From City to Nonprofit: A Journey of Growth

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Collage Podcast

Episode: From City to Nonprofit: A Journey of Growth

Host: Feed My Sheep | Guest: Nancy, Assistant Director

Air Date: June 25, 2026
Location: Temple, Texas

---

Overview

This episode centers around the personal journey and learning curve of Nancy, the new Assistant Director at Feed My Sheep, as she transitions from her previous role in city government to hands-on nonprofit work. The conversation delves into the complexities of serving the homeless population, the nuanced definition of success in nonprofit and personal endeavors, and the importance of allowing people to experience challenges for genuine growth. The host and Nancy use stories, notably a recent Colorado hiking trip, as metaphors to explore these themes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nancy’s Background and Transition (00:00–06:15)

• Background: Nancy recently started full-time at Feed My Sheep after years in city government, managing programs that intersected with the nonprofit’s work.
• Learning Curve: Despite her deep familiarity with the homeless community, Nancy was surprised by “how humbling and challenging” the direct nonprofit experience has been.
  • Quote: “I thought I was pretty well prepared to make the transition city to Feed My Sheep. Yes… Not prepared at all.” (05:27, Nancy)
  • Recognition that direct service is fundamentally different from the municipal role, with deeper emotional and operational complexities.

---

2. Redefining “Success” in Serving the Homeless (06:12–20:49)

• Societal vs. Individual Outcomes:
  • Standard societal view: Success is moving people off the streets and into housing.
  • Nancy & Host: That metric is insufficient; absence from sight does not equal true progress.
  • Quote: “It is only solving one tiny piece of the bigger puzzle.” (11:16, Nancy)
• Personal Choice and Empowerment:
  • Emphasize the necessity of agency: People must make their own decisions for change to be sustainable.
  • Forced interventions often fail—real progress comes when individuals participate and choose their next steps.
  • Reflect on enabling vs. empowering: If all decisions are made for someone, the approach is doomed to “not work” and can damage relationships with property owners and partners.
  • Quote: “The most successful scenarios that I have seen have been when the individual makes the decision… But us making those kinds of decisions or removing freedom from them is a recipe for disaster.” (08:38, Nancy)

---

3. Case Study: The Housing “Success” That Wasn’t (13:44–23:04)

• Scenario Details:
  • The team helps an older woman move from homelessness to stable housing, only for her to quickly revert to previous harmful relationships and risky choices, jeopardizing support arrangements.
• Reflection:
  • The hosts analyze how, despite the “success” of housing, the underlying challenges (addiction, autonomy, relationships) remained unaddressed.
  • Quote: “We pulled a lot of strings for her on the assumption that the information she was giving was accurate. And it was not… That relationship with that property owner is—if it gets damaged—I won’t be able to leverage that relationship for anybody after her. That is a bad thing.” (21:05, Nancy)
• Lesson: Sustainable change must start with the person’s own engagement, not merely external interventions.

---

4. Using the Mountain Climb as a Growth Metaphor (23:06–54:09)

• Nancy’s Solo Colorado Trip:
  • Nancy shares stories about camping and attempting her first 14,000 ft. mountain climb.
  • Host guides her through reflections: the importance of failing, learning by doing, and encountering her own limitations and strengths.
  • Quote: “What did you learn out in that case?... If somebody had just said, here’s your pack, carry it, or don’t take this, don’t take this… You wouldn’t have believed them.” (34:49, Host)
• Growth by Experience:
  • The trip is used as a metaphor for both staff development and serving Feed My Sheep clients: Genuine growth requires letting people carry their own loads, risk, fail, recalibrate, and surprisingly, meet themselves—and God—along the journey.
  • Quote: “If anybody had done the whole thing for you… you’re not falling in love and learning about your strengths and what you can do…” (47:42, Host)
• Learning from Mistakes:
  • Stories include tent mishaps, nearly losing her dog in rapids, and overestimating hiking ability—all necessary for learning.
  • Quote: “You got baseline that you know what you can do… What a gift.” (60:25, Host)

---

5. The Real Definition of Success and the Importance of Struggle (54:09–end)

• “Success” vs. “Failure”:
  • Success isn’t defined exclusively by summiting the mountain but by the willingness to climb, to try, and to risk learning.
  • Quote: “Success is I climbed… There is no winning or losing in climbing a mountain. Only people that would look upon this and say, ah, failure—not a mountain climber.” (62:40, Host)
• Rule of Mountain Climbing:
  • Most important lesson: “Getting to the top is optional. Getting down safely is mandatory.” (58:11, Host)
• Parallels to the Homeless Work:
  • “Helping” that robs people of their autonomy can be more about the helper feeling good than the person getting helped.
  • The greatest service is supporting people in their own struggle, enabling them to discover self-sufficiency.
  • Quote: “We do a disservice here … by doing everything for all the people we come in contact with because we believe they are incapable of doing things on their own.” (45:44, Host)
  • Quote: “In the struggle is where beautiful things are created.” (65:50, Host)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I thought I was pretty well prepared to make the transition… Not prepared at all.” – Nancy (05:27)
• “The most successful scenarios…have been when the individual makes the decision.” – Nancy (08:38)
• “It is only solving one tiny piece of the bigger puzzle.” – Nancy (11:16)
• “We pulled a lot of strings for her on the assumption that the information she was giving was accurate. And it was not.” – Nancy (21:05)
• “Genuine growth requires letting people carry their own loads, risk, fail, recalibrate. And surprisingly, meet themselves—and God—along the journey.” – Host summary (throughout)
• “Getting to the top is optional. Getting down safely is mandatory.” – Host (58:11)
• “In the struggle is where beautiful things are created.” – Host (65:50)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–06:15 — Introduction, Nancy’s background, transition from city to nonprofit
• 06:12–12:23 — Defining success in homelessness work
• 13:44–23:04 — Case study: When “success” in housing isn’t what it appears
• 23:06–54:09 — Colorado climbing trip as an analogy for growth, self-discovery, and the risks of over-helping
• 54:09–65:50 — Redefining success/failure, critical lessons, reflections on support, autonomy, and faith

---

Key Takeaways

• True empowerment comes from allowing—indeed, requiring—people to participate in their own growth and recovery.
• Success is a journey, not a destination—it cannot be externally imposed or defined solely by outcomes visible to others.
• Helpers must beware of “over-helping,” as it can undermine the very independence and confidence the process should foster.
• Both in nonprofit work and in life, embracing the struggle is essential for genuine growth—for clients and for ourselves.

