Live from the Table: Knock-down Drag-out Debate on Congestion Pricing with Expert Kathryn Wylde

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Live from the Table: Knock-down Drag-out Debate on Congestion Pricing with Expert Kathryn Wylde"

Podcast: The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table
Date: March 6, 2025
Host(s): Dan Natterman, Noam Dworman, Perry El Aschenbrand
Guest: Kathryn Wylde, President and CEO of the Partnership for New York City
Main Theme:
A spirited, deeply detailed debate on New York City’s congestion pricing scheme—its goals, fairness, and impact—pitting skeptic club owner Noam Dworman against proponent Kathryn Wylde, with frequent crossfire, real-life anecdotes, and sharp comedy edge throughout.

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Episode Overview

The episode stages a vigorous, often combative discussion around Manhattan’s congestion pricing: a new policy that charges drivers entering Manhattan below 60th street, aiming to decrease traffic and generate funds for public transport. Host Noam Dworman is a relentless critic, arguing it punishes working- and middle-class commuters and benefits the wealthy, while Kathryn Wylde offers the economic rationale and city-planning defense. The debate touches statistics, fairness, public safety, restaurant and Broadway economics, mass transit deserts, and the broader philosophy of taxation versus user fees.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Kathryn Wylde’s Background and Economic Approach

• Wylde explains her longstanding work with the Partnership for New York City, focusing on post-fiscal crisis recovery and fostering NYC's innovation economy.
• Reflects on lost Amazon HQ2 deal, NYC's evolution as a tech hub: “We’re second only to Silicon Valley… but we are an international capital of innovation.” [05:31]

2. The Theory and Purpose of Congestion Pricing

• Wylde: The fee is intended to “provide people with more options, and to invest in a better transit system” [13:39].
• Dworman challenges the policy’s rationale — “Isn’t it just pricing the poor and working class off the roads, so the rich save time?” [08:34]
• Wylde rebuts: “Over 90% of people commuting into Manhattan don’t drive or park, they rely on public transit” [09:09].
• Claims major revenue will come from trucks, and congestion pricing is necessary to fund crucial mass transit upgrades.

3. Socioeconomic Fairness and Anecdotal Pushback

• Dworman presents detailed examples: older workers, musicians, single moms, healthcare workers—often from transit deserts—who rely on their cars and park on the street, not in expensive garages. [12:00]
• Wylde claims driving is often a matter of "habit" and that improved public transit and buses will address these access gaps.
• Dworman pushes back: “But what year will those transit improvements actually reach these neighborhoods?” [13:50]
• Wylde: Upgrades are “constantly coming online,” but timelines are vague; new investments are ongoing. [15:05]

4. Data Battle: Impact on Broadway, Restaurants, and Ridership

• Discussion of impact on weekend business traffic from NJ, using tunnel stats and restaurant reservation data.
• Wylde: “Broadway attendance has gone up 21%.” [17:44]
• Dworman disputes stats: “That’s not true...I have the stats…” [17:52]
  • Details year-over-year increases/decreases, positing the pandemic may explain changes more than pricing.
• Wylde: “Theater owners are satisfied. Business is up… foot traffic is up; cabs are up 10%…” [23:03]
• Dworman persists: “My reservations are down while restaurants in Boston are up even more.” [27:46]
• Both agree congestion pricing’s true economic impact remains hard to isolate from other trends [29:12].

5. The Affordability Crisis and Alternatives

• Wylde: NYC is now the 3rd most expensive city in the world, with high costs stemming from taxes, fares, and now fees. “The problem is…the choice was adding a toll…or raising fares more or adding yet another tax.” [32:07]
• Dworman: “How do other U.S. cities manage without congestion pricing? We’re the richest city…” [33:25]
• Wylde: "We have a 21%+ poverty rate…We are not the richest city." [33:49]

6. Public Safety & Mass Transit Quality

• Dworman asserts that the city must first ensure public transit is clean and safe — recounts several employee assaults, shows violent NYC subway videos, and features a TikTok commentary (“Y’all are not gonna get me to take the train. It’s dangerous… You can get on the train and lose your life just going to work…”) [45:10]
• Wylde: “I take the subway all the time,” and insists crime is falling, with increased cameras and police presence [35:03, 57:44]
• Dworman counters, “The lives of decision-makers are totally different than those of working-class commuters… you wouldn’t make your daughter ride these subways at night.” [35:03]

7. The Redistribution Question and Long-Term Vision

• Dworman cites James Surowiecki: "The wealthier you are, the easier it is to trade money for time. Poorer people can avoid the toll by not driving—but that doesn't make them better off… Any fair plan must redistribute the money to help them." [58:00]
• Wylde insists: revenues are legally dedicated to MTA upgrades, with first funds going to more buses in southeast Queens [59:10, 60:39]

8. Policy Design Critiques

• Why does the fee apply all night? Why so broadly? Dworman: “This is just a money grab… to make revenue, not reduce congestion at 11PM.” [69:46, 70:23]
• Wylde: “Yes, revenues matter, but the fee is lower at night. Trucks are incentivized to deliver overnight… and it maintains funding for transit improvements.” [70:23]

9. Proving Success and Willingness to Walk Back

• Dworman: “What statistical measures would make you agree this isn’t working?” [62:13]
• Wylde: “If traffic gets worse,” conceding that, so far, congestion pricing is reducing traffic, but she was initially concerned $9 might not suffice. [62:27]
• Host Dan: If data eventually show unintended consequences, will the city reverse course? Dworman is skeptical: “They’ll never undo it.” [52:51]
• Both agree New York has a major cost and affordability problem, and the city is reaching a point where new revenues must come from somewhere — though neither side concedes on principle.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Fairness:
  • Noam Dworman (08:34): “The theory of congestion pricing… is to price the poor people and working class people off the roads so that we who can afford it… can get to work faster… that out of the gate repulses me.”
  • Kathryn Wylde (13:39): “It is a function of habit, and … not having good enough transit… The reason for raising the toll is to pay for a system that is more adequate.”
• On Data and Evidence:
  • Wylde (23:03): “Pedestrian foot traffic in all the business Improvement Districts is up… after congestion pricing.”
  • Dworman (27:46): “If you look at Open Table stats, Boston’s business is up even more, without congestion pricing… You have to control for things…”
• On Transit Deserts:
  • Dworman (14:16): “These are the areas in New York… 15 minutes or more from a subway station. All these people drive… What are they supposed to do?”
• On Public Safety:
  • Dworman (35:03): “The people we are pricing off… we want them to take subways. I would never take a subway… at night… This is… different than the people I’m referring to.”
  • Wylde (35:03): “I take the subway all the time… in Brooklyn, day and night.”
• On Policy Philosophy:
  • Wylde (39:54): “To have that transit system, we have to raise the funds to build it out.”
  • Dworman (49:04): “That’s because they don’t care about the people who are getting out of their way… this is exactly what I’m saying.”
• On Policy Outcome:
  • Wylde (51:53): “Buses are moving substantially.”
  • Dworman (53:01): “You were told over and over: it’s working in London… now that London faded as an example…”
• On Real-life Impact:
  • TikTok quote (45:10): “You literally can get on the train and lose your life just going to work… New York City, y’all gotta get it together.”
• On Trade-offs and Long Timelines:
  • Dworman (61:38): “Phase Two [2nd Ave subway] planned to be finished by 2032… The people you’re talking about are going to be old by then. They’re going to suffer.”
  • Wylde (66:48): “We have express buses. I have one in front of my house… These improvements are happening now.”

