Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Jeffrey Epstein But Were Afraid to Ask - Michael Tracey

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Jeffrey Epstein But Were Afraid to Ask"

Podcast: The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table
Host(s): Noam Dworman, Periel (Producer)
Guest: Michael Tracey (Journalist)
Date: September 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the Jeffrey Epstein saga with journalist Michael Tracey, challenging the mountains of rumors, conspiracy theories, and online mythology that have surrounded the case for years. The conversation is direct, darkly funny, and occasionally contentious as the hosts and Tracey systematically separate fact from folklore, including Epstein’s crimes, his network of associates, the absence (or not) of sexual blackmail or intelligence ties, and the role of prominent conspiracy theorists. Along the way, they critique pop-culture “Epsteinologists,” discuss the weaponization of the story by anti-Israel figures, and interrogate the holes in the public’s collective understanding.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Current Shock: Political Violence and Its Impact

(00:39 – 04:49)

• Brief discussion of the tragic shooting and death of Charlie Kirk, reflecting on rising political violence.
• Michael Tracey: “I worry how this could potentially be used to maybe disincentivize public political gatherings, which I think are really necessary in a thriving civic culture...” (02:08)
• Noam draws an analogy to global warming and media sensationalism: “When you have an act of violence at a time when the climate is hot, it’s very easy to draw the conclusion that the hot climate led to the violence.” (03:12)
• Discussion transitions into personal experience with threats and the impact of online vitriol.

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2. Cutting Through the Epstein Mythology

What’s Actually True About Epstein?

(07:36 – 17:46)

• Tracey claims “90% of what people think they confidently believe about the whole Epstein story is more or less bs.” (08:24)
• The Palm Beach phase (approx. 2002–2005) is identified as the period where the "core of the truth" lies: Epstein did have teenage girls brought to his house for massages, some of whom were underage.
  • Youngest involved directly: 14, though charges were muddled and murky in her case.
  • Epstein ultimately pleaded guilty to soliciting prostitution from a minor (17, nearly 18) and an adult—serving 13 months via a controversial non-prosecution agreement.
  • “We know that he pleaded guilty to procuring person under 18 for prostitution in Florida... We know that to be the case.” (15:35)
• Extensive discussion about legal technicalities, age of consent, and the spectrum of alleged victims.

Memorable Exchange:
Periel: “Did he engage in erotic massages with multiple underage women as far as you understand?”
Tracey: “I would say yes... he often typically did not have full-blown intercourse, but he did in this instance.” (15:53 – 16:14)

Multi-Victim Hysteria and the Shape of the Network

• Explains how the “30 or 50 victims” number stems partly from overbroad definitions and notification requirements under the Crime Victims Rights Act, not all of whom are credible accusers.
• Not all those labeled as “victims" identify as such; many accusations emerge from recruitment by peers.

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3. The Network: Associates, Allegations, and Money

Cameras, Blackmail, and the Absence of Evidence

(18:26 – 23:47)

• The infamous theory that Epstein recorded prominent figures for blackmail is heavily scrutinized.
• Tracey: “The claims that he had every room wired... seem to primarily originate with probably two of the alleged victims who are just out of their mind batshit.” (18:56)
  • Maria Farmer (26 at the time of “victimization”) and Sarah Ransom (early attempts to sell “sex tapes” to the press, later admitted she made it up).
• While some surveillance cameras existed, no systematic evidence supports the blackmail narrative.

Why Did Rich People Associate and Do Business with Epstein?

(26:03 – 36:39)

• Discussion of Leon Black paying Epstein $100+ million, and similar arrangements with Wexner.
• Epstein’s financial savvy, especially in tax avoidance for the super-rich, is offered as a plausible (if disturbing) but non-criminal explanation.
• Michael Tracey: “A lot of people who are invested in the fantastical narratives... point to Epstein’s wealth as if there’s no information about it whatsoever. That’s just not true.” (32:44)

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4. The Conspiracies: From the CIA to Mossad and Anti-Semitic Obsessions

Epstein as Intelligence Asset?

(40:16 – 53:34)

• Popular online theories claim Epstein was a CIA or Mossad “honeypot.”
• Tracey methodically walks through the genesis of these rumors:
  • Ghislaine Maxwell’s father’s history with Israel/military intelligence is cited as the entire foundation of the Mossad theory.
  • The “CIA” meme is largely built on unsourced, multiply-hearsay reporting by Vicky Ward; Acosta himself denied ever being briefed or aware Epstein was “intelligence.”
  • Office of Professional Responsibility and DOJ reports back up this denial.
• “People will make a logical leap that because Robert Maxwell was at least Mossad-adjacent, his youngest daughter must have been... [Mossad]. It’s possible, but you need to have some evidence, and there is really none.” (45:26)

How Anti-Israel Narratives Leech Into Epstein Lore

(55:03 – 61:07)

• Extended critique of far-right and anti-Semitic podcasters (Ryan Dawson, “Martyrmaid”) for drawing anti-Jewish/anti-Israel narratives into the Epstein discourse.
• Played clips highlight Ryan Dawson’s Holocaust denial, anti-Semitic tropes, and his endorsement by Daryl Cooper—an example of the story being co-opted for bigotry.
• Tracey: “My argument has been that this whole obsession with Epstein and sexual blackmail as the prism through which we need to... view the US relationship with Israel is a total distraction.” (59:32)
• Noam: “What might be an anti-Israel position similar to yours and now similar—now it’s gotten dirtied.... How are you going to trust these people when they can't even break from Nazis, right?” (60:32)

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5. The Victims, “Survivors,” and Political Spectacle

Questioning the Major Accusers and the ‘Survivors’ Movement

(61:13 – 74:35)

• Tracey describes confrontations at the Ro Khanna/Thomas Massie-led Capitol press conference, where he was ejected for questioning the credibility of “survivor” hero Virginia Roberts Giuffre—who, after a decade, admitted her allegations against Alan Dershowitz were false.
• “There’s hardly been anybody ever on earth who’s been more of a chronic... fabricator.” (72:53)
• Emphasizes a recurring pattern where many “victims” were actually adults, the use of the word "survivor" as a broad, perhaps misleading umbrella, and the unwillingness of media to vet or question claims in the public narrative.

The Political Instrumentalization

• Critiques “Epstein-skeptic” politicians like Thomas Massie and Marjorie Taylor Greene; discusses MAGA/Right’s surprising anti-Israel pivot using the Epstein story.
• “I think he’s [Massie] beclowning himself totally on the Epstein stuff. Like he just says stuff that’s wildly... exaggerated.” (70:53)

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6. Did Epstein Kill Himself? (The Death & Conspiracy Section)

(75:35 – 79:42)

• Michael Tracey is less certain here: “My confidence interval is lower. And it doesn’t have to be a Mossad conspiracy. It simply could have been that Epstein was... the most notorious pedophile in American history. What happens to pedophiles when they're in prison? They get their ass kicked or killed.” (76:53)
• Noam pushes back: “In my opinion, you’re doing now exactly what you’re faulting others for... you’re creating a plausible narrative... without evidence.” (78:03)
• They discuss the practicalities of a jailhouse murder versus suicide; agree on the lack of direct evidence for murder—but Tracey remains open.

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7. Meta-Critique: On Conspiracy Peddlers Like Whitney Webb

(80:53 – 85:59)

• Extended takedown of “Epsteinologists” like Whitney Webb whose research is described by Tracey as “fabulist,” lacking in rigor, and prone to unsubstantiated dot-connecting.
• “She just does this spurious dot-connecting thing where she’s like a motor-mouth... she makes up some of those facts.” (83:38)
• Noam: “This is unfortunate the way a lot of people operate. This is the way the people who claim that Russiagate was real were operating. … It’s not about whether these things can or can’t be true. It’s that they’ll take some quote from somewhere... They will keep from us on purpose...” (84:38 – 85:23)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Michael Tracey (08:24): “My contention now is that approximately 90% of what people think they confidently believe about the whole Epstein story is more or less BS.”
• Noam (03:12): “When you have an act of violence at a time when the climate is hot, it’s very easy to draw the conclusion that the hot climate led to the violence.”
• Tracey (32:44): “A lot of people who are invested in the fantastical narratives here... point to Epstein’s wealth as if there’s no information about it whatsoever. That’s just not true.”
• Tracey (45:26) [on Mossad link]: “It’s possible, but you need to have some evidence, and there is really none.”
• Tracey (59:32): “My argument has been that this whole obsession with Epstein and sexual blackmail as the prism through which we all need to somehow view the US relationship with Israel is a total distraction.”
• Tracey (72:53): “There’s hardly been anybody ever on earth who’s been more of a chronic... fabricator.”
• Tracey (83:38) [on Whitney Webb]: “She just does this spurious dot-connecting thing where she’s like a motor mouth... and she makes up some of those facts.”

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:39 – 04:49: Discussion of Charlie Kirk shooting and political violence.
• 07:36 – 17:46: What is definitely true about Epstein’s crimes and legal history.
• 18:26 – 23:47: Dissection of the blackmail/camera theory.
• 26:03 – 36:39: Why the rich did business with Epstein; the roots of his wealth.
• 40:16 – 53:34: Debunking CIA/Mossad/intelligence asset rumors.
• 55:03 – 61:07: The anti-Israel turn in Epstein conspiracy land.
• 61:13 – 74:35: The Capitol press conference, survivor/accuser credibility, and censorship.
• 75:35 – 79:42: Did Epstein kill himself? Suicide/murder debate.
• 80:53 – 85:59: Whitney Webb, “researchers,” and narrative misconduct.

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Tone & Language

Throughout, the podcast alternates between direct, skeptical journalism (Tracey), exasperated real-talk (Noam), and bursts of producerly direction and comic sarcasm (Periel). The tone is unvarnished, trenchant, and frequently laced with dark humor or meta-commentary on both conspiracy culture and the ills of partisan media.

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Summary Takeaways

• Most “Epstein facts” circulating online are either exaggerated, misrepresented, or outright fabricated—with only a core of criminal behavior grounded in legal reality.
• The infamous blackmail theory is remarkably under-evidenced, largely sourced to non-credible “victims” and never substantiated by law enforcement or serious reporting.
• Epstein’s money-making schemes, while shadowy, are explainable through a mix of tax avoidance wizardry and high-society con artistry.
• Right-wing/anti-Israel internet crusaders have appropriated the Epstein saga to attack Jews, Israel, and American political figures with thinly sourced, bigoted, or outright false claims.
• Even “real” investigative journalists and political leaders (Massie, Khanna) appear caught in the undertow of rumor, online pressure, and self-serving narratives.
• Conspiracies about intelligence involvement are built on hearsay, sometimes quadruple-hearsay; the DOJ has formally debunked the “CIA/Mossad” theory.
• The story’s staying power is due as much to what can't be proven as what can—encouraging endless speculation.
• Tracey reserves some doubt only for Epstein’s death: unlike the rest, the murder theory remains plausible to him, if still unproven.
• A meta-warning emerges: be wary of anyone who “knows for sure” what happened—especially if their claims echo historical prejudice or lack clear evidence.

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Closing Joke:
Tracey: “I wish I was Jewish because my IQ would be a few points higher at least.” (87:07)

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For listeners wanting a rigorous, skeptical take on Epstein—without the conspiracy haze—this episode is a lively, thorough, and frequently biting corrective.

Transcript

[Periel]

Mom on the air. I gotta go. Bye.

[Michael Tracy]

You have a coaster right there. Oh. Welcome to Live from the Table, the official. I'm here with Noam Dwarman, the owner of the Comedy Cellar. Dan Natterman is in Vegas this week and I'm Periel, the producer of the show. We are here with Michael Tracy who is a journalist. You can visit his website at any.

