Podcast Summary:

The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table
Episode: Is NYC Traffic Back? Data Gurus on the NYC Congestion Pricing Experiment
Air Date: September 26, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the controversial issue of New York City's congestion pricing—a policy implemented in early 2025 aimed at reducing traffic in Manhattan by charging vehicles entering the busiest zones. Host Noam Dworman and co-host Dan Natterman convene with "data gurus" Benjamin and Joshua Moshes, the brothers behind the influential Congestion Pricing Tracker website, to answer the burning question: Is NYC traffic really back to pre-pricing levels? The conversation is rich with data debate, personal anecdotes, policy skepticism, and candid humor.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening Anecdotes: "Traffic’s Back" (00:00–04:30)

• Noam Dworman describes a recent, painfully slow drive on the West Side Highway as evidence that "old school New York City traffic" has returned, despite congestion pricing.
• He admits a previous podcast theory about evening rush hour being improved was flawed due to a misunderstanding of when the toll applies.

Noam (01:50):
"Look at that traffic. That’s old school New York City traffic. There was no accident. No road work. That was the traffic… it made the traffic permanently slower."

2. Meet the Data Gurus (04:31–06:28)

• Introduction to Benjamin and Joshua Moshes, known for their independent data tracking project on NYC congestion. Benjamin is the older brother, an economics student from Brown. Joshua is a coding and data specialist from Northeastern.
• Their website, congestion-pricing-tracker.com, is highlighted as one of the only transparent sources for real-world congestion data.

3. Initial Findings: Did Congestion Pricing Work? (06:29–12:15)

• The Moshes explain their neutral, data-driven approach. Early data after congestion pricing began (January 2025) showed a sharp drop in traffic entering Manhattan, especially via bridges and tunnels—from New Jersey, Brooklyn, etc.
• Over time, however, average travel times have largely returned to pre-pricing levels, with only marginal (1–3 minute) improvements on many routes.
• Minor traffic improvements in Manhattan; small increases in "spillover" traffic just outside the congestion zone.

Noam (10:08):
"Three minute savings is not anybody’s idea of a significant difference… If you had said we're going to charge everybody nine bucks so that we can save three minutes, people would say, ‘You can’t…’"

4. Data Nuance: Trends, Outliers, and The Weekend Problem (12:16–16:45)

• Some significant time savings occasionally appear, but are inconsistent and often impacted by holidays or atypical traffic days.
• On weekends, particularly Sundays, traffic from New Jersey into Manhattan more than doubles (37 to 15 minutes reported at the Holland Tunnel), worrying business owners reliant on leisure visitors.
• Moshes note businesses feared major impacts, but available data so far doesn’t conclusively show huge negative effects—yet "it’s hard to untangle" causes (congestion pricing vs. other post-pandemic trends).

Benjamin (15:08):
"From the data that is pullable about, like, how many cars are parking... businesses have not been impacted as much as people maybe have thought originally."

5. The Business and Policy Downside (16:46–21:22)

• Noam argues that even if data doesn’t show catastrophic drops, "common sense" says tougher car access and longer times hurt businesses, especially New York’s unique vibrancy and nightlife.
• Skepticism prevails that revenue will actually be used effectively (e.g. to fix subways).

Noam (18:46):
"New York survives and could die without its special place as the center of the world... If we are creating a disincentive for people to do that... we are risking all the marbles."

6. Broader Justifications and Critiques (21:23–26:21)

• Dan Natterman reminds listeners that congestion pricing was also pitched as a measure to improve pollution, reduce traffic deaths, and enhance pedestrian experience.
• Debate about the fairness for those who must drive—such as workers in "transit deserts," people with disabilities, elderly commuters—and whether the price ($9, soon to rise) is excessive.

Noam (20:14):
"There’s all sorts of reasons [people] have to pay this $200 a month tax. When they used to debate a 50 cent toll on the Brooklyn Bridge... all of a sudden in one fell suit, 'ah, give ‘em nine bucks a day…’"

7. Comparative Data: NYC vs. Other Cities, and Data Gaps (23:54–29:57)

• The Moshes explain they compared NYC traffic to Boston and Chicago to control for nationwide trends. NYC saw a marginally bigger drop after pricing started, but effect sizes are small.
• Historical data is currently missing on their site due to technical limitations, but the brothers express a willingness to dive deeper if funded.

Benjamin (23:54):
"We were comparing traffic in New York to Boston and Chicago...traffic went down a little more [in NYC]... even if it wasn’t very large."

