David Christopher Kaufman - "Jews Defending Jews is a Revolutionary Act"

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table
Episode: David Christopher Kaufman – "Jews Defending Jews is a Revolutionary Act"
Date: March 28, 2025

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Overview

This episode features journalist and commentator David Christopher Kaufman, who discusses Jewish identity, antisemitism in America post-October 7th, the dynamics of “sideline Jews,” and the unique challenges and transformative moments facing Jews today. Kaufman, whose background is both African American and Jewish, offers personal and cultural insights on the state of Jewish advocacy, intergroup tensions, and the double standards in how minority vulnerabilities are acknowledged and addressed in the US. The discussion is candid, unflinching, and often threaded with humor—true to the Comedy Cellar’s ethos.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Sideline Jew” Phenomenon and Institutional Responses

• Column Discussion: Kaufman unpacks his recent NY Post column, "When Will Sideline Jews Finally Begin to Stand Up Against Their Haters?" ([03:24])
  • He notes that many Jews are frightened or reluctant to speak out against antisemitism, partly due to a lack of institutional support.
  • Kaufman praises recent strong policy actions responding to antisemitism, notably mentioning the Trump administration’s “top-down” stance.
  • Kaufman: “If those people had been black or gay or transgender, none of this would have been allowed to happen.” ([04:21])
  • The group debates the legality and wisdom of deportation as a response to campus threats, landing on the importance of properly vetting visa holders rather than blanket policies ([05:45]).

2. Fear, Blame, and the Burden of Advocacy

• Kaufman recounts wealthy Jews in Miami who, even with significant resources, are afraid to publicly protest or confront events involving perceived antisemitism (e.g., Ta-Nehisi Coates speaking at a major Jewish-sponsored venue) for fear of being labeled racist ([08:14]).
  • Kaufman: “There’s nothing racist about calling Ta-Nehisi Coates an antisemite. There’s nothing racist about calling his book, you know, a stain on the publishing industry.” ([10:47])

3. Parallels Between Jewish and Black American Experiences

• The hosts and Kaufman explore similarities and differences in day-to-day minority insecurity.
  • Host reflects that contemporary Jewish anxiety is akin to Black apprehension about policing—pervasive, subtle, hard to quantify but undeniably real ([16:09]).
  • Kaufman: “As a black person in this country you constantly live with a fear... as a black man, the cops could come and start effing with me... with a sense of impunity.” ([16:09])
  • For Jews, Kaufman argues the difference is that, "Jews are being told, this is your fault. You are the architect of your own oppression." ([17:58])

4. On Internalized Narratives and Double Standards

• There’s a deep dive into the narrative that Jews benefit exclusively from white privilege and are thus less entitled to claim victimhood, particularly in left-leaning institutions and DEI circles ([36:11]).
  • Kaufman: “Why must Jews atone for their success? ... Indians are extremely successful in America... nobody’s asking them to atone.” ([36:11])
  • He expresses dismay at Jewish organizations publicly accepting the idea that Jews “must do the work” to address their “privilege,” a framing he calls dangerous and self-sabotaging ([37:46]).

5. Antisemitism in the Black Community — Nuance and Media Narratives

• Both Kaufman and guests clarify that, in their lived experience, widespread Black antisemitism is largely a media mythology. Antisemitism is more complex and context-dependent.
  • Kaufman: “Most American blacks are just not really thinking a lot about Jews, which is like fine for me.” ([33:30])
  • Hasidic communities, in particular, are pointed out as insular and often challenging for outsiders of all backgrounds ([31:48]).

6. Racial Identity, Belonging, and Zionism

• Kaufman reflects on his personal story as a Black and Jewish American, how his background influenced his worldview, and particularly, his strong feelings of belonging in Israel ([43:43]):
  • “Israel is the only place in the whole world where I literally feel like everybody else.” ([44:00])
  • He discusses the emotional impact of October 7th and Israel’s importance as a refuge for Jewish identity.
  • Issues of racialization and the “white colonizer” trope are critiqued as distractions that ultimately serve anti-Jewish violence.
    • Kaufman: “Any talk of Jews and race is always basically a pathway to legitimizing our extermination.” ([47:30])

7. Jewish Education and the Crisis of Advocacy

• Kaufman and the hosts lament that even Jews themselves are too often poorly equipped to make the case for Israel; the community is not educated on “the simple bullet points” necessary to argue effectively in public discourse ([50:04]).
  • Co-host: “Anti-Semites know all about the Talmud and the arcane... We Jews... just want to go—‘Oh, you’re anti-Semites, you want all this dead?’ But what we haven’t done is educated ourselves and the general public on our very simple case.” ([51:25])

8. The Episode’s Thesis: Jews Defending Jews as a Revolutionary Act

• Kaufman’s closing insight: the unprecedented moment in Jewish history is that Jews can now defend themselves. This, in itself, is a revolutionary act.
  • Kaufman: “History is…there’s very few examples of Jews being able to defend other Jews. This is an ahistorical condition in the world today... Jews defending Jews is a revolutionary act and we as Jews need to be revolutionaries today.” ([51:55])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fear of Speaking Out

  • “We have multiple examples of people like Spielberg who are, you know, astoundingly wealthy and insulated from any sort of repercussions from taking bold statements. And they say nothing.” — David Kaufman ([07:37])

• On Blame and Responsibility

  • “Jews are being told, this is your fault. This…is being supported by the institutions that are supposed to be protecting us.” — David Kaufman ([17:58])

• On the “Sideline Jews”

  • “Jews defending Jews is a historical, unprecedented condition, experience, moment...Jews defending Jews is a revolutionary act and we as Jews need to be revolutionaries today.” — David Kaufman ([51:55])

• On the Reality of Black-Jewish Relations

  • “Most American blacks are just not really thinking a lot about Jews, which is like fine for me.” — David Kaufman ([33:30])

• On the Israel “White Colonizer” Trope

  • “Any talk of Jews and race is always basically a pathway to legitimizing our extermination.” — David Kaufman ([47:30])

• On Personal Belonging and Zionism

  • “Israel is the only place in the whole world where I literally feel like everybody else...it’s the only place where I truly feel like I can actually be myself.” — David Kaufman ([44:00])

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Key Timestamps

• [03:24] – Introduction of the NY Post column “Sideline Jews”
• [05:45] – Debate on government responses and policy
• [08:14] – Coates incident and fear of public advocacy
• [16:09] – Parallels between Black and Jewish anxieties in America
• [21:46] – Noting Jewish voices hostile to Israel
• [29:54] – Kaufman’s family and religious background
• [33:30] – The portrayal of Black antisemitism in the media
• [36:11] – Double standards and expectations on Jews
• [43:43] – Kaufman on being Zionistic and belonging in Israel
• [50:04] – Jewish self-education and advocacy crisis
• [51:55] – The episode’s concluding thesis: “Jews defending Jews is a revolutionary act”

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Tone and Style

The episode is frank, spirited, and intellectually rigorous, balancing serious commentary with signature Comedy Cellar banter. Kaufman speaks with directness and edge, challenging both his interlocutors and the broader Jewish community to recognize a historic turning point for Jewish self-advocacy.

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For New Listeners

This episode is an incisive window into post-October 7th Jewish discourse in America, shining a light on communal anxiety, the politics of identity, and the need for a bolder, better-prepared response to modern antisemitism. Whether you’re Jewish, Black, or simply curious about the intersections of identity and justice, Kaufman’s insights and the hosts’ challenging questions will give you much to think about.