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Wylde’s background: [02:17-06:00]
• Noam’s moral critique of congestion pricing: [07:44-10:30]
• Arguments about who really drives into Manhattan and who is affected: [12:00-16:50]
• Data/statistics duel (Broadway, restaurants): [17:37-30:11]
• Public safety and transit quality debate: [34:22-38:14]
• TikTok commuter’s real-life pushback: [45:10-46:35]
• Policy design (overnight charges, business impact): [69:46-70:43]
• Endgame: Will the city walk it back if data don’t support it? [62:13-63:10]

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Tone & Final Thoughts

• The episode is combative, funny, and intellectually energizing, mixing spreadsheet metrics, fiery anecdotes, and high-level policy theory—with both host and guest showing flashes of exasperation, wit, and empathy.
• Wylde stands firm that “congestion pricing is for the people who don’t have the resources to drive into Manhattan every day” [65:39]; Dworman insists those people “won’t see relief for decades, if ever” [61:38, 66:11].
• Both agree the city is at a crossroads of affordability and infrastructure decay, but disagree heatedly on whether congestion pricing is fair, effective—or a ‘money grab’ that only deepens urban divides.

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Summary Takeaway:
This episode offers a raw, unfiltered look at one of New York’s hottest controversies, pitting quality-of-life arguments against cold economics, and connecting city planning to on-the-ground realities for all classes of New Yorkers. A must-listen for anyone interested in urban policy, social justice, and (of course) the many shades of New York City opinion.

Transcript

[A]

This is live from the Table, the official podcast of the world famous Comedy Cellar. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Available on YouTube and available on demand on Sirius Satellite Radio. This is Dan Natterman, comedy seller, comedian. I'm here with Noam Dorman, owner of the comedy seller, the ever expanding comedy seller here with Perry Al Aschenbrand.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Before I introduce our guest, I would just like to say that, you know, we often discuss Israel and Ukraine on this podcast and people often ask me, dan, this is the Comedy Seller podcast. Do you ever actually discuss congestion pricing? And yes, we do. We have today with us Katherine Wilde, president and CEO of the Partnership for New York City, a nonprofit organization whose members are global business leaders and the city's major employers. The Partnership is the primary liaison between business and local government, providing private sector expertise and resources to public agencies and programs. Please welcome Katherine Wild to our podcast.

[C]

Hi.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

And Noam. I should warn you that Noam is a ferocious opponent of congestion pricing. Don't take anything personally.

[C]

I've been saying to people lately that October 7th bothers me, but congestion pricing really gets under. I mean, so. And you know, I've as. We're always like staggering when we have our guests on. I understand that may. I mean, I don't know what's gonna happen with the legal challenge, but I understand that maybe the ship has sailed on congestion pricing. And I will have to admit that although I feel I've never been more right about anything in my life, it's tough to get anybody to agree with me on this issue. But I saw you variously online and you seem like a very bright and not, you know, some beatnik hippie that hates cars or something like that. So I said, well, this is, this is the kind of woman that I like to speak to, to find out where I'm going wrong on congestion pricing. So welcome to the show.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

And before I get to that, Dan, you know, did it very quickly, but you have, you have a very impressive resume and a life of accomplishments. So tell, just tell everybody, you know, what, what the various things you've done in your time.

[B]

Well, the Partnership was started after the city's fiscal crisis at the end of the 1970s, and I went to work there in 1981.

[C]

Ford to New York, what was it?

[A]

Drop dead.

[C]

Drop dead.

[B]

Drop dead or to New York, Drop dead. And we feel a little bit about that same way today. Trump to New York. We're not sure, but hopefully it's not drop dead. Only drop dead. Congestion pricing. So I have been there we first worked on rebuild affordable housing in the neighborhoods of the city that had burned down during the 1970s and 80s. And then we have worked on a series of efforts to bring on the new economy, the innovation economy, helping build Silicon Alley in New York City.

[C]

You were against throwing Amazon out of.

[B]

We were very much for Amazon bringing its HQ2 headquarters here to Long Island City. We were disappointed when they left, but today you can't beat New York. Today Amazon is probably the largest private sector employer in New York. So they grew here despite themselves.

[C]

AOC must be really bothered by that.

[A]

What presence do they have here if not their headquarters?

[B]

Well, they have huge operations, their AWS activities are here, that's their web servers and stuff. And obviously we are the largest market in the country. And so their whole marketing system, e commerce system, deliveries, etc are here. So they've got a lot of people, they're very important contributor to the city. So. And so they also have a store in soho. Right? Well they, they do have stores and local drop off spots but they're very important employers. So.

[C]

But it was terrible that this headquarters or it was gonna be the only headquarters, but one of their.

[B]

It was a very important signal to bring one of the west coast big tech companies to have their headquarters come back to New York or come to New York. And so we were disappointed to lose it. But as I say, things work out for the best.

[C]

This is. And we'll get to congestion pricing. This is always something, a problem with the. It's human nature, but I think it's the liberal mind, but it's human nature in general, which is that the future is gonna happen somewhere and if it doesn't happen here, it's gonna happen somewhere else. And boy, when you wake up and find. I used to feel this way about when they stopped the space program. It's like, yeah, you think you don't need it, wait till China lands on Mars. And you say to oh, that used to be America that did that. Wait till, you know, Raleigh somewhere in the south becomes the major hub for Amazon. You say, oh, used to be there was no place that would have been but New York City. And that is how things change because nothing stays the same. So I just thought it was colossally stupid to not want to always have the most important new industries in New York if you can have them. I couldn't understand. You probably agree, totally agree.

[B]

But in fact, as I say, it has worked out because we now have. We're second only to Silicon Valley in California in terms of the number of Start startups and we're in fact growing, we're outpacing them in terms of growth by far. So we are an international capital of innovation. That's happened in the last 20 years. Thank you Michael Bloomberg for kicking this all off and insisting that we had to build an entrepreneurial bottoms up economy, just not just our corporate top down economy.

[C]

But you know, you'll look if what you're saying is that we, despite ourselves, it kind of worked out. Even though it's not quite the same as being centered in New York, there's a certain cachet to, you know, having.

