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- [00:00]
A
If you are a chief marketing officer in consumer products, I want you to think about something for a moment. You have creative that works. You have campaigns that capture attention. But somewhere between that moment and the register, the signal gets lost. You cannot see what actually drove the sale. You are making optimization decisions on inference, not truth. Well, that changed in February. Infilion acquired Catalina. Four decades of deterministic purchase intelligence. 130 million US households, 70 retail banners, $600 billion in verified ANN consumer spending. And here is what really matters. Over 90% of consumable purchases still happen in store. Infilion and Catalina together can close the loop from digital advertising to inlane purchase and incentivize the next one. This is not a measurement tool you consult after the campaign. This is a live signal that runs through your media while the campaign is in flight. You can now optimize from attention to action in real time against people whose actual purchase behavior you know. A consumer products brand needs return on ad spending. It needs foot traffic. Infilion now delivers all of it, not as separate vendors. You reconcile later as one connected platform. That is what closing the gap looks like. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. What's the first brand you remember making an impact on you as a young girl in a creative way?
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B
It was definitely in the toy space. I was saying Mattel Barbie. Like, those are the biggest things because I have a sister and we would ask for gifts like that connected to each other. So, like, we'd be making the whole home and pool and car and. Yeah, those would be.
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A
We hear Barbie a lot on this show.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Hi, I'm Jim Stengel. I've helped hundreds of major brands discover and activate their purpose. Because when a brand's purpose is clear, compelling and authentic, profit naturally follows. Each week, I welcome the CMOs, the chief marketing officers of your favorite brands, to speak to how their job is so much more than marketing. These leaders share their inspiration and challenges along with how they try to build a full, healthy and happy life in and out of the office. And it's that energy that reaches everyone they touch. And we're glad you're here to feel that energy and to learn from these remarkable leaders. So here we go. Some marketing ideas capture attention for a moment. The very Best ones help shape culture. And that, you could say, is priceless. For more than 25 years, Mastercard's iconic Priceless campaign has been one of the most enduring and celebrated brand platforms in marketing history. Today, MasterCard connects consumers, financial institutions, merchants, governments, and businesses in more than 200 countries and territories. The company processes billions of transactions each year and generates more than $28 billion in annual revenue. My guest today is the newest leader helping shape the next chapter of that remarkable brand. Jill Kramer is Chief Marketing and Communications Officer at mastercard, where she leads the company's global brand and communication strategy and serves on the executive leadership team and management committee. Jill has only been in her role for about six months. Before joining mastercard, Jill spent nearly a decade as Chief Marketing and Communications Officer at Accenture, leading one of the world's largest integrated marketing organizations and spearheading the company's let there be change brand platform. Earlier in her career, she had senior leadership roles at BBDO and DDB, working with companies like AT&T and ExxonMobil. Recorded live at the Cannes Lion International Festival of Creativity. Here's my conversation with the cmo. Who knows great brands are built with careful intention. Here's Jill. Jill, welcome to the CMO Podcast. Finally. Now, you just arrived.
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B
Yes.
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A
But I have to ask you, you've been in Cannes before? Yep. Is the food better in Cannes or in the MasterCard cafeteria?
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B
Okay, okay. I am. I am going to Talk about the MasterCard cafeteria all day long.
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A
I somehow knew you would.
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B
It is just. It is no joke. And I love it there. And I go there every single day. I'm at work. I go up there. And it's funny because I have this woman who works with me. Her name is Susan. And I'll say, susan, let's go up and grab a salad. And she refuses to go with me because I talk to too many people. It's the social.
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A
Well, you go for the social or the food? Both. Both. Yeah.
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B
And really good cookies.
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A
Oh, that can be dangerous.
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B
Yeah, true.
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A
Yeah. My first assignment at P and G was on a new cookie brand that we were bringing to market. It failed, but the cookies were really good. I, like. I was only 28. I gained 20 pounds in my first
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B
year at P and G. Well, you know, my first.
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A
They were there all day.
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B
My first week, I did partake of the cookies, and I realized right then and there, it needs to be.
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A
You needed some discipline.
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B
So I have yet to. I have yet to actually purchase a cookie for myself in the MasterCard cafeteria since week one.
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A
My advice is cut them into quarters.
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B
Yeah. Except I'll, I, it doesn't work for me. Good advice. If I, if I could abide by that.
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A
Now I understand you also have gotten lost in the headquarters.
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B
I still, still cannot figure out one and like I have one path that now I've done variations on that path. But our head of communications, Jen Erickson, getting to her office is still a bit of a mystery. So I get a lot of steps in. Maybe I could have the cookie considering the number of steps. I get it.
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A
By the way. I know Jen.
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B
Yeah.
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A
She's work for me.
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B
I will.
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A
Yeah. Now, I've been following your travel since you started a MasterCard about six months ago. Right. And you have been on the go.
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B
Yes.
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A
I mean you've been everywhere. It's fun to follow you. So for our audience, follow Jill. The pictures are great and actually the stories are great. Now I know that's intentional. So my question for you is, how did you decide how you wanted to onboard?
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B
Well, that's a really good question. When I first came in, you know, MasterCard sponsors a lot of things.