Transcript

[Host]

Yes, that was David Kaufman. He joins us. Editor and columnist at the New York Post and a regular writer for the Telegraph, the Spectator, Air Mail and the Forward, and an adjunct fellow at the Tel Aviv Institute. Welcome, David. By the way, you mentioned, you know, I think the most. The best. I guess the best description of just how horrifying it was to be a slave was that I've read was 12 Years a Slave. The book, not the movie. I don't know if you read the book.

[David Kaufman]

I didn't. I didn't read the book. I saw the movie, of course, but.

[Host]

The book I would recommend to anybody that. So interested in that.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And by the way, it just made me think so I didn't. I didn't know that you were half African American till I. Till I just met you. Imagine.

[David Kaufman]

Full of surprises.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Imagine if you and I had an argument about something.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And let's say it was a. What are you talking about? Normal. Show your sources.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And then the people on my side of the argument started calling you. The N word started. You know, what do you expect from my house then? And then uncle, like, just. And I. And I just sat back and allowed this army of vile racists to do my bidding.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Because we disagreed about something.

[David Kaufman]

People. We live in a culture where people don't want to be challenged for their beliefs. They're this sort of. This idea that, you know, if they feel something or emote something or if it's a vibe, then it's legit. It's legit to them. That's their lived experience.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I mean, what would it say about me as a human being? I mean, there are.

[David Kaufman]

It would say you're lame.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

It would. It would. It would be the worst indictment of me that just because these monsters agreed. They don't even agree with me. They don't even know. They just, you know, taking my side, I said, but so it's like, okay, get them. Like, you know, it's like you have these. These dogs or, you know, it's like the. What's that in that? One of the Hannibal Lecter movies, they have those wild boars that eat. He's like. It's like, get him. It's like, sick. The wild boars on him. It's true. In the past, when you guys were. When we were being, you know, nice with each other, I did tell from time to time, one of my father, don't say that about Norm. Don't say it about Norm. But now that the gloves are off, it's disgusting to me.

[David Kaufman]

Them is fighting words but what if.

[Host]

You'Re somebody with million followers and, you know, somewhere within that mix, there's some people that make these comments. It's possible you don't see everything or you don't. I mean, you know.

[Guest/Commentator]

Oh, come on.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

He knows.

[Guest/Commentator]

He sees it. He doesn't care.

[Host]

I mean, I'm just saying. I think it's. I think there's a larger discussion to be had. At what point would one. Or should one. Or should immediately intervene?

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Immediately. No, no one is going to defend me by calling somebody the N word. I'm not going to allow that for two seconds. It's. It's. It's insane.

[Guest/Commentator]

You didn't even have to consult all those experts, though. You could have just asked me. I would have told you.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

All right, all right. David.

[David Kaufman]

Yes.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Very nice to meet you. Let me shake your hand.

[David Kaufman]

I've arrived late. I'm so sorry. It's very unlikely, so.

[Host]

Well, no, you. Because there was a mistake made and.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You believe me, we'll blame Perry on the matter.

[Host]

Yeah, it might have been Perry.

[David Kaufman]

Perfect. That sounds like a plan. And I can't wait for the blame fest to begin.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

All right, let's go through it. So you had a recent. I don't have the headline in front of me because I actually thought you weren't coming. She didn't tell us that. The recent. The recent New York Post column, the most recent one. What was the headline?

[David Kaufman]

It was, when Will Sideline Jews Finally Begin to Stand Up Against Their Haters?

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Okay.

[David Kaufman]

And it was sort of like, my thinking was like, we have Trump now in the Oval. He's like, you know, he's flexing his muscles. And some supported the Jews finally, in a way that, you know, the previous administration obviously couldn't be bothered. And he's taking all this stuff very seriously. And I was saying to myself, you know, wow, like this. One of the challenges we've seen so much in this period since October 7th is that, you know, I think a lot of Jews are obviously very scared, very, very timid. They're. They're afraid to speak up. And part of the reason why is because we have a. We had a system that, you know, if they did speak up, they didn't feel like they'd be. They'd be protected or defended. And now we have real institutional and policy changes from the top down, literally from the top, saying, you know, if you're going to chase Jewish students and do bad things towards Jews, we're going to, like, we're going to deport your ass. So my Thinking, how do you feel.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

About that, by the way?

[David Kaufman]

I think it's great. You know, I think. I mean, I don't. You know, there's obviously limits. We have to exist within the Constitution, and we have to just within sort of the basic civil rights of this society. We're not going to. We can't rewrite. We can't rewrite the government to take care of Jews. But I think, actually, if you look at. On the flip side, the period that we've experienced since October 7th, if those people had been black or gay or transgender, none of this would have been allowed to happen. I mean, the way Jews have been neglected by the system and what's, to me, been the most horrific thing is that not only have we been demonize, you know, chased. Chased to the streets, you know, had our kids not able to go to school, our businesses burned, people actually die, but we've been actually blamed for it. We've been told that this is our fault because, you know, we're Zionists or because we're aligned with. Because we're Jewish or we've been. It's the only instance of, like, widespread ethnic discrimination I've ever seen in America in recent time where the actual victims have been blamed and have been held, have been tasked with solving these problems. So. So I think that I'm happy. I mean, I'm not happy with a lot of the things Trump is doing, but I think it's very important that he's sending these messages that, you know, that, you know, America cannot exist in this sort of orgy of anti. Semitism.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah, I'll let you finish. I don't.

[David Kaufman]

Just.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Just people might be wondering. I don't support the deportations. I'm not an expert in all the considerations, but I don't think it's legal. And even if it is legal, I don't think it's good policy because.

[David Kaufman]

It'S.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

The kind of thing which is going to be used in a very ad hoc basis based on the predilections of whoever's in charge. I don't think this is wise. Now, having said that, and I'll let you continue, I think a good look should be taken on what it means to be letting people in, how they.

[David Kaufman]

Get here in the first place.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah, that I think is totally valid.

[David Kaufman]

Why do we have. I mean, this guy clearly has Mahmoud Khalid. He clearly has a paper trail of Hamas, you know, alliances and. And, you know, at the end of the day, as much as Hamas wants to take down Israel and kill all the Jews, they kind of want to take down America and kill the Americans, too. So there. It's not good that these people are in this country. And my piece was basically looking, saying, you know, saying, will this give the confidence or will it embolden what I called sideline Jews. All of these Jews that we know, who we see on Instagram and we see at parties and we see here and there, who basically have said nothing.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Who. Who. Give me a better picture of who sideline who, where. Who sidelined you. And that I might know. But when you tap on the table because we have a crappy thing.

[David Kaufman]

Sorry about that. Well, I mean, it's. There's. There's so, you know, there's so many. And we could talk. We could start. You know, Steven Spielberg could be in some ways considered a sideline to you as much as he's done so much. Amazing. I mean, I'm a graduate of Brandeis University. We have the Shoah Institute. It's because of him. So he's clearly had a very strong commitment towards memorializing the stories of Holocaust survivors, which is extremely important.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah, but the last scene in Munich showed the Trade center, remember? And Munich was a sketchy.

[David Kaufman]

But we've have. We have multiple examples of people like Spielberg who are, you know, astoundingly wealthy and insulated from any sort of repercussions from taking bold statements. And they say nothing. I mean, there's. I lay out in the piece a perfect example, like during the height of the Ta Nehisi Coates scandal a couple months ago from his horrific evil book. The message, which I basically wrote, is a minecamp for the 21st century.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You don't miss words.

