The Brand Builder's Playbook // Getting Brand Buy In & Activating the Playbook // With David Aaker and Marcus Collins

Summary

The CMO Podcast: The Brand Builder's Playbook

Episode 8 – Getting Brand Buy-In & Activating the Playbook

With David Aaker and Marcus Collins
Release Date: December 5, 2025
Hosts: Jim Stengel & Ryan Barker

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Episode Overview

In the concluding episode of The Brand Builder’s Playbook series, Jim Stengel and Ryan Barker host two of marketing’s most respected thinkers: David Aaker, the “Father of Modern Branding,” and Marcus Collins, cultural marketing scholar and author. They dig into what it truly means to build a brand-led organization in today’s climate of short-termism, AI disruption, and cultural fragmentation. The conversation covers the evolving role of brand assets, the danger of short-term thinking, the need for cultural alignment, and how leaders can actualize a modern playbook for enduring brand strength.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflecting on the Brand Builders Playbook Series (06:10–11:36)

• Recap of Previous Episodes: Ryan summarizes the series, noting how episodes covered why brand matters, emotional connection, pricing and perception, brand ROI, brand vs. performance marketing, partnerships, and media mix optimization. (06:31)
• The Changing Brand Landscape: There’s an emphasis on the balance between enduring brand principles and adapting to new dynamics like AI and cultural shifts.

2. Brand-Led Leadership Exemplified (03:03–06:10)

• Case Studies: Apple & Microsoft:
  • Jim highlights Apple’s focus on creative, brand-led leadership and the lessons learned from his interactions with Apple’s CMO at Cannes. Simplicity, humanity, and distinctive product experiences are core. (03:56)
  • Ryan analyzes Microsoft’s transformation under Satya Nadella—from “know it all” to “learn it all” culture, and the rising importance of empathy and innovation in the brand’s DNA. (03:03, 11:36)

"They transformed from a know it all, very intelligent corporate. And he transformed it to this learn it all culture, grounded on empathy." — Ryan (03:03)

3. Meet the Experts: Brand Imprinting & Early Influence (13:59–16:34)

• David Aaker: Childhood brands like Head and Prince tennis rackets first impacted him, associating early brand adoption with technological change and confidence. (13:59)
• Marcus Collins: Sprite’s “Obey Your Thirst” campaign was his first experience feeling emotionally targeted by a brand—reflecting the power of resonance over function. (14:53)

“It was through that ‘Obey Your Thirst’ work... The first time I felt like advertising was talking directly to me and I was making a conscientious decision to purchase this branded product because of what it meant.” — Marcus Collins (14:53)

• Lessons from Personal Journeys: Marcus discusses working with Beyonce and the realization that powerful brands don’t build community; they facilitate it, aligning around shared values and beliefs. (16:34)

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4. Core Frameworks: Aaker’s 5Bs of Brand Building (19:14–23:16)

• Urgency of Long-Term Brand Focus: Aaker reflects on the origin of brand equity—emerging as a counter to short-term “market share at all costs” thinking. He argues that brands are assets, and the biggest risk is regression to only “demand” or performance marketing. (19:14)
• The Five Bs:
  • Brand relevance (not just awareness)
  • Brand image
  • Brand loyalty
  • Brand portfolio (managing sub-brands, co-brands, etc.)
  • Brand equity (the core asset)

“Branding is more than awareness and image... it’s a long-term asset. And to be successful you’ve got to engage all these elements.” — David Aaker (22:37)

• Marcus’s Response & Culture’s Role: Marcus emphasizes relevance as tied to identity, not just function, and the risk of over-prioritizing the short-term. He calls for a return to understanding brand as a vehicle for meaning and connection. (23:17–26:31)

“Brand is a long-term horizon. We talk about loyalty, trust, equity. These things don’t happen overnight—they’re built over time.” — Marcus (26:31)

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5. Differentiation, Intrigue & Brand Energizers (28:03–34:18)

• On Differentiation: Both experts stress the need for brands not only to be distinctive but also “intriguing,” with a point of view that transcends product features. (28:03–30:29)
• Brand Energizers: Aaker introduces concepts like “brand energizers”—using social purpose or partnerships to inject emotion and relevance, citing Dove’s “Real Beauty” campaign. (30:42–32:45)

“Social purpose is a way to get energy. It’s a way not only to help people but to energize... If it gives you an image lift or engagement lift, then it’s part of the business.” — David Aaker (31:14)

• Cultural Permission: Marcus highlights that when brands take a stance or have a broader worldview, they can meaningfully engage in cultural conversations beyond their category—Nike being a standout example. (32:48)

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6. Culture’s Growing Centrality (34:18–36:59)

• Why ‘Culture’ Now?: Marcus unpacks why his book about culture in brand-building resonates more in the current era. The timing is right: marketers sense culture is powerful yet elusive, and he offers a digestible framework for leveraging it. (35:54)
• Brands as Vessels of Meaning: Brands must understand that their meaning is context-dependent, shifting across cultural lines—thus why thinking about culture is essential for modern marketers. (47:03–49:46)

“There’s no external force more influential to human behavior than culture, full stop.” — Marcus Collins (47:03)

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7. Brand as a Financial Asset & Internal Conviction (45:13–49:46)

• Driving Buy-In: Both agree internal cultural buy-in is critical. Aaker’s method: Ask leaders, “What brand strength do you need to enable your strategy? Which four or five are most important in your world?” (45:42)
• Correcting Bad Marketing Myths: Marcus warns that equating marketing solely with advertising—and brands with logos—undermines the power and influence of brand as an asset. (47:03)

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8. Being a Brand-Led Leader in 2025—What’s Changed? (36:59–45:13)

• Skillset Evolution: Aaker notes modern brand leadership demands new skills: innovation, risk-taking, and sophisticated communications amidst a hostile, fragmented attention environment. (39:39–42:59)
• “Know Thyself, Know Thy People”: Leaders must combine a clear core belief with clarity about their target audience—knowing when to say, “It’s not for you.” (42:59)
• Lessons from Steve Jobs & Others: Great leaders don’t compromise their point of view for short-term expedience. Collins and Aaker list modern CMOs who embody this, including AC Bracey, Morgan Flatley, and Corey Marchesoto. (38:33–39:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Brand Community:

  “You don’t build community, you facilitate it... When you operate at that fidelity, you move beyond what you do, the value propositions of your products, but to represent an ideology, a belief, a conviction that people subscribe to.” — Marcus Collins (16:34)

• On Differentiation:

  “It’s really important to put differentiation up there. And I’ve added a dimension that I think helps, and that’s to be intriguing.” — David Aaker (28:03)

• On Brand-Led Leadership:

  “It’s choosing to be convicted, even when it’s inconvenient... The moment we hit a rough spot, we go, ‘Ooh, is it going to help shareholder value?’” — Marcus (37:17)

