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The CMO Podcast
The Future Legacy and Leadership Roundtable with Havas and NFL | Celebrating the AAF Hall of Fame
00:48:58
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Jim Stengel. I've helped hundreds of major brands discover and activate their purpose. Because when a brand's purpose is clear, compelling and authentic, profit naturally follows. Each week, I welcome the CMOs, the chief marketing officers of your favorite brands, to speak to how their job is so much more than marketing. These leaders share their inspiration and challenges along with how they try to build a full, healthy and happy life in and out of the office. And it's that energy that reaches everyone they touch. And we're glad you're here to feel that energy and to learn from these remarkable leaders. So here we go. This week, I want to take you back a few weeks to a really special morning in New York City at the headquarters of the agency group Havaas. A group from across the industry gathered ahead of us for a conversation around legacy and the future of leadership. It was a room filled with people who have shaped brands, businesses, and more importantly, each other for a change. I was not the moderator. Maggie Connors, the Chief Marketing Officer of the Havas Creative Network and a friend, moderated. I was on the other side of the microphone, joined by the CMO of the NFL, Tim Ellis. Tim is someone I deeply respect and was honored to be alongside him as part of the hall of fame class of 2026. What you will hear reflects the spirit and emotion of the hall of Fame annual event. We'll talk about the decisions that define a career, especially the ones that didn't feel obvious at the time. And the role of creativity and courage in building something that lasts beyond us. But more than anything, the conversation kept coming back to people. How you build teams, how you earn trust, how you show up for others in moments that matter. And how over time, those choices become the real measure of your legacy. Here's our in person conversation recorded in front of a packed house at Havas Hudson street offices.
- [02:04]
B
Good morning and welcome. I had to write notes because I was afraid I'd get emotional with Jim. Because those of you that know me, in events like this, when people are close to my heart, I often tear up. So I thought it was best if I had some cues here. So first of all, Jim, we're so proud of you. It's amazing. Tim, it's such an honor and it is so well deserved, but this is a special morning for us. I think this is almost more intimate than tomorrow night. Tomorrow night will be fantastic to recognize him, but to just recognize Jim with this group of people who care about him and we're all here together is amazing. And we all know what Jim has done, right? The impact he's had on the industry, on brands across the world, but most important, the impact he's had on people. And I want to share a story with you. So a couple of years ago, I was anointed. I don't know if it's good or bad. More responsibility within havas. And when I left Paris, I went to the airport, and I sat at the gate, and the first call I made was, jim, it's a true story. And I said, jim, I just got elevated. I need help from you. And he said, I'm here. He's grounded. He's honest. He gave me clarity, and he gave it to me straight. And he still does today. And he's helped me to be a better leader. But not only me, people across the world, he's done the same thing. For the impact he's had on people and leaders in this industry is, bar none. And it's absolutely fantastic what he's done for brands. I think that's your legacy, Jim. Thank you. Over to Maggie.
- [03:39]
C
All right, so this morning's topic is about legacy and leadership. And we all know that our world is changing drastically around us every moment, every day. Last year seems like 100 years ago. We are acting differently. We're connecting differently. We're getting together differently. Right. But when we think about the inductees for tomorrow night, and we think about what legacy really means, it's what Jim is expressing. It's what Tim is expressing. And it's really about what Donna said. It's about generosity. It's about when you pick up the phone and call Jim, he's there for you. So we're gonna dive into that, and I would like to invite Jim up, and I'm gonna ask him a handful of hot questions.
- [04:19]
A
Oh, good.
- [04:19]
C
So we can dive into this topic. Sound good?
- [04:21]
A
Sounds good.
- [04:22]
C
Okay, so first off, how do you feel about being in the same class as Barry Manilow? I mean, that's unbelievable.
- [04:28]
A
Yeah.
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C
Did you ever think that you would be with Barry Manilow?
- [04:31]
A
I mean, we were listening to some of his music the other night. I mean, I actually like a lot of it.
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C
Of course. The Copacabana.
- [04:37]
A
No, he's. That's great. He's amazing. He's resilient. And he's still performing.
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C
He's still performing?
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A
Yeah. What is he, 85?
- [04:43]
C
Yeah. Talk about legacy. Yeah. Talk about legacy. Well, it'll be interesting to see if he.
- [04:47]
A
And he got his start with us. Right.
- [04:49]
C
Talk about that. Which jingle was which jingle?
- [04:51]
A
Oh, with particular I think we're going to hear a bunch tomorrow.
- [04:53]
C
Fair enough.
- [04:54]
A
Fair enough. I'm sure he will. In fact, I am going to have a little trivia question tomorrow night for the audience, and it's a jingle from the 80s, and it's a really corny one. And I'm gonna stand if anyone can guess. And Barry might have written it.
- [05:07]
C
Oh, I like this.
- [05:08]
A
So we'll see.
- [05:08]
C
Okay, I might call him out on that. All right. Well, Jim, when we think about legacy, we think about teams and organizations such as ones that you've built and around leaving the world a bit better than we found it, Right. So when you think about your legacy, and you have so left the world, so much better than when you found it and continue to do so, what does the word legacy mean to you?