[David Kaufman]

I don't mince words. It is a Minec for 21st century. It's a primer for Jew, for Jew killing, basically. He's basically very cleverly laid out how we can kill Jews and get away with it.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I don't know about it. Go ahead.

[David Kaufman]

I read that book many times. I know mine. Kampf or no, the message. I have not read Mein Kampf many times. But my point. And then after that piece came out and I was one of the first people to write about it, I was very critical. And obviously, I can get away with writing about things like this because I'm also half African American in a way that people cannot. But what was really. And I write this in the piece, what was really disturbing and disappointing to me was afterwards I received multiple, multiple, multiple messages from people in Florida who were horrified that Coates was coming to Miami to give A speech to give a reading at the Adrian Arsht center, which is, you know, named after one of the most important Jewish families. And they were horrified that he was coming on October 8th, you know, to talk, to have a reading in conjunction with a bookstore, another, a Jewish owned bookstore. So all the, all the players, all the people that were, that were bringing him there were basically, you know, in the Jewish world. And I, and I said to them, you know, wow, this is like, you know, really disappointing that he's coming, so what are you guys going to do about it? And they were like, well, we can't speak out. We're afraid to speak out. We're afraid of being called racist. We'll be afraid of being called white supremacist. We're afraid. And I said, have you connected with the local adl, the local confederation, you know, Jewish federations and all of these institutions basically were afraid to speak up against him coming to Florida. And they were somehow looking to me to sort of like figure out what to do and how to save them. And these were very, very, very wealthy people. We're talking about people with like, you know, eight to nine, not eight to nine zeros after their net worth, you know. And like, you know, I'm just like a, I'm just like a simple guy like trying to make the mortgage. Okay.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

It's like hundreds of millions or billions of dollars per.

[Guest/Commentator]

And you are really interesting in dangerous territory.

[David Kaufman]

Why?

[Guest/Commentator]

No, okay. Not you.

[David Kaufman]

Okay. No. So these are people who are, you know, who have nothing to lose. You know, like they, and they were.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Like afraid they've reached escape velocity.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah. And they were afraid to speak up because they were going to be called racist. And I was like, I'm trying to understand here, like this man who later on that.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Well, just to be, just to be fair with you to what you're saying, I, I, you know, I agree with you thousand percent, but I would say they do have a lot to be to lose because money is not everything being, being called racist. If that, if that impression sticks, that is a tremendous damage to somebody. It's not just about the fact that you still have enough money to do whatever you want. That's a very, that's not all there is in life.

[David Kaufman]

Of course, that's a very good point and I don't disagree with you, but there's nothing racist about, no, there is calling Ta Nehisi Coates an anti Semite. There's nothing racist about calling his book, you know, a stain on the publishing industry. There's nothing racist about questioning why was this man allowed to even write this book? I mean, can you imagine if, like a white person parachuted into Africa, a place they'd never been before, and wrote, you know, a takedown of the entire culture after only spending 10 days there? No, I mean, the irony. The. The irony of Ta Nehisi Coates using the word apartheid against Israel for the 10 million times they use it in that book, that he's never even been to south. That's the irony. You know, I use the term apartheid very, very sparingly because I have been to South Africa. I know exactly what that looked like. And when it.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You were there during the apartheid era?

[David Kaufman]

No, not during apartheid, but I've seen what the results of it. But the point is, it's like not only had he never been to Israel before, but he'd never even to South Africa. So how does he even know what apartheid looks like? But my point is, like, there is nothing racist about calling his book anti Semitic, anti Zionistic, a call for violence. I mean, he went on one of the podcasts a few days.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

There is an interesting parallel, is there not, between the fact that many of us and you're actually making the argument, say, you know, you can't criticize anything that has to do with anybody that has anything to do with being black. They'll call you a racist. And if you listen to Darrell Kuber's followers, they say, you can't criticize anything about being Jewish. They'll call you an anti Semite. And I'm not completely comfortable dismissing or, you know, agreeing to either of them, because they're all. There is some truth on both sides of those arguments.

[David Kaufman]

Yes, but. But the difference is that his book was extremely anti Zionistic. It was extremely anti. I don't, I don't view a difference between anti Zionism, antisemitism. So in my opinion, it was extremely anti Semitic. I mean, the chapter, the portion about Israel, the third part that was basically like, you know, the, The. The money shot of the book, it literally opens up the first sentence of the portion of Israel says, I. I'm not quoting it verbatim, but I will say it says, I was in. I went to. He visits Yad Vashem, and he says something to the extent the Holocaust Memorial Museum. Holocaust Memorial of, Of in Israel. And he says, on my first day in. I believe he said, on my first day in Palestine, I went to Yad Vashem. Like, that's his opening line. That is probably one of the most anti Semitic, anti Zionistic. Statements that has ever been published by Random House. I mean, you're basically saying that one Israel doesn't exist, Jerusalem as its capital doesn't exist, and Yad Vashem exists in Palestine. All of that is factually, let alone morally, let alone like from an editor perspective. Like, who let this, how did this get past an editor? How did this make it into the final.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

As he calls. He writes whatever he wants. As he should, you know.

[David Kaufman]

No, he shouldn't. Well, I, I don't think he should write whatever he wants.

[Guest/Commentator]

Why should he write whatever he wants?

[Host]

Well, he can write what he wants. They're not obligated to publish.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

He's a free human.

[Host]

But, you know, you can write what you want.

[David Kaufman]

You can write what you want. But the problem with, and this is what I'm talking about with this idea of timidity is that there's been this bamboo boozlement of some American Jews who are either to, who are either have bought into this system of like racial oppression hierarchy where like, you know, Jews are not allowed to sort of advocate for their own needs or security or safety. I mean, let's, let's be really frank here. Like, we're living in a moment of. We're living in a moment of examples of extreme Jewish insecurity and a lack of safety to the extent which we really haven't seen amongst other minorities. I mean, we had the instant that, that sort of the period of like Asian hate a couple of years ago. But if you look at the statistics, they were nothing compared to the.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I don't think that was real. That was real. And I don't know that there's been a lot of actual violence against Jews. But there was this certainly feeling.

[Guest/Commentator]

Of course there has. All you have to do is look at the stats like violence against Jews in anti Semitic acts.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Look at the room.

[David Kaufman]

There were more, There were more anti Semitic incidents against Jews in New York City last year than any in of the other ethnic groups combined.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

By the way, that's been the status quo for a long time.

[Guest/Commentator]

No, but that number has like tripled.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I don't know that a lot of Jews are being. Whatever it is, it is. But I just, I just don't ever want to exaggerate anything. There is a. I think the, my opinion, Listen, it kind of reminds me about again, a race parallel. I always used to feel that it was obviously untrue that many innocent black people, unarmed black people were being shot by the cops.

[David Kaufman]

The numbers around that didn't support those.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

It was a, it was it was a minuscule number, actually. No. And statistically, based on the number of arrests and police and there would be an eruption when these happened, I would say, you know, that's not true. But why is it erupting? It's, it's erupting because of all the kind of humiliations, the day to day humiliations that wholesome, innocent black people were suffering with the cops.