• On Internal Brand Asset Mindset:

  “You find something important to you that’s differentiating, that’s resonating. Brand it.” — David Aaker (53:38)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:03: Microsoft’s transformation under Satya Nadella (Ryan)
• 06:31: Recap of first seven episodes (Ryan)
• 13:59: Guests share first impactful brands
• 19:14: David Aaker introduces the 5Bs framework
• 23:17: Marcus’s view on brand, identity, and short-termism
• 28:03: Discussion on differentiation and intrigue
• 30:42: Brand energizers and the Dove case study
• 34:18: Marcus on the impact of his book and why culture matters now
• 36:59: Is brand-led leadership harder now? (Roundtable)
• 45:42: Brand as asset & internal buy-in strategies
• 50:19: Final takeaways for listeners’ playbook

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Actionable Takeaways: Tips for Brand Leaders (50:19–53:39)

• Marcus Collins:
  Ask: “What do I believe?” Clarify your brand’s ideological stance, live it authentically, and build around core beliefs so your brand transcends category.

  “How are you going to win if you ain’t right within? You’ve got to know what you believe.” (50:19)

• David Aaker:

  1. Start by identifying precise, inspiring, and differentiated “brand pillars”—and label them carefully.
  2. Find and brand your “secret sauce.” Take what’s already authentic, articulate it, and brand it to activate its value.

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Episode Summary

This episode drives home that the most resilient, profitable brands don’t just sell products—they lead through conviction, clarity, and deep cultural resonance. The path forward requires balancing long-term brand stewardship with the agility to ride new waves, like AI and shifting social dynamics. Both guests urge marketers to double down on ideological clarity, internal buy-in, and continual evolution in skillsets. The practical insight is clear: find what you believe, brand it with precision, activate it internally and externally, and never lose sight of the power of cultural meaning in shaping behavior and enduring brand value.

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Suggested “Playbook” Additions for Brand Leaders

• Define and rigorously articulate your brand’s core ideology (“brand pillars”).
• Ensure strategic alignment: Identify what specific brand strengths are central to your growth and communicate them at every level.
• Activate your brand’s “secret sauce”—brand those unique, authentic behaviors that drive internal passion.
• Treat your brand as a facilitator of community, not just a marketer to an audience.
• Embrace new skills: innovation, risk-taking, storytelling—while always tying back to brand belief and relevance.
• Be bold and consistent: Align your actions, partnerships, and messaging to your North Star, even when it’s inconvenient.
• Remember: Brands are vessels of meaning, interpreted through culture—never lose sight of cultural context.

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To explore further, review the episode worksheet provided by the hosts for actionable steps and discussion prompts.

Transcript

[A]

You find something important to you that's differentiating, that's resonating. Brand it.

[B]

Welcome to the Brand Builders Playbook, the show for modern marketers who are done with guesswork and ready to implement what actually works. Well, hello everyone and welcome back. Unfortunately, this is the final episode, episode eight of the Brand Builders Playbook. This is Jim Stengel and I'm Ryan Barker. Hey, Ryan. This is kind of bittersweet. You know, it's the last time we're getting together. We've been planning this series for quite a while. I just wonder, shall we do season two?

[C]

I think absolutely. But it is bittersweet. We've learned so much over these last eight episodes, Jims on all the facets of the modern playbook on how to build an enduring, profitable and purposeful brand. So it is. It's a little sad.

[B]

What did you enjoy most about it, Ryan?

[C]

I think it's the diversity of point of views from all the different characters and titans of the trade that we brought into play. A lot of old principles that have been refreshed, current principles to navigate the waters today, especially with AI and all the turmoil and I think this, the practical war stories and advice for whether you're a new brand builder or a seasoned brand builder that needs to revitalize to navigate these waters. How about you?

[B]

Well, I really enjoyed working with you for one. I enjoyed all the planning with your team. It's just fantastic. They're terrific and I enjoyed Lindsay and Kate and working with them and unfortunately we don't have them for the last episode. But I just like their perspectives, their freshness. You know, they bring different points of view than you and me and I just think it added a tremendous amount to the series. You know, I knew both of them before we started and I'm not sure you did. What did you learn from those two amazing women, Ryan?

[C]

Well, you have Kate that comes from an academic background grounded in research. She's not just preaching concepts but teaching future brand builders. I think there's a lot of rigor that comes into debunking myths to hear that point of view. And Lindsey, on the other hand, comes from a very qualitative getting in deep, almost a forensic point of view of navigating cultures and audiences. And I agree, Jim, it's the diverse backgrounds that really help us understand a sort of a 360 degree point of view on how to build a modern playbook for brand building.

[B]

Well, I don't want to say we saved the best for last, but maybe we did for episode Eight. We have a real treat this week. We have not one, but two guests, two experts who are joining us. They are both prominent academics in their fields. They come from different generations, from different backgrounds. They're just remarkable people. Marcus Collins and David Auror, I mean, to have two people to wrap up a series on the brand voters playbook. I mean David Auror has written books about that, which we will talk about. But I just, I think this is going to be so much fun. But we have to return to our tradition that we've done for all eight episodes and that is to talk about brand building playbook that you and I are admiring and that's somehow related to our topic this week. And I want to turn it over to you, Ryan, for, for kicking this off. And then, and then I'll bring the playbook that I am especially thinking about this week.

[C]

Jim. I'm going to go with this week Microsoft with Satya Nadella. Even though he started 11 years ago, I think the transformation continues to be the gift that keeps on giving. Especially from a stock piece. How did they go from a 300 billion market cap to now over 3 trillion, almost 4 trillion. Well, this was a culture that was very much a know it all, very intelligent corporate. And he transformed it to this learn it all culture which was really grounded on empathy and empowering both Microsoft employees that we got to learn, we got to get back into the ground roots and learn. And that led to many of these transformations. They retired some of these brands. It wasn't this notion of it's a monopoly. We got to keep it and really invested in the future. And the stock is continuing to be a thing of beauty.