---

For more community stories, subscribe to The Collage Podcast by Feed My Sheep, Temple, TX.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hey, we want to welcome everybody to a another edition of the collage podcast. Hope you're having a great day here with Nancy again today. And we're gonna have a little discussion day. Well, obviously for doing a podcast, we're gonna have a little discussion, but we're gonna look at some stuff. We're here at Feed My Sheep in Temple, Texas. We are on Avenue G. Here in Temple is where we're physically located. Temple is a little town in the middle of central Texas. What Feed My Sheep is, is we provide, we would say we feed those that are hungry physically, spiritually, and emotionally. So providing the basic needs to an underserved in society population. Kind of to give you a daily a glimpse of what is occurring here. Okay. And then to give you a glimpse. So I am, I guess, the executive director. Nancy here in the discussion is the assistant director and she works with the ladies. So in it, that's kind of. We divide things up a little bit that way. So that's kind of who we are. That's kind of what we are discussing. The world that we work in, percentage wise, has probably a higher percentage of users. And that sort of thing that you would expect in the homeless population, that's our norm is dealing with a lot of people that are struggling with addiction issues, with mental health issues, housing instability, issues of sort of that. Okay, so that kind of tells you who we are working with. Okay. So today's discussion, we were just talking about it just a second ago with the microphones not on, we're just kind of giving you a glimpse. So Nancy, kind of tell everybody how long you have been here in the. Roughly the world here at Feed My Sheep and such like that full time

[B]

since the last week of April, first week of May, somewhere in that. That range. So.

[A]

And before then, you were in this world?

[B]

Yeah, I was. I worked full time for the city of Temple, and we had a lot of projects and programs that sort of overlapped with Feed My Sheep Housing and Community Development with the city is the social service arm of the city. So we provided or we oversaw those programs for the city. And Feed My Sheep was a recipient of that grant funding, also working with Feed My Sheep as the lead agency on the little flock community, which also fell under my department with the city. So I would consider it as close to Feed My Sheep and the clientele here as I could have been with a city agency.

[A]

Okay, fair. And we are. So when she says end of April. Okay, so we're recording this first of June. Ish. Okay. So roughly doesn't matter. So basically, we've had one month with a vacation in it.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Okay. So one month of kind of navigating this world as compared to the world that was in this world, but not this world.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we've been having some interesting discussions because in this, Nancy is not like Joe, stranger to what was going on here. And the homeless situation in temple, she didn't come from way out in left field, and she was, whatever, the hostess at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel. And so she comes from that to here. That would be a pretty good jump. And you'd go, golly, well, yeah, no, she was in this world working with some of the same people in a different gist and comes here. Okay, so you'd go, well, that should be zero, if any, learning curve. There could be a big learning curve of having to deal with Jeff, Okay. Because I got to deal with him. That'd be a big learning curve, but should be okay. Of all the people that would come here, you've been doing this. This was your world. You were the city counterpart to me on the nonprofit side. We worked hand in hand. We did studies on this population. We worked for years on how to do this. You would think if there's any one person, possibly. I'm not putting you as the one person in the world, but if there is a person out there that it should have been. Absolutely not even a flinch. Should be you, correct?

[B]

Yeah, I.

[A]

And you would have speculated that such.

[B]

I would. I would think. I thought I was pretty well prepared to make the transition city to feed my sheep. Yes.

[A]

Now, you would say I was not.

[B]

Not prepared at all. Thought I sort of knew, but there's so many factors that I don't even think anybody could have told me. I think I just had to walk in it to really fully understand or know what I didn't know. But it's been a learning experience, very humbling experience from. From day one.

[A]

Okay. And we're gonna see. So I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna describe a scenario here that I just. Somebody just talked to me, okay. Not right or wrong, anything. Okay? This is just normal. Okay, so we're gonna start a. Another program. Okay, so what? And how to get training for people. And then they would get training, and then they would do this. Okay? So we were. And this. The project would be construction. We're going to have construction projects. We're going to teach people how to do construction projects. They would learn. They would get a job. Okay? So then he. He says, okay, so let Me see if I got this straight. Okay, we are going to. Okay, I want to do this. We're going to train them up. I need this many. We're going to train them up and then we're going to get them. And then we're going to get them into a house, and then we would have them into permanent housing in this long. And then we're going to get them a job, and that would be success. Okay? So I say, well, yeah, but that's not solely what it is, and that's not solely how it's going to work.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Okay. It's not that simple. And so it is just not simply that matter. So then he says, okay, but then. But I don't want to come alongside and be enabling people. Like, if we pay them to do this, but we're not making sure that they're making right decisions after this, that we're just enabling them to stay exactly where they are. Okay. Then I say, well, last time I checked, if any of these guys that we train up, they go get a construction job. Does the construction job monitor where they go at 501 when they're off? Do you have it at your job? Does somebody say to you, nope, you're not spending your money as you should have. You shouldn't be buying that much on Amazon. I get it. Drug use, we can't facilitate that. So let me ask you. So then I know at a different juncture, another Nancy Glover at the city, how she would have responded to that. I want to see Nancy. Nancy Glover, who's been here three weeks. What does she say about that scenario? What would you say?

[B]

It's complicated. I would say if we make all the decisions for them, it will not work. Without a doubt, they have to participate in whatever it is that we're going to do. And I would even say that the most successful scenarios that I have seen have been when the individual makes the decision of, I want to participate in this program, I want to get into housing. What do I need to do? And then they do it and we provide. Yes, that is the best. But us making those kinds of decisions or removing freedom from them is a recipe for disaster. Like, it will not work.

[A]

Agreed. So then we had that discussion. So I said, okay, where do you want to move them into?

