary, he enforced a boundary. And one of the biggest differences between dads and moms on average, and sometimes this is reversed, is that moms set more boundaries. So they'll set bedtimes, let's say at 8:30, but children supervised by dads will set boundaries a little bit later, like 9 o'. Clock. But the children supervised by dads are more likely to get to bed earlier, not because the boundaries were set earlier, but rather because the boundaries were enforced. The child is more likely to come up to mom and say, you know, oh, Mom, I didn't get my homework done. You don't want me to go into school tomorrow without doing my homework, do you? And mom goes, oh, I did tell you to get off the phone with Jane or Jim, whatever, you know, and you spent an hour and a half on the phone. You should, you could have been doing your homework during that. But you're right, I don't want you to go into school tomorrow without having your homework done. Okay, do your homework. And so the kid learns, aha, I can do both. I can get away with it. Whereas dad is more likely to do say the same thing the first time, but the second time, dad will almost always reinforce the boundary and say, sorry, you're going to have to go in tomorrow to school without doing, doing your homework. That's the consequence that you, that you're paying. Now if mom and dad are divorced or separated, can you imagine, imagine the mom hearing that the child was allowed to go into school without doing the homework, without understanding that that's part of boundary enforcement. And the consequence the kids learns that feels like a dad that's neglectful of the child. And that's one of the reasons that so many moms often feel like I don't want the dad to have father time because she, because no one understands the value of father time.

[David Rutherford]

Wow. That, that, that the, well when, I mean obviously I, I did a little bit of psychology when I was in, in school back in the day. And of course you introduced to behavioralism and you're talking about B.F. skinner and, and, and, and all the, you know, the, those consequences. Right. Pavlov at its origin. And, and you know, I think what are the interesting, because I, I, I went through divorce and There was definitely different types of. Of things taking place at both houses. And. And so it was much more difficult to rein in those consequences when I. Because I travel a lot. I've always traveled a lot. So I'd come home and I was kind of the dad weekend, and the girls would be like, okay, you know, it's fun time with dad. But then it was always that establishment. And one of the things that you. Of those boundaries, one of the things that I love that you integrate with it is really the development of that empathy concept. Right. It's. It's. It's teaching your. Your sons to have a higher emotional intelligence earlier.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

What.

[David Rutherford]

Why do you think that that's good instead of more leaning into teaching your kid to be in our world? We call it the warrior mindset. Right. Why do you believe that it has to be more of a balance between those.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Yes. Well, first. Yes. Let me. I'll just complete one thought there that I realized I left out the empathy. I was saying at the beginning of that roughhousing that dad was saying that I want to teach the children empathy, therefore, I want to do roughhousing. That seems like, so counterintuitive, but what's happening there and the boundaries being enforced is that the children are required in order to continue the roughhousing. They're required to think of their sisters and brothers feelings about being hurt. That begins to create empathy. It also creates postponed gratification. Immediate gratification will be pushing my brother and sister aside to be able to win at the roughhousing. Postponed gratification is I want to push my brother and sister aside to win at the roughhousing, but if I do, I'll lose the roughhousing. So therefore, in order to get what I want, I have to postpone the gratification of pushing my brother and s. In order to get what I really want, which is the continuation of the roughhousing. And postponed ratification is the single biggest predictor of success or failure in life.

[David Rutherford]

And both genders too, right? It's everybody.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Yes, absolutely. And so the females have a tendency to be able to. They're able to sit down longer, they're able to obey rules, they're able to take notes. Guys have to have much more physical activity before they able to focus and concentrate. And getting to that point. I forgot the. The question that you.