[B]

It's a great example of leadership and brand led leadership, which is our topic for the week, one of our topics. And ironically I picked Apple and Apple, Microsoft has one of the most famous campaigns in history. But the reason I picked Apple is, you know, for this is the concluding episode. It's about leadership. It's about brand led leadership. We have Marcus and David joining. I mean I think Steve Jobs is probably the best example in history of brand led leadership and his company now also has a very high valuation. And this is kind of especially meaningful for me this year because I was in the Cannes Festival earlier this summer, this past summer, and I run a class there and Apple was named the creative marketer of the year 2025 at Cannes. Lyons and Tor, who is their head of marketing to Marland, came into my class and we had a chat in front of 60 people about what brand led Leadership looks and feels like. And I think, you know, they've been used endlessly as an example, but I think there's a reason for that and to have Tor speaking about the importance of simplicity in brand building, distinctivity, patience in rolling out products and new and new sub brands. If you talk about Apple, the power of product, experience and superiority in product, the power of humanity in a time of AI, he talked about AI running shotgun to the humans. He talked about the importance of debate. And it's all about the work. It's not about, you know, and trust. They have had the same creative agency, Media arts lab, for 28 years. So the lessons just keep going. And so I think that's the playbook I'm thinking about a lot because I'm still pondering that interview and. And I met him later in the week for a drink and we continued to reflect on it. So it was a real gift to be. I. I knew Tor from years back when he was at Gray. It's a real gift to have a little reunion with him and to get him, by the way, down to earth. Lovely, honest, you know, relatable person. Probably one of the, if not the best marketing job in the world. And you would never know it when you're having a conversation with him. I think it says everything about the company and about him.

[C]

Gotta love it.

[B]

We're about to go into the episode eight. We've talked about that. I'd like you, if you could, to sort of take us through the garden of the first seven episodes. Walk us through the garden and give us a little, as Netflix does, a little recap before we go into the final episode. So take us through it, Ryan. So it's all fresh in our minds as we jump into our last session.

[C]

All right, Jim, there's a lot here. So on episode one, we had why Brand Matters. We had our guest, Chris Burgrave. And I think the key insight there was that brand is a growth engine. It's an asset, not an expense, not just a logo with a cute tagline. Episode two, we had the emotional connection with our guest, Sofia Colucci, and really talked in detail about the importance of how emotion drives sustainable loyalty and revenue even today. Episode three, we had Pricing Power and Perception with Sandeep Seth, and really talked a lot about trusted brands and the importance of trusted brands to command a premium price. We talked about how in Barra, that brand love, that emotional connection, reduces price sensitivity. And Sandeep had war stories on that. Episode four, we delved into proving brand roi and we had Raja Manar and the CMO CFO linkage. Even today there's a lot of tension between those and the ability to bridge the gap between marketing and finance. Marketers need to come in prepared. You need to come in with facts and hard data to have those meaningful conversations. Episode 5 we delved into brand versus performance marketing with Andrea Brimmer and she really talked a lot about how equity and efficiency, they're not mutually exclusive and as you know, well published with HBR and the work report on brand versus Performance marketing. We really talked about the hard data on how to debunk the myth that these are siloed lines of businesses when they're really two sides of the same coin. We had a fun one in episode six on brand partnerships with Kristen Darcy and really talked about the process of how do you align your values and collaborations to build trust when identifying strategic brands that could both address your perceptual weakness while reinforcing your strengths. And last but not least, in episode seven, we had Media Mix Optimization with our friend Damon Berger and put it simply, smarter spend equals stronger brand. With all the turmoil today, there are so many areas of optimization for short and long term brand equity. I think one of the key things there is that marketers kind of do a disservice in talking about how brand's all about tomorrow, brand's all about long term. No, it's a short and long term contribution when you're measuring properly and optimizing. So it was a lot. But I'm very excited for today. Jim.

[B]

Well, Ryan, with your like hat of leader of Barra, I hate to put this question to you, but what's your favorite episode of those seven?

[C]

Probably because of the optimization piece. It's frustrating to see that when you're in turmoil, finance folks typically think brand is the first place to take funds away and so or an activist investor is knocking on your door. I think your ability to understand how to prove that brand is an asset, how to quantify it, how to optimize it, whether it's through audiences, whether it's through spend by channel, whether through its positioning in the partnerships, I think that was probably one of the key ones. And while that's not a new concept, I think the tools, the data and AI have allowed us to make it easier to have those debates. How about you Jim?

[B]

Yeah, man, I love them all. The one that maybe surprised me most was the one with Kristen Darcy of True Religion and how energetic that was and, and obviously we're in a, a world where the creator economy is taking over what $280 billion spent on with creators in the brand world. It was a major theme at Cannes earlier last summer. So I just think they, they have a, I mean the brand is hot. It was a brand that was not hot and they made it hot again. And they did it a lot through their whole spirit of who to collaborate, how to collaborate with. And I think they were great, a great role model for how brands need to think about their go to market strategy differently with a very open mindset about who they should work with. So that was a really fun, great, energetic and episode full of learning.

[C]

Yes, it was.

[B]

Now listen, thanks for the review. And here we go into episode eight. We're going to have these brand legends, thought leadership legends, Akur and Collins with us. And I think what I love our audience to keep their antenna for this episode is we hear a lot about AI disruption, cultural fragmentation, constant reinvention. These two talk about brand, that leadership may be the most important differentiator of all. And I think just listen to what these two very wise people talk about when they talk about brand and how to think about it in this very, very, very dynamic world we're into right now. Ryan, before we invite those two guys in, you talked about Microsoft a little bit earlier in terms of the playbook that you're admiring. I know you and the Bara team have looked at a lot of data relative to Microsoft and the principles that are driving it. You spoke very briefly about it a few minutes ago. Can you go there a little bit more deeply before we jump into this discussion with Marcus and David?

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. So we've been measuring data, as you know, Jim, for, in real time for over 11 and a half years. And so if I take that prepoint versus today when looking at Microsoft, one of the things that we can measure is the core competency or the essence of a brand. We know what's in their DNA and then we can tell you what portion of their DNA is actually a driver of both behavior and long term equity. So as I mentioned, Microsoft 11 years ago versus today, the DNA composition being this big corporate brand. And corporate doesn't always mean good things, right? Being corporate has sort of softened in the DNA. Innovation has come into the play and empathy has begun to creep into its core competency. So one thing is when you can see it not just from a Wall street perspective, but consumers are giving those associations and you're seeing that transformation over the course of a decade.

[B]

You wouldn't have associated empathy with Microsoft.

[C]

No.

[B]

15 years ago?

[C]

Absolutely. Not.

[B]

They were an amazing company back then for lots of reasons, but empathy wasn't part of it. And look, as you talked about a few minutes ago, how their market value has absolutely amplified, expanded with doubling down on some things that were gaps and that are really important to people.

[C]

Absolutely. I think it's also worth mentioning when you look at perceptions of data in real time, we measure not just consumers, but B2B audiences, like institutional investors. Seeing two different lenses come together on common perceptions, that's really a testament of transformation.

[B]

Okay, Ryan, enough of us too. Let's bring in our guests.

[C]

Let's do it.

[B]

Well, I am more excited than I can even describe to welcome these two guests on our final episode of the Brand Builders Playbook. So welcome, Marcus, and welcome, David, to the show. You both don't need an introduction in our banter. Before we started recording, I realized you hadn't met each other in person. I think you guys need to do that. But I want to start with a question I use on my. My weekly show to. To kind of introduce my audience to guests and the show. And the question is, what's the first brand in your life that you remember making an impact on you? And, David, I think we have to start with you. The young boy growing up wherever you grew up, what was that brand that sort of stood out and was defining for you?

