The CMO Podcast — Brand Builder’s Playbook: “Smart Spend: Mastering Media Mix for Maximum Impact”

Guests: Damon Berger (GAP), Ryan Barker, Kate Lamberton
Host: Jim Stengel
Release Date: November 28, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of The CMO Podcast dives into the art and science of optimizing a brand’s marketing mix for maximum ROI, with a focus on media allocation, marketing mix modeling (MMM), and balancing brand building with performance marketing. Jim Stengel guides the conversation with Damon Berger, Head of Consumer Digital Engagement at Gap, along with regular co-hosts and marketing experts. Together, they unpack how leading brands like Gap thrive by using data-driven models, cultural relevance, and a strong sense of brand DNA.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Brand DNA and Resilience in Legacy Brands

[00:31–04:38]

• Kate Lamberton uses higher education as a case study to explore how legacy brands react to external pressures and the factors that keep their brand perceptions stable amid shifting contexts.
• Search data on higher ed institutions shows resilience despite political and economic challenges.
• Media mix in higher ed is evolving, with student voices and earned content now playing a larger role:

  “Our students are the ones creating the media... who owns what’s going on as there is with all earned media.” (Kate Lamberton, 04:23)

2. Playbooks in Practice: Subaru & Procter & Gamble

[04:48–08:17]

• Ryan Barker highlights Subaru’s effective micro-targeting and clear brand focus, creating strong emotional (dogs, family, outdoors) and rational appeals for their core audience.
• Jim Stengel shares how P&G pioneered cross-functional adoption of marketing ROI, becoming a role model in leveraging marketing mix modeling (MMM) and integrating AI for agile decision-making.
• Kate Lamberton: P&G’s scale and scope for experimentation are core strengths:

  “They do have the scope to experiment until they find the best answer… You can watch changes made in one brand translate into success across a set.” (Kate Lamberton, 07:43)

3. MMMs, ROI, and the Rebirth of Measurement

[08:17–18:34]

• MMM Defined:
  Kate explains MMM as the statistical modeling of product, price, place, and promotion to link marketing tactics to outcomes (e.g., sales), and notes its complexity.

  “It’s not completely not a fight club, Jim; we are trying to figure out what’s strongest and what’s going to win…” (Kate Lamberton, 09:04)

• She contrasts MMM with attribution and A/B testing, emphasizing each approach’s limitations.
• Brand Impact:
  Ryan underscores the multiplier effect: “Brand-led investment unlocks a multiplier effect on performance marketing…”
• Why MMM Matters Now:
  • Explosion of data enables more nuanced attribution beyond simple spend
  • Wall Street’s short-termism and pressure for provable ROI fuels the demand for MMM
  • Modern CMOs struggle to justify long-term brand building over easy-to-measure performance marketing

    “Performance marketing becomes crack...not realizing that brand is fueling this. If you cut this, the fuel goes away.” (Ryan Barker, 17:34)

• Doom Loop Warning:
  Over-relying on performance can create diminishing returns—a “doom loop”—if brand investment is neglected.

4. Gap’s Playbook: Reinvigoration & Cultural Relevance

[20:26–27:16]

• Damon Berger describes Gap’s turnaround strategy under CEO Richard Dixon as anchored in cultural relevance:

  “Relevance is revenue...connecting our brands to culture...that’s how we create relevant content experiences for our consumers on the right platforms at the right time.” (Damon Berger, 25:46)

• Gap’s new playbook is about rediscovering and modernizing brand DNA (e.g., connection to music, dance)—not just partnerships or short-term stunts.

5. Balancing the Mix: Brand, Performance, Content, and ROI

[27:16–35:10]

• Content Creation Over Advertising:
  Gap has shifted from traditional advertising to content creation, especially video, to organically drive cultural resonance and require less media overspend.

  “If the content isn’t there, it’s an overdrive for media and the media becomes less profitable.” (Damon Berger, 29:48)

• Explaining Value to CFOs:
  Performance marketing offers quick, linear returns that CFOs love, but brand investment is less immediately visible (the ‘squishy’ upper funnel). Damon advocates using data and proof points to gradually win internal buy-in.
• Culture of Curiosity:
  Under Dixon’s ‘What if? Why not?’ attitude, Gap fosters experimentation and “creative curiosity” alongside data, innovation, and continual self-disruption.

6. Making MMM Work in the Real World

[35:10–39:32]

• Using Data to Defend Brand Budgets:
  In tough times, MMM and data are key tools to negotiate budget cuts and prioritize spend.
• Welcoming (But Not Worshiping) MMM:
  Damon urges marketers to avoid letting models dictate 100% of the decision-making. Instead, integrate MMM alongside sales data, consumer insights, and cultural context.

  “These are just scorecards in a way to think about how we are doing with those consumers.” (Damon Berger, 38:03)

7. Audience Optimization & Platform Strategy

[39:32–41:23]

• Platform sophistication is leveraged for audience targeting (e.g., TikTok for younger consumers), mapped against Gap’s own CRM and web data to blend broad MMM guidance with tactical targeting.