- [05:31]
A
I think it's everything Donna just said. I think it's the people that you meet that you put confidence in, that you help them figure out their work and their life, that you listen and that you, some small way, make a difference in their life. And that's why this award that Tim and I are sharing tomorrow is it's about your whole self. It's about the person you've been throughout your life. And to me, that's defined by, and I will say this tomorrow night, it's the people who you've been on this journey with. And so I'm very blessed, and I hope I have made a difference. And I guess I have, according to the letters. But it's about that, you know, you forget about the earnings and the quarters, and of course, all that's important in the moment. But the longer impact you have are the people that go on and do extraordinary things that they did not know they had the confidence to do. So to me, that's about parenting, that's about business leadership, and that's about legacy.
- [06:36]
C
So you were at P and G for 25 years. You also have been so involved in our industry, changing it at the Cannes line. I think P and G was the first company to be awarded a lion.
- [06:46]
A
Fact check, Steve, is that right?
- [06:47]
C
Right? Am I right? So what was that moment for you that you realized that that was your mission as a person, that you would put people first and your empathy first to be able to create all that success. What was the moment?
- [07:02]
A
I mean, I think it. I think it goes back a long way. Right. My dad said to me once when I was hanging out with the wrong kids that were, you know, smoking in the cornfield and, you know, drinking beer before, they're a Preteen, you know, just. I was hanging out with the wrong people. And he said to me he didn't impart that much advice. He was much more about leadership by example. And he was a very quiet man. And he said, son, you are defined by the people that you spend your time with.
- [07:37]
C
I love that.
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A
And I didn't think about it that much, but actually I did. And now there are a bunch of guys who I'm still close with. One of them will be there tomorrow night. We call ourselves the Alley Boys, because we all played in an alley together. I mean, I've known them since I was 4 years old, and we're still tight. We still get together. And they are a big part of who I am, and I'm a big part of who they are. So I think it goes back deeply. And, of course, PG was a consequential decision in my life to join them and to stay. Nobody joined P and G to stay in the marketing world. You joined to get the badge and move on. And, you know, who wanted to stay in Cincinnati? Who wanted to stay with this boring company? And I kind of got the bug. I kind of realized that this company was sincere about impact and human development and people first and teamwork. Michelle's in the room. Where are you? Yeah, I mean, it's real stuff. And I had a few mentors there, and they were always asking me about what I wanted to do next and where I thought I needed to develop and stretch. And I said, I want to go abroad. I want to go to developing markets. I want to go to an acquisition. They made it all happen. So that. That certainly was foundational. And a lot of stuff in my life wouldn't have happened without P and G. So I'm forever grateful about that. And they'll be there tomorrow night. I'm proud of that. And so not many friendships I've had from those days continue.
- [09:09]
C
We talked a little bit about Pampers, which is an example that you really love. So share with the crowd a little bit about what you really loved about that time on Pampers and the purpose that you put into that brand.
- [09:18]
A
Well, it was a transformational time in my career. I was working in the Czech Republic in Prague. The responsibility for all the company's business in two countries. I was the second general manager after the wall came down, so still very much. There weren't any retail chains. I mean, I helped a few come into the market, but I was plucked out of that job one night, frankly. And my boss called and said, come to the Frankfurt Airport tonight to meet in the Lufthansa lounge. And he said, you're moving to Frankfurt and you're taking Pampers Europe responsibility for that. A category job, if you will, in our language. He said, and it's a shithole. He said, we're losing. North America and Western Europe are fighting. The enemy's not inside. Kimberly Clark was just coming into Western Europe at the time, and they had great products, great team. And so he said, you're going to run. And so I started that job in Frankfurt. The first day in the job, I went to a focus group. It was brutal. And my team came to me and said, I think we have a different idea for what this brand should stand for and what this brand should be and what this brand should do. And we have to get out of the whole idea. The factory is the boss and to focus only on product superiority. How about the role we're playing in parents lives and babies lives? And what can we do more about that? What would it be like if we became a brand that had an emotional connection to people? Which, by the way, in Pampers, it wasn't the case back then, Shockingly so. That was. And there were some people who were on that team. Mathilde Delhomme, who's LVMH CMO now, and some people who were on that team that were courageous in that culture to say, we need to do business a different way. And I listened to them. I had their back. I said, we'll go to Cincinnati together and make the case. And I believe in you. And the brand went from about a $2.8 billion brand to a ten and a half billion dollar brand within a decade.
- [11:19]
C
That's amazing.
- [11:20]
A
To build a brand of that size in consumer products with that competitive set was a remarkable achievement by that team that got me promoted to cmo, there's no doubt. And because Lafleet at the time said, take the lesson from Pampers and take it to the other brands, that's kind of your mission. So very foundational experience for me on so many levels. And one of my favorite, I mean, many such creative work came out of Satya and Saatchi at that time based on that new purpose. And so it's a lesson on many levels.
- [11:51]
C
So leadership and legacy and purpose requires courage and risk. So that sounds like there was a lot of risk in that moment. Were you ever scared? Were you ever heading to Cincinnati with that team and thought, oh my gosh, this is not gonna work.
