← The CMO Podcast
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- [00:00]
Jim Stengel
Before we dive into today's episode, we would very much appreciate a moment from you to make sure you're subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, along with optioning to auto download the episodes. It really is the best way to never miss an episode. Along with supporting the show and the amazing team that helps me bring it to you. And while you're there, leave us a rating or review. It only takes a minute and helps more people find the show and helps us learn. And of course, share this episode with a friend or colleague who might enjoy it. We wouldn't be here six years later and still going so strong without you all our community. So thank you for being part of it. Now, onto the show.
- [00:41]
Sophia Hernandez
Are you really buying a car online on AutoTrader right now? Really? At a playground? Yeah, really. Look at these listings from dealers. Wow, your search can really get that specific. Really? And you just put in your info and boom, car's in your budget. Mom needs a second. Honey, you can really have it delivered. Really? Or I can pick it up at the dealership. One sec, sweetie.
- [01:02]
Child
Mommy's buying a car.
- [01:04]
Sophia Hernandez
Mommy, I think your kid is walking up the slide. Kyle. Again?
- [01:08]
Jim Stengel
Really?
- [01:08]
Sophia Hernandez
Auto trader. Buy your car online? Really?
- [01:13]
Jim Stengel
What's the first brand you remember making an impact on you?
- [01:16]
Sophia Hernandez
I think probably early days it was the clothing brand Jerbo, because that was so iconically kind of what everyone is wearing. Big striped shirts, big baggy pants. And that was very much my thing back then. But I just remember it feeling not just like an urban brand, but a very aspirational brand. Maybe because of the name, maybe because of how they presented themselves. But that was one of the brands that, like, I had an early affinity for. That I really felt was like, wow, I want that.
- [01:48]
Jim Stengel
Hi, I'm Jim Stengel. I've helped hundreds of major brands discover and activate their purpose. Because when a brand's purpose is clear, compelling and authentic, profit naturally follows. Each week, I welcome the CMOs, the chief marketing officers of your favorite brands, to speak to how their job is so much more than marketing. These leaders share their inspiration and challenges along with how they try to build a full, healthy and happy life in and out of the office. And it's that energy that reaches everyone they touch. And we're glad you're here to feel that energy and to learn from these remarkable leaders. So here we go. This week, I'm joined by Sofia Hernandez, the global head of business, marketing and commercial partnerships at TikTok. The global platform now reaches more than a billion users globally and has grown into a multi billion dollar advertising business, reaching $33 billion in ad revenue in 2025 by some estimates. TikTok has been available in the US since 2018 and and since then the app has changed culture and marketing. Their mission is simple, to inspire creativity and bring joy, which they are very good at. The brand has of course been surrounded by controversy since its launch in the US at the time owned by Chinese company ByteDance. Just last month, TikTok US was acquired by a consortium of investors including Oracle, Silver Lake and Abu Dhabi based MGX. My guest Sophia has been at TikTok for about six years, part of the leadership team on one of the fastest growing brands in the US and the world. Prior to TikTok, Sophia was the Chief Client Officer at Consumer Insights Platform Suzy. She began her career in advertising working at the Publicist group in a variety of roles along with a five year stint at bbdo. An activist at her core, which we will talk about, Sofia recognizes her role as part of the 1% of Latina executives in tech and is committed to fostering inclusion in the industry. This is my conversation with a leader who is a beautiful blend of a fighter and a relationship builder. Here's Sophia. Well, welcome Sophia, to the CMO Podcast. Now, we've met before, which we're going to talk about in a few minutes, but I spent the last several days learning a lot more about you, listening to you in other venues, and I just want to say up front, I think you are a remarkable woman. And thank you for joining us today.
- [04:01]
Sophia Hernandez
Thanks. And I'm honored to be on your podcast. I've been a fan and a listener for so many years, so thanks for having me.
- [04:09]
Jim Stengel
Well, thank you. Well, listen, let's start with something that I know we share more than one thing, but I want to start with this thing that we share. You were on the P and G account on the agency side early in your career and I was still at P and G when you were working on P and G brands. So just a question, do you look back on that time fondly?
- [04:27]
Sophia Hernandez
So fondly. So fondly. One of the highlights of my career.
- [04:31]
Jim Stengel
Okay, that's good.
- [04:32]
Sophia Hernandez
P and G has always been lauded as the company that kind of defined the best practices from a marketing standpoint. And I know you were a big part of that. The role that I played was the brand agency leader at an agency and so I essentially was a part of the PNG marketing team taking the responsibility off of the brand manager of managing the Ecosystem of agencies. So just to learn what a marketer on the client side, as we would say back then, was really focused on, like, 5% of their attention was the advertising and marketing. And it was really about the business and shipping cases and the financial health of the company. And to be a part of that was really amazing. I worked in the Simia region out of the Geneva office and had such a diverse cast of characters that I partnered with. It was an absolute highlight hearing those
- [05:24]
Jim Stengel
words, brand agency leader, which I haven't heard in many years. And I was CMO when we pioneered that concept, which for our listeners was, you know, obviously every brand works with multiple agencies. It can get very confusing. How about if we have an agency leader that interfaces with the marketing director or the brand manager? Wouldn't that help us be faster, more integrated, more holistic? We rethought compensation. So could you speak a little bit about that concept and did you find it helpful for you in helping the P and G brands and people succeed?
