Episode 59- Laura

Summary

Summary of The Collage Podcast – Episode 59: Laura

Title: The Collage Podcast – Episode 59: Laura
Host/Author: Feed My Sheep
Release Date: January 22, 2025
Description: Produced by Feed My Sheep in Temple, TX, The Collage shares stories and experiences of people in our community, showcasing our shared humanity.

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Introduction and Guest Welcome

The Collage Podcast launches its first episode of 2025 with host Jeff warmly welcoming Laura, a dedicated member of the Feed My Sheep ministry. Jeff sets an enthusiastic tone, expressing excitement about embarking on the year with meaningful conversations. [00:00-02:04]

Embracing New Life Seasons

Laura discusses her transition into an empty nest after being a mother since her teenage years. This new phase brings her immense joy and the freedom to pursue adventures she previously couldn't. "[I] love it. I've been an empty nester for three years now," she shares. [02:04-02:35]

Life as a Series of Seasons

Jeff introduces the metaphor of life being divided into seasons—spring, summer, fall, and winter—each representing different phases and challenges. He emphasizes that just as seasons change, so do life's circumstances, and resisting these changes only prolongs struggle. "[...] life has many different seasons," Jeff remarks, highlighting the inevitability of change. [03:06-06:24]

The Power of Perspective and Response

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the concept that while we can't control every event in life, we can control our responses. Jeff presents his personal philosophy: "Everything e + r equals o and R is a variable," meaning that the outcome (o) is determined by the event (e) plus our response (r). [14:07-15:04] Laura concurs, stressing that maintaining a positive perspective allows her to navigate challenges effectively. "I am a firm believer. One of my favorite words is perspective," she states. [11:56-12:11]

Mental Health and the Importance of Community

The conversation delves into mental health struggles, addiction, and the crucial role of community support. Laura shares her past battles with self-harm, bearing scars as constant reminders of her journey. She underscores the necessity of self-grace and the importance of not succumbing to a victim mindset. "[...] I have to learn to give myself grace," Laura explains. [23:29-24:19]

Jeff adds that community initiatives like Feed My Sheep are vital in preventing individuals from feeling isolated during dark times. He recounts experiences where community support made a difference, reinforcing the message that nobody should have to face hardships alone. "[...] the number one thing we provide is this community. That somebody is not alone in these dark moments." [66:00-69:00]

Personal Struggles and Healing Journeys

Laura opens up about her teenage years, mentioning attempts to self-harm and the profound impact these experiences had on her. She emphasizes that her past struggles have fueled her desire to help others feel less alone. "I have scars to prove it [...] but I've come through it and I'm okay," she reflects. [18:31-20:00]

Jeff shares a poignant story from his youth where he faced life-threatening challenges on a mountain in Bolivia. He illustrates the importance of recognizing when one is lost and the necessity of seeking help rather than stubbornly persevering in the wrong direction. "[I] knew I was going to die... but someone dragged me back," he recounts. [33:12-35:26]

Lessons from Nature: Mountains and Rivers

Using metaphors from nature, Jeff and Laura compare life to navigating through mountains and rivers. They discuss how these natural elements symbolize life's unpredictability and the need for guidance. Jeff recounts his experience of getting lost and relying on a compass (faith) to find his way, emphasizing trust in a higher power. "The compass is always pointing to true north. It is never wrong," Jeff asserts. [72:22-73:03]

Laura relates by describing how her adventures and the challenges she faces during them mirror life's trials. She highlights that tools and preparation are essential, just as having the right mindset and support systems are crucial in real life. "God speaks to me in the way that he knows Jeff will understand," she shares. [84:52-88:06]

Assignments and Future Discussions

Towards the episode's end, Jeff assigns Laura two films to watch—Shawshank Redemption and The Alpinist—to serve as reflective exercises for future discussions. These selections aim to delve deeper into themes of hope, perspective, and resilience. "We're going to talk about that," Jeff mentions, setting the stage for continued exploration of these concepts. [129:45-131:51]

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

The episode wraps up with affirmations about the importance of community, perspective, and personal growth. Both hosts stress that everyone has unique struggles and that supporting one another is essential. They encourage listeners to focus on their own journeys without falling into the trap of comparison, highlighting that true fulfillment comes from embracing one's path and the lessons it brings. "[...] life is a beautiful painting," Jeff concludes, emphasizing that each person's story contributes to the larger masterpiece. [133:05-135:20]

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jeff on Setting the Tone:
  "This is the first podcast of 2025, so we are setting the tone and the flavor of this whole year..."
  [00:00]

• Jeff on Perspective Philosophy:
  "Everything e + r equals o and R is a variable. So I would say an event plus our response equals the outcome."
  [14:07]

• Laura on Maintaining a Positive Outlook:
  "I'm going to focus on the good things in life. I'm going to focus on, it's a new season. It's fun."
  [16:23]

• Jeff on Survival and Perspective:
  "When things get the most foggy and the most dark, the number one human tendency is to go, no, no."
  [67:28]

• Laura on Self-Grace:
  "I now give myself enough grace... I'm going to give you grace. I'm going to give everyone else grace."
  [23:29]

• Jeff on Community Support:
  "Feed My Sheep... the number one thing we provide is this community. That somebody is not alone in these dark moments."
  [66:00-69:00]

• Jeff on Trusting the Compass (Faith):
  "The compass is always pointing to true north. It is never wrong."
  [72:22]

Overall Insights

Episode 59 of The Collage Podcast offers a deep dive into personal growth, mental health, and the transformative power of perspective and community support. Through candid conversations and personal anecdotes, Jeff and Laura highlight the inevitability of life’s seasons and the importance of responding positively to challenges. The episode reinforces that while we cannot control every event, our responses shape our experiences and outcomes. Emphasizing the significance of not feeling alone, the hosts advocate for building supportive communities and practicing self-grace as essential tools for navigating life’s complexities.

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Note: This summary is intended to provide an overview of the podcast episode for those who haven't listened to it. It captures key discussions, insights, and notable quotes to convey the essence of the conversation.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign to the Collage Podcast. And thank you for making us a part of your day. If you enjoy the podcast, please, like rate and subscribe. Hey, we want to welcome you to another edition of the Collage Podcast. And we are excited. I don't know when. Well, we're always excited. So that's a. That's a rude intro. But we are excited today because I don't know when you're listening to this or where you're at, doesn't matter. But this is the first podcast of 2025, so we are setting the tone and the flavor of this whole year, so no pressure. Okay, so today we are excited also. Not just because it's the first one, but we have a friend of ours up here that wanted to come talk to us. And this is Laura. Hi. Okay, so hello, Laura. How are you?

[B]

I'm doing really okay.

[A]

So we've got Laura up here. She does not know completely what we are getting into, nor do I, so that is fair. But how about this, because people out there, again, let me just kind of tell you, we are in a little place called Temple, Texas, that's a little town here in central Texas, will say that every time we are recording out of a place called Feed My Sheep here in Temple. And what Feed My Sheep is, is a ministry that we work with all different kind of people that are hungry, and we would say they are hungry physically, spiritually, and emotionally. And we try to try to feed those different needs in various different forms. And it's in light of that that we have Laura here. And so tell us a little bit about Laura and what you want the whole entire world to know about you.

[B]

Oh, gosh.

[A]

Well, actually that's my mom and like my grandmother that are listening to this. But other than that, I'm just kidding. So tell me about Laura.

[B]

Well, I am a mom, which is really important to me. Obviously, I am an empty nester. So that's been. It's a really fun season of life right now.

[A]

Do you like it?

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Okay. Okay. I'm having a difficult time with that.

[B]

Oh, I love it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I love it. I've been an empty nester for three years now. I was a teen mom.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I've been a mom for a long time. And so it's really nice to kind of have that freedom that I never had since I was 17.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It's a good season. I like it.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah. Just stay busy and work and.

[A]

Okay. And so like here for people out there. So Laura is one that that serves with us here at Feed my Sheep. She comes up, various forms of that. And I will just brag on her. I'm not going to give you great details, but no offense out there, like if I said, hey, this is Laura, she's a mother and she has a van, you're gonna be like, oh, I know her story. No, Laura's got a stinking cool van.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

It is such a cool van for traveling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So one of the things that we have kind of connected on is you like to go on adventures, like head off, lack of a better term. You just drive off and you're going to go to Yellowstone in the van.

[B]

And you just go, yeah, I do. Which it. It's. That's a part of my whole empty nester going into the season. And it's so much that I've learned in my life on how to kind of come at a different season or tackle a different season in a right way. I know that I've got control of certain things. And so to. To bring myself into that season. I knew it was going to be hard because I'm a single mom. I'm single. I've been single for 10 years.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And have chosen to stay this way. And I. When my daughter moved out a couple years ago and went to college, I knew that it was going to be a tough transition. She's my best friend, she's my last kid at home and all that I have left at home besides my little dog. But so I just. I knew that I needed to do something for myself to kind of go into that, to make it a good transition in. And so I dropped her off at college in Arizona. And then I just took off on a two week long road trip. That was my first road trip. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it was the best trip of my entire life. And I. So I work remotely. I. It's kind of like the perfect season. I have a job where I can work remotely so I could take off and go on this trip and still work the whole time. But I just camped. I tent camped and I camped out of my car.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And I got a couple hotels, but I was trying to kind of keep the spending to a minimum. And then also just. I love being outdoors. And so I just had the greatest time ever. And so then when I came back, I decided, I'm going to keep doing this. This is like, this is going to be me for as long as I can make this happen financially and whatever. And so I bought a van and I redid the van and I. Yeah. And it's been the coolest thing ever. It's a tiny little van, but I, you know, I redid the inside and stuff, so it's. It has taken me on the best adventures in my life.

[A]

Okay, good. And you know what? It's kind of funny. Laura and I were just sitting here because, I mean, hey, we're recording something. And she's like, hey, what are we going to talk about? And I'm like, I don't know. And we thought we had said we're going to. Hey, we're going to talk about this. Okay. Wasn't what we're going to talk about here. Okay. So this is interesting to me because, like this, everybody, life has many different seasons. And I like the phrase that you use there. I mean, like, whether you, like, you're the biggest winter fan of all winter fans out there. That season comes to an end and guess what comes. You got spring. And it doesn't matter if you're the best. Spring is like the most awesomest time of the year. Guess what? Summer comes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then fall is going to come, and then winter is going to come again. It's a cycle. Everything comes in these seasons come. And it doesn't do me a whole lot of good right now. Okay. To go. Oh, I really loved fall. I hate winter. Why can't we just go back to fall?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because the season is gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It will come back maybe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's gone. And we're now in winter and why not enjoy winter and all that it brings? And then when the spring comes, you're like, ah, man, I really missed the cold. Now we're back in this and we find these things and we kind of lament. Yeah. I want to hear. Did you know that you were going to. When you dropped your daughter off, you went to Arizona. You drop her off for school. Did you know when I drop her off, I'm gone for a bit?

[B]

Yeah, I had, I had the plan of. I started planning it probably about six months before and kind of laying out the road trip because I had never done it before. I'm not big on driving long distances. What, though now I do that?

[A]

No, but.

[B]

Well, before I wasn't. But here we are in a new season and look at me. I drive all across the U.S. i actually even just drove to Canada. But I. I know, I. But I. Yeah, I. I planned this trip. So it was like. It. What was really special about it was I dropped her off. And the day I dropped her off, you know, if you dropped your kid off at college before they. She wants me gone, like immediately. And as a parent, we're like, well, I wanna. You sure you don't need me here? You want me to walk you around the school? Yeah. Can we go meet your friends? Whatever. She was ready for me to go like that day. And so, you know, we said our goodbyes and I left and I started getting a little teary eyed and I got in my car and I'm like, oh, I am headed to the mountains. I'm not sad anymore. So it was just like I said, it was preparing myself for this transition that instead of with my son, when my son was. He's six years older than her. And I remember like his junior year of high school, I was on the floor in the fetal position, just sobbing and I was crying all the time because it was just, you know, my. My first kid's gonna leave the house. That's been my baby for so long. And so that was a really hard transition. And so I knew. Yeah. So I mean, I planned it and it was great. I mean, it was amazing. I maybe got teary eyed for a whole few minutes and then I hit the road and I was focused on the fun I was about to have.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And what I like on. On that. Well, twofold is interesting discussion. Cause I can feel you're hurt as well. Different. Even on the male side because I have two kids. Yeah, different order. Well, no, same order. My son is the older and my daughter is the younger. And you know, no offense to boys, to guys, to men, for a lot of chapters of their lives for fathers, you're like, this little dude is wearing me out. Like when they're like 15, 16, they know everything. Yeah. And then all of a sudden they. They get to this place and you're like, man, I kind of enjoy this. Adult.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And you're like, man, I kind of enjoy this person. And it's at that juncture on a guy that you're like, oh, man, crud. And now he's going away because he needs to, like, he needs to go become him. And you're like, well, doggone it. He's finally the, the person that, wow, I enjoyed this. What was interesting on my son is like, you're going, okay, I'm kind of sad. But the relationship didn't change a little bit. And it was. Yeah, it was tough. Now, I don't know. For me, my daughter, she went kind of like, what? She went different direction? Yours went west, mine went East. So she was in Tennessee, and I dropped her off. And you're like, oh, I'll walk around to make sure this is. And she's like, see you. I'm done. Like. Like, hey, do you want me to walk you to this? Your roommate. Do you want me to help you unpack something? No. Do you need me to put stuff together? No. And so very independent. And there was a moment. You're like, hold on. She doesn't need me anymore. She does, but in a different way. Yeah, that's right. And so you. And then there's a selfish motivation. Okay. But all of that. The kids. So then to make sure. Because not everybody can relate to the experience of bringing kids off to school. Okay. So then we won't leave anybody out. But the discussion, to me that is interesting on seasons is we have a choice of how we embrace the new season. We cannot stop it from coming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We do not choose some of the seasons we go to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So some of them are good and some of them are difficult.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, like, so here with the weather, we've got a. A foreknowledge of, oh, next week it's going to be in the low 20s and teens. Okay. So you can prepare for that a little bit and go. In life, we don't always get this forewarning of, hey, guess what, Jeff? The season you thought was coming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is totally different than what you thought. And you're now in this season and you don't even know, like, here. I know winter ends theoretically on such and such a time on the calendar.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm just going, if I can just make it. If I can make it to March, then I'm done with winter life. We don't know when March is. We don't know when this season is going to end, and we enter all these things. So let me ask. You would say. You said this. This is one of your. At this juncture, most enjoyable seasons that you've been in. Like, you are finding joy in the season.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I will say a lot of that comes from my own attitude.

