Brian Miller (Coach Approach Ministries) sits down with Brent Sleasman (Winebrenner Seminary) to unpack a hard reality: important kingdom-focused organizations are disappearing—not because the mission isn't needed, but because leaders fail to see the bigger picture and adapt to a changed world. They explore how "little-kingdom thinking," nostalgia-driven decision-making, and fear of loss keep leaders stuck. The conversation lands on two mindset shifts—moving from deconstruction to construction, and from craving certainty to practicing curiosity—plus a practical lifeline: partnership and collaboration before it's too late.

Big ideas & key takeaways 1) "Important organizations" can fail while the Kingdom doesn't

Brent defines "important" as organizations advancing Jesus' kingdom mission—raising up and equipping workers. Some fail by closing completely; others "survive" by being absorbed and losing autonomy and original mission.

2) The "bigger perspective" starts with Kingdom clarity

Brent's core framework:

One King
One Kingdom
One Kingdom mission

When organizations obsess over their own mission/brand distinctiveness and neglect the larger kingdom mission, they drift into "my little kingdom" thinking—and conflict with reality eventually wins.

3) Nonprofits get a weird superpower: they can ignore financial reality longer

Because they're not serving shareholders or chasing profit, they can keep doing what "worked for my grandparents"… right up until the day they can't pay staff.

4) Leaders are loss-averse, so change feels like dying

Brent names the psychology: we overweight what we might lose versus what we might gain. So even small workflow changes (a new system, new dashboard, a meeting rhythm) can get treated like a spiritual crisis.

5) Two mindset shifts for a VUCA world

Brent's two shifts:

Deconstruction → Construction (Jeremiah language: don't only tear down/uproot; also build and plant.)
Certainty → Curiosity/comfort with uncertainty (the world is volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous—so "certainty" as a leadership strategy is basically a fossil.)

6) The practical rescue move: partnership

Brent's blunt claim: organizations that failed had ready partners available, but didn't take the humility step early enough. If you think no partner exists, his response is essentially: test that—then admit you're wrong.

7) Before you "shut it down well," try one more creative loop

He points to tools/resources (Business Model Canvas, The Startup Way, books/podcasts) to spark fresh thinking before leaders get enchanted with the shutdown process.

Standout quotes (clean and punchy)

"There's one king, one kingdom, one kingdom mission."
"People would rather the church close than change the color of the carpet."
"Nobody likes the person at a party that's constantly pointing out everything wrong."
"You're going to feel worse about what you lose than what you gain—until you do it."
"There were ready partners."

Light outline (great for show notes)

00:00–01:35 Setup: "Human-to-human connection will matter more" + the bigger claim: orgs failing due to lack of perspective
01:36–04:31 What "important" means; what "failure" means (closure vs. absorption)
04:32–09:30 Bigger perspective = Kingdom-first clarity (Matthew 28; "one king…")
09:31–15:06 Why orgs get stuck: nostalgia, purity mindset, resistance to change, delayed financial consequences
15:07–20:07 Helping leaders embody mission; fear/loss aversion; journeying together
20:08–26:18 Mindset shifts: constructive thinking + comfort with uncertainty; VUCA
26:19–32:17 Direct advice: partnership/collaboration + use tools/resources to spur creativity; closing encouragement + CAM CTA

Practical application prompts (for leaders listening)

Where are we protecting our identity more than we're advancing the Kingdom mission?
What's one change we keep calling "impossible" that is actually just "uncomfortable"?
Who are the "ready partners" we've avoided because partnership would require humility?
What decision are we delaying until "certainty" arrives (spoiler: it's not arriving)?
What are we building and planting right now—not just critiquing?

Links / resources mentioned (no links given in audio)

Michael Porter, Competitive Advantage
Business Model Canvas
Eric Ries, The Startup Way
VUCA (Volatile, Uncertain, Complex, Ambiguous)
Scriptural references/inferences: Matthew 28 (Great Commission), "harvest is plentiful/workers few," Jeremiah (tear down/uproot vs build/plant), "gates of hell shall not prevail"

How to Lead When Certainty is Gone with Brent Sleasman