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A
They sure do.
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B
And everyone was like, here's your travel schedule. And I was like, that can't be my travel schedule. I have so much to learn. So actually for the first 30 days I was very purchase headquartered and it was, it was December, it was the end of the year. I did a lot of learning and then I started to hit the road. So I was, I would, I, my criteria was I would love to see a MasterCard sponsorship property in action, but also to spend time with MasterCard's customers because MasterCard's brand is really built through those partnerships with fintechs and issuers, et cetera. So I really wanted to be able that I could see and appreciate the team's work because they are best in class. But I also wanted to make sure that I could meet with other business partners and see customers. So that formula has worked so far. And I come back with all the different parts of my brain fired up, which is with a flight home and the notes that I write is probably already overwhelming to many, but it's been a good formula.
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A
Now how do you process that all? So I've been in your shoes. You know, do you have a hack or a habit?
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B
I do think that you learn things when you come up through the agency system, that if you're switching accounts, if you're working on a new business pitch, you have to accelerate very quickly. Then when you add Accenture on top of that, you have to know a variety of different industries. At any point in time, I could be talking with a client or a CMO from any one of our many, many customers. And you have to be able to learn very quickly. But my habit is that I. I actually write down my first instinct, like, first reaction hypotheses. Um, I used to do it in a notebook, and now I do it in an iPad. And I still have it. It's my first reaction page. And I write down everything, and I just let my brain know that those are recorded somewhere. And I give myself about six weeks, and I go back and I say which of those things were spot on and which were just a result of a lack of information. And that starts to kind of form my plan for where I go from there.
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A
Wow. I saw you also did a town hall with Raja.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And the two of you together. It's, by the way, a good idea. I'm. I'm surprised more people don't do that. But I just want to ask you. I mean, he's been. He was in the job, what, 13 years?
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B
12 years, I think. Yeah.
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A
So what kind of things did you talk about? What was the vibe in the room? What was that experience like?
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B
You know, I think that when. When Raja and I first met, we had, like, this connection as humans. First things we appreciated, things that. That brought us joy. Um, as I onboarded, we also realized where we would be different. And he said something to me. Cause I started onboarding with him in the time between Accenture and MasterCard. And he said to me, I think you and I couldn't be more different. And that's exactly right. It's right for the company, and it's right for the team. So don't worry. Embrace that.
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A
Oh, good for him.
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B
And so that was a very kind and generous thing to do. And so we really did talk about that with the team. When we did that town hall, we celebrated, of course, everything Raja had accomplished. And we gave people permission to celebrate where they'd come together, but also permission to think differently. And I think you find different types of people. Some were ready to come forward right away with ideas, and others, you know, there was the grieving process a little bit, but we always did it this way when you talk about doing it a different way. So we just gave people permission to feel all those feelings and celebrate and then move forward.
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A
Yeah, it's a very interesting and challenging thing to follow someone who's had such a deep imprint on the company. And the biggest thing I have found is the organization's reading you and they're looking for small signals. You know, what does she like? What's going to be different? What's going to be her imprint? So how do you handle that?
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B
Well, it's funny, one of the funny things about interviewing for this job, as I met people in MasterCard, I had a really busy role prior to this, so I didn't have time to, you know, prepare other than to really speak about my beliefs, my philosophies, the way I handle situations. So I, I had a high level of confidence that I was getting the job for the right reasons. But then you do have that worry that, like, couldn't I have gone someplace where the bar was a little lower? That would have been a smarter move maybe. And then you have the piece of Raja acknowledging that we are very different human beings and that was the right thing. But what we did do as a leadership team was we actually went away together. And when you, when you work in a multi matrix company, different marketing divisions, there's all the different ways people report and are funded. And you could organize one way, you can organize another way, but we just came together saying, we're going to forget all of that. We're all here to help mastercard grow and to help the world really know who mastercard is. So we did, we did exercises to get to know each other better. But part of what we worked on was what were we going to give ourselves permission to leave behind?
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A
That's a good question.
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B
The biggest thing was that I left the room for 90 minutes and the team talked about me without me there. What did they know about me already? What did they still need to know? What did they really appreciate that I was doing for them and what did they need me to do that I might not have been doing yet? And I remember when I left the room, I called my husband and he's like, well, that's gotta feel so weird. I'm like, yeah. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I agreed to this, but it was the best thing that ever happened because then they come out and they synthesize for you. What did you learn? And the best thing you could do for yourself as a leader, a new leader, but I think as a leader is check yourself.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Am I actually conveying the messages I intend to? Am I giving the signals that I intend to give? A lot of us want to create that emotional safety for creativity and ideation and, you know, just growth from your team. And you may think you are and you're not. And the only Way to find it out is to actually look at it. So it was the first time in my career I'd ever done that and I loved it.
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A
What'd you learn about yourself?