[David Rutherford]

Oh, it's all right. It's all right. The idea is, right. I think a lot of. A lot of misconceptions is that, you know, we. If you don't, especially as we've seen the, the, a pretty significant societal demasculization of, of young boys. Right. We've reduced rough house play in school, the punitive damages on kids. Right. And the one that kills me more than I is more than anything is the hyper diag diagnosis of adhd. The implementation of pharmaceuticals, putting these kids on these drugs for long terms, which leads, I mean, the rabbit hole we can go down. That is a whole nother show in and of itself with mass shootings and all that. But the, the critical nature of being able to have that physicality matched by, like you said, that delayed gratification which in and of itself, the emotional intelligence emerges. How does that, that take place or where is it kind of stilted in that next prepubescence and puberty phase? Because I, I've, I've fixated on that group more than any other group. Right. Because if you do have the fatherless boys or however you wanted, you know, less that, what do you call it? You call it that deprivation. Right, Sorry. You know, these kids are. The boundaries are never in place. And so how do you, where do you focus with those things in terms of the emotional intelligence while while sustaining the warrior mindset or warrior ethos, if you will, in that critical prepubescence and puberty phase?

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Yeah, there's so much in that question there. I have a tendency to do that.

[David Rutherford]

Doc, I'm so sorry.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

No, that's great. It's so the first thing here is that.

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[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Where we need to go in the future is to create this balance between heroic intelligence and health intelligence. And heroic intelligence is wonderful up to a point. Meaning that it gives us the opportunity to know how to overcome boundaries, to. To do things that we. That aren't easy for us to do, like you did with every single step of being a Navy seal is just like doubting yourself. Okay, no, I can do it. Then maybe failing here or at a time or two, instead of giving up and saying, I can't do it, having the resilience to come back and try again and to sort of, you know, and rather than hear people constantly around you complaining, that demoralizes you. Having people around you saying, no, I can do it, and focusing on that, that's you. Heroic intelligence. However, it's also important to know that to become a hero, let's say you're in boot camp and the sergeant, let's say you're Jewish and the sergeant is. Makes a comment like, okay, look at, you know, he makes some type of anti Semitic comment and you raise your hand and say, excuse me, Sergeant, sir, but you know, I was real I'm Jewish and I was really offended by that anti Semitic comment. Now the response of the sergeant will be something like, like, oh, isn't that little sweet? Look, we have a little Jewish boy here. Why don't you do 10 push ups, Jewish boy? If you can do a push up. Do you know what a push up is, sweetie?

[David Rutherford]

That's pretty much sounds about right, right there.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Maybe the little sergeant in me, there's.

[David Rutherford]

One in all of us, you know that.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

And so, and so the boy. And so why is the sergeant doing that? That the sergeant is doing that? Because the sergeant knows that the war machine does not operate well with squeaky wheels. And when people complain that your job as being part of that war machine is being willing to die and do everything that you need to do without concern for yourself and your feelings or your fears, but to overcome your fears and to recognize that yes, you will, you have a good chance of dying. And if you don't have a good chance of dying, you'll come maybe back with ptsd. And that is your job. And you know, and if, if somebody, and if you make close friends, it's going to hurt all the more if a really close friend dies in your hands or you, or gets, you know, shot and it is not quite killed and you spend a lot of time rescuing him or her and maybe you'll get killed in the process, but that's exactly what, what your job is. So don't focus on your fears, don't focus on your feelings. Now that is extremely healthy for people who are willing, being trained to die, to train to be disposable. And that was the male role, was to be willing to be disposable. Men were really trained to be the disposable sex, either in war or in work, either. As you know, in all the hazardous jobs, 93% of the people that are killed on hazardous jobs are male males. Think of your construction workers, your long haul truck drivers, your, you know, your people who are logging trees, all of the, well, your welders, those are all male dominated jobs because the males are much more likely to be willing to risk their lives doing those jobs. And so that's, that is useful for doing the jobs that are necessary for survival, for the survival of the nation. We are not being ruled by Nazis because we had millions men all over the world that have died preventing us from having to be ruled by Nazis. And so this is, this is the positive value of that, but it's also the negative value because those men learn to repress their Feelings and, and, and give no thought to themselves. And so when they came home from, if they did manage to survive the process and came home, men are 20 times as likely to die of suicide as they are to die in any given year in a war. And so that is really. And so that means that their emotional intelligence, their willingness to speak up and say, you know, I really was offended by that, or I really am hurt, or, you know, my leg, I think, you know, is, is infected and it could come off and, and say what we feel that has been, that has been neglected. And the result of that is twofold. You mentioned before that you know, that we, that we're oftentimes lonely and we don't have friends and that that loneliness creates mental health problems. And especially during COVID And so this has been. But even outside of COVID if we say what our fears are to a woman, a woman oftentimes will lose respect for us because we're sort of talking about, we fear that a woman will lose respect for us because we're showing vulnerability. She wanted a strong man. If we say it to other men, the men lose respect for us. So where is the incentive to be to open up and to get in touch with our feelings? We men are very bottom line, and we know that if we can't express our feelings in the long run, why even get in touch with them in the short run? Because it's only going to go to some place that's going to frustrate us and we won't be able to do that. So we're not even in touch with our feelings because we know that there's nowhere down the line line than anyone wants to know who we are. So we spent the last half a century focusing on women and women's problems without admit. Women don't think that we have problems. They think that we're filled with power and we're, you know, we're the male patriarchy and things like that, because we haven't said anything and women can't hear what men don't say.