- [05:57]
Sophia Hernandez
Yeah, I mean, you keep mentioning how long ago that was, so I'll just double down on that. For back then, I think it was a really novel idea because even today, and we'll talk about this a little bit in this podcast, but today, marketers are still struggling with managing the ecosystem of partners that they have to engage. And I think the expectation today is that they actually engage more partners to connect with their audiences the way they need to. So I think it was a really novel idea to have one person. And, like, if I'm going to be crude, they used to call it the one throat to choke. Right. That was. That was the person that really helped these messages get out to the ecosystem of audiences that they were trying to reach. So I think it was a great program. I loved it. And what was great is I kind of hopped around from agency to agency, playing that same role for Procter and Gap.
- [06:47]
Jim Stengel
Yep, I saw that.
- [06:49]
Sophia Hernandez
Yeah.
- [06:49]
Jim Stengel
How do you think that time shaped you as a leader? What carries through to this day from
- [06:53]
Sophia Hernandez
a people standpoint, working in semia, having before that was really my first truly global role where I was living outside of the us I was living in France, going to Geneva, Switzerland regularly, which is where the team was headquartered. Really immersing yourself into cultures, both for the business and working in the business. You know, that was a core shift in my leadership style and my leadership philosophy. I learned how important it is and how difficult it is to bring people from different cultures together against one kind of goal and how important it is to give people your ear and make sure that everyone feels heard and has a chance to contribute. Then obviously as a leader, you make an executive decision. But making sure you hear all perspectives opened my eyes to how the smallest of countries or regions have the biggest ideas sometimes. And that has really stayed with me. And I've only been in global roles since then because I enjoyed it so much, working with the brand managers and managing directors from Israel to, you know, India, the Middle east, and just figuring out how to command their respect and get them to listen to someone who wasn't a pnger, but an outsider. But trying to bring this all together was also a huge learning experience. And I think in the end, my big takeaway is we're all human and we all have amazing ideas and we all just want to be heard and listened to. And so the best leaders do that.
- [08:30]
Jim Stengel
That's a good segue into what I want to talk about next. One thing I found super refreshing in researching you is your openness and transparency about social justice. You were obviously influenced by your grandmother and mother, and they were both activists in their own way, as you are. You have had a clothing line for 10 years, black on black, BK. It's all about social justice. So my question for you is, it's a difficult needle to thread working as a senior leader in business while staying true to your values and beliefs about social justice. So could you talk about that a bit and what your counsel is for others who may be trying to thread that needle? Because many. I've talked to many who are, and it's not easy. Obviously there's lots of variables here, but I would just love to get your insight on that.
- [09:17]
Sophia Hernandez
Yeah, I mean, I do a lot of public speaking on both the industry, but also just leadership. And one of the most common questions I get from the audience when I'm speaking about leadership is how do you keep doing this and stay true to yourself and your values? Which kind of breaks my heart that so, so many of us feel like we have to code shift or change who we are to fit in these environments. And from a marketing perspective and from a business innovation perspective, I think deep down inside we all know that the best ideas come from the most unexpected places. So why do we keep building our teams in a kind of monotone way? Why do we keep hiring the same. I mean, let's be honest, like, we're hiring the same person in these CMO roles over and over and over again. My answer to people is one, like, it's a very personal reason why. Right? Like, everyone has their reason why they keep moving forward. But the reality is you don't have to change who you are. I think the. The more of us that don't conform and adapt to, like, the. The environment that we're put in, the more those environments will change. It just takes a lot of resilience and a fighter spirit, and that's just inherently who I am. So I kind of came into this thing ready for the fight and ready to keep paving the way for other people to just walk into these environments and be more of who they are.
- [10:48]
Jim Stengel
You're a fighter, but you're also a tremendous relationship builder. And your retrospective on P and G, I think, illustrated that in that small story. But I've noticed it as a red thread in your career. How do you manage that? Seemingly opposing characteristics.
- [11:04]
Sophia Hernandez
Right.
- [11:05]
Jim Stengel
Fantastic. In building relationships and a real fighter for what you believe. So could you talk about that?
- [11:10]
Sophia Hernandez
Yeah. I think a fighter doesn't always have to be what it immediately puts in your mind, which is like bull in a china shop or someone who's really aggressive or assertive. A fighter just means that I will not stand down when I believe something is right. And there are lots of. There are a lot of ways to express what you believe in, and there are a lot of ways to fight for what you believe in. So that takes me to your question on relationships. I believe relationships are core to everything in life. And I, you know, we talk a lot about relationships and how that matters in corporate life and corporate America, especially at more senior levels. But, like, really, anything in life is rooted in relationships and the way you build great relationships. And my philosophy is to give more than you take. So I show up to every situation in my life and in my marketing career and business career asking and finding ways to contribute, like, what can I do to make this situation better? I think beyond the job description and every single role I've ever had. So, yes, sure, you hired me for this, but I know my impact can be this. And so I'm constantly finding ways to give, because when you're a giver, people are more willing to listen. Listen. They're more willing to give back. They're more willing to collaborate and cooperate. So I just. I fundamentally believe in showing up to the table and finding ways you can contribute in a positive way.
- [12:38]
Jim Stengel
You've been at TikTok about six years.
- [12:40]
Sophia Hernandez
Yes.
- [12:41]
Jim Stengel
And that's a long time, right?
- [12:43]
Sophia Hernandez
Pretty much since the beginning, right?
- [12:45]
Jim Stengel
Yeah. So tell us about your scope and focus now and how that has evolved since you first joined six years ago.