[B]

This is like we want to be a headquarters city. I don't know if you know, OpenAI just moved 400 people into the Puck building and they're.

[A]

It's an old building, is it not?

[B]

It is an old building, but.

[A]

So as brand new high tech company in an old building, that seems a bit odd.

[B]

Odd? No.

[A]

Well, you know, you would think they want the most splashiest, newest high tech building that they could.

[B]

Well, it's in a neighborhood that is full of young tech people and I think that might have something to do with it.

[C]

Yeah. Anyway, so anyway, we succeeded despite ourselves, but our luck could run out. It doesn't have to be. And hopefully Bloomberg understood this. Okay, congestion pricing. So let me start from the beginning. Why I think it's awful. And by the way, I make a very good living. I live in the suburbs, I drive to work every day. It has been awesome.

[B]

Thank you very much.

[C]

So we argue about Israel a lot on the show. So what I often say is that as opposed to Israel where I'm very connected and emotional about and viscerally, these are my people in Israel, my parents. So I would have to understand that I have an emotional stake in that issue. That could cloud my judgment. I have no emotional stake in this congestion pricing whatsoever. On the contrary, if they do outlaw it or revoke it and then I start having longer commutes again, I am going to miss these longer commutes. I'm not, however.

[B]

So what do you object to?

[C]

Yeah, I'm going to say so number.

[A]

One, you have an emotional stake in wanting to be right at this point. You've invested so much energy into lambasting congestion.

[B]

You are so correct. The people, they're sneaking around saying I'm embarrassed that I opposed congestion pricing and it's working because everybody said, you know, people are anti taxes. The reason you oppose congestion pricing. Everybody opposes congestion pricing. It's another toll, another tax. The city's already let me Tell you why. But. But in fact, this is one of those taxes where you get something for it. You're paying to move faster to save time. I mean, what's the most important thing in your life? Isn't it your time?

[C]

Okay, first, I mean, isn't it your time? It's my money.

[B]

Well, spend it.

[C]

No. So first of all, the theory of congestion pricing, as I understand it, is to price the poor people and working class people off the roads so that we who can afford it, as you say, who value our time, can get to work faster. Bottom line. And that out of the gate repulses me now. That's correct. Right. This wouldn't work if we could not use the fact that people can't afford this anymore to get them off the road.

[B]

What percentage poor people do you think are driving into Manhattan and paying for parking $50 a day? What percentage of the people to Manhattan, the commuters, every day, what percentage do you think are not depending on public transit? Our subways, our buses, who are sitting in traffic on buses?

[C]

Hold on, I will answer any. I'm not gonna duck any questions. You'll see. But just as I thought, you were.

[B]

The one asking me questions.

[C]

But as. No, you're asking me questions. You said what percentage. But as a threshold matter, I am correct.

[B]

I'm telling you it's over 90%.

[C]

Okay, but as a threshold matter, there is a principle here that all the benefits are gonna come at the expense of the people who we're gonna price off the road.

[B]

Oh, no, the benefits. All the capital, how we get taxed by these tolls is going into improving our subway and bus commuter rail system.

[C]

Talking about the benefit of luck.

[B]

And that's where the working people are.

[C]

You said time is the most important thing. We're gonna save time.

[B]

And buses will move faster. They will save time.

[C]

Okay, well, let's just stick to one thing at a time. Am I wrong that the heart of the matter here is to price certain people off the roads?

[B]

It is to give people options.

[C]

Okay, but obviously we couldn't. Nobody would have expected congestion pricing. Congestion pricing only was believed that it was going to work because we calculated that a certain number of people will be priced off the roads, otherwise the traffic doesn't clear up.

[B]

Well, first of all, a large part of the revenues are coming from trucks, so it's delivery vehicles.

[C]

Why is traffic moving more quickly?

[B]

Why is traffic. Because we've taken 3 million cars off the road and trucks off.

[C]

Did they go off voluntarily? They went off because they couldn't afford It.

[B]

Yes, yes. Absolutely. Voluntarily. Absolutely voluntarily. If they can afford to drive into Manhattan and pay $50 to park, first.

[C]

Of all, that's a myth. They're not paying $50 to park.

[B]

They're not?

[C]

No. Okay.

[B]

Where do you park?

[C]

Okay, I have. This is the thing.

[B]

And you have a parking placard like the government employees.

[C]

Hold on. With all due respect, I know a lot of people, and Tiana, actually, our engineer, told me this, too. So this is a story. Give an example. In my own life, Well, I have a woman who works for me. These are just vignettes who's 79 years old. She lives in the Bronx. She has to take a bus from her apartment to the closest subway station. She drives into the city at night. I mean, she has no choice. I have to give her, obviously, a raise for her to be able to afford it. She can't afford another couple thousand dollars a year in after tax money. My wife.

[B]

Where does she park?

[C]

She parks in. Well, she was parking on the street. You can just park on the street. In the Village, I have another musician, employee, musician, not for long. Has to lug his big keyboard to work every night. Not convenient to walk to the subway. He lives not near a subway. He drives in. He parks on the street. Everybody I know who drives parks on the street. My wife used to work in the hospital. She was a single mom. She dropped her kid off at school, go to work at the hospital. The hospital has parking for the nurses and techs and all that stuff. Or they provide them, which they pay for. Whatever. But whatever it is, it's part of their.

[B]

The nurses pay for.

[C]

Maybe they do. I don't know. Maybe they pay for, maybe they don't. But this was her. So she'd go and park, then she would go to pick up her son at after school daycare, then she'd go do some shopping. She lived in Staten Island. There's no. There's no subways anywhere near. I can tell you these stories all day long. People who work for me. And the principle is to get these people off the roads. Now, I'll tell you that. Obviously, driving a car with the insurance and the cost of the car and parking and tolls is already quite expensive. So if it was something that was not very important for these people to already have been doing, they would have stopped already.

[B]

That's a fallacy.

[C]

Well, they.

[B]

That is a fallacy. It is a function of habit, and it's a function of, in some cases, not having a good enough public transit system so they feel safe Comfortable and reliable.

[C]

Provide them with that.

[B]

The reason for raising the toll is to pay for a transportation system that is more adequate.

[C]

What year, what year do you project that transit system will. Will come online?

[B]

It's constantly coming online. When do you think right now they're buying.

[C]

When do you think the people I know who live. Can you bring up that slide of the transportation deserts? Let's bring this from the New York Times. When do you think the people who live in the Bronx, elderly people, all sorts of people, can you make it big? Will have a clean, safe subway two or three blocks from their house? This is from the New York Times.

[B]

Well, many do right now.

[C]

These are the areas in New York, the pink areas. 15 minutes or more. And some of them are quite a bit more from a subway station. Now, all these people drive. What's to be? What are they supposed to do?

[B]

Staten island has a good case to make and breezy points.