[David Rutherford]

That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I, you know, as I, as I think about what you're saying, because, I mean, I've not, I've lost last count. I think it's. Sixteen of my friends have committed suicide in the last seven years alone, you know, or I'm averaging about four or five a year. And a lot of that is. Well, you know, we have a concept. It's, you know, a little bit more than, than ptsd. It's called Operator Syndrome. And it's a unique constellation about 17 different medical, mental health things. And one of those in the mental health side is this existential shortfall, right? You get engaged in that deeper level purpose and then when you come back to re. Engage and the more mundane or, you know, I don't, I think mundane always has almost a negative connotation, right? The, the, the, the application of, of skill sets every day that make your life function, that take care of your family or you know, to take care of yourself. I think that you, you lose that, that the, the desire isn't as much as it was when you're at the higher level. And so I, I see with young men what I always try and do is I try and you know, put them in a physical environment, break them down physically to create the space to where, hey, let's have the discussion of why the motivation is coming up short. Why are you not, what, what right now do you want to push yourself? Why, what type is there something fatalistic that it's not going to have no relevance long term. You don't have the, all those things that you, you had talked about that definitely went through my brain and training with the, with young men right now. Where are you seeing specific types of programs that are positively impacting young men that are, that are teaching them these variables from the emotional intelligence, right. To the, that sense of relieving the economic presupposed pressure of you're only the breadwinner, you're only this. And then you know, also you know the consequences of society. I love that idea. The consequences of society. I think what, what programs are really working well in your opinion that exists right now?

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

I think the most important single thing that's been done is in Florida there was the speaker of the House there did read the boy crisis and use them with his kids. And when he found that it worked well, he and his wife were together, they were married, they had three or four kids and it worked well there. They gave the boy crisis to the head of the Republican head and the Democratic head of the family committees within the Florida legislature and they ended up passing a bill contributing $70 million hours of funds to help mothers understand the value of fathers and fathers understand their own value. All the things that I mentioned before about the roughhousing and in the boy crisis book, there's just a whole list of things that, that dads tend to do, like teasing, like taking kids camping, like letting kids get lost, but not so lost that they can't find the way back. Ultimately, ultimately.

[David Rutherford]

But that was my job as an instructor in the SEAL teams. I let them get lost and.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Wow. Yeah. And tell me about that. What was the, the.

[David Rutherford]

Well, I mean, it's, it's the consequence. And I think, you know, the, the, you know what I found raising four daughters is that the, the, the, the adaptation of the consequence into the behavioral shift happens so much more rapidly than any other of the young men I've mentored in my life. It's a, it's a much more subtle process with them, but they require deeper level consequences.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Yeah.

