The CMO Podcast

Episode: Norm de Greve (General Motors) | Driving into the Next Century
Host: Jim Stengel
Guest: Norm de Greve (Chief Growth Officer, General Motors)
Date: January 14, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Jim Stengel sits down with Norm de Greve, General Motors’ (GM) Chief Growth Officer, to talk through an era of transformation at GM—one defined by re-centering marketing within the company, embracing accountability, leveraging technology (including AI), and elevating both talent and culture. The conversation, recorded live at the ANA Masters of Marketing in Orlando, uncovers how Norm’s philosophy of high expectations and kindness, as well as his hands-on approach, are fueling a rebirth at one of America’s most iconic companies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. GM’s Momentum and Transformation

(05:28–07:09)

• GM’s stock had recently seen a significant lift post-earnings, a testament to organizational momentum despite a tough global environment.
  • "It's the day that everybody hopes for, right? Release earnings, stock goes up 14%. Holy cow." – Norm de Greve [05:28]
• Norm attributes this to beating earnings, raising expectations, and—crucially—a renewed focus on products that customers truly love.
  • "The GM of today, you probably haven't seen for 50 years... the products are winning in the marketplace." – Norm de Greve [06:13]

2. Building CMO-CFO Partnership

(06:41–08:59)

• Norm emphasizes the importance of building conviction with finance by integrating the CFO (or their delegates) into core marketing processes, creating discipline and mutual confidence.
  • "From the very beginning, I put him ... on the steering committee to develop the plan to grow sales from marketing." – Norm de Greve [07:39]
• The approach focuses on transparency and measurable business outcomes rather than “must-do” marketing initiatives lacking clear return.

3. Speaking on Purpose & Growth

(09:16–10:19)

• Norm reflects on his previous talk at the ANA (when he was at CVS Health) and describes returning to the stage to speak on “Rebirth” and transformation at GM.
  • "You want to show up well for your team, for your company, amongst your peers… I just try to remember when I get those butterflies, that's energy." – Norm de Greve [09:56]

4. Owning the Work: Transformation at GM Marketing

(10:19–14:02)

• Historically, GM had outsourced most marketing activities, leading to underdeveloped internal capabilities and slower responsiveness.
• Norm led a shift to build in-house marketing talent and accountability. This required transformation in agency relationships and capabilities.
  • "When your agencies are doing a lot of work, it's easier to say, well, they did it. When you do more of the work. Now it's you. But it's also empowering. It's also exciting." – Norm de Greve [12:28]
• The new model retains external agencies but demands clear ownership—and creativity—from both sides, avoiding “watering down” creative ideas for broad approval.

5. Internal Capability Building & Agency Model Updates

(15:38–19:19)

• Analytics and data-driven functions were brought in-house to drive insight and accountability; media handled with external agencies for broader market perspective.
• Routine production (“crank out the donuts”) is handled by foundational agencies or increasingly by AI-driven processes, freeing creative partners for higher-value work.
• The rise of AI changed the talent-for-production mix, and GM is still building out its model for integrating these tools.

6. Measuring & Defining Marketing Accountability

(19:27–21:34)

• A new discipline: Marketing success at GM is measured by being in consumers' initial consideration set and winning the shopping journey, tailored to specific buyer segments.
  • "Once you know that and then you track how often are you in the initial consideration set... that system, it's another thing about accountability." – Norm de Greve [20:22]
• Accountability is now built around specific, tracked outcomes—not just a sales uptick or positive feedback from leadership.

7. AI in Marketing: Hype vs. Reality

(21:43–23:58)

• AI is a hot topic, but anxiety around it pervades both agencies and client companies.
• Early lessons: AI struggles with brand nuance, creativity, and practical production (sometimes harder to prompt the AI than to create the asset yourself).
  • "When you ask it to, like, we have a car... and you say move the tree, it doesn't just move the tree. It actually has to re-render the entire picture, which means it can now make a mistake in the car." – Norm de Greve [22:31]
• Norm predicts 2026 will be a “more work year” as old and new coexist; payoff will come as systems mature.

8. The Role and Elevation of Marketing in the Enterprise

(24:09–25:10)

• Norm leverages industry involvement (ANA, MMA, Ad Council) to further both “the doing” and the reputation of marketing across the C-suite.
• He encourages marketers to “speak a language” that resonates with finance/ops leaders and insists that senior executives must also up their understanding of marketing’s business impact.