[C]

Queens, Brooklyn. Look at the map. All over the place.

[B]

No, no, no. Those are not transit deserts.

[C]

Well, this is according to the New York Times.

[B]

Those are where you don't have the close proximity to a subway. But they all have buses. They. We've looked at the.

[C]

But if time is. Time is so valuable, you gotta take a bus to the subway, to the this and then from wherever you land, you could end up paying much more time.

[B]

And we do need to improve our transit system, which is why we're raising money.

[C]

Just how long will it take to have that?

[B]

I'll give you an example, right.

[C]

Why can't you ask me when. If somebody lives in Staten island or any of these transport. When.

[B]

Why did you have me on? If you're the expert, I'm ask.

[C]

I'm not. If I had for the expert, I tell you how long it'll be. I'm asking you to tell me will it be 10 years, 15 years, 20 years?

[B]

When it's happening every day and every day that we're not raising funds and supporting the mta, we're setting ourselves backwards, which we did for a number of years. And I don't know when you started riding the subway, but I started in the 1960s and it wasn't very pleasant. It's gotten a lot better since then. But that's because we've invested and we've invested 44% of the revenues for the transit system come from taxes on business and real estate.

[C]

Let me ask.

[B]

Comes from the fares that people pay, which now go up on a regular basis every few years. And those are the low income working people. That really needs our support. And finally, only 13% prior to congestion pricing, only 13% was coming from the tolls from people who are upper income. They earn well over what any of the average subway riders make. The upper income people that were driving in and not paying their fair share. This slightly raises the the portion of the subway costs and the transit costs, the commuter rail costs slightly raises the tolls for what they pay. It is in fact a reasonable approach to trying to make the city better for everyone.

[C]

Okay, so let me ask you a few other questions. I'm not gonna get any answers, so can you bring up this slide which says Saturday Jersey and Sunday Jersey. Let me ask you kind of go to a different question now. So I have questions about the policy even within its own concept. Tiana. Yeah. Bring up the Saturday Jersey. Tell me because it seems very ill conceived even with. Can you make that bigger? So this is Saturday afternoon from Jersey and people who were. This is the most marked changes actually you can see on the congestion price tracking Holland Tunnel Saturday, it really peaks in the mid afternoon. A huge drop in traffic. People coming from Jersey to visit obviously Manhattan. I'm gonna presume to go to restaurants and shops and whatever it is. Why this is not part of our congestion problem. Why are we taxing people off the roads on weekends when it's coming right out of the height of businesses?

[B]

Since congestion pricing went into effect, Broadway attendance has gone up 21%.

[C]

No, it hasn't. I have the stats. That's not true. It's not true.

[B]

It's 21% higher than it was in January and February last year.

[C]

Okay, first answer this. I have those stats and I have them year over year and I'll bring them up for you and I'll show you that that's absolutely not true.

[B]

You can.

[A]

And what about restaurants?

[B]

Restaurants are up. Reservations are up 7%.

[C]

Okay, I'm looking at, I'm looking at weekends here. Do you agree with me that this is a picture of people staying home? Saturday and Sunday is the same? Saturday and Sunday afternoons that would have come into Manhattan. They're not taking public transportation to get into Manhattan at 4:00pm they're staying home.

[B]

Since the pandemic, there has been a big drop off in suburban commuters coming into the city's museums.

[C]

This is since January 1st.

[B]

Broadway, et cetera. No, no, I'm just saying.

[C]

I'm just trying to get you to answer. I'm not asking you trick question. Ask you a very direct question here about the thing. Answer me. Is this a picture of People staying home from Jersey that would have come to Manhattan businesses or not, I can't see.

[A]

Well, we have to look at the restaurant, and we'd have to ask the business people if they've seen a drop.

[C]

Dan, prima facie, when you see a huge drop in traffic on Saturday and Sunday afternoon from all the Jersey crossings, you think that could be good for business?

[A]

Assuming that that's not being substituted. No, no, no. I'm just saying.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

As long as. If, in fact, they're not coming in via public transportation.

[C]

No, they're not. Okay, now. Now you can.

[B]

They are. Public transportation is up.

[C]

Okay, can you bring it up?

[B]

The number of cars?

[C]

It's still way below pre Covid.

[B]

Public transportation is up.

[C]

Yes, but it's not up. It's up a little bit. If you think that people who live in Jersey, where there's no subways in Jersey, are going through that arduous trip of getting on a bus to a train to Grand Central, Penn Station, wherever it is. And finally, they're making their way to soho with their families, when normally they would just drive right in and have brunch somewhere. This is fantasy. Fine to say. Fine to say. I still think it's worth doing.

[B]

Patrons that have sent it up, can.

[C]

You bring up Broadway png?

[B]

The numbers are higher.

[C]

What's higher?

[B]

The numbers of patrons of the restaurants are higher.

[C]

No.

[B]

They're not 7% higher than last year?

[C]

No, no. Okay, first of all, that. That. First of all, this is. Okay, so this is very trick. This is the Broadway season. Now I have the.

[A]

Where's the. Where's this data from?

[C]

This is 23. This is from the Broadway puts out its stats all time. This is where the MTA took his data from. So the top one. So what happens is 24 over 25, you can see is. Is up, which significantly. What was up significantly from the year before? However, the pattern is totally different. So what you're seeing is that after January. Oh, I labeled it wrong. The Top one is 24, 25. Bottom one, 23, 24. After January 5th, you'll see the slope goes way down. Whereas the year before. The reason one goes longer than the other is because we have.

[B]

I don't know the sources of your. Of the charts, but I have spoken to the head of the Shubert Theaters, who has confirmed to me that in fact their attendance is up. It was up, I think said. He said 17% in January. And when you.

[C]

No, no, it was way up in November, in September. October, November, December.

[B]

No, this is over last January?

[C]

Yes, it's way. It was way up. It was way up for the entire year over the year before.

[B]

Theater owners are satisfied. So what are you complaining about?

[C]

Well, you brought up the theaters. I just had. I just.

[B]

No, I said they, I said they are satisfied that this is the congestion.

[C]

So these are the stats.

[B]

Has not had a negative impact.

[C]

These are the stats. I'm not saying it's had a negative impact or not.

[B]

Well, what are you saying?

[C]

Because Broadway theaters are very expensive things. I don't think Broadway theaters are the most price sensitive things.

[B]

But can we go back to Europe?

[C]

Let me read the stats into the.

[B]

Record that you agreed.

[C]

December. December. Hold on. December.

[B]

I don't think this is useful.

[C]

December of 2023, the average theater attendance was 220,000 per week for December 24th. December this poor. It was 308,000 was 150% more. February of 2024, because it's over, was 202,000 averaged. And February of 2025 now was 245,000. A 20% increase. In other words, theater going has been up year over year. Right, but it's. It was up. It was up by 50% prior to, prior to congestion pricing and then the increase went down to only 20% year over year after congestion.