[David Rutherford]

So in our, our training, you know, the consequence is death in our world. So we have, you know, these wide spectrums of allowing them to fail and that failure. So failure in my mind and in my world and kind of how I teach it, failure is this. I call it the positive application of pain. Right. And I get the shift in perception of what pain actually is and that we need those pain points, we need those consequences to reverberate in that emotional state. Right. Yes, I'm afraid. But it's also commingled with the idea of courage. Right. And so you have courage that draws the motivation. You go out, you fail, you learn, learn profound lessons, then come back. And then if, if you have the right role model, the right teacher, the right influence, they'll help you adapt that, that, the intensity, that con. On that intensity of that consequence to shift your change in behavior more rapidly.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Yes.

[David Rutherford]

And so I think for boys, they have a much more intense need for the heavier consequence that, that pain versus girls. They learn, they adapt much quicker.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Yeah, that's probably quite true. And, and, and that's. And it's really. So for a parent imagining this, let's say here's. Here might be a typical scenario, a child comes up to a mom and says, you know, mom, I'm going to climb the tree in the backyard. And mom goes, well, sweetie, maybe in a few years. Okay. But you know, don't. You can't do that now. It's. The tree is too tall and there's new branches and you could, the branches could break and it's much too dangerous. So the child goes up to the dad and says, dad, can I climb the tree? And not telling her, not, not telling dad what mom said. And dad says, well, it's a big tree, so be careful, sweetie. But yeah, yeah, okay. And so then the kid climbs the tree and mom looks out the window and says, wait a minute, I told you you couldn't climb the tree. Well, dad said I could. And so, you know, and so what's happening there and what is needed. And so we have a really good example of the difference between mom style parenting and dad style parenting. And the, and the ideal is to have what I would call checks and balance parenting. And so, so the, the connection there needs to be something like this type of dialogue. You know, I told Jane she couldn't climb the tree because it's, you know, too tall. And you just let her go ahead and do that. Well, that. And dad says what dads don't say because dads don't know these things. And as I said before, moms can't hear. What dads don't say is that when, when kids take a risk like that, they actually learn to balance what is a safe risk versus what is not safe risk and to draw the line there. And then your neurons begin to connect in ways that they're not needed to connect. Otherwise you actually increase your intelligence. Intelligence. And that's, you know, that's study based. That's the data for that is in the boy crisis. And so you. And so, but so dad has to first inform himself of what is the actual value that is proven in dad style parenting and then kindly share that with the mom while mom shares what the value of mom style parenting is like. I want to prevent our daughter or son from getting killed by going up too high and falling too far or, and they're not old enough to make those decisions yet. And so what might be a good compromise there, mom might say some version of okay, Jimmy or Jane can climb that tree, but you need to be under that tree so that in case they do fall, you can cushion the fall. So when there's a risk that could end up being life or death or severe concussion risk, then err in the direction of being safe. But on the other hand, you want to have the ability to take risks and to know how to avoid failure in that deeper way and increase the intelligence toward that end. So mom might say, you need to be under the tree. And by the way, give me your cell phone while you're under that tree. And then you have the child getting the best of both worlds world. They have a chance to sort of take risks, increase their intelligence, understand where that fine line is between too much of a risk and not generating new brain cells that help you know where and when to take a risk. And so those are, you know, that's just an example of, you know, of how dads and moms really need to understand the value of each child's parenting. But a lot of what Dads do looks like it is dangerous or bad idea, a bad idea to the mom who, who isn't informed this way. So from the mother's perspective, you know, the dad that lets the child take too much of a risk is just not caring about the kid. And so, and, and that's why dads need to really inform themselves as to what the value of, of that is. And like what they did in Florida is, is they develop programs that inform dads about their value and inform moms about dad's value. And dad involvement is actually a woman's issue. Every woman I dated between. I was married for quite a while and then divorced for a while. And then 30 years ago, I met the woman who became my wife and is my wife. And, and in between the. Almost all the women I dated were single mom moms. And every single single mom used the word overwhelmed. And, and she was also disappointed in herself. She felt that there was, you know, that, that if she, she didn't do her job with children well enough and she didn't do her job and at work well enough and just sort of felt like disappointed in herself. And she was constantly in a lifelong juggling act, but her number one word was overwhelmed. Well, why should moms have to be overwhelmed? Overwhelmed moms should be inviting dads in to share that the joys and the burdens of raising children, even if they're divorced. And so the, and so this is part of what Florida was doing, and this is part of what, you know, that I'm working to, to create a White House Council on Boys and Men. We're putting out a lot of messages to the Trump administration that there needs to be a White House council in the family with sections for boys and men in sections for women and girls. And this is what needs to happen now. That's big programs on the level of small programs. There's programs like Mark Schollinger's Young Men's Ultimate Weekend in California. There's programs like Boys to Men. There are things called the sheds in many countries where men get together and they talk about their future feelings and their fears and their, and their strengths. And so all these types of things are needed. And there's, there's so much. There's a fair amount that's going on, but there's not nearly enough that's going on. Many Christian schools and Christian efforts are being made to, to work with boys to help them become stronger young men. And so all of these things together are needed. But the most important single thing is dads understanding why their role Once the family earns about $50,000 to $70,000 a year, the Harvard longitudinal studies show that the children benefit more from dad's time than dad's dime. The first 50 to 70,000, depending on where you're looking. Living in the United States is needed for survival, but after that, the the time with the father is more valuable than the the money that the father makes.