[Periel]

Mtracy.Net and that is T R A C E Y.

[Michael Tracy]

Correct. Thank you for emphasizing that. Because you know what? There's a prominent Jewish American surname, Tracy without an E. I happen to be Irish. I wish I were Jewish because if I didn't have the Tracy without an E, then it wouldn't be misspelled so often. Well, it's also hard to find because it's not the most uncommon name. Right. So people. And as somebody who looks for people to reach out to as part of my job on the show, I, I sometimes email the wrong person. Yeah, I went years being regularly confused with a guy called Mark Tracy. Right. You know who that is? He's like a, you know, a journalist guy. I don't know, I just, I, I remember I met a guy, I was talking to some other guy in media. He, he said, I thought for like seven years that you were Mark. That's so funny. Anyway, it's okay. I've done it before with big guests and Gnome of course becomes like irate with me. But then we had somebody on here who was like a really big guest and he was like, that has happen me many times and I felt very vindicated.

[Periel]

If, if your last name was Tracy, the Jewish one, we'd be calling you a self hating Jew instead of an anti Semite.

[Michael Tracy]

So I know I'd be honored.

[Periel]

All right, let's, let's so everything you ever. Should we say something? We, we just found out that Charlie Kirk was shot and, and we believe has died.

[Michael Tracy]

Trump announced that he's dead, so. So did Lu I Ahmed.

[Periel]

I wish I hadn't been over that. A source said other than Donald Trump at the moment, but let's just presume that it's true. I don't know if you have any off the top of your head, comments on. Yeah, what's happening, what's becoming of America.

[Michael Tracy]

I mean it's a, it's a nightmare. Who knows what the recriminations would be. You know, I politically disagreed and like very much vehemently objected to Charlie Kirk. But you know, this is just beyond the pale. So it's just terrible. I mean, what else can one Say really? Yeah, AP News.

[Periel]

Oh, ap. Okay. Yeah, I agree. It's, you know, I made the analogy a couple weeks ago that especially because.

[Michael Tracy]

He was at a political function, you know, he was in the middle of addressing a crowd on political topics and then he's just shot out of the blue in the neck. You know, it really kind of a vicious range, it seemed. We don't even know if the suspect has been apprehended. So it's just bad. And I think I, I worry how this could potentially be used to maybe disincentivize public political gatherings, which I think are really necessary in a thriving civic culture. And if now there's seem to be this ever present threat lurking and people don't want to even take the risk, that's, that's bad on an entirely different level.

[Periel]

Well, you know, we're going to get to Epstein, but since you, since you said that, I mean my, my first comment was going to be that, as I said, just like with global warming, when you, when you know you have a macro trend, the temptation is to say that every hurricane is because of global warming. But of course that's not true because there's always been huge weather events and when you have an act of violence at a time when the climate is hot, it's very easy to draw the conclusion that the hot climate led to the violence. We don't ever really know that in any particular instance, but it sure does feel like it. Right?

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah. You know, I do think that there's always a temptation and people are always going to rush to declare that there's something unique to this political moment or climate that has a causal relationship to why this happened or, you know, to when Trump was shot. And then when people looked into the Trump would be assassin, they couldn't, nobody could even decipher what that guy's political motive was, if he had any. It seemed like he also googled Biden potentially to assassinate if he had been in proximity to him in Pennsylvania. So I think people should really not rush to conclusions. And also remember in the 1970s, Gerald Ford got shot in this twice in the span of like a month.

[Periel]

Right.

[Michael Tracy]

And did it have something to do with the political climate? Sure, but that's always like a very vague thing to really nail down with any tangibility. So I know I'm always a little bit reluctant to especially assign blame to anyone and especially barring any information which as we're talking now, has not been forthcoming about who the suspect was or what have you.

[Periel]

So, and I worry about it for myself sometimes when I'm daydreaming because I get some very, very nasty male sometimes calling me a Nazi and a this and that.

[Michael Tracy]

I've gotten a ton, you know, ironically, just this morning, every now and then, you know, I get death threats a lot. But every now and then there's like, they're so goofy that I'll just post them just to sort of, you know, ridicule them or whatever. And I post it. I've gotten much more lately. But I put, I posted one just like maybe an hour or two before this, this news even came out. And yeah, sometimes they can be funny. And like 99.9% of the time, I'm not inclined to take them that seriously. They're just like online chatter. But at the same time, you know, it's not pleasant to be inundated with people who are calling for your murder.

[Periel]

You just never know. All right. Everything you ever wanted to know about Jeffrey Epstein, but we're afraid to ask, we have with us.

[Michael Tracy]

Fear not.

[Periel]

I would say, dare I say, the world's leading Jeffrey Epstein expert at the moment. I don't believe there's anybody more well versed in the minutiae, the gory, enticing details of the Jeffrey Epstein story then our guest, Michael Tracy.

[Michael Tracy]

Not a title I ever consciously sought, no, but I suppose a duty that I feel obliged to.

[Periel]

So now I want to make this chock full of information for our listeners. This is a story which I have never delved deeply into because my gut was always that I'm sure he did something awful, but the entire edifice of conspiracy theories around it I just decided wasn't true, because these things to me are never true. The analogy I always give is that Benjamin Netanyahu has like four people alone with him in the, in the war room of the Israeli government, and he's deciding life and death, survival or not survival decisions for the state of Israel. And 36 hours later, it leaks out to the press. He can't keep it a secret, but somehow, dozens or hundreds of people who would have to know bits and pieces of this Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy. The Mossad, the CIA, all this.

[Michael Tracy]

There's not even one. Yeah, it's a million different theories and.

[Periel]

Not a single person comes forward with any information. I just call bullshit on that. But however, let's just start this way. First, tell us what is true about the. Let's divide into three categories. What we know is true, what we don't know is true. But, you know, it does seem a little suspicious that he Gave all this money to for tax advice, things like that. Things which. Which a reasonable person might think there's smoke there that might actually be a fire, and what is just unfounded nonsense, conspiratorial gibberish. So let's start with what is true about the Jeffrey Epstein story.

[Michael Tracy]

So my elevator pitch, because, as you might imagine, I'm constantly peppered with questions about this now. And, hey, I bring it on myself, so I'm not gonna complain. But often one of the first questions I'm asked is some variation of this, like, okay, so what then? Did he do? Or give me your master theory. I'm not really that interested in proffering, like, a huge master theory. I feel like that's almost what leads to the proliferation of a lot of these unfounded theories. Like, people think they can just declare authoritatively, here's what happened, Right? And with very complex events and phenomena, which the Epstein thing has most certainly become. I'm wary of people who think that they're in a position to just reduce it to a couple of pithy.

[Periel]

What was. What was he convicted of?

[Michael Tracy]

Sure, sure, sure. I'll get.

[Periel]

What did he plead down from that? We think he.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So the way I've been sort of encapsulating it is, my contention now is that approximately 90% of what people think they confidently believe about the whole Epstein story is more or less bs. So either wildly exaggerated, distorted, in some way corrupted by confirmation bias, or just in some cases, outright fictitious. And that's compounded by a huge number of factors whether we should get into, including the journalistic malfeasance around this story, which has been a huge aspect of what's true. I got you. So 90% is basically BS, but there's 10% that is, I would say, roughly true. And that relates primarily to a period in the early 2000s. So roughly 2002 to 2005. And it has to do with what I've taken to calling the Palm beach phase of the Epstein saga. So he had this estate or house in Palm beach, and there was a period when he had teenage girls of roughly the same age. Some were at or above the legal age of consent In Florida, which is 18.

[Periel]

As young as.

[Michael Tracy]

I'll get to it. Okay, so Florida happens to have, like, one of the highest ages of consent in the entire world. Now, I've been joking. I'm not ordinarily a huge age of consent guy in that I'm not, like, deeply studying the intricacies of age of consent laws. Just as like out of personal interest. But unfortunately it is like a relevant legal factor here that you have to like be apprised of.

[Periel]

I used to know them all, but.

[Michael Tracy]

I mean it is interesting if like, if this happened, if this happened in Palm Beach, Georgia, so one state north rather than Palm Beach, Florida, it'd be much different legally. Anyway. So he had a constant parade in this period of teenage girls who in many cases were recruiting one another to come to the house and give a massage of varying degrees of sexualization.

[Periel]

What's the youngest age that we.

[Michael Tracy]

So this whole thing was kicked off with a Palm beach police investigation that was prompted by an incident involving a 14 year old.

[Periel]

Okay.

[Michael Tracy]

So sometimes you'll see it reported that the 14 year old was like so shaken by her experience that she ran to her mother and then the mother called the police. That's not what happened. What happened was this 14 year old was recruited by another 14 year old who actually. And the one who recruited her was actually one of the people at. I'm almost positive again sometimes, like there's so much information here I sometimes need to double check. But I'm almost positive that the person who recruited that 14 year old was one of the so called survivors at this Epstein press conference last week in Washington D.C. that I attended. And we should get into that if you're interested.

[Periel]

As a spectator. You attended.

[Michael Tracy]

Well, as an interloper or a trespasser, even though I was literally invited by the organizer, Ro Khanna. But anyway, we'll get into it. So the 14 year old ends up being brought to Epstein's house by another girl who's slightly older, who seemingly advises this girl to either not tell Epstein her age or lie about the age. And she gives conflicting stories. And it's not even clear if she, this particular 14 year old, engaged any real sexual acts. It did seem like she probably stripped down to her underwear and maybe participated in a massage with another girl, kind of leading the massage. But in terms of like an overt sex act, not clear if it even happened because Epstein was never charged with anything in relation to this girl because there was conflicting evidence.

[Periel]

I'm sorry because I.

[Michael Tracy]

Sure.

[Periel]

I've seen a lot of interviews and time goes fast and I want to make it, like I said, chock full of information. So yes, if you could just tell me and then. And then explanation like he definitely molested or whatever you want to call it. 10 women, 20 women, no women.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah. Okay. So here's what we know for certain. Insofar as we can know anything by virtue of his guilty plea that he did enter in Florida. Right. So there was this Palm beach investigation that started in 2005. He was then indicted by a Palm beach grand jury in 2006. And then there was a federal intercession into what had at that point been a local state level prosecution that was overseen by Alex Acosta, who is part of the law now, but he was the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of District of Florida. His office interceded in that local Palm beach case because the local police in Palm beach, particularly this detective called Joe Ricare, was disenchanted with how the local Palm beach district attorney was handling the case. Because when Epstein was indicted on a state level in 06, July of 06, he was indicted for essentially a prostitution charge that related to adults primarily. And so the local police were upset about that and they wanted the feds to intercede, which they did. And then there was this whole convoluted process involving the introduction of a non prosecution agreement, meaning non prosecution for federal charges. And pursuant to that non prosecution agreement.

[Periel]

Michael, I got you.

[Michael Tracy]

What did he do? I'm getting to it.

[Periel]

Say it first and then no, but.