[David Kaufman]

Even, even not wholesome people. I mean, it goes as someone who's black, as a black man, I will say, like it speaks to the idea that as a black person in this country you constantly live with a fear that you're going to be messed with by the authorities simply because of the color of your skin. And what I will say is that this is another piece.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Let me, let me make my point. So, and I knew because I, because especially because of all my time playing in bands and stuff. And I knew these stories firsthand. I'd seen these things happen firsthand. And I said, well, actually when you see this eruption about the people being innocent people being killed, what you're really seeing is a manifestation of this righteous resentment. When I say righteous, meaning it was real. There was another. You could say, well, you could ask the really unrealistic ask of people say, well, yeah, but you have to understand it's inevitable because of all the crime rates. Get into that morass. But, but the, I knew that this resentment was real and that this was just finding its, this is the escape hatch. Was this, was, was this. Similarly, I think with us Jews, what we are really feeling, our righteous resentment is that in so many atmospheric ways, just in our reluctance to tell somebody that our, that we're Jewish, God forbid, wear any kind of ethnic symbol that just this, this kind of thing gathering storm, the dark cloud that is that we are now feeling as Jews, any flyer you might put up on a lamppost at anything, you know is going to get ripped down. Right. It's hard to express that.

[David Kaufman]

Well, people.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

So we say it's, it's, it's dangerous for Jews on the streets. Now that's in some way similar to the fact black guys can't walk without getting shot. It's not really true, but what's causing that there is something actually underneath which is real. So go ahead.

[David Kaufman]

But I think it's in the case of Jews right now it's even worse because I think we live in a culture right now that would say, if I were to come and say, as an African American male, I feel peril. I feel, I always feel a sense of it's very subtle, and it doesn't, you know, dominate me, but it's always there, this feeling like, because you are African American. Also because I'm a man, like, the cops could come and start effing with me, you know, and it's very likely that Nonsense. It has historically been very likely that they could do so with a sense of impunity, which would mean that nobody would face a consequence that. So that's what it means to be sort of a black man in America and bear this sort of stain of. Or stain or bad. Whatever you want to call it, or mark of. You know, you're marked, you know, by the authorities. I think what's even worse, or it's even harder right now for Jews is that, A, people don't believe them, you know, B, they're being told time and time again, well, you know, you're. Whatever you're feeling is lower on the totem pole because of everybody else, because you're white, because you're wealthy or. Because whatever. But. And most importantly, and this was something that would never happen with black people, is that. Or gay people or transgender people. Jews are being told, this is your fault. This. And this is the key thing. You are the architect of your own oppression. You are the architect of your own discrimination. The own peril that you face because of Israel, for instance, even though you could be a Jew who has no real connection to Israel, you just happen to be Jewish, and maybe because you're Jewish, you wear a Jewish star, but, you know, you maybe had never even been to Israel. You have no real connection, but because you are Jewish, this is your fault. Because you are, you know, you are Zionistic, Whatever. Whatever litany of phrases they want to use. This. And this notion that we are the architects of our own oppression, our own. Our own peril right now is in some ways being supported by the institutions that are supposed to be protecting us and those same institutions that worked so hard to defend other people, to defend other minority groups. I mean, when I was. I worked at Conde Nast for a while during the height of, like, the BLM period. I can't tell you the ungodly amount of resources that we had to devote in order to, like, elevate and tell and highlight black stories and ensure impartial, ensure fairness and hiring and blah, blah, blah. All this DI stuff. Endless. And. And, like, you look at these publications and, like, where are they now? Where are they now for Jews? Where are they now for us? In fact, these are the same publications that are putting out hit piece after hit piece after hit piece, literally manufacturing them from their inner colons to say it politely. And yet when it came to any other minority group, they were at the front lines. I mean, Vogue put Breonna Taylor on the COVID many years ago. It's like, you know, what about the women of October 7th? Like, like, like, why is there this double standard? And this is sort of like goes to talking about, you know, the timidity that I've seen amongst, amongst Jews or the silence sideline Jews who, you know, are just not, not standing up for their own community at a time, which.

[Host]

Yeah, well, you know, regarding the sideline Jews, some number of them of course agree with the narrative that Israel's committing a genocide and that if you're a Zionist, then you're enabling that. I don't know what that number is. You know, I've read 5% of Jews are anti. Just seems like more than that. Just in my own personal experience, just the comics I know, the Jewish comics, I know several of them are of that mind. So I don't know how Deborah Winger was. I recently saw her on YouTube speaking out against Israel.

[David Kaufman]

Not just against Israel, she was speaking out against her own upbringing, against her own family. I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's the, that's the, the maniacal nature of this whole pathology is like, could you, have we ever seen a black, a famous black actor going on TV speaking against their own black upbringing? Yet here we have Deborah Ringer basically deriding, you know, conventional American Jewish culture because she feels it supports Israel. I mean, and, and, and of course, you know, what does Hamas and all the jihadis love more than a Jew who's willing to like, you know, pimp their cause for them? I mean, talk about, talk about like billions of dollars in free marketing. And these folks are basically legitimizing what everybody else is doing. I mean, these are the worst kinds of people. But, you know, this is America and they're allowed their free speech and that's that. But, you know, why do we, why do we, why do we hear so loudly from the anti Zionistic Jews is because, you know, the, the, the, the chorus of people around them who want to kill us, you know, and which is really what it is. Like these people want to kill us. They're not, they're not fucking around here. Like they want us dead. They've done it, they broadcast it. They say they're going to do it again. And I think what someone like Deborah Winger doesn't really understand is they want her dead, too. She's not an exception just because she's.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Was.

[David Kaufman]

They Hamas, they're jihadis. They're. They're, They're. They're. They're surrogates and sycophants, you know, but.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You don't mean the, The. The run of the anti Semitic people in America.

[David Kaufman]

I like the Linda Sarsour people. I think the Ta Nehisi Coates people. I mean, Coates himself said on a podcast, you know, a week after or two weeks after my article came out, during the whole brouhaha with Tony, what's his name at cbs, he said, I'm not so sure if I had been there on October 7, that I wouldn't have, you know, broken down the fence. You know, he said that. Could you. Can you imagine a white. A white person saying, I can't. I can't be sure during a lynching. I wouldn't have, like, you know, you know, been there.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Like, I can imagine saying that.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah. But they survive. Would they still have a career? Would they still have an agent? They still have a publisher.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Far be it for me to defend Tanis. He calls, did you read Benny Morris's takedown of Tanez? He goes, I read part of it. I'm actually. I actually was responsible. You know, I'm the guy who sent Betty Morris the book and asked him to review it. And it's very thorough. But. But I thought what Ta Nehisi Coates was saying in that passage was that I don't agree with it at all, is that the life there is so psychologically damaging and, you know, so that I can't. I think that if I had been through that, I might have even lost myself and done something horrible. I don't think. I don't want to. I just. I don't think I will guarantee you if you gave Ta Nehisi Coates sodium pentothal.

[David Kaufman]

He does not even.

[Host]

Does that even work.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

He doesn't want to see American Jews dead. He does. I don't.

[David Kaufman]

I don't think that's too far. It's not that he doesn't want to see American Jews dead. I don't think that he. What I'm saying is that. Is that this. This ideology that he is speaking into, that he is echoing, that he is supporting through his reckless statements. They want to see us.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[David Kaufman]

Yes. And that had been killing us. Right. And the fact that he felt that he could say something like that, it just proves the egregiousness of a system that somehow Allows. He's allowed to say that because he is black, and he's allowed to say that against us because we are Jews. That paradigm, that racialized, hierarchical paradigm does not exist in America in any other circumstances. If it did, the people who participated in would lose any sense of cultural.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

So let me ask you this. You know, Brett Stevens said something like this. He talked about, you know, his name is not particularly Jewish. And he, and he, and he would.