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Okay, what does it look like to you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And do you have the right to put them in the place that you want, or do they have the right to choose where they would like to stay? And maybe it's not a place that you Would like to stay. Okay, what does success look like? What if. You know. So mine is. Yeah, do I want anybody to stay in this place stuck in neutral as it looks to me? Well, no, I don't want to enable somebody to do that. I want to empower them. So then you navigate that. So then we would look societally, success in any of the programs that we do here is somebody is no longer on the street and I don't have to see them on the street.

[B]

Societally.

[A]

Societally, yes. Okay, so then we would. So then we go. Success is, you were under the bridge. I got you an apartment over here that taxpayers are paying for or whatever. We don't have such a program here in Temple, but taxpayers are paying for it. It's over here with a bunch of other people that were homeless in this place that nobody sees. But you're not under the bridge anymore, which nobody should stay in a bridge, right? Okay, I'm not saying that. But you're no longer there where anybody could see. And that would be a societal success. Okay. In your eyes, is that a success?

[B]

No.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

It is only solving one tiny piece of the bigger puzzle.

[A]

Okay, agree. So this un understandable outside of here, because then at one juncture, you might have had a different answer to that.

[B]

I would have totally. Yes, I would. I would say let's build. If we've got 300 people experiencing homelessness, let's build 300 tiny homes and let's put everybody in a tiny home and we're done. And that's it. And we're finished.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

But I know now that that is not. That is not going to be a long term feasible solution for our people because it goes deeper than just having a roof over their head.

[A]

Must have. So, like this. Get everybody who's hearing this. Okay, I would agree 1000%. If we have 300 people that are homeless, there must be 300 opportunities at least for them to have access to housing.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

Okay. Access to housing at various forms. There must be that. Okay. So you can't eliminate the homeless issue without homes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay, so that, that's. We're not saying we don't want any homes. Okay. But it is not simply enough to just have 300 homes and go, okay, you're homeless. There you are. You're in the blue one, you're homeless. You're in the yellow one. Okay, you're homeless. You're in that red house over there. And we're done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe you think what, a week, maybe two weeks, maybe two, maybe two it takes about a week. Everybody going to stay in their place and do. But once they get their feet underneath them and figure things out, you get about two weeks and then the chaos ensues in a whole other level. Gave him a roof.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But did we solve the homeless issue?

[B]

I think it took the lady, the last one that we put into a place, some total of maybe five days till the bad element was invited over to her place and was.

[A]

Yeah, tell them. Okay, so then this is where we're going to get to. Okay, so this is baffling to me, but not baffling. It is, but it isn't. Okay. Because I've been here a little bit. Yeah. Not young. Old lady.

[B]

Old.

[A]

Yeah, old lady. Okay. And I don't mean that rude. Just her age is old.

[B]

Older woman.

[A]

Okay. Older woman. She left a facility that was taking care of her that she did not think was taking care of her well enough. Which at the end of the day, bottom line, I'm not going to tell her story. Don't even say her name. But at the end of the day, she didn't think she was getting all the services that she deserved in the quick enough manner. Come to find out, looking at the story, one of the services that she probably thought she deserved and needed to be was meth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So she left the facility and because she's not being able to feed her addiction there as she would like or

[B]

get Coca Cola and other sugary.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so she wasn't able to live. So she leaves that place, ends up to a known meth house. Okay. So that's where she goes as every right to, I guess. I don't know. And she's older, can't even take care of herself. She's on a wheelchair. No Walker. Wheelchair. She was in a wheelchair at that time. Yep. She can't even get around on her own, but goes to the meth house. Meth house. I'm guessing she ran out of money or something of that sort. They don't even let her inside the house, Correct? Correct. So she doesn't even get to go in the place. She's outside the place and she's staying underneath the tree because it's shady. She's there long enough that birds are defecating on her in a wheelchair in front of a meth house. Extended period of time. That's where she's staying. So out of that, police pick her up, they contact me. Go. Now we got this lady here and she's in a bind. She has nothing. So I went and met her. Decent sob story. We don't know all this other backstory, but at the end of the day, it's whatever she was she. 83, 68. 68, that's pretty close. Same number. Okay, 68. She was at 68 years old, same day in a wheelchair. And the police, they come to this hotel. I go to the hotel on a Sunday and they're like, hey, what do you. We can't do anything with her. She has nowhere to go. How are you going to put a 68 year old lady out on the street? I'm like, well, get a room, I guess. Which I am adamant. I think getting a hotel room still not a good idea.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

Still not a good idea. But. But you get into this whole other but area, which is what else you going to do? I'm the last voice. And if I say now she ain't got a room, then she's out on the street. Do I think I helped her any by putting her in that hotel? Absolutely not. So we put her in there and she meets Nancy and she has one heck of a good sob story. Correct?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Decent good sob story that was believable to a certain deal. Nancy, again, being human being, swallowed it

[B]

hook, line and sinker.

[A]

Yep. Swallowed it down to the gullet and jumped through every hoop and call this property owner and that. And put the fear of God in this one and sob story to that one. And we get her into a place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which doesn't happen. We get her into a place on whatever, Tuesday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because we put her. It was quick. So we got her hotel Monday, Tuesday, we needed Wednesday, Thursday.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Got a place to stay for a month, but very permanent. Not just a month.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

She could be there. Okay. So we're like, okay. Ran in some issues that she can't take care of herself. Okay. Which. Okay, we called aps whole other discussion, but whatever. So she's at the place. She is in, quote, unquote, success. Right.

[B]

By all intents and purposes, success.

[A]

Got somebody looking after her, got somebody helping, bringing food to her, got aps that's coming to check on her. We have OT stuff. Will supposedly start coming too.

[B]

Supposedly. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Coming to her deal and to help her out you go, okay. Whew. Success. Done. Move on to the next one five days from that. Tell me about that.

[B]

Well, the property manager gave me a call and said, hey, can you come check CL on this lady? She has someone in her room with her. Is she allowed to have someone in her room with her?

[A]

And She's a grown adult that's a stranger to us. Correct?