[Michael Tracy]

You need a little bit of context. Right. So then pursuant to the non prosecution agreement, Epstein was compelled to plead guilty to two state level charges in Florida. One of them was felony solicitation of prostitution, which relates to adults. And a second one that was added at the behest of the feds was procuring a person under 18 for prostitution. Right. So then that almost certainly related because, and I say almost certainly because if you go look at the transcripts and such names are redacted, so you have to like cross check things and draw inferences. It's very annoying. I wish they would unredact every record, but they keep a lot redacted to supposedly protect the privacy of victims, which I think is no longer tenable given the outsized political and legal significance of this case. But anyway, that almost certainly related to a 17 year old who testified to the grand jury in Florida, gave an interview to the police and she says this 17 year old, that she had consensual intercourse, which was unusual for Epstein based on what I can gather in that he often typically did not have full blown intercourse, but he did in this instance. And it was with a 17 year old who said that this literally happened the day before her 18th birthday. And she was asked by the police detective, was this consensual? She says yes. Now, I'm not opining on whether that's correct. I think it's definitely inadvisable. I think Jeffrey Epstein was morally culpable for even getting into this whole situation where there was, you know, girls of uncertain ages or she's. He's not checking diligently whether they're 18 or even if they lied. It doesn't particularly matter for a man in his 50s who doesn't have to be doing this. I mean, it did suggest a pathology on his part. He was pathologically obsessed with constantly getting massages, which is bizarre. But anyway, we know that he pleaded guilty to procuring person under 18 for prostitution in Florida. So that was admitted by him. So we know that to be the case.

[Periel]

But what is the story about, you know, dozens of victims in that case?

[Michael Tracy]

I got you. Yeah.

[Periel]

Okay, let me ask you a yes or no question. First of all.

[Michael Tracy]

What, am I under interrogation here?

[Periel]

No.

[Michael Tracy]

Am I on the stand now?

[Periel]

Did he engage in erotic massages with multiple underage women as far as you understand?

[Michael Tracy]

I would say yes.

[Periel]

You say yes. Okay.

[Michael Tracy]

Erotic, but you know, happy ending. 50, 50 something year old should not be engaging in erotic massages. Whatever. Gradation of eroticism, happy endings, you know. Well, you happy end. He often. Sorry to get graphic, please. He like mo for the most part would in these massages, based on what I can understand is he would masturbate himself.

[Periel]

What the hell is the matter with you?

[Michael Tracy]

Shut up. So when you say happy ending. Right.

[Periel]

Take it easy.

[Michael Tracy]

But not always.

[Periel]

Not always.

[Michael Tracy]

But. But yeah, I think yes. I mean that is pretty clear with the girls in the room. Yeah, yeah.

[Periel]

Like that's never happened to you. So.

[Michael Tracy]

Yes, so. So yes, I mean, I think that is true. But when we say when you talk about like whoever was 30 or 50 victims from this Palm beach case. So that relates to a weird quirk in how the government had to approach this. Because there was something called the Crime Victims Rights act, right. Which is passed in 04 and it becomes very much relevant in terms of how this now even manifests today, which seemingly required or was argued that it required the government to notify whom it had designated as victims, but had not been formally adjudicated as such. Any kind of adversarial process that they were pursuing a plea agreement with Epstein or a non prosecution agreement. Now, it's not even clear what the government's obligations were in that stage. However, they did identify what they claim to be this sort of universe of victims, separate and apart from the particular victim that Epstein pleaded guilty to having procured for prostitution. But there were problems even with that. Like, there was an instance where somebody whom the government had identified as a victim and received a victim notification letter denied that she was a victim. Some of these supposed victims wanted to exonerate Epstein.

[Periel]

Okay. But what we do know for sure is that he engaged in illegal acts with underage girls. Well, and if there's problems with some of the cases, we believe that there is a number of cases which were legit. He didn't plead guilty thinking that he was innocent. Let me just do a year and a half in prison. I didn't do anything. Right. And normally when somebody pleads guilty, that's in return for the fact that a certain number of the charges get dropped. So he was guilty and he belonged in jail. Now, so. So that. That. We know that that part is true.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah. But how long did he belong in jail? For the event to specify.

[Periel]

So the next question is that I want to know whether it's true or not. Did he have. And what is the evidence of him? We know that he had all these relationships with Bill Gates and Alan Dershowitz and the. The Prince this and, you know, and. And Larry Summers and, you know, who's who.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah.

[Periel]

Did he have cameras around his premises where he filmed people having sex and blackmailed them?

[Michael Tracy]

Well, here's the thing. I mean, this gets to the online folklore around this stuff. Some of the claim that he had every room wired, right. Where he had secret cameras to capture prominent individuals in sexually compromising situations. Those claims seem to primarily originate with probably two of the alleged victims who are just out of their mind. Batshit. So one of them is Maria Farmer, who, you know, parades around as though she's the original Epstein victim or accuser. She was literally 26 when she says that she voluntarily climbed into bed with Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein at Leslie Wexner's compound in Ohio.

[Periel]

And Leslie Wexner is.

[Michael Tracy]

He was one of the richest men in the United States. He gave Epstein, famously, power of attorney. He owned Victoria's Secret, the Limited, and other sort of women's clothing retailers. But he also had many other business holdings.

[Periel]

So he's the kind of guy who probably wouldn't have any way to meet attractive young women without Jeffrey Epstein to help him.

[Michael Tracy]

Well, I mean, it's speculated that he could have been gay. I don't know if that's true. Who knows? I mean, I actually. It would make sense to me if he was gay. I mean, he had a wife technically, but I don't know.

[Periel]

So go.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah.

[Periel]

So the camera cameras around, that's One.

[Michael Tracy]

Woman, Maria Farmer, right, Who is a lunatic. And she's actually, as of May of this year, suing the federal government, the US federal government, for $600 million as part of, like, some putative class action lawsuits claiming that she endured, like 30 years of psychic turmoil, you know, depression, PTSD. She claims that she was given at least two cancers by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell and also Donald Trump and Bill Clinton. Who knows what the hell she's even talking about? It's a crazy person, okay? But she never had her. She never had her credibility, like, examined at all. Even, like, not for, like these alt media people, podcasters, podcast, I call them podcast creatures now. They were just totally credulous about her. And we can get into more specific.

[Periel]

No, we got to move because.

[Michael Tracy]

I know, I know, I know, I know.

[Periel]

She's one woman.

[Michael Tracy]

And the other one, yeah, the other one is this woman, Sarah Ransom, also a full fledged adult at the time that she encountered Epstein. And she gave a deposition and she was asked by the lawyers deposing her, like, what did you do for a living when you first came to New York city at age 21 or 22? I think it was 22. What did you do to make a living? She said, oh, what I would do was I would. Through an agency, which I guess is a modeling agency because she's an aspiring model, but she didn't Best Buy. How would you make money? Oh, I would be asked to meet gentlemen for dinner and I would get $1,500. And she said on occasion, I would have consensual sex with these gentlemen because she found them attractive. So then one thing led to another and she encountered Epstein's, like, organization, and she did fly to the island in the Virgin Islands and so forth. But anyway, she had a mental breakdown, essentially. She tried to commit suicide a few times. Definitely troubled person. And in 2016, she started emailing this woman, Maureen Callahan, journalist of the New York Post, saying, hey, I'm an Epstein victim. I have these sex tapes on Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, Prince Andrew and Richard Branson. And my mission is to make sure that quote, unquote, pedophile Trump, nor neither Trump nor Hillary Clinton, whom she called that, called that evil bitch Hillary, get elected president. And I alone can make sure that neither get elected because I have sex tapes that implicate them somehow we ending with Bill Clinton or Trump himself. Right? And so she was in communications with this New York Post journalist, and one thing leads to another. She admits that she made the whole thing up. She had no sex tapes. And she's the one who, like, people just assume must be a credible source for this claim that every house was wired. Now, the New York Times last month, did Post publish an article in Epstein's New York house from around, it seems, 2019, when Epstein was indicted after having been federally charged and then arrested. And it does seem to show, like, some surveillance cameras in some rooms in the house, but it's not clear, like, when they might have been installed. You know, Ghislaine Maxwell, in her proffer interview with the deputy attorney general from July that came out just, like, two or three weeks ago, she denies adamantly that there were cameras, like, systematically installed anywhere. I haven't seen any systematic proof or any evidence that they were installed in the Virgin Islands house in, like, you know, private areas, like, I don't know, a bedroom or a bathroom or something. In the New Mexico ranch that Epstein owned in the Palm beach house. Except for in the Palm beach house, Epstein did install a surveillance camera, like, around his work desk because one of his staff had stolen from him. And the police came in and installed a surveillance camera for him after that incident. It was like. I think that was an 03.

[Periel]

Well, plenty of people have cameras. The question was he? Was he? Okay, well. So Melinda Gates, as I understand it.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah, we're on to Melinda Gates.

[Periel]

Well, it's related to this. Melinda Gates felt that her husband Bill was up to sexual no good with Jeffrey Epstein. It doesn't mean. Young girl.

[Michael Tracy]

Give me the quote. Give me the quote where she said it.

[Periel]

Well, I'm.

[Michael Tracy]

Because people make this claim all the time, but I feel like they're sort of, like, muddling things.

[Periel]

She notes that Epstein's friendship with Bill was one of the reasons she knew the marriage was irreparable. I did not. Whereas.

[Michael Tracy]

I don't buy it.

[Periel]

You don't buy it?

[Michael Tracy]

No. I mean, I've seen that interview. If it's the same interview that you're.

[Periel]

Referring to, I hope this is not. I just. I just googled now. Yeah, chatgpt. The New York Times published a deeply disturbing article that raised serious questions about Bill's conduct. Questions that suggested. This is Melinda talking, suggested he had betrayed not only our marriage, but also my values.

[Michael Tracy]

Okay, but this is while they're in the midst of a divorce.

[Periel]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Michael Tracy]

Okay. The interview that I've seen with Melinda Gates is she's asked about the Epstein thing and Bill's relationship with Epstein, and she says, yeah, yeah, that was a factor. I don't buy that. It was like, The. I've heard people claim I was even on the podcast, you know, a few days ago. Or somebody says, what do you mean, Melinda Gates? Or like, that was the reason why they got divorced. I don't think that's been established at all. I mean, I just think, you know, it's something you can kind of backfill to justify whatever led to the dissolution of the relationship. But sure, I mean, yeah, Bill Gates was an associate of Epstein. Post Epstein's entry of a guilty plea in Florida in 2008. And then he served his term of incarceration in Florida until 09. So it's like a 13 month sentence essentially where he was in the custody of the Palm Beach Sheriff's Office. So June of 08 to July of 09. And, you know, among the prominent people that he did meet with after that time period was Bill Gates. So I think, you know, if I were. If I were, you know, divorcing one of the wealthiest men on earth, and I wanted like the most money possible, I would maybe cite the purported relationship with Jeffrey Epstein to.

[Periel]

I'm gonna find.

[Michael Tracy]

Enhance my argument.

[Periel]

Yeah. I'm gonna find the clip from her memoirs and I'll put it into the video. So. So now, now let's. Now you tell us about this. I'm just trying to. And then we can get to the. This stuff that I think is really crazy.

[Michael Tracy]

Sure.

[Periel]

So you have these people that surrounded him. There is some inkling there. I mean, Melinda Gay could just be like really inexcusably just smearing her husband here.

[Michael Tracy]

Well, no, he did have a relationship with Epstein.

[Periel]

That's true. Yeah. But then you do have. And tell us about this. You have these guys. Who's the guy from Apollo who gave him 150?

[Michael Tracy]

Leon Black.

[Periel]

Yeah, Tell that, sir. Could this. This does make one wonder what's going on here. Did Epstein have something over on these guys? Now, again, I'm just going to say. I'm sure you would say it too. That doesn't mean that these guys were there with underage girls. It could just be enough that they're with hookers. Right. It could be like men, men, women.

[Michael Tracy]

They don't have to be full hookers or just women. Yeah. You know, Epstein did like to have in the New York house, so you gotta sort of distinguish somewhat. In the Palm beach situation, it did end up including at least some girls who were of, like, lower socioeconomic status. You know, there's some notorious stories of like, girls recruiting other girls who might have, like, lived in a trailer park or had, like, unstable family lives. But in the New York situation, which is a little bit distinct, Epstein did like to have, you know, and Michael Wolfe, the journalist, talks about this because he visited this house and, you know, maybe.