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B
I learned about myself. I think people knew that I was very accessible, deeply caring. They knew that I learned a lot and quickly. So don't not to be freaked out by the, by the questions I ask. I have learned that about myself. I tell people that I'm not asking questions to challenge, I'm asking questions to understand. And then what I also, what I did learn about myself is that even though I know or I thought that I was clear that when I was saying what if we did something differently than the past, that I was trying to always start that out with this work is amazing. I'm not questioning the validity of what has been done. I do have some questions. What if we were starting from scratch today? What would we do? And I realized I needed to say that maybe 10 times more than I thought I needed to say it so that people could really heal. Hear that and trust it. And then the last part is that trust is earned. Right. We all know that. But when you're actually living it and you're at a big brand and you want to do things and you want to move quickly, but you don't have that trust yet. And you, you can't possibly have that trust yet that you have to over index in certain things until you have it.
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A
Yeah. I went to an acquisition when I was a P and G, one of the first P and G people to go to the acquisition, the acquired company. There was a lack of trust, of course. And one thing I did which was very profound, I didn't realize it at the time, I just said, listen, I don't know your category, I don't know your history, I don't know what's worked. I don't know the story of your company over the last several decades. Can we just reserve a day and you all tell me and show me the story of the company when we're at our best, what campaigns or initiatives really rocked. And so that was so fun and so interesting and to see where they were not on the same page, but it was a data based look at the company. So it gave us a bit of a common language.
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B
I love that.
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A
So, yeah. So it's those kind of things which you just, which you did are so powerful.
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B
Yeah. Spending time letting people teach you.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But to your point, and you and I were just talking before we began here, like I'm now six and a half months in and I'm going to start planning for the next year. So giving yourself permission to do that again. And I love that example you just gave. Like, let's have a little bit of a shared, shared look back together and learn again before we start planning the next year.
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A
Now, how was the job you're at Accenture? 10 years.
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B
I didn't quite hit 10 years.
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A
I came close, almost 10 years. How is this role the same or similar and how is it most different?
- [14:54]
B
The same in that I've had the privilege of working for CEOs both times who had direct contact. Like they valued the conversation. They did not, you know, push that off to the side. I think what's different, and it was the reason I went to MasterCard is that from MasterCard, the brand is beloved by everyone and everyone protects it. And therefore I've never experienced a company where they so truly listen to what would be good for the brand. They know what might be good for their area of the business, but they also listen to our expertise and craft skills around the how, the what and the when. So I really loved that brand. Was never something you had to ask to talk about at MasterCard. That it was. It was always front and center. And that's just because they're two different business models, right?
- [15:57]
A
I spent years at Procter and Gamble trying to answer that question. We had the creative, we had the reach, we had campaigns that genuinely stop people. And then we watched that value quietly disappear somewhere between the moment of engagement and the proof of a business result. That gap between attention and action is where most media budgets go to die. And most digital media platforms have been content to live inside it, just a little upstream from accountability. Infilion is the company that decided to close it. They started as the original attention company built on the idea that it could consumer choosing to engage with an ad is worth more than one who ignores it. But they did not stop there. They have built the infrastructure to connect the moment of attention to the proof of action across every screen, every format, every vertical. That is not a feature. That is a fundamentally different idea of what an ad platform should be. And it is the one brands have been waiting for. Learn more in the show Notes this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Did you imagine when you went to Accenture you'd be there almost 10 years?
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B
No, in fact, I, I, I left BBDO to go to Accenture. I had a moment.
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A
That's a change, actually.
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B
Yep. Right.
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A
That's a big change.
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B
And I was walking from the BBDO offices to the Metro north to Grand Central. I had a panic moment. And at the time, Troy Rohanan, who used to be my boss at bbdo, was, was working at tbwa. And I texted him and asked if we could chat. And I went up to his office and I said, I'm kind of panicking. Like, I don't know if I should have done this. I was a week away from starting the new job. And he said, you'll never regret it. It's like, what's the. A year from now, you could do whatever you want, but you will learn a lot by going there, and you'll become better at everything you do by sitting on the other side of the table. So I was saying, could I make it a year? And I ended up being there for nine years. And also a testament to Roxanne Taylor and then Amy Fuller, the people that I worked with there. Roxanne moved my job around more in my first year and a half then I'd ever had that type of acceleration. So I owe a lot to her and I learned a ton. And then when Julie did give me the privilege of being the cmco there, I mean, it was. There's no, there's, there's no better learning environment because you go across every industry and every technology and you just learn a lot. You work really hard, but you learn a lot.
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A
So it's a lesson for our audience. I mean, everyone gets a panic before they start a new job. You always had those second thoughts.
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B
It's because you have to ask yourself. And I panicked before this job too. You have to ask yourself, is it just, is it, is it fear of the unknown? Is it fear of failure? And nine times out of 10, it is. And everybody does. That's the only way to growth. Unfortunately, it's uncomfortable, but it's the only way to growth. And I talk to the team about it all the time. When we're doing things differently and their every instinct is, but we're already good. Let's just do it this way. It's like we're in the messy middle. This is gonna be uncomfortable. Let's see what works and let's see what doesn't. But, you know, change is taking place if you feel that and there's nothing Better than the feeling that happens on the other side where I now know people I didn't know before. I know topics I didn't know before, I know acronyms I didn't know before. And you just, you realize that you stretched yourself.
- [19:33]
A
How do you think you evolved as a leader the most in those nine years, nine plus years?