[A]

I don't know. I think it was the head tennis racket. I was playing tennis, and that really changed things. Then the Prince tennis racket. After that, I think that you, first of all, you had to have a signature wood racket, but then came head, and then came Prince.

[B]

So do you still play with a head or a Prince racket?

[A]

No, I had a bike accident, so I'm not playing much anymore. But it's evolved. And now the rackets today are really technologically amazing, and that's why they can play like they can. It's certainly not because of they're any physically different than we were back then.

[B]

I play with a head racket now, and I keep upgrading every year. I don't think it makes any difference, but it makes me feel more confident.

[A]

Yeah, like golf clubs. You. I upgrade every three or four years, and it doesn't seem to help.

[B]

So, Marcus, how about yourself?

[D]

You know, I think the first brand that comes to mind is probably Sprite. While another lot of brands were in my life, I never thought about them as brands, but Sprite was the first time I knew I was engaging with the brand. It was through that obey your thirst. Work. In my teenage Years. The first time I felt like advertising was talking directly to me and I was making a conscientious decision to purchase this branded product because of what it meant. I mean, that work was just it. Even to this day, I see the spots. I mean, I teach the spots, but I see the spots and I get chills because it just feels. It feels so of the time. And my identity was so, so unbelievably connected to it.

[B]

Sounds like emotional resonance, David, which we'll talk about later. Is that when you decided to go into marketing, advertising, Was that the early seeds of it?

[D]

Oh, not at all. In those days, I wanted to be the fifth member of Boyz II Men. I thought I was going to be a finger, but that was not in the cards for me. So I. I found another path that some way or another, got me into the road of marketing. I'm very grateful for it.

[B]

Well, you did get sort of close to that, right? You worked with Beyonce years ago in digital strategy.

[D]

I sure did. Sure did. And that was after a failed career as a songwriter producer. So I went back to school to get my MBA and then came out after doing some work at, at Apple, working with Apple, itunes, then moving over to run digital strategy for Beyonce.

[B]

So what, what impact did that have, that experience with Beyonce, who, by the way, I think just manages her, I hate to say it, her brand, her personality, so well, she's so fan centric. I mean, she is just amazing. What, what about that experience influenced you?

[D]

Yeah, I would say it was probably one of the biggest failures of my career that actually provided the most insight that I use very much to this day. You know, I learned in my time working with her is that you don't build community, you facilitate it. You find to your point, not just fans, but people who subscribe to the same beliefs that guide you as a brand, as a person, as a human being. And when you operate at that fidelity, you move beyond what you do, the value propositions of your products, but to represent an ideology, a belief, a conviction that people subscribe to and their consumption of your work, of your product are not just because of their functional value, but because of their. Their ideological congruence in consuming you and your wares. And your. Your dealings become ways by which they made their culture material, which is really powerful.

[B]

I'm so glad we have you two guys for the last episode, by the way. This is. This is so fun.

[C]

Absolutely.

[B]

David, I wanted to talk. Talk about backgammon for a minute. We just talked about Beyonce. I. I purportedly, you have played 30,000 games of pacgammon. I'm not even sure how you know that.

[A]

Oh, I don't either, at least. And I play with a friend who beats me 53% of the time, which is statistically significant. And the reason is he's a very ponderous lawyer and I get impatient so I make fast moves. And that's the difference. It's not because he's smarter or better than I am.

[B]

How has backgammon helped you be this brand strategy guru that you are?

[A]

I think it helps me kill time and I think that you need something to get your mind off of everything. And whether it's biking or swimming or doing puzzles, I think that that really needs to be part of your life.

[B]

Totally agree. Well, listen, we could do this banter for the next hour, but we probably need to get into our topic for the day, which is brand led leadership. And you two are. You both have a strong point of view in this space. So thanks again for join us. And David, I want to start with you. You've published a new book. It's actually an update in your classic 2014 book, Ocarina Branding. And correct me if I'm wrong in any of this, I don't think I am. And the subtitle of this new edition is Perfect the Playbook to Building Strong Brands, which is the whole point of this series that we're doing and you've talked about in this book, sort of a new framework, the five Bs. So I'd like you to start by talking about these five Bs or pick one or two that you want to focus on. Then Marcus, I'd like to get your reaction to what David shares about this framework, building strong brands in 2025.

[A]

Well, it starts with I got into brand equity in the late 80s when the when the concept emerged and it emerged as a reaction to the short termism of the P and G model that probably P and G had long drifted away from but nobody else had. And scanner data influence and more than anything else is bcg. BCG was used by half the companies in America and they emphasize that it's all about market share. You just have to gain market share and then the experience curve will give you a cost advantage and you will win. And so everybody will try to buy market share. And I did some research that nobody saw that showed that if you buy market share that in fact doesn't create profits or anything else. But anyway, so at the end of 80s people kind of realized that the strategy of the day wasn't working. And so they turn to this emerging brand equity. And I wrote that first book there that defined it. And the whole essence of brand equity is brand is an asset and it has long term value. You do this short term stuff is spawned by BCG and scanner data and the rest you're going to destroy brands. And they did destroy brands. So then gradually it took over marketing. Marketing became strategic, not tactical. It became sweet, sweet, not mid management. And we have progressed on that for 30 some years and now I see a regression. We got this demand marketing or performance marketing, you got to deliver now, you need leads, you need sales. And they gave it this great brand demand marketing. And I saw some backslipping and so I created the five Bs to remind people that branding is more than awareness and image. In particular it includes brand loyalty which gets you into product development, gets you into customer journey, it gets you into segmentation, gets you into culture. One of Marcus's ideas. And short tourism doesn't do that. That was one thing. The other thing I introduced, the fifth B was brand portfolio. And people really had the illusion that it's just about a brand. It's never just about a brand. To have a strong brand you need a co brand, you need an endorser brand, you need a sub brand and you have what I call silver bullet brands. You have to have brands that branded energizers, branded differentiators and branded source of credibility and all that team has to get you. And then the core B is brand equity which says that brand is an asset and all these things have to work together and you can't have silos managing brand customer relationships, the silo managing the endorser brand. A silo representing awareness. And incidentally it's no longer awareness for me, it's brand relevance which is visibility and credibility in order to be considered. And so I sort of thought this structure is needed to tell the story about what branding is more than awareness and image and that it's a long term asset and, and to be successful you've got to engage all these elements.

[C]

Absolutely agree with David. We hear this constantly from our CMO clients. Short termism versus the ability to invest in brand in good and bad times. And a lot of folks sort of lost their way. Performance marketing alone has done a disservice. And so the ability to balance short and long term contribution. David bringing the 5B's to re educate those who grew up with his philosophies and even for new folks to understand and remind them of that importance.