[A]

Okay, agreed.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's. I. I am a firm believer. One of my favorite words is perspective. And no matter how hard life is in the moment or how good it is in the moment, our perspective and how we choose to view things shifts everything.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Because you. You can be. I mean, I've been in some very bad situations when I was younger, some really rough situations when I was younger, and just really hard seasons. Of life. And, you know, some of those seasons, I didn't bring myself into some of them. I did some things I couldn't help, some things I could. But I don't know, I. I guess like looking back at the bigger picture now. I love to look back on my life and my past. I'm somebody who likes to revisit things from my past because to me, it's healing. It's also a reminder of it's going to be okay. I'm going to make it through whatever seasons comes to me. I've made it through this. So if I also have a better perspective of life in general, when something tough comes, I can either just say, okay, I'm going to drop my daughter off and I'm going to be alone and I'm going to be on my own and I'm single and it's going to be hard, and I'm going to come home to an extremely quiet home. And I can focus on all these negative things because even though I say this is my best season ever, I could still find plenty of things that would make. Could make me sad if I would allow it to make me sad. But I'm not going to because I'm going to focus on the good things in life. I'm going to focus on, it's a new season. It's fun. It's. I can do this. I can. And I know also not everybody is going to drop their kid off at college and not everybody's going to have this perfect opportunity that I have to hit the road and, you know, go on some great vacation and do all this traveling. This is a kind of a rare thing. I get that. But there's still better ways to kind of go into seasons and kind of work on your perspective and how you're seeing things.

[A]

Okay, interesting. These always is perplexing to me because this is not at all the direction that we were going to talk, but this is. This is my wheelhouse. Like, I say this all the time here. Like, the redneck term I use is, I cannot control the weather. I can simply control how I react to the weather.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Backpacking 101.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If it's sunny, I will enjoy the sunshine. If it rains, I want to feel every raindrop. Okay. And I cannot control that. I can simply control my response. You would say perspective, I would say response, same word. And then for me, yeah, the one thing I came up, because I'm terrible at math, I don't even know why I came up with a mathematical formula that is for me, the secret to life, it is an empowering thing to me. And this is trademarked. I don't even know what trademark means, but this is trademark. Okay. So whatever that. It's not. Okay. But I would say in life, everything e + r equals o and R is a variable. So I would say an event plus our response equals the outcome. And we control the R. Yeah. So our response is an event. How we respond to it, that equals the outcome. Okay. Our perspective on these things. So like you say, and it is a choice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Things that happen. The event is not a choice.

[B]

No.

[A]

Good things happen, bad things happen. Okay. And unfortunately, my response to the event is the thing I can control. I cannot undo the event, but I can control the response. And it is not a one time thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is a. Like you said, it is a proactive. Throughout the course of. Okay. I will choose to respond this way again. I will find ways to respond positively. So, like, this we go. You're in a great season. You found happiness because you're proactively seeking it out and not staying in the place that would proactively bring sadness, despair, and grief.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a choice.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. You cannot necessarily choose whether or not your daughter left. You cannot choose that you. Your house now has far fewer residents than it did before. That's life.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You can choose that you chose. I am going to respond and I am going to live life abundantly and live it with joy. Yeah, whatever that means. Individually, economics don't play a part in that. Whether you have a whole lot of money or a little bit of money, the response is still the same.

[B]

I fully agree there. Yeah, I fully agree because I feel like I've been in all different areas of that. I have. I've lived on nothing and then I've lived on plenty. You know, I've just. And it still comes down to how we react and. Yeah. And how we handle things. So again, not everybody's going to have the opportunity to kind of take off and go on a vacation or something like that. But still, I mean, there's. Go outside and go for a walk that's. That's free. Or, you know, just find something that brings you joy or focus on little things in this life that bring you joy. Like, I find joy in the tiniest of things.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Yeah. But I mean, but that also then helps my outlook on everything else. Like, it's going to be okay. This life is pretty great.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's pretty hard and it can be pretty bad, but it's also really great. So I get to choose. Am I going to focus on the really hard or I'm going to focus on the little things that are good. Even though sometimes the things that are good are only the little things that I can see other places, but I can still focus. I can still choose to focus on those little good things rather than the storm that may be brewing in my life at the moment.

[A]

Okay, let me ask. So like this. Because with it, I, this is 101 for me. Like, this is no brainer, okay? Other people would choose to go, oh, that's naive, juvenile. Oh, you look, you found this little fine, small, little sliver of good. You don't even understand how much bad is going on. And then you're just being naive.

[B]

I mean, I understand, okay? I've lived a lot of it, okay? So I, I, I completely understand. And I, I, I think, I don't think I, I feel, I know that's what got me to this place. That's what brought me to this mindset. Everything that I've been through in my past is, could either break me or create a stronger person. And I've chosen to not let it break me by doing the work and, you know, looking at things in a different way. But, I mean, I've been, been in some really dark valleys. Yeah.

[A]

Let me ask, can I ask?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Gotta ask that question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Why did you not quit when many people do, don't even need to know what the circumstance. Why didn't you quit? Because we all have it in us, you know? Why'd you keep going?

[B]

I tried to quit.

[A]

Okay, fair enough. Fair enough.

[B]

I definitely tried to quit a couple times when I was younger. I've scars to prove it. And, you know, just, there were plenty of times when I wanted to quit.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And, and I, and I tried to quit, but I was a teenager and I just, I don't know. I don't, I don't really, you know, even with my faith, I don't have that one moment where I was sitting somewhere and I said, oop, life changed. I, it was like God was working on me just slowly over the years. And I, I guess at some point I could just slowly start kind of looking back and saying, you know, these really hard things happen to me, but I'm okay, I am okay and I made it out and I'm okay and it's going to be okay, and there's good things that can come. I'm going to still probably face some really hard things in life ahead Still.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I don't know, I start going in every direction, but I don't feel like it's naive to me because again, I've been through just some rough stuff. I don't know, just. And I don't even know where to even start with all of it.

[A]

Agreed. Yeah, but like that. So like this. So somebody who has clarity of this, of going, man, it's, it's a choice. I can it. For me, what's intriguing is that person has seen the dark valley.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. There's no way you can come to that place and go. It's a choice. And I either have to live this way. Like even me, like I've. And that's one of the benefits, I guess we would say, of getting old is you have perspective in it. You can look back and you'd go, man, I can look at the 17 year old Jeff and I'm going, how in the. This dude didn't have a clue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and wanted to give up or wanted to go this way. And these little things that you don't even notice in life occur and then you make it through that season, you're another. And then all of a sudden when you get older, you're at a different place and you're like, it's easier to persevere because you have this body of work that you carry around with you. That's your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That you're like going, well, yeah, this is nothing. I've already been through this. This body of work makes it easier to say these sentences like, well, no, this is nothing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. When you're younger. And that's not taking away from anything. Like we're not, we're not looking at anybody's problems who are listening to this and saying, we don't think your darkness is truly dark and we do not think your problems are truly. Truly. Yeah, not at all.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean it's. It's real and in the moment it's painful. It's whatever it is, whatever you're facing at the time. And you just get in this survival mode.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

There's so many times where I was just in survival mode. I really feel like there was just this huge season of my life where it was simply survival mode and I. And I just failed and failed and failed and failed over and over again and would get in one, you know, get out of one bad situation, get into another bad situation, get out of, you know, just to continually fail. I don't know. I mean, it's Yeah. I. My mind goes in 20 different directions. So. Sorry. Cut that out.

[A]

We don't cut that.

[B]

We don't cut that. We cut that part out.

[A]

But like that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Unfortunately for us. Like that. And then for me, what's terribly devastating, what is intriguing to me in a. Is that you reached places in these seasons. You're not there now that you go, I'm done with this race.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can't do this anymore. So it's not like we're going. You always knew that you were stronger than every other person. No, we're not saying that at all.

[B]

No, absolutely not. I. I never felt like a strong person.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

When I was going through things in my teen years, I didn't feel strong at all. I feel strong now because I know I'm strong because I know that I can make the changes. And it's up to me on how I see or how I view things or how I'm gonna go at things or how I'm gonna handle things. And I don't get me wrong, I still handle plenty of things wrong.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm still gonna walk into different seasons, I'm sure, and completely screw up or, you know, handle it wrong. It's normal. Right. It's like. But I think another. Well, I don't. I know another big thing is learning to give myself grace. And that took me a very long time to learn.

[A]

Okay, very good.

[B]

To know that I'm gonna fail again. I'm not going to handle things right again. But I now love myself enough, and I now give myself enough grace. And that's what gets me through, to know, like, hey, I'm going to screw up, but I'm not going to beat myself up over it. I'm going to give myself grace because I'm going to give you grace. I'm going to give everyone else grace. Why would I not give it to myself? And it took me a very long time to learn to love myself and to give myself grace. For whether it was the things that I went through, that I created or the things that I went through that I had no control over, I deserve grace for all of it. I'm given grace by God for all of it.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So why am I not giving myself this grace? And that's one thing that's really, really helped me in life, is learning to give myself grace.

[A]

Let me ask, because I would say one of the hardest things we face here, to feed my sheep, people that are serving, people that are receiving whatever it is, the inability of them to give grace to themselves.

[B]

Yeah. It's hard.

[A]

It's hard.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. I think we just beat ourselves up over everything we do. I mean, I. I did that for a long time. For a really long time. I beat myself over why. You know, all the things. I don't know. I guess it's just kind of a natural. I don't know.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

I. I just. I just did. And I. You know, I would think you try to almost kind of find fault. It's like something happens in your life, and then you want to find out, well, why did this happen to me? I think one definitely, you need to remove that why did this happen to me? Mindset.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think that's. I think that's very important because bad things happen to a lot of people, and bad things happen to good people. Um, but just kind of, hey, this happened. How am I going to tackle it? But just. I don't even know where I was going with it.

[A]

That makes two of us. I'm just kidding.

[B]

That's what happens when you get old.

[A]

No, no, but like that. So, like, in these things, grace, which is. Is something that it's. It's a gift for all of us that is not earned. We know all these sayings. We know. And they're not sayings. They're not cute. We can go into Hobby Lobby. Sorry, that's free advertisement for Hobby Lobby. But we can go in a Hobby Lobby, and there's going to have five jillion signs that I can put around the house. Or. Yeah, I wouldn't. Okay, but you could put around your house. I'd say, oh, God loves you no matter what. Grace is yours. Whatever you. Okay, Even this, we can look at that. And it's decently easy for us to afford it. To others, like, I'll be like, laura, you're all right. Like, you're just perfect the way you are. And we would leave this. And I'm going, man, this is great, Bobby. You're. You're just. You're all right. These mistakes that happened, you're just exactly how. And then. But me, when I go home and I look at Jeff, because I know Jeff, in and out. Okay? And I'm gonna go, man, what in the world were you doing here, dude? You know, and what are you doing here? And you. Look, it's hard to afford yourself the same grace that we. We deserve, but God himself. What I find is interesting to me is. And I say this in my head, Bobby going to get sick of hearing it because I have to say these I'm not smart. So I say things over and over and over. God's good and pleasing thoughts about me are innumerable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They outnumber the grains of sand. So at night, I would look at myself and I say that God's good and pleasing thoughts about me are innumerable. It doesn't say with a disclaimer on that. When I do this correctly, When I do this correctly. When I do this correctly, when I know it says, his good and pleasing thoughts about me are innumerable. They outnumber grains of same. If I took an evaluation of what Jeff's good and pleasing thoughts about myself on a particular day, they are very numerable at best. I would go, you know what? I didn't really have a whole lot of good thoughts about Jeff today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why I'm going because I. I can see. And even like Paul, you said, you know, I've learned how to do it when I have a lot, when I have a little, it's not okay. Even Paul, like, it'd be neat if there was a Bible verse that would kind of align us with that. That was sarcasm. Because there is. It says, I know how to make it through whether I have a lot or whether I have none. And it's not athletic poster 101. I can do all things Christ Jesus, who created me. It is that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whether I have a lot. Great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whether I have nothing, whether I feel like everybody loves me or nobody loves me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The truth is still the same. That the power that keeps me going, the thing that is, is this grace that. That Christ himself came and he died, that we may have life and life abundantly, you know? So I like this. This adventure. And it's a constant. It's a constant activity to keep going. I can find myself very easily going, jeff, you're bad. Jeff, you're weak. Jeff, you're not this good enough of a leader of this. You're going to mess up here all the time.