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B
I was just talking to someone about this in doing, doing it, having a talent conversation. I think we all try as we, as we move forward in our career to be a better teacher. You and I were just talking about this. A better enabler, someone who lifts other people up. I am also very much a doer. That is how I learn. Always dialing in that balance. And because of where I started at Accenture, I was a doer all the way through. And I did get much better at it when I was in the CMO position. But I did make a concerted effort when I went to MasterCard to not. I'm not starting at the same place I did. I have an incredibly great team. They deserve to be able to behold lifting things up. So I think I've become better. And then I ask permission to, you know, I call it like, you're like a dolphin. I'm up here, I gotta go all the way here. I gotta come back up. And I'll say, these are the projects I'm going to deep dive on. Can I do this with you? Can I be a part of the team? And that helps me learn. And people know I'm doing that not to monitor, but to be with them and learn by being with them. So I will always be teaching myself how to be an even better developer and delegator than I am a doer. It's always a work in progress.
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A
Well, I think you're a pretty amazing leader. Thank you. Oh, really?
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B
Thank you very much.
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A
I'm so happy we're doing this interview.
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B
Me too. It's the best.
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A
Now you have this mantra. Early dirty, often it's early ugly often.
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B
Oh, early ugly often that hysterical. Which is.
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A
So what's the origin story of that?
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B
I read it somewhere and I had worked on an account for a very long time at bbdo and I would watch what would happen to ideas and work because we were taking the work in the wrong direction. And what would happen is everybody has a fingerprint that they leave on the concept. And then it would get to whomever was the actual decision maker who would say, oh no, I wanted this. And you'd be like, that's what we did in step one. So it's a very simple question of why don't we just invert the process? And I noticed it at Accenture. I mentioned Roxanne. Everyone would be perfecting things before it got to Rox and I was two doors down for her. So I'd be like, immediate reaction. Love or hate, we're going this way. And you, you calibrate at the beginning. You have no expectation of perfection. You don't even have expectation of being a quarter of the way there. You're just gut checking. You're. You're just getting a human and emotional reaction to the direction you're going in. And for me, it does two things. Number one, it really stops wasting people's time. And once you have that permission and that, that validation of reaction, then you let people do work and know they're not wasting their time. And the second thing that I think it really does is it keeps, it keeps leaders involved in a way where people actually, they're actually making what the company is making instead of just seeing it finished having no idea of where it came from. It's dangerous if you get too far from the actual craft of what we do. And so I think it works for both the people who are doing the work, they're empowered, but also the leaders, they're involved.
- [22:44]
A
How do you actually do that? I mean, we used to do, when I was at P and G, show the brief for a new initiative or a new piece of work to the highest boss in the chain who will have. And just say, are you aligned with the brief?
- [22:56]
B
Yep. And then what happens? You probably go away for too much time.
- [23:01]
A
Yeah. So.
- [23:02]
B
And I have a brand new agency team that I'm working with now. They don't, they don't know me at all.
- [23:07]
A
Right.
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B
And that was my thing with them is like, so what we do is we, we gut check. Really. Like, these are the different stages.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:14]
B
And again, it's involvement, it's deep caring. They know I care about where they're going. And by the time as I'm seeing the work, I'm seeing it evolve, I'm seeing it get better. I'm like, oh, I liked these three territories. And you went here, freaking brilliant. I love that. Like, there's so much more passion in working that way. But my, the team is still fully empowered. They're doing everything. I'm not going to worry about anything that gets made from the new work I've been seeing because I. We all hurt each other. We know what we love and why, and there's incredible talent and capability and trust that it will actually get made in that way. But if they made it all and they were so invested in it, and then I saw it and said, oh, gosh, I really wish you had turned left instead of right. That just demoralizes everybody, and it takes the energy and the heart out of the creative process. Now you. I was explaining this, actually, to the leadership team at. MasterCard. If you don't get that early, check in. By the time they do the work and they've fallen in love with something and you have to go a different direction, you've lost all the energy, you've lost the battle.
- [24:20]
A
Yeah. I remember when I started working with Wyden and Kennedy years ago, Dan Wyden said to me, we have to make things, and if you let us, if we sit on something too long, it gets stale.
- [24:32]
B
It does.
- [24:33]
A
So he said, just, this is the way we work. I hope you can adjust. But we see something, we make it.
- [24:39]
B
Yeah.
- [24:40]
A
And it can be made rough, but we do it for reactions. And he's right. If you sit on ideas and then nothing happens with them, they get stale. So it's a different. A bit of a different concept. The point is the same. Agree in a direction, make something, get a reaction, make it better.
- [24:56]
B
Yeah. What we do is to create, to make something sit on a shelf for so long. It's just. It's completely in opposition to what we believe in. Yeah.
- [25:06]
A
Now we're here at Cannes. Lyons, you just flew in this morning. It's your first one as CMO of MasterCard. You've been in the job six months, so I suspect your agenda is full this week. I know you have a family holiday at the end of the week, but you probably have a very busy schedule. What in that busy schedule are you most looking forward to?