- [12:04]
A
I don't lose my cool. I don't lose my cool. Much. I lost my co trip to Cincinnati. We flew from Frankfurt. We all landed, I don't know, at 2:30 in the afternoon. We had a meeting with the management team at 4 o'. Clock. None of us went to the hotel, none of us showered. We all showed up, we walked into that room and basically my team was presenting the vision for the brand. We weren't even five minutes into the conversation when a couple senior leaders cut them off and said, this isn't how we do business. This is not what this brand stands for. This brand is about dryness, superiority, over and out. And I lost it. I went berserk and I took that guy down and I stormed out of the room and I took my team with me and I said, we'll be back tomorrow if you want to talk with an open mind, but if not, forget it.
- [12:59]
C
We're good for you.
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A
So I don't lose my coal much. I did it then. I was tired, I was angry and it was a good thing.
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C
But you knew the purpose of what you were trying. And I believed in it and you believed in it.
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A
There was not another way.
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C
There was not another way. And you fought for it no matter what would have happened.
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A
Absolutely sweet.
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C
How did it turn around? They said, we changed our mind.
- [13:20]
A
Kind of the most senior person. The people who kind of interrupted us were heads of a few different functions. Michelle wouldn't know what those functions are. And the most senior person in the room called me and said, come back in the office tomorrow and we'll start the conversation again. And that person went and left P and G to do amazing things too, by the way.
- [13:44]
C
But that's a testament to the trust and the relationships that you created around you that lifted you up and had your back.
- [13:50]
A
And by the way, he was in the room when all this happened and you know, a good leadership lesson. He didn't say anything. He let it happen. He let it unfold. And then he kind of, after the dust settled and the tempers were down, he said, let's talk.
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C
Picked his moment.
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A
Yep.
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C
That's amazing. So when you look around you, at your peers, other organizations, brands, who do you admire today? Who do you think has the drive for purpose like you do?
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A
Well, there's a lot of people tomorrow night in that room. I mean, I would say Tim Ellis right here, who I've gotten to know in the last year. He was on the podcast last fall. I don't know if I told you this. When Dawn Hudson was in the role, she called me and said, could you be a little Bit of a support for me to try to move the NFL to be more fan centric and those early seeds which you've taken and taken to a whole new level. But I think what has happened in the NFL is nothing short of extraordinary. This guy deserves and his team so much. I mean, it has been such a beacon of hope and love and excitement and passion for so many brands. So that's a person and an organization I've admired and I would say Acelston Bracey, who's not here today. I think she had something going on with the dress. Is that right?
- [15:07]
C
Yes, it was a dress.
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A
It was all the fancy. There are priorities. There are tomorrow.
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C
I get it.
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A
But I knew her when she was a rising star at pg very young and P and G saw the talent in her and elevated her. Not an easy place back then to be a black woman and frankly not even an easy place to be a white guy, but it was. But A.C. learned from it. She got through it and she's had a remarkable career since P and G. And I think she has touched so many brands. I mean, Dove gets a lot of energy in our industry and it should and it continues to. She wasn't complacent with Dove, so I think she's a remarkable person in so many ways. We'll hear more about her personal story tomorrow, which is incredible. So those are a few people I admire. Tim Armstrong's in the room. Who? Gosh, I met him. What were you? 17? But I mean, he was what employee number what? At Google. And reached out and said, I think we could help you at P and G. I mean, we didn't have any business with you. And I saw him in action as Google was a startup to what it is now. He had a transformational role there. He had the courage to leave Google and join Time Warner. AOL spun out. He had confidence and trust. We could do something remarkable with AOL and talk about a damaged brand. He put his own money into it, formed an amazing board, an amazing management team and it had a happy ending. So this guy takes risk, takes chances, believes in people. By the way, it's so good to be in a room with so many of you. So yeah, but I could go on and on and I want.
- [16:51]
C
I love it, love it. Okay, a few more. A few more. And then we have a special guest star. So today is different in how we work. Purpose has always been your foundation, as we've just discussed. Do you think it's harder today to be purposeful and in this new world and how we're evolving, and things are changing. Do you think it's harder to be purposeful?
- [17:08]
A
I think it's more important than ever. I think people want to find. I just did a podcast this week about hope. Hope has taken a beating.
- [17:16]
C
Yeah.
- [17:18]
A
And you were on that. And this. The brand, St. Jude's has all been about hope, and we talked about how hope has changed and how hope is shifting and how it's such a space for brands. So I think it's more important than ever. Our consistency in who we are as a person, who we are as a company is more important than ever. People are watching. They get it. We're in a challenging time, but they want us to be who we are. Integrity is more important than ever. We have a lack of integrity in so many leadership roles in the world now and in this country. So it's a time for businesses to realize their potential and to realize that we can make an enormous difference. And we are, in many ways. But we need to keep stretching, and we need to do the right thing. I mean, that's. Every senior P and G leader said to you, do the right thing. That's the principle. Let's not make it complicated. Do the right thing.