[B]

Yeah, same, same. Yeah.

[A]

It's everybody. Everybody. It's not a place that you just finally get to and you're like, whoo, I'm finally made it here, and now I don't have to be. Life.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It doesn't go away.

[B]

You have to remember it's a con. You're constantly growing. There's there. There's not a point that I've gotten to where I'm like, yep, I'm living this great life now. Everything's great. I've got this great perspective. Everything's going to be wonderful. I, It's a constant process of, you know, making sure my mindset is in check. Making sure I'm, you know, trying to look at things in a different light. I have to remind myself all the time, love all the little reminders. And I, I've. I don't know if my brain has got me there or God has got me leaning in that direction, but I feel like I'm constantly being reminded from little things. I may see something or hear something or read something. I'm like, yep, that's a little reminder to me of, you know, be gentle to myself or whatever it is, whatever I'm needing to be reminded of. I think that's really important. So agreed.

[A]

And so like me, what I have, like, so I'm, I'm very visual in my learning style. Okay. So I, I see things. Okay. And so they remind me of things or they teach me things. And I have put in front of me like Bobby has to look at it in my desk where I have to look at all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Little visual reminders of seasons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then that remind me of the moment I'm in. Now I have a little shelf in my office that I look at every day. That is, that's my shelf of death. Okay. So all the things that I have a, a frame of death, which is all my reminders of my life are in that I look at it constantly on the shelf or different moments of seasons. Some I didn't like as much and some I did, but they are part of me.

[B]

So true. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's why I love to look back. I, you know, you hear sometimes people say, you know, you don't ever want to look back. Don't look back in the rearview mirror. I say look back in the mirror.

[A]

It's crap.

[B]

Yeah. Because. But you have to look back in that rearview mirror with a better perspective.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You have to look back with a better mindset. Because I love to look back at my past and all the frappy things. I mean, I will revisit a lot of really hard things in my life, but to me, that's a reminder. That's a. I survived that. I'm okay. That was really hard. It was a really rough season or whatever happened, and it was hard. And sometimes, you know, like I even said I could cry. We start talking about certain things. I may still even cry over it, I think more I, I almost cry for I can put myself in her shoes, you know, and remember 17 year old Laura and What she was going through, you know, 14 year old Laura and what she was going through, I can kind of put myself there. And that's, that's what probably brings up the tears and there's a lot of emotion there. It's not like anything that I've just said. Look at me, I'm healed. Everything's absolutely wonderful in my mind and everything. It's a, it's. And it's kind of like the fear based thing too. I get a lot of people that say not to go back to the road trip real quick, but just kind of as an example, you know, aren't you scared going on the road? You're so fearless and. No, I'm not. I'm. I am not fearless at all. I just face my fear and I, I push past that fear every time I take off. I'm scared to death before I go on a road trip by myself. Every single time.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I go.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

So like with my life too, I look back and I look at other things. I don't know. I, I love to kind of. I've challenged myself to kind of face fears or I will look back on certain things and remind myself of, you know, look at, look, I made it through this season. Look at what I'm upset over now. But look at what I've made it through. Look at what God has pulled me out of and where I am now. Amazing.

[A]

Agreed. So like that some of the stuff that I have gotten to experience. What if climbing a mountain. Okay, so done some big mountains, whatever. It doesn't matter. Okay. And the people. Oh, man. Golly. You're really used very juvenile. You're very brave. No, I was scared crapless.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Like this. Then why did you do that? Yeah, because I wanted to meet me.

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

I wanted to be introduced to Jeff and see who he really was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so like that. So then they would go, why do you. Okay, like for me, maybe you would understand. Nobody would. Okay. I think maybe we're kindred spirits on this. I don't go to a mountain. I don't go choose to go climb a mountain. A mountain whispers my name and calls me to it because it has something that either I need to leave on the mountain or it needs to. To give me a gift while I'm there and let me meet something of me. Okay. So like, I don't. Oh, I'm gonna go climb this. No, I haven't had a whisper of a mountain in a little bit because I've been scared. I Got. I met parts of me on the last mountain that really, really scared me to no ends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So, like, similar but different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On the last mountain in Bolivia. Coming down, it was so horrible and miserable. I was by myself, all alone, didn't speak the language. And I reached a point that I said, well, my Spanish is terrible. This is all I knew how to say. As no masa saki estoto. Here is what I thought I said in my head. And I know that I said, here is where the journey ends.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And he said, no. I said, as morbido es no problemo. No moss.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm ready to die right here, and I'm fine with it. Leave me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was done. Like, I couldn't go anymore. I was done, and I didn't want to go anymore. And. And that was. That was. That. And. And it. He. Then we sat there for a minute. We don't speak any language. And I was. I was satisfied. I took the ropes off, and I was going to stay there in deep, deep snow and let night come. And I'm embarrassed to say I was. I was done.

[B]

No. So what made you. What was that turning point?

[A]

You know what? There was no turning point, other than the fact that the guy, probably because he didn't want to not get his tip for getting me on the mountain, he started dragging me and put the rope back around me, started dragging me. And he made it because I was about three times his size, because Bolivian mountain guides are little.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And after about, I don't know, 10 minutes of this, I'm like, I'm not letting this dude drag me because he's gonna. We're gonna end up killing both of us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then I got up and I'm like, no reason. I didn't really want to go on. Okay. It was simply. I'm not going to allow my death to cause the death of him as well.

[B]

You know, you talking about that makes me think of Feed my sheep.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Where so many people, I'm sure, are ready to give up.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And you guys are here saying, no, you're not. You're not going to give up.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

And in different ways, I think a lot of people just need people just to show up, just to be there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you guys are not only there, you're also providing all these services for them, and you're feeding them and you're loving them, and you're talking to them, calling them by name, and just being there for these people when they're at that moment where you were on that mountain.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Need community and people.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that's another thing is finding the right 100%.

[A]

So then out of that, okay, simply. And I would agree, okay, so like this, they would go, oh, there must have been some heroic turn within Jeff's life. Absolutely. Not that it was this single individual he just refused to let me lay at that moment. Whether his motives or not were pure or not, I couldn't tell you. Yeah, it doesn't matter. But he said, at this moment, I am not going to let you die here, but if you are, we're going to do it together.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And so he did that. You would say out of that if there was not somebody else with me on the mountain. Yeah, we ain't having this conversation right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Community and belonging. Having others in that dark moment that don't. You know what. In what he might would have helped 0 is if he'd have said, well, he couldn't speak my language. But if he could have, you know, if he'd have said, oh, Jeff, you should have trained more. You came up here. I knew it from the start that you weren't in the shape to get there and back. And I'd have gone, well, that's helping me zero now or you deserve this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Because this is what you got. You made the decision you got here, and this is exactly the ramifications for your decisions. Would that have helped me any?

[B]

No. And that's the same with, say, all the people that are here. No one knows their story unless you take the time to listen to their story.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And just like I say, there's certain things in my past where I know that I made the decision or I put myself in this situation. Who knows the backstory on why I ended up in that situation? I may have made that decision right then, but who knows my mindset or the things that I had been through before. So the same thing with all these people, whether they're. It was them growing up, whether it was drugs, whether it was mental health. I know a lot of it is either drugs or mental health or something gets a grasp on people or their family or the church or whatever it is, whatever these people have been through, no one knows their story. Unless you actually sit down and really hear their story.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Then you don't know what people are facing. And then if you're just like, well, I'm just going to give up on you, because, look, you're the one making the Decision. And you're the one that keeps taking the drugs, or you're the one that keeps. Yeah, you keep making this stupid decision and doing this for yourself.

[A]

Hot. It's.

[B]

It's not just like a quick life change. If somebody's addicted to drugs, they can't just be like, okay, I'm stopping.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

It doesn't work that way. So, like, something gets a hold of their life and a hold of their mind and a hold of their heart and a hold of everything about them, and then it's a. It's a slow process to change. And we need. That's where we need our community to just not give up on us because it's huge.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Because if everybody around you is giving up on you, then you're like, okay, well, then I'm gonna give up on myself.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Because I can't even find anybody to love me or I can't even find anybody that doesn't even. Whether that guy was dragging you along because he still wanted his tip or what, he didn't give up on you.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And even if. Even if. Maybe some people don't have the best motive. And I. I feel like, yeah, I've come across people that probably didn't have the best motive, but they didn't give up on me.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And to me, that meant. I don't care. I don't even care what their motive was, as long as it wasn't for them to hurt me.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

You know, whatever it was it is, they didn't give up on me. So they. They see me as a person. They see me as a life that matters. And to know that I'm valued by someone makes a difference.

[A]

It matters.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then like that. Like so. Well, if. If you would like. I'm learning more and more and more. The more I do this world here, the more I understand what we're talking about here is the number one thing we must be providing. Jackets. Good. Okay. That's great. That's a byproduct. Food, good. Laundry, good. All of these things. They're good then. I'm not saying that they're good. The number one thing we provide is this community. That somebody is not alone in these dark, dark moments.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Because, I mean, we've all. We. We've been to these places. Every person has been to a very dark place, whether they acknowledge it or not. I don't care what your life has been. It has been difficult. But that you've got somebody. Because I would Say, the number one thing that people that we. We work with here is lack of community or belonging. They feel families given up on them. Whatever significant other, the spouse or this or that. You know, a lot of our people have made decisions that have ramifications. Don't have my kids anymore. Don't have my family anymore. Don't have all of these things where it's really easy for somebody who's not there to go, ah, you deserve everything that you've got, and sit right there and go ahead and die alone. No, it's.

[B]

And it's. It's understandable. I've dealt with people in my life that really struggle with mental health. I've dealt with, you know, people that struggle with drugs, bunch of different things. And I. I also understand where these other people, whether it's family or friends, at some point, have to set a boundary for them as well. So I do see that side of things too. Like, if you've got a family member that is a drug addict and really struggling with drugs, eventually it's not maybe them not loving you anymore, but that's them kind of protecting themselves, saying, hey, I've got to step back. But then that's where other people can step in and help. Because these people also then have to protect themselves. Right? It's.

[A]

It.

[B]

It can be a domino effect when you're dealing with mental health, when you're dealing with drug and addiction or anything like that, any kind of addiction. So they have to protect themselves too. But then that's where the community steps in. And then you've got, you know, someone else, a stranger or a thing. Because that. My biggest thing I've always said is I share a lot about my story openly these days, whether it's talking with friends or on social media or whatever it is I'm sharing or how I'm sharing. And my biggest reason I say I like to share it, of course it's healing to me to be able to look back and talk about these things, but also because I just don't want people to feel alone. It breaks my heart to think that people feel alone whatever battle they're facing. Because when I was younger, I felt extremely alone. And that was. That was probably one of the bigger reasons why I stayed in that season for so long is because I just felt no one understands. No one's gonna understand. Just starting with being a teen mom and being in my church, they don't know they're not teen moms. You know, they kind of are pushing me out. You know, they don't want me in the church. They're embarrassed at me or whatever. You know, just starting at something little to, you know, I don't want to step back into the church when I get older because none of them have faced what I've faced.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Early. And I, I, I just felt lonely. So I, I have this almost like hyper focus of I just don't want people to feel alone. I don't want somebody to feel alone. So if I can share my story and say, hey, I was in a relationship where I was physically abused and I, you know, and I'll share my story. To me, it's, you know, again, sharing it for a couple different reasons. But one of the big reasons is if I can openly and vulnerably share that story. It's scary to share things like that openly. Right. Somebody's going to judge me. Somebody's going to whatever. But sharing those things I love because I know that I'm opening that up in somebody's who may not share, they may never share it, or it may get them to share whatever it is for them to go. Whoever's maybe in a domestic violence situation right now or has been in the past, and it's still hurting them, whatever it is for them just to go, okay, I'm not alone. Like, that is the greatest feeling, is to not feel alone in your struggles or in whatever happened to you. And I, I, I feel like I'll live the rest of my life just trying to make people not feel alone.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll tell you along that. And that's, that's spot on. We didn't even know we were going to talk about that. And if you were going to say, hey, we want to have a vision discussion of what feed my sheep must be about. This is what this is. Yeah, it must be this. Like the other stuff we do, they're byproducts. We'll figure out how to serve meals the best. Yeah, that's great. We'll figure out how to do laundry. Yeah, great. Okay. We'll figure out transportation. How can we make sure a world that is so lonely and lost know that they are not that? And then that they're people that care. And then because you can't possibly ever make the step until you realize that, to know even more than that there is a God that will never let you be alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you don't see it somewhere, you're going to go, no, there ain't no God that cares about me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because nobody else does. And why And I don't care about myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then why would God care about me?