[B]

You're talking about a pandemic phenomenon.

[C]

No, this is way out, dropped off. There's no pandemic.

[B]

No, no, it had dropped off to very low and, and getting people back into the pattern of entering Broadway. And we had a couple not very great seasons of plays and musicals, if you will recall.

[C]

I'm going to send you, I have these stats exactly where the MTA got them. And I'm going to tell you, I.

[B]

Have talked directly to the Broadway people. So I'm, believe me, I talk every day to people about what's going on. I check with the restaurant associations.

[C]

If you talk to restaurant associates, they tell you business is up, then that's just bullshit that I can tell you. I'm a restaurant person, wanna speak to me. It's not good for business.

[A]

What would you attribute? Assuming that you're correct and that restaurant attendance is up and Broadway attendance is up, do you attribute that to more people coming into the city or a different mix of people coming?

[C]

I mean, if this improves business, man, we should charge $30.

[B]

There are, yes, in part. I attribute that to the atmosphere in the city being better since we've got less congestion, less tr. More people are out walking, more people on the streets, the pedestrian foot traffic in all the business improvement Districts is up substantially since congestion pricing. Cab rides are up 10% since congestion pricing. So people are actually moving around the city in ways that are more efficient. More people are on the subways, more people are on commuter rail. And. And the question I have is, you know, what is wrong with that picture? Now there are people who have been inconvenienced, but the MTA put in place, you can go on their website and if you're disabled, you can get exemptions. If you are low income, you can get exemptions.

[C]

No, you don't get exemptions. If you're low income, you get. After 10 trips, you get 25% off. Yes, that's not an exemption.

[B]

You get a discount.

[C]

25%.

[B]

Get an exemption for disability.

[C]

25% discount if you go five days a week, every week.

[B]

And emergency vehicles, they've shown that are moving faster, buses are moving faster. So there's lots of advantages. When we first looked at congestion pricing and the way the business community got behind this was 20 years ago when Stockholm put it in place. We took a look at what happened. And when we looked at. And then we did an analysis.

[C]

Ma', am, I'm sorry. When you bang the table, it's coming on the. Sorry, go ahead.

[B]

You inspire me to bang the table.

[C]

I'm sorry.

[A]

He's really just. That's just his way. Don't take it personally. He likes to argue.

[B]

So we did a study starting back in 2007 to look at what is the economic impact of excess traffic congestion. And what we found was updated to 2018. When this passed the state legislature was $20 billion a year in lost productivity and time and excess fuel costs, et cetera, in the region. So the revenues from congestion pricing are about 500 million a year. That is so far much less than the 20 billion a year it was costing us, excess traffic congestion. So just the numbers make a compelling case, particularly for businesses.

[C]

But if you don't care about the impact on working people who have set up their lives in places where it's not convenient to take the subway.

[A]

But she did say that they're already taking steps to ameliorate that.

[C]

And I asked, when will that ever. When do they expect that to go online?

[B]

Coming online, the governor announced, in terms of Rockland County, I don't know where in the suburbs you live, but in terms of Rockland, she announced improvements. Metro north is now going to come into Penn Station within the next five years. And so you're going to have the options of both.

[C]

But I also have to get a Subway. I also need a Metro north station near my house.

[A]

Well, you can park in my house.

[B]

You can drive there and park.

[C]

No, I don't know. My town doesn't have a Metro north station. We don't get any parking permits.

[B]

Well, some town up there does.

[C]

Some towns do, some towns don't.

[A]

But it can't be too far.

[C]

But the people who move to my.

[B]

Town, closer than driving to the village.

[C]

The people who moved to my town understood, well, I'm going to move to a town that doesn't have a train station. I'm going to drive. And now they're going to raise it to $20 extra to drive in. And they say, oh, it's for your own good.

[A]

But if you drove to the nearest train station, which is what I did many, many years ago.

[C]

And it's not saving time, that's for sure. It's not going to save. If I had to drive to the station, even if I could get parking, wait, hopefully find the station right at the right hour, arrive at Grand Central station, get out, get a taxi or a subway, way longer than driving in.

[B]

Do you ride a bike?

[C]

Ma', Am, I'm 62 years old. I'm not riding a bike to work in the wintertime. Come on now. No, no, you ride a bike.

[B]

No, I'm not saying you ride a bike to work. I just asked if you ride a bike. I was trying to find another reason you would like congestion pricing.

[A]

Well, I'm 55 and I use the electric city by quite a good, Quite a, quite a.

[B]

And have you noticed it's safer that we're down?

[A]

No, because it's winter, so I haven't used it later.

[C]

So part of, and part of the reason it bothers me so much when I watch it MTA Boardman, is because they're so dishonest. They say that restaurants are up, but actually if you look at the open table stats, it's restaurants were up for the entire year and they're even more up in Boston. There's no, there's no spike in restaurants as of January 5th in the congestion district. Restaurant, I have it here. Restaurants were up 9% in December. They were up 5% in October, they were up 7% in, in, in January, they were up 3% in February. This is, there's no. And then, and the other thing they, they talk about how they have credit card transactions have gone up 5% in the congestion district, but they don't tell us what credit cards a, how they went up in the non congestion district and by the way, 5% is about the inflation rate. They don't, they don't control it for inflation.

[B]

Restaurant reservations as of today are upset 7% according to open.

[C]

But that's citywide. That's not in the container.

[B]

No, no, no. That's in that.

[C]

No it isn't.

[B]

That is in the cbd.

[C]

No it's not. It's New York City. And even if it were in the cbd, you'd have to also. Then tell me what is, what are they up in the non cbd? This is. So I'm approaching this in a very objective social science type way. You have to control for things when you do statistics statistic to say that. Are you gonna tell me you're a smart woman that restaurants are up 7% so therefore it was congestion pricing as if restaurants never go up otherwise.

[B]

No, that's not exactly what I, what I'm saying is that the damage that people feared has not happened. I'm not, I'm not crediting congestion pricing. You can't isolate congestion pricing from other factors.

[C]

First of all, you know, so I don't know what the damage will be for open table type restaurants, but obviously we know that the way economics works is that people also substitute. So if it costs you more to get in someplace, you may order something less expensive. I mean when you start drilling down you have to know, as I said, how are the restaurants doing in the non congestion? There's so much to know about rather than just kind of.

[B]

But you're ignoring what I said before about the cost of excess traffic congestion and what that cost.

[C]

My reservations especially our overflow are down in the last couple months. Now if I told you that's because of congestion pricing, you'd say you don't know that's because of congestion pricing. And you'd be right.

[D]

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[A]

Okay, so you're conceding that we really don't know right now? We don't have.