[B]

But for our audience, the five Bs are brand, relevance, brand image, brand loyalty, brand portfolio, brand equity, which David referenced in that great soliloquy you just went through. David, I loved it.

[C]

Marcus, what do you think?

[D]

You know, when a minister preaches, the congregation says amen. That's my response. Amen. I mean, everything David has mentioned is spot on. You know, there's, there's. To me, there's two things happening here. There's this, to your point, this idea of a fascination with regards to awareness, penetration and imagery, right? Like we talk about brand, people typically think about logos, iconographies, the marks of ownership, because by its very nature, brands are marks, right? Like, you know, the. If you translate the word brand into any romantic or Germanic language, it translates into mark or marque, marca. So immediately when people think about brand, fortunately, practitioners also, we tend to think about the marks. But it's so much more than that, at least when you want to realize its full potential requires so much more relevance. Relevance is, I do, is this brand for me. And when it becomes for me, it's not about the value propositions and functionality of the product alone. It's about congruence with my identity and all the emotions that go into constructing who I am in this socially phenomenal world in which I navigate. And then the other challenge there is moving beyond sort of the superficial nature of brand, that by this point we should know this, but unfortunately we don't. Maybe to your point, David, you said it very diplomatically. We have backslid into, you know, a regressed thinking of how we think of our conception of brand. But the other parts of this, this short termism, and perhaps this is the gift and the curse of marketers, we have this tendency to kind of react very quickly to new things, you know, bright shiny objects, we love it. Squirrel, we turn look, you know, we just can't help ourselves. And actually, I love that about our disciplines that we're so. We're so eager to try new things that sometimes our zeal becomes an obsession. And in that obsession, we swing so far to the other side of the pendulum that we forget things that we have learned. And considering all the technology we have at our disposal, our ability to count things, to see things, to look at behaviors in the here and now and measure its impact in the here and now. We tend to over prioritize the short term, look at what's happening today. But brand is a long term horizon. We talk about loyalty, trust, equity. These things don't happen overnight, they're built over time. And if we don't have the right apparatus or apparati to measure in the long term, we regress to what's available to us, which is the short term. And in doing so, we end up eroding all the, all the nuance, all the texture, all the equity that brands really provide us. And for our, for our, our chances to improve, to optimize the brands that we steward on behalf of our clients, or if you are the client or our partners. It requires us widening the aperture and perhaps going back to days of old, understanding what brand is at its foundational setting and how we can scaffold on top of it.

[B]

You know, in the last couple of weeks, I've talked to the head of marketing at Apple and Nespresso. Nespresso is an $8 billion brand. And they both talked about patience. No, not being first or second, but doing it right, having something differentiated and distinctive, being on brand, role modeling, brand led leadership. You know, Nespresso was founded in the 80s. They didn't come into the US until 2013, 14, because they wanted to get it right and they wanted to be. And talk about premium pricing versus, you know, it is. And the same with Apple. And these are two companies, I think, that get the concepts that we're chatting about right now.

[D]

If, and that's. I do have one ad though, that I should have mentioned that I love that David hit on. I mean, not only did you write the book on brand equity, but you also ushered in the idea of brand architecture. And this idea of brand as a portfolio really is about how do we manage the equity of these different parts of the brand, be it the parent brand, the, the halo brand, its extensions, its partnerships, its sponsorships and the like. And to manage that, you have to by its very nature move beyond just an alignment of assets, just the alignment of logos or of imagery. This is more so about the meanings that these brands hold and how those, how that meaning is transferred in the different contexts in which brand extensions begin to come to light.

[A]

Jim, you mentioned differentiation. I find that it's not as obvious to others as you think. You go into somebody and say, what does your brand stand for? And they'll kind of tell you what they do, they'll give you their mission. You know, we make cars that are safe. And if we're a business school, we're global, we're entrepreneurial, we're social, and we're about leadership. And then you step back and say, isn't that what all business school, all top business schools do? It's really Important to put differentiation up there. And I've added a dimension that I think helps, and that's to be intriguing. You really have to be not only differentiated and of course, in a relevant way, but you need to be intrigued. You need to so differentiate in an intriguing way, like the Haas Business School is confidence without attitude. And that's just intriguing. And so I think that when I have this model of brand vision model, you develop these brand pillars, three or four or five pillars, maybe more. And what we're looking for are ones that are differentiating and really intriguing and resonating.

[B]

So Marcus, is the University of Michigan intriguing.

[D]

I want to put you on the spot, David.

[A]

Marcus can defend the University of Michigan. Thank you very much. I'll stick to Berkeley.

[D]

Well played. Well played. I think the idea is that the brand has a point of view in the world beyond its products, beyond what it does. And this point of view guides what it puts in the world, how it does it, with whom it does it, and becomes a North Star by which everything is governed, by which everything is shaped and molded and its core. You know, this is sort of where Byron Sharp's work becomes really interesting. You know, what we're talking about is not differentiation based on the classic positioning statements like you should choose ours because of some value propositions relative to a category, but instead is, you know, they are distinctive because their separation isn't by what really is parody, product value propositions, but instead by points of view. And if those points of view align to how you see the world, you go, that brand is for me. And now we get to brand relevance.

[A]

Well, if you ask the question, how do we be differentiated and intriguing, that'll take you in that direction.

[D]

Amen.

[C]

So, David, you mentioned earlier brand energizers as a concept in your book. Can you talk a little more about that and how it plays out in the real world?

[A]

Yeah, I think every brand needs energy and differentiation, for that matter. And every brand has almost no way of gaining it. If you make toothpaste or if you make bar soap, there's no way to get energy. So what you have to do is to attach yourself to something with energy. And that's how one of the reasons I got into purpose, you know, I would. I follow Jim Stengel wherever he goes, but.

[B]

So you're the guy.

[A]

Social purpose is a way to get energy. It's a way not only to help people, but it's a way to energize. And I love the story of Dove Real Beauty that took us $2.6 billion. Yeah, it's not Procter and Gamble, of course, but not everything is take a $2.6 billion business and turn it into a $6.5 billion business. All on the backs of a social program called Real Beauty and then its little sister called Self esteem program. And so what I argue in my book, the purpose book, is that you need social programs that help a business because if you don't, it'll just be dead weight and it won't thrive. But if it can help a business, if it gives it an energy lift, if it gives it an image lift, it gives it an engagement lift, then it's part of the business. And it's no longer something that you have to decide if you're going to give money to this year. And then of course, the big problem there is you don't want to be looked at somebody that is doing it just to help your business, which of course you are. And so the way you avoid that is you find something you're really passionate about, you find something you make a long term commitment to, you find something that you're willing, willing to be not only knowledgeable about it, but be a thought leader in that area. And nobody accuses you of that anymore.