- [25:27]
B
I am so excited. The first time I was at Cannes, I was on a jury, the inaugural B2B Creative Jury. And I am forever changed by the process of watching other people advocate for other people's work like it was the best. Ironically, a MasterCard project was in. That was assessment in that jury. Little did I know. But what I'm really looking forward to this year is seeing people learning a lot, but also refilling that creative bucket, seeing some of the best work in the world. I have time reserved to do nothing but walk. Walk around and learn and do that with the team from MasterCard. Who's here, the team from our agency partners who are here. And I think it's a good time. We will go into planning and I want to be challenged. I want to see the best work in the world and I want to make sure our brand can go there.
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A
Wow. So how will you do that? Will you walk in the Palais? Will you go to certain presentations together?
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B
Yep, all of the above.
- [26:27]
A
All the above.
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B
So we have different people doing different tracks. Also we have a portion of the business that is here because MasterCard also has marketing services and MasterCard commerce media. So I'm spending time with them, as I mentioned with you, I will learn, I want to hear what our customers and other other CMOs and marketing and advertising leaders say back to them. So it'll be that side of my brain. It'll be my are what we're looking at doing and, and what's the feedback and the reaction and learning I get? And then the last part will be the pure creative immersion and just the enjoyment of that process.
- [27:02]
A
Do you go to the awards at night?
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B
Yeah, I'm going to go to a couple. Last time I didn't get to and this time I'm going to go to some because it's just such a happy, happy place.
- [27:11]
A
Yeah, it is, it is. And you see work, right?
- [27:13]
B
Yep. You see work, you see work.
- [27:14]
A
So. One of the things I have learned from years of talking to the best CMOs in the world is this. The question is never just whether your creative is working. The question is whether your infrastructure can keep up with it. Because a brilliant campaign still has to travel through an ad stack, through data, through decisioning, through supply, through measurement. And every hop in that journey is a place where value leaks out. Most platforms solve one piece of that. A data company, a dsp, a measurement vendor, you stitch them together and pay a fragmentation tax in performance, in speed and in accountability. Infilion built something very different. Demand supply, data measurement and creative connect it in a single composable platform. The highest performing opt in attention formats via Infilion's proprietary tech in the industry, Agnostic Identity Resolution Solutions and now Catalina. 130 million US households of verified purchase truth running as live signal through every campaign they execute. No black boxes, no hops, no fragmented vendor relationships to manage. The only company I know of that can take you from the first moment of attention to the final proof of action for any vertical on any screen without leaving the platform open. Composable agentic that is Infilion. Now, two themes of course this year will be AI and creators, right? There's a lot happening with creators in can and that started two or three years ago. So when you think about this new brand. You're responsible for MasterCard, and I know you do a lot of partnerships. We'll talk about that in a minute. But as you think about AI and what you've learned and you think about the creator space, what is your feeling about what both of those mean for MasterCard? I mean, these are mega areas, but. And you're already all over AI, I'm sure, but what do you think its potential is to help your brand? And then we can talk about creators after that.
- [29:18]
B
Okay, so starting with AI, obviously, I learned a lot about this at Accenture. The beauty of AI is the sheer. I'm a big data geek. I love to really immerse myself. I love when an agency presents like the insight part of the brief. And what I'm already seeing is there's more depth to that than we could have ever, ever achieved before. So I love AI for the, the mining, the synthesizing, the hypothesizing that happens in the inside phase. I think it could be some of the best things that ever happened to us. And then I think you've got it on the other side when it comes to the personalization. I think it was Julia White who was at an event that I was at where she said, this is what we always dreamed of and could never get to. So those are the places that I love, love, love to see AI. I like to see less of it in the actual creative process because I do think that's a very human craft. I was just talking to your team about like writing and how important writing is. Writing is like therapy. Writing is sharpening thoughts. I think that everyone coming up in this business needs to really be an excellent writer and an excellent communicator. Don't, don't, you know, freelance that out to a tool. So I think there's that part when it comes to the craft, when it comes to the business, I mean, if you think about MasterCard, the number of transactions we process, the number, the fraud, you know, risk prevention, fraud prevention, risk we have, I mean, that's all AI enabled. It always has been, obviously, agentic commerce and what that means agent pay, agent pay for machines, all the things we've been announcing, it's just a whole new era, but it's still. That agent is acting on behalf of a human. It's always going to be human desire, it's always going to be human brand loyalty. It's always going to be human satisfaction and relevance that we solve for at the end. So lucky for us, new challenges. But the actual craft of what we do remains unchanged and that's making a connection with a human being. So that for me is the AI space.
- [31:25]
A
Yeah. What about creators?
- [31:27]
B
So creators, this is what's so interesting. And I didn't really think about it until I heard you say those two things next to each other. You wouldn't have a lot of those creators if it wasn't for AI.
- [31:36]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [31:36]
B
So AI isn't the death of creativity, it's, it's an enabler of creativity. Those creators are a way to, to find, I mean the relevance equation and the ability to go to someone through the something they authentically love that you had to squish people into groups and even if they didn't quite fit, those creators allow you to participate in communities. And one of the things I love about the MasterCard brand is it's a big brand. A lot of people talk about our sponsorships. Absolutely. But we actually activate at a very community level. We're very local and that takes a lot more effort, but it is so worth it. And that's what I feel about creators. If you as a brand work with them in the right way, if you learn from them, if you understand their community and what they stand for, you can, you can. It's a two way street with creators and I think that's an amazing place to be. But it does require you figuring out budgets, sponsorships, media, all of those things in a completely different way. And as you and I were talking before, it is one of the places where you have to start with a clean sheet of paper. If you try to incrementally work your way into the space, it won't work. You'll feel like you're, like you're just dipping a toe into the, into the ocean. So I think there's an amazing. If you are a brand and not every brand is, and not every brand has to be where relevance is absolutely required and where that community participation is core, then a creator, a creator universe is a beautiful thing.