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[David Rutherford]

What I want to just talk to you a little bit about is our our new Embrace Fear curriculum that's available on davidrutherford.com it's a part of the Frog Logic Institute, which is going to be an emerging group of of of core products or or core curriculum that I've been working on over the past 30 years. The first in line is is learning to embrace your fear. Fear is the number one emotion that impedes us you when from achieving anything that we truly want to put our minds to right? It's that emotion that's wired in you've been taught it your whole life. It's that that that one thing that you really have to get. Ahold of now here's the deal. It's there's no such thing as fearless. So please go to davidrutherford.com check out go to courses and sign up for your Embrace Fear curriculum. This is a five week or five month course. I recommend it doing it over the course of five months. And this course is designed not only to help your fear, to accept your fear, to begin to retrain your brain with the fear, to test your fear every day, and then ultimately to live with courage and to deal with your fear as a motivational component to go help you achieve your purpose in life. So don't waste time. Go to davidrutherford.com and check out our Embrace Fear curriculum. Thank you. One of my favorite aspects of like your TED talk and I bust a watch at four times, there's so much great information was that when you did get remarried, you spent that first five years, you know, just being with your son and you know, and spent really leaning in as that father figure, you know. But I do recognize there's, that's not always the case. And we have a pretty high percentage of, of single mothers out there raising boys. And as a result we see the increase in connectivity, right? We see it through video. And then the one that really is the most disturbing for me and what I'm, I don't, you know, I'm trying to find the science on it, but the, the, the impact of access to pornography at an early age with young men decreasing their competency and intimacy, which makes them, you know, less attractive to want to have good, more meaningful relationships at younger ages. And it's just the hookup culture and that whole thing. Where do you see solutions in those problems? Like what can a single mother do to address a hyper connective kid? And whether it's too many video games, too much pornography, or just, you know, just messing around on social media, which is all, you know, has a catastrophic effect on that neurological component as well too. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on those things.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Number one one is get the biological dad involved. If you say, well the biological dad doesn't want to be involved, he's irresponsible. Take a look at all the contributions that a biological dad makes that we don't, we have no clue of why the biological dad is important. Even before the child is born, spend time learning in the dad brain. There's a whole series of neurons that don't connect until the dad begins to perceive that his role with the newborn baby is to be involved with that newborn baby. That role begins in those, those, those new neurons that are, that might be called the, you know, the, instead of the motherhood instinct, the fatherhood instinct, they don't connect if the father only perceives that his value is earning money, but if he perceives that his value is being with the child and doing the things like the boundary and for enforcement, things like teasing, things like letting the child have, take risks but that are short of life, death risks, teaching that child emotional intelligence, dad style, all those things are so necessary. And when a father knows that he's needed, as you know, men who are told they are needed, like during World War II or any important war, we will be willing to kill and be killed. And it's as dangerous, it's as traumatized, it's extremely traumatizing for a man to, to kill as well as it is to be killed, obviously. And so that's so men, when men know they're needed, they're willing to kill or be killed. But when they're told that they're needed to love, it's a lot easier to love and be loved than it is to kill and be killed. And so we, so we when, so when a moment says, you know, I didn't realize there was value to your roughhousing. I didn't realize there was rally to your teasing. I didn't realize there was value to what you, to the things you do, even though that you couldn't express what those values were. I now understand what that is. You're needed now. And even when I was, I ran for governor of California and I spoke to prison populations and about 90% of the prisoners were dad deprived prison men, males. And when I told them of the importance of fathers, many of those men, tattoos and muscles like I'll never have, you know, would come up to me and say, Dr. Farrell, can I tell you that I never thought I was of any use to anybody in my life and therefore I might as well stay in prison. But now I want to do everything that I can to get out of prison as soon as possible so I can prevent my children from becoming the type of, of person I became, making the type of mistakes I, I, I made. And so, so the first thing is try to get the biological data involved. If there's no option for that, the dad is dead, then I ask you to get involved, get a stepdad involved. But most stepdads are reduced to the position of advisor. So learn in the Boy Crisis book how to create a real equal relationship with the stepdad and stepdads. Almost always love you. And they really want to care deeply for the children, but they can't care for the children if they're told that all their suggestions are secondary to your ideas. They have to be equal partners and you have to learn from them as well as them learning from you. And so that's step number two. Step number three is making sure that if, if there's no possibility of a stepdad and there's no possibility of the biological dad, is making sure that you connect with the school and learn who makes sure the boy is involved in.