- [18:14]
C
Do the right thing. I love that. All right, let's invite our friend Tim Ellis to come up and join us. As we just talked about the NFL and the amazing work. Tim and I are Volkswagen owners, and I. But obviously, through Tim's career, he's had amazing success, and the NFL is a feat. So the same question I asked Jim, what is the definition of legacy for you?
- [18:37]
D
You know, listen, I. Well, first of all, I was writing furiously all the things Jim was saying because I'm going to be redoing my speech for tomorrow.
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A
You're not allowed to do that.
- [18:47]
D
No. I was an amazing, amazing visionary man here. I always think about the inspiration. Right. Like you're inspiring people. And I think what's most rewarding to me is I'm at an event or something, or I'm at some conference and somebody walks up to me and says, you know, that you may not remember that thing that you said in that meeting and that when we had this discussion or when I watched you when I was at the agency side and you were the client, it's changed my life, and it's changed the way I think about advertising and marketing, and that to me, you just realize the mentorship is incredibly important. I'm going to have to leave here in about 45 minutes. I'm going to go over to a Special event with Big Brothers, Big sisters. I'm a board member there. The reason I do that is because I believe so much into the mentorship and what it means. And so I always feel like, as I'm grappling for the right decisions and the right strategies and how to sort of inspire people to go the direction I think we should go in, I. I'm also thinking about there are people in that room who are listening very carefully. How do you handle that situation? How do you. What's your rationale? Like, I always. When I. When I, for example, I give my opinion on something, whether it be with my own team or whether it be with an agency, I'm always thinking about giving back to them so they understand why I'm making a decision. Right. So they say, or in. Or if I decide to go a different direction, I always go back to those folks and say, I made this decision. I know it wasn't maybe the thing that everybody here wanted to do, but here's why I did it. So you understand. So you don't feel like I just didn't listen to you or just went on and did something like that. So I think, you know, respect is obviously earned. Right. You have to earn it from not only your peers, but everyone around you. And if you're going to be a leader of teams, you have to really earn their respect and you have to inspire them. And I think my success is certainly, as Jim said, has, sure, it's been my instincts and believing in myself and believing in the things that I just felt and saw, but I also, you know, I built teams, right. I created teams, and these teams were incredibly talented, but they also were generous with the way that they worked and they wanted to help their colleagues and like, you know, that no asshole thing that people talk to that we all love. I don't care how talented you are, I want you to be on my team and to be a part of what we do. If you want to help others.
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C
Yes.
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D
Right. If you want to be generous with your time and your heart and your thoughts, then we'll together be stronger. Right.
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C
So anyway, and having that empathy and the generosity is so core to, I think, probably all of our success. And we can share many stories. So that generosity has come into the NFL brand as well, and what you've given out. So we were talking earlier about when you came into the NFL, it was going through a rocky time. So talk a little bit about that and that pivot that you made with the brand.
- [21:46]
D
Yeah, I mean, I laid it all out when the first time I. They had been looking for somebody for quite some time, I didn't realize that. When this recruiter told me that they were looking for their cmo, I almost grabbed him by the throat. I'm like, how come you didn't tell me that? Like this. What an amazing opportunity, right? Because I love the brand, but they were really struggling at the time. It was right after, you know, Colin Kaepernick and Kenny Stills and Eric Reed and so many others were making such important statements and trying to move the league in a direction that they were resistant. Right? And they had lost the trust of the players. They had lost the trust of a lot of their fan base. They definitely lost the trust of all of their brand ambassadors. So the entertainment industry and in particular, the music industry, they just sort of abandoned and alienated the NFL. And so, for me, it was important in order to earn that trust is to really work in an earnest way, in a genuine way with the players. And so I simply called it the helm of soft strategy. Nobody knows what they look like, obviously, from a pure, like, logical perspective, but also they don't know who they are as human beings. Right? And so we need to partner with the players and have them be the face of the league, which would provide a much more human, much more compassionate expression of the league. And obviously, it had to be real, you know, so I worked hard with the players to sort of help them build their own personal brands and to understand what things that they cared deeply about. And then I would get behind them. With the massive platform that the NFL is, I would get behind them in order to sort of help them be successful both on the field and off the field and by taking that approach. And, you know, we did a lot of other things, of course, by leaning into youth culture and, you know, sort of expanding the expression of culture not just from classic sports, but also into art and fashion and, you know, things that maybe were adjacency to the sport but not really embraced before, which just opened up the NFL to a different fan base. I focus religiously on girls and women. Flag football was part of that.
- [23:48]
C
Amazing.
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D
You probably all have seen the growth of flag over the last couple of years because it's the most inclusive expression of our sport, Right. And it sort of invited people in. I reached out in a very earnest way to the LGBTQ community, right. And sort of said, yeah, you're. You're part of our brand. You're part of our fan base. I did an ad after the first player who came out the active first active player who came out as gay. And the first line of the ad was, football is gay. And, man, when I showed that to the board, first of all, I didn't ask him. I didn't ask anybody's opinion or not opinion. I didn't ask anybody's permission to do it. I just created it. And I worked closely with our internal group, right, and together with the folks from GLAAD and just put the ad out there, right? Put it on tv. And, man, when I went into the boardroom, you could have heard a pin drop when they saw that ad.