- [12:53]
Sophia Hernandez
So I joined in 2020 and I was probably employee two something, right, 200 and something. And I joined to really grow the North America business marketing team. And at that point we were still just like on very, very few marketers radars. It was a very nascent business and we grew very quickly as you know. And then within a year I moved into the global role and expanded my scope bey marketing. And the way that that came to be is again going back to what I said. I just saw the opportunity to do more in a hyper growth environment, especially given my background which has been really diverse. Before TikTok, I built and grew a SaaS business and so I did that by building relationships with our sales org, with our product org, with our music team, with our and we just found ways to partner together to help grow this business. And so a marketing rem remit became a much larger remit over time and today I'm responsible for commercial partnerships. I'm responsible for sales enablement obviously for traditional marketing, for all of our creator and consumer and government relation events. So the scope has grown but I think the through line through all of it is how can I build a team that can really help the business thrive. And so this has been an incredibly fast six years and it's true for anyone who's heard that like six years at TikTok is 12 years anywhere else. And I think you see that impact even in the world that we've had. So when you're working in a fast paced environment like that, you're learning every day and it's really important that you are someone who can like roll with the punches and evolve with the changes and you don't resist change. And if I just make a comment outside of that, I feel like that's where we are as an industry right now. Like we are being hit with so much change, so much new media, so much innovation that some people are freezing and don't really know where to go. And some people are diving into it headfirst.
- [15:13]
Jim Stengel
We'll talk about that in a minute. I just want to pause on what you just said. I think it's a big, big lesson for other CMOs and senior marketing people. You came in, you asked the question for the philosophy, I give more than I take and then I want to do whatever I can to help this company thrive, whatever that might be. So you saw your scope not as fixed but as sort of fluid, open. We talk about growth mindsets. I think most CMOs who have that mindset and act on it are wildly successful. Those that are not get put into sort of a stereotype or a pigeonhole. So I just think how you approach that and to sense what the company needs and flow to that and match your skills with what the company needs. Whatever the job description was when you joined is so smart. And I would surmise that's why you're there for six years and have done so well.
- [16:09]
Sophia Hernandez
Thanks. I mean, I'll admit I thought I had worked in hyper growth environments building a SaaS business, working on the agency side, but this tech and the business that we built at TikTok was hyper growth. Right? And hyper growth breaks all norms and molds. And so when everything you were taught in your textbooks, in university, or in your years of experience with P and G, with agencies, et cetera, all of those norms are challenged, you have no choice but to not resist it, but lean into the challenge and figure out what you can do differently. That level of like diving in, always being curious is what we've created at this company and within the team. And I know we always say like curiosity kills the cat, but I feel like curiosity, I've learned, turns the cat into a lion. Like that. You need to there's our headline Stay. You need to constantly stay.
- [17:03]
Jim Stengel
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- [18:36]
Sophia Hernandez
Yeah, it's a great question. I one fundamentally believe in the product. I love how TikTok empowered, underestimated voices to really shine and have a voice. Anyone you think about Kabilam, for instance, who is a factory worker in northern Milan, had just lost his job and started making TikToks where he doesn't even talk, he just shrugs at things that he thinks are ridiculous and silly. And he's now the highest. One of the highest paid creators in the world. And so it gave everyone and anyone an opportunity to share their voice, share their talents, share their passions and their interest. And I fundamentally love that that's what it has done in this world. In terms of the role, I'm not joking when I say every single day I learn and every challenge that I was given from my managers or from the CEO, every time I said, oh, I don't know that that's possible. That's really aggressive. Like, I'm not sure we can, they were like, try. And we did it every time. And there were only a few kind of pushes before I started to just incorporate that into how I operate and how I lead my team. Because you know what, the whole concept of good, fast, cheap, you can't have all three. You can actually have all three, especially today with new technology. And so it really pushed me to get out of the mindset of, like, I don't think we can. In fact, when I lived in Paris, I joke about how the biggest phrase I'd get was c' est paposi, which is like, it's impossible. And I'm like, but it is possible, right? Like, I've erased Papacy from my lexicon because everything is possible. Sure, there will be sacrifices here and there, but we've really pushed ourselves to the max to do things that we didn't think were possible. And it changes your mentality as a leader, right, and how you structure your teams and how you lead your teams and what kind of budgets you ask for and how you use your budgets. And I think it's made me an incredible. Not only marketer, but also operator.
- [20:42]
Jim Stengel
Now. Your company's in the news a lot, of course, it's always been, but especially recently with the new ownership of TikTok US. And I just want to. I don't want to go into the details of that. It's been covered very well. But anytime a business goes through a change, a new ownership, an acquisition, it's time for reflection, renewal, recharging. So I'd just like you to wax a little bit about what are you hopeful about with this change and how are you managing that with your team?
- [21:10]
Sophia Hernandez
I'll keep it specific to the team. I think with this change, it also is happening at a time of a new. I don't even call it a chapter. It's like a new volume of growth for the company. And so the first five years we were really growing the product, growing the business, growing the audience, globalizing, figuring out really who we were. And I think we have a very strong sense of that now. And so we're moving out of, you know, like maybe we're moving out of adolescence and into a more mature phase of our being. And with that comes more mature processes, more mature go to market strategies. So it's really kind of we're moving into that phase and it's having us rethink everything from, you know, like what we're saying about ourselves as a brand, how we're showing up, how we're behaving, and what kind of people we need to take us into the next five, six years of growth, which is the reality of any company at this phase of growth. So that's really it. I think it's more practical than, than maybe people think. But yeah, we're entering a brand new phase of growth and with it comes new thinking, new ideas, new new ways of. Of being.