[C]

I'm only answering their claim. And then they claim that credit card transactions are up, but they don't ever tell us what's due to inflation. Costs are through the roof. I mean, the tendentious nature of the way they're presenting statistics is embarrassing.

[B]

Here's a point of agreement which has really nothing to do with directly with congestion pricing. But New York City has in the last decade become the third most expensive city in the world. And the ones ahead of us, well.

[C]

This is going to make it more expensive.

[B]

The ones ahead of us, I'm saying this is where we have a point of agreement. The ones ahead of us are Singapore number one, Zurich number two. And we're tied with Geneva for number three. And obviously the increased costs of the city are a huge crisis. And more than 10 years ago, we were in double digit numbers. We were not near the top of most expensive cities. So that is a very scary thing that we have to pay a lot of attention to. And certainly I'm sympathetic to the argument that adding tolls, adding taxes. The problem is the choice was not adding a toll or not. The choice was adding a toll on cars and people who drive in, who earn more than the average subway rider, or raising fares more or adding yet another tax.

[C]

Why? How do we survive all this?

[B]

Because the only way to make up, to provide people with the transit they expect with a reliable, safe transit system. Remember, we're living off the cars and the equipment and the investments that were made in the 1980s when Dick Rav fixing the system. So to provide, to continue to finance that is not free. How do they do it in.

[C]

How do they do it in?

[B]

A choice of congestion pricing or nothing.

[C]

How do cities all over the country do this? New York City is the richest country in the richest city in the country. We can't manage to do what we did 50 years ago.

[B]

In what terms do you say in New York City it's the largest economy, but to say it's the richest city in the country.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

We have more than a 21% poverty rate, people living below the federal poverty.

[C]

Level, far more homeless people. Now you sound like me.

[B]

We are not the richest city.

[C]

We are the home of the wealthiest people. In the world and the wealthiest industries and banking. And for years when New York was just.

[B]

We are a great commercial.

[C]

When New York was more of a manufacturing city, we managed to build subways. We managed to do this stuff. Now, Tiana, can you bring up that subway video? I did you have that? This is so the people.

[B]

Oh, you haven't talked about what we're losing in fare evasion and why don't we make that up more? You forgot that one.

[A]

Well, well, of course.

[B]

That's a good one. That's a good one. 700 million a year and lost revenues for Fairvation.

[C]

Before you play. Just bring it. So listen. So now a lot of my employees. I want to talk about. A lot of my employees take the subway. We had four employees horribly assaulted in the last. What is the prayer like? 7 months. 1 slashed, 1 stitches. Subways are not people having urine thrown on their heads.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Now, again, the people who we are pricing off the roads, we want them to take the subways. Now. I would never take a subway. I'm sure you're not gonna take the subways.

[B]

I take the subway all the time.

[C]

But you're not gonna take it at night. You're not gonna take it when my employees have to take it. You're not going to take it in a bad. You're not going to. You're not going to take it if you live in a bad neighborhood in Brooklyn or a bad neighborhood. This is. This is what gets me. Don't you understand? Your life is completely different than the people I'm referring to.

[B]

Make them safer, okay? And that's what we're.

[C]

Why do we make them safer first? Okay, we are. I went.

[B]

I went on Twitter about the investment in the subway safety.

[C]

I went on Twitter and I downloaded just like random subway videos. Go ahead, play. That's like a minute long. You can. There's a never ending supply of these.

[A]

I think we.

[C]

Watch. Watch. This is. This is.

[A]

Where was that last?

[B]

That was not. That was not in New York.

[C]

This is New York.

[A]

The last one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was not unfamiliar.

[B]

That was not a New world subway car. Oh.

[C]

I mean, maybe I misread it. If it's not. If it's not a New York subway car, it's. It could have been. I mean, we all seen this. I've seen this. The idea that we are. This is where they found a dead body. This is. They found a dead body on the subway recently.

[B]

We now have cameras in the trains. We have cops walking the trains. We've got a big investment.

[C]

The Notion that I. Okay, you can. The notion that we.

[B]

We.

[C]

Okay, actually, let it play. Let him play some more.

[A]

You get the point. But.

[C]

Okay, well, I mean, you can just cut the sounds here. The. The notion that. Look at this. That we all know that any of us with means are not letting our wives or our daughters or our old people get on these subway rides. They'll take. We go on. Take a ride. You know, in midtown, a particular hour, when a lot of people's suits are on, you're traveling between. Well, to do jobs. But my employees. My employees.

[B]

Spoken like a resident of the rich suburbs. Yes, we do, in fact, take subways in those of us who live in New York City. I live in Brooklyn. I take subways day and night.

[C]

Well, you wouldn't if it was dangerous like that.

[B]

I do.

[C]

Why would you?

[B]

I always have.

[C]

Why?

[B]

Why not?

[C]

Because it's dangerous.

[A]

What about the notion that. Of course, these are some horrific videos, but what about the notion that driving a car also carries dangers?

[C]

Oh, come on.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

That's just ridiculous.

[A]

Well, they do. And if I were living in the suburbs, I would be probably more comfortable with my daughter taking the subway than taking a car into the city. Certainly it's not.

[C]

That's the most asinine thing I've ever heard in my life. All right. John McWhorter, who I'm a big fan of, and he writes. You know, he writes.

[A]

Oh, you're saying that car accidents don't. I mean, there are dangers.

[C]

I'm saying that the threat of crime, senseless violence, what Val went through, what Chad went through, what the people we know, who've gone through, who work for us, are not comparable. And how they affect us psychologically and traumatize us to the fact that, yeah, you could get in a car accident. Everybody can get in a car accident.

[B]

We can do about that. The governor has made some impressions. Important legislative proposals, along with the.

[C]

You know, they're not going to change anything. Come on, we've lived in the city our whole lives. They don't change anything.

[B]

We're working very hard on getting some. Some of the things changed.

[C]

Saying this my entire life, I've been hearing these same things. The only time. The only time we work on that. If I were the governor, I would have first cleaned up the subway and then tried to get people to.

[B]

Which they have invested heavily in doing.

[C]

Okay, a year from now, let's do this again. I'm going to bet you nothing's going to change. But. So John McWhorter says. He says he's very in favor of congestion pricing. He writes, but if you need a car. But if you need a car, need, if you need a car, as I do, then none of that holds a candle to the hassle of driving Manhattan. Unless you have the option of doing your motoring at 2 in the morning. It's tedious and frustrating. Misery says congestion pricing. You're not going to wrench it. From my cold, dead hands. I'm like, oh, John, yes, you need a car. I'm sure you do, probably for the reason I described. And you're going to get your convenience because other people who need a car can't afford the toll, so they're going to make way for John McWhorter. You don't know the poor make way for the rich.

[B]

That's just not true.

[C]

Not only is it true, it's axiomatic. The whole theory of congestion pricing.