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[Dr. Warren Farrell]

You, I'm sorry, Make sure that you do the boundary enforcement, not the boundary setting, but the boundary enforcement that the dad doesn't do. And then contact the school and make sure that the boy is involved in at least two or three of the three types of sports that are so important. What I call the liberal arts of sports and the liberal arts of sports are pick up team sports, organized team sports, and sports where you focus on largely your own competence, like in tennis or gymnastics, that contribute to the team. And so all three of those sports develop different skills sets that I discuss in the boy Crisis book that you need to have your son be involved in. If your son is unwilling to be involved in those sports, deprive him of things or her of things. Until they get involved in sports, you have the control. So often when, when moms are talking, they, they say some version of, you know, well, I can't prevent my children from bringing electric electronics to the table. They just, they just do it. And the answer is you can prevent the children from doing that. You just take the electronics from them. You don't resubscribe to their, to their, to their subscriptions. They're, you know, they're, they have their door closed and they're, and they are looking at porn on the computer. Keep the door open. They, they insist on closing the door, take the computer out of the, out of the room and put it into the living room until they, they learn to do those things and have the courage to be disliked by your children who will in the long run deeply, deeply appreciate the, the, the, the discipline that they have gotten that has not led them to be, to go down the road. By the time they're addicted to porn or video games, that's down the line. You haven't done the work work of making, making it clear that there's no option but for them to do their homework, to do the chores. They can't manipulate their way out of it. Children that learn to be able to Manipulate their way out of it because you've set boundaries but haven't enforced them. Lose respect for you. Wow. And the deeper, the deepest price is them not just losing respect for you, but them not having the discipline discipline to be able to do the things that are necessary for their own growth and postpone gratification.

[David Rutherford]

That's fantastic. That's absolutely phenomenal advice right there. I just, you know, I, I see so many times my friends that have been gone and years and years of deployments, and the greatest thing that they, they're challenged with, with is, is they always say the same, like, they're like, hey, R, man, I'm. I'm. Now that I'm out, I have to get to know my children again. I, I'm reintroducing myself into their lives and understand what they're doing, you know, and that's a, A challenging thing for men that have been entrenched in that sacrificial space. And, But I, I guess, you know what, what I hear in you discuss a lot is, you know, that's that pre program then that comes from however you were raised. Like, I'm just the bread earner. I be the sacrifice. I got to be the sacrificial lamb, if you will, to come and reintroduce the mindset as. No, the greatest place I'm going to be fulfilled is the time I spend with my children, my legacy and, and teach them as they emerge, you know, and, and, and, and help shape them absolutely there.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