[B]

Yes. And she was concerned about her safety because of this individual. So I've learned one thing pretty quickly, not to go into any sort of situations like that that may be dangerous by myself. So grabbed Jeff and went over to check on the lady, and sure enough, the guy that had put her out of the house, the meth house that she was in that treated her so badly was the guy that was in the apartment with her. He had ridden his bike over there. And she was so excited that he was there and he was helping her clean the apartment, supposedly. So, yeah. Kind of shocking that she would allow this guy back into her life after what had happened. And that was within five days.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

Of the initial getting her in there. Initial success.

[A]

So then here we would look. And so then we would say to that one, which. And we would say, any store, every story here is constantly moving. So I hate the phrase success or failure because it is not an end.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There is not a. Well, there are some stories that are an end because they passed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Apollo's story ended.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He got shot. His story ended.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No matter where somebody else is on the map here, it is not at the end. It is always constantly moving.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They are successful today. AA101. You're just. Today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You navigate today. Okay, so out of this. That's why I hate the word success or failure. What in the world. So then, like, using that. So tell me, how would you use. What word would you use for her? Success or failure? You only get to pick one of the two.

[B]

Failure.

[A]

Okay. Why. But she got a house.

[B]

We, I think, pulled a lot of strings for her on the assumption that the information that she was giving was accurate. And.

[A]

And was it?

[B]

It was not.

[A]

Not even close.

[B]

Not accurate information at all. She lied about several things. And that relationship with that property owner is. If it gets damaged, I won't be able to leverage that relationship for anybody after her. That is a bad thing. Like that is that to me, it goes beyond her. While I feel like, in retrospect, if I'd have just said, you know what, I'm really sorry, but they're just. There's no option for you. Let's get with your family. Let's talk to your sister. Let's, you know, figure out something for you, she would have made it. And I think you've told me multiple times about. She's survived 68 years before we even came into her universe. So chances are she would have been able to Figure something out. And I've got to. I think in my mind, I have to get that mindset of, we need to encourage her to make her own decisions and navigate her own issues. If we've got some support that we can provide, then, you know, I. I think we do that. Like, I. E. $20 to get an ID replacement or, you know, a birth certificate or, you know, something like that. Like, even helping in those ways shows that we're here for you. We want to walk with you through this. But ultimately, she needs to be the one to call to make the appointment. She needs to be the one to call and figure something out, hunt down the apartment options or whatever that might be for her.

[A]

Good. So let me ask you this.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Where did you just go last week?

[B]

Colorado.

[A]

Ah, okay. Not. Then you go, wow, that's a rapid transition from, we're gonna talk about this. Okay. So in it, you did several things. I mean, you've told me you went to the Great Sand Dunes. Really neat.

[B]

Yeah, it was.

[A]

Okay. You put up a tent by yourself.

[B]

I did.

[A]

And stayed in the tent with your dog.

[B]

With my puppy.

[A]

With your puppy. That's like, go ahead and give a shout out to it. Like the best puppy.

[B]

So awesome.

[A]

Like the best puppy of all puppies. Okay. So she gives a shout out to Lily right there. So. But she went. Put up her own tent by herself. Okay. Stayed out there with your own puppy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Woke up on your own, Went out into the sand dunes, and I did. Okay. On your own. How'd you know where to go?

[B]

They were on the horizon, so it was kind of hard to miss.

[A]

But you just went. You just. But on your own.

[B]

Yeah. Figured it out.

[A]

Okay. So then out of that. And we're going to this. We're going to tie it back in. So then out of that. Then we go in and we had a learning experience with the wonder pup in Salida. What did you almost do to the wonder pup in Salida?

[B]

She almost drowned in the rapids because I was pitching the stick too close to the rapids, and she got swept away and someone had to jump in.

[A]

We're gonna come back to that one, too.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So we're working with the puppy, and she's doing exactly what you want her to do. And you don't quite realize the dangers that were there because we don't have rapids in Texas. So got the dog in a beautiful place in more of a dangerous situation than they were. And there's no two ways. And we're not picking on you, but, like, out of that. She got in that situation solely because of the decisions you made.

[B]

And I would say too, at the dunes.

[A]

Whoa, whoa. What happened at the dunes?

[B]

So there were lots of like little prickly pear kind of cactusy plants everywhere. And I went off the trail and she followed me. I was looking for the stream for everybody out there.

[A]

This is the first time this is being brought forth.

[B]

Yeah, I was going to tell you about that, but there is supposed to be this river by my tent site like in the pictures. I was sold this bill of goods that there was this river supposed to be there. So she and I went off and tried to find the river and couldn't find the river. But we did find a whole lot of prickly pear, like cactusy things and she had them all in her paws still. No, I think I got them out. I've checked several times to make sure I got them all out.

[A]

But yeah, so we'll come back to that. So then that does tie into this. Okay. And then you went. And you were going to go climb Mount Shavano.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is 14,000. It's barely over 14,000. It's a little one in the 14,000 foot club.

[B]

In the 14.

[A]

Yeah. So they. And for all of y' all who are on the 14,000 Facebook page with Nancy. Okay, so shout out to y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

Okay, so Nancy's going to go. We're going to go climb a 14,000 foot mountain.

[B]

First mountain climb ever.

[A]

Oh, first mountain climb ever.

[B]

I mean I've done, I did, I did a little. It was in Machu Picchu. There's a Huayna Picchu peak right next to Machu Picchu and it's, it's essentially like a 1500 foot set of stairs. You just take to the top and then you look down over Machu Picchu. It's very cool. It took me an hour and a half round trip to get to the top and back. No, that was not.

[A]

That's a whole other deal.

[B]

That wasn't in the comments.

[A]

But so you're, you're next to the baby mountain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so you're on the baby mountain next to the big mountain. But Nancy is going to go. And she's going to go to Colorado. Drove to Colorado with this is one of the intentions of I got to see what it looks like at the top of a 14,000 foot mountain. Can't be that hard because there's 52 of them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Well, you all know that in the 14 or club. So she had no clue. She's sitting there going, yeah, yeah. 52. These doesn't know that there's 52 or 53 of them in the United States, but she will, you know, as president of the 14,000 Foot Facebook Club. Group discussion. Okay? So she goes, she gonna do this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pretty simple. Pretty simple. Okay. And so in it on any climb. Okay. So I was asking this, okay. So this is how it ties in. Okay, Think about this question.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. Think about this question. Don't just answer. I'm going to ask you.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I'm asking, Nancy, was your climb successful or was it a failure?