[Guest/Commentator]

That's right.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And he would find himself very often and they wouldn't know that he was Jewish. And he'd hear what, what people were saying about Jews.

[David Kaufman]

Imagine me.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah, that's exactly. That's what I'm getting to. So tell us about that. Like, what is it, what is it like to be a fly on the wall when people don't know that you're Jewish, especially in the black community? What did you, what do you, what can you tell us?

[David Kaufman]

I mean, it's not so much in the, in the.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Blow the whistle.

[David Kaufman]

No, I mean, there is, there is no whistle to blow. I mean, my, my father's family was. You know, I actually have a very interesting story. Yeah. About, you know, I kind of say how I became Jewish because my mom was raised. My mom's the daughter of, you know, Eastern European immigrants, was raised in a fairly observant, if not Orthodox kosher home, speaking Yiddish. And, you know, somehow. And my father grew up in suburban Houston, near Galveston. You know, very middle class American.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Black. Yeah.

[David Kaufman]

From. From Texas.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You know, descended the slaves.

[David Kaufman]

Like Ada. We are Ada. I am as American as you can get. I'm the son of. My mom's from New York, a New York Jew. My dad's a Texan black guy. I'm from California. Like, can't get more American.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Okay.

[David Kaufman]

And my father grew up in, you know, very middle class, African black family. You know, my great grandmother was college educated. We're back in the shtetl. Like, I can't imagine my great grandmother knew how to read, you know, on my mom's side. And they somehow wound up in San Francisco in the 70s, 60s, 70s. And you can take it from there. And so. And what's interesting is that when we were. My father was not around, my mother raised us by herself. And she had sort of, you know, she's very Jewish. I mean, she is like, you know, the Jewish mom. She is like the archetypical Jewish mom, except for the fact that she has these two brown kids. But what's interesting, you know, is that she was not being. We were not being Raised particularly Jewish until we were like five or six. In fact, we even one year had a Christmas tree, which today is like, you know, anathema to me. I remember we put Legos as ornaments because, you know, Mama Kaufman had no idea what. How to trim a Christmas tree. So when we were like six or seven, we went to go spend. Even though we were not close to my father, we were very close to his family, our black family. Part of the reason was because my mother's Jewish family didn't want to talk to us. And my mom was like, these kids need a family.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

So she said, because you're black, obviously.

[David Kaufman]

Because you're black. So when she sent us to Texas to visit our father's family for like quite a month when we were. We were like six or seven. I often wonder what my mother.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

How did they meet your parents?

[Host]

They met through Summer of Love, man.

[David Kaufman]

Exactly. To make it. To paraphrase, they met through, like, you know, happenings. And they were. I mean, if you really want to know, they were introduced by. @. By Reverend Cecil Williams, who ran one of the most important progressive churches in San Francisco, which name. Whose name I forget at this moment. And it's terrible to say that, but he's a very important.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And they were married.

[David Kaufman]

They were not married. They were never together for a period of time. And then they were not. So anyway, my mom sent us to Texas to visit our father's family for like a month. I always wonder what she did during this time because she was still relatively young, but that's a different story. And my grandmother, who was Methodist and you know, her husband was Baptist, she was Methodist. So they were very typical black family, you know, very church going, blah, blah, blah. And she was horrified that we were not being raised Jew like something, you know, we were. Did. We were not being raised something. And she called my mother and she said, you know, I don't care what those children are. I don't care if those children are Hare Krishnas. I just don't want them being no heathens. You gotta do something. And we had been going to JCC swim lessons in San Francisco. And we. There was like one other mixed family that we knew. A black, Black Jewish family. And my mom was, you know, we became. We were. My mom's really friendly with that mom. And so she took us to their synagogue. And hence my black grandmother made me Jewish and the uber Jew Zionist beautiful. The uber Jew Zionist that I am today.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Now, maybe I spoke too flippantly about a lot of anti Semitism in the black Community. I mean, this is, you know, wisely.

[David Kaufman]

Not been my experience. Experience.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Well, that's, that's, that's, that's. Yeah, I. I kind of feel bad about saying it because, you know, it's so widely. Well, there's, there's. You see data like that from time to time. And, and we as exists and so we experience it through Farrakhan and, you know. But you would know, right? So tell us about that.

[David Kaufman]

I mean, my father, you know, when we would go visit my grandparents for Christmas, we'd bring along a menorah. Like, that's always been. Like, we've always. I've always felt much, in many ways, much more welcomed as a Jewish person amongst my father's family.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

That's your family. But, but you're hanging people who don't. Black people don't know that you're Jewish.

[David Kaufman]

I mean, it's, it's, it's not just black people. It's. I mean, my common experience is that I have.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Or white people who don't know.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah, I mean, we have, we have. I have my mom's last name. I have an extremely Jewish name. David Kaufman. Like, you know, you can't. In New York city. Must be 10 million of me. And so my, you know, my experience is just showing up places and people walking around saying, you know, david coffin. Do you have a coffin? I'm like, I'm right here.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You know, I'm sorry. There must be some mistake.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah, that's in my experience.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Experience.

[Guest/Commentator]

I just want to say, if I may for a moment, that that has not been my experience, that there is a lot of anti Semitism amongst black people. We've discussed.

[Host]

But they know you're Jewish, so they're, they're not going to express that.

[Guest/Commentator]

No, but I mean, I live in a world. I just spent a weekend with my best girlfriend from growing up and her five best girlfriends, everybody was black. I was the only white person and certainly the only Jew there. We spent three days together. And I just. That has just really never been my. Like, I don't hear that. It's, it's.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

We did live through Crown Heights in this.

[Guest/Commentator]

Okay, but that's like a pretty extreme.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

But. Yes, but, but, but I will say. I will say I've said this before. As much as the Crown Heights was absolutely an anti Semitic incident, I do understand that having a black community living right up against an Orthodox, Jewish or Hasidic community, a lot of the friction that will occur and then in anger look like racial hatred is, is maybe not actually that, yeah, I think it's really.

[David Kaufman]

We like to have this narrative of this has.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Are not easy to live.

[David Kaufman]

We like to have. Yeah. And also like, you know, I think Hasid are the bad, not the best example because Haseeeds are not really into anybody who's not Hasidic, let alone people. It's like, yeah, they don't want to talk to anybody. There are equal opportunity haters of everybody. Except I mean, Hasid don't even really like Jews who are not Hasidic.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You know, I have that I haven't.

[Host]

The labavic are more open. I think satmars.

[David Kaufman]

I mean, I live next to a chabad so I, they're. They're nice to me. But I mean, but chabads are really good for Yom Kippur when you're traveling.

[Guest/Commentator]

Yeah.

[David Kaufman]

Either pop in a pop in shul, they're like, you know, welcome.

[Guest/Commentator]

They'll take anyone.