[B]

Yeah. No, seeing God through other people.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Us being his hands and feet, seeing the work of other people and then. Yeah. Just seeing God through people's actions and just loving on them. Yeah. And like you said, like, with the, you know, anybody can cook a meal, anybody can do a load of laundry, but the real work is the sitting down and the talking and the communicating and making someone feel like a person and being there for them, which I know, again, is what you guys do. That's huge, because that makes them not feel alone. If you do someone's laundry, they're still going to feel alone.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You're providing them a meal. Okay. You provided them a meal. They're still alone. They're still going to walk away alone with that meal. But if you look at them in their eyes and you're like, hey, Jeff, how are you today? You know, whatever it is, even just that, that communication of looking at someone in the eyes or smiling at them or a simple smile, I mean, I could have a really, really bad day and have someone walk by me and just look at me and smile and wave, and instantly I kind of don't feel alone. I mean, it's. There are some very simple things, but, you know, then you get down to kind of the deeper stuff. Like I said, you know, there's.

[A]

You know what's funny? Just that we're doing a podcast. We're talking about all kind of stuff. Okay. We're in the middle of a conversation, and then you looked at me and you said you were doing this at point of reference. Jeff, how are you today? Yeah, you know what I did? My heart skipped half a beat, and I took a short breath going, oh, crap. Yeah, she really wants to know how I am today. You're. But it's that powerful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A true ask of, how are you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this. And I'm here with you. I am not the answer to everything at all. You know, and like that, it's. I'll tell you, here's a story that I saw yesterday. Total different, but it's the same. I won't say any names because I won't embarrass anybody with a. A person that came in and he was frustrated or this person was frustrated because they had not received a. A mail delivery that they thought they should have gotten. Okay. And we're trying to articulate that you didn't have a mailbox here. Okay. So we. We were Going down this path of. Of this and. And getting very frustrated because you could tell something was going on. And he had mailed it. And he said to me of this person, well, I know my mother mailed me my birthday present, and y'all didn't get it to me. Okay. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, do you happen to know how we could get a hold of your mom and let's check, because if I lost your birthday present, I don't want to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So he did know his mom's phone number. And we call her and she is in whole other state in the Northeast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I say, hey, so. And so I am here with, I think your son. And I am. Here's who I am. I'm at feed my sheep and blah, blah, blah. She doesn't even know and whatever. And your son would like to ask you about this package that you mailed for his birthday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the mom was ecstatic because she hasn't heard from her son.

[B]

I know. It hurts my heart.

[A]

Yeah, it does. Like, so this. Like, you can hear the story and you can feel the hurt. Okay. And here's the guy. He's still mad because he. His package ain't here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Hey. You know, and so it's so good to hear from you. I'm so glad. Okay. And so we're trying to. Because he's having a frustrating mental moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. At this time. So trying to nicely articulate to the moment. We're watching after your son. And he's all right at the moment. But not overstepping because he's a grown man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to go. So all that to get to. He says, I remember this. His birthday is October 5th. Okay. I know you mailed my birthday package to me, and these people won't get it to me. Mom says, and he says, I want you to tell. Because we're on speakerphone. Tell them what address you mailed it to. So they have to give it to me. And then she says this sentence. She says, well, I don't have an address to mail it to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Meaning I didn't mail you a birthday present. So then he didn't really want to hear that answer. Know. And so it wasn't quite. But you go, okay, makes sense. And then he says, then there was different other relation stuff. And then out of that, then you hear. And you're not even going to believe this. So. And so another individual. They won't even let me see my. He has a child of his own on my birthday. Then you're going. Okay, here's what's going on. There's no pack but the package he was supposed to get on his birthday from his mom, and he wasn't able to go see his mother. All these things colliding at this moment and you're going, I'd be pretty pissed off and alone, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I'm sitting here and need to learn anything, yell at Jeff for a little bit. That's fine. That. That place in that moment, not saying we scored a home run with that. And out of that, that he walked out of there going, oh, life is great now. And no.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We didn't leave that moment of that. And then out of that, I'll still. Like last night, he was not terribly happy. And his mom said three times at the end of the conversation, you know how much I love you. So and so. Long, long pause. I didn't like the pause too much. And I was like, I want you to know, I do know her name. I'm not going to say it. I want you to know he has a permanent address here that has a key that can be locked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can mail him stuff here. I will make sure he gets anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. That's so great to hear that. I'm so appreciative of that. It's good to know so and so you know how much I love you and I would do anything for you. Again, awkward, quiet pause, and then. Okay, bye. I love you. Don't call. Done. Okay. But out of that, did we solve anything? No. Was he alone? Absolutely, he's alone.

[B]

It sounds like that's all he can focus on.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Yeah. Which is hard. I, you know, one big thing I also understand, and this is kind of going off something different, too, but, you know, when I say focus on your perspective and, you know, change your mindset and do all these things, I, I also understand because I have dealt with it. Some. Some really close people to me have fought mental health issues, major mental health issues. And it. I, I also understand that if you're struggling with mental health, you can't just, like, I can shift my mindset.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And in mental health, it's. It doesn't mean that this is a horrible thing about you. It means that you may have to look at things differently or approach things differently or, you know, get on some medication or face thing. You're going to face things differently. I do understand that there. And there's that grace for people who have the mental health issues that can't, you know, that are battling depression or anxiety or whatever it is where they can't just say, okay, I'm going to focus on the good things. Okay, I'm going to, you know, do this. Because no matter what, they're going to always. They're. Something in their mind is going to constantly bring up these horrible things and beat them up about it. So I do, I do understand. But then that goes back to also kind of giving grace to other people. The more we understand people, the more we understand mental health, the more we understand addiction, the more we understand that we're just humans just trying to survive in this world together, the more we understand that, you know, we can give more grace to people and then kind of understand maybe that guy's mindset of he's really super focused on this, you know. But then his poor mom is probably just absolutely heartbroken, right? But out of that phone call, some great things happened because she got to hear her son's voice. Who knows how long it's been since she, you know, she's heard from him. Some really great things came from that which you and I may be able to see that he may still not be able to see that. And hopefully one day he can.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But depending on where he is mentally, depending on where his, his mind is at the moment, he may not even be able to grasp any of that good stuff. But you being there and you guys continually showing up for him, hopefully one day, you know, or getting him help or whatever it is that he needs, you know, either a mindset shift or help or mental health help, whatever it is, you know, that can eventually kind of help him.

[A]

But agreed like that. And like I've been through different chapters or seasons. I don't know, I would say chapters, you know, that things were pretty tough. Like life wasn't going the way I would have liked. And in the midst of that, so I would view myself as decently intelligent and trying to figure out how to navigate this and having enough self recognition to realize I'm not. Well, okay, so at least that clarity of going, I'm not all right.

[B]

And not everybody has that.

[A]

Okay, agreed. So I'm. I'm not that I'm not a step above, but in that moment to at least real like so like me, I always. Everything's a metaphor to backpacking. But like, yeah, the first thing you do if you're backpacking them or anything, if you. Survival 101, okay? Survival 101. The minute you realize you are or even think I am lost, the first thing you do is you stop. You stop moving you stop going. You stop and you try to. You just take a break and really assess where you are, but you stop.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. In the minute, you realize you're lost because you are not getting yourself unlost if you are lost. It doesn't work that way. Okay. So generally, like, you look at all these people that, oh, they're lost on a backpacking trail, they're going to find them dead within short order of not too far from where they were because they're going to walk in a giant circle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And end up. We don't orient. So mine is that recognition of being able to say, crap, I don't have a clue of where the fog is too thick. I don't really know. And to stop for a second and call out for help. So, like, in the woods, you would do three whistles on a loud thing, and anybody's backpacking would hear three whistles because it travels a long way. Somebody's in a mess over there. It doesn't matter where you're at. Then you would blow one whistle to let that person know, I have heard your call. And then the person who knows where they are will try to find the one who's blowing three. So you'd hear one whistle, and then the third whistle would call over here. And you know how to orient to go to that. And you blow and let this person know. Yeah, somebody's coming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. But if you keep moving, nobody can find you. If you're not putting out calls. Okay. So that. That self recognition of, I'm lost, I can't get myself solely out of this spot on my own. I need help is not a sign of weakness.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At all. Okay. And so out of that. So then you go, okay. So in those moments where you go, okay, and I am lost and I'm trying to figure things out and. Okay. And I don't really know. I used to. And it still does. It drove me crazy in that chapter. And it was well intended and good, meaning people that cared about me. They would say sentences that were good. They would say, jeff, just find what makes you happy and go do those things. And in the midst of the. The fog and the chaos, I was like, what the f. Yeah. Don't you think if I could figure out what made me happy right now, don't you think I would be going doing it?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

That is the most absurd sentence I've ever heard. And how dare you say that to me at this moment? Okay. And I'd be like, you got to be stinking kidding Me?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Go do something that's going to make me happy. If it was that simple in life, then there would not be a sad person walking around everywhere. Because everybody's going to do what? No, it's not that simple.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. I wasn't asking for somebody to say, hey, do this and you're going to be happy. Figure out what makes you happy and go do it. Hey, we're not saying that, you know, What I'm saying is somebody to say, I don't have a clue. But guess what? I'm not going to let you sit here alone. We're together.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That community.

[A]

Community.

[B]

And for us, too, you know, if there's a way to be proactive, you know, just like we were saying with the, you know, me knowing I'm going into the empty nest season, but just to kind of be proactive, if you know that you're struggling with mental health struggles, you know that you have a hard time with certain things when you're in that good season, to stay consistent with whatever it is that's going to help you to hopefully kind of be proactive, to not bring you back down into that cloud. Agree that you get into where. When you're. It's. It's been described to me as kind of, you know, you get into this place. Place, and it doesn't matter what anybody says, whatever happens around you, it doesn't matter whether something great is continually happening around you when you're in this depression, depressive state. Nothing's going to change it.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Nothing's going to change it in that moment. And I don't even know what brings them out of it, but in that moment, I mean, I could be like, hey, come on, get up. Go for a walk outside. It's going to be great. When they're there, they're there. So maybe even kind of, you know, being proactive and kind of helping, but also having the. Maybe even being proactive by having the right community to be able to recognize when you're having that hard time, you know, to kind of say, hey, I'm going to drag him out here.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Or I'm going to show up and I'm just going to sit. I'm just going to sit with him, whatever it is. Yeah. I mean, but again, even there are some people that are just so far into that place and have been in that place for years, which is probably a lot of the people that you guys work with here at Feed My Sheep. You know, that's a dip it's different because they could have, they could be in this valley for 10, 20 years.

[A]

Long time.

[B]

Yeah, it's for a very long time. That's all they know. This is where they're comfortable. Or they're so far down in there that you're not going to even get that one good point to say, hey, let's be consistent. Let's find whatever's working for you and try to kind of work with that. You may not even be able to get there to that place. But you know what? You can still love them because somewhere in there is still a person.

[A]

Well, greed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like we, we look and man, we're going all over the place.

[B]

We are. This is a normal conversation with me.

[A]

This is like, like I'll fix it. This makes complete sense to me. Like this is how every.

[B]

I hope anyone can keep up because I do. I will go from like here to here to here to here to here. Just.

[A]

But this is very linear in my. This is normal. Like so like. And I'm trying to even think, oh.

[B]

I love that we're keeping up with.

[A]

Well, like the path because there's two different ways. Because like we've said several different things. You know, as some of this is if I'm heading off on a journey, if you're going out in your van. So there's two fault, two parts of what we just said there. If you're going out in your van for a great expedition and it runs out of gas, that's on you because you needed to put gas in before you even started the trip. You need to before you start on some of these journeys. We can get ourselves in messes because we didn't go with the proper tools that we needed to have before we even set off. So like if Jeff said, hey, I'm going to go backpacking in Bolivia, okay. A, you better have a backpack. B, you better make sure it's packed with everything you possibly can need and double check it. You better have all the equipment in place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Before you even take off on this thing because that's a big thing you're heading into. So we sometimes we end up in places because Jeff just took off into the woods and didn't even know where he was. And oh, it was so cute. Now you didn't have all the tools and all of this stuff, but when you end up in these places, irregardless came it's the last thing you want is for somebody to come along and going, you're an idiot.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

I'm lost. I know I shouldn't have got here. I don't need to hear that right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And to go. Let's just figure this out. And the other thing, what's intriguing to me is I found. And because you and I are probably similar in outdoors is where I got a good. Somebody sent me one that I think you might would like that's up on my wall about why the wilderness is such a magnificent place for some to go find God.