[B]

It was 100% successful.

[A]

Okay. I'd agree. So Nancy would define the climb as 100% successful. Why would you use that term?

[B]

I accomplished so much as for my first climb and I learned so much.

[A]

Did you have somebody who carried your stuff for you?

[B]

No, I wish I had.

[A]

Okay, agreed. Okay. Did you pack your own stuff? Did somebody do that for you? Did you discern what you needed to bring or not bring?

[B]

I did.

[A]

Okay. Did you really know the map as well as you could have or should have? No, not at all.

[B]

No.

[A]

Did you know how to do this completely?

[B]

I did not.

[A]

So I'll ask you. I've been to that mountain, okay. Seen it, done it. Is it really helpful if I did everything for you and took you and told you everything about it that's beneficial To a degree, yeah. Can you really learn if I do every bit of it for you? I carry the pack, okay. I know what I put in it. I know the things that are necessary. I know the things that are unnecessary. I carry it for you. We get to the top. Whatever. I take you up there, I get you to the top, okay? You still get to the top. Okay. We do this. And out of that, in the whole process, you, you have not done really anything that is necessary to learn how to climb the next one.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

What have you learned? I learned how to follow Jeff up the mountain, which is. Maybe there is giftedness in that. I'm not saying I'm gifted in that, but there is a person's role that go, hey, I'm going to be encouraging you to help you keep climbing. Okay. But have I done a disservice to Nancy by doing everything for you? Don't even get to see the map.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At best, I point to the top of the mountain. That's why we're going to go, woo hoo. I get you to Colorado. I know the map, I know the trail. I carry the water, I carry the food. I know what we need to do. I know all the obstacles. I take you, we get to the top, we snap the photo, we come down, and you're like, happy, happy, happy, joy, joy. Yeah. And then you can't figure out why you can't make it up the next one by yourself.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because what did I do? I did it for you. So what did you learn out in that case? We're going to come back because this is interesting. Success. Okay, Nancy. That's why we were specific on this. Nancy would define that climb as a success, correct?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Okay. In your 14,000 foot Facebook pager clubber thing of a jigger. Okay, what is the stereotypical understanding of success if you're climbing a 14,000? Let's say you're climbing a 14,100 foot mountain.

[B]

What is success getting to 14,100ft?

[A]

Success is getting to 14,100ft. Feet and getting to the summit. And you mark it off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I climbed Shavano. I made it to the top. Here's a picture of me there. I go down. I only got 51 more to go.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Success. Because you did what? You made it to the place you were hoping to go.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, Nancy, you were successful on your climb. You even said very much so in your own definition. So tell me what it looked like at the summit of Shavano for me. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Tell me what it looked like at the summit of Shavano.

[B]

My summit or the summit of the summit. Okay. I have no idea. I did not make it.

[A]

Okay. Is that a failure?

[B]

Not for me.

[A]

But could people. I would agree 1000%. I'm not picking on Nancy at all. 100%. Not a failure. Yeah. Okay. You tell somebody who's never climbed on their own, hey, I went to go climb Shavano. How high did you make it? Okay. A. The person you're talking to has never climbed anywhere in their life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What did it look like from the summit? Okay. And then you say, why didn't. I didn't make it. We had to turn back at whatever 11,000 didn't have. I turned back. I made it to 11,000ft. I made it to 12,000ft. I made it 13,000ft. Whatever. Whatever number you insert there, I made it here, but I didn't make it to the top. And they're going to say in probability, if they know you any to a certain degree, they're going to say, what did it feel like to fail like that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you fail?

[B]

Mm. Mm.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

I accomplished a lot. I learned a lot. I Wanted to feel what it was like to do something like that and I accomplished that. And I learned so much about myself in the process.

[A]

Okay. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Accomplish this. Learned about myself. I can do more than I even thought I was.

[B]

Possible way stronger than I thought I

[A]

was in that whole deal. Even in this. Navigate then. Now we're tying it back to this. Okay. In that. Okay. It ain't like you came. You may argue, it may come close to hey, Jeff sure would have been helpful if you'd have said this is how bad a 14. This is what's going to expect. What is your does your pack that you brought for the day hike, is it going to look the same with items in it the next time you try? No. Why?

[B]

Absolutely not. Because I learned I don't need all that crap.

[A]

So no offense to Nancy is a hard headed mule. Okay. If somebody had just said ah, here's your pack, carry it or don't take this, don't take this, don't take this. Okay. You wouldn't have believed them.

[B]

No, I wouldn't have.

[A]

Would not have. You're going to go out the person stupid. You're going to still put it in there. You got to learn these things on your own.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You got to learn. Oh, I don't, I don't need this. I need to do this. I need to do this. Okay. In it, the gift that you were given. You went and you set up a tent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All by yourself in the middle of the great sand dunes. Were you out isolated? Was there a train wreck?

[B]

Ready?

[A]

No. You had support all around you no matter what happened. Your cars right there. But if the guy. Okay, I'm going to say a guy. Oh, she's the damsel in distress. Nancy over here. Not saying you struggled any but. Oh, she looks like she's having a hard time putting up her tent. I'm going to interject and do it all for you. Nancy, I'm going to put your tent up for you because I'm going to come save the day. I'm going to put the tent in here. Oh, and you don't want to sleep on the ground. Hey, here's this mattress for you. And here's this for you. And here's this for you. Here's this for you. Hey, and I cooked this for you. Here's your meal for tonight. Okay. And hey, I'm going to come wake you up at 5am and I'm going to take you because I know the safest path up the sand dunes and I noticed he, you don't know how to take care of your dog because you let the dog get thorns in its paw. Okay. So I'm going to come and I've got some treatment for the paws and I'll come fix the dog's foot. Okay. And I'm going to, I'm going to take the dog because I will do that for you because I'm going to help you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How much difference does that experience feel to you?

[B]

Oh gosh, so different.

[A]

Okay. Still would have been. You would have been in the same place.