[David Kaufman]

Anyone. But I think what it is is like, you know, the media loves a narrative of Jewish black schism. It does really well. And I wrote a piece a couple like you know, last year I wrote it for airmail saying that like, you know, the New York Times for instance, had like four or five, four or five pieces in the period of like a month detailing this. It's grand, like destabilization between, you know, Jewish Jews and blacks in the post October 7th. But when you really, you know, the New York Times is really. As an editor, I'm very attentive to headlines, subheads, captions, and then of course, what's actually in the article. And if you, you know, you read a lot of these articles about the New York Times and they have these headlines saying blacks and Jews now hate each other. But if you, you know, the data says, or you know, notable, notable pastors say, and when you really read it, like it doesn't bear out like some data says, or the pastors who are saying this are basically the black version of, of Jewish Voices for Peace. Like they're the most extreme black black pastors out there. I actually think that, you know, most American blacks are just not really thinking a lot about. About Jews, which is like fine for me.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Like, what about this? What about within certain communities, certain types of views that we would all consider over the line.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Even if they're not agreed with, they will not be a deal breaker. So Al Sharpton was guilty of saying very, very anti Semitic things. And then somebody died in the Freddy Fashion Mart, whatever it was. And we as Jew time said, why are they allowing this guy, like, we would never allow that.

[David Kaufman]

Well, that's what I'm talking about, the double standard.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah. So. So, so we, we would take that as like, they must hate Jews, because if they didn't. And what you're saying is. No, it's not that they don't hate you. It's just that, you know, they just ignore that in some way.

[David Kaufman]

Listen, I don't think. I don't. I don't think that, like, your average black person is walking around thinking hating of Jews. I think what you would say is that, you know, how could they follow.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

This guy if they didn't?

[David Kaufman]

Well, I think that what you would say. Well, you could say what could. The key word here is could. I don't speak for anybody, but. But myself.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[David Kaufman]

Is that, you know, black people still exist in a state of great economic deprivation in this country. And it's gotten worse. It's not gotten better. And so. And then we have this perception that's been put out by a lot by the DEI industry, a lot by, you know, the racial preferences movements that sort of makes that hierarchy hierarchicalizes or hierarchies, race, and at the. By sort of access, privilege, whatever they want to call it. And at the top of these hierarchies is always Jews. Right. So you have a community that exists in a real state of economic deprivation, which is very real. I mean, the, the, the. The hallmark of being a black person in this country is, you know, I don't want to say being poor. There are plenty, like, people who are not poor, but struggling, you know, and that's generally not the case for most Jewish people, although I'm not saying almost never the case. There are plenty of Jews who are not. Who could, you know, who could use a few who are not. Who are not, you know, wealthy, of course, you know, but I think. So you have this economic reality between the status of blacks today and the perceived status of Jews. And then you have this messaging that says this perceived status of Jews is because of all of these isms, whether they're white supremacy or racism or privilege. And so people, like, absorb those messages and they turn them into not just individualized experiences. Whereas some Jews might have more money than other people and some Jews don't. It becomes the trope of the community. And it exists at our expense. That's the key thing. They are profiting at our expense.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

That's the perception that could be.

[David Kaufman]

That is. That is the takeaway. And this idea, this, I think, is really important. There's this idea with Jews or unlike any other minority group, the Jews are profiting, doing well, succeeding at somebody else's expense, and hence they're expected to atone for it. And what's interesting about it is that. And just that thought makes me, like, want to vomit. It makes me so angry. Like, you know, can you, you know, why must Jews atone for their success? You know what I mean? Like, Indians are extremely successful in America. You know, nobody's asking them to atone. You know, certain African minor, African immigrant groups are successful in ways that others are not successful, but they're not being asked to return. And I actually was reading the DEI statement I stumbled upon. I'm not going to say who it is because I don't like to take people down. Not yet, but I'm getting there. There's an organization, a Jewish organization that deals with a lot of social justice issues. And I stumbled upon their website. I decided to look at it. I was curious, what are these groups doing right now in terms of October 7th antisemitism? Not only did their website say nothing about October 7th, nothing about Israel, nothing about anti Semitism, but they had the most elaborate DEI statement I'd ever seen. And in that DEI statement, they had language like, we acknowledge that Jews have benefited from white supremacy, from white privilege, and we acknowledge that they must. That they must do the work to correct that. And I was like, are you basically handing Sinwar a gun? Like, are we allowed to swear here?

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Kaufman]

Like, what the fuck? You know what I mean? This is the exact language that our enemies are using to annihilate us. Language of privilege, language of perceived white supremacy, language of that Jews have to do the work to fix this. It's all about blaming. And you guys are a Jewish organization doing it yourself. It's like, how does this happen?

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Now? Your biography must be fascinating here. You should write a memoir. What? What? How, how so, so you were a. A young, like Steve Martin. I was born a poor black child.

[David Kaufman]

You were born a, A brown kid in San Francisco.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

A brown kid to a. A Or observant.

[David Kaufman]

Well, she wasn't so observant at the.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Time, but yeah, A Jewish woman who had a child out of wedlock.

[David Kaufman]

Two kids.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

That was two kids. That's bad enough, even without them being black.

[David Kaufman]

I'm a twin. I have a twin sister.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Oh, it's no way I have twins.

[David Kaufman]

I have twin boys too. No way. And my ex husband's a twin.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And, and, and now that's amazing. And now you, you. You're somehow you find yourself you know, writing for New York Post, writing for Commentary magazine.

[David Kaufman]

I work at the York Post.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. How. What was your childhood like? How did you become successful? How did you overcome, as it were, the. The. The. The headwinds of being not only black, but single mother and all that stuff?

[David Kaufman]

I mean, I didn't really just gift.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

It at a young age.

[David Kaufman]

I mean, besides the fact that I'm exceptionally exceptional. No, I mean, number one, like, I didn't have a choice. You know, like, I think that's also part of, like, that's the, you know, you people look at me now and sort of. I went to a good college and I went to good grad school, and, you know, I live in a fancy zip code. But, you know, I knew very early on this is one of the, you know, the sort of the hallmarks of, I think, being black is that. And not having, you know, like most, like the majority of black people in America. I grew up in a home that was where there were not two parents, did not have a father. You know, my mom worked very hard. So what I think I will say is that she instilled in both of us, you know, an incredible work ethic. My mother's taken nothing from anybody ever. In fact, during the whole, like, welfare mothers, you know, rhetoric period, she was like, I should get some retroactive welfare. I never took anything from anybody. You know, my mother never has never taken anything from anybody. She has worked her entire life. So I think I've always had a very strong work ethic and. And I've had a very strong model of what it takes. But also, like, you know, nobody was coming to rescue me. I mean, this is what they talk about. I think I do talk about privilege, is that, you know, there is no family wealth. There is no plan B. There is no, like, nobody's coming to save me if I don't go. If I didn't go to work after college and start earning money, you know, I was going to, like, you know, my mom had some money, but basically, like, there was nobody coming. There's no. There's no. There's no dad who's going to show up and, like, write a check for me. So I didn't really have any, but.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

This is not a reason, because there's a thousand other people who were in your situation that didn't.

[David Kaufman]

I mean, they didn't work. Okay. Okay.

[Guest/Commentator]

He said he's exceptionally.

[David Kaufman]

No, I think also you're asking, like, how. How have I become? I mean, I feel like I'm, you know, it's not to sound like Michelle Obama, but I still feel like. I still feel like I'm becoming. Like, I don't feel like I've. I've really gotten anywhere that I should be yet I feel like I should. There should be a lot more, you know, and I. And I'm really still hungry for that more, you know, but I also think that.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Well, what. What did. If you. If you. Go ahead. Sorry. Sorry.