[B]

Oh, I, Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And so like it's just, it's an ancient Jewish proverb. But the, the son tells his father and the, the, the son is like, I go to the wilderness to find God. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the father's like, but son, God is the same in the wilderness. And he's in, in our house and he's in all these places. You don't have to go to the wilderness to find God. He's not different there than he is here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the son says, no, God is the same everywhere. But in the wilderness I am different.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I'm like, bingo. I'm like, that's exactly it. I, I go, but God. I'm not saying God is different. Yeah, but I am. And I can go find him there because I'm different. But what I, what I like in all this. So I've always. My, my life is. Even though it is with a whole lot of people, then there's a whole lot of quiet as well. Like I. People, people, people. And then I gotta go, I gotta get away. And so then I go off into the woods or some form of that where there's nobody around. It's just me. And then it's just I go and then I find some peace and I come back. But it's always been that way. And so life. But for me, what's been interesting is, is a compass always. Never ever, ever, ever, ever would I go on a boat, would I go hunting, would I go anything. I don't even trust GPS because the batteries can go out. Compass is true. Okay. If you got a compass that works, it's going to tell you which way is north. Is going to tell you which way is south, it's going to tell you east and west. Yeah, it is true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's amazing to me, I. I remember I was 14 year old boy in Lake Charles, Louisiana. And yes, my parents were goofy enough. I had a boat and I was out in the bay, out by the Gulf. Okay, that's what you do. I mean I knew this lake, I knew this Lake is. It was saltwater, so it was a bay in Texas, but in Louisiana would be a lake. So I was out there and I was fishing. I knew this area. I was game. And a big fog storm came in, and I couldn't see anything. And so all these things that I had used to navigate, I didn't have any more. But I was like, I know where I'm going. So I went. And next thing I know, there was land where there wasn't supposed to be land. Somehow land had got itself in the wrong place in my mind, but it didn't get itself in the wrong place. I was lost. And all of a sudden I'm like, crud. I don't know where it was. And you know what I did at that moment? I took out the compass and I looked at it because I know I needed to head southeast. Okay, Southeast. If I did that, that would put me to the shore, and then it would get me to the boat ramp across this big lake. And I look on the compass, and my compass was broken because it was showing southeast to be the exact wrong direction that it was supposed to be. So I'm like, oh, a stinking compass broke. Of all luck, you know, Now I'm stuck in a fog. My compass is broken. So I didn't trust the compass. And you know what? I knew, I was so sure that southeast was the exact opposite direction. The compass was telling me that I kept going north because I knew that's where southeast was. Oh, okay. Now all of that, everybody can listen. And you would know the compass was never broken.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was telling me the true direction I should go and where safety and protection was. And still yet I chose not to go that direction.

[B]

Sounds familiar.

[A]

It does. At Life 101, when things get the most foggy and the most dark, the number one human tendency is to go, no, no.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everything else is wrong. I am 100% right on this, and I'm going to continue this direction because I know it's so right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And so I was wrong. Life. I am lost. The number one thing I want to do, I'm going to pick up pace and I'm going to keep walking in the direction I'm 100% sure is right. It's not. And what we're supposed to do on those is either a. If you brought a compass, which, luckily for us in life, we have this compass, which is. It always, always, always points to true north. It is never wrong. And that is the Bible, and that is life. But when things go bad, for me, or I don't like where I'm at. I guarantee I'm going, look at this. It's telling me to go the wrong direction. This is not even right.

[B]

I know better.

[A]

I know better. And so I'm going to keep going. This thing is off. I'm not even going to look at it for a bit, because I. And then we keep going. And then when we're lost, we want to keep going even faster in a direction because we know all the answers. In reality, God's saying, stop for a second. Stop. Stop and listen. And there's help right there. And you blow the whistle and you go, okay, I admit it, okay? I'm not the Great Woodsman. I don't know where I am. And like, even today, smaller scale, I went. My son works at the Capitol in Texas. Okay. He's good at city. I'm not real good at city. And I end up on the street. I don't even know why. I couldn't find parking. And so I'm texting him and I'm. He didn't do anything wrong. And so I'm frustrated. I'm like. He's like, where are you? And I'm like, I could see the capital. And so I don't know streets. I should look at streets. And I'm like. He's like, what street are you on? I don't know. Okay. I'm in Austin. And he said, where are you at? I said, I'm on the west side of the Capitol.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because the sun's on the other side of it. I know we're in the morning. And he's like, how did you get on the west side of the Capitol? I don't know, but I know that's where I am.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I can see this thing, and it tells me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he says, don't move. I'll come get you. Okay. You're sure you're on the west side of the Capitol? And I'm like, yes, there is. The sun's on the other side. It's in the morning. I know I'm on the west. And there's some people doing some construction over here. Said, stay by the construction. Yeah. And I waited. And he came. And I'm going, it's this. Yeah, you know what? The minute somebody else came, okay. I was no longer lost. I wasn't found where I needed to go. Both of us. I'm like, okay. He's like, where do you need to go? And I'm like, it's. It's e. Something, something, something office. And he's like, oh, that's on the far other side. I think we need to go down. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Great. Well, let's go.

[B]

When you're talking about your story in Louisiana reminded me of you getting so lost and then not trusting the compass that you had. But just kind of the thing that kept popping in my head was, no matter how far you would have gone in that wrong direction, it's never too late for you to turn back around and go in the right direction and follow the compass in the right way. Because I just think that's another big reminder for us of a lot of times people get moving in their own direction because they're trusting their own mind or they're trusting, you know, this compass is broken. I'm not trusting that whatever it is, whatever it's taking them, or you're driving off into the wrong direct. Whatever it is, you steer off in the wrong direction. And no matter how far you go in that direction, God is always there waiting and ready to help you turn back and go.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

The other direction. So, you know, it's absurd.

[A]

Like, in it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is the compass going to go, guess what? I ain't going to work for Jeff anymore because he didn't trust me. I'm going to show him a lesson.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Absolutely not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The compass is. Its single job is to point in.

[B]

The right direction when we're ready to trust it.

[A]

When we're ready to trust it. Amen. And so you go on. That it is always true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm just not always ready to believe. It's truthfulness.

[B]

That is very true.

[A]

And so. And. But in that. What is beautiful on it is no matter how far I walk, no matter how far I go in the wrong direction, the compass is still always going to point me the right way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe I got a long boat ride back. Maybe I'm pathing for a long way, but it is not going to leave me there. That's life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so. Golly. Okay. I'm going to tell everybody because we're about near the end. We're going to definitely. Like. So I'm going to tell you this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This cannot be the only discussion we have on this. We've got it. Because we didn't even go into where we were going to go. We didn't even get any we. Because what we were going to do, like, out of this, I will tell you, Laura and I, one of our connection points was this is. What do you think? Three years ago. Ish. Ish.

[B]

Gosh, I don't remember.

[A]

Three, four, something. It's been a. It's been a piece ago. There was a young lady here. I won't say her name because I don't want to embarrass anybody. Whatever. Young lady here. We're not even going to go in detail on this, but this is how our conversation is. This young lady, I knew that she was 13 years old for a fact because long term, trying to get. And she was getting trafficked here at a guy that was working her. 13, 13 stinking years old, getting worked. And she would come through the line, normal stuff of the guy. Wouldn't let her talk to anybody. He wouldn't come in himself, he'd stay across the street, all that. I couldn't get anybody to help. Like nobody would interject in the story and couldn't find. Nobody couldn't find. And finally I remembered Laura because she had been in this world working with ladies that had been sex trafficked. And I somehow found her number and said, man, anything you can do to help me with this one. And she wasn't in that world per se in that way at that moment. Yeah, but that's how we kind of had met. Her number stayed up on my dry erase board for a long, long time at the. I'm visual. It's at the bottom right corner is where I can see it now in my head. And it said Laura and it had her number there. And that one like that, that young lady, we did find somebody to interject in her story at that time. Yeah, but that's kind of the. And honestly, for all of you out there, that was the context that I believed we were going to talk about. I said, you know, well, we can't not start with how we kind of got connected again, which was so and so. And that story there, and it was a terribly sad one and we have many of those. This one not more intriguing. Didn't even know we were going to talk about because everybody. The commonality we have out there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even in this room, like I can look around and go, all of us, all of us are in all kind of different seasons and some of us may think it's the greatest thing ever and some of it's the worst thing ever and some of it's bad and some of it's good and some of us have caused ourselves to be here and some of us want to blame everybody else for why we're here and all of these different things, but we're here. Yeah, we're here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we've got a choice. In all of these seasons, all of these moments, no matter how lost we are, is what's our response.

[B]

Yes, you have a choice.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Just like how we won't go deep into it because I know we're running out of time. But just like how I got involved in helping with domestic minor trafficking for a long time. I've been out of it for quite a while, but I was kind of head first and volunteering and the stuff that I was doing to it almost kind of consumed my life because how can you turn away from something like that, knowing that that's happening to people? But I was never trafficked. I've been around some really bad people and I've been in some bad situations and I've had some things happen to me when I was younger. But so I was like, to clarify, I was not trafficked, but my heart is there for females that are being abused or have been abused in some way. And so that goes back to our past and maybe the valleys that I've been in in my life, I can either choose to hang on to those and just have that victim mindset. I hate to say that because I know a lot of people sit in that victim mindset and that's where their head is. You have to get out of that mindset. To me, looking back on my past and looking back on the things that happened to me, I could, I could definitely sit in a victim mindset by the things that have happened. But I, I'm not going to because I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna let that control my life. The things that have happened to me do not control my life. They do not define me. But my reaction to them now, like now, right? Of course, yes, I, I reacted very differently. Not in a good way when everything was happening. Of course, that's the natural thing. I going to go, oh, that happened to me yesterday. I'm, you know, I'm going to be fine and fight through this. You know, it doesn't, doesn't quite work like that. It took a very long time to get there. I mean, it took me like probably decades to get there. But like, you know, being able to go back and look at my story and say, okay, now I, God, is using this, my story, to be able to help other people. Not everybody's going to do that. Not everybody's going to be as open as I am about some things and vulnerable and like talking about, I mean, just even the things that I share on social Media. I'm sure some people are like, oh my gosh, why is she saying that? You know, why is she sharing that story? You know? But to me, it's, you know, again, it's healing. I don't want people to feel alone. But it's, it's the, hey, I get to use my story for something good and whether it brings into something bigger. Like, I was so focused on helping fight against this minor trafficking for kids. That's, that's where God led me to serve and help in that way. Because of the things that I went through when I was younger and some of the things that I saw when I was younger. So that's again, kind of twisting. I get, I get to create my future. I get to buy my mindset. You know, again, I can sit in that victim mentality of man. These things happen to me, and that's why I'm having a hard time. And that's why I'm, that's why I'm mean to people. Or that's why I'm still being this way. Because I, I, I, I struggle sometimes dealing with people that kind of do have that victim mentality because I'm like, hey, we've all been through crap. Like, we've, I, I, I maybe haven't. And I probably. There are some things in my story that I will never share with anybody. I just, I'm just not gonna share.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Um, but there's a lot that I do share. So, you know, with everybody, we all may hear little pieces of people's stories, whatever we feel like sharing. Right. So in these hard things that I've been through, yeah, I could sit and just wallow in. Man, I've been through crap. I, I used to tell people when I was younger. I think one of my friends was kind of joking about it recently. She, like you used to say, I used to tell my friends, I'm just going to be in a straitjacket one day. There's no way, I swear, I feel like I'm going to cry. Like, there's no way that I can.

[A]

Have gone through the things that I.

[B]

Went through and then be okay. But I am, because I'm not, I'm not gonna sit in that victim mindset. I'm not gonna, I'm not letting these things control me. I'm taking them and I'm taking power over them, and I'm not letting them take power over my life. And so I've created this beautiful life and this beautiful mindset with God's help. This isn't just me. Yeah, I needed a lot of work to get there, to have that mindset, you know, to not feel like I wanted to take my life all the time, to not feel like, you know, I was worthless or no one, you know, I was unlovable. And look at me now. I'm 10 years on my own. I'm choosing to be single. I do not even date. I don't want to date. I. I'm happy in this place where I am right now, to where before, I felt so unloved, I felt so unlovable because of the things that happened or whatever in my life. But now I feel so dang loved on my own. I go home to myself every night, and I'm happy, and I know that I'm loved, and I don't question it. If I meet people in my life and you choose not to love me, okay, someone else is going to. Right. Like, there's just these boundaries that I set right. And I know that not everyone is going to love Laura. Not everyone is going to want to be my friend, and that's fine. So it's getting to that place, but, like, you just have to get yourself out of that. That. That mindset of that victim mindset. Because I. Again, I know I'm bouncing around with all this, like I do with everything, but I. I've come across a lot of people that are very, like, competitive or I'm the. I am the least competitive person.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. I'm not competitive at all. And I'm in a sales job, which is.

[A]

I would find that surprising. I know.

[B]

It's so weird. It's. I'm definitely never going to be topping the company because I'm not competitive. I just. I'm. You know, I want to survive and happy, and I. My. I think my, you know, finding things that make me happy are more important than chasing and making the most money. Yeah. If. If. My boss sometimes will say, hey, we've got this challenge, and whoever does this is going to, you know, get this or win this or get this bonus. And I'm like, y'all have fun. Because it just. That's. That's not what drives me in this life. What drives me is knowing what I survived and just being able to work and provide for myself, but also maybe be there for other people and serve, because I don't want people to feel, you know, hurt or whatever. But I don't know. I just. Again, going back to the. The mindset thing of, you know, people have that victim mindset. I have come across people where they're, you know, very mean or super competitive or whatever it is. And then people will say, well, they're that way because they went through a really hard time in life when they were younger. Well, you still get to make the decision to say, I'm not going to let what I went through when I was younger or now what I went through now, or what I went through a year ago or what I'm going through, whatever it is, control me. And I'm not gonna use that as a crutch. I hate saying that because it's, I'm, I'm not trying to sound insensitive, but where people will kind of hang on to that forever and hang on to that hurt and then just say, well, that's why I am the way I am. That's why I'm hardened. Because you know what? People have always treated me like crap. No one has ever loved me. Everybody has always abandoned me. Everybody's always done these things to hurt me. So now I'm, that's just why I'm a jerk. And I'm just gonna always be a jerk. I don't accept that in people at all. I think that, no, you've got to change your way. But, you know, I get it. Like, I totally get it. I'm hardened by my past, right? Because of my past is a reason, you know, why I choose to stay single. But it's, you know, me staying single and being like the happiest I've ever been in my entire life is a good thing. It's not like I'm, you know, beating down my waitress every time I go to a restaurant, you know, belittling her or something like that. I'm just on my own and I'm happy, so leave me alone. But I, I don't know, I mean, just the. I don't even know where I started with the whole victim mindset, but I think that's just huge. Just another reminder to people of, agreed, you can take whatever it is that you're going through and do with it what you want, but it's your choice and it's your choice to follow that compass that you were talking about. It's your choice to continue to be hard headed and say, nope, I'm going to continue on in this direction and keep getting lost. Or you can eventually say, okay, I trust you. God, I'm a turnaround, right? Yeah.