[B]

Mark Marcus branded energizers. You like what you heard?

[D]

Yeah. I mean, I would say it's this point of view that brands have about the world that gives it permission to engage in the cultural discourse. If you sell toothpaste and that's the business you're in and that's what the brand is based on, all you could talk about is toothpaste. Not a lot of energy there, not a lot of excitement there. But if you have a point of view in the world that transcends the category, whoa. That, that allows you entry and authority to have conversations about things that have nothing to do with what you do. You know, Nike is a great example of this. Nike sells sneakers. It's a commodity, right? We haven't seen any massive innovation with regards to sneakers since the 80s. And like the pump, the Reebok pump, like nothing, extremely innovative in the category. Yet this brand, until recent times have been able to be so unbelievably impactful in the economy because of its point of view. Every human body is an athlete. Big, small, short, tall. We're all athletes. The only thing keeping us realize our best athletic self is us. That's why Nike tells the world to just do it. And when Nike enters the discourse and they're not talking about where they source their leather or how Shock absorbent, their air, you know, cushions are. Instead, it's a point of view of what it means to be an athlete. Unbelievably powerful, and so much energy that ignites us to buy the sneakers not because of what they are, but because of who we are.

[C]

Marcus, loved your book. It's been out for a little bit more for two years for the culture, the power behind what we buy, what we do, and who we want to be. What's been the reaction to that now, as we are two years later?

[D]

Well, I would say the reception has been very, very welcoming, much to my surprise. Honestly. I feel so humbled by it, truly. And it's not like a, like, LinkedIn humble brag thing. Like, I truly, you know, it's something that I've been talking about for, like, well over a decade, honestly. And, you know, I've been in boardrooms, on stages, sort of proselytizing, preaching this gospel, and it's been like, oh, that's interesting, but never really caught hold. And for the thinking to now have a home in people's minds and even in their organizations, I feel so unbelievably grateful. So the response has been. For me, it's been overwhelming as far as how I feel and in the marketplace of ideas, I feel like culture has a much more. A much more concrete contribution to the discourse. Instead of culture being this sort of abstract, ethereal idea, people can talk about it with some concreteness. We have a better Rosetta Stone by which we can talk about it. And for me, as a scholar, I don't know if you can be much more impactful. And as a practitioner, I feel like in some ways, maybe I'm holding the door for better thinking to build on top of what I've established.

[C]

Interesting, Marcus. And why do you think it's had such resonance now?

[D]

Just like any idea, it's not just the merit of the idea alone. It has to find its right timing. Coming from the music industry, there's so many unbelievably talented artists that never really caught on because they were a little ahead of their time. And not just nothing about me, I think that the serendipity met me at a time where I was thinking about this idea, had the articulation that was digestible, I suppose, and the timing was really spot on that people were talking about culture. And someone probably said, wait, what are we talking about again? What does this thing mean? What does it mean to get out in culture? What does it mean to move at the speed of culture? Just culture, culture, Culture, culture, culture. So much a part of our vernacular. And I think along the ways people just started to realize that we're talking about a thing that we innately know. We know it inherently in our guts, but we didn't really have the best language to describe it. And I think that my book, just at the right time, just had the right language for it just found itself. And for that again, just very, very, very grateful.

[B]

Earlier in the show, Ryan and I talked about brand leaders that we admire. You know, it's tough to be a brand led leader. Right. I think Steve Jobs may have been the best of all time. But I want you to reflect on two years out from the book. Do you think it's harder to be a brand led leader now than it was two years ago? And I'd like David to think weigh in on that as well.

[D]

I don't think so. I think the same, the same pressures are at, are presenting themselves. The same challenges exist. They may manifest in a different modality. Some would say the stakes are higher and I don't know if that's the case. Maybe they're more visible. So that's a little bit more challenging. But at its core I think that it's very much the same and it requires what we've been saying. You know, what's the point of view the brand has? And as the leader, do you hold that point of view and live up to it when it's not convenient? Right. It's choosing to be convicted even when it's inconvenient. Unfortunately, we have all the points of view, all the purpose statements that in the world that we, that we evangelize when it's convenient. But the moment that we hit some a rough spot, we go, ooh, I don't know. It's going to help shareholder value. So that was nice to have. We'll revisit that later on. But in the meantime, no thank you. And as I think about the brilliance of Steve Jobs, which I totally agree is probably one of the best brand people we've ever had, I see some of the contemporary leaders now. We talked about Dove and Unilever. AC Bracey is just, she's, she's just unbelievably talented.

[B]

The cmo Unilever XP and G, by the way, the current CMO of Unilever.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. She's great. The, the global CMO at McDonald's. Morgan Flatley, the North American CMO at McDonald's who recently resigned, Tarkasan. Unbelievable. And Corey Marchesoto at ELF. Unbelievably. Talented. And these four people. And there are many more, of course. I mean, you look at the Forbes CMO list and you see them there, they're all there. But these four that come to mind at the moment, you know, they are brand leaders. They don't just steward these marks of ownership that have all these cognitive and effective associations to them, but they believe in what the brand is trying to achieve, what it stands for, how it sees the world, and they lead accordingly, they influence accordingly. And I see not only the work and what they do inside the organization, but I see the impact is having outside the organization in the marketplace. And you go like, this is. This is the benchmark. This is the gold standard of what greatness looks like.

[B]

David, let's bring you into the conversation.

[A]

Yeah, I think. Well, first of all, I think brands are pretty much more powerful than ever. But brand building has changed a lot. But I do think it takes a different set of skills now that that it did in the past. Having said that, Steve Jobs would thrive today, I think because one of the skills is innovation is more than more important. Disruptive innovation. I've done a lot of observing of categories and concluded that the only way to grow is with disruptive innovation. My brand's better than your brand just doesn't generate growth. So that means that there's a premium on those people that are able to adjust an organization that's set up in terms of personnel and processes to run a business really well. It's not set up for innovation to manage that and to also be able to take risk. I mean, the reason that Musk and Jobs are so good is because they were off the scale in terms of risk taking. Well, especially Musk. But they took these dramatic risks. And, you know, if you have 20 people taking risks, the top 10% of those are going to be really, really well. But anyway, innovation is more important ever. And actually, when I was observing books on innovation like Blue Ocean Strategy, they have a half a page on branding, half a page in the whole book, and Christensen has no pages in his books. And yet it's all about branding. You have to become the exemplar brand. You have to position the new innovation. You have to build barriers to competitors. You have to scale it. It's all. It's all branding. So anyway, that's one thing. And the other thing is that the, the communication environment now is so hostile. There's not only media cover, there's amazing information overload. There is rampant skepticism. There's audiences now in control. It's just A nightmare. I mean, the old days that Marcus can remember, you know, you, Whedon and Kennedy, all that brilliant stuff is not going to work today. Well, maybe some of it will, because if you have real breakout communication, that still works, but it's a different environment, which means that you need to do more than ever. You have to think about using humor, using stories, using emotion, which is an indirective way of telling your message, and it makes it harder to tell your message. I mean, there's a litany, there's a whole graveyard full of brands that had brilliant execution, that people can't remember what the brand was that was being advertised. But so you're. You have to live in that world, make that work. And a whole set of. Of ways to build your brand are coming up that, that we're kind of looked down on or put in the black burner or something. Things like sponsorships, things like events that, you know, events that you tag onto or events that you create, those things are now much more important than ever. And using those is not easy at all. So I think it's harder.