- [33:09]
A
You think it's a big opportunity for MasterCard? I sense passion in how you're saying.
- [33:13]
B
I do think it because at the end of the day, you know, MasterCard comes down to trust. Do you, do you trust, you know, being in, in an exchange situation of your value and your values with someone else, with a, with an entity? Do you feel totally like connected to the ability to, to participate in that community? And then finally what are, what agency are you going to be promised? Like that's the scary part about, about smaller communities. It's. Is there anything risky about this. And So I think MasterCard's participation breeds trust. It breeds confidence in a way where you know that your control and your agency is not being taken away. So I, I love the ability to bring those qualities that are very inherent and inherent to our brand to different communities and different ways people want to connect with each other.
- [34:05]
A
Now your career, I mean, many years in the ad agency, 10, almost nine plus years in Accenture. Now MasterCard, you know a lot about building cultures of creativity. Yeah, you've seen a lot in clients. You've built them yourself. We're at this festival of creativity. One theme in my program here, the Sumo accelerator, is always, how do you build a culture of creativity? And we get. We had Tor from Apple come in last year and talk about building a culture of creativity. He's done it in the agency side and now with a very big client. How do you lead to build a culture of creativity? What sorts of things do you do? What sorts of things do you value? You know, how do you measure it? How do you know your organization's creative and working to their potential?
- [34:50]
B
It's actually one of the hardest things, not actually to have one, but because talking about it almost puts you in a box before you even begin. So one thing, and it just comes from being at a new place. I've actually started asking the question, oh, well, we want to be really creative in the space. And I'm like, okay, help me. It's like, you know how people use the word brand and they actually don't. It's like, tell me your different definition of creative in this space. And then on the flip side, I've been making a point of saying that's the most creative thinking I have, I have seen. I was on a call last Thursday. It was a data call. And it was. I won't, I won't bore you with it all, but we looked at every project MasterCard has done in the last six months. Where's our centers of gravity? Where's our investment going? And the team was talking about it and what they saw and what they learned and the views they took and they like. Then we looked at it this way, then we tilted it on its head. And I'm like, that is absolute. Like, that was the most creative walkthrough. And because of that, they had four things they knew they wanted to do. Like that to me, is strategic creativity. Then you're going to have someone who's going to come up with the how they want to do it. Maybe they'll have an Investment or a partnership or an executional idea. But creativity takes so many different forms. And in my very early years, sometimes I knew as an account person I was being ridiculously creative. Like the way I would get the creatives to feel motivated when I knew the client was actually saying things that were highly demotivating. So how do you as an account person translate that? Like incredible creativity on your toes in the moment. But that wasn't called creative then. It was the work product of the creative teams. So you were inherently not creative. So I think the opportunity is to name the creativity, celebrate the participants in it, and then celebrate the work. Now when it comes to whether it works or not, that's when you do go more empirical data. And sometimes the work may not have driven the KPIs you thought you were looking for, but I hope people give themselves permission to look at. But what happened around this, because we did this idea that actually opens up the next door.
- [37:04]
A
Who have been some role models for you in building cultures of creativity you've worked with and around a lot of people.
- [37:11]
B
Well, I did work a lot of years at bbdo and I was just talking about David Lubar's. I think that the way he empowered teams, the way he synthesized and he
- [37:21]
A
was a worldwide creative leader.
- [37:23]
B
Yes. Just, just fantastic to have worked with him. And I speak to other people who he. He has forever changed their view. So I know it's not just me. And then of course, I've had the privilege of working with David Droga and so many other people at Droga5. What I love about David is he is more humble than I ever. He always surprises me with his humility. And I think it's because he's always in pursuit of the next idea and he builds teams who, who do that. Um, and somebody once said to me about David that he was. Would be shocked if you didn't buy his idea because he believed in it that deeply and that I think I learned a lot from him around that incredibly deep belief. If you don't believe in an idea to the, to the like absolute depths of your soul, why are you bringing it forward? And so I think both of them were. Were great role models for me.
- [38:15]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Now, advertising has played a big role in mastercard's business model and history. Obviously the role of advertising shifting this festival is a lot about that. What do you think the role of advertising is for the brand going forward? I mean, it's a hypothetical question.
- [38:33]
B
I do still think it plays an important role. And let me explain that it's not because you have to be traditional in your approach to advertising. But I think anytime you assume one part of the equation is irrelevant, you limit your thinking. And I think that the real job we are inherently, we observe humanity in many ways. And I'm not a big fan of big, you know, like declarations that something is in and something is out. Cause the minute you think something's out, it's coming right back. I do think you do have to look at, as you play with investment levels or, or executional levers, what is happening to your ability to tell your story and reach different people. And what you're talking about and who you're trying to reach are, is going to drive very different types of things. So I mean like it's all advertising at the end of the day because you're, you're trying to reach someone and have them create. Prefer you prefer your brand, your product over others. The way you do it may change, but I just think that the mix will change. We're playing around right now with a little bit of what those mixes might look like going forward.