- [24:43]
C
But you believed in.
- [24:44]
D
But believed in it. And guess what? It was incredibly meaningful to the LGBTQ community and our, you know, our engagement and the growth of that segment, which is pretty big. It's a pretty big segment, particularly for the Youth organization. Like 1 in 5, you know, youth from 12 to 24, identify with that community. Anyway, it was just. It was a. You could call it risky, you could call it provocative, but. And not everybody liked it. And I always try to remind people that you cannot really move forward if you're not willing to make some people uncomfortable. Right? And so, you know, and that's okay. It's okay. And guess what? We didn't lose any people. Like, they kept watching the next week, the ones who didn't like it. But anyway, so I think that having that level of openness when we came here, you know, adding humanity, building the trust of the players and of the ambassadors around the NFL has really helped us just continue to strengthen our base. And now that we've done it, I've been in the NFL now almost eight years, now that we've done it consistently, it's really made a difference over time, because in the beginning, no one's going to really trust you, right? If you've been behaving a certain way, it takes time to earn people's trust. It takes time to earn your fan base's trust. I also was very instrumental in the approach that we took after George Floyd in 2020, and the players were incredibly upset, and all these sort of mistakes from the past started coming up again, right? Racism and the inability to sort of connect with players and so forth. And so, you know, and it wasn't. And I felt deeply, it wasn't that the values weren't there. It wasn't like we were trying to create something that wasn't there. It was. It's just that they, up until that time, they weren't willing to say it. They weren't willing to sort of just be open about it and probably because it's controversial. Right. There's a lot of people politicize these things. And when I was there, I just said, we cannot think about this as a political discussion. We have to think of it as a human discussion. Right. And ultimately, that allowed us to sort of show a level of contrition and allow us to talk about things that we would have done differently had we had the chance to do it all over again, you know, and in the beginning, not everybody accepted that. There were a lot of journalists and there were a lot of people who thought it was bullshit. But over time and commitment and by using our platform as a force for good over time, we've really earned the trust of these folks, and it's made a big difference.
- [27:23]
C
And you've listened and whether it's listening to moms about Pampers or this.
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D
Yeah, I have a Pamper story, by the way.
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A
I want to hear it. But I want to add something to what Tim said there. He's talked about this before. I've heard him talk about. His vision was to make the NFL open and accepting of everyone and make it a big tent where everyone feels like they're at home. So the business reason for that was bring more people, young people, different kinds of people into the franchise, and you've done that. The brand has so many more fans, so many more people who feel like it's a league, it's a brand, there are people for them, and you've just opened the aperture. And for every brand, that's a lesson, and that's why this brand is healthy. Because of all these things that Tim was talking about are activations of a strategy to open up and bring more people in. And don't we all want that?
- [28:15]
C
Agreed.
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A
What's your Pamper story?
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D
And perceptions have never been higher, which I think, you know, the image, obviously, is a big. Is important. They want to engage with the NFL. So really quickly. So I was in Sweden for 12 years, working both on the agency side.
- [28:30]
A
He's got a great career path, by
- [28:32]
D
the way, both on the agency side and on the client side. And one of my favorite sort of campaigns and efforts that we did was actually for Libro. Do you know Libro?
- [28:39]
A
Yeah.
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D
Okay, so Libro is a Scandinavian brand. It was the only place, at least that's what they told me, whether I'm not sure if it was true or not. It was the only place in the world where actually we were winning against Procter and Gamble. Yeah, right. And the reason, which I love what you said the reason was, is, like, our strategy was very simple but very clear. People don't care about the blue liquid. They don't care about the. Really deep down, they don't care about the diaper. They care about their kids. Right. They care about the baby. And so all of our communication was just really around that, right, that focus of the healthy sort of relationship between parent and baby. And it was, I mean, lovely, lovely ads, but it really worked well.
- [29:23]
C
And all these are such amazing examples of legacy and leadership and leaving a lasting mark on everything that you touch. And both of you have done that in spades. So this room is filled with amazing leaders from brands and agencies and partners. So what advice do you have for these leaders as they move forward to retain a legacy and inspire leadership in their teams?
- [29:46]
D
You know, you asked a good question when you said, because, you know, we live in a divisive period right now, and we've lived in several over the last decades, but this is a particularly divisive period right now, I think. And I have noticed. I have noticed that a lot of brands have pulled back, right, because it's almost a sense of like, I'm going to, like, wait, you know, I'm going to, like, get. Once we get to the other end of this thing, then I'll come back out again. And I think that. And we see that, for example, when we look at all the ads that are on the super bowl and you pay a lot of money, as we all know, to like to put an ad in the super bowl. They were relatively tame, right? And they were not willing to sort of put themselves out there. And I think I've always felt that that's the time when you do lean in, right, when you can really show who you are and have the courage to sort of stick to your values and stick to your strategy. And again, that consistency is what actually builds brands over time. It is when you react, that's when people begin to doubt you, right? Because as we all know, brands are like people. And if you're like one way, one day, one way, the other, simply because you're reacting to what you see out there, people don't trust you. And so earning that trust and earning for like. So that's why nobody today even, like, when we go out with our full, what I call our force for good campaigns and PSAs and so forth, we don't really get any kind of blowback, right, because we've been doing it now for eight years.