[A]

I mean, and there's power in that. Like, for me, there's so much freedom in understanding an event. Plus Our response determines the outcome. Like, it's not victim mentality. I had a part in the equation. I may not have liked this event, but I responded. And I'm part of the answer. I'm part of the outcome. It's not like I don't have any control over this life deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And so it's for me. And. Well, no, we're not. Because that's a whole other.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because mine is extend this for an hour.

[A]

Because, like, mine is life to me. I was at a different chapter. Was a river guide. Like, did whitewater rafting.

[B]

My gosh. That's like my dream.

[A]

Okay. And me too. I thought I was a kayak instructor and a river guy. Oh. So come on. Whatever thing.

[B]

I'm quitting my job.

[A]

It's what I'm doing. But in it, what I learned on that, because it's sort of like, well, the river and real rivers, like, so not Texas has rivers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But they're agreed. Okay. They just kind of meander.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But when you get up, like, Colorado has some bigger, more powerful rivers, like browns, browns, canyon and such of this. Like, they get the Royal Gorge big power. The river is in control. You do not control the river. Okay. So every time. What I loved and I've carried it in my life is every time you step foot on guiding a boat. We had a launch part. And so every time we're at this, you knew how many CFI cubic feet per second that the river was flowing that day. Okay. So this is the force of the river. And then you would know how to navigate. So we knew all the rapids. And you would go, okay, hey, when you're going to such and such rapid, make sure you go really hard to the left around such and such a rock. You had to thought that. But in that, okay, I was in control, but I am not defeating the river. The river is taking me where it wants me to go. I'm just trying to navigate within the river.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is the powerful force of life. And so, like this, I've learned, okay. That the river is powerful. Okay. And there's moments I can paddle against the current at certain different junctures and go against that, but I'm not going that way. It's going to take me where it's going to take me. And I love that. That's life to me is I can control the strokes and I know where I need to go, and I can navigate within that. And the better I do it, the more enjoyable the ride is and the. The worse I do that and do not paddle when I need to paddle, I hit rocks, the boat flips over. All kind of bad things happen. It wasn't the river's fault.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It wasn't the river's fault.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I can sit there and I'm in this river and it's freezing cold, and I'm going down a rapid and I'm about to drown. Okay. And it does me 0 good to be sitting there whining about, why does this river have to be so cold and why does it have to be going so fast? Doesn't matter. Now you're in it. Okay. So you go like that. It's. What do you got do I got to get back in another boat. I got to find my boat again. We're going to flip it over. We're going to get back in, and we're going to keep paddling.

[B]

If it's a new boat.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

That's okay.

[A]

And everybody. And in that, the number one rule it. If you were rafting, because there was. You would go in pods of groups, so you'd have three or four together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. The best guy was in the back. And then if somebody. A boat flipped over, you didn't just sit there and go, oh, everybody instantly change course and go. We got to get everybody in a boat and then worry about everything else from there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You stop. Okay. And so that's. That's life in general. So out of this. So all of this, like, we. Very similar mindset. Life is tough. Make no doubt about it.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Okay. So, like, and we're not. We're not looking, but hopefully you're out there and you're going. You're in a great chapter. Great. Good. You're in. You're in really, really darkness. Okay. Not so great. But to hear, you know what, you're not alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In that. And what's interesting to me, like, as we've had this discussion, you have a similar mannerism that I do is several times, in some of the most difficult moments of the discussion, you always touch your left wrist. Okay. So I've got this on my left wrist. So, like, if I'm ever. This is my reminder of life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And so if things are really going tough for me, I always will touch my left wrist because it is a reminder of things that have occurred, that various things. But it's a calming deal for me. It's. I was like. Every time he said something and you said, I talked about life.

[B]

It's funny. I've Never. I'd never wreck. I'd never. I didn't know I did that.

[A]

Well.

[B]

I have some scars on my wrist where I. I tried to overdose myself on medication and then I tried to slit my wrists. I have scars going in both directions because I even remember healing what I think if I. If I do it this way or this way. Yeah. And so recently I actually got these.

[A]

I was going to. That's our next discussion. I was going. I wonder what that.

[B]

Cuz I just recently got it because I. To me, it's a reminder. This is me and my kids. Okay. I thought like, you know, getting pregnant at 17 for one was extremely difficult. And again, that can be a whole different discussion. Might son's dad ended up in a mental hospital when My son was 2 months old. I mean, it was a wild ride from that point forward. But these are my reminders. This is me and my kids and just kind of, to me it's like God's grace. It's a reminder of. This is when I wanted to give up in my life. And this was one of those days where I just did not want to live. And I wanted so bad to die. I just wanted to end it. I don't even remember how old I was. I think I was 15 at the time. I think I was 15, maybe 16.

[A]

Really?

[B]

And I. Yeah, and I, I remember doing that and I remember taking all these pills and I remember drinking, you know, alcohol, just whatever I could. I couldn't get my hands on a gun. So I was trying everything else possible and I. These are just my reminder. I just got these like last year just of my kids of like when you get in that moment of feeling like your whole world is falling apart. And I always thought it's never going to get better. There's no way it's going to get better. No way. Because when you're in that valley, it's not like you can see the rainbow over there. Like, oh look, it's great, right? You just. You see that valley and that's all you can see. Or you're in that fog or you're in that whatever it is at the moment. That's all you can see is this is my life and this is really hard. And this is, you know, I've got a newborn baby. All these things. This isn't. When I did this, it was before I got pregnant with my son. But just that, that life gets better and, and me having both of my kids and me. And. And even though it's just me and my kids Again, life is great, you know. And so this. It's just. That's my reminder and I love it. Um. Yeah. And like I said, I recently got it. So there's. I'm doing a couple different things. I'm. I'm chasing things last year and then this year I've got some other plans ahead too of just again. It's that constant growth. It's that constant working on ourselves. I'm going to face something in my life that I have not faced head on. Someone in my life that, you know, that. That caused most of this. So there's. But it's a. It's a healing thing for me and I'm. I'm in that place. I'm in that healthy space of being able to. To face this soon. So. Yeah. I mean it's just. I love. It's just my reminder.

[A]

No, agreed. I saw that and like that's funny.

[B]

I've never noticed that I did that. But maybe I did.

[A]

No, only. But only twice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I do like not off like just twice. When you talked about being in dark, you. It was reassurance. You touched the same spot and always over here just to kind of that and I mean same. I know what this means. I know if I touch that. What I mean, like this been on since 2006.

[B]

I could tell it's been. It's too small quite a while.

[A]

Like it's now getting too small and it's burned on there and it can't come off.

[B]

And it reminds your reminder. Yeah.

[A]

That just I know what life is and I. But so interesting on that one. We're not going to go off in left field. Years ago there's a young lady. I would say she has a band music. Flyleaf is the name of the band. Okay. Lacy Carter was from this area. Okay. So long time ago she was here. I was a youth minister. So she was in that similar discussion. One of her songs, Red Sam is the name of the song. Like if you'd listen to that. Okay. So that song. It's a. It's a heavier. But we were talking and that song is about. She had decided that she didn't want to live anymore and she had cut her wrist and she was watching herself bleed out and she was sitting there and the comfort, as weird as that sounds of feeling that and knowing that the pain would quickly or shortly would. Would end and she was at least in control of that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that it made sense. And then she talked about. The song is about that she saw like she had a Vision that. That Christ came to her. Like, I mean, she knows.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

The song is about that. But just that moment, you're going, oh, my God, that. That we would reach that place. And there's many of us that. That have been there. And so we are definitely. The next chapter will be. We'll discuss. Because there's people that may want to hear. How do you navigate out of it? Because it's not, yippee, dippy, I'm done with this. It's. Yeah, life is tough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And then. And just this lack of a better term is what you focus on is what you're going to see if you want to focus and see the little tiny glimmers of Shawshank Redemption 101.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, like, that one. Like. So it's. It's. That is. You have two things. Is hope a good thing or is hope a bad thing? And that's always the struggle on that. Have you watched that movie? No. Go. How are we having a rational. How are we having a rational conversation?

[B]

You know what, though? I could have watched it and forgot about it. That's how great my memory is.

[A]

Okay. I would. I would encourage. I think you want me to watch it.

[B]

I think that my homework.

[A]

I think you would enjoy it. It's different because it's this metaphor about life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. But it's. Oh, I bet you I've seen it 300 times.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I watch it over because you have two discussions. I'm not going to be that guy who ruins the movie. But.

[B]

Yeah, but let me tell you about this part.

[A]

But I'm not like, it's just a struggle because we're kind of tiptoeing around it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A word they would use in there is hope. And then we would say, perspective is, like, looking for positive things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And one would go, oh, that's. That's going to kill you in the midst of terrible, terrible things. That's what actually kills you, is believing there's hope. And this other guy's like, no, this. This thing that no one can ever take from you. It's this sacred place inside of you. And so it's just. Just battle of which is what life is. Because so many. Like. And they're both. Yeah, watch this. And then we're going to have this discussion because I. This is intriguing to me because it is, like. So we're not telling anybody out there that Laura's life has been the easiest, greatest thing ever, and y'all need to have Laura's life. Absolutely not.

[B]

No.

[A]

No. Okay. And you don't need to have Jeff's life.

[B]

Laura has made lots of mistakes, and we make them.

[A]

As soon as we're done with this, we're going to make them still.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

And we're going to keep. But it's perspective. It's perseverance. It's looking for the good and keeping going forward and embracing. Not even. Just sometimes we can't even embrace the season we're in. It's simply embracing the moment I'm in at this moment.

[B]

And if it times, it's that very moment. Sometimes you have to take it moment by moment.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they go, okay, crap, it's raining. I didn't want it to be raining. It sucks being in the rain. But my son drives my son crazy, Okay? I will not own an umbrella. Okay? I will not. I will never. I will. My son, he always. Because it's me giving in to the weather.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

So like me. But now I get it. Backpacking, I'll wear. I'll wear waterproof jacket. Yeah, but he will have a rain. He'll have an umbrella in his car, and if it's raining, he's going to put it on. I'm like, oh. And he'll run to the store, and he's not wrong. He'll run across the parking lot and I'll walk the same pace I intended, and I'll walk in the store drenched, wet. I'm not going to let the weather, a female.

[B]

I don't want it to mess.

[A]

And I'm wrong on that. Like, you could go, jeff, your logic is unsound because you go backpacking. I get it. But it's just an exercise for me to remind myself, I do not want the weather to determine my actions. I will respond how I react to it.

[B]

Yes, that's it. Yes. Just like you say. So we each are all different people. We're all very unique. We're created so differently. We have to find. We can't say, well, what worked for Laura is going to work for me. Let me talk to Laura because, you know, this is. If it worked for her, it's going to work. No, because our minds are different. The way we function is differently. The way we think, our past, which creates who we are, then, you know, is. Is very different. So, you know, we're going to look at things differently. Different perspective. You have to find that. That thing that works for you or those reminders that work for you.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, just like you with the umbrella, you Know, or just like, not my little reminders, but, like, you know, we're. When you were talking about traveling and being close to God or feeling God in places. When I go to the mountains, I am like, God is like, sitting right next to me.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Not. Not that I don't feel him everywhere else, but that's just me. That's what works for me. You talk about going to the mountains and camping in a tent around my daughter. She thinks you're absolutely crazy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

She wants to be in a beach at the resort. You know, that's right. But again, whatever works for those people. Whatever little reminder you have, whether it's the weather, whether it's my tattoo, whether, you know, anything, or whatever thing, you know, those reminders. But also, like, what are we doing? How are. You know, for me, it's waking up and just thanking God immediately when I wake up. Like, thank you for my life. Thank you for waking me up today.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Thank you for this perspective. Thank you for. You know what? I live alone or I own my own home. Like, what am I going to focus on? What. What works for me. Right.

[A]

And you know what? We're not done. We're going to keep talking.

[B]

I'm sorry. Okay. We. I know we have to stop.

[A]

No.

[B]

Like this off. And then.