[B]

People are making choices. The legitimate point is that we have to have a transit system that accommodates reasonable choices. Why is it all nice, but it's a catch 22? Because to have that transit system, we have to raise the funds to build it out.

[C]

Why not just tax rich people more? Why not just tax rich people more?

[B]

Well, we've done that. That was the first recourse. We've done that for the last.

[C]

But why take it out on the po Tax rich people more?

[B]

We're not taking it out of the poor. The poor are on the subways. Look at the demographics. The poor are taking mass transit and not getting the reliable services if we don't invest.

[C]

Tiana, what was the story you told me about your friend or your sister?

[B]

Can you hear me?

[C]

Yeah, she's a, she's a. No, I just, I have a friend who's single. Four, Four children and commutes all over.

[B]

Staten island and across Manhattan to work and bring her kids to school. So she's living off of credit cards.

[C]

And now it's kind of a little bit deeper. So the decisions have been made to move kids to different schools that she.

[B]

Didn'T want them to be in. Staten island definitely has a case to make. I, I, I cannot disagree with that. We've got to pay a lot more attention and transit system.

[C]

You see these videos by people of color popping up on the Internet all the time. Can you, there's, there's two, hold on. There's two files there that don't have, I didn't name them. They're just like garbage characters, you know, like 2D. Can you play them the videos and as you get that set up, other questions I want to know is why is it all night? Why doesn't it stop at 9 o'? Clock? Why?

[B]

It goes way down. It's 275.

[C]

But why isn't it zero? Like, why are they still charging people to get to where there's no congestion? Why does it go all the way down to Lower Manhattan where there is no congestion? Why don't they just box off Midtown?

[B]

I work in Lower Manhattan by Bowling Green. It's got the worst congestion in the city. We have the oldest streets, the narrowest.

[C]

Streets, and the worst down by Wall Street. Okay, but. But the area between Wall street and, you know, Times Square is not congested. It's not more congested than. Not more congested than the Upper west side. Anyway, this is. Just play, please. And again, you can find these. Play this TikTok video. Go ahead. This is. These are the people who. Who John McWhorter wants to price over.

[E]

Specifically asks for safety for subways. What does New York City do? Okay, we're just going to have people pay a toll.

[C]

Yeah, just turn it up. I shouldn't say. John, These are people that.

[A]

People that you haven't already made.

[B]

One second. You need to put the headphones. Okay, okay.

[C]

No, you should listen. Put this in the headphones. You don't even want to listen.

[A]

Well, I think. Noam, you probably already made her points, but if you make.

[C]

Dan, what is the matter with you?

[A]

Well, I'm not allowed to talk when I talk. You can talk, but whatever point you make, I never get that tone with you.

[C]

You can talk, but what you're. What you're. What you're doing is trying to hold.

[A]

My fire as opp. When you go, I make a point that you don't like. You're not making a fucking snoring noise.

[C]

You're not making a point. You're trying to prevent me.

[A]

I'm saying she doesn't want to listen. She's. Whatever this young lady is saying on the TikTok video might be something you've already addressed. If not, perhaps she'll listen.

[C]

Can you play it?

[A]

I don't think that's so outrageous that it deserves that level of a reaction.

[C]

Can you play it, Tiana? These are the people.

[B]

You know, the Trump administration has put.

[E]

Axis for safer subways.

[B]

Tik Tok. What does.

[E]

New York City videos.

[C]

This is before.

[B]

That's where. No, no, no. This. This came out. They've put out a video of the people. Can you stop complaining about congestion?

[C]

Okay, this is a conspiracy theory. This is not a.

[B]

This woman conspiracy.

[C]

This woman is not a Trump administration plant. This is a conspiracy theory. I.

[B]

No, it is not a conspiracy.

[C]

So you. You are going to. You are going to now verify for me that this is a Trump administration.

[B]

The Trump administrator, the Department of Transportation, Sean Duffy, the administrator, has bragged about it. They put out a. Last week, they put out this TikTok films showing people who were complaining about congestion pricing. Yes.

[C]

What do you mean they put them. I mean, they. They found them and retweeted. That's. That's different. That's. Yes, but that's quite different than saying they weren't organic videos of people who were upset about congestion prices. No, no.

[B]

They know they made a video. It was not organic.

[C]

Okay. This is not. This is a woman. This is a. This is not a Trump made video.

[B]

I understand. I pay a lot of attention to the concerns about congestion, but you won't.

[C]

Even listen to what this woman has to say.

[B]

I know what the woman has.

[C]

What do you think?

[B]

She. I'm sure.

[C]

So she's going to talk about how the subways. I mean, I can just cut it into the video if you don't want to listen to it.

[E]

The people specifically ask for safer subways. What does New York City do? Okay, we're just going to have people pay a toll to come into the city. Forcing people to take public transportation, which is dangerous. Like, y' all are not gonna get me to take the train. I don't care. When I used to take public transportation. Let me just say this first. The trains were never safe. You couldn't have your iPhone out like that. You couldn't have. It was never safe. But I do want to say I was allowed to get a little nap. I could close my eyes for a few minutes. No, I didn't think somebody was gonna light me on fire or push me on the train tracks. It wasn't like that. You were more scared that people might steal something from you. But I didn't think I was gonna lose my life on the train. Like, that was never a thought. When I was taking public transportation, I made a video maybe a year or two stating that I really would not take public transportation. I don't care what the is going on because I enjoy being in the comfort of my car and I'm not having to, like, look over my shoulder every five minutes. Like, you literally can get on the live by just going to work. Like, it's so common now. And I'm like, no, but New York City Y' all gotta get the together. Like, I probably got like two more years in this state and I gotta get the out. Cause it's y'.

[B]

All.

[E]

And even though I make the money, like, I don't want to pay for these things. What the is going on? I want to know who approved this new fare congestion fee to go into Manhattan. We already have to pay a fare to go over any of the bridges, any of the tunnels, and now we're paying another fair to be just there under 60th Street. I'd rather walk from my house in Queens to Manhattan than pay that $9 fee.

[C]

But there's, there's, there's a number of women just like Tiana's friend who say, I'm not taking that subway. It's dangerous. I'm not walking home from the subway because it's dangerous. I got my kids to drive around. I got my. This. There's no subway near me. There's old people. I mean, this is why I know that. Because somehow in the most liberal city, all of a sudden, everybody's thinking like a Republican. In any normal other issue. Such a regressive tax that was designed to price people out of driving to work.

[B]

Not a tax. It's a user fee.

[C]

Such a regressive user fee would be considered something that the rich people. It's like the rich people want to get to work faster, so let's charge the poor take enough money so they won't drive.

[B]

Poor are on mass transit. You're missing the whole point.

[C]

Then, then who is, then who is getting.

[B]

People are not driving into Manhattan.

[C]

Then why do we have less congestion?

[B]

Why? Because people are making different choices.

[C]

Who, Rich people?

[A]

Some.

