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- [00:00]
A
It is June, which means it's halfway through 2025. So in this episode, Colin and I are going to be breaking down three trends we're seeing in the creator economy, all leading up to our first big event, Press Publish NYC, coming to Brooklyn on September 4th.
- [00:16]
B
Colin, that's Press Publish NYC, September 4th in Brooklyn. You're going to get all the details in this episode. Samir and I are going to be there. We hope to see you there as well.
- [00:25]
A
All right, if you guys make it to the deep end of this episode, let us know. All right, so I said this to you before we started, but I really do feel like the creator economy is at cruising altitude.
- [00:41]
B
Explain that.
- [00:42]
A
It just feels like there's no longer these, like, major pop moments in our industry. And that used to happen a lot with, like, this company raised X millions of dollars to enter the creator economy. This creator launched X Business or did X deal, you know, or even this creator reached some insane milestone. Obviously. One of the most recent ones that. That happened this week is Mr. Beast crossed 400 million subscribers, which is more people than live in the United States of America. That's a massive number. He's the largest channel on YouTube. But a lot of this stuff just feels like, yeah, that's big. But it's almost as expected now. Like, our industry is just humming. Does it feel like that to you?
- [01:25]
B
Yeah, I feel like at the high end and even the lesser known, maybe middle tier, there are so many creators who are launching new businesses, reaching new milestones, things that would be news and noteworthy, especially for us three or four years ago.
- [01:39]
A
Yeah.
- [01:40]
B
That maybe would warrant an entire episode.
- [01:42]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [01:44]
B
That just feel like they're whizzing past us left and right.
- [01:46]
A
Yeah, I think that's what I mean. It's just like, all right, the industry is just humming along now, and, like, it's tough to know what the story is. I feel like there's been some definitive moments, and we're going to talk about some of those in. In this episode. But just to. Just to stay on the Jimmy thing, real quick, I wanted you to read just that, like, 400 million subscriber marker every year on his birthday, Jimmy releases, like, where he was at in terms of viewership. Yeah. And so his birthday's, like, in early May, and so he did that recently. And you pulled some stats around what this means. So just to contextualize his size and scope and his journey, I think it's kind of interesting.
- [02:21]
B
Yeah. So from ages 12 to 16 in total, he got under 400,000 views.
- [02:27]
A
So wait, 12 to 16. So four years.
- [02:30]
B
Four years under 400,000 views. This is early on in his career. Now, that level of time, that amount of time represents 30% of his YouTube career timeline. So 30% of his YouTube career timeline, but less than 0.0003% of his lifetime views.
- [02:53]
A
Wow.
- [02:54]
B
So just shows essentially the amount of like, grit and determination you have to have. The fact that four years of your journey, which is 30% now of the overall experience, can represent such a small, minuscule amount of viewership.
- [03:13]
A
Yeah. I think a lot of creators ask me, like, when they're about to start out, or maybe people who are interested in starting a YouTube channel right now. Oftentimes I say to them, like, do you have three to five years? Meaning do you have three to five years where you're okay that this doesn't work?
- [03:29]
B
And do you like what you're doing enough to speak to what feels like no one at times for three to five years? Yeah. Because it starts off feeling like a lot of people. Even if you get 50 views, your first video, or a thousand, it feels like, oh my gosh, everyone's watching.
- [03:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. And.
- [03:43]
B
And everyone's in the comments. But then you go through years worth where it doesn't really increase and you're feeling that, oof, like, do I really like doing this?
- [03:53]
A
Yeah. I also think that that stat is also why it feels like we're at cruising altitude a bit right now. Because those moments, you know, 10 and five years ago, there was these things that were undiscovered, that were becoming discovered, and there was like explosive moments happening of exponential growth. And I think it's. It's just, it's so normalized at this point, what's happening. So let's talk about some of these trends that we're seeing. We're midway through the year again, like we mentioned, these are trends that we're going to discuss at our event on September 4th in New York City, Press Publish NYC. We went to go visit that venue last month. What do you think about that? Overwhelming. Yeah.
- [04:32]
B
Overwhelmingly beautiful. Honestly, the venue in Brooklyn is right on the water. It is so cool. I can't believe that we are at a point where we're going to be gathering people. Normally we go to other people's events.
- [04:42]
A
Yeah.
- [04:43]
B
So I'm so excited about how beautiful this venue is, and I am also very overwhelmed.
- [04:50]
A
Yeah, I would say, like, scared is the. Probably the first emotion. Like, it's like a little scared of, oh my God. Putting on an event is is wild.
- [04:57]
B
I just have like Fire Fest running through my head. I'm like, just don't be Fire Fest.
- [05:01]
A
Yeah, I don't, I don't think we're gonna. I don't think we're promising what Firefest promised.
- [05:05]
B
No, man. You think Fyre Fest thought it was gonna be Fyre Fest?
- [05:07]
A
Yeah, I think, I think Fyre Fest was gon fest no matter what they over promised.
- [05:12]
B
When he made those marketing videos of like models on the beach, he was like, I'm gonna deliver.
- [05:17]
A
So you think, do you think we, we are at like at a threat of becoming Firefest Threat level Fire Fest?
- [05:24]
B
No, I don't, I don't. But I, I do have nightmares.
- [05:27]
A
Yeah, same same. I mean it's terrifying to put on an event where like people actually show up or they have to take out their credit card to buy a ticket. Where they like, you know, are where they're gonna judge the experience. We're gonna have speakers where we're gonna have like breakouts. We're gon. Conceptually you can think about the day of. You're just like, you know, I believe in live experiences right now wholeheartedly. I believe in events. We've seen like such an amazing just experience through our Coffee with Creator series, which is like in the hundreds of people but obviously tangibly different. Those are free to come to this cost money to come to. This is going to be 400 plus people. So it's a very different experience.