[David Kaufman]

One thing I think is really interesting in my. In my. I speak for myself is that. And I. I see this in Obama as well. Like, he was raised very similar to me, you know, raised on the fringes of the Pacific, mostly around white people, by a white mother with no black father. And one of the things that I saw identified in Obama, why he was so successful is because I think people like him and me exist in this extreme state of racial dysphoria. Because we have been raised mostly around white people. We don't walk into a room of white people and feel fundamentally different. And this is our innate spidey skill. Like so many, so many, understandably, the key word here is understandably. So many black people go into all white spaces. And if you're a successful black person, you're often amongst white people all the time because, you know, they control everything. But. But. And they feel different. They are different.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Right.

[David Kaufman]

You know, and I'll give you a perfect example. I was at the ADL conference a couple weeks ago where I spoke, and only after like 3 hours did I look around. I was like, wow, everybody here is white but me. That wasn't my first impression of being somewhere like this, where I think for a lot of people who are not white, that would be the first impression they walk in. Because I was raised around all white people. I have a white mother. I went to a white synagogue. I went to mostly white schools, or actually the schools I went to were mostly Asian and Latin because I grew up in San Francisco. But when I go into a predominantly white environment, which is every day at the New York Post, I don't feel particularly different from the other people there because that is my default visual, visual experience. And I think that's also something like with Obama, like, I'm sure he would never probably say it because the optics and the branding wouldn't be good for him. But I'm sure he feels exactly the same way, which was the reason why he resonated so strongly. Well, he knew how to speak to white people because he didn't see them as white. He just saw them as people When I see people, and not that I'm like, you know, racially post racial or racially blind. I'm very acutely aware of race, but I'm aware of it in a way that it doesn't define every element of my everyday experience that I think in ways that other people would for other people because of the way in which I was raised.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

So this is interesting stuff. So even though you're here to talk about Jewish, I hope you don't mind talking about this, because I find it because, you know, on Israel and stuff like that, there's a lot of people could talk about. But you actually have a very, very unique perspective here that I didn't.

[David Kaufman]

Well, it's also one of the reasons why I think I'm very Zionistic. It goes. Everything ties. Because I grew up my whole life feeling extremely different. Everywhere I go, I'm very different than people. Like, I'm not so into. Like, I don't belong to a synagogue here, because when I go to Jewish spaces, people always sort of look at me quizzically, like, what the you doing here? You know, and they'll say to me, like, are you. As I'm speaking, as I'm, you know, praying in Hebrew, they'll say to me, are you Jewish? And it's like, yeah. Whereas one of the things I. Like, one reason why I'm so. I believe I'm so Zionistic is that Israel is the only place in the whole world where I literally feel like everybody else. I get there and like, for me, for me, someone like me who spends. Who spent their entire life and still feels very much completely on the sidelines of most of most, you know, contexts. When I go to Israel, it's like the relief I feel, you know, of. It's the only place where I truly feel like I can actually be myself. Because all the things that people are constantly probing about me here all the time, relentlessly. And I'm not saying they're doing it maliciously or bad. It's just the way the culture is here. We live in a highly racialized culture. You cannot escape it. And for someone like me, it is oppressive. When I go to Israel, the moment I get there, I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm not like the lightest Jew in the. In the room there, but I'm certainly not the darkest Jew.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You see. You see black Jews all over and not just.

[David Kaufman]

Not just black Jews, you see, you know. You know, Jews from, you know, and.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Every shade in between.

[David Kaufman]

Exactly. Like, there's plenty of Jews. Like, I'm not the only. I'm not darkest Jew in the room there at all.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

But you see full on African, Ethiopian Jews, right? Regularly.

[David Kaufman]

Regularly. So my point is like, for me, like, I have this very strong, like, you know, when I saw October 7th, when I watched what was happening on October 7th, the horror of seeing that, and not to make it all about me, but there was this moment where I. Because it went on and on. And yeah, I was receiving, like, notifications and I, I received them in, in. In Hebrew as a way to, like, practice my Hebrew to be, like, nifty and cool. And I was like, you know, am I understanding this right? Like, this can't be real, you know, and then when this, when October 7th went on, it went on to October 8th. I mean, it took a long time to clear those motherfuckers out. Okay? Like, I had this moment where I was like, is Israel going to survive? There was a moment where I was like, you know, are they going to get to Tel Aviv? And, and, and not to make it all about me, but my initial response was, if there is no Israel, I will never know what it feels like ever again in the rest of my life to truly feel like myself. And that was an incredibly overwhelming experience. I will say that in defense of my children, I feel very much myself when I'm with my children. But besides that, you know, when I go to Israel now.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You adopted children or you have a surrogate?

[David Kaufman]

We had a surrogate, yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And the surrogate was Jewish?

[David Kaufman]

No, she was not Jewish. But it's interesting because according to Halacha, for the children of surrogates to be Jewish, the surrogate must be Jewish, not the egg donor.

[Guest/Commentator]

Oh, really?

[David Kaufman]

Because you must. It's all about visual verification of who is the mother.

[Guest/Commentator]

Really? That's insane.

[David Kaufman]

It's insane.

[Guest/Commentator]

I was going to ask you, and you'll forgive me if I'm being presumptuous, but I was going to say that I'm assuming that one of the things that probably enrages you more than anything is when people call Israel a white colonizer, a country of white colonizer, when.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Actually it should be black colonizers too.

[David Kaufman]

Well, I like to. But I. Whenever I'm in Israel, I like to put on my Instagram phrase, like, here with a fellow white colonizer who are like, you know, so. Yeah, I mean, obviously. I mean, I don't like conversations in general where we use, like, racialized terms for Jews. I don't like the idea of, like, white Jews or black Jews or Jews of color. I Think we're all world Jews.

[Guest/Commentator]

No, but it's so crazy that these people who seem to know so much about something that 18 months ago, they knew nothing about Jews or white colonizers. Yeah. And then the, you know, all of the people from all over North Africa and.

[David Kaufman]

Right. But I would even. I would even go further than that. I would even say, like, when I hear people using that kind of language, I don't. I don't engage with it. My response to you is, why are you. What is your motivation here? Like, what is your motivation for racializing Jews, Israelis, people who have. That's nothing necessarily really, in connection to our notion of race in America? Like, why are you asking this. This. What is your goal here? Because if you really ultimately, when you, like, peel back the layers of their goal, it's. It's to. It's to justify the actions of Hamas on October 7. This is where all this is always. Any talk of Jews and race is always basically a pathway to legitimizing our extermination, which is why I don't like these conversations for me, and this is something I felt, you know, again, having spent so much time in Israel, when I. When I see Jews, it's like, yes, my mother's white. I mean, I'm not living in some fantasy where, like, my mom is of color. She is a white woman, you know, and because. And Jewy and very Jewish, you know, I mean, she's feel for you. She's, like, prepping those matzo balls already.

[Guest/Commentator]

She's, like, full on, you know, what's her name?

[David Kaufman]

Her name is. Or her name is Lily. But her. Her name would be Leia. But, you know, so I'm not living in. And I'm not living in some fantasy world where, like, you know, white people don't. Don't experience or enjoy more quote, unquote privilege than people who are not. Like, that exists all over the world. The problem is that, you know, this paradigm is uniquely weaponized against Jews in a way that it's not weaponized against people. All of these conversations that we would have where we would have intellectual debate, intellectual discourse, you know, the presumption of both sides, all that suddenly is erased, and it's only foisted upon Jews. And then when you really peel back the onion, you peel back the layers, it's like, well, then, you know, that's why Hamas hates you and wants to kill you.

[Guest/Commentator]

They're all, right, right, right, right, right.