[Periel]

No, he's not considered completely reliable, Michael.

[Michael Tracy]

Not in every instance. But, like, he did, like, it is true that he had this relationship with Epstein. He says that he introduced Steve Banchen and Jeffrey Epstein. And I think he's right. I mean, I think that's proven by the evidence he has audio recordings of Epstein that he took. So, you know, he's not just like, totally making stuff up here, although. But, yeah, you should use your critical thinking to maybe vet some of the stuff that he says. But for the most part, at least, when it comes to Epstein, I think, you know, he's on the mark in terms of what he reports. But, you know, Wolf talks about how, you know, Epstein at the New York house, and it was like, the biggest. I totally understand why people are so intrigued by this, because the guy Epstein, did have what was the largest private residence in Manhattan was basically a mansion. And there are no mansions in Manhattan, pretty much. Right. But he had one or he had the, you know, the biggest private residence. And it. And what Epstein would do was he would. And it was. He was given it by Wexner, who was the previous owner of that house and on, you know, on the Upper east side. And what Epstein would do was he would like to have younger, you know, younger women who were attractive who would just kind of like be sort of like background decorations. Right. And he would. It would be like sort of a gentleman's club. Like, every now and then there would be a woman who would come to one of his soirees was sort of like an idiosyncratic woman. Right. For the most part, it was men.

[Periel]

And.

[Michael Tracy]

And they would be sort of adorned with these younger attractors, women who would just like, you know, be answering the door or, you know, serving drinks or stuff like that. Right. But those women tended to be like, you know, they weren't, you know, they were more sophisticated young women. Right. They weren't like trailer park types who, like, came from unstable lives. For the most part, I'm just generalizing. Like, in other words, they knew what. What they were doing, and it wasn't clear that they were like, necessarily always just like outright prostituting themselves at every instance.

[Periel]

But sometimes they were.

[Michael Tracy]

I can't think of a specific instance when in the New York house that happened. It's possible. It's possible. I mean, people just like, that's the thing. People make logical leaps based on their suppositions on this stuff. And I want to be really tethered to the evidence, which I know is a really controversial thing to want to do, but I think it's actually pretty necessary because otherwise people get so ahead of themselves or beyond their skis. And just like propounding these theories based on what they assume must have been proven true at some point, but really hasn't when you dig into the details.

[Periel]

Right, but we do. But we do need to have some explanation why people were giving this man.

[Michael Tracy]

Okay, so Leon, millions of. Yeah, I got you. So in 20, early 2021, an accounting firm, I'm not sure if it was Deloitte, I forget the firm, but it was hired by Leon Black to audit essentially his relationship with Epstein, and they submitted the report to the sec. So you can't lie on that unless you want to get yourself in legal hot water. I don't necessarily claim that it's fully comprehensive or like there's no information that might have been excluded theoretically. But in terms of what's in that report, and anybody can go search for it, Epstein was hired by Leon Black as a money manager, just as he sort of had these rarefied, these services for rarefied wealthy people, extremely high net worth people, such as Wexner, such as Leon Black, who was a billionaire hedge fund guy, such as Elizabeth Johnson, who was an heiress to the Johnson and Johnson family fortune, and one or two others. And what is reported in this report is that Epstein saved Leon Black like over $100 million, I think on tax avoidance, essentially, or other tactics that he had to save these guys money. Because when he was at Bear Stearns, right, in the late 70s or early 80s, as a relatively young man, he rose quickly through Bear Stearns. I think there's some evidence, even if you look at his birthday book, that he really was sort of like a math prodigy. He taught math, obviously at that private school, Dalton in Manhattan. But he sort of like innovated like novel tactics to save money for high net worth individuals. And I'm not like a Wall street guy, so I can't give you, like.

[Periel]

So this was some percentage. He saved him a couple billion dollars.

[Michael Tracy]

Well, he's Leon. In this report it says he saved leon black over $100 million. And so he got a percentage.

[Periel]

But if he gave him 160, he gave him $100 million. Right. Leon Black gave Epstein over 100 million.

[Michael Tracy]

And I'm not Leon Black gave Epstein. But whatever it was, it would have been a lot. And same with Wexner. Right. Alan Dershowitz says that he was told by Epstein.

[Periel]

Yeah.

[Michael Tracy]

That he got. That he, Epstein got 1% of Leon Black's revenues or however you characterize the income given the services that Epstein provided as a money manager. Now, Liam Wexner was one of the wealthiest people in the United States. He had like a fortune of like 8 or 9 billion, I think. So do the arithmetic. That adds up to a lot, even if it's just 1%. Right. Especially in cumulatively. So look, I mean, I'm all for if, if it were possible, if I could snap my fingers.

[Periel]

Yeah.

[Michael Tracy]

And we can have a full forensic audit about. Epstein accumulated every penny of his wealth. I would snap my fingers in a split second. But I think a lot of people who are invested in the sort of more fantastical narratives here. I'm like point to, the, point to Epstein's wealth as like this total mystery, as if there's no information about it whatsoever. And that's just not true. Now, is it incomplete information? Sure. Is it? I think it's probable that he stored some money off sea overseas or whatever. But when he was arrested in 2019. Right. In terms of these bail hearings, he had to report his income or his lawyers had to report his income for him or his net worth. And it was around, it was reported to at that time to be around 600 million ton of money. Sure. But so he wasn't a billionaire.

[Periel]

This says here that Black paid Epstein $158 million. This is black. And Epstein maintained that the fees were tied to real financial value delivered. Indeed, Black believe Epstein's ideas ultimately saved him at least 1 billion and possibly over 2 billion in taxes. If true, one might argue. Okay, that's 10 or 15%, it seems. It seems, it seems, it seems hard to believe. Right. But why, I mean, why that seems. Well, I mean. Yeah, what like he gave him this.

[Michael Tracy]

House because he saved him $2 billion. The House essentially in lieu of monetary remuneration. How much is that house in New York? I don't, I mean, I don't know the exact figure, but a shitload.

[Periel]

I mean, what's hard for me to believe is that somebody who works at one of the great biggest hedge funds, most important hedge funds in the world, that anybody could have cracked the code of investment such that they could make themselves so much more valuable as a money manager than anybody else on earth. I know Warren Buffett wouldn't believe that were true. These guys, they don't believe anybody has that Kind of knowledge.

[Michael Tracy]

It wasn't limited to Epstein. Investment knowledge, though. I mean, if you look at.

[Periel]

So tax avoidance, thank God to Deputy.

[Michael Tracy]

Attorney General Todd Blanch for going to interview Gillian Maxwell for the first time. Because Maxwell says that. That on, I think it was July 22nd of this year, it was the first time she says, I think, credibly, that she had ever been asked by any government official or law enforcement official or what have you, to describe her role. Maxwell's role in what we're being told was the most prolific child sex trafficking ring in American history and world history. Who knows at this point? But she hadn't been asked to describe her role in it by any government authority until July of 2025. Imagine that.

[Periel]

And you maintain there was no child sex trafficking ring.

[Michael Tracy]

Well, I only brought that up because she talks about what she observed in terms of Epstein's business activities, including on behalf of Wexner and Leon Black and others. And she says that, for instance, Epstein restructured financially Wexner's entire business portfolio. What does that mean exactly? I don't know. I'm not a business guy, but it seems like pretty complex work, potentially. He drafted, you know, he basically oversaw Epstein's staff and. Sorry, Wexner's staff in terms of, you know, that worked on his houses or his other holdings or whatever. He ran Epstein's. No, I keep screwing up the word, the surnames. Epstein ran Wexner's property developments in Ohio. There was a country club that Wexner owned in Ohio that Epstein sort of ran the finances for. He drafted the. The trust funds for Wexner's children.

[Periel]

So you're making the case that you think it's some. That it could be plausible that Wexner would have thought that Epstein was worth.

[Michael Tracy]

Sure.

[Periel]

This amount of money.

[Michael Tracy]

And that's what Max Bolt says now, is she the most credible person on earth? I'm not even arguing that. I'm just saying that it's nice to finally get information from somebody who's been accused of all these heinous crimes that has been totally missing from any of the popular narrative this entire time, which is informed. And the popular narrative is informed virtually exclusively by the claims of extortionist lawyers like Bradley Edwards and David Boies. Bradley Edwards, whom I tried to ask a question at this D.C. press conference last week. And. And these like, you know, chronic fabricating accusers such as Virginia Roberts Giuffre and others, and delusional maniacs like Maria Farmer or Sarah Ransom, etc.

[Periel]

Could it be something as informal as a follow. And then we'll get to the conspiracy theories. You hang out with a lot of important people. You get drunk, they're hanging out, they let the guard.

[Michael Tracy]

Didn't drink.

[Periel]

Whatever.

[Michael Tracy]

He's a health freak.

[Periel]

They do. And Trump doesn't drink either. Right. And anyway, you're hanging out. You. They let the guard down. There's a lot of beautiful women around. Eventually, a certain number of them succumb to temptation and have sex with prostitutes or just women. And now they know that, you know, I know that Jeffrey knows what I did. Now Jeffrey wants to do business with me. He never has to mention. Unless you say this, I'll tell your white and a wise person who these people are who know not to take chances, don't necessarily say, yeah, it's probably. I probably should let me just do this with Jeffrey. Why would I risk the fact that he has things over on me? He doesn't need to spell it out. Is that a possible scenario?

[Michael Tracy]

So that sounds superficially plausible, but. So this guy, Bradley Edwards, who was basically Epstein's most strident, longtime legal nemesis, who ran essentially as the MC this press conference in D.C. last week, which we're told Thomas Massie was the co organator, said, this is the biggest press conference in D.C. in at least five years. But Bradley Edwards, the lawyer, was running it. And I'm now deep enough into this whole crap that I have actually read Bradley Edwards book. Okay? It's called Relentless Pursuit. Anybody can go look it up if they'd like. It was from 2020.

[Periel]

Do you have a bedroom with, like, photos hanging the Charlie Day meme.

[Michael Tracy]

Right? Like, I'm dot connecting everything. So Bradley Edwards book came out in 2020. It's called relentless Pursuit. And toward the end of the book, he addresses these theories that he says are very widespread about Epstein supposedly running a blackmail operation of some kind. And this guy would be the last person on Earth to admit anything that was absolving of Jeffrey Epstein. Okay? And he says over the course of his incredibly intensive engagements with Epstein, over the course of a decade, he has never seen any evidence that Epstein ever engaged in blackmail. So that's what this Bradley Edwards guy says, who's now running Epstein survivor press conferences in front of the U.S. capitol. So I'll just defer to him. I'll cite him. That's what he says. And so now, did your sort of hypothesis. Does it sort of, like, strike people as, again, superficially plausible? Sure, but I need evidence, and there is none.

[Periel]

Right. Okay. Now from that, a picture of A wealthy guy who's got his hooks in a lot of other wealthy people and obviously charismatic and a bit of a con man. We've heard stories like this before. A little bit of maybe a little Madoff mixed into him and sex and all that and criminal activity. That's an interesting story.

[Michael Tracy]

As.

[Periel]

An isolated story, however, now we come to the accusations that he's also a CIA agent, that all this sexual stuff was actually done on behalf of the CIA. And then for the real aficionados, for.

[Michael Tracy]

The real, most vehement, for the real.

[Periel]

Gourmet connoisseurs of this stuff, it comes to the Jews. You know, this is a delicacy, is a rare delicacy, but let's get to the Jews last. And your friend, Martyrmaid. So. So, oh, boy. Was Jeffrey Epstein. Is there any evidence that Jeffrey Epstein was a CIA honeypot operation?