- [06:07]
B
But what gives me solace is the fact that we are curating the group of people who are going to be there, which is the same thing we do for our Coffee with Creators events. And through curation we're able to make sure that the right connections happen and people have people find value in the people that are there.
- [06:25]
A
Yeah, I think for me like the most value I find from going to an event is meeting someone and I'm honoring that in us developing the programming. And then the other is like you want to walk away, I think feeling like you know more about this industry and more about your job either as a creator or someone who works with creators. I think that's why we've shaped these three trends that we want to focus on. Because I truly believe these are the three trends that matter the most in the space now, just from a like logistics and timing perspective. I think by the time you're listening to this, most likely the website is up where you can buy a ticket to press publish nyc.
- [07:02]
B
If you're listening on Wednesday, you've been.
- [07:04]
A
More focused on the website than me. So I don't.
- [07:05]
B
So if you're listening on Wednesday, then.
- [07:06]
A
Yes, then it's already up.
- [07:07]
B
Yeah.
- [07:08]
A
That's crazy.
- [07:08]
B
Yeah.
- [07:09]
A
And so how this is going to work is you're you, you actually apply to buy a ticket and then, you know, we will accept you or, or, or not. Mainly based on our curation of the event. Making sure that like everyone who gets to come is, can provide value to each other.
- [07:29]
B
Yeah. Is it going to be a mix of people who can complement each other? Meaning it could be creators, it can be operators, it can be people in the industry, it can be creator team members. It's just making sure that we're forging the right connections.
- [07:41]
A
Yeah. And that feels really important to me that like, these are all puzzle pieces that fit together and that you go in and you're like, oh, wow, this is a high quality group of people in our industry that I get to be with for these, these like hours that I'm with them on this day. So it's going to be really fun. The programming is coming together really well. But let's talk through these trends. So the first trend that we're seeing is around brands. Now I say this like in two ways. I think brands are becoming creators and creators are becoming brands. So a couple of things were happening. Number one, we're seeing an uptick in brand spend across creators. Now, when we talked about this in the newsletter, we actually got some pushback. Someone tweeted and said, like, do you guys really think that's happening? Are you really seeing that? I think it's a, it's a good question to, to answer, at least from our vantage point, because we're on the receiving end of a lot of this. My short answer would be, I think we're seeing lower rates than we used to see from brands and way more brands involved. But that to me is a more sustainable, healthy industry. If there's more brands and the rates are hopefully hitting a point where they're actually like seeing roi, the reality is.
- [09:00]
B
Everyone'S experience is going to be a bit different because everyone is in a different niche. Yeah, of course, some niches have a lot different brand creator sort of environment. Right. If it's a niche where a lot of brands are all of a sudden coming in and these brands are well funded brands, they have big marketing budgets, then yeah, you're going to see a lot of creat who have a lot of opportunity and are seeing an increase in spend.
- [09:24]
A
So a tangible example is Unilever has a new CEO and he's, he's young, he's in his 30s, and he wants to up their creator spend working directly with creators from 30% of their marketing budget to 50% of their total marketing budget. I think that's going to be common amongst brands. But that doesn't mean that each individual creator will get more money. It just means more creators will get money. Yeah, right. More creators will do deals. Because I think the reality is even when someone says, like, do you really think that's happening most likely right now that's happening across short form content. It's not necessarily happening across long form content. I think long form you mean where.
- [10:00]
B
Rates are going down, but more creators are experiencing an increase in opportunities.
- [10:05]
A
Yes, I think that is happening at scale and short form content. I think the challenge with long form content is it's expensive and it's, it's hard to fit into a schedule with creators. And there's only a handful of creators who can drive real results in long form content. And long form content, I think is much more about association and awareness than it is about direct conversion. And when you get brands like Unilever or start to get more brands entering in the space, they're going to peg it against conversion. So when they get to do a short form ad with you, they also get to run it as a paid ad, most likely. So they actually have more control over that asset. They're essentially working with you as like a creative agency to make an ad. You get some distribution, they get some awareness and association, then they get to use that asset in a way that they've tested and that makes sense.
- [10:54]
B
So that's part of what we're going to be talking about is creators and brands working together, brands investing in creators. On the other side of it, we have brands thinking and operating like creators and doing some pretty interesting things. We covered this in the newsletter. ULTA has a program now where it's retail associates can get paid as creators.
- [11:15]
A
So Ulta Beauty, this is one of the largest, if not maybe the largest next to Sephora makeup retailers in the world. And so, yeah, exactly. It's like essentially saying UGC works. People want to buy from other people, right? They want to, they want to trust someone who looks like them or someone who, and I'm not saying looks like them from a demographic perspective, I'm just saying like someone who talks into a phone. Like, it just feels more real. And so ULTA is going, hey, you know what? We have a bunch of employees who are around our product all day and.
- [11:43]
B
Incredibly well versed and already got guiding people on their experience when they come into the store.
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A
Right.
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B
What better place to start from?
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A
Especially because they can put paid spend behind it too.
- [11:53]
B
Yeah.
- [11:54]
A
But they're incentivizing their employees to become creators.
- [11:58]
B
Yeah. So Ulta Beauty is its own studio now where it is bringing in talent who is working with people, advising them, but eventually could get so well versed in content creation and so big that they leave the system. Right.