[D]

I think the skill sets to your point require are required. New skill sets are required. At its core, I think it really boils down to two things. Know thyself and know thy people. You know, if you know thyself, who you are, not what you do, how you see the world, then to your point, David, it's about going to preach the gospel. Now, the modality in which it's done has definitely changed, right? Definitely changed back in the day. You know, you just put on television, print out of home, and you just kind of let it go in many ways, right? You kind of buy your way in, but now you can't. You have to earn your way, your way in. So the stuff that you create hasn't. Doesn't require the media that you buy. It's about activating people who see the world similarly and go, oh, yeah, I'm going to use that and share with my people again, not because I love your brand, but because I love me and my people and it's an expression of who I am. Now you're leveraging the media people to propagate your message on your behalf, which requires new skills, no doubt. The other side of knowing thyself is knowing thy people who we're going after. So to your point, it's much more hostile environment than ever before, for sure. Politically charged, ideologically charged, all. All the things. Even more of a reason why markers have to say, I'm targeting these people, not Them. And we know that's like marketing, like rule, you know, number one, you can't target everybody. So you got to pick somebody. You got to say, this is my people. I'm going to segment the market based on some characteristics, and I'm going to target these people because these people are most likely to move. Well, when it comes to belief systems, ideologies, points of views that brands have, the people who are most likely to move are the people who see the world the way you do. And it requires having the courage to say, well, it's not for you. Like, if you don't like it, okay, it's not for you. And I think to the point we've been saying Steve Jobs, he would be the first person to say that today. Remember when the iPhone, they changed the casing for it and people were like holding it and it was dropping the call. They call it the, the drop gate or whatever they called it. And his response was, you're doing it wrong. You gotta love Steve for that. I mean, today he'd say if people were complaining about his advertising, about his marketing, about his brands, he'd be like, cool, it's not for you. Thank you.

[B]

This concept of brand as asset, which we talked about on the first episode of the show, the former CMO of AB and Bev on the show, he's written a lot of books about financial asset. Brand is financial asset. Could you both talk a little bit about what you've learned, observed about how to inculcate that thinking into a company culture? You know, because I talk to so many CMOs who, who tell me their CEOs, they don't believe in what they do. They don't really believe in brand.

[A]

I get that a lot. You know, we're in this demand marketing situation. How do I, how do I explain to people? But at the end of the day, the way that you demonstrate value to the brand is you just ask the simple question, okay, what is your strategy going forward? And what brand strength do you need to enable that strategy? That's the question. And when I wrote that first book, I put in about 15 ways brand equity can help business. And some of these are not obvious. Like, you take visibility, for example. Just the fact that it's visible gives it some credibility because people say, I don't know what the hell this brand does, but I've heard about it. Now if I heard about it, it's probably do it has some success in the marketplace. There's a study done on branded features, and people show it in a laboratory Experiment. If you brand a feature, people pay more money for it, even though they had no idea what that feature was. So that's 1 out of 15 ways brand equity can help. If you give them this list and say, pick out four or five that are really important in your world and use them to help people try to understand why they need brands and what kind of brand strength they need to make their business strategy work.

[D]

To me, this is where the scholarship becomes unbelievably valuable. Unfortunately, over the years, marketing has become advertising and brands have become logos and marks, unfortunately. So when people say, I mean, I hear this in the agency world all the time, they go, oh, that brand doesn't do any advertising. They go, well, what do you mean? They don't do any ads? But rather they say, don't do any marketing. And what they really mean to say is the brand doesn't do any advertising. They use this sort of interchangeable thing that marketing is advertising. It's not the, it's not the case. We go back to the literature, right? Marketing is going to market, right? Going to the people. I talk about this before the culture. Marketing is going to market, going to the people. And with what do we go to market? A product? Do we get that product away for free? No, there's usually some exchange, an exchange rate that we call price. And we get it to people through some pipeline that Jerome McCarthy called place. And then we communicated through promotions, the four Ps, product, price, place, promotion. I know it seems so, like, rudimentary. It seems so, you know, sort of surface level. But when we start thinking about marketing as that way marketing is going to market, we go, okay, well why do we go to market? What's the point of this? To get people to move, get people to adopt behavior. If you're the cfo, you go, great. People adopt behavior. That means money. If you're the CEO, you go, great. If people adopt behavior, that means money for us, which drives the stock market. Great. If marketing's job is to get people to adopt behavior, then it really puts more value in the seat that marketing holds in the C suite. And this for me is why culture is so unbelievably important to this equation, that there's no external force more influential to human behavior than culture, full stop. If culture drives behavior. This is why marketing in the cultural frame is so compelling. And one would say that you cannot, you cannot with, with, with any intellectual sort of honesty, talk about brand without talking about culture, because brands are vessels of meaning. And it's through our cultural Lenses that we translate the world and give things meaning. That's why for some a cow is leather, for others a deity. And for some it's dinner. Which one is it? It's all those things depending on who you are. That's how brands operate. Also these vessels of meaning that come with so much cognitive and effective value, the equity in which they hold. Right. So if you communicate marketing is that we go to market, get people to move, and getting people to move drives the business forward. I don't see how anyone the C suite goes. I don't know what that is or what's the real value in that.

[B]

All right, we got to wrap this beautiful conversation up, but I want to end with one question. And this is the final episode of the brand builders Playbook, episode 8. People who have listened or watched this for eight episodes are putting together their own playbook for themselves, for building up stronger brand of being a brand led leader. What's one thing you'd like to share with them in terms of a tip to get started to become a better, more effective brand led leader. Something to put into their own personal playbook.

[D]

For me, I would say that as we've been circling in this conversation, that the most powerful brands, they transcend the category in which they operate. They move beyond the value propositions and operate at an ideological level, a belief system that goes beyond the category in which they operate. So the question you have to ask yourself is, what do I believe? Simon Sinek brought forward the thinking of having a why. And I like that. I liked it a lot like the spirit of that. But it's not just words that we use. Can't just be communications. You have to like believe it religiously. Like I really, really, really believe this. We talked about Steve Jobs, we talked about Elon Musk. These guys really, really believed. Lauryn Hill said it best. How are you going to win if you ain't right within you got to know what you believe. And having a very clear belief system that becomes the thing that not only operates how you behave, the people that you hire, it inspires people and gets to David's earlier point about innovation. The challenge of innovation is that we often mistake innovation for invention. Inventions are new things. Innovation is new things that people value. How do I know what people value? It requires understanding who they are and being relevant for them. But you can't do that if you don't know who you are.