[B]

The, the same thing defeats the whole purpose of what I was trying to do.

[A]

Okay, agreed. It feels good. And so now out of this, what is your response to the trip? Well, look at the dog. What did you learn on that? Okay. Yeah. If you are the leader of somebody else, do you need to be able to look at the environment slightly better than they can see? Yes. Six month old pup doesn't have enough sense. You can't foresee to terrible scenarios of if I throw it too far and she gets confused, she's going to get. And that one, the margin of error from safe to not safe is what do you say, five yards?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At least maybe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they where the current. They narrowed it down in this spot on the side. Slow. If you get to the main tooth of the current, you ain't getting out.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So she got a five yards too far. She don't know. Ain't never seen it before. And she goes down. We'll put, we ought to put this picture out of it. Big rapid. Big, big, big rapid.

[B]

Big rapid.

[A]

Yeah, big rapid.

[B]

It was very scary.

[A]

Very scary. Okay, so there is that there is our job. But so then to keep people out of the dangerous water.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's no. She's not getting out of that. Like you just hope she makes it to the other side.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we learn from that. You're hoping, but then you go, man, crap. I learned I can't take that risk again.

[B]

Right.

[A]

We learn. Okay. We learn. Okay. But we're looking at this deal as it pertains to our people. You go do everything for a human being. Okay. At the end of the day I would say you are not helping them.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

You're not helping them. I don't care where they are. If the tent is up and they sleep in it and whatever. We could have the argument. I'd say if I put the tent up, if I do the whole thing, if I do it solely on my own, I don't care if a bad storm Comes in and they stay dry. I still have not done a service to that person. That is just and good.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

At the bare minimum, they should be part of the process and setting it up so when difficulties come again. Okay, maybe the first time I would argue man storms coming in and lightning's everywhere and Nancy's struggling putting up her tent, which wasn't the scenario. But if that is a occurring, it's an injustice for me to sit on the sideline and go, huh? I hope she figures out pretty quick because she's going to get hit by lightning or she's going to get soaking wet. No, help her out, be part of it. Help lead and go, hey, hey, grab this, do this, do this, do this, do this, do this. Okay. She's still part of the process.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And then after it teach again. But if I just put it up and she gets out of the storm, when it comes again, she's still in the same boat. Yeah, Nancy. Now if she's got that tent, if even it's in trunk of her car, okay. Even if it's in the trunk of her car, okay. Don't want it. But no matter what, you go backpacking at late, you go walking at Lake Somerville and I don't care what some worst of the worst scenarios happens. Okay, what do you now know about Nancy? No matter what comes, I can survive.

[B]

I can put up my own tent and put my stuff together and have my dog and I'll be just fine.

[A]

You can make it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You got baseline that you know what you can do. Shavano. You now know you have to taste it on your own of what would I do differently? What would I do better? What would I do? Not take. What do I need to take? Do I like these shoes? Do I need to study the map better? Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah. That's fact.

[A]

Fact. Okay. So then in it, we come to this place of this difficult question here of success or failure. Okay. So like for me, and yes, I am going to do a little showing up of Nancy right here. So like when I was climbing Illimani in Bolivia, okay, we made it to 20,600ft. Okay. Summit's 21,000. Me and another guy from Colorado, we turned around at 20,600ft inside of the summit. Like you could see it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. And we turned around and we did not even attempt to summit because the guy I was with was far more knowledgeable than me. Just a stranger I happened to meet, but super, super intelligent climber at that place. It got very dangerous, very this and that there's a chance we would have died on that one. It was bad. Okay. He says I've had enough of this mountain. I'm done. Turned around. He flew all the way from United States to Bolivia to climb this mountain. And he turns around. And this guy had done so in mountain climbing. So United States. 14,000 foot mountains are big. That's like the pinnacle. I mean Our biggest is 14633 Mount Whitney. Okay. Biggest in Colorado is Mount Elbert's. So we would say, you know, done both of those. So I can look at every mountain of Colorado. Go up. Been higher. Go to Mount Whitney and go Ben, higher. Did Kilimanjaro highest in Africa. Been higher than all of that. Okay. This guy had done real mountains. So in real Mountains are 7,000 meter peaks and above. Okay. So any other mountain doesn't even count as a Mountain. So 7,000 meters. So almost 22,000ft is a real mountain. Very few of those. There's a handful of those. Whatever. There's 10, eight, something like that. It's small number of 22 and above. It's. Maybe there's more. I think it's. You know. But there's a very small number of that. This guy had done three of those real mountains.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He's legit. And he turns around. Dad.

[B]

Enough.

[A]

Baffled me because I was still young. I'm not old like I am now. It was all about just getting to the top. Even if it killed you. Because this noble pursuit of I'm just gonna. That's success. I'm going to get up there. Stupid decision. There's so many other factors that are going into so many other things that you're going, okay. But this guy's. The struggle was never against the mountain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he knew what risk he was putting himself in. He probably did it for me because I didn't have enough sense to understand what in the world I'm getting into. I don't know why he did it still. But out of that we do that. We get down. I come back. I had gone to Bolivia. I had flown to Bolivia. I had stayed in the country and been up in the mountains for 10 days prior to be acclimated. Go on this trip, all of this stuff and you come down and I didn't make it. Didn't make it 20,600ft still. I can go look any. I guarantee it right now. I can go find if there's a handful, if there's two other people in all the temple. I'll give you a Thousand bucks that have seen the world from 20,000ft.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They ain't here still to this day. That was, golly, a lot of years ago. Everybody will say, man, when you gonna try it again? You gotta see if you can succeed at that mountain. It's gotta eat you up that you failed. Okay. Didn't fail. I tried it on my own. I went by myself. I happened to meet a stranger there. I'm going by myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. We do a disservice here to our people sometimes, and in this nonprofit helping world of doing everything for all the people we come in contact with because we believe they are incapable of doing things on their own.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

Disservice. Okay. Now, with that being said, it is unjust for me to say, nancy, good luck camping at the Great Sand Dunes and don't give her a tent. We practiced putting up the tent before you went on your own, so you are familiar with it in a safe environment. You learn, you see it, you do it. So when it goes in the situation and you do it on your own, you're already prepared for it.