- [12:13]
A
Yeah.
- [12:13]
B
Where it's almost like an accelerator. Like Ulta Beauty stores getting a job in retail, which was always seen as kind of like the end of the road. Honestly, like getting a job in retail was not seen as like really the way to like level up. Sort of like a transitional job.
- [12:27]
A
Sure.
- [12:27]
B
But it actually could now be a way to transition as a creator.
- [12:32]
A
To become a creator. Yeah, I think, I think this is going to happen a lot more. I think it makes a ton of sense. Like of course, if I was, you know, maybe looking at marketing from like Starbucks or marketing at Dunkin, I know they've done it before too, but like I would absolutely incentivize my employees to create. It's not even a question. And figure out like some type of incentive based bonus program to create while you're on the job. Like that. That sounds. That feels so obvious. And it'll probably happen. So that's like brands becoming studios. Obviously we have other versions of that. Like Red Bull. Red Bull's the most notable on YouTube, specifically brand that has become a content studio. And I say that as like become a content studio. They've always been a content studio. Red Bull Media House has existed forever.
- [13:19]
B
Entertainment has always been a part of their growth strategy.
- [13:21]
A
They've had Red Bull TV like they are. They've. They've. They're one of the legacy brands that understood that entertainment matters to them. But they've done an exceptional job on YouTube where they're developing like series and.
- [13:32]
B
Yeah, they're F1 versus series where they have an F1 driver traditionally driving something bizarre like a golf cart or something. Right. They have this whole series of like putting F1 drivers in strange and interesting situations. That series, I'm pretty sure at this point I wrote it in the newsletter. Averages over 6 million views an episode.
- [13:51]
A
Yeah, over 6 million. So that is how that's a hit show. Yeah, that's not just a show. Like, that's like one of the most popular shows. If that was on tv, that would be like a. Or a streaming service. That'd be like an unbelievably popular show. And then you have, you have brands like Liquid Death. Right. Who feel like a creator in our universe. Like they have their own character traits, they have their own way. Like they do very bizarre things.
- [14:15]
B
I mean, as an example.
- [14:16]
A
Yeah, right.
- [14:17]
B
They gave creators the opportunity to go up in a fighter jet and film the moment that you either like pass out or throw up.
- [14:29]
A
Yeah, I don't know.
- [14:31]
B
That was something that was offered to creators to me. I know Air act did it.
- [14:35]
A
It was offered to us.
- [14:36]
B
I know.
- [14:37]
A
Yeah.
- [14:37]
B
And I asked my wife and she was like, I'd prefer you not. Yeah, go up in this fighter jet and pass out or throw up. It didn't really fit our brand necessarily.
- [14:45]
A
Yeah, I was interested in it, but I didn't get how it. I didn't think it was going to be a real good partnership because I was like, I don't think our audience is interested in watching us pass out or throw up.
- [14:55]
B
But for Arak. Yeah, sure, I think it makes sense.
- [14:58]
A
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [14:59]
B
Challenge creator. Yeah, like that. But I just bring it up to say that they are sort of a hybrid where they are making original content that is a part of the creator universe, like a creator. But they are also offering creators the opportunity to integrate in a way that actually elevates the experience. It's not a 60, 90 second, hey, please, you have to read these things about Liquid Death. It's. Here's an interesting experience that should elevate the, the experience for your audience.
- [15:24]
A
Yeah. And so on the other side of this, right, we're saying like brands are becoming creators. So brands are operating more as like, just with that raw authenticity, with like character traits, with shows, with content formats. I think on the other side, creators are becoming brands. And maybe that seems obvious when I say that, but what I mean is like not necessarily like the creator is a brand themselves. It's that the next Nike won't be a brand that needs to sign an athlete to create distribution. It will be an athlete that creates Nike. So, meaning, like the obvious example, Mr. Beast made a chocolate brand. Like he is more chocolate brand now than he is. He's a chocolate brand with a media arm. So same concept as Red Bull, but just going content first, then product. And I think we're seeing really cool versions of this. When I, when we go back to the concept that Crater Economy is at cruising altitude. These are probably stories that you haven't heard unless you read our newsletter, but Gabe desanti, New York based creator, great format, where he goes around, he's like, hey, can I spend the day working with you to like a taxi driver or to a UPS driver? And he's basically shadowing interesting jobs. He launched a platform called Stage where you can book a day shadowing someone. Like, you can pay money to go.
- [16:47]
B
Shadow someone, which is now an extra revenue opportunity for employers.
- [16:52]
A
Exactly right.
- [16:52]
B
Like people could pay. You want to see what it's like to be a creator for a day, right?
- [16:57]
A
Yeah.
- [16:58]
B
Come hang out with us and pay for that experience. And I, when I think about myself coming out of college, I would have loved.
- [17:04]
A
Oh, I would have done this.
- [17:05]
B
I would have done this so much.
- [17:07]
A
I would have done this so much. I would have done almost. I might do almost every job that's. I mean, like you look at, I'm looking at his website right now. You have fashion and beauty. It's like bridal stylist is on here. You have streetwear designer. You have a yoga instructor. You have a sports agent. You have a private chef. You have a founder of like a hospitality business. You have a coffee roaster. I'd be so interested in that.
- [17:35]
B
I love this concept that you can pay to shadow someone.
- [17:38]
A
You have a filmmaker on here, a wedding photographer, a creative agency founder. You have a, a healthcare founder on here. You have a hospital, hospitality marketing agency, floral shop owner, interior designer, real estate agent. Like, this is a really good idea. But like, Gabe started just with short form content and now he's a brand. He owns Stage. This brand.