9. Contrasting GM with Other Giants: Lessons from CVS

(27:34–29:51)

• At CVS, Norm sharpened his sense of purpose-driven brand building; he aims to “change the narrative” at GM from factory-centric to “products people love”.
  • "More Americans fall in love and stay in love with vehicles from GM than from any other auto manufacturer. Which is true. And that's our job, make products people love." – Norm de Greve [29:35]

10. Leadership Philosophy: High Expectations and Kindness

(31:39–32:40)

• Norm’s promise to lead with high expectations and kindness continues at GM: striving for “esprit de corps,” innovation and belonging.
  • "With high expectations you create esprit de corps... That does not have to be at the exclusion of kindness." – Norm de Greve [31:58]

11. Staying Close to the Customer

(32:40–35:49)

• Norm insists CMOs (and Heads of Insights/Strategy) must stay close to the customer; at GM, this is often routed via relationship with dealers.
  • “What’s happening with a dealer is they're running, you know, 100 experiments a day on which lines are working best... That's insight, right?” – Norm de Greve [33:38]
• Warns that as companies get bigger, “center of gravity” can drift inward; leaders must resist prioritizing short-term EBIT over long-term customer value.

12. Insights on CEO Mary Barra’s Leadership

(35:49–37:45)

• Mary Barra, GM’s CEO, is praised for humility, creating space for voices, and building a “remarkable” leadership team.
  • "Something Mary does incredibly well is she works to make herself not the center of attention in a meeting or in a room. And by that it brings out more voices." – Norm de Greve [36:16]
• Barra’s passion for strong brands and legacy is matched by a desire to leave GM and Michigan stronger than she found it.

13. Creative Work and the '3Ds' Principle

(38:13–39:24)

• Norm's creative brief: All work must be distinctive, desirable, and drive demand (“the 3Ds”).
  • “My goal for creative work: To be distinctive, desirable and to drive demand.” – Norm de Greve [38:16]
• Praises GMC campaigns for deep insight and impact, notes Buick, Chevy, Cadillac also have standout work.

14. Personal Reflections and Audience Q&A

(39:41–44:48)

• Norm credits the power of classic cereal ads for imprinting brand on his youth.
• Audience Q: How did he attract top talent to GM? A: Leaders want to “create and build something”—ownership attracts builders.
• Audience Q: What would young Norm think of him today? A: “My seven year old self would never think I would be where I am today. ... It was smaller. And it's a good reminder for all of us... You're doing all right.” – Norm de Greve [42:07]

15. Advice for Marketers: Stay Hands-On

(44:48; closing)

• Norm’s final advice:
  • “To be a successful marketer, you do need your head in strategy, but you can never forget that your hands need to be in the kitchen sink. ... Keep your hands in the sink.” – Norm de Greve [44:48]

Notable Quotes

• On Transformation:
  "The GM of today, you probably haven't seen for 50 years... the products are winning in the marketplace."
  —Norm de Greve [06:13]

• On Agency Partnerships:
  "When your agencies are doing a lot of work, it's easier to say, well, they did it. When you do more of the work. Now it's you. But it's also empowering."
  —Norm de Greve [12:28]

• On AI in Marketing:
  "It's really hard for AI to understand your brand and it's really hard for AI to understand taste... Sometimes it's actually faster just to shoot it than it is to figure out the magic prompt to get the thing to do what you want it to do."
  —Norm de Greve [21:43]

• On Marketing Accountability:
  "A better customer experience doesn't pay off tomorrow... if you become too focused on eking out the next EBIT quarter, you can get away with a bad experience quarter after quarter after quarter until you can't."
  —Norm de Greve [34:56]

• On Leadership and Expectations:
  "With high expectations you create esprit de corps... That does not have to be at the exclusion of kindness."
  —Norm de Greve [31:58]

• Signature Advice:
  "To be a successful marketer, you do need your head in strategy, but you can never forget that your hands need to be in the kitchen sink."
  —Norm de Greve [44:48]

Key Timestamps

• [05:28] GM’s current momentum and resurgence
• [07:39] Building finance-marketing partnership
• [09:56] Reflections on speaking at ANA, transformation narrative
• [12:28] The role and empowerment of in-house marketing
• [19:27] Measuring marketing outcomes
• [21:43] AI’s reality versus hype in marketing
• [24:09] Elevating marketing as a business driver
• [29:51] Contrasts with CVS; shifting the GM narrative
• [31:58] Leadership: High expectations and kindness
• [33:38] The value of customer/dealer proximity
• [36:16] Mary Barra’s uncommon leadership
• [38:16] The creative “3Ds”: Distinctive, Desirable, Driving Demand
• [42:07] Personal growth and legacy
• [44:48] Hands-on leadership—“keep your hands in the sink”

Tone & Style

The conversation is candid and energetic, laced with Norm’s sense of humility and conviction. Jim Stengel’s inquiries are insightful yet approachable, ensuring the interview probes both practical leadership and personal reflection. The overall spirit is one of optimism, ambition, and pragmatic change—and a clear belief that marketing can and should be a strategic driver in even the largest, oldest companies.

For listeners and industry leaders alike, Norm de Greve’s story at GM is one of purpose, accountability, and transformation—powered by a simple principle: stay close to both the strategy and the day-to-day reality.