[A]

Well, we may have this because, like, four episodes. Because, like, this one, it is. It is that. It is. Little God does not. Well, I can't say I'm not God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

God speaks to me in the way that he knows Jeff will understand.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And what Jeff would. Like. Like how he can communicate to me when I'm listening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. The way he speaks and communicates to me is not the same. He probably doesn't speak to you through deer and deer hunting and looking at deer heads and going, oh, I remember this conversation with God. Probably not. Okay. I'm not saying. But, like, for me, how he communicates. But I know my obligation in that relationship is I know God desires to speak to me. He knows how to speak to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I need to put myself in as many positions as possible to listen to what he has to say.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So, like, Bobby and I, today, we'll go to the bleachers. Not because I care about physical activity, because I know it allows me to slow down and listen to how God would like to speak to Jeff. And God never really beats me up and tells me what a horrible creation I am. He always speaks to me kindly and he always lays grace upon me. Though how I teach myself is very. We're similar in that I do. Okay. I do start every day with a simple activity. Is when I wake up, I realize the simple sentence. I've waited my whole entire life for this day.

[B]

I love that I've waited because like, we.

[A]

We get so excited on Christmas Eve because we're going, oh, waited a whole year for Christmas. I've waited my whole entire life for this day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is something I should celebrate. Okay. And then the other certainty is I will never have another one of these exactly like this ever in my entire life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I might as well enjoy this one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if he woke me up, if I have a breath, then I would go, there must be something that God would allow me to do today. He doesn't need me to do anything for him. He allows me to do things for him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. There must be something he would either he would like for me to do for him or he would like to show me today. I want to be watching for those things at the end of the day. So I will tell you this. And we're going to get way off into the weeds here. So in my. In my garage. I framed in my garage. So we don't have a garage anymore. I made it the room that. I call that. Everybody. It's the din of death. Okay. So. So my garage is.

[B]

Please explain.

[A]

Okay. I agree. Okay. So. And we're going to get really weird. So then in the den of death, I have also built my own casket.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So my casket is sitting in the den of death. Okay. And I'll show you. I'll show you a picture of this. Okay. Do you know this, Bobby? Bobby doesn't know this. Okay. Wow.

[B]

That's an interesting thing.

[A]

Evidently what I just said is a strange sentence because I've got some really odd looks looking at me right now. It makes complete.

[B]

Please hurry.

[A]

So I. I did make my own casket. And it is sitting in the den of death. It's sitting. And I've got shelves in it that are sitting there. The casket is made for me. My dad actually helped make it with me. So we made it. I will long. I'm not going to get buried in it because I don't think bodies need to go on the ground. That's hope. But I will have this casket. Okay. In the casket right now. It's got shelves and it has all these different seasons of my life and different reminders of the seasons. It is full of life.

[B]

How cool.

[A]

So I've got all kind of different rocks from mountains. I've been on all Kind of pictures from me as a child, all kind of different seasons, just life. And so this box is not going to represent some dead body that's sitting in it. Somebody's going to, when they have to, When I get buried, somebody's going to have to go in there and see the true life that's inside this box and look at all the things that really made up the thing that's in this box. So it doesn't scare me. So for me to truly embrace life, you must truly embrace the concept of death that comes equally. And so they're one in the same. So, like, out of these, to go to these places. So you and I should be a kin on this. If you've been to that place, place that you said life is no more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Then the minute you come out of that, if you happen to get that gift, then you're living on the house's money from there on. You know what? I shouldn't even be here from here on because that whole other deal weirdness. Okay, let's see if I get the same weird. Okay. Laura looked at me way like I'm off on the casket deal.

[B]

Ever heard anybody say they had a casket?

[A]

I do, and I'll show you a picture of it when we're done. And but to all of that, to get to every night.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll say the same prayer every night. When I. When I go to sleep is. I am so, so tired. I want to go to rest. Yeah, I don't really want to live a long life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll live as long as God desires me to live. I am tired, but I want to end each day to go, you know what if this is the last one? Yeah, I'd like more. Like, who wouldn't? Yeah, I would like more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you know what? Tonight, if this is the last one of these I will ever have, then I am satisfied with what is in my casket. I am satisfied with the frame of death because there's nothing I can do about it. I go in peace.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And I believe that I have fought the good fight. I have stayed true to the faith. I've done these things, and I am satisfied, you know, and not that I believe I'm going to die in my sleep or something. All of that.

[B]

It's going to happen.

[A]

It's going to happen.

[B]

You're going to die at some point. And I'll say you're going into the slowly hopefully very, very well.

[A]

I don't know, like, you know, like the other weird thing. And I'll get on with it. Will be wherever chat. We're maybe in part four of this discussion. I don't know. Okay. Is when I was a youth minister, I knew with complete certainty everybody who knew me with complete certainty for many years. There was about three year span, I knew it with 100% certainty that I was supposed to die on April 6, 2006. Don't know why. Don't know what was April 6, 2006, matter of fact, I was going to die of a brain aneurysm.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

Knew it. Well, I knew that with clarity.

[B]

You following your own compass.

[A]

I. Well, I knew. And everybody who knew me like. And so I was. We would go and, you know, we're at 2004, two years. You're going to be dead next April. I have a will. I wrote everything out. Everything was taken care of because I knew April 6th was. I was going to die. My family knew it. Everybody knew it. Didn't tell my mom. How you going to tell your mom? Hey, by the way, I'm going to die tomorrow. Okay? So sorry, Mom, I didn't die, so. Oh, okay. But I knew I was going to pass away on that day. Knew it was certainty. I had. I was spoken to. I knew it with clarity. Okay. And so out of that. And I was fine. So then that kind of changed how I live from that. Obviously, I am now doing this and I will tell you this, okay? So everybody out there, I would love to tell you. Something magnificent happened on April 6, 2006, because I'm a lot of years past that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. I couldn't tell you what occurred on that day. That my life was forever changed. I can tell you and you can say, oh, you made it up in your head again. Okay. On that day, I do not know what this means. And this will be the first question I ask or I hope that gets explained to me. Okay. The same voice that told me that I was going to die on April 6, 2006, in the same room. Okay. Because I was. I got brought into a room and told this.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. It says, jeff, I am very disappointed in you that you think death is merely physical, is what I was told. Okay. Now in that something. Something in me or of me or something died.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know what it was. I'd love to tell you I was something and I wasn't after. I don't know nothing of that. And. And then also you could go, well, golly, Jeff, some greater thing. Told you they were disappointed. He didn't say Was disappointed in me. He just said, I'm disappointed that you think death is merely a physical thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so I don't know what happened since then. But then out of that, truly living on house money since then, you know what? And then, so God knows how to communicate to me. And then, so like that, hey, it's 2007. I should have been dead a year ago. It's 2008. I shouldn't even be seeing this. And we keep living that way. And so then it's truly this peace of, I don't know, shouldn't even be here.

[B]

Just like you say, that's God. God's way of communicating to you. So just like, again, we're all uniquely made.

[A]

That's right. You know, everybody doesn't need a den of death in their casket, in their garage. Probably not. Okay.

[B]

I think I will not pass. Yeah, but. But, yeah, I mean that. And that's if. If we quiet ourselves and if we give ourselves these opportunities to really quiet and listen, shift our perspective, all the different things, if we put in the work and we really choose to open up ourselves and open up our heart to. To truly listen, then, you know, God speaks to us in whatever way. Like I said with me, even, you know, becoming a Christian or just in all the different things in my life, I do not have one single moment where I can say, yeah, you know, I was laying on the beach and I just felt God's presence. I. I just know that now. I look back and I think, man, when that was happening to me, I know God was with me.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I. I just internally, somehow, because that's him communicating with me. I mean, again, we're all very different. I don't think anyone is delusional or crazy when they tell me, hey, you know, I was here and I just had this moment, and it was just right then, and I just felt it. And my life changed from that point forward. No, God knows me, and God knows that I. I need to be worked on for quite a while, you know, and so it was just this slow process of getting me there. And, you know, just like he reaches us in different places, he reaches us in, you know, he may reach me and the. The people that I see or the people that I'm talking to or whatever it is. And then, you know, or. Or he reaches me in the mountains and going on these trips and whatever it is. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So like, that. What I love in this, like, communicating with God is there's different verses, but, like, some God wasn't in the thunder, he wasn't in the fire, he wasn't in the wind. He was this whisper, the still, small voice of God, you know, and so sometimes, like me, when things are. Well, when I'm heading off in the wrong direction, you know what I do? I make a whole lot of noise so I can't hear the whisper.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and not. Not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yep. And so, like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so like these moments, we all have to find that, like, for me and you, like, we're similar in that, like, for me, I gotta be outside. That's not everybody's. And, but to hear and to be listen, I can't have other things occurring. Like, if I'm truly going to be quiet, I can't have my phone going. I can't be on the computer. I've got to be. That's me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just got to be quiet and I have to have time and I just need to be well, I think.

[B]

And that's where it kind of opens up to. Also, a good reminder is not comparing ourselves.

[A]

Well, that's right.

[B]

Because if we're. If I'm comparing myself to your story or I'm saying, hey, this worked for him, or whatever, you know, whether it's through social media or people that we're kind of meeting, the comparison is really easy to do for most people, especially with social media, just because everybody's putting their, you know, most wonderful things on social media and sharing all the great things. So then we start comparing. Right. So but it, but it's a. That's a reminder of don't compare your life and your story and where you are in your season. Also, like, you know, people that are my age, we're all in very different seasons of life. If I were to say, well, look at them, they're my age and they've been married for 25 years now and they've got their kids and all this and this. And if I'm comparing myself to that, then I'm definitely going to beat myself up or I'm not going to hear what God's saying to me or I'm not going to be open to what God's wanting to do with my life, with my story. Just, I think the comparison is a really huge thing kind of with what we're talking about. Like, you have to focus on what's. What does he want to do with your life? What can you do with your life?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, what's going to work for you? What little thing is going to remind you of, you know, whatever. What's going to be that reminder that's going to get you there? Just all these different things. As long as we just do not compare our lives to anyone else to any other season.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

I mean, which is so easy to do. I've been in plenty of seasons where I'm comparing myself to the outside. You know, look at all my friends. They're all doing all this and they're all going to college. And I didn't go to college until I was 30.

[A]

Did you really?

[B]

I did. I went to Temple College at 30 years old.

[A]

Did you really?

[B]

Huh. My son was already in high school.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Daughter was in elementary. And I decided to enroll myself in college.

[A]

What in the world? Yeah, that's really cool.

[B]

I did really good too.

[A]

I have no doubt graduated with a.

[B]

4.0 till one class really kicked my butt. But yeah, but I, I, I did, I mean, and I did everything backwards in life and I'm proud.

[A]

Why did you go to college?

[B]

Just to go. Because I never went fair. Because I, and I also thought, you know, career wise in that direction it would probably take me somewhere better. Um, but I just, I wanted to do it. I wanted to accomplish it. For me, it's facing those fears or facing those things. And so I enrolled myself at Temple College and you know, did terrible on the test to get me in. So I had to take like three or four math classes. Like take like the, like junior high, like the math class or something just to get me to take the first college level math class. It was so bad. So I, I, I did that. But when I took those, I sped through like three or four math classes that one of the teachers was like, I think you're the fastest person that's ever gone through that many classes. Cause I was so determined to like do it right. But yeah, I mean, it, you know, but everybody's different every other season. And for a while there I was a little embarrassed of like, oh yeah, you know, and, and I still every once in a while kind of get that little twinge of embarrassment when people are like, oh yeah, I went to A and M and I went here and I went here. Who do you root for? What college do you go to? I'm like, well, I didn't go to college, but then I went to Temple College, you know, but, but then I have to remind myself like, hey, you know what? That's fine. That's my season. Because you know what? I, it. Just because they went to college does not mean that they are better.

[A]

Than me, unless they went to A.

[B]

And M. I mean, I. My family.

[A]

So I do.

[B]

I'm. I understand. Yes. Most of my. My siblings went to A and M. But yeah, I mean, I. But it's that comparison that you have to really stop yourself and make sure that you're not comparing yourself to everybody else.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah, I would.

[A]

So commonality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A and M. Not that I'm going to. I happen to go to school there, but I have a very difficult time with math. Like, so math I did not.

[B]

Math is hard.

[A]

Math was so hard to me. So there was a stupid class at A and M that I had. I had math 141. I didn't remember this till I die. Yeah, math 141. I had to pass it before I could take 142. Only two math. Two semesters of math I had to take before I could graduate. So I did the stupid thing which was took every other class because I knew, oh, math is going to kick my butt. So now I get to my senior year on course game and I have to take math 141. Okay. So I studied this and I'll give you the brief version. Take the first test. And I made an 18 on the first test in math 141. Okay.

[B]

Believe what I did.

[A]

So I went on that semester and I don't even know the math term, but the professor would go, I don't know is that severance or rate? I don't even want this math there. But basically, you know, somebody in the class would get 106 on the test, like that's the highest score. And then somebody else would get this low number, whatever the low number on the score was when he would announce, or this person I knew that was me. So they would go, hey, somebody got a 25. And somebody got 106. Yeah, okay. And I'd be like, oh, 25, that's better. Or they go 42. And I'd be like, yes, knocked it out. But all that to say, look at me doing good. Five consecutive semesters of flunking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I failed at five in a row. Like, I couldn't pass this stinking class for nothing.

[B]

It's an expensive class.

[A]

Inexpensive. Yes. So I'd like to thank my parents and whoever else supported me in that chapter of my life. Yeah, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Finally, I don't know how or what all of that. Say. One professor, he was from Jamaica. I couldn't even understand what he said, but somehow how he communicated it to me, it just Clicked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I passed like, I got an 8 because it just made sense. And so then you go, well, what happened in 142? Well, then I was smart enough. One of my mother's friends was a professor at a junior college and she gave me a D the first time. So I did not earn anything. So I got up.