If, if we ever do get to be able to create the White House Council on Boys and Men, one of the first things that needs to happen, happen is to work to make sure that every veteran when he comes or she comes back home, that there's, that there's important communication training about both the mother and the father being able to understand what the other one's life is like and how to integrate those two lives together. Because oftentimes it's the man that's at the very veteran and he comes home and the woman has her whole structure set up. She has the things that are her routine. And from her perspective, the dad's ideas are all criticisms of her. And you know, she got along well enough. She did. You know, she did what she did. And the kids are the way they are, and so let them be and stop trying to make them into something different. Whereas he's, Whereas from his perspective, I finished one mission that where I was willing to do.

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[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Now I have a new mission. And that mission is to be a good Father a good husband. And I want to. I want to have something to contribute. And in fact, he has a huge amount to contribute that's of potential to contribute. And now it's. And. But those two, Those two different worlds need to be integrated. And time, it takes time, time and training to know how the man and the woman can hear each other's perspective or if it's two women or two men in a, you know, gay situation. They need to hear each other's perspective. It's on. On how that integration can be made so that both the mother, the person taking care of the children can have her. Her or his job much more, much more reduced. And she challenge and that the person coming in has something to offer because they do have something to offer. It's not just a matter of making that person feel useful. They can be very useful or else the whole relationship will fall apart. The children will be raised without their dad. They will not know the value of their dad. And the children's chance of doing well in life is extremely reduced.

[David Rutherford]

As you were talking about this, that integration and that positive integration, one of the things that I've seen happen, happen quite a bit. And it's not just within the veteran community. I think it's with, you know, whatever constitutes in quotations, deadbeat dads. Right. The legal system has now, you know, really contorted itself to go after and kind of punish those dads in particular cases. And we see these really intense, aggressive judges in different areas that. That will implement these kind of draconian challenges to fathers reintegrating with their dads. Why do you think that's taken place? And how do. What can we do within from a, you know, a system like, you know, Florida passed that law, gave 75 million. What can we see within the judiciary system to begin to support those dads and getting back integrated with those children do. And why is it so important?

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

This is an extremely important question. And answer the. Yeah. By the way, in Florida, there were three bills passed. One was that $75 million that I mentioned that passed the House in Florida by the vote of every. The unanimous vote of every single Republican and every single Democrat. And this, you know, in this day and age, in finding that type of.

[David Rutherford]

Agreement, that's a miracle.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