[Michael Tracy]

Okay, so here's where that theory comes from. Ghislaine Maxwell's father.

[Periel]

Yeah.

[Michael Tracy]

Robert Maxwell was like a media baron. He ran. Was it the Daily Mirror? The Daily Record? I think it was the Daily Mirror, but I may be mixing up UK newspapers that he bought. I think it was in the 80s. And so when I don't know a fact for sure, I will qualify what I say these guys, exactly the opposite, but go ahead. Okay, but these guys, like Martyr Maid, you know, you know, these other charlatans, and Mark, Daryl, Cooper, if you ever hear this, you are a charlatan. I mean, you're like a. You're like such like a crybaby. It's unbelievable. But he just will state facts as though he can. He could authoritatively substantiate them, which he clearly can't, but we'll get to that.

[Periel]

And, you know, I admonished Matthew Cockrell for using. For calling somebody a charlatan. So I just wanted to say, no.

[Michael Tracy]

He'S a charlatan for sure.

[Periel]

All right.

[Michael Tracy]

Okay. And a crybaby. I will stick to that and I'll stipulate the crybaby. Go ahead. So, yeah, he's like, yeah. Anyway, so people will make a logical leap that because Robert Maxwell, who it is pretty well proven, was involved in trafficking arms to Israel in the 1948 Arab Israeli War with the Israelis called the War of Independence, or, you know, the Arabs will call the Palatins, will call the nakba, etc. It is pretty well founded that Maxwell, Robert Maxwell, trafficked arms from then Czechoslovakia, which is his ethnic heritage, to Israel for use in that war. So that's. Okay, fine. And then he became a Benefactor of the state of Israel.

[Periel]

What does that mean, benefactor?

[Michael Tracy]

Well, he funded pro. You know what? I actually, I'm not 100 sure. I think it's. It's assumed that. I think it's plausible that he funded like pro Israel or pro Jewish, whatever.

[Periel]

Plant, a lot of trees.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah. I mean, so he was involved. And there's a story about how there was this guy. You know, I think I know who it was, but I'm not even gonna say the names. I'm not 100 sure. Who basically was leaking Israeli nuclear secrets in the 1980s and Robert Maxwell caught wind of it.

[Periel]

Pollard.

[Michael Tracy]

No, it wasn't Pollard. I think it was Ben Minash, actually.

[Periel]

Oh, okay. He's considered to be also an unreliable character.

[Michael Tracy]

Well, I mean, I think. I think he was. You know, I think you seem to have reliably, potentially had information about Israel's nuclear program in the 80s. But then he's made a whole living on like.

[Periel]

But what is true? When he was buried. This part.

[Michael Tracy]

This part is in the Mount of Olives.

[Periel]

Yes.

[Michael Tracy]

In the next Easter, who's who of.

[Periel]

Important Israeli patriots showed up to his funeral. Right?

[Michael Tracy]

Sure. So he's buried in the Mount of Olives. And I would say a next East Jerusalem. Let's not debate that. But he's buried in the same. He was given an honorary burial just as Sheldon Adelson was. So Sheldon Adelson for years was the top Republican donor in the United States of the Venetian. Yeah. Casino magnate. And also Macau, Las Vegas. And it was a multi billionaire. He was hardcore pro Israel and huge Trump donor. Yeah. And now Miriam Adelson, his. His wife is carrying on, you know, carrying the torch. And when Sheldon Adelson died in early 2021, he died in Malibu, California. Right. And they flew his body to Israel or they flew it to the. To East Jerusalem for an honorary burial in the same burial spot. I wish when I was in East Jerusalem I went to go visit it.

[Periel]

But if you spoke more nicely about them, they might invite you.

[Michael Tracy]

They have.

[Periel]

And did the. Did Adelson have all these important figures show?

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah. Netanyahu went.

[Periel]

So what you're saying is that the. There's no reason to think he was Mossad. He could.

[Michael Tracy]

Well, no, he. I mean, I'm sure he had some connections to the Israeli state. I mean. Sure. Was he like an active massage agent? I don't think he had to even be an active massage agent. Right. Like, he clearly had an affinity.

[Periel]

You say massage agent or massage.

[Michael Tracy]

You know what, I'm cross. I'm Crossing our theme here. Massage Assad. Did the Mossad perform massages? Maybe to epithine.

[Periel]

So they. So, well, we skipped over the CIA. So let's start. Want to start with the Mossad first. So. So Maxwell's Ghislaine, Maxwell's dad, may or may not have been definitely connected. Maybe Mossad maybe. Maybe Sad adjacent, maybe. And somehow from that we're supposed to.

[Michael Tracy]

Believe he died seemingly mysteriously in 1991. He was on his yacht, so therefore his daughter found, you know, in the water.

[Periel]

His daughter has a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein somehow. That means Jeffrey Epstein must be Mossad.

[Michael Tracy]

Right? I mean, I think it's sort of silly for people to just extrapolate that because somebody's father might have been at least Mossad adjacent or Israel connected or whatever, if that means that his youngest daughter must have been. I mean, it's possible, but you need to have some evidence, and there is really none.

[Periel]

Well, there's certain glib observations I would make, which is if I'm the head of the Message Assad and I actually want to engage Jeffrey Epstein in this sophisticated honey pot scheme to get, you know, I don't even know Bill Clinton on. On tape, I'm going to tell him, take it easy, dude. We don't need you running all over town advertising the fact we don't need.

[Michael Tracy]

You having high school girls.

[Periel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Tracy]

You know, being transported to your Palm beach house. I mean, that might blow our cover. Right?

[Periel]

So this is a little bit reckless in terms of the way he was reckless.

[Michael Tracy]

You know, thank God Maxwell, Ghislaine Maxwell did that proffer interview finally with Top Blanche. Top Blanche, if you're out there, thank you for this interview because she gives really interesting information that makes a lot of sense, which is that she says around the late 90s, early 2000s. So sort of coinciding with what I'm calling this Palm beach phase of the Epstein saga, she says she observed Epstein ingesting or taking what she regarded to be disturbingly high doses of testosterone, which, physiologically, it would make sense that that would have made him maybe more reckless, impulsive, obviously higher sex drive.

[Periel]

I have that naturally. And I'll tell you, it's very difficult to control.

[Michael Tracy]

Maybe I'll look into it for myself, but because I'm clearly following in Epstein's footsteps. Oh, it's a joke, people. We're at the Comedy Cellar. So, yeah, I mean, that's definitely some. That's definitely useful context to understand what potentially went on here with Epstein in that particular phase.

[Periel]

But now CIA CIA, C. This is one.

[Michael Tracy]

But ever.

[Periel]

This is one that.

[Michael Tracy]

I'll give you one. Yeah.

[Periel]

Then I want to get to his suicide or his murder. This is one that I did look into years ago, and it was really the beginning, the end of my sweating.

[Michael Tracy]

Because I'm so passionate about that subject.

[Periel]

So there was this. And I'll let you fill in the details, but there was this reporter who claims some hearsay that Acosta, who was. Whatever his position was, claimed that the reason he gave Epstein his sweetheart deal was because he was told Epstein was intelligence.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah. So.

[Periel]

And then this is. And everybody should know what I'm about to say. And this goes to. I didn't want to name names. I feel bad, but people I know, people I'm friends with. No, no people.

[Michael Tracy]

I mean, we have to name names at this point because I'm sorry, if we don't, then there's just total impunity for, like, just a total detachment from any factual standards about any journalists all.

[Periel]

Around who talk about this. They know very well that there was an Office of Professional Responsibility.

[Michael Tracy]

I don't think they did know until recently, until I told them. In many cases.

[Periel]

Well, I've told people and they still don't mention. Which looked into this. They questioned Acosta. Acosta denied having said it, denied any knowledge. And they even offered him a top secret forum where presumably he could say anything. He want a skiff. Right. And he still said, no, there's no need for that.

[Michael Tracy]

Well, we don't know. So I have foia, the DOJ people tell me you don't want the Epstein files. What's wrong with you?

[Periel]

No, I want more freedom of information.

[Michael Tracy]

I want Matt. So explain to the woman who might not be familiar. Sorry, we're at the Comedy Cellar. I respect women. I cherish women like Donald Trump. So I've been. I've been sending Freedom Information requests to a bunch of different agencies, state and federal and local, actually, for the maximum amount of even possible Epstein files. I want them all, of course. So that's why I'm against this Massie Khanna bill, which maybe we should talk about, because it includes these exceptions or excuses that the federal government, the doj and FBI can use to continue withholding or redacting a huge array of potential Epstein files on the basis of either protecting the privacy rights of purported victims, many of whom are full of shit or fake, and then also on national security grounds or for, like, related to US Foreign policy. Really, what's the nexus with US Foreign policy or national security with Jeffrey Epstein?

[Periel]

Any evidence that Epstein could have been involved in the CIA?

[Michael Tracy]

Not that I know of.

[Periel]

Nothing.

[Michael Tracy]

I mean, it's. Anything's possible.

[Periel]

No, no.

[Michael Tracy]

Okay. Okay. So he did meet with William Burns. Okay, so he was the. Under Biden. He was the CIA director.

[Periel]

He wrote the net memo or.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah, yeah. In 08.

[Periel]

Yeah.

[Michael Tracy]

He was the U.S. ambassador to Russia under George W. Bush. And he said, you know, infamously, that Ukraine is a red line for Russians across the political spectrum, not just Putin. And he was sort of advising the Bush administration at the time not to encroach on what.

[Periel]

Means Nietzsche. That's what it's called.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah, yeah. Not to encroach on what Russia perceives to be its sphere of influence, especially with Ukraine, which is hugely. Emotionally.

[Periel]

So Epstein met with him.

[Michael Tracy]

So Epstein meets with him. I think it was in 2014. Maybe it was when he was out of office or maybe just getting ready to depart. He had a million government positions. I think he was like, a deputy State Department guy or something like that. And the claim was that Epstein met with him, and they talked about, basically, as he was entering his phase as a private citizen, what should he do with his finances, Something like that. That was the claim. But then he later becomes a CIA director.

[Periel]

Right.

[Michael Tracy]

Which is obviously fodder for a billion different theories. And look, I mean, I think William Burns should be scrutinized for his role as FBI CIA director under Biden. I mean, he was up. Who knows what he was up to? But I think. I'm not sure how many meetings it was disclosed that they had. It was either. At least two, I think, but. But, okay, that's just like, one dot, and then people want to connect it to me, and he must have been an intelligence asset. And I'll get into the Acosta quote or. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's.

[Periel]

And then they'll tell us who Virginia Jaffrey is at home. Tell us who she is.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah.

[Periel]

Then I want to watch some videos. Go ahead.

[Michael Tracy]

Okay. I see Tim Dylan on the screen over there. Yeah, yeah. So. So this Acosta quote, right, it's become central to the folklore, especially on the Internet, around Epstein. And it's amazing. Nobody, even these, like, vaunted Epstein researchers like Whitney Webb, Daryl Cooper, you know, million others, they don't bother to really investigate substantively anyway or with any degree of adequate sort of scrutiny. The provenance of this supposed quote, it appeared in one July 2019 article in the Daily Beast by this woman, Vicki Ward, has her own problems in terms of credibility and how she's kind of embellished her role in this whole Epstein thing, which I don't even want to get into because it would derail the rest of the conversation. But she writes in this 2019 Daily Beast article that Acosta, who was at that point the labor secretary in the first Trump administration, but had been the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida at the time that this federal non prosecution agreement was negotiated with Epstein in 2007, 2008, he said Vicki Ward reports that she was told by a former senior White House official two or three years before that. So two or three years before 2019, during the Trump transition period. So after he won the 2016 election, I guess that Vicky Ward reports that she was told by this former official that Acosta said that he had been told that Epstein quote, belonged to intelligence and therefore to leave it alone or back off. So it's like quadruple hearsay. The source or the anonymous former senior White House official that told this to Vicky Ward is almost certainly Steve Bannon, who's a consummate bullshitter, essentially gossiper gossip monger, because he was collaborating with Vicky Ward around this time on a book trashing the Kushner's. And if you recall from the first Trump administration, Jared Kushner was like, like the, the biggest rival of Steve Bannon.