[B]

But all of grace there.

[A]

Yeah, we got a little bit. But it's, it's interesting. What's interesting for me is you said you are the least competitive person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I would go, if I was guessing, I would miss the mark completely. And I'd go, this is one super competitive person. Oh, 100%. Wouldn't you agree, Bobby? Yeah, I would say very competitive. Like the, the math. I went in because I wanted to do it, and I'm going to do it. I did this.

[B]

I'm competitive with myself.

[A]

Well, agreed. I, I, I true competitor than anyone else. Agreed. But true competitors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So why do I go climb a mountain? Am I ever going to beat a mountain?

[B]

No.

[A]

So who am I competing against? Always yourself. That's right. True competitors are not really going against the person on the other side of the field. It's always a struggle within themselves and striving for the greatness that they know they're capable of.

[B]

Yeah. So in competition with myself.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And myself only.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

But not, but not to the point to where I would beat myself up if I, if I cannot, you know, do good and whatever it is that I agree so irrelevant myself to, you know, to a sense of still, like, if I put myself up to something and I fail at it, I'm not gonna be like, oh, what is failing anymore? Yeah. Yeah. Because I know back in the day that I fail a lot and it's gonna be okay. Just, you know, it just. I always go back to the whole mountain thing, too. For me, when I go to the mountains, I'm reminded of every little thing that is happening in this world is nothing degree compared to this great life that we are given. So it's my reminder of. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I, my brain starts going in all these.

[A]

No, but I agree, like that.

[B]

But like, yeah, I mean, just maybe competitive with myself, but not even. I'm not even big competitive with myself either.

[A]

But like, you want to hear something funny? Like, so I would say winning or losing matters to me none. I care less in a board game or like, if somebody.

[B]

Now it's fun to win.

[A]

Fun to win. Who doesn't like to win, follow. But I want to play correctly.

[B]

And if I lose so, like, I don't.

[A]

I'm not going to do all these people validate things that they would do and justify that they'll do whatever because it got them of a win. Oh, you lost because the struggle was always with you. Like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, like, what's weird is, like, me, I'm the chaplain for the local soccer team at umhp. So I get to talk to all the boys before the game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And all. I've done it for 10 years. Always. You know what? At the end of the game, the numbers may not add up. They may add up on the other side. Maybe ahead, we may be behind. That's not how we determine victory. The only thing we can control is ourselves yet. And the struggle is not against the people on that side of the field. The struggles within ourselves. The numbers add up. Sometimes they do. There's been games that we have. Soccer team that we really lost, but the numbers added up on our side.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we happen to get more points than them that game. There's some that, you know, that we have lost.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That the numbers didn't add up. Right. But we really won. And so, like, you're going, well, that's the dumbest thing ever. Because it's all about winning. No, it's the competition. And it's this. This driving within ourselves of that. You climb mountains. Why? You didn't know you did nothing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To stand on a summit for a second.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What have you done? Nothing. The mountain is still there. It's this struggle to see who I truly am and what am I truly capable of and what abilities do I have. That's why you compete to climb it. It's the climb. It's not the. The only thing that the summit is good for is you have that momentary realization. I don't have to feel pain anymore for a second. I can just rest for a bit for a second.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then guess what you get to do?

[B]

Go back down.

[A]

Go back down.

[B]

I feel like that the people that are super competitive and I don't know, I'm just saying in my mind, I don't know if they could ever truly touch true happiness in their mind because they're constantly competing with something else. So to me, not being competitive, let's say you said in that thing where you said you. You or with the. The soccer game, you lost.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But you really won. Because if you really look at the bigger picture of that, you lost the game. But what if, you know, John over here kicked a goal and his friend was celebrating him, whatever it is. You saw teammates become better teammates together through this process.

[A]

Why don't you say John?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Because I was fixing to say because, like, out of that guy named John that plays soccer well, John Williams. Okay, so, like, he and I have this discussion. He's now a doctor here at Scott and White.

[B]

Oh, cool.

[A]

So he's a grown adult. Yeah, it's like he's grown up. There's a game that he and I both could point to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That the numbers didn't add up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Could not have played it better. Okay. He was magnificent in that. Blessed. We lost by the numbers.

[B]

The game.

[A]

The game. But we can go talk, and I will say, John, how many times you think about that game? All the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did we win or lose? Oh, we won.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Not the score, but the. What we learned. That game, he has carried with him forever.

[B]

That's where I use that word. Perspective.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And so whatever you're going to focus on.

[A]

So out of that game, you know.

[B]

The game of life.

[A]

That's right. And so you look at that and you're going, okay. And it's oversimplification of that. And then. But we look.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would we have loved to have won that game and been conference champions? Absolutely. Well, yes, But, But.

[B]

But other good things could come of that.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Just like with me. Would I, again, love to have my. My home on all the land? My white picket fence around it and my little fluffy cows and my marriage of.

[A]

Yeah, your little Buffy.

[B]

My marriage of 25, 30 years.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, my kids with the dad that's there. You know, all the things. Would I love that? Yes. But you know what? That's not my story, and that's not my life. I've still won. If you. If you're comparing it as a game, you know, in the comparison of life to other people, people would probably think, no, Laura didn't win. She's. She's. She way lost.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

She's. She's been married, she's been divorced. She's been married, she's been divorced. She's, you know, got two kids by two different dads, and neither one of their dads were around. You know, just all these things you can look at and say, I've lost. No, I've won. I. I am. I am happy. I am whole. I am loved. I am valued. I know who I am. I'm proud of the person that I am, I'm loved by God. I'm on a good journey. I'm. I take care of my. I have this great perspective in life. And again, I know I'm going to fail. I'm going to follow all these things, you know, I'm going to, I'm always going to fail. I'm always going to screw up and make mistakes. But in the, in the bigger picture, I see God has opened my eyes probably through my story, to be able to see the bigger picture, which is what I feel when I'm in the mountains.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

When I'm in the mountains and I'm looking at the mountains, it's like God is giving me this vision of life. And it's like, look at all these mountains and all these valleys and how huge it is and how beautiful it is. If I'm going to focus on this valley and this little valley, that's not what's in front of me, why not focus on the bigger picture of this life and not just focus on, well, I want to win. I want to be the first one to get to that mountain.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Or I'm going to be the one that lives the picture perfect life. Because I promise you also, if you're comparing, no one is living a no, they're not life.

[A]

There's no.

[B]

Whether it looks like they are, they're not. They're struggling in whatever way and they're probably not going to share it. People like me, I didn't get the choice to really not share it because my life is in front of everybody. So everybody got to see Laura fail over and over. That was a part of my life then, right when, when somebody's struggling with other things, you're our problems and our hurts and our, you know, our failures are right in front of everybody. Other people may have this picture perfect life from the outside, but then it's kind of hidden and you're not seeing their hurts or their struggles or, you know, they may be struggling with whatever it is, just battling internally or depression, whatever it is that you may not see one again. Someone like me, you see my scars, you. My life was kind of out there in the open for everybody to see, you know, some of the things. But like, I don't know, I mean, just the, the comparison, the, the way that you look at it, just all of those things matter and just if you can really allow yourself to step back and just look at the bigger picture of life, to me, that's where you win.

[A]

Agreed?

[B]

Yeah. Like, I don't know.

[A]

Let me ask you this question. That's fine. Okay.

[B]

I think we're like two hours.

[A]

Well, I was thinking why I was.

[B]

Fixing to ask you the same podcast. Yeah. I was like, you got one more hour left.

[A]

I was going, okay, Laura, if you were going to guess how long we've been talking, I would say, well, I. 10 to 15 minutes.

[B]

I think we're two.

[A]

We're two hours.

[B]

I told you I could talk.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But talk a lot. I probably should work at some point.

[A]

Oh, wait, so we'll do that. Because my phone's been going, what we're going to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it is interesting. It's very intriguing to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The conversation. And probably if you're listening to it, you've just listened to part two of our discussion.

[B]

Yeah. They could have fallen asleep.

[A]

Could have fallen asleep. You're driving. I apologize. You fell asleep. But it is interesting. And we're going to. We're. The next time we are going to have another one on this is to look at because you've said, like, this is exactly everything that we do here. I mean, it's. It's. It's this. It's life, it's community, it's together, it's hurts, it's perspective, it's these. It's. It's this. It's this journey. And it's what we do. Okay. It's what it. What this place is about and what life is about and this. And then what you said is, God, we could have a whole other episode. Everybody that we serve here, feed my sheep that is unhoused. Everything they're going through is right there in front of everybody to see. There is no hiding, nothing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, by the way, you just. It's that. So then what you said, hey, I didn't have the luxury of. I could hide everything. And then all of this stuff. Okay. We are going to take this discussion up and to talk about the mountains and to look at the mountains and. But we go into the next time, everybody's going to hold us to this. As Laura will have seen Shawshank Redemption.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then she will. Will be tonight, Elville, to discuss. Yeah, that. And then the other one. Okay, I'm gonna give you two assignments.

[B]

I gotta. Hold on. Let me write this down.

[A]

Okay. The other one out there, I'm not advertising any. So Shawshank Redemption.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. Because that's life, perspective. And the other one I want you to watch is the Alpinist.

[B]

Okay. My brother has that book and said it was the Greatest.

[A]

Oh, it's magnetic. Yeah.

[B]

And he's mentioned it to me and I never read it. There's the movie I can watch the.

[A]

Alpine and it's short. Okay. And then. So then out of. I'll even dial you in even more.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm not gonna tell you what to watch but like in the Alpinist. Okay. I want you to really watch the whole and really look at the perspective of the girlfriend and what she kind of talks about in the. It's a. It's just a documentary. It's not even a movie. It's just a documentary on the. One of the greatest free type climbers that the world has ever seen.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He's magnificent. Good. Interesting. Both of those. And then we're going to take off from there.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Bobby, have you seen the alpinist you mentioned to. Then you have to watch it as well. I know you've seen shot, but Alpinist is for anybody out there and what we've talked about here and it'll make some sense. But we're going to continue this. I've enjoyed our discussion if no other reason, selfishly because we have like minds of how we look at this thing. And I do believe life is a beautiful, beautiful picture that God is painting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's many strokes in the painting that will be, Jeff. That I would have painted differently. But you know what? I am not completely painter. I am not completely the painter.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And there is the luxury of getting old. We can look back at some of the strokes and they look. They look beautiful and they make a little bit of sense. And there's going to be some that are coming that I'm like son of a gun, you screwed this whole painting up. Yeah. We are so close to this masterpiece. And then when it's all said and done, hopefully what we have created is something that God would look and show the world that that was beautiful. And this thing that we are painting, every one of us out there, it's this thing, it's called a life. And every one of them is different and every one of them, like we have said, they are beautiful. And there's many forms of art. Life is a beautiful, beautiful painting.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And so we're going to look at that. Enjoyed our discussion. Bobby, you got a lot of work ahead of you. This is whether this is one or two or three or whatever it is. And maybe you wrote it out, but hopefully out of it. I would listen to this conversation and I would. I would hear this and wherever I was at, not my voice but to hear, you know, it's a difficult thing, but we do have a choice how we face these things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we do control that. And so, Laura, good to have you here. Absolutely. Beautiful. To me that we did not talk about one thing that we were going to set out to talk about and had no idea that we were going to end up here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And talk about the things we did. Okay. And then hopefully out there, everybody who's listening this, we come to this. Everything we do here, everything we're about, even while we do this goofy little podcast thing, it's simply because of this truth that people matter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And not because Laura and I and Bobby or whoever else say that people matter. We say that because God himself says it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He says that you individually matter and that you were divinely created by him. You matter. Okay. And we matter in so many different ways. We are not irrelevant. We matter. Okay. And that also has many different scales to it. And that we also matter and being a part in other people's lives. And we are not irrelevant into the whole story that is going on. We do have a role and a responsibility in this world to see those that are lost, that are hurting, that are alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And be there. So interesting discussion. And so we will look at the assignments. We will take this up. There will be whatever it is, phase three or phase two or phase four of this discussion. We will continue. And everybody out there hope you have a great day. And no matter where you are, that you trust that the compass is right. It is pointing you in a true direction. And just like they would say in Africa when you're on a climb. Pole, pole, which means slow, slow. Just keep climbing. Pole, pole, Slow, slow. But you keep going forward. I like keep climbing. It's good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, you got to see that mountain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kilimanjaro is fantastic. Never been.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Oh, fantastic. We're going to talk about that and that climb. So my assignment. Okay. You're going to watch those, and you're going to tell me is the next time we meet, and you're going to say, jeff, tell me why in the world you climb Mount Kilimanjaro.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. And love to hear it.

[A]

We're going to talk about that, and then we're going to go from there, because that was the year after I was supposed to die.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

And then why do you have a bracelet on that you haven't taken off since 2006?

[B]

Yeah. I would love to hear that. Yep.

[A]

So we're going to go that direction because I called you out and said, why do you touch your wrist?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then you're going to have questions for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So that is it. New record for length of time. Congratulations, Laura. We broke the record. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Collage Podcast, a production of Red Cord Music Media. For more information on this and other podcasts, please visit redcordmedia.org.