- [22:29]
Jim Stengel
I think you remember this four years ago, you came into my CMO accelerator program at the Cannes Festival and you were still a relatively new brand then. Right. We're talking about 2022. I think it was 2022. And if I remember that presentation correctly, I think the title was 10 Things CMOs Needed to Know to Think Like Marketers But Act Like Creators. I think that was the title. And you went through all 10. And we do a lot of research on that program every year to be sure that we're nailing it. People are benefiting from it. It was the most highly rated segment that year.
- [23:03]
Sophia Hernandez
Oh, that's awesome. I didn't know that. Thanks.
- [23:05]
Jim Stengel
So do you remember that?
- [23:07]
Sophia Hernandez
I do remember. I remember because there was something that I had done as an experiment that I talked about a lot at that class, which was I usually have creators on the main stage with me at Cannes. And I did something before we got on stage that wasn't rehearsed, but I said, if I asked you guys to concept an ad for me on stage, would you be able to do that? And they're like, yeah, right. And so I said, adidas reaches out to you and they want to promote their new sneaker Go. And literally within 30 seconds, one of the creators said, well, I would start with some photos of me as a kid because I used to wear Adidas all the time and I love soccer. So I'd show myself as a kid kicking the soccer ball around, and then I would cut to myself as an adult wearing the new sneaker, et cetera, et cetera. I'm like, that is how fast things are happening today. And I think that was not like a light bulb, but definitely set the stage for the reality of the role creators would play in marketing. When we were talking about it back in 2022 and the new mindset shift that marketers needed to incorporate around creating content. And by the way, here we are now in 2026, and there's more hyper ability for instant creation of content and really high quality content at the touch of a button. And so I think a lot of what we talked about back then is still relevant today. We talked about evolving business timelines. One thing I think we're still struggling with is I always say that as marketers, we're really great at being students of culture. We hire agencies, we work with, you know, our research and insights companies, and we're great at being students of culture. But what audiences and people and humans want today from brands is for brands to be a part of culture. And that's really hard for brands. That's really, really hard for brands because, and I said this then, like, we're very comfortable in our brand safety guidelines box and legal and CEOs and investors are very uncomfortable with brands putting their, their brand in the hands of consumers. But that is fundamentally what consumers expect today. If you really want to win, what
- [25:28]
Jim Stengel
do you think it'll take to shift that?
- [25:30]
Sophia Hernandez
So, I mean, you know this very well, Jim. Like, every brand has a few areas that they feel really define the brand, right? Like Pepsi music or, you know, so and so fashion. I think we're gonna have to go beyond that very kind of generic definition and figure out how far into social justice topics we're willing to go, whether or not we dare touch politics. When you think about, you know, what happened with Target and black and brown LGBTQA communities, I mean, that was a moment where Target had to make a choice. And, you know, the smartest brands are already preempting those situations and really expanding their definition of where they play and what they're willing to talk about and stand up for and. And people are going to hold brands more accountable moving forward.
- [26:24]
Jim Stengel
Do you think the issues with brands is that they're not consistent? I think the ones that I think really were in the press a lot for not the right reasons. I'm not sure it was the action they took. It was just the lack of consistency.
- [26:39]
Sophia Hernandez
I think consistency is one, but I think it was a fundamental definition of who we are and who we aren't. And that's what I think is going to have to evolve. Brands really need to get their core leaders together and decide, like, how do we expand this current sandbox that we've defined and how far do we go? And the brands that define that and are true to it, no matter what happens, they're going to win.
- [27:03]
Jim Stengel
Now, your presentation you made at Cannes was a big hit, but I know you're learning every day. Your thinking has evolved since then. And your team shared with us some work that you're doing sort of on what are the principles of modern successful marketing. But could you talk about those four principles? And I think they were earn the seat. Growth breaks, what used to work. Structure is a growth lever, and speed comes from alignment. So you were the Most popular speaker 4 years ago in Cannes. Maybe you'll come back this year. But if you could expound on that a little bit, what you're learning now, why those are bedrock principles for you at this time.
- [27:38]
Sophia Hernandez
Yeah, I mean, I'll start with marketing has to earn its seat. And this is really kind of rooted in all of the roles I've played in marketing for the last two decades and especially over the last six years, not just because I was at TikTok, but because in the last six years, we've had an incredible amount of disruption and shift in our industry. So I think some people come into a marketing org and just feel entitled to be there. Right. When all along, we know that marketing as a cost center always has been. But we are being held more and more accountable to prove roi. Right. And so instead of resisting that, I think it's our responsibility to very quickly and very regularly prove why marketing exists, to be, you know, like a strong driver of the business. And I believe marketing exists to drive the business. It's not just to build relationships. It's not just to do really cool, stunty things. But there are so many ways that marketing directly and indirectly impacts the bottom line. And I think we need to tell that story and tell that story regularly. So one thing I've told my team is like, as much marketing as we're doing externally, we have to do the same internally. Like, we're constantly, constantly on an internal campaign talking about our successes and not in a chest Speedy way. But by the way, that new AI product that we just launched, this was the result of it. And this is why we were right in doing xyz. Right. And so people aren't good at talking about themselves in a positive way and their successes, but we constantly have to prove that we have a seat at the table by talking about business impact. And yeah, I think it's an ongoing and recurring and constant thing, which is kind of a pain, but it is what it is. So the second point is when you're in environments of hypergrowth, which everyone is right now, hyper growth, hyper, hyper change what used to work breaks. And you should just anticipate that it will, that what you used to do as a best practice or consider a best practice is no longer relevant. And so instead of waiting for that to break, how do you proactively start thinking about, you know, things that we used to do in a more scalable, in a more innovative, in a more like, new technology type of way. So that's like the second point is just be proactive with kind of breaking your own models and evolving them.