- [18:04]
B
Content first, product second, content first, product second.
- [18:07]
A
And this is a really interesting new future for a lot of these brands. Another example is the Bucket List Family. We've had them on the show. Family travel and adventure brand they make. They have a massive following that follows their family around as they travel the world. They announced something called the Bucket List collection, which is a series of travel destinations, like hotels, essentially, that, that you can book. The announcement for this went insane. It had over 3,000 shares on Instagram. It had over 3.5 million views when they announced it over the weekend. But like, the Bucket List collection is such a good idea. It's essentially like, you know, it's a brand of hotels.
- [18:48]
B
Yeah. You want to go to this lodge in Canada that's family friendly, approved. Or there's an island in Tonga.
- [18:57]
A
Yeah.
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B
Like, there's some really incredible destinations and like they've built the trust for family friendly adventure travel.
- [19:05]
A
Yeah.
- [19:06]
B
So I think it's a perfect fit. And again, it's something that you may not have heard of, but these announcements are coming out just all the Time.
- [19:12]
A
Yeah. But I think that's where we're seeing this concept of brands, of creators becoming brands. And I don't think this is going to just be the like the massive creators that we hear about. I think this is happening all around the creator world because again, it's not.
- [19:31]
B
It'S not just Hailey Bieber Road.
- [19:32]
A
No.
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B
People may argue if she's a creator or not.
- [19:34]
A
I would argue, I would argue she's a creator. Yeah.
- [19:36]
B
Because she's making a ton of content all the time that directly I don't.
- [19:39]
A
Engage with her outside of social platforms. I've never, I didn't, I don't even know if I've ever seen anything about Hailey Bieber outside of social platforms. To me that makes her greater.
- [19:48]
B
She sells Road for a billion dollars.
- [19:50]
A
Yeah.
- [19:51]
B
Is the most recent headline. But I think, yeah, that's at the top end. I'm sure we'll see major headlines with the joyrides of the world, the feastables of the world, the primes of the world. But I agree with you, these things are happening now because we're at cruising altitude at every level of the crater economy.
- [20:06]
A
I think people are comfortable trying to build a multi six figure business or seven figure business versus like they're going to be the people who are trying to build the hundred million dollar, the Hailey Bieber outcome of a billion dollar company. But like if you can build like especially I think it will be.
- [20:21]
B
People are overjoyed.
- [20:22]
A
People would be ecstatic. Yeah. It's your own company.
- [20:24]
B
Yeah.
- [20:24]
A
Yeah, it's awesome. So if you're good at making videos, of course you want to tap into the fact that advertisers spend to sponsor your content. But really you want to be a brand. You want to, you want one of these companies that you can launch.
- [20:37]
B
Yeah. You want to control your own destiny a little bit more and you want to ideally hedge your bets and make money if for some reason you either can't create content or you don't want to.
- [20:49]
A
So the creator economy, like, you know, so much conversation is around creators replacing Hollywood. But what's really interesting is I don't know if there's as much conversation, maybe there is about like creators modernizing entrepreneurship. Right. Because a large subset of the creator economy is like none of these people want or a lot of these people don't necessarily want a show on like a streamer or to pitch movies or like that's one part of the creator economy. The other part is like I've built an audience and now I can get I can launch a company. And I think that part is going to continue to grow quite a bit. The other part is going to be reserved for a smaller subset. And that's our next Trend, which is YouTube is not necessarily becoming TV, it's replacing it. So obviously the number one headline that's been a headline for the past two years is that YouTube is the number one platform on connected TVs. More people turn on their TV in their living room and click YouTube than any other streaming app. That's a big deal.
- [21:50]
B
And YouTube's excited about it. YouTube's getting behind it. I'm sure if you listen to us, you know that YouTube is going on an Emmy push.
- [21:55]
A
Yep.
- [21:55]
B
They're really excited about Sean Evans and Hot ones Rhett and Link. Good mythical morning. Michelle Carre with challenge accepted. These YouTube creators who are making what feel like slightly more traditional shows with repeatable formats.
- [22:09]
A
And now we're starting to even see scripted content, right? Like there was a Hollywood Reporter article recently about Dhar Mann and Alec Chicken Chow, who have built studios and are essentially making like the modern soap operas, right, in some way or teen dramas. And these are starting to come to YouTube. Lucas Shaw from Bloomberg just wrote an article about this. So I think, like, this concept is happening. I think people didn't believe it was going to happen. Like the world of Hollywood didn't believe it was going to happen. But at the end of the day, it's just like time spent, right? If people are watching YouTube, they're watching YouTube. That's just what's happening. They're competing with everyone else. But I think what this is creating, and I personally believe this is largely due to Beast Games. So Beast Games, Mr. Beast massive reality show, over a hundred, you know, 20, $150 million budget on Amazon Prime Video was renewed for two seasons. And I think that has informed and created precedent for the other streamers to try and strike deals with creators. So I think this next chapter of this conversation is defined by do creators do that or not? Is YouTube just the place they should be? Is there more economic opportunity on YouTube? Is there more audience opportunity on YouTube? Does the whole ecosystem make more sense if they stay on YouTube or does it make sense for them to do their own show on a Netflix or an Amazon prime video or a Disney plus?