- [31:12]
C
And they know you're.
- [31:13]
D
They know who we are. They know like, no, we've been doing this, so we're going to do it again because that's what we believe in. We see the impact. We help, not helps. Not only helps the individuals, it helps communities, it helps businesses. It has a positive impact overall of all of our lives. And by the way, it's also helping our brand be successful.
- [31:31]
A
I would touch on something Tim said when he first sat up here, and that is spend time, look at role models, and get really good at building excellent teams. You will not be a great leader without the skill to build an excellent team. And once you build it, to inspire it, to stretch it, to build the relationships, it's an art, it's a science. You will never get ahead without doing that, and you will never have a fulfilling career without doing that. And I mean, when Donna called me several years ago from the airport, that's the first thing we did. And we brought the team together. We had an off site here in New York. I still remember that. It's a massive highlight. But we, you know, we worked on getting the right team with the right purpose, the right goals, the right relationships. You know, I've been doing my podcast for what, eight years now. Analyze the data from 400 plus episodes. Building great teams is what makes a great CMO.
- [32:31]
C
It's all about the people.
- [32:32]
A
Yep. You want to say anything about that, man?
- [32:35]
D
I mean, you know how to say means everything. And I listen, I think that also allowing those teams and the individuals of those teams to shine, right, like, allow them to get out there and do their thing and like shine a light on them, it just makes you look stronger. You don't have to, like, try to get it, get in there and present their work or take credit for their work. They've done it. Let them shine. And that just because, you know, everyone, we all know this as leaders, right? If you don't, if you don't have a good sort of reputation or there's not a good feeling about you within the ranks, I mean, nothing works very well, right? So you want people to believe that. No, this person wants me to succeed. And I'm part of something that's really interesting and very successful and very inspirational. And so allowing people to actually shine and taking the time to know people. Like, one of the things I'm most proud of is that literally every level of my team or excellent. I mean, it wasn't like that when I first came there. And obviously I had to get the right leadership in place, but I could go through all the way down to the coordinators. Entry level coordinators and they're like stars. And they're all proud. Yeah. It's part of the image of them. Right. Of their team. And so, you know, whether we win awards and all that kind of stuff, it doesn't really matter. They know that they're part of an elite team and that's important to them. And obviously it helps with recruiting and, and, but also sustaining and keeping people there. So anyway, I just think I couldn't say more about what. I couldn't agree more with what you just said there, Jim.
- [34:14]
A
Add a nice perspective, nice color commentary, as you say in the NFL. So you have to ask him what he's wearing tomorrow.
- [34:20]
D
Oh, yes.
- [34:22]
C
What designer are you wearing tomorrow?
- [34:23]
D
I'm going tux.
- [34:24]
C
You're going tux?
- [34:25]
D
Yeah, I'm gonna go tux. I think it was a designer. It was a big decision, you know, like Armani.
- [34:30]
C
It's like the metal.
- [34:31]
D
You're have to wait.
- [34:31]
A
You've NFL logos? You're have NFL logos on it?
- [34:34]
D
No, no. But it is kind of a bummer because everybody, of course, all my peers and my boss, they're all gonna be in. They're all gonna be in Pittsburgh. But, you know, it's fine. I'll have some of my team, some of the folks I just talked about, they'll be there, which will actually be extra fun for them.
- [34:52]
C
That's great. Well, tomorrow night is going to be amazing. We can't wait to celebrate both of you. And thank you, Jim, for being such an amazing friend to Havas. We love you. I love you guys and you are our people, so. And thanks to everybody for joining this morning. And we're not going to break yet. We encourage everybody to talk about these topics at your table, have another cup of coffee, have another bagel, and talk about leadership and legacy. And also, most importantly, what creating these teams of real humans and people mean to our business moving forward. Because it is essential that we do that. It is not just about AI and technology and all the.
- [35:26]
A
You're a great moderator, You're a great guest. You're a great moderator.
- [35:29]
C
You're a great guest. You're a great guest. So thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [35:33]
A
Do we have time for any questions before we break up? Who has a question for anyone in the room?
- [35:37]
C
I think Shu had a hot burning question. He's always my plant. He's always my plant.
- [35:44]
E
I think what comes to mind, I was thinking, Jim, when you were speaking about the experience you had early in your career, the piece of advice I Got early on was. And perhaps I'm looking at P and G and it's in the brands as a potential career. But the person gave me advice still. Focus on the brand or the product that you'll work with. Focus on the leadership and team that you'll join. And I think here in your talk, it's less of a question, but I made sure. No question. But I'm inspired by the fact that the stories we're talking about, you could apply that to an underperforming brand, to a brand that's less appealing and make it really, really, in the words that we use now, desirable. And I think that's really, really exciting. So my question is this. Faced with employees who have many of which enter the workforce during COVID are oftentimes less apt to come into the office, less able to build those mentoring relationships that you all as senior leaders have provided. We couldn't do this breakfast remote if we were all on teams or zoom. That just wouldn't work. So how do we as leaders, any inspiration you might have for us, how do we better connect with employees early in their career to help them understand the benefit that we all had growing up and the mentorship that we got? How do we help them understand the value of that? So we're not forcing them to come to the office, but we're explaining to them in a way that they get that benefit that we all have. Because I don't think any of us would be here today if it were not for being around such great, inspiring people.