[Periel]

Yeah, this is like court intrigue.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Is that court gossip or whatever? And in other words, like the, the quote is like not at all meritorious in terms of the sourcing.

[Periel]

And they built a whole.

[Michael Tracy]

Any word won't respond to me. I mean, I've tried to question her.

[Periel]

Moynihan told me, by the way, Nancy Rommelman is upset that you didn't call her back.

[Michael Tracy]

Moynihan, I will get back to her. I'm sorry, I've been getting a lot of podcast requests recently, but I will give it more.

[Periel]

Moynihan told me that Michael Moynihan, that Vicki Ward said somewhere that she didn't even believe that Epstein was CIA.

[Michael Tracy]

Like, yeah, I mean she's all over the place. I mean, who knows with her? Like, why won't you reply to my emails, Vicki?

[Periel]

So now let's just get to Martyr Maid for a second.

[Michael Tracy]

And then there was that OPR report. Right? Yeah, which there's which. In which. Which. Which contains the only known instance in which Alex Costa was asked or addressed directly under oath and under penalty of perjury, whether he knew Epstein to have been an intelligence asset at the time that this Florida non prosecution agreement was negotiated. And again under oath, under penalty of perjury, Acosta responds directly to the doj, who could prosecute him. Potentially, yes, the answer is no, he didn't know this. Now, all these researchers and these online folklorists, they use that Vicky Ward like triple hearsay quote as the launch pad for their investigating frenetically these supposed intelligence ties. But they seemingly had no knowledge at all of this report that came out almost five years ago now, November of 2020. And that includes Whitney Webb, who didn't even know that it exists until I emailed her in August of this year. Seriously. And Martyr maid, or whatever the hell we want to call him, Darrell Cooper, who also clearly didn't know that this report existed when he went on Tucker Carlson's podcast for this emergency Epstein education session. And then Daryl Cooper, a hissy fit when I emailed him about it.

[Periel]

My erstwhile friend Daryl Cooper, he did a whole show with this guy, Ryan Dawson.

[Michael Tracy]

Oh, please.

[Periel]

All about. And I just want to say I wish I had it to cut in. They spend 25 minutes at the top of this show just bashing Israel and the Jews. Okay, I could not resist. Here is a few minutes of Daryl Cooper's deep dive into Epstein interview extravaganza with Holocaust denier Ryan Dawson. I also, I also edited in for flavor a few of Ryan Dawson's other comments from other interviews. Just so you get the full picture of who it is that Daryl Cooper has such esteem for.

[Michael Tracy]

If you get him going, I mean, he just, he's this, he's been on this stuff for so long. If you really want to go deep, go subscribe to Ryan Substack, support what he does, you know, and you don't, again, you don't have to agree with his tone on Israel.

[Periel]

You don't have to agree.

[Michael Tracy]

What people have to understand, like, Israel is a, it's a country run by criminals, like absolutely psychotic criminals, where they think God's a real estate agent. They just murder people. And Israel itself has thousands of sex slaves. They have brothels filled with young Eastern Europeans, a lot of Ukrainians recently who were lured there. They take their passports away and they are enforced. Prostitution, sex means rape. They had organizations for human trafficking, like the good kind where they would get Jewish refugees to Israel. So they had well organized outfits to do this type of thing. But the war's over and those never went away. And they just went right into bringing in forced labor force, sex slavery. And they don't care because they don't look at you as human beings. You're dumb. Goyum. And this is not like just organized crime like this state does this. It is organized by the state. The Israeli government had sex tourism rings. George Steinberg Hebrew language teacher they had little kids, like 8, 9 years old. Websites of them, nude, you know, hey, Israelis, you know, come a child, they're satanic. You look at it. Child pedophilia Jews, pornography Jews, organ trafficking Jews, Central banking Jews lying about war Jews, the neocons Jews, Communist Jews. Pick a lie, there they are. It's them every time and for no reason at all. The elected Adolf Hitler. Okay, we'll talk about Epstein.

[Periel]

We will.

[Michael Tracy]

But you got to understand, Israel is a safe haven for pedophiles. Tel Aviv is full of them. Some of them commit crimes again and end up in jail there. But this is why they feel like it's safe to do. And the fact that you have a society with enough customers that you could have pamphlets for rape tourism, what does that say? Like, of course they kill kids. You're dealing with like demonic level evil. But once you can get people to take a calm look at what evidence is available, the whole myth falls apart. And the reason it's important for me to say, well, who cares if it was 6 million or 1 million or 900,000, whatever. It's still wrong. But I'm not arguing about that. It's still wrong for people to starve to death or anything, but it was wrong on both sides. And without this extra kind of theatrical portion of the story, there's nothing to differentiate the allies from the Axis powers. I like that it's gotten to the point where now it's cool to talk about these psychopaths because that means the needles move to a point where you kind of can criticize Israel now. You couldn't before at all. Or you're dirty, anti Semite.

[Periel]

Israel and the Jews. Israel and the Jews. All to soften the ground for what is obviously the. The nucleus of their interest in this story.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah.

[Periel]

Which is that Epstein is Jewish and I. And related to Israel. And obviously this is, I think also Thomas Massey's.

[Michael Tracy]

This is the reason he's not sure about Massie. Although I'm disappointed with Massey. Let me just say I'm a critic of Israel that's a critic of us. No, no, no, no. But it's important. I'm a critic of U.S. foreign policy, including in relation to Israel. However, my argument has been that this whole obsession with Epstein and sexual blackmail as the prism through which we all need to somehow view the US relationship with Israel is a Total distraction. It drowns out what I think are necessary rational critiques of the US relationship with Israel. And nobody wants to hear it because they'd rather get themselves tantalized by these nonsensical and I think largely, almost certainly fictitious sexual blackmail theories that stem from Epstein that aren't based on any credible evidence.

[Periel]

You know, I take. Dave Smith doesn't really talk to me anymore.

[Michael Tracy]

Well, he's also foolish.

[Periel]

But there was a certain like just a practical happiness I get because I'm not anti Israel that people like Dave Smith, who I think does want to be a, A, an actual intellectual person.

[Michael Tracy]

Oh, please.

[Periel]

No, no. I think he does enough of these.

[Michael Tracy]

Failed comedians thinking that they're politically political intellectuals.

[Periel]

I think he got.

[Michael Tracy]

It's a scourge.

[Periel]

I think he got carried along, carried out to see by the undertow. And the undertow was that these people like Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson, whatever it is.

[Michael Tracy]

Candace Owens, the intellectual leading light of.

[Periel]

Our time, and Daryl Cooper, who he didn't have the sense to break ranks from when he first started to see himself.

[Michael Tracy]

That's cowardly.

[Periel]

Now he's all out, right? So I take.

[Michael Tracy]

Hold on, let me.

[Periel]

So I take a. A, A just a cynical, practical. What's the word? Jesus Christ. I can't think anyway, satisfaction of the fact that by keeping his relationship with Candace Owens and Martyrmaid and these vicious. He has discredited. What might I tell you what discredit might be an anti Israel position similar to yours and now similar. Now it's gotten dirtied by the fact that. How are you going to trust these people when they can't even. When they can't even break from Nazis, Right?

[Michael Tracy]

Let's leave the Nazis aside, okay? Not that I'm unwilling to discuss Nazism.

[Periel]

He took expediency. That was world of right. It was speed for him.

[Michael Tracy]

But here he went to the talking point, to Turning Point USA conference, which is run by Charlie Kirk, who's now been assassinated. Okay, so that's bizarre. I don't even know how to deal with that. But he went. There was in July, like about a week or so after this DOJ FBI memo came out on July 6th which announced there's no Epstein client list, there was no evidence of blackmail, there's nobody additionally to prosecute, et cetera. And then everybody went insane. Then we had the summer of Epstein, as I lovingly call it, which is probably the best summer of my life, frankly. So you know, like the summer of 69. The song. Yeah, I'm gonna. Maybe I should Make a song about it. I'll put do the acoustic guitar rendition. But Dave Smith and I wrote an article about this because it's just insane because people were sending it to me, right? So Dave Smith goes to this essentially Normie Republican gathering for like the youth wing of the Republican Party. That's a Charlie Kirk RIP did run. And Dave Smith just like says, oh yeah. He states as fact that Donald Trump, you know, the guy that all these people are like venerating to the point of absurdity in other any other circumstance that Donald Trump just like did a just covered up for a mass rapist ring. Child rapist ring.

[Periel]

I know.

[Michael Tracy]

Just like based on what Dave, like what do you know that we don't? And it was insane. It was just like defamatory. Like I'm the last person to rush to say hold up everyone, don't defame President Trump. As though. Cuz I don't even, you know, I have a million critiques of Donald Trump. But like seriously, you're gonna now make the main critique that's like popular on the Internet being that he's a pedophile and that he's covering up child rapist ring. At this, the D.C. press conference last.

[Periel]

Week, Thomas Massie said that too.

[Michael Tracy]

Thomas Massie, okay. So I used to at least appreciate Thomas Massie because he would go against the grain. He's one of the very few Republicans who's not totally subservient to Trump. Trump has vouchers to Primarium in Kentucky for his next reelection in 2026. He's actually very knowledgeable in terms of legislative minutia. So he had been on the Rules Committee in the House. Most members of Congress, if you talk to them, don't even know anything about the Rules Committee. Thomas Massie does. And he's independent. He really is. So I had some admiration for Thomas Massie as well as Ro Khanna, who I also know on some level. But they're the ones who ran this press conference last week in D.C. with Epstein survivors. And I was invited to attend by Ro Khanna's staff because I had been in communication with Ro Khanna over Steve Bannon. Right angle of all this because Steve Bannon had these 15 or more hours of interview footage that he conducted with.

[Periel]

Jeffrey Epstein that he won't release.

[Michael Tracy]

He won't release. He won't claim what he won't say why. He says, oh, it's for some documentary. But he said that in the past no documentary ever comes out. Who knows? It's very suspicious. And he's always very valuable in talking to the media, including to me in the past. But he won't talk about his Epstein footage. So that's strange. But I talked to Ro Khanna about this, right? And so I got invited to this Epstein press conference. I went, right. His staff escorted me in. And then I asked a question to somebody. You know, this guy, Bradley Edwards, who's the lawyer who represents the purported Epstein victims, again, most of whom are fake. That sounds like a really controversial thing. Controversial thing to say. I will substantiate it to it to the hilt. And so I asked this question about Virginia Roberts Giuffre, right? Who's basically the central Epstein, quote, unquote victim. Without her, we're not talking about this right now. She's the one on whose behalf Bradley Edwards filed a motion in late 2014 called a motion for joinder, relates to this Crime Victims Rights Act. It's too arcane to get into at the moment, but he. In this motion, that's where Virginia Roberts Giuffre introduces this whole theory of a mass child sex trafficking ring and also a blackmail operation. And she names Prince Andrew and Alan Dershowitz as two specific individuals to whom she claimed that she was sex trafficked as a minor. But then she also says there's this whole constellation of other prominent individuals that she generically gestures toward, like foreign prime ministers and so forth, to whom she. By whom she was also.