- [39:54]
A
Yeah.
- [39:54]
B
And it's really interesting.
- [39:56]
A
I had a CEO at P& G years ago who said every brand, even though they may not have any ad budget, should make an ad.
- [40:04]
B
Yeah.
- [40:05]
A
It clarifies who you are.
- [40:07]
B
It really does. Trying to tell a complex story that simply.
- [40:12]
A
Yeah.
- [40:12]
B
And really what, what, where is what we create not in the, at the end of the day, an ad.
- [40:20]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [40:21]
B
I think too many people assume Advertising means a 30 second TV commercial.
- [40:25]
A
Right.
- [40:32]
B
Hi everybody. I'm Andrea Sullivan, the CEO of Vive and we have produced the CMO podcast with Jim Stengel for many years. And I'm sitting in his seat right now. It's so exciting. I wanted to tell you a little bit about one of our programs. It's called Vive by Vayner. It's a 12 month program that's designed for C suiters and founders. And we want to help people to grow their businesses but also to grow themselves. And so we bring in people from Shark Tank to talk to our founders, but we also focus on wellness. We want to make sure that people are leaning into becoming their best selves, their best and happiest selves. So if you are someone that wants to learn how to grow your business and grow yourself, check us out at Vive Co. That's V Y V E co. We'd love to talk to you.
- [41:30]
A
Let's flip into the creative brief. So I want to go back, when did you discover that advertising and marketing were for you.
- [41:37]
B
You want to know the truth?
- [41:38]
A
Yeah.
- [41:39]
B
My first job out of college, I was a receptionist at an ad agency. It was the only job I could get. And it was a small.
- [41:47]
A
Nope.
- [41:47]
B
Spokane, Washington. Oh, my Small, independently owned. I moved there in order to be with my husband, who had just gotten a job out there and not my husband yet. Which I don't recommend that you move across the country and change your entire career path. But I'm still married to him.
- [42:02]
A
Good.
- [42:02]
B
But you. I watched the people, and because I was the receptionist and people actually came into the office, then I learned how people wanted to be recognized. Some people, it was very important that they were known whether you answered the phone or greeted them at the door. And other people were quiet. It was the. It was the beginning of understanding that all of your audiences are not the same. And all the people within even a given group are not the same. So I ended up participating in a new business pitch. Because they were shorthanded. Well, actually, first I filled in for someone on maternity leave as a production manager, and I realized how hard that was. Then I filled. Then I participated in a new business pitch, and I just loved it. Because to me, it was the culmination of. I loved it. When you knew your stuff, like, you knew it, you had done your homework. And I was the absolute most junior, least qualified person on that pitch. But I had done the media study piece, and that was all they answered questions about. And I ended up asking all the questions. And after we won the business, I was given the account. And it really formed my belief that you don't need to know everything, but you need to know what the client needs you to know. And there's no shortcuts on that. You have to do your homework, you have to do your work. And I never left. I never left. I had actually gone to school for broadcast journalism, and that was what I thought I was going to do. But I never left marketing and advertising once I started.
- [43:32]
A
Wow. Why has it been so right for you?
- [43:34]
B
Cause it's people oriented, and it is a very generous profession. Like, I talk about that all the time. I mean, you. You give your ideas, your. Your personal beliefs to others. You literally, if you do your job well, what began as your idea becomes someone else's. And it's not the pride of ownership, it's actually when they take it away from you that you know you've succeeded.
- [43:57]
A
So that's a nice thought.
- [43:58]
B
That's just. That's just what makes me happy. And I'VE always liked giving the gift more than getting the gift, and I think that's what you do all day long. So it's very human. You work with really emotional, smart people, and you get to give great ideas away and hopefully watch them work.
- [44:18]
A
Yeah, that's a beautiful thought. So we talk about partnerships, and you have a lot of them as this brand. Which one? Of all the partnerships you have, are you looking forward to sort of taking to the next level? I'm sure, you know, you want all of them that are right to thrive, but is there one in particular you think, oh, that's gonna be fun to do the dive and come back up again.
- [44:38]
B
Where I'm mid dive right now is with McLaren. Our partnership with McLaren, it's newer, it's big.
- [44:44]
A
Yeah.
- [44:45]
B
It's got incredible brands associated with it and the audience it reaches. And again, McLaren, Amazon, big and passionate. Yeah. What a partnership. Like women, Gen Z, it's got all of the right ingredients, but also Zach, and that has a really nice personality about it. That's very fit for purpose. So part of that's personal learning, but part of that, I think, is when you combine the two brands and their personalities and their cultures and then the other brands that are around it and the constantly growing interest in the sport, which I know nothing about right now, that's a really interesting place for me personally. And I think it's got continued upside for MasterCard.
- [45:28]
A
What's the first brand you remember making an impact on you as a young girl in a creative way?