- [30:11]
Jim Stengel
Anyone you want to cite on that point other than yourselves? I mean, I think it's a very powerful point.
- [30:17]
Sophia Hernandez
Yeah, I think for the industry overall, this, and we mentioned it earlier, this idea of, like, I want to work with one media entity who is going to help me plan my ecosystem of, you know, like, media outlets to reach my audiences. Like, that is a very antiquated way of thinking about connecting with your audiences. I think today you have to be on the pulse every day, every week, every month, and constantly restructuring and tweaking that original model. I think an original model is fine, but you need to be more interactive and engaged in the community because things are happening from one day to another and the best brands are in that conversation. So how do we evolve that? And I've been in many conversations where CMOs are saying, like, I just don't have the bandwidth. I know that actually some of the indie agencies are better or they're, they're better for my business, but I don't have the bandwidth to manage it all. Figure it out. Because you need to be partnering with the best partners and media agencies have an opportunity to bring in more of those kind of indie companies and deliver a better offering for their, for their partners. So I think that's one example.
- [31:31]
Jim Stengel
Number three, structure.
- [31:33]
Sophia Hernandez
We are just very averse to change and redundancies and reorgs and I mean, you see it in the media, like so and so lays off 10,000 people so and so 4,000 people. And it's like everyone's scared and paralyzed. And within TikTok we've moved so fast and have literally changed in six months increments that I've had to really think ahead to avoid this disruption. Like if we're changing this fast and I'm in year one and a half, what am I going to need in year three? How can I think ahead and how can I bring those people in now so that I'm not being reactive and it doesn't feel like there are changes in the organization, but also being more open to changes in the organization because the business is moving so fast and so we need to upskill and reskill people, but sometimes we need to bring new people in. So just moving away from like the kind of the scarlet A that's on your chest when you're like thinking about redundancies and reorgs, how do you manage
- [32:36]
Jim Stengel
that with your people, your organization?
- [32:39]
Sophia Hernandez
I don't have a perfect answer for that. People are people and we don't like change. And it is a very emotional process. Like I've done this throughout my career and every time it's never easier because we also have things going on right in our personal lives. And so I don't know that there's a perfect way to manage that with people. But the approach I've taken is to be transparent that this is a culture of change. And so when people are like, can we anticipate more changes? Probably right? And like this concept of job security and stability, I don't know that that even exists in the ecosystem anymore. And I'm not talking about TikTok specifically, I'm talking about our world. Like things are moving and changing and shifting. So I think it's just like rose colored glasses. The fact that as innovation change, as the business needs change will change and just being transparent about it, that's a start, right? And honestly, like making the time people are spending here great while they're here, like life is short. I don't want to work for a jerk. I don't want to be that kind of leader. I want to be a leader where people feel like they're constantly growing and they're coming to work every day motivated. So it's on us. It's a lot of responsibility on all of us to keep the business moving forward, keep a healthy kind of approach to the business and keep people happy. It's hard to juggle all of that.
- [33:59]
Jim Stengel
Number four, speed comes from alignment.
- [34:01]
Sophia Hernandez
I always call the marketing or the Octopus because we have our tentacles in every single discipline, every single discipline in the organization. Everyone. And there's no other discipline that can do that. Which is why I think we're like super stars, gods and goddesses of the organization. And so if that's our role, that there's a lot of power in that. Right. And I often find that marketing is driving a lot of the communication and clarification within the organization. And so how do we use that to our advantage? We have an internal tagline on our team where we. Our team is called gbm and our tagline is we connect minds to make magic. And that's very much kind of what drives us. Like we are master connectors throughout the org. So when this product person's not talking to this product person and we know that that story is better together, that's our job. We need to figure out how to smooth that out and get the right message out to the industry at P&G
- [35:00]
Jim Stengel
at its best operates that way, as you remember. At its best.
- [35:03]
Sophia Hernandez
Yeah.
- [35:10]
Child
Hi, everybody. I'm Andrea Sullivan, the CEO of Vive and we have produced the CMO podcast with Jim Stengel for many years. And I'm sitting in his seat right now. It's so exciting. I wanted to tell you a little bit about one of our programs. It's called Vive by Vayner. It's a 12 month program that's designed for C suiters and founders. And we want to help people to grow their businesses, but also to grow themselves. And so we bring in people, Shark Tank to talk to our founders, but we also focus on wellness. We want to make sure that people are leaning into becoming their best selves, their best and happiest selves. So if you are someone that wants to learn how to grow your business and grow yourself, check us out at Vive Co. That's V Y V E Co. We'd love to talk to you.
- [36:08]
Jim Stengel
You interact with a lot of CMOs at a variety of companies through your day to day responsibilities. And you have a great podcast series. I watched a couple of them. They're wonderful. You're a great host.
- [36:17]
Sophia Hernandez
Thank you.
- [36:18]
Jim Stengel
What do you feel that CMOs are getting right now? We're just talking about the insane change. And where do you think the blind spots are?
- [36:26]
Sophia Hernandez
I think the CMOs that are doing it right are finding ways to be a CMO plus. And I know a lot of people don't want to hear that, but I'm like, I know you just had so young on. I mean, so young is President now. Right. And you think about someone like Corey, who's president of one line but also CMO of the rest. And so at ELF. Yep, yes, yes, Corey at ELF. And so I think CMOs are owning the fact that they have a greater impact on the organization and they're finding ways to really secure that in a more formal way as it relates to connecting with audiences. What I'm seeing happening at like warp speed is the formation of more hyper micro communities. And so when you think about how we think about go to market in this like mass reach way. Right. Like we still very much think about reach and impressions and we're moving into environment where people are so tired with what's coming at them that they're going into these hyper micro communities. In fact, the creators that have smaller followings have higher, almost like eight. I think the stat is 18% more engagement than mass creators because they have a stronger connection with their communities. And so I just talked about the challenge CMOs have managing this ecosystem of agencies. Right. I think, by the way, I think they all need Vals Brown agency leads. But you know, they're like, this is too overwhelming. I just want one person to work with to reach my audiences. The reality is like now all these micro communities are going to make that even more difficult. So that's something that CMOs really need to keep their eye on is how am I going to start to engage at that hyper niche level? Because that's where the real impact is going to happen.