8. Advice to Brand Leaders: Staying True to DNA

[41:23–44:11]

• Success comes from rediscovering, celebrating, and modernizing brand DNA.
• Gap’s re-engagement with its roots—music, dance, culture for Gap and adventure/discovery for Banana Republic—has resonated with both nostalgic customers and new generations.

  “Rediscovering the connections to music and dance and culture…what is so interesting about the reaction of what we’re seeing today.” (Damon Berger, 43:13)

9. Roundtable Reflections & Key Takeaways

[47:37–54:16]

• Brand isn’t “voodoo” when grounded in authentic DNA and supported by data.

  "People think brand feels like voodoo… But there’s no good reason for that…” (Kate Lamberton, 47:41)

• Metrics serve curiosity and learning, not just justification.
• Effective playbooks respect both emotional brand essence and statistical measurement.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On MMM and Brand Value:

• “Brand is still in 2025...feels a little bit like voodoo. There’s not a consensus in terms of how we think about scoring our brand health.” (Damon Berger, 00:01 & 23:28)
• “If we starve the upper [funnel], the lower actually starves too.” (Damon Berger, 24:20)

On Cultural Relevance:

• “Relevance is revenue.” (Damon Berger quoting CEO Richard Dixon, 25:46)
• “The BS meter for content creation is pretty sensitive…[Gap] can’t present itself in a way that clunks.” (Kate Lamberton, 47:39)

On the Playbook:

• “You have to stay true to what your brands are...going back to the DNA of why people love our brands in the first place, then celebrating it and modernizing it.” (Damon Berger, 41:49)

MMM as Scorecard, Not Straightjacket:

• “As long as you’re looking at [MMM] and other factors outside...it’s a tool in a broader tool chest for us, and very helpful to look at where we are.” (Damon Berger, 38:53)

Advice to Marketers:

• “Step one: understand your DNA. Step two: have those internal stakeholder conversations and bring metrics… Being able to measure this squishy stuff...and put it into the equation to get them to understand.” (Ryan Barker, 49:23)
• “Metrics-driven…curiosity-driven company.” (Kate Lamberton, 50:18)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:31] Brand resilience in higher ed – Kate Lamberton
• [04:48] Brand focus and playbooks (Subaru, P&G)
• [08:17] Defining and differentiating MMM, attribution, AB testing
• [13:25] Why MMM is resurgent
• [17:16] Brand vs. performance marketing “doom loop”
• [20:26] Introduction to Damon Berger (Gap)
• [25:46] Gap’s turnaround and “relevance is revenue” strategy
• [29:48] Content creation as core media investment
• [32:15] Building a culture at Gap that allows for MMM and innovation
• [33:26] Balancing and justifying brand vs. performance spend
• [35:10] Defending brand budgets in lean times
• [38:53] Tools, data, and cultural context in decision-making
• [41:49] Advice: Stay true to and modernize your brand’s DNA
• [47:41] “Brand isn’t voodoo” – Reflections on quantifying brand value

Summary Table: Host & Guest Roles

| Name | Role/Expertise | Perspective | |------------------|-----------------------------------------------|-------------------------------| | Jim Stengel | Host, Ex-P&G CMO | Brand-building frameworks, purpose, big company experience | | Ryan Barker | Co-host, marketer, MMM/ROI advocate | Data-driven, equity multipliers, “doom loop” risk | | Kate Lamberton | Co-host, academic, behavioral insights | Critical thinking, brand resilience, media complexity | | Damon Berger | Guest, Head of Consumer Digital at Gap | Hands-on practitioner, Gap’s turnaround and playbook insights |

Key Takeaways for Brand Builders

• Start with Brand DNA: Don’t lose sight of what makes your brand unique and loved. Authenticity outperforms fads.
• Cultural Relevance Drives Revenue: Connect to and create culture, not just campaigns.
• Integrate Brand & Performance: Treat brand and performance marketing as symbiotic, not either/or.
• Embrace Data, Don’t Be Ruled By It: Use MMM as a guide, not a dictator. Balance quantitative insights with creative intuition.
• Foster Internal Buy-In: Regularly involve internal stakeholders (CFOs, finance) and provide clear proof points for the long-term value of brand investment.
• Stay Curious: Make curiosity and experimentation central to your marketing culture—be eager to ask, “What if? Why not?”
• Optimize Allocation by Audience: Use modern platform tools for smarter audience targeting, informed—but not dictated—by MMM.
• Use Metrics for Learning, Not Just Defense: Quantification helps defend budgets but also surfaces insights to fuel success.

Closing Thought

“MMM begins with the consumer. It’s our way to understand if we’re making an impact… Be sure the model helps you build a better brand with the people you are seeking to attract.”
– Jim Stengel (53:38)

Whether you’re a CMO, marketer, or a leader refining your playbook, this episode reinforces that brand relevance, culture, creativity, and sophisticated data analytics all work together to drive resilient, high-performing brands.