- [45:34]
B
It was definitely in the toy space. I was saying Mattel Barbie. Like, those are the biggest things because I have a sister, and we would ask for gifts like that connected to each other. So, like, we'd be making the whole home and pool and car and universe and then everything else. You know, it's really. It was less a brand, but it would be in the music space. It was always a very musical household that I grew up in. My parents always loved Broadway and like, our first record player, I could remember exactly what that looked like. And recently my son found his first ipod. We were cleaning out. Cleaning out boxes. And I. I think that there's. That would be. That would be the other piece. I, of course, I don't remember the brand, unfortunately, of the record player back then, but those would be.
- [46:17]
A
We hear Barbie a lot on the show. Yeah, you know, we hear Barbie, we hear Nike. You know, you hear a lot of
- [46:22]
B
the expected McDonald's, but, like, those earliest memories of playing with my sister and
- [46:27]
A
Barbie was Barbie, you Couldn't get another doll. It had to be Barbie.
- [46:30]
B
Yep.
- [46:31]
A
So you heard a lot about in the last. Well, in your onboarding, how Raja is remembered. Right. He was there 13 years. Who knows how long you'll be there? But how do you want to be remembered someday when you leave this role for something else?
- [46:46]
B
Well, I think MasterCard is on. Its business strategy has expanded so dramatically. I hope that I will have been privileged to work with the team into a space where we are able to. We help the world see MasterCard in A. In a more expansive way, beyond the gut reaction of what you know about the brand. Helping brands expand. It's not easy. And when you're the more iconic it is, the harder it is, the harder it is. Absolutely. I will be very proud of that.
- [47:15]
A
Yeah. Who's been the most inspiring person in your life?
- [47:18]
B
My dad. And I feel bad saying that. Cause so is my mom. But my mother, I don't know if you know this. She has multiple cirrhosis. She's the strongest person I know by far. And stubborn in the best possible way. My dad finds joy in everything. He always has. I was just at his house yesterday, and he was. How many ears of corn could he fit in the pot without having to go to a bigger pot? 88 years old and having the time of his life. So he is his career teacher.
- [47:45]
A
Oh, wow.
- [47:45]
B
Both my parents are teachers.
- [47:47]
A
What'd they teach? What subjects?
- [47:48]
B
Um, my mom was a elementary education, and my dad was high school, which is hard. And then eventually you went into administration, so you become like, the vice principal or the principal, which all the kids love to hate. And when you're the nicest man in the world, and he literally is. That's an odd place to be. But he does everything with kindness. He always assumes positive intent. And I. I watch that every day. I'm privileged to be able to have watched it this long. And I'm thrilled he's still with us. But he is my inspiration.
- [48:16]
A
Now you're leaving Cannes and going on a family vacation.
- [48:18]
B
Family vacation, Right.
- [48:20]
A
What are you most looking forward to in your family vacation?
- [48:22]
B
You know, my kids are both married now, and the six of us, we call it Kramer xl.
- [48:27]
A
Two more coming too, right?
- [48:29]
B
Yes.
- [48:29]
A
Are we allowed to talk about that?
- [48:30]
B
Yes. Baby's on the way. We're just like the puzzle with the right pieces. All so different, but it just works. And we laugh a lot. And I look forward to just laughing all week long. And a lot of ice cream.
- [48:42]
A
Okay. Ice cream and laughter. It's good. Yeah, it's good. You can't go wrong.
- [48:45]
B
Yeah.
- [48:46]
A
This has been so fun.
- [48:47]
B
I loved every minute of it. Thank you so much for having me
- [48:50]
A
and have a great week. Have a great summer. You know, all the best in the role. You're going to be great. You are great.
- [48:55]
B
I hope so. I hope so. I will give it my absolute all because it deserves nothing less.
- [49:00]
A
That's great. That's a wrap.
- [49:01]
B
Thanks.
- [49:02]
A
So good, Jill. Wow. That was my conversation with Jill Kramer Three takeaways from this one for your business brand in life the first one Earn Trust First. When you're stepping into a new role or leading a team you've worked with for years, trust comes before transformation. Jill talked about the importance of listening before leading, taking questions before making changes, and giving people permission to embrace the past while helping build the future. Leadership isn't about having all the answers on day one, we all know that. It's about earning the right to lead over time. Second, creativity is definitely a team sport. One of my favorite ideas from this conversation was Jill's catchphrase, early ugly. Often the best ideas don't appear fully formed. They become great through collaboration, feedback, and continuous refinement. And perhaps most importantly, creativity isn't reserved for creative departments. Great ideas can come from strategy, data, operations, or anywhere. People are encouraged to think differently. And third takeaway Keep humanity at the center. Jill has spent much of her career helping organizations embrace new technology, and she's excited about AI, but she's equally passionate about protecting the human side of marketing. AI can certainly uncover insights, personalize experiences, and make us more effective, but it can't replace curiosity, empathy, great writing, or the emotional connections that make brands meaningful. Technology will continue to evolve. The human craft of marketing should never change. That's it for this week's episode of the CMO Podcast. As always, I would be grateful if you shared our show with your friends, along with subscribing and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. The CMO Podcast is a vive original production.