- [38:16]
Jim Stengel
I would think AI's potential is to help them do that. It is in a way that may have been unthought of four years ago.
- [38:24]
Sophia Hernandez
Yeah. I think from a creative production standpoint and personalization certainly also from a distribution standpoint, the automation is making it so much more easily easy. I really think it's an internal problem. The tools are out there. It's really like how do we shift our mentality, how do we shift our planning cycles and how do we shift our internal operations to work that way?
- [38:45]
Jim Stengel
I think we've talked about this, but I have. You had a great quote I wanted to come back to. You said that people or consumers expect brands to behave like people and that everyone wants to be entertained now. That's kind of the point we talked about five minutes ago. It's not the norm in modern marketing. And do you want to wax on that a little bit? How could we make that the norm?
- [39:08]
Sophia Hernandez
How can we make entertainment the norm?
- [39:10]
Jim Stengel
And to behave like people. Right. Brands behaving like people versus something else.
- [39:15]
Sophia Hernandez
Right. So we talked a little bit about just how we need to widen our kind of like spaces that we feel safe playing within. So our guidelines and what we stand for as a brand. I think, I think from a action standpoint, it really is holding ourselves accountable as marketers and our minus ones and minus twos to actually be where the community is. So like, how many comments are you reading through in your vertical? Like, how many searches are you doing? How much are you almost like behaving like your audience so that you truly understand what their experiences are? I can't tell you how many times I speak to a group of very senior marketers who still don't have TikTok downloaded on their phones and fundamentally don't understand what that community or experience is like. And by the way, that's changing very quickly. We're starting to see a lot more activity around search within the TikTok platform. People are searching within the first 30 seconds. So that means that there's, there's a whole new way for your brand to, to be discovered. And I think marketers just need to be on the pulse of those things by actually rolling up their sleeves, by rolling up our sleeves and diving in.
- [40:27]
Jim Stengel
I thought it'd be nice to do a little round, a very TikTok, a fun round about a rapid fire regarding CMOS on what you want to keep, kill or rethink. You probably want to rethink most of these, but you might want to kill a few of them. The first one is chief Marketing Officer title kill.
- [40:45]
Sophia Hernandez
I think this is more than marketing, so maybe it's a rethink, but it's more than marketing. We are responsible for the consumer and the way the consumer sees everything related to the brand, whether it's philanthropy, whether it's product, whether it's, you know, like how we show up at events. Like everything related to consumer is the role of the marketing leader.
- [41:08]
Jim Stengel
Okay, big super bowl style campaigns, rethink.
- [41:12]
Sophia Hernandez
We have a lot of brands that are not opting into super bowl and have been TikTok first. But I still think like one of my favorites ads was the Coinbase ad, the karaoke Coinbase ad because it's inexpensive, it's brilliant and it incited engagement, which is very hard to do on television. And so kudos to that brand. But I think what you want is engagement and that's really best served off
- [41:42]
Jim Stengel
the big screen marketing, owning revenue targets.
- [41:46]
Sophia Hernandez
Keep and evolve, keep it, evolve. I think that's what seeds us as an important entity in the business. And frankly, I want to own own revenue targets. I want to be someone, a leader at the company that is responsible for the growth directly.
- [42:02]
Jim Stengel
This is a quote we hear over and over. Some love it, some don't move fast and break things.
- [42:07]
Sophia Hernandez
I don't know that you have to break things to move fast. I think you have to leave things behind, which I know is essentially the same sentiment. But break things sounds so scary. I think you just need to constantly evolve, challenge yourself to constantly evolve and move forward.
- [42:24]
Jim Stengel
Long form storytelling still very much has
- [42:28]
Sophia Hernandez
a role, although I wonder where we're headed. Just as I see newer generations and their lack of patience for longer form. I wonder where we're going with long form. I still think it very much has a long shelf life though, and it's ripe for certain stories. Purpose inspired brand building Purpose inspired brand building Purpose is a core part of what marketers need to almost like redefine re explore as it relates to the brands. Because we are moving especially, you know, in, in the coming two to five years, we're moving into a territory globally, but especially here in the US where purpose is everything. Why do we do this? Why are we selling this? What do we, how do we really want to connect with people? What are we really telling them about this? The days of like the. I remember this fondly from my PNG days of like the reason to believe and the key statements and the scientific like before and after. Like, honestly, that matters less and less and less.
- [43:35]
Jim Stengel
How do you think we can get purpose better understood? So I think people seem to equate it with philanthropy or cause marketing. And it's as you believe. I think it's a much more deep and fundamental idea. It's kind of why you're here, the difference you're trying to make with your customers and in the world. It's related to your business. It has to be something that inspires people inside the company and outside the company.