8. "I Wish You’d Crunch The Numbers!" Listener Demand for Clarity (29:57–34:34)

• Noam urges the Moshes to publish a summary or press release—"Is traffic back, or not?"— because no government agency is clearly reporting these findings.
• The brothers describe the grassroots, nearly accidental start of their project: a blend of economics thesis-turned-public-service and a happy twist when media and city leaders started taking notice.

9. Behind the Scenes: Building the Tracker & Media Hype (34:35–38:27)

• The process of scraping, visualizing, and publishing traffic data is explained, including the viral response (over 100,000 impressions day one, NYT and others reaching out).
• Both had jitters about being accurate, given the weight their data suddenly carried.

Joshua (36:47):
"The first 24 hours were crazy... We got an email from the New York Times and we stayed up till 4 or 5am just making sure everything was right."

10. Will Congestion Pricing Ever End? (39:09–40:26)

• Hosts are deeply skeptical that the city will ever repeal the charges now that the revenue is coming in, even if traffic returns.
• Moshes clarify that rates are set to rise by law, up to $15 in coming years unless changed.

Noam (39:19):
"As soon as there's a stream of money, they start spending it... I don't think they'll ever [walk it back]."
Benjamin (40:03):
"There's a clause that after three years, the price will rise to 12, and after... 15..."

11. Anecdotes: Commuter Woes and Fixes (41:25–44:37)

• Panelists commiserate over current traffic woes, crosstown gridlock, blocked lanes, and double parking.
• Tongue-in-cheek suggestions: super-high-priced crosstown lanes for the wealthy, and surge pricing like Uber. "Let millionaires pay $30–$40 for crosstown trips."

12. The Moshes’ Origin Story and Family Background (45:03–47:00)

• Raised in the Boston area, children of Russian immigrants. Both are bilingual (Russian/English).
• Personal experiences shape their working dynamic and commitment to neutral data analysis.

13. On Coding, AI, and Future Careers (47:01–50:32)

• Joshua reflects on the limitations of AI coding and why real developers still matter. The discussion shifts to the broader social impact of AI, comparing it with the irreplaceable human touch in comedy.

Joshua (47:04):
"AI can do many things, but I think there’s still a lot of stuff it can’t do and just isn’t good enough."

14. A (Funny) Lesson in Old School Internet Hacking (50:33–54:20)

• Noam recounts a decades-old "gray hat" story: how he used dial-up modems and macro software to rig online votes and win "Best Happy Hour" for his bar.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Noam (10:08):
  "Three minute savings is not anybody’s idea of a significant difference."

• Dan (21:22):
  "There’s more to it than that." (regarding rationales for congestion pricing)

• Joshua (36:47):
  "We stayed up till 4 or 5am just making sure everything was right."

• Benjamin (40:03):
  "There's already a planned rise; after three years, the price will rise to 12, then to 15..."

Notable Timestamps

• 00:00–04:30 — Noam's West Side Highway traffic anecdote sets the stage.
• 06:29–12:15 — Moshes explain early drops in traffic after pricing, but describe return to "normal."
• 15:01–16:45 — Weekend data: Sunday traffic more than doubles, sparking business concerns.
• 23:54–29:57 — Value/limits of tracking, calls for deeper analysis, plus website backstory.
• 39:09–40:26 — Debate on whether congestion pricing could ever be reversed, legal automatic increases.
• 41:25–44:37 — Panel discusses possible fixes and trade humor about "bidding for lanes."
• 47:01–50:32 — Discussion on the replacement of coders by AI.
• 50:33–54:20 — Noam's legendary “happy hour vote-hacking” story.

Tone and Language

The conversation is lively, sharp-witted, and at times skeptical but never mean-spirited. Noam drives prodding, often pointed questions with both data-minded seriousness and tongue-in-cheek commentary; Dan interjects with dry humor and alternative perspectives; the Moshes brothers are analytic and measured, cautious not to overstate their findings or take strong political stances.

Takeaways for Listeners

• The Data Suggests:
  Any initial large decrease in citywide traffic due to congestion pricing dissipated quickly; current commute times are back to pre-policy norms for most routes.
• Policy Debate:
  While minor time savings and reduced vehicle entries are measurable, the cost burden and business impact are contentious and unresolved.
• Transparency in Data:
  The lack of clear, updated, and accessible data from the city is why the Moshes’ tracker has proven popular—with even policymakers and media referencing it.
• Room for Improvement:
  Ideas floated include dynamic surge pricing, targeted crosstown charges, and more nuanced approaches—none currently on the table.

Further Info

• For in-depth data:
  Visit congestion-pricing-tracker.com
• Contact the show:
  podcast@comedycellar.com

This episode offers a definitive, data-literate—yet entertaining—look at New York’s congestion experiment, its failings, and what’s (not) next.