- [23:36]
B
I believe that there will be a lot of creators like us who just have a deep interest in what it would be like to create something, spend a little bit more time on it and put it out in a different pipeline because we've spent so much time on YouTube. I think there'll be a lot of creators who just find that interesting and find value to that of understanding. What if I put out something on Amazon? What if I put out something on Netflix? What happens from a cultural relevance standpoint? I know what it's like to distribute on YouTube and to reach the audience there and to grow the audience. There's a. But a lot of us just don't know what it's like to distribute on some of these other platforms. And the other platforms will be increasingly more interested. One, because we all do have distribution and two, we're able to produce at a lower cost.
- [24:23]
A
I think one question is how if there's a sustainable economic model to it or not for the streamers. I think Spotify is a great example of a company that entered into the creator economy with major splashy podcast deals. 150 million or $250 million for Joe Rogan, 120 million for Alex Cooper, 80 million or so for. For Dax Shepard. Maybe more so large, large exclusive deals. And now has since kind of walked back. Maybe because they got what they needed, right? They got a podcast audience over there, they got creators to upload over there. They got the attention of the industry. I think Daniel X said it to us on our pod that they needed to inject energy into the podcast space. So does the net, do the Netflixes and Amazon prime videos replace that or do that kind of same thing where right now over the next two years we might see some like major headlines like obviously Beast Games is a huge headline, $150 million. But we might also see some Mark Rober headline or like sidemen headline or we might start to see more headlines in this space of people getting pulled to streamers. Now I think the question is in like three to five years, does it all just end up leveling out in the same way where like YouTube is where everything ends up. So like Spotify, all these deals that did like everything is just now on YouTube. Call her daddy. Fully available on YouTube. Diary of a CEO all 100% on YouTube. Like everything is just on YouTube. So does like all these shows that go like after two seasons of Beast Games, is Beast Games just back to YouTube?
- [25:58]
B
Yeah, I think most unscripted shows will always lead to YouTube because with this.
- [26:05]
A
Trend of like if YouTube is replacing TV, then it is just going to be the place where you just open up and.
- [26:09]
B
And you imagine it's available there it is.
- [26:12]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:12]
B
And. And YouTube viewers are increasingly ready to watch long form unscripted content. When you open YouTube, you're not currently in a mode of watching scripted content. So I do believe that for a while streamers will have that always.
- [26:31]
A
I think what they'll have to do is build catalog of creator LED content. Because I think the question is after you watch Beast Games, what do you watch? Right. I feel that with all the streamers that I engage with where like after I watch severance on Apple TV, what do I watch next? That's something that YouTube, like YouTube wins with recommendations. So like what do I watch next? Even like, you know, I'm probably halfway through the studio. I don't think I can finish the season of the studio. Cause it's like, so it's kind of like one note, I love the concept. I want to like that show. But like there is nothing that they've presented me that is going to pull me to continue watching Apple TV right now.
- [27:11]
B
But I also think it's a harder ask. After you finish almost an entire season or an entire season of a scripted show, the next thing it recommends to you, you have to be ready in that moment to commit to this journey you just went on.
- [27:24]
A
Sure.
- [27:24]
B
Right. When you finish a Severance, are you ready? You're like, oh yeah, okay, give me something else right away. I think that's the advantage of YouTube too. Right. Like most people probably finish Severance or their favorite show on a streamer and then open up YouTube.
- [27:35]
A
Yeah.
- [27:35]
B
Because they're like, I could use, I could use like a 12 minute video that's that I can watch, get everything I need from it and move on.
- [27:42]
A
Yeah. So that's like variety and catalog. Again, like depth of catalog. And, and, and you know, it'd be, it'd be so interesting to say that to someone at Netflix to be like, I don't think you have depth of catalog. They'd be like, what are you talking about?
- [27:54]
B
Have depth of a certain type of catalog.
- [27:55]
A
Yeah, they have depth of a certain type of catalog. But if they're going to start moving in the creator led direction, I think there actually has to be pretty good depth in that catalog. Which then means there's going to be a lot of deals floating around because they're going to have to build depth in that catalog.
- [28:09]
B
Yeah.
- [28:10]
A
So I think the next two to three years are going to be like major years for creators to get deals in that direction. I don't know yet if it's only reserved for the top 0.5%, similar to Spotify deals, but I do think streamers are gonna, they have no other choice but to try and compete with YouTube.
- [28:27]
B
Yeah. If I were working at a streamer, I would look at the creators who have a lot of distribution, but then I would probably also be looking very intently at the creators who don't have the same level of distribution, but who I believe are incredibly talented. Like I would really be looking at a lot of these platforms and scouting for talent. And obviously that's a much maybe risky because they're not bringing their distribution, but the cost of production can be so low. Right.
- [28:57]
A
So one creator that we sat down with in New York that that episode's going to come out in a couple weeks is Josh Johnson. Josh Johnson is a comedian, he's a Daily show correspondent and he puts out almost an hour of stand up comedy every Tuesday. And it's new material. It's new material that he performs over the weekend. Puts it out on Tuesday and It does between 1 and 5 million views.
- [29:20]
B
Mm.
- [29:21]
A
The standup world is massive on streamers. Yeah. I think the question is, is it more economically viable, stable, better for him to just keep putting out his specials on YouTube every Tuesday or what's the reason for him to go to a Netflix? And the reason to go to a Netflix is that because they're a subscription model, they can pay like him driving new audience and audience retention is more valuable to them than it is to YouTube. Right. So then he, he would only be going for like some really big, big check.
- [29:58]
B
Yeah. He's doing it very differently. Right. He's like building his audience week to week.
- [30:01]
A
Yeah.
- [30:02]
B
And that's driving ticket sales in person. Yeah.