- [44:04]
Sophia Hernandez
I think marketers and brands need to think about what consumers want. And consumers want to. They want emotional roi. And because they're exposed to so many face masks that promise to deliver the same benefit and by the way, insert any product into that example, they are expecting something much more personalized to why they want to buy. And I'll give you an example. I was talking to someone on the team and we were talking about emotional purchases or why you buy things. And she just got a new, nicer apartment and her, her big purchase right now is a fancy rug, right? And so how is, and how is like, you know, a rug company washable for Instance, going to tap into that emotional ROI insight and really figure out how to connect with that consumer. And that's not necessarily a purpose driven example, but the reason I'm bringing it up is because purpose is rooted in emotion. And we just, we need to figure out. And this is why I'm saying, like, it's not about mass marketing anymore. We really need to figure out how to talk to these audience in a way that matters to them.
- [45:27]
Jim Stengel
Sophia, I want to flip into the creative brief, and I want to talk about your grandmother and mother, who just sound like amazing human beings. Give our audience a bit of context on them. But I'd like you to talk about how they specifically have influenced your leadership style.
- [45:43]
Sophia Hernandez
Oh, man. I'm going to try to make this very short because I could talk about this for hours. So my grandmother was an original feminist. She came from the tuberculosis era, and she was born in the US but raised in Mexico. And in Mexico they were like, you've got tuberculosis, you're not going to live. So she flew to Buffalo, New York, to get better, hopefully in a sanitarium that they had there. She knew no English. She came from, like a poor area of Mexico. So, like, they didn't even really know what street lights were and things. And she just, like, imagine having the deadly disease, leaving your family and country and going into the sanitarium in the United States in Buffalo, New York, where there's like tons of snow, by the way, that she's never experienced. And so the way that she lived, but the way that she overcame that and then, you know, like, taught herself English, got a job, bought her own home, bought her own car without being married. Like, had three daughters, raised them as a single mother like that, you know, like, I can't even imagine doing that. Like, I have a husband who's a creative and he kind of stays at home and helps with the kids. But, like, I can't even imagine doing all of that on my own. And so especially with language barriers and an illness. And I just, like, I think about that and that kind of keeps me going. Like, whoa, she did that. I can do anything.
- [47:06]
Jim Stengel
What was her name? Her first name?
- [47:07]
Sophia Hernandez
Her name is Susanna. Yeah, thank you for asking that. And then you can imagine what kind of daughters she raised. And so my mother's the middle child, super fighter, feisty activist, has been marching. She's a counselor in Chicago's public, most inner city schools. And she is just someone who gives herself to the community and, you know, works before school, after school, counsels parents if they need it. And she has just always fought for people's rights. And Chicago is historically a city that is very rooted in, like, activism. And so that is the environment I grew up in. And I think it really shaped how I think about navigating corporate America. And, you know, like, when things that feel unfair here happen, I don't let them stop me or hold me back or kind of knock me down. I just think of it as something more that we have to overcome. And so my goal in this space is. Is twofold. One, from a marketing standpoint, is to really change the way we exist as brands. And I talk a lot about, like, a feminine hygiene commercial that I saw early in my early 20s, where a girl plugged a canoe with a tampon. And I was like, oh, my God, how did they think that would resonate with women? But, like, how do we change that? How do we see more kind of diverse experiences and thoughts and stuff in the work that we put out and the way we show up, but also internally, like, how do we see more people like me? I grew up on the south side of Chicago, and people say this a lot, but I'm not supposed to be here. Right. There's 1% of me out there, and I believe if you can see it, you can be it. And so my goal is to continue to help people see it.
- [48:53]
Jim Stengel
Did Susanna or your mother. What's your mother's name?
- [48:55]
Sophia Hernandez
Anna.
- [48:56]
Jim Stengel
Anna. Have they ever given you leadership advice?
- [48:59]
Sophia Hernandez
I didn't get a lot of guidance on how to navigate these spaces. Right. But when it comes to leadership advice, leadership is about being a great human, you know, and. And like I mentioned earlier, like, how. How you treat people and how you get people to feel motivated to achieve something. And so, yes, they. There were a lot of values they instilled in me that really helped shape who I am as a leader. But within corporate landscape, it hasn't only been women or people of color. I've had so many mentors, all shapes, sizes, colors, etc. That have really helped me be who I am today. And I'm really grateful for all of that. And my PSA to everyone watching is like, please just spend time taking someone under your wing and showing them the way, because there's so much that's unspoken that matters as we navigate these environments.
- [49:52]
Jim Stengel
Can you speak about one or two people who took you under their wing?
- [49:56]
Sophia Hernandez
Sure. Very early days, I was a part of a lot of these leadership groups that, you know, corporate entities bring into inner city schools. And so one was called Junior Achievement, and There is a woman named Bonita Bird who was. She's biracial and was one of the first women of color to be in the sales org at AB&BEV. And she had a very. Yeah, she. Yes, exactly. She had a very successful career, and she was kind of our mentor. And so she's known me since I was at. In seventh grade. And she decided later in her career to leave corporate America because she was just kind of done with it all. And she has been a mentor and a guide my whole life. And it's really special to know someone from back then that watches you through not only your, like, personal development, but then your corporate development. So she's. She's one of the people that I'm really grateful for.
- [50:52]
Jim Stengel
What's the first brand you remember making an impact on you?
- [50:55]
Sophia Hernandez
Oh, wow. That's a good question. I think Marcus Collins talks about this a lot, like, how much influence we have on culture as brands and people's identities. And I think probably early days, it was the clothing brand Jerbo. Do you remember that? Because that was so iconically kind of what everyone is wearing. Big stripes, striped shirts, big baggy pants. And that was very much my thing back then. But I just remember it feeling not just like an urban brand, but a very aspirational brand, maybe because of the name, maybe because of how they presented themselves, but that was one of the brands that, like, I had really kind of an early affinity for. That I really felt was, like, wow, I want that.