[B]

David, your turn to say amen.

[A]

Amen. Yeah, let me just. I have two things. Let me extend what Marcus said and that is that I really encourage people to start off by figuring out what are your brand pillars and the label for each of those pillars is so important. The consulting company I'm associated with, we'd spend five weeks with five people trying to get just the right labels. Because if you get the right label and it could become a tagline or something, it's so magic. It's just because it will do with the kinds of things markets is talking about. It's got to inspire, it's got to be intrigued, you got to be proud of it. It's got to be something you want to talk about. And it has to be differentiated. It just has to be different. If you're a business school and you need to talk how you're innovation oriented, you got to take your tack on innovation. It can't be just innovation. The second thing I would think is maybe a little more tactical, but the lowest hanging fruit I've ever seen is you go into a business and you say, what's your secret sauce? What are you really proud of here? And they can give you a three minute, brilliant, articulate, passionate description of what that secret sauce is. And then you stop and you pause for a moment, just let silence carry the day and say, why don't you brand that? And they think and they say, well, you know, I can't brand that. That's just a way we treat people. And I give a rattle off the three or four companies that have branded just that they have a way of treating people the HP way or something, and they branded it. You can brand that lowest hanging fruit. As I say, you find something that's important to you that's differentiating, that's resonating, brand it. And if it, if it's lying around with a brand but it's not activated, activate that brand.

[B]

Guys, what a conversation. I mean, I just. We should take a vacation together.

[D]

You name the place, Jim, we're there.

[A]

This was so.

[B]

I just feel like we're scratching the surface, honestly.

[A]

Yeah, I love talking about this stuff.

[B]

Thank you for your generosity, thank you for your kindness, thank you for your wit, your intelligence. This has just been so good, so helpful, so useful and so fun and I'd love to get this gang together in person somehow, some. Some way. I think that'd be a riot.

[D]

Yes, please. This is. I've been looking forward to this all day. So you all did not disappoint.

[C]

Thank you both for joining us. It's been a pleasure.

[A]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

Wow, Ryan, that was. We knew this would Be a good one. That was a really good one. What fun. We could have gone on for another hour. We've easily. We've had chatter about maybe we should do a special series with those two. Maybe bring in Kate. So what did you make of all that? I mean, what did you pull out as a couple? Key lessons, key pieces of learning.

[C]

I think the first one is that great brands don't just sell, they lead. And I loved how David talked sort about the evolution of brand building and how today we sort of we've had a relapse. We sort of got into short termism. It's all about today and clicks and last click attribution and getting people to buy right now and talking about the importance of or the importance of long term relationships. Even though you can quantify short and long term a brand. I also very much enjoyed the importance of culture as folks talk about measuring relevance and meaningfulness, something we do at Barra. How do you tap into that and the ability to navigate so many cultural headwinds and tailwinds. I thought it was fascinating to hear Marcus as an expert on culture, on the ways that brand builders can embrace that. And you have to be agile.

[B]

Anything you disagreed with in that dialogue? Ryan?

[C]

I think the long term only piece, as I probably mentioned in the beginning, Jim Brand absolutely has a short and long term contribution and we can measure it today and depending on your stakeholders, if you're the cmo, some companies need the short term sales over the long term and if folks think well it's just about short term, Brand could take a backseat. Absolutely wrong. You would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[B]

Now we've also had this tradition of sharing one thing that the audience should consider putting in their playbook. And it was always fun to have Kate and Lindsay join us for that. But it's just you and me today. So Ryan, I'll go, I'll follow you on this one. What's one thing from this amazing episode that you would recommend people consider putting in their playbook?

[C]

Well, as you see two folks who've published a lot, both Marcus and David, a lot of the fundamentals remain true today. But we have to evolve and I love that we have folks that have academic backgrounds rooted in a lot of research. So the ability to continue to measure and manage and maximize your brand to navigate the waters.

[B]

Yeah, I think for me it was just this whole notion of leadership. I mean that's what we talked about when we opened the show. The thing I would put in the playbook for the audience is what are you role modeling? You know, what questions do you ask? What do you show that you value? Are you leading first with your brand in mind, whether or not you're doing something short term and tactical or something more long term. So this one's very much about. Think about how you spend your time, what people are taking away from you as a leader because you are being watched. And when you're middle to upper in an organization, people watch everything you do. And how are you showing up as a leader and what are you role modeling? I think that's what I would think about putting in your playbook. So, Ryan, that's it for the series, the Brahm Builders Playbook. After all this time of thinking about it, we did it. And thanks to the audience for joining us. We really do hope this has been helpful. We spent a lot of time thinking about what is the modern playbook and what are the topics that we should explore. And I just want to thank you, Ryan, for partnering on this and your team, which, which are so talented. This wouldn't have been possible without your team. And I think this show, it's right for this time. It's the right time with the right topics for the marketing people out there who are doing their best to put things into the world that, that move their business and inspire their organization. So. So it's been a real pleasure. I hope it's been useful. And Ryan, I'll turn it over to you for the last word.

[C]

Yeah, Jim, absolutely. I love our friendship and our partnership, so really appreciate it. Looking forward to doing this again. I want to thank our viewers and our listeners. I think I've certainly learned a lot and the ability to have agile skills. So I think that there's a lot of practical lessons that folks, whether they're new or seasoned, can use to continue to put brand first. So thank you.

[B]

We also hope you found that the worksheets that we put out with each episode helpful. We thought, you know, podcasts and YouTube shows are great, but what do you have to take back to your team? So we hope the worksheet that we created helps you talk to your team about the learning in each episode and what you can apply to your brand and your business.

[C]

Absolutely, Jim. And folks, thank you already. For the folks who've already given comments on each episode, feel free to do so. And if there's any interest for future episodes or future topics or challenges that you have as a brand builder, please. We welcome the dialogue. But thank you again.

[B]

All right, on to season two. Thanks for listening. Listening to the Brand Builders Playbook, where we explore the real strategies behind resilient, revenue driving brands.

[C]

If today's conversation sparked new ideas or helped you see things differently, do us a favor. Follow the show on your favorite podcast app, leave a review and give us a like or rating.

[B]

It really helps others find the show and keeps our conversation going.

[C]

And if you know a brand leader or marketer who needs to hear this, share this episode with them. And don't forget to check out the worksheets in the show notes.

[B]

We'll be back next week with more insights, more playmakers, and more of what it takes to build brands that last.