[B]

Yeah. And I did. I did do some research on my own, too. So I took it upon myself to try to familiarize myself as much as I could with what we were going to attempt. It didn't prepare me fully for the

[A]

experience itself, but how much better prepared are you for the next one?

[B]

Oh, so much.

[A]

And then what are you already doing in your head?

[B]

Getting ready to get, you know, get out there and do it again. Do it again.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. We learn from that. You are empowered. You're invigorated. You learned and you learned about yourself and what you can do and what you can't do, and now you're trying even more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So two weeks or a week prior to this trip, were you even thinking of, man, I could go hike in this place around here. And then next week I'm going to go hike in this place.

[B]

No. No, I wasn't.

[A]

What did it take?

[B]

Getting a taste.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Like attempting it on my own.

[A]

Your own?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Disservice if anybody had done the whole thing for you. You're not a backpacker, Right. You got a cool picture at the summit. Nothing wrong with that. Okay. But you're not falling in love and learning about your strengths and what you can do and how to do it as it entails for Nancy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everybody's climb is different. My pack looks different than yours. Okay. So everybody has to learn what they can carry, what they can't how to do it, how to have this stuff, how to have a support system around there that sets them up to succeed.

[B]

I would even say too, one of the things that I've been trying to navigate is working in a ministry and how God plays into all of this as well. He met me on that mountain 100%.

[A]

That's a whole other.

[B]

Actually probably should be the other way I met him there.

[A]

Okay, fair.

[B]

He, I think without having gone through that by myself, with the very limited knowledge that I had, I would have not been as open to his words and you know, that his messages that he was trying to give me as I was. So if you look at that same thought process with our people who are walking in these various challenges that they're dealing with, he has to be able to meet them there too. He's got to. If we are in the way and we're blocking, you know, whatever sort of challenge that they may have that would open them up to his messages, we're doing them a huge disservice. Like, that was the thing that I pulled off that mountain more than anything else was just this understanding that God wanted me there to hear him.

[A]

Agreed. So like then last little deal. Okay, didn't happen. But you're tired on the trail, you're going up, shaving up, whether you should be there or not. Okay, whatever. But you are part of the 14,000 foot Facebook club, so you have every right. So they give you a little card and goes, here's your card. Yep, I can climb 14,000 foot mountains because I am part of the 14er Facebook group. Okay. So but you're there and you're climbing and you're having a difficult time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And somebody comes by who is strong. Like, not that you're not strong, but they, they see you there and they go, okay, get on my back. I'm carrying you up to the top. Did you disservice?

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Did you disservice? Because it's not solely about the climb. It's about Nancy meeting Nancy along the climb to get to wherever on that mountain was your stopping off point.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

success. We can get in the way of that by doing everything for the person and believing they are incapable of anything, then it does a disservice to them because then they believe I can't do anything on my own.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So we have this system and then, okay, don't to this whole lot of pet peeve I have with some other people in this world because then it leads. It does feel good. Okay. To others. If you keep people in that situation and it feels like you're doing good. Oh, I've got to carry Nancy's pack again. Look at me. She's going to be so happy with me. I'm carrying her pack again. Look at. And Nancy's over there because she knows nothing else other than I must have. I don't know. Whatever. Insert female name here. Whatever. Okay. I don't want to say the name. Okay. But it feels good. It feels like you're doing right. And just by going. I'm going to carry it for them because they can't do it on their own. Look, Nancy's in the same spot again. I'm going to carry her back for her. Now. Let Nancy carry her pack for a bit. Let Nancy go on her own for a bit and figure out who she is. Let her find out she's capable of doing things on her own. Her own.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But do it in such a way. Like at the great sand dunes camping deal. There was 50 other campsites within 100 yards of her. There is zero percent chance that if she got in a bad situation, there was not somebody right there that would help in a second for sure. She. We're not saying throw somebody out to the wolves, but let her be on her own for a bit and figure it out in a safe and good environment that she's trained to be able to handle. She'd already put the tent up. She'd already looked at it. We'd already made sure all the parts were in it. Everything was set. Let her do it. Let her climb on the own. Okay. Could have looked at the map and go. That's a little much. You realize you got four extra miles on the trip just to make it to the starting point if you go to here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really? No, I didn't realize that.

[B]

4 extra miles really hurt.

[A]

They do. That's a lot of money. That's four miles. But to look at that. Oh, no, it didn't even. Because it looks pretty small on a map.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Okay. And you realize how tight these lines are. They're called contour lines. And the tighter they are together, that means the steeper the trail is. Look at the gain of altitude in this stretch right here. It's going to be brutal. You sure?

[B]

I thought I walk four miles a day anyway. Like, this is not going to be

[A]

a problem at all. But you are a member of fourteener Facebook page group.

[B]

Lest we forget.

[A]

Lest we forget that back when I was trying a fourteener in Colorado. Yeah. I Remember when I was on Shavano. And I realized dogs can drink out of the stream? No, they can.

[B]

We7 there is some sort of bacterial something or other in there, but apparently it doesn't affect her because she is fine.

[A]

So all of this to come back to simply this. It gets so complicated. Okay, so then out of this, we can put ourselves in such a place that we're blocking people's view of God.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

It had been such a travesty. Nancy's going up that deal and you got some moron standing right next to her. Doesn't even let her see what's all around her. Yeah, you go, get out of the way. Let me see on my own. Stop pointing out everything. You want to see chipmunks, I want to see mule deer, so stop pointing out chipmunks to me. Let me see a mule deer. Just get out of my way. Okay? And so you're like, okay. And then also you're saying, okay. Obviously you don't necessarily want to say this on the front side. If somebody said, hey, I can get you top of Mount Shavano, you'd have gone, okay, great, because I want to get to the top of Mount Shavano. But really, that wasn't the task at hand. You want to figure out what Nancy can do on her own because why. That's how mountain climbers are made. They are made through failure. Because there is no winning or losing. And climbing a mountain, there is no winning or losing. It is not success. You is not. I made it to the summer and failure is I did not. Success is I climbed. Okay? And in mountain climbing, the. Well, you know this because you're in the. The what is that group that you're a member of? You're part of the 14,000 to ask them the number one rule. Okay, so then here we're going to put her. She likes pop quizzes. So. And we're going to end on this, the number one rule. And I've said it to you, the number one rule of any mountain climber when they're climbing a mountain. The number one rule for all mountain climbers that is non negotiable. The only non negotiable rule for any mountain climber is what

[B]

number one non negotiable rule?