- [51:45]
Jim Stengel
You are surrounded by popular culture in your role with your team, with your company moving very quickly. Something new every day, endlessly. Fascinating. What do you do to keep yourself kind of recharged, renewed, refreshed in this environment in which you're working to go into a different speed? Do you meditate? Do you exercise? Do you travel?
- [52:08]
Sophia Hernandez
Yeah, all of the above, actually. So I exercise. I'm really into yoga. My husband desperately wants me to meditate, but it's something that I've started and stopped a million times, if I'm being honest. The people really inspire me and invigorate me. So I travel a lot. Like, over the next three weeks, I'll be in three different countries. Dubai, Bangkok, et cetera. And just immersing myself into my teams, the team's culture, and learning from them. That really gets me going. Like, I get so energized by learning how my team in Singapore is leaning into trends differently than my team in the Middle East. Like, it's just. It's. I love. I'm like, A sponge when it comes to other cultures. And so I think that's part of the reason I've chosen roles that are global. Because I get that constant kind of, you know, reinvigoration through the teams. And then when I'm not working honestly, I just want to be with my kids and have some fun. And we travel a lot too. We're big. We. I have a bad case of wanderlust since I was very young.
- [53:16]
Jim Stengel
It's not a bad thing. It's a very good thing. No, I think what you just said, travel is so traveling to see your teams. I mean, I did that a lot when I was at P and G and I did it more and more as I got more senior. It works on so many levels. You're learning yourself, you're being renewed, you're finding best practices, you are giving more than you're taking. People just love that you show up and that you want to be there and hear what they're going through. I always spent time in the market with families I didn't understand to better understand them no matter what the culture was. So it's really, I think, an important leadership characteristic in any company, any category.
- [53:57]
Sophia Hernandez
I agree so much. I'll just add that I was shocked when people told me like, you're so down to earth because I'd go have beers or I'd go to the local hawker at lunch. I think as senior leaders, our HR leader told me once, don't forget that you're the person people are talking about with their families at home. Right? Like when you're this senior, like you're like, wow. And for you to actually say, let's go to lunch at the hawker or let me take you guys out for drinks, that matters so much. So it's not just about going to the markets and sitting in an office and you know, like wearing the most expensive clothes and walking through the halls. It's like really connecting everything I'm saying marketers need to do with their audiences. Right? It's the same with leadership, like really sitting with them and engaging and, and like being there, not just visiting.
- [54:46]
Jim Stengel
You also host a podcast with TikTok. I've watched a few of them. You had some great guests on. Who would you love to have in your show that you haven't had on yet?
- [54:54]
Sophia Hernandez
You, Jim, Will you come on the show next?
- [54:56]
Jim Stengel
Of course I will.
- [54:58]
Sophia Hernandez
You've spoken to.
- [54:59]
Jim Stengel
So that wasn't a setup, by the way. That wasn't a self serving setup up.
- [55:02]
Sophia Hernandez
No, I think you like again, I've Been listening to your podcast forever and you've had such an incredibly dive, like almost everyone. Right. And different perspectives. I would love for you like to hear your summary and best practices from your experience and just from your. From hearing all of this.
- [55:21]
Jim Stengel
Let's make a date.
- [55:22]
Sophia Hernandez
All right. We'll do it.
- [55:23]
Jim Stengel
And you can buy me beers.
- [55:25]
Sophia Hernandez
I will.
- [55:26]
Jim Stengel
Sophia, thank you for this. It was so much fun and I knew this would be a fantastic conversation and it was so. You are. I opened up by saying you're a remarkable human being and I really mean that and I think even more so now. So thank you for this conversation.
- [55:40]
Sophia Hernandez
I really appreciate it. Thanks for making it a fun and easy one. Thank you.
- [55:45]
Jim Stengel
That was my conversation with Sophia. Three takeaways from this one. If you're a business brand in life. And let's start with leadership. I think the leadership lesson here is about being a great human being, and Sophia certainly embodies that. I think half of the show was about how she leads, how she cares about people. She travels to be with her people, to be an advocate, to listen, to help them be more successful, to take their ideas. She is one remarkable leader, and this was, I think, a masterclass. On that second takeaway, the role of the cmo. When I asked Sophia if we should change the name, she said, well, I don't know, but I certainly would say CMO plus. I think her views of the CMO being a fluid role to being one that has much more impact on the enterprise than some people might expect. It's the one function that sort of touches everything. And I think if you adopt the mindset of being an enterprise leader, that changes how you think about your work. Third takeaway, structure is a growth lever. What does that mean? Sophia talked about her organizational structure being very dynamic. We are in a culture of change, she says, and expect our structure to continue to evolve, sometimes as frequently as six months. And that has to be because that's the way our market is moving. And she says it's not easy to manage an organization with that mindset, but it is a lever of growth, and I think one that more of us should think more deeply about. That's it for this week's episode of the CMO podcast. As always, I would be grateful if you shared our show with your friends. Along with subscribing and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. The CMO podcast is a Vive original production.
- [57:30]
Sophia Hernandez
Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now? Really? I can get super specific with dealer listings and see cars based on my budget. You can really have it delivered or pick it up. I think kid is walking up the slide. Really? Autotrader. Buy your car online. Really?
- [57:45]
Jim Stengel
Working across teams is tough, but Asana helps you handle it. That's because Asana is where humans and AI coordinate work together. AI can spot roadblocks and assign work in a snap. So everything and everyone stays on track. That's how work gets handled. That's Asana. Visit us@asana.com that's asana.com.