[Periel]

Traffic just means, like, facilitated.

[Michael Tracy]

It means nothing.

[Periel]

I always thought of sex trafficking as somebody's kidnapped, Captain.

[Michael Tracy]

They're.

[Periel]

They're transported somewhere. It just means that if I say. If I. If I say, Periel, I'm hooking you up with this dude and I bring you over there, that could be considered traffic.

[Michael Tracy]

It means everything and nothing.

[Periel]

If I sell you Periel, it means everything.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah, I guess I'm in the market. It means everything and nothing. It means, like, literally.

[Periel]

But it has to be a legal definition for it.

[Michael Tracy]

There is, but it's so amorphous. It's so nebulous.

[Periel]

Like racketeering, maybe.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah, I mean, precise. Prosecutors love it because they could just define it however they want. So they tried to define it with Diddy, and then that case got did. He got acquitted because they couldn't establish that there was a real trafficking thing. It really just means like, somebody, like, across state lines, though, you think, but not necessarily. It's like just like somebody gets moved or move. Like you facilitate the ability for someone to move from point A to point B. That's what it means.

[Periel]

Now, what didn't Mike Johnson also say something like this?

[Michael Tracy]

Mike Johnson said a million things. Definition here though.

[Periel]

Wait a minute, we need to go.

[Michael Tracy]

There's a federal statute, but I'm saying it's very adaptable.

[Periel]

Yeah.

[Michael Tracy]

So Mike Johnson, I mean Mike Johnson is also full of shit. So Mike Johnson tried to claim just a few days ago that Donald Trump was an FBI informant against Jeffrey Epps. Then he walked that back. It's not true. Or that's never been proven by any evidence. And Mike Johnson also, like Mike Johnson also stokes hysteria because you know what this is, this issue is so weird. It's like Mike Johnson's this big like evangelical Christian, right? And there's always been this like cross ideological or cross religious alliance between the evangelical Christians who are obsessed with trafficking stuff and then the feminists who also say we need to empower prosecutors to more vociferously prosecute so called traffickers because I don't know, in the name of feminism or something. And that's how a lot of these.

[Periel]

And they also, and they also want to make sex work legal. You know, I don't know.

[Michael Tracy]

Who the hell knows. It's just like.

[Periel]

Which should all be segregated from underage people.

[Michael Tracy]

But it never gets segregated, you know why? So at this Epstein press conference, right. Which I was at, and we could do a whole show on that, but it was insane. But they knowingly conflate women who are being presented to the public as Epstein survivors. That's the official title. Now I don't know when survivor was the new word that was declared to be the one that we all had to repeat or repeat like it's some chant or platitude. But yeah. So they're all survivors. Right? But several, multiple of the women who spoke of this thing and they didn't clarify this when they spoke. Right. Cuz it's being run live on cnn. I had a friend text me when I was thrown out. Wait, my mom just saw you on cnn. I'm like, wait, can you send me the clip?

[Periel]

Why were you thrown out?

[Michael Tracy]

I'll tell you why. So I asked a question to. So so many of these Epstein survivors were adults at the time that they claimed they were victimized women in their 20s. So we'll leave that aside for now. People can go to my substack if they wanted more information. But I was thrown out because I was. Notwithstanding that I had been invited by Ro Khanna, the co organizer along with Massey, I waited my turn to call on to ask a question. And I'm the only guy of course. Or gal who would even have the slightest inclination to ask even a mildly critical question or skeptical question. Even though you think that's what you would do at a press conference.

[Periel]

Right, of course.

[Michael Tracy]

But like nobody had the faintest notion to do that naturally. Including the other journalists who were like all against me, even though I'm such a nice guy. So humorous. That's why I'm at the Comedy Cellar. And so I asked of Bradley Edwards who is like, basically like commandeering the press conference. You know, they, Ro Khanna and Thomas Massett, like they stepped aside. First of all, neither of them know basic details about the Epstein case. Like they could not sit for you.

[Periel]

They know he's Jewish. I know.

[Michael Tracy]

I don't want to say about Ron, I don't know. But I don't.

[Periel]

Thomas Massie, I don't know.

[Michael Tracy]

I don't, I don't buy that really.

[Periel]

Okay, let's see if, if Massey mentions this Mossad thing in the future. But go ahead. You know, the files exist. There are some files there.

[Michael Tracy]

This is not a hoax.

[Periel]

I don't think it implicates the President. I think it would be very embarrassing.

[Michael Tracy]

For the rich and powerful in this country and in other countries. Let's get it out there. This may even implicate some of our allies, some foreign intelligence, for instance. Israel is. I am the only one who's got the spine to walk the down there to the floor of the House and introduce this. The question is why didn't 434 other members do this and why are people.

[Periel]

Reluctant to get this out?

[Michael Tracy]

Now I'm not going to claim that. I know you don't, you don't have to. I don't. I don't think that Massey is motivated by some Jewish thing. Okay, so. But that said, I think he's gone.

[Periel]

Off the deep end Israel thing. Well, the reason I think he is just, just about is because for to get these MAGA types to, to break ranks with Donald Trump there has to be something that, that is overwhelming that, that gravity. Gravity. The magnetic force between Trump and them. And the only thing I can think of that that these people value more than their relationship with Trump is there or that that has more weight with them is their hatred of Israel.

[Michael Tracy]

Okay, let's just bracket that. Let's just bracket that. Yeah, he understand my point. He's been targeted by AIPAC etc and other pro Israel groups. Yes, that's true. And that probably does have some crossover to why he's now invested in the Epstein thing. But I Think he's beclowning himself totally on the Epstein stuff. Like he just says stuff that's wildly sort of, I don't know, just exaggerated. And you know, he's punt. He's like sort of posturing as like somebody who's defending the survivors. And he's like saying, republican men, why am I, why am I only the Republican male member of Congress who's supporting the Republican women?

[Periel]

Because the people, look, look at Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah. Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mix.

[Periel]

Yeah. Marjorie Taylor Greene was another one of the super maga people. One of the few of them.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah.

[Periel]

Very anti Israel.

[Michael Tracy]

Okay, so.

[Periel]

And now she's, she's relevant here.

[Michael Tracy]

Okay, so I asked my question, right? My question is Virginia Roberts Giuffre, whom Bradley Edwards, who I'm directing the question to, represented for years. She had to recant her claims against alan Dershowitz in 2022 after accusing him for nearly a decade of having committed vile sex crimes against her as an underage girl. And she didn't just like vaguely accuse Alan Dershowitz. Right. If you go and like read the court documents, the deposition transcripts, etc. She described in graphic, lurid detail, she.

[Periel]

Talked about a tumescent naked man who wouldn't shut up about Israel.

[Michael Tracy]

Well, maybe she should have. That would have been more amusing. But it wasn't that funny. What she really did do, which was that she said that there were at least six occasions on which she had been sexually victimized by Dershowitz as a minority. And she described it all in lurid, graphic detail, such as, like his ejaculation habits. It was, you know, grotesque. And she was adamant that this happened to her. And then she recanted it. And Bradley Edwards was one of the lawyers representing her when she recanted it, so. Because at this press conference, and there was this, the press conference, there was like a survivors rally that happened right before it, also out front of the Capitol where Virginia Roberts Giuffre was being hailed as though she was some martyr. This like truth telling martyr. Like she was a saint. Like she's been beatified by the Catholic Church. It's like a civic or a secular beatify of her. And I'm sorry, there's hardly been anybody ever on earth who's been more of a chronic, like a proven chronic fabricator. And yet it was all being whitewashed. It was outrageous. And so I asked Bradley Edwards about this, right? And then they cut me off. Like the survivors recognized me because I had tried to ask some of them questions before. And they're all like, you know, murmuring amongst themselves. And they were telling Bradley Edwards, don't ask for this guy. Don't ask for this guy. And this guy said, we're not answering this question. And they cut me off. Right. So I said, okay, I mean, send.

[Periel]

Me that video so I can put it.

[Michael Tracy]

I'll send it to you. Yeah. And then, so they move on from me. Bradley Edwards points out another journalist to have her ask a question. But then Ro Khanna interjects. He comes to the podium, he addresses my question. I asked Ro Khanna a follow up. Next thing I know, Capitol Police are accosting me and they're telling me I have to leave. I'm like, wait, hold on a second. What do you mean I have to leave? I'm an invited member of the press. I'm invited by Roe Khan, who's running this press conference. I simply asked a question and they say, no, you're gonna be arrested if you don't come right now. So, you know, okay, at that point, I comply. I'm not gonna defy the police. So they throw me out. And then people send me videos afterwards because I didn't have my eye on every little thing here as it was going on in the moment. But then on the video, you clearly see Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has, as a member of Congress, has jurisdiction over the Capitol Police. The House of Representatives runs the Capitol Police. You could see her directing Capitol Police officers to throw him out, get him out of here, get him out. She's on video doing it. She's joining like this rabid mob of fake survivors.

[Periel]

But as a member of Congress, she doesn't have the.

[Michael Tracy]

She does.

[Periel]

She has authority.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah.

[Periel]

I mean, 435 people can order the police to do stuff.

[Michael Tracy]

I mean, if a member of, if a member of the House of Representatives tells a Capitol Police officer to do something, they will do it.

[Periel]

They will. But it's a legal authority. It doesn't matter. I'm just.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah. I mean, legally, the US House of Representatives is the, is the body, as a body that controls the Capitol Police. Right, right. So she, you know, if she tells a police officer to do something, they will do it.

[Periel]

Okay.

[Michael Tracy]

So that, then I'm thrown out. Right. And because, and it was, it was huge. I mean, it's because she and the so called survivors did not like the content of my question. I wasn't disruptive. I wasn't a trespasser. And so it's a First Amendment thing. I don't know if I'M going to pursue it, but, like, you know, and so that's why I was.

[Periel]

How many. How many of those women at the Survivor thing claim to have been underage victims of Jeffrey Epstein?

[Michael Tracy]

There were a handful. I mean, so you gotta. That's like one of the draws of this press conference was supposed to be that they were gonna debut new survivors, right. Who had never before given their quote unquote story. But they also trotted out other people who had been in the public record before. So, for example, there's this woman, Haley Robson. I think based on what I can see in the video, she was like the ringleader and telling Bradley Edwards, don't answer this guy, and basically have him thrown out. Because I did try to interview her before and she talked to me briefly, but she's reported to have been including, like, this woman, Julie K. Brown, who, like, wrote the Miami Herald series in 2018 that she says catalyzed the re. Prosecution federally of Epstein and caused a huge sensation. It sort of tied Epstein into MeToo and so forth. She says that Haley Robson was like the main. One of the main recruiters for Epstein in the Palm beach phase and told girls to lie about their ages and say they were 18.

[Periel]

We're already out of town when he gets to two things. The suicide.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah.

[Periel]

Now, as a matter of fact, you can look up. I'm in the Wall Street Journal for debunking something years ago about the study which claimed that Jeffrey Epstein did not commit suicide. Something about the breakage of his. And I don't even remember, but I actually looked into it at the time and Toronto ran it in the Wall Street Journal. So actually you could look that up. But at the time, I was very satisfied that there was no evidence that he was murdered.

[Michael Tracy]

So this might surprise you. Right. So this is the one area, uh. Oh, where I'm cut. Yeah. The Kane coming to pull me out.

[Periel]

You're just one of them. You're just a little bit less.

[Michael Tracy]

This is the one area where I'm less convinced that the, let's say, conspiratorial theories are unfounded because. So Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein, he's alive. He was Epstein's next of kin when he died in August of 2019, because Epstein didn't have a spouse, didn't have children, so he was the one who was brought in to run his affairs once he was deceased. And he seems like a measured person to me. He makes sure he makes a point to not make any claims that are beyond what he knows to be factual. And he's convinced that it's very unlikely that he committed suicide because of the injuries that he sustained.