[A]

Every mountain climber, whether you climb in Everest or you're climbing a 14er or you're climbing Enchanted Rock, what is the non negotiable. Okay. Rule for all mountain climbers?

[B]

Pack it in, pack it out.

[A]

What kind of bathroom analogy? Oh, yeah, I'm Sorry. That's the number one metaphor for life is what to do with your toilet paper. I don't know what y' all are Doing on Yalls 14,000 Foot Facebook page, but it is not figuring out what to do with your toilet paper. Leave no trees. Great. That's a wonderful one. Pack it in. Pack it out. What in the heck? Is not the number one non negotiable rule of backpackers. Holy crud. A moly game. What in the world. Okay. The number one non negotiable rule for backpackers which has now lost a little bit of its sting, is not it in Pack it out. The number one rule is getting to the summit is optional. Getting back down alive and safe is mandatory.

[B]

That's a much better rule.

[A]

Okay. All of this stuff, these arbitrary rules that we put on stuff that say success or failure to make this giant circle back. I don't know. Some are going to make the summit, some are not going to make the summit. Some. But everyone is going to make their summit. We are equipping people to climb and climb on their own and to meet God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's the job. I want to raise up a group of people that desire to climb and to re. And then on the their own. In a relative term.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that person then has so much more belief in themselves than they did before they even stepped on the mountain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's success. And then somebody who's willing to go, I'll try it again. But you failed, Nancy. Why do you even go backpacking again? You didn't even make it to the top. You must not be good at it. What do you say to that?

[B]

Oh, but it was. It was super successful and so much fun. I enjoyed every minute of it.

[A]

Are you a climber?

[B]

I'm a climber.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

There you go. Okay. There you go. And you had to figure that out for you.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

You got to figure it out for you. I can't tell you you're that. Nobody can tell you that. You got to go find out on your own. And you got to find out. Look what I can do. Baseline you left and you came back to Colorado. And you go. No matter what happens. Not that. Whatever. Maybe it depends on what conspiracy deal you're all into. But the world collapses. Or this or that. No matter what comes Nancy now can say, huh? I can make me a place to stay. I'm alright. What a gift.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What a gift. So all of that would make a big circle to say success or failure. And what was interesting is that's not even what we were going to talk about. We were going to talk about predators in this world. And we may do that next week because that's a whole other deal. Yeah. Is while people are climbing to look at the dangers that come with the climb and this and that. But predators in our world is really what we were going to talk about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we could not not talk about what it means to be successful. So out of there, I hope you look at yourself. And I would say this. What's the guy that said two paths converge in the wood and I took the one least traveled by and that's made all the difference in my life. It's a mountain climber. Okay. You out there, do not always settle for the easiest path. Do not always settle for allowing others to determine what you can or cannot do do based on what they are willing to do for you. Step out and understand that true growth among yourself is to step into that gray area where success and failure are arbitrary and they don't really exist. The only failure for Nancy on the climb is to not have gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The only failure for Nancy was to believe others saying, you can't do this. Even if the net byproduct in others who do nothing in the mountain climb. Only reason I can say this, I'm adamant on this side because I've been there. Only people that would look upon this and say, ah, failure, Not a mountain climber. If somebody's never even bothered to step foot on a mountain.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

They don't know. They don't know. So if you're out there, live in that gray area where success and failure. What in the world I climb. When I'm done with this mountain, I'll go to the next one. When I'm done with that one, I'll go to the next one climb. Because then in that. Okay. What we would say to all people and I'll say to you in the climb, the scariest thing is you get to meet you. And in the climb, when you are allowed to climb on your own, you are able to hear the whisper that is God. And you don't have to listen to this gibberish voice of me or somebody else or anybody else telling you what you can and can't do, you go and you climb. And when you are done with it, you turn around and you said, I'm done. Let the world define success or failure. You left the mountain. You went to the mountain. Not a climber. You left the mountain, a climber. And now a member of a 14,000 foot Facebook page and now knows the number one rule of backpacking, which is what she already stinking forgot.

[B]

Make it down safely.

[A]

Make it down safely.

[B]

That's what you said.

[A]

Getting to the top is not optional.

[B]

Yes,

[A]

getting to the top is optional. Getting back down to the bottom, safe, non, negotiable. It's not optional.

[B]

I was really close.

[A]

To what? Not making it down safely. I'm not gonna doubt that. We're not even gonna go there. Okay. The dog got prickly pears in the great sand dunes, which we didn't confess. Somebody jumped in and saved the dog at the rapids in Salida. And then you let the dog drink out of stagnant water coming down and it's somehow alive still.

[B]

She is. She has some kind of weird fungus on her, but other than that.

[A]

Okay, all of you out there, I hope you heard this and enjoyed because you can see even in your life, everybody, everybody, whether they intend to or not, they will define what success or failure looks like to you. And that's a disservice to you.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Everybody, parents and all of this stuff won't even get down that we don't want to watch anybody struggle. And we do everything for everybody and not allowing them because in the struggle is where beautiful things are created.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

but we jump in there and I'm not even going to say, I am not of the opinion anymore that we jump in there necessarily for well intended things. I think it is for selfish motivation because it makes us feel good and it makes us look important. The longer I work in this world and the more I watch some of this stuff, the more I get into that camp, it just feels good to have somebody have to depend on me because all these other relationships that are so bad for me, okay, or whoever you are, at least in this one, everybody depends on me. And they say I'm nice and they say I'm good. And I do this and this for them and I'm actually harming them. It makes me feel good. Yeah, it makes me look good, but I'm blocking God out of that picture. So enough of that. Okay? Hope you have a great day. And next week we will get on to the topic at hand and we will go from there. Okay, Later.