- [30:05]
A
Yeah. So that's, that's where it's like. I'm just not sure where this shakes out. Which is why this is a subject matter for Press Publish nyc. Because we want to bring people together to have this conversation. I don't want to always sit here and say YouTube is replacing Hollywood. I want to get people sitting there in the chairs having this debate and actually honestly getting perspective and take of like, is this happening? Yeah.
- [30:28]
B
And I don't even want to sit and tell creators that you should go towards Hollywood.
- [30:32]
A
No, it's like, yeah, that's not what it's.
- [30:34]
B
The beauty of YouTube is just do it by yourself and like have a sustainable business.
- [30:39]
A
Less stakeholders. Yeah, just, just do it. I, I think actually what we talked about in Trend one is like, is the dream scenario where like you're making a show and the stakeholder is your own company that benefits from making your show. That's a great situation. That's A very different thing than. Than what we're talking about with, like, getting a streaming deal.
- [30:57]
B
Totally.
- [30:59]
A
Trend three probably feels obvious.
- [31:01]
B
I would hope it's obvious, but maybe not.
- [31:05]
A
AI is right?
- [31:07]
B
When you said that, everyone went, yeah.
- [31:08]
A
Okay, yeah, people probably shut it off. They're like, stop, I'm done, I'm done. Please stop. But just bear with us for a second. AI is not just reshaping creativity, it's reshaping viewership behavior. And I think that's a really important thing. Right. Like, we've seen major, major things happen in the world of AI in the past six months. So one of the most notable was Google's VO3, their text to video model that lets you generate, like, truly the best video we've ever seen just from.
- [31:37]
B
A text prompt, which now has sound.
- [31:39]
A
And it now has sound. Yeah. And dialogue. You can prompt it with dialogue. You can say, have, you know, character one, say this to character two. It's crazy. But we're also seeing some companies, like this company called Delphi, they do licensing for creators where they essentially, I mean, listen, this is. We've been approached by them and multiple other companies to say, hey, let's load in your full Colin and Samir library. Let's get you guys your own, you know, large language model based on everything you've ever said on the Internet, all.
- [32:08]
B
Of your episodes, everyone you've ever spoken.
- [32:10]
A
To, every episode you've been on, every article you've ever had, maybe every issue of published press. And let's. Let's train a model where people can just talk to you guys 247 about.
- [32:20]
B
Things that are very specific to them and what they want.
- [32:22]
A
Yeah. So this is kind of this world of like creator clones, creator licensing and AI is accelerating that level of availability to us where essentially, like, maybe there's a form of passive revenue that exists for creators of just. Yeah, engage with Colin and Samir AI and I'll get paid. If a million people are engaging with it right now, then, you know, we're monetizing all of those interactions. I think the monetization is like, either you download an app that's like the Colin Inspira AI app and you pay like a monthly subscription to that app, or it's like time spent.
- [33:01]
B
Also. I don't know if I'm drinking the Kool Aid, which maybe I am.
- [33:04]
A
Yeah, do it.
- [33:04]
B
But I. I'm starting to believe in the value. Like when we sat and talked with Reed AI, Reid Hoffman's AI, and it was this form of. It was like talking To a book.
- [33:18]
A
Yeah.
- [33:18]
B
Where, like, I didn't have to read his book.
- [33:20]
A
Yeah.
- [33:21]
B
But I could just ask him questions that were specific to what I wanted to know. And, like, if I didn't like the answer, I'd be like, wait, could you go to this direction and that direction? And I even think about, you know, sometimes when I run into listeners of the show on the street or something, and they engage with me in a conversation and they, like, ask me a question about a past episode, I'm like, oh, that was like, four years ago. Do I remember this? Do I remember that? Like, I don't even know if I am the best equipped to deliver the information from some of the episodes we've done.
- [33:49]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [33:49]
B
Like, someone was like, hey, your first interview with Mr. Beast, what was the thing he said? Oh, yeah, about retention. I'd be like, yeah, you might as well ask my AI man.
- [34:01]
A
Dude, that happens in more, like, even more frequent things. Like, we, you know, Aprilyn Alter, this creator, asked us to be in one of her videos. She came over here to our studio and sat down with us, and I watched our segment in her video this weekend, and I was like, I didn't even know I said that. That was like four weeks ago.
- [34:16]
B
What'd you say? I couldn't even tell you what I said.
- [34:18]
A
I was. I was just talking about, like, how you should think about your channel and. And I said one line that I can't even recall right now, but if my A was here, I could recall it, or they could recall it, or it could recall it. I don't even know what it is, but I can't recall the line I said. But I. I just remember watching and going, huh, that was pretty good, man. I didn't know that guy said, Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know I said that. Yeah, it's wild. So, yeah, yeah, I think I. Look, there's, There's. I think there's obvious use cases here. Like, there's a major parenting creator named Dr. Becky. She has a massive library. She's a huge business called Good Inside, which is a parenting subscription platform. So you pay a monthly fee and you get access to all this education, videos, chats, live sessions about parenting. So now imagine you just have Dr. Becky AI, and you're like, FaceTiming when something's going on with your kid. Hey, what do I do in this situation? Right? And you're just like, your AirPods are in, and you're just live chatting. I was, I was, you know, going back and forth Texting with David Dobrik last night about. He has built this AI that he calls Amara. If you guys are listening to his podcast views, he's. He's talking about it quite a bit, about how much time he's spending with his AI and how he has her in his ears constantly. He just did it. It's just through ChatGPT. But that, that I think is going to happen. But imagine that Amara isn't like just template chatgpt, it's like a notable figure. It's Tony Robbins. It's David Goggins. While you're in the gym, you know, hey, what should I do for my workout right now? Hey, what should I eat right now? And now, now you understand, I think a little bit of why every company is accelerating towards a wearable. Right?