- [37:20]
A
I think it's a problem we haven't cracked yet. And I think we have to go to our people and get them involved in solving that with us because they want to be mentored, they want to be developed, they want to build relationships. And so, yeah, I mean, I've been a proponent of you got to give a business reason and a personal reason why people should come to the office. And I don't think we've made that case strongly enough. Too many people feel like we're forcing it and we're doing it for real reasons. And I think there are a lot of companies out there doing innovative work that have made coming to the office desirable, productive, interesting. So we could learn a lot from each other. I don't think there's enough shared on this right now, but there's no doubt in real time with each other. I wouldn't be the leader I am without sitting in meetings at P and G and watching how people behaved. 100% observation. And thankfully, that company was okay. With putting different people in the room just so they could watch. And so I think it's so, so important.
- [38:26]
D
Yeah, I think the human bonds are incredibly important. And, you know, we're also in a creative field. So creativity is not just what you say, it's how you say it, how you feel. You know, there's lots of things that you kind of come to nonverbal communication that you just don't get if you're looking at a screen. And by the way, we don't have a problem with forcing people. You know what I mean? Like we just said at the NFL. No, we believe in collaboration. We believe in sort of personal intimacy when we work together. So I know it's not popular, but we're all going to go back to the office and we're going to work five days a week like we did before the pandemic. And on top of that, like, you know, for whatever reasons, now that we all start using zoom, every so often, people are, like, sitting in their office on the zoom, zooming into a room which is down the hall. I'm like, dude, what are you doing? Get your butt out of here. Get in here. So, like, I demand it. I mean, I, you know, force. This sounds like a terrible word, but, like, I just demand it. I mean, and so does. So does Roger Goodell. And it's worked for us. Sure, there was a few people who didn't like it. There's a few people who left because they wanted more freedom, and I get that. But, like, we try to just to be responsible and be adults and say, okay, if you need to. If your pipes are broken at home, take care of it. If your dog has got to go to the vet, fine, whatever. We're all adults here. Do your work. But we believe in working together, and I think that's very, very important. The other thing I would say is, like, I know a lot of people in here from the agency world, too. I think agencies should be working together more. I worked at an agency for a long time. I know what it's like to sit in a room and banter back and forth on important creative ideas, important strategies and so forth. It's better when you're together. It is. And so I actually know our core agency of record for most of our big brand work, 72 and Sunny. I just told the guys that, you guys, I want you to work together as your client. I really want you to get together when you work on our business. If you don't want to work on somebody else's business, that's fine. But when you're working on our business, I really would appreciate if you guys would work together inside, because I know that's important. And I also go out to LA to see those guys and I sit down with them. Not every meeting, right? But of course not. You have to be efficient. But at the same time, you know, working with your agency and having the right discussions, being open, being collaborative, you know, I always describe the relationship I have with my agencies and my team. Like a big family dinner, right? Like you're all debating stuff and going back and forth. But, you know, you don't cross the line. You're careful because you're close. You don't cross the line. You don't become that close if you don't actually know each other. If you only know somebody from a screen, you're never going to have that level of intimacy and that bond that you have.
- [41:16]
C
Agreed. Carol, you had a question?
- [41:18]
F
Yeah, I was just reflecting on all of the comments about leadership and building great teams and having excellent teams and leaders at every single level of New Orleans. And I would say one of the biggest challenges, when you are at elite organizations like yourself, this becomes a bit. Not easier, but the ability to attract, recruit, retain. Those systems are in place. When you're in organizations that maybe don't have the same above AE have a mixed bag of talent. How do you think about building, reshaping and restructuring? You have your own team, but it's also across the entire organization that might not be on the same level of high performance or generosity or whatever. And there's mixed kind of elements. How do you take some of those, learn lessons and apply them when you don't have that same level of, kind of consistency of work ethic or even kind of. The inputs are all different.
- [42:16]
A
I just. I'll reflect on one habit I had that always worked for me and that was every time I had a change in position at P and G and I keep this principle. I would interview everyone that I worked with, sort of the other leaders in the other functions, and ask them, what can I do for you to help you achieve your goals and what do you think I should do in my role? That might be 10, 15 people I talk to. It's an investment of time. You have to do it sort of early, but unreal how that changed the spirit of the room and people got vulnerable, were honest and so. And I just would go back and collate that information. And that was my agenda. And the relationships were built like that. So I would try and that Helped the other functions. If they had a weak organization or they had issues, they would tell me, maybe not that first meeting, but they would eventually tell me because they knew I was interested and I cared what was important to them.
- [43:19]
C
And what both of you have talked about and what that question brings up is the time that oftentimes it is doing a little bit extra, asking that extra question, listening a little bit differently, that does make all the difference.