It is a miracle, yes. Second, another bill that was passed by Florida was equal shared parenting. And that's been a very hard. That's. That that is required as the. The predominant. The go. The go to starting place. Short of any parent being abusive or, you know, alcoholic in some type of way. So that's what needs to happen. In every, every state. There are about four or five states that, that have that now, but most states do not. A number of states are moving toward that. Now you ask the question, why is there just not the assumption of equal shared parenting everywhere? It's because we grew up thinking that, you know, that moms were so much more important than dads. It wasn't until about 50 years ago. Well, and the beginning of understanding something different differently was the Moynihan Report in 1965. And the Moynihan report found that when they first started doing the Moynihan report, there was the fear that they would be blaming the black community, black people, for, for being really bad people or not having effectiveness with their children. But what the Moynihan report found in studying inner city violence is that the violence happened almost again exclusively among that 25% of black families in which there was a minimal or no dad involvement. There were, that is, they were all dead. The great majority of children that were into problem situations that had committed crime, that was, that were dealing with joining gangs that were dealing drugs, those were dad deprived children. So it was not blacks or negroes as they called them at the time that were the problem. It was the dad deprivation. Now remember I said there was 25% at that time of children were brought up in dad deprived homes. Today in the black community it is 72% and in the Caucasian community it is 32%, which is 7% higher than the 25% at which was in the black community in 1965. And it's in that group of people, the dad deprived group of people, that, that the, the problems tend to occur. So in the old days, we just assumed that if there's a separation, it should be the, the mother that takes care of the children. In the very old days, in the 19, in the 1800s, the children stayed with the father and nothing the mother. But then, then for a long period of history, the children were assumed to be better off with the mother. And in fact, we find that the children, children do best off in, in the boy crisis. But I did the research for the boy crisis book. I ended up with four must dos after divorce. In case somebody's listening to this, the first must do is approximately an equal amount of time spent with the children by both the dad and the mom. Number two, that the children are not able to detect any badmouthing from mom to dad or dad to mom. When children, let's say a boy is hearing that his father is irresponsible, a liar and a narcissist. Well, that boy looks in the mirror and he notices that my, my, my nose and my hair and my body language is a lot like my dad. Well, if I'm being told that my dad is a narcissist and irresponsible and a liar, well I have lies and I am looking in the mirror now and, and so maybe I'm that way also. So when you, when you badmouth the other parent, you are badmouthing that half of the child that is biologically the other parent. It is child abuse to badmouth the other parent. And so the second must do is no badmouthing that the child can either hear or detect. So if you said I had a great time at mom's house last night and you're the dad and you go okay, so what else did you do? And you just, and the child gets the, the, the get, gets the cue pretty quickly that no positive attention is coming to me if I talk about things that I liked about my mom. And so that, that's another form of pain badmouthing. Third the third must do after divorce in case of divorce is that there's, is that the mother and father live within about a 20 minute drive time from each other. And the reason for that is if they, if you, if it's further than that then there's a, then oftentimes the child feels like it has to give up the soccer practice or it has to give up going to its, its friends recital not recital, you know, friend's birthday party. And so, and therefore there's resentment in going to the other parents house. And the fourth must do is that the, the parents be involved at least once a month in couples counseling so that, so that they can learn to hear the other partners perspective on, on things.

[David Rutherford]

Wow, that's, that's wonderful. That's exactly what I was looking for for Doc. I, I, I can't thank you enough. Before we finish, can you talk about your new book what's going on where people can find you and, and, and, and then how they can they support you trying to get President Trump to initiate this, this initiative in the White House?

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Yes. On the initiative of the White House. If you know some, someone who is connected with the White House, that is a really good start to, to, to contact me. My contact information is on my website. Warren ferrell.com www.warrenfarrell.com the Warren is like Warren Buffett but without the money.

[David Rutherford]

Well, your, your wisdom's invaluable sir.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

Thank you. And then, then the Farrell is F A R R E L L. Some people do like Will Ferrell. I'm not that funny. And so just it's f a R-R-E-L l.com and there is. And then contact me through my, my email address, which is warrenwarrenfarrell.com and let me know about that. But the, the Boy Crisis book is available both in audible and in, and, you know, in, in all the other formats. And the most recent book that you asked about was the book a book called Role Mate to Soulmate. And the Role Mate to Soulmate is focused on how to be able to hear personal criticism without becoming defensive. And seven other major problems that couples tend to get into that lead to the divorces that lead to the Boy crisis. And so this is sort of stopping the Boy crisis at its root cause. But it's also learning to keep marriages together. In my opinion, the best work and most important work that I do is the work enrollment to Soulmate because I've seen more marriages kept together and more relationships kept together as a result of learning those skill sets, all of which are biologically unnatural to learn.

[David Rutherford]

Doc, you, you just keep helping man talk about service and talk about that sense of delayed gratification and that sense of sacrifice for others. And you're the epitome of that representation. It's been a incredible honor to have you on my show and I wish you all the best and good luck with what you're doing and I will keep handing that book out, I promise.

[Dr. Warren Farrell]

And I really feel honored to be on the show with somebody who's, who's lived life like you've lived and raised three daughters and really contributed to the country and overcome barriers that I can't even begin to imagine myself overcoming. So thank you, David. God bless you.

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[Podcast Host]

This is an I Heart podcast.