- [35:57]
B
Yeah.
- [35:57]
A
Like OpenAI buys. Is it Jony I've. Or Yoni? Yoni, Is it Yoni?
- [36:04]
B
I said that really confidently, but I.
- [36:05]
A
Didn'T know that someone said, I think it was you who said that. I was like, might have been.
- [36:08]
B
I don't know, man. Ask my AI. Did I say that?
- [36:12]
A
See, I think the long story short here is I think if I had.
- [36:16]
B
An AI, I would just be like, sameer, stop talking to me, man. Just talk to my AI. All right.
- [36:19]
A
That would be great.
- [36:20]
B
Our AIs would just talk to each other.
- [36:22]
A
Just talk to each other and summarize it. But I don't know, you know, again, this. Sure. Maybe in the short term this unlocks opportunity for creators. My biggest fear with these deals that we're getting offered is like, does ChatGPT just become the next YouTube where they.
- [36:38]
B
Just like, we're getting deals offered, deals for companies to make clones of you and I. Yeah, yeah. Just to be clear.
- [36:45]
A
Yeah. That audiences can chat with.
- [36:46]
B
Yeah.
- [36:47]
A
Through voice.
- [36:48]
B
Yeah. My belief is that ChatGPT is just gonna make this stuff and then Google will make it.
- [36:52]
A
Or like, do they just open up a revenue sharing program? Hey, build your, build your AI bot here with GPT and you can charge for it and we'll give you a revenue share. Like is it the next YouTube or is it time spent and there's like ads that play in between while you're talking to Colin. It's mere AI. It gives you an ad and we can thumbs up or thumbs down the ad and. Yeah, but then, but then again, that's a very short term solution because then we have no more influencers, celebrities, creators. We just have your own personalized GPTs. You have David Dobrik's Amara, right? Who he wants to hang with every day or who he wants to hear stuff from every day, who wants to maybe hear the news from. Right.
- [37:38]
B
Because, like, then you'd have, like, famous Jeep, like clones or people, or like characters where people are like, oh, I kind of want to list. I want to talk to David.
- [37:44]
A
Yeah. I want to talk to Amara. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so, again, there's one side of this that's the opportunity for creators. Right. And interesting. Okay. This is. This is cool opportunity for filmmakers. We've actually seen some amazing work with VAO3 truly. And you were prompting some graphics the other day that I was like, damn, those are awesome. Yeah, really cool graphics. So it's like, that's really interesting. But the other side is like the world of audiences, like, with more and more of these companies offering deals in this direction, it is suggesting a different version of the Internet. It really is. It's suggesting a more hyper personalized one of one version of the Internet for everyone.
- [38:23]
B
Yeah.
- [38:23]
A
And that's when you start to ask the question, what does that mean for the creator economy? What does that mean for us? You know, when that's starting to happen? What does it mean for YouTube's bulk of the Internet? That's how to. When you can prompt, you know, when VO3 is integrated into something like Gemini or something like ChatGPT, and you're just like, hey, how do I change this tire? And it's like, here's like a custom video walking you through it.
- [38:49]
B
Yeah. For that exact tire.
- [38:50]
A
For that exact tire. That's like, wipes out a whole category on YouTube. So that conversation. You might be sick of hearing the term AI. You might be like, can you guys stop talking about AI for a second? But I. I don't think we are at a point where we can ignore it by any means. And I actually think it's a point where you need to think through all the different possibilities, because from right now, the middle of 2025 to the end of 2025, I think we're going to see a radically different Internet. And I think this time next year, we're all going to be living on a different Internet.
- [39:21]
B
Yeah.
- [39:22]
A
And I think we just need to be, like, having conversations and bringing in experts to hear about it.
- [39:26]
B
Do you believe that a year or two from now our show could be completely irrelevant and replaced because of people's usage and desire to chat with AI?
- [39:39]
A
I. I don't know. I don't. I don't know. I don't think so. I think there's still such a desire for collectivism. Now, where we find that collectivism, I don't know, but, like, I just think there is a deep desire for collectivism. I think if I'm walking through the world and like, no one else has had the same experience as me that day, I'm gonna feel weird. Like, I like feeling like, like other people are having, you know, like I'm. I'm a part of something that's collective, but. But there might be less of it. So I don't know. I'm not in fear of, like, job replacement or like, you know, I also think that's because we're just generally adaptable. But I'm not in fear of that right now.
- [40:18]
B
No, yeah, same, definitely. Cool. Everything's cool over here.
- [40:22]
A
But I think you're also like an efficiency audience member of the Internet versus a like, hangout audience member of the Internet.
- [40:32]
B
Me?
- [40:32]
A
Yeah.
- [40:32]
B
What do you mean?
- [40:33]
A
Like, you will go find something and watch it through the lens of, like, efficiency.
- [40:41]
B
Really?
- [40:41]
A
You don't think so? Versus through, like, I will just peruse YouTube and just click on stuff and watch stuff and give it the time of day, like, no matter what.
- [40:51]
B
Yeah. I only give my friends on YouTube the time of day and CBS Sunday Morning. Right. That's it.
- [40:57]
A
That's what I mean. Like, you're not a peruser.
- [40:59]
B
It's not efficient.
- [41:00]
A
You're not a peruser. So your use of the Internet is very different than my use of the Internet. And so what I'm saying is, I think, like, in the future, I'm open to a more loose navigation of the Internet versus a more pointed navigation of the Internet. And I think the reason to be afraid would be if we assume that all audience members want a more pointed version of the Internet. Where I'm going on the Internet for one specific thing, one specific ask, one specific task, versus, like, this is a place where I. It's like a third place where I go and hang out and explore.