- [43:30]
D
Yeah. I mean, the most productive, happier people, they all have a very strong internal culture. Right. And you don't. Some, you know, some teams, they like to write it out and everything, which is fine, but. But, like, you don't have to do that either. Like, you feel it, you know, it. What's the culture here? And obviously, leadership is important, but, like, I always remind my teams, like, you know, we spend a lot of time working, right? You spend a lot of time at the office. It's a big part of your life, Right? So we have to create. Yeah, it's always going to be challenging. We should challenge each other. But we have to create a place where everyone feels at home and they feel safe and they feel like, oh, this is fun. Like, you know, we're tackling shit, but this is fun. And that's the kind of culture you want to build. And you can build a culture inside your own building, even if the broader culture is necessarily not exactly how you feel like you want to build the culture of your team or your department. And that's what I do. Of course, we want to be a part of the broader culture at the NFL, but the marketing team has its own culture as well, which fits very nicely, by the way. And I think, you know, I think that's very important. We also have a very simple thing on how we kind of assess our employees. Like, are they a culture carrier? Like, do they. You know what I mean? Do they help push forward the culture in a positive way? And that. We think that's very important.
- [44:49]
C
I love that.
- [44:50]
A
What's the opposite of a culture carrier?
- [44:52]
B
Culture killer.
- [44:53]
D
You know, there's a lot of culture killer. There's actually a lot of studies on that. There's studies that show that you would, as a company, you would be better off by having those folks who aren't stay home and not work at all. And I don't mean stay home, not being in the office. I mean literally not work at all than to. You know what I'm saying? Like, because it's poisonous, right? If somebody. I don't care how talented you are, if you're not. If you don't sort of. If you don't help the culture be more positive and, you know, let's just say it, you're negative, then that actually is a real detriment to the entire group.
- [45:27]
C
Well, I'm gonna ask one last question to both of you. Cause I wouldn't be me if I didn't ask you a hot take. So what is your. I'm thinking of the draft and I'm thinking of the gala tomorrow night. What is your walk on song, Tim?
- [45:38]
D
Oh, she's trying to get all the secrets here.
- [45:41]
A
Previews. Previews. How many are coming tomorrow night? Just to. Yeah, yeah. Decent.
- [45:46]
D
That's great. Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you. So it's kind of fun and personal for me because. Well, I'll say this. Some of you may have read somewhere that I was at a big conference the ana and somebody asked me a question about Bad Bunny. And I was overly explicit in my views on Bad Bunny, which was very positive. But then the New York Times wrote a headline and then it just exploded because I said, bad Bunny is effing awesome. And so tomorrow night, I'm gonna have a Bad Bunny song.
- [46:21]
C
Nice.
- [46:23]
A
Well done.
- [46:24]
C
Well done. Lean right into it. Lean.
- [46:26]
D
Coffee in the morning, rum at night.
- [46:30]
C
What about you, Tim?
- [46:31]
A
That's so good. That's so good. Mine's a little bit more complicated. A key decision of my life was to go to business school at Penn State. I had no money. I was a journalist. I got a full ride there. I went and there's someone in the admissions office who said, I think you're a good match for P and G. So one thing led to another. I didn't get a job first as an intern, but I got a full time job. So I went to P and G from Penn State. And in the first, in my second year, I met my wife, who is a first year MBA from California. Everyone was buzzing about her. And I met her in the mailroom. We had a mail room back then. And I fell in love instantly. And I proposed in three months. And so we've been close to Penn State. It's been a philanthropy of ours on a couple levels. So I called Penn State and I said, you have to be a part of this. And they said, let's send the blue band.
- [47:35]
C
Oh, my gosh.
- [47:36]
A
So we went to the AAF and we said, how about a marching band to introduce me?
- [47:40]
C
Oh, my God.
- [47:41]
A
You know, they're in now, the marching bands. Right?
- [47:43]
C
That's amazing.
- [47:44]
A
And they were game.
- [47:45]
D
Oh, my God. This is amazing.
- [47:46]
A
So the AF goes, you know, I don't think we can fit them on the stage, and so on and so forth. And I said, yeah, but you know, they get. Everyone said, maybe we should be after intermission because it's hard to get everyone back at their tables. So he said, no. So creative problem solving. We said, how do we recreate that same feeling? And that blue band says, we'll make
- [48:05]
D
a video for you.
- [48:06]
C
Oh, this is so great.
- [48:08]
A
So there's a pep video of a blue band for my walk up song.
- [48:13]
C
Amazing.
- [48:14]
A
And they're playing the classic Penn State song, which, if you're a Penn Stater, you would know it.
- [48:18]
C
Oh, so good. So you and so you.
- [48:21]
D
I wish they would have had the live band, though. That would have been.
- [48:23]
C
I know, I know, I know. It would have been epic.
- [48:26]
A
Yeah.
- [48:26]
C
All right, well, thank you. Thank you.
- [48:28]
A
Well, thank you, everyone.
- [48:30]
C
Please drop them on the screen.
- [48:31]
A
So fun. Thanks. Yeah. Fantastic. That's it for this week's episode of the CMO podcast. As always, I would be grateful if you shared our show with your friends, along with subscribing and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. The CMO podcast is a Vive original production.