[Periel]

Well, you know, you're onto something there, because I just saw that Jussie Smollett's brother insists that Jussie Smollett actually was a victim.

[Michael Tracy]

Okay, I'm not claiming that Epstein didn't kill himself, okay? I'm just saying my confidence interval is lower. And it doesn't have to be a. It doesn't have to be a Mossad conspiracy. It simply could have been that Epstein was known to. Was perceived to have been, at the time when he was in the federal jail facility in Manhattan to be the most notorious pedophile in American history. What happens to pedophiles when they're in prison? They get their ass kicked or killed. Okay. And so there was an inmate who was put into Epstein's cell as his cellmate for a while, who was known to be a very violent, former corrupt cop, who was being. Who had been charged with murder, multiple murders. And, you know, when I Thinking about this, I sort of surmised that if that guy was known by the street, was revealed to the street gang, and basically he was in that he didn't kill Epstein, he would have gotten his own ass kicked.

[Periel]

All I'm saying, this is important point I'm going to make. In my opinion, you're doing now exactly what you're faulting others for doing on different matters. In other words, you're creating a plausible narrative.

[Michael Tracy]

Right.

[Periel]

Without evidence.

[Michael Tracy]

No, I'll give it. No, I'm giving you evidence.

[Periel]

No, there's no. The evidence. As we see the video for which we have the. All the various people who. Who were there. He was on suicide watch. There was the autopsy there.

[Michael Tracy]

He wasn't on suicide watch at the time that he.

[Periel]

No, he had been. Meaning that it's not. Not outrageous that he would commit suicide.

[Michael Tracy]

But he claimed he didn't try to commit suicide. He claimed he was attacked. You got to go read the DOJ inspector general report from 2023, which, of course, Dale Cooper didn't read, okay, where it says that Epstein claimed when he was put on suicide watch, that he actually did not attempt to commit suicide, but he was attacked.

[Periel]

And then we have all that video of the door. And I know there's some problems because there's a reset in a minute, but you can see it's hard to imagine, even with that angle, that some murderer came in.

[Michael Tracy]

I don't know.

[Periel]

I'm just saying he was a bit guy. It would have Been noise. You'd have to pay off the guards. He would have to get out. He would have to do it all.

[Michael Tracy]

He didn't have money to pay off the guards.

[Periel]

The most plausible theory that I could find myself believing is that he paid the guards the other way.

[Michael Tracy]

Lower level, almost banal thing. It didn't have to be something he.

[Periel]

Could have committed suicide with the. With the guards.

[Michael Tracy]

Right.

[Periel]

To look the other.

[Michael Tracy]

Except Dershowitz says that even a chance.

[Periel]

Take it back.

[Michael Tracy]

No, but says that he thinks that if Epstein did commit suicide, it would have to have been with the assistance of the prison staff. Is that still crazy?

[Periel]

It's not so crazy. Except then the question is, well, how did he get the money? Like, how did he. How did.

[Michael Tracy]

He had a commissary.

[Periel]

Well, unless he has real cash with him and no inmates can.

[Michael Tracy]

Can fill their accounts with money. That's how they get like food and whatever. Right.

[Periel]

But then he's got to give the money to somebody.

[Michael Tracy]

I'm just saying. Okay. Yeah. I'm not asserting that I know conclusively one way or another.

[Periel]

Okay, let's watch.

[Michael Tracy]

I'm less conclusive.

[Periel]

Let's conclude. I. And, you know, I know you probably.

[Michael Tracy]

Hate Bill Barr, but Bill Barr, I was. I was. I was a founding member of the Bill Bar fan Club in 2019 when he was going after Robert Mueller. So the Mueller report.

[Periel]

Bill Barr was 100% sure. And then you have.

[Michael Tracy]

I don't think he said 100 sure. I read his book.

[Periel]

He said 100 sure. And then. All right, you have. What's his name? Dan Bongino and. Oh, please, no.

[Michael Tracy]

Which is two of the least credible people on earth, especially Bangino, except that.

[Periel]

They were all in on. And it's humiliated. Like. Like everybody who's. Everybody who's actually looked at it has come. Except for the one medical examiner who also said that OJ Couldn't have possibly killed Nicole Brown Simpson. Well, he's the only one. Let's watch. He started at the beginning of the video.

[Michael Tracy]

You actually create problems. Not when you're just a part of the. Right.

[Periel]

Yeah. And full screen it.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah.

[Periel]

And then this will be it. We got to go collapse. Waiting for me downstairs. Good. Or if you can't full screen it, it's okay. As long as we can hear. It's fine. It's fine. Just press play. Okay. Okay.

[Michael Tracy]

What's Whitney Webb's take on this?

[Periel]

I bet it's. It's.

[Michael Tracy]

She's probably. I mean, Whitney's research is so unbelievable. But by the way, I should say. Yeah. Before I go any further.

[Periel]

Yeah.

[Michael Tracy]

Whitney Webb has some strange conspiracy that she believes someone's trying to keep her from being on my show.

[Periel]

Interesting.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah. Whitney, I'll have you on the show. I just haven't reached out because I have thousands of people to go through that's busy. I would definitely do it, though. The idea that I wouldn't do it is incorrect and I apologize enormously. Autistic.

[Periel]

Well, there's a lot of this. She talks like this a lot. And she's just. The pentameter of her voice is very like this. And she goes.

[Michael Tracy]

She knows a lot. She knows a lot about things.

[Periel]

She goes, jeffrey Epstein, on the third.

[Michael Tracy]

Day in January 1996, he met with this guy, like. But she. With no notes. No notes. She's off the top of the head. Yeah. But she's really enormously amazing at research. She's an amazing researcher.

[Periel]

She, like, has compiled the data.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah, no, she definitely has. And how they kill all those people in Germany. Nobody's whacked her yet. She's somewhere in South America, I think. Good move.

[Periel]

Yeah. Smart.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah, I guess.

[Periel]

Yeah.

[Michael Tracy]

But I mean, how much resources does she have to protect herself?

[Periel]

One of the reasons I think people.

[Michael Tracy]

Like her end up being safe is she writes these very big, very studious books that no one in America reads.

[Periel]

That.

[Michael Tracy]

True. Where no one. It's not a threat. It's not a threat. It doesn't go mainstream. It's not a threat. Now these big Hollywood types that go, I'm going to blow the whistle on whatever the hell's going on, they go, bye, bye.

[Periel]

You know what I mean?

[Michael Tracy]

Or mainstream journalist who's like, I'm going to write an article about something and you know it's going to lead to a congressional investigation.

[Periel]

Yeah. I realize this is when you. This wasn't the clip that I wanted. So just tell us about Whitney Webb and then we'll go, Tim.

[Michael Tracy]

Joe, please. Tim. Dylan, you're one of the very few comedians I have ever found funny. I am so fed up with all these failed comedians who now think that they need to have a political podcast. But you are actually funny. Funny. Whitney Webb is a fantasist. She's a charlatan. She doesn't engage with rational criticism. She just does this spurious dot connecting thing where she's like a motor mouth where she'll throw out just an avalanche of seemingly plausible facts and then just invite everybody to draw the most salacious possible inference. She makes up some of those facts. Like, I found out because everybody was bombarding me with demands that I need to look into Whitney Webb. I was a huge coward if I did not engage with Whitney Webb's work. So finally I said, fine, I'll do it. And so like the first part, I read some of her atrocious book, One Nation Under Blackmail, which is like ridiculously idiotic.

[Periel]

Oh, she's the one who wrote two volumes.

[Michael Tracy]

Yeah, they say it's a two volume book, but I don't know, it's just the same book essentially. And it's just a whole, you know, it's just a load of nut crap. And they say, oh, it's this amazing research. Okay, like what's so what, what, what research is amazing? Tim, spell it out for us. Give us a concrete example of what research you find amazing. Because I don't find any of her research amazing. And in fact her research methodology is beyond dubious because she doesn't bother to double check anything that Vicky Ward quote we were talking about with Acosta, she cites that in her book on the literal first pages of her whole impetus for investigating these intelligence ties or blackmail ties regarding Epstein. And she clearly did not ever investigate the provenance or reliability of that quote. She just like wanted to confirm her bias. She made up on Brianna Joy Gray's podcast this idea that Donald Trump, in concert potentially with Jeffrey Epstein, had a guy murdered in prison. So to make sure that this guy could not incriminate Trump in a child sex trafficking operation was just made up. The guy didn't even die in prison.

[Periel]

This is unfortunate the way a lot of people operate. This is the way the people who claim that Russiagate was real were operating. This is the way. You don't have to. This is the way a lot of people like Scott Horton operate when it comes to the whole Ukraine, Russia thing and their claims about, you know, the, the west organized a coup in Ukraine and Maidan and you know, I mean, Victoria Newland and all that stuff. They, they. It's not about whether these things can or can't be true. It's that they'll take some quote from somewhere. They won't tell us at all, give us any, any idea about how reliable it is or isn't. They will just as with this Professional responsibility, an office of Professional Responsibility report, doj. They will keep from us on purpose.

[Michael Tracy]

Anyone even aware of it? Yes, they're so cloistered in my opaque that they literally are not even aware of any countervailing evidence.

[Periel]

That's what, for instance, that's what they do like with this we're going to end now. But like this Nolan, this. This hugely significant Nolan phone call that the Kremlin, that Putin released, Web also.

[Michael Tracy]

Just makes stuff up, up. It's not that she even just spuriously dot connects facts. She also makes up facts. And so does Daryl Cooper, who's a giant crybaby.

[Periel]

What they all do is leave out.

[Michael Tracy]

Contrary evidence and they're not doing legitimate research. So when they hail her supposedly, like, unparalleled research abilities, it's a total crock.

[Periel]

They're not journalists. All right, but Michael Tracy is a journalist. I believe that you will be. I believe that you will be vindicated here, except on your incautious openness to the idea that Epstein actually killed himself.

[Michael Tracy]

I call it epistemic humility.

[Periel]

Epistemic humility. Okay. And we're very happy to have you. You should become a regular guest because.

[Michael Tracy]

Let's do it.

[Periel]

We have a lot. We should. We should argue about Israel. We'll see what happens, and then that'll be the last time you're.

[Michael Tracy]

You already got me in trouble. Now you want to argue about Israel?

[Periel]

So we're gonna go. Perry. All you have any.

[Michael Tracy]

No, I. I would like firm to come back. And as a woman, were you offended by anything tonight? Just your positions on Israel.

[Periel]

She's the wrong one.

[Michael Tracy]

You know, when I went to Israel for the first time ever after October 7th, I had Israelis running up to me congratulating me for making aaliyah because they assumed that I was.

[Periel]

Well, what's his name? Arthur Kwan Lee. You know who he is? He's name Rings the artist. The anti Semitic artist who did Daryl Cooper's logo.

[Michael Tracy]

Oh, yeah, you sent me something about that.

[Periel]

Yeah.

[Michael Tracy]

Who the hell knows?

[Periel]

But he put a picture of you and he assumed you were Jewish. And he. And he. He made a remark about. Look at him.

[Michael Tracy]

Like I missed this. You got to say, I always tell people who assume I'm Jewish and, like, try to impute something nefarious to me on that basis. I tell him I'm honored. I wish I was Jewish because my IQ would be a few points higher at least.

[Periel]

All right, so thank. Thank you. Michael. Remember to call Nancy back. Steve, any comments? Steve? Steve Wall. I think we covered it. I think you're covered. Okay. Good night, everybody.