- [41:32]
B
Yeah. I believe that the rise of AI and the usage of these GPTs is a threat to our job that I didn't foresee.
- [41:44]
A
Yeah.
- [41:45]
B
But I always believed that there would be continual threats to our job. It's just the nature of a creative career or many careers. It's like you. I think you always have to assume that what's happening today is not going to happen tomorrow. So.
- [41:58]
A
Reid Hoffman.
- [41:59]
B
Yeah.
- [41:59]
A
Your default dead.
- [42:00]
B
Yeah.
- [42:01]
A
I love that you wake up every day as an entrepreneur or a creator. You wake up every day default dead. You have to bring your Idea to life every day. Yeah, I love that. All right, maybe just a final thought and a final thing that I want to leave everyone with is that I am increasingly more impressed with streaming, meaning Twitch streaming and like live streaming. The incredible amounts of influence that live streamers have on the Internet, I find to be so interesting and something to just really sit back and study of. Like, the amount that Kaisenat is influencing the Internet or Ishowspeed is influencing the Internet or Ludwig is ability to influence the Internet, I find to be really interesting and something to think about as we enter this next chapter and as we enter this next, like, the. The trend of the creator economy. Because I think it's. It's pretty binary what's happening on the Internet right now between, like, guys sitting in a chair and guys, you know, spending millions of dollars and collaborating with top sports athletes. I'm talking about Mr. Beast and Kaisen at like, the two kind of kings of the Internet right now. Feel diff. So different to me, yet so similar in their influence.
- [43:21]
B
Different because when you say one guy sitting in a chair, you just mean the production value.
- [43:26]
A
Yeah. And just the content of it.
- [43:28]
B
Yeah. I would argue, though, that, like, Kaisanat's production value is actually really high.
- [43:33]
A
It's increasing. Yeah.
- [43:34]
B
Of what? Streamer University was all the way down to all the promo videos he made. Like, it's all. It always ramps up.
- [43:42]
A
Yeah, that's true. Streamer University was interesting. I'm still like, wrapping my head around what exactly it was. All I know is, like, he brought a bunch of people out to Akron, Ohio, and University of Akron and essentially got the opportunity to, like, learn from other people. And all those sessions, like, the guest lectures and whatnot were streamed. Plus everyone was streaming and Kai was popping into everyone's stream, which was giving everyone a lift.
- [44:05]
B
So I couldn't tell if it was like a real school or if it was like a set for live theater. And maybe it was both.
- [44:11]
A
It was both. It was like incubation meets live theater. Yeah. But like, some people went in there with like 2,000 twitch followers and walked out with 40,000.
- [44:21]
B
Yeah. Very cool.
- [44:21]
A
So, like, that's like. That's pretty crazy. But anyway, something to just think about, and I think maybe something that will also add into conversation around there. It's like, what is the world of. Of live and the world of very, very long form content between Twitch streaming and podcasting? So that's like a bonus trend.
- [44:41]
B
Bonus trend.
- [44:41]
A
Bonus trend.
- [44:42]
B
Okay.
- [44:43]
A
Yeah. So those are our three trends. Those are our trends that we're going to be talking about at Press publish NYC, which is on September 4th. That's what we're seeing in the world of the creator economy. If you're seeing something different or if you don't agree with us, let us know. You can comment here on Spotify, you can tweet at us, you can email us. And again, our website is probably, maybe, I think, up.
- [45:05]
B
If it's not up.
- [45:06]
A
If it's not up, something's gone because.
- [45:07]
B
You'Re listening on Tuesday or.
- [45:09]
A
Or we have had an existential crisis or like some type of spiraling thing has happened because Colin said this is going to be Fire Fest. Yeah, it's not going to be Fire Fest.
- [45:20]
B
It's not going to be Fire Fest.
- [45:22]
A
Right.
- [45:22]
B
But again, did Fire Fest know it was going to be Fire Fest?
- [45:25]
A
But also, if you came to Fyre Fest, you like, you had a damn good story.
- [45:29]
B
So Press Publish nyc, not Fyre Fest. At least we think.
- [45:34]
A
At least we think for now. For now. But if it is, you'll at least leave with a pretty good story.
- [45:40]
B
It was all just performance art, like, gave you a good story.
- [45:43]
A
That was pretty good.
- [45:44]
B
Yeah.
- [45:44]
A
Yeah.
- [45:45]
B
It's not going to be Fire Fest. I urge you, if you're interested.
- [45:48]
A
What's the website? It's going to be linked. What is it? It's going to be linked because it should be Press published dot nyc.
- [45:55]
B
Yeah, but it's news dot thepublishedpress dot com backslash.
- [45:59]
A
Really?
- [45:59]
B
Yeah. At least right now we're still working on it.
- [46:02]
A
I bet you we can get that URL.
- [46:03]
B
Press Publish NYC.
- [46:05]
A
Yeah, I'll fire up my GoDaddy account right now. Yeah, dude. Press Publish NYC. We should grab that right now. All right, thanks for listening to this episode of the Colin and Samira Show. If you are available on September 4th, if you want to come hang out in New York City, come check that out. Apply to join. The tickets are $400, so it is an event that you have to take out your credit card for, but it is going to be fun and it won't be or might be Fyre Fest. So come check it out. Come hang out with us in New York. Let us know what you think about these three trends and we'll see you next week.