[David Kaufman]

Everything is a tool for Hamas apologists to justify. October 7th and to elevate people like Ta Nehisi Coates who can go on, you know, podcasts and say things like, I can understand why I can't be sure I wouldn't have, like, maraud on October 7th as well. This is where it's all going. So when I hear those conversations, I end them.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

We need to wrap it up. I'm very happy to meet you. Where do you live? You live around here?

[David Kaufman]

I live on Upper east side.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I would just say that, you know, in some way, we spent so much time in the last year and five months reacting to the anti Jewish, anti Israel explosion. We really still to this day have done a very bad job of making the case for Israel, such that even the average Jewish person I know is no better informed on the, you know, five or six bullet points that you need to be equipped with to combat this myth of Israel being the bad guy and Israel being the colonists and all of it. And this is the real problem. I don't know. I don't know how we do that. I was complaining about this before October 7th, as Pariel knows that. I was saying that, you know, Jewish kids don't even know how it is that the territories became occupied. They. They think that Israel went into the territory. They don't know that Israel was attacked. They don't know that Israel tried to make peace. They don't know that Arafat walked out. They don't know that. I mean, Abbas walked out.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And, you know, those things.

[David Kaufman]

It's a lot to know.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

No, it's not a lot.

[David Kaufman]

Well, it's. It's a lot in a sense that, like, there is. You need to know all this stuff to have any sort of reasonable conversation. And again, like, it's not demanded of any other convers.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Speak to any nitwit. They know, yes, the U. N. Partition and gave Israel most of late, like, they will recite, you know, 20 facts about the revisionist facts about Israel. They'll cite to the. The anti Semites know all about the Talmud and the arcane. Like, they. They have a whole factual base that they've downloaded. And we Jews, we. We just want to. Oh, you're anti Semites, you want all this dead? And, and this needs to be said. But what we haven't done is educated ourselves and the general public on our very simple case.

[David Kaufman]

Well, what I will say, my simple sort of statement is, you know, is that, you know, I had this awakening this summer when I was in Tel Aviv is that, you know, history is very, very. There's very few instances Examples of Jews being able to defend other Jews. This is an ahistorical condition in the world today. And this, if you want to ask me why, why so much. They can't stand this. They can't stand that we as Jews are able to defend ourselves. And the way I look at it, that we have an army, we have a nation, we have soldiers. I mean when I'm in Israel, I have to remember that I exist in that country as a privilege because 18 year old boys are willing to die, to die, and they do die every single day. That there are mothers at home and fathers at home who have multiple sons in Gaza at this time. And somehow I can barely deal when my kid has like a 100 degree fever. I can barely contain myself. So what I'm saying is that Jews defending Jews is a historical, unprecedented condition, experience, moment in this history. Jews defending Jews is a revolutionary act and we as Jews need to be revolutionaries today. That's what I said.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

All right, sir, well I'm, I'm very happy to meet you and maybe you'll come on the show again and maybe.

[David Kaufman]

I'll be on time next time. Forgive me.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Have you ever. Well, you know what they say about Jews. Have you. They're always late. Have you been to the, to the Comedy Cellar?

[David Kaufman]

A long time ago.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You need to start coming down again.

[David Kaufman]

I need some like, some, some levity in my life because like it's, it's a tough time out there now.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

My kids, my wife's Puerto Rican and Indian.

[David Kaufman]

Okay. Indian from like, like India. Indian from like India.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

From India, but actually, but via Trinidad.

[Guest/Commentator]

But you know, but, but, but Puerto Rican via Brooklyn.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Puerto Rican via Brooklyn and, but, but definitely Indian, you know, from the subcontinent.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

100 and I mean 100 over 50.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And, but my kids are not, they don't, they're not very dark. Right. One, one of my kids looks like he could be from Guatemala. But the other ones I think present as, you know, like, I mean, swarthy as an Italian or something.

[Guest/Commentator]

Yeah, I mean they're all pretty ambiguous. Like.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah, but so, but, but always in the back of my mind as I'm hearing your experience, I'm imagining, you know, what's going on in, in my kids mind. But they're not ever going to quite face the fish out of water type reaction that, that you have gotten at certain times.

[David Kaufman]

But I also feel like very lucky to be me, you know, I feel like there's like power in being brown, you know, Like I, I'm lucky that wherever I go, in most of the world, I kind of like. It's only in the West. I don't look like other people. In most of the world, I kind of look like the rest of the people. And I love that. I love going to all these places. The irony is that in much of the world, because of the color of my skin, I'm immediately treated like everybody else. You know, I'm. I'm perceived, even though they're like, oh, he's kind of American. He's not like us. But there's this. I can tell they kind of view me as one of them. And I love that feeling. You have this immediate in. Like you're an insider around the whole world.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

It's a tremendous biography to be commenting on world events, both on domestic racial situations, on Jewish stuff. I mean, you have credibility of being able to see each of these issues from an organic point of view.

[David Kaufman]

You're very kind. Thank you.

[Guest/Commentator]

Well, there's a.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And nobody could say, like, who are you to comment on black. Who are you to comment.

[David Kaufman]

Well, that's.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Who are you to comment on white people?

[David Kaufman]

And that's why I write so much about. What I write is because nobody else will. People are, too. I kind of don't give a fuck. You know, people are afraid. And I feel. I don't write this stuff. Who will.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Who are you to comment on gay half black Jews?

[Guest/Commentator]

Well, you don't. You know, there's a very famous interview with James Baldwin and Dick Cavett.

[David Kaufman]

He's smoking the whole time.

[Guest/Commentator]

Yeah. And, I mean, I grew up.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Great writer. Go ahead, go ahead.

[Guest/Commentator]

Adoring James Baldwin. I was recently. Although I was recently a little bit disappointed to find out that he was not quite a Zionist.

[David Kaufman]

Not quite.

[Guest/Commentator]

But Cavett asked Baldwin, you know, God, you know, must be so hard to be, like, gay and black. And Baldwin, like, takes a drag of his cigarette. He goes, are you kidding? I hit the jackpot.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Did he say gay at that time?

[David Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Guest/Commentator]

Oh, I did say gay.

[David Kaufman]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I didn't know that.

[Guest/Commentator]

Or maybe he said homosexual.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

But it was. He was out of. He was out.

[Guest/Commentator]

I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. We can maybe cut that clip. And it's. It's a really powerful moment. But, yeah, you are. You're a unicorn. It's.

[David Kaufman]

I'm a unicorn. But I mean, it's. It's. Unicorns can.

[Guest/Commentator]

Yeah.

[David Kaufman]

Fly.

[Guest/Commentator]

Absolutely. It's. It's one of our Jewish miracles, maybe.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

All right, David, it worked out that you're a little late because it allowed me time to rant.

[David Kaufman]

Okay, good.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

About other stuff which so, so don't feel bad.

[David Kaufman]

My real challenge, you weren't late.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You, you didn't know you were coming today.

[David Kaufman]

My real challenge in life is I'm clearly mildly brain dead. But like, luckily I pulled together quickly. I pulled together.

[Guest/Commentator]

You pulled it together quickly. I'm just looking forward to next episode showing you the text chain of saying that this was actually not my fault.

[David Kaufman]

It's. No, but we don't, we don't need to live in a space of fault. We need to live in a space of like, of like moving forward and correction and doing better.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

No, I feel better about myself when I can put down the people. All right, sir, thank you very much. Email to podcastcomedy seller.com podcast@comedy seller.com and by the way, seller is not with an S. It's a seller like a basement with a C. Okay, good night, everybody.

[David Kaufman]

Good night.