[B]

Some. Yes, some. But, but all sorts of people are making different choices.

[C]

You can't admit to me it's mostly people who can't afford it.

[B]

Any of the vehicles, especially the trucks that were coming across, that had chosen to come across Manhattan, across Canal street because it was so much more convenient and cheaper for them, are now going around because they don't want to come back.

[C]

You're contradicting yourself. You just finished telling me subway ridership is up. Who are those? Yeah, so those aren't truckers.

[B]

I'm talking about truckers.

[C]

Right, but I'm saying.

[B]

Truckers.

[A]

I think. Could I, if I could summarize, some number of poor people or middle class people or working class people are being priced off the road, a greater number, hopefully, are benefiting from improvements in mass transit.

[C]

Then let's just, then let's just charge the Trucks, then let's not charge the poorer people.

[A]

Well, your point about why not just tax the rich, I guess, is a valid point. It would.

[C]

It wouldn't kill.

[B]

You already did that.

[A]

Can't we admit what that wouldn't do?

[C]

Can't you admit that at some point part of this theory rests on the idea of pricing people off the roads who can't afford it? Can't you admit that?

[B]

Or who choose not to.

[C]

Or who. Or who choose not to. Because. Because. Because they're cheap.

[B]

It is a combination. It's not because they're cheap necessarily. It's because we give them a good option.

[C]

What's the good option?

[B]

A good option is Metro north or the Long Island.

[C]

They already had that option and they forewent it. They didn't want that. No.

[B]

Because largely out of habit. We've got a country that's a car culture. And if people have gotten used to getting it one way. When we interview people who are driving in and paying the tolls today, 66%, as was as of the first month of congestion pricing, 66% of the people who are driving in and pay the tolls say they now support congestion pricing because they're getting hours back in their day. Yes. Like me. More time.

[C]

That's right. Because that's because they don't care about the people who are getting out of their way. This is such a. This is exactly what I'm saying. This is like. Again, I like, I know John McWhorter a little bit. I'm a huge fan of his. But when he says almost. Almost like without self awareness for those of us who need to drive, he's like, yes, John, you need to drive and you can afford it. There are other people who need to drive, quote, unquote. Nobody needs to drive. But they're not gonna. They can't afford the $9. And it's gone up to $20. Whatever. It's going up to $15. They can't afford it. Bernie Sanders was fetching tariffs.

[A]

Easy on the Yiddish. We're trying to.

[C]

Bernie Sanders was complaining. The tariffs are gonna cause tariffs. The average American family $1,200 a year. This is what he said. I'm like $1,200 a year. That's less than congestion pricing is going to cost each driver in the family. So from a liberal point of view.

[B]

And what are they saving on gasoline? Time. Getting to work on time. What are they saving?

[C]

I don't. First of all.

[B]

See, that's what you're missing.

[C]

No, no, first of all you're assuming you're going to get. You're assuming they're going to get to work quicker. And I think that's absolutely not true.

[B]

But it has proven true. You would be contradicting fact if you say that's not true. It has proven true. They are getting to work quicker.

[C]

Who is getting to work quicker? People from Staten Island. People.

[B]

Yes, yes, absolutely.

[C]

This is.

[A]

Are they mostly taking buses? The people from Staten Island?

[B]

This is a combination of buses.

[C]

This is so anti logical to me. You're saying that people who are better off in every way, they're saving money, they're getting to way quicker and it's more convenient. Will not do it unless they have to. Unless we force them. And this is our public policy.

[B]

No, it's not a matter of forcing them.

[C]

People know it's in their own interests.

[B]

They have a choice. So it's not forcing them. It's letting them experience the options, forcing them. And again, the key here is, and what we have to do very well is make sure that we are making every place in the city accessible by expanding and improving our transit system.

[C]

And how many years will that take?

[B]

And that is an ongoing process, but it's one. That's approximately how many years it will not happen if we don't invest.

[C]

But how many years will it take?

[B]

Right now, Right now we have started already buying new equipment.

[C]

Okay. But we've seen some of these. We've seen some of these projects take 15, 20 years. We've seen that. Is there some reason that this project is. We should expect it to take two years, three years?

[A]

Well, I think you can do a lot with buses much more quickly, obviously, than you can do with subways.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that can probably happen virtually tomorrow.

[B]

And they have changed the bus routes and added bus routes where needed, where there were transit buses.

[A]

And do we have data on how fast the buses are moving? I think you alluded to that earlier.

[B]

Yeah. No, we do. The buses are moving substantially.

[C]

I don't understand why it's all night. I don't understand why it's in all neighborhoods. Just a money grab. And what's gonna happen? In my opinion, we'll end with Jane Surowiecki. What's gonna happen is that bosses are gonna give raises for their employees who can't do it. Other people are gonna take different jobs. Eventually all the costs are gonna get passed through to the consumers. Congestion will come back exactly as it has in London. New York City will be ever the more expensive, but there will be a brand new stream of revenue for the government to waste. That is what I predict.

[A]

And by the way, you might be right. I know on Twitter recently you said that. I'm beyond that. I forgot the word you used. But basically you said.

[C]

I said you're irredeemable.

[A]

I've said I don't know what you said. The fact of the matter is, if the data contradicts me in a year's time, I'll say it's too late.

[C]

As I told you, it doesn't matter. Even if the data contradicts, they will never undo it.

[A]

I'll admit that I. In other words, I'm not.

[C]

You can look at London.

[A]

Well, London, the traffic is back.

[C]

I believe you said 105% of what it was.

[A]

I believe there's other factors. I think the city.

[C]

There's always other factors.

[A]

The city has grown and I believe some of the streets have been closed for pedestrian.

[B]

They included exemptions for electric vehicles and other exemptions that we don't have. So there they had a whole different set of.

[C]

Okay, but we were told over and over when this first came on as the idea it's working in London, it's working in London. And then over the time it took to get congestion pricing, London faded as a good example. That's how people. And then people.

[B]

Not true.

[C]

Explain that away too.

[B]

London is doing what they want to do. They wanted to reduce pollute. I mean, their main objective was environmental. When they passed this in, the congestion.

[C]

Is right back where it was.

[B]

Who led the effort.

[A]

Well, that congestion might be back, I don't know. But it might be largely electric at this point, I don't know.

[B]

They've incentivized electric vehicles.

[C]

We should do that. That's perfectly fine.

[A]

As far as. Why don't just tax the rich? That might be a way to go.

[B]

But electric vehicles cost.

[A]

You wouldn't get.

[C]

No, actually speaking of the poor, very expensive electric vehicles are get cheaper and cheaper and people have the option, at least have the option to stay with the status quo.

[B]

But that's not about poor people being able to get around the city.

[C]

No, I'm just saying. I want to read James Surwake. You know, James Surwiecki is.

[A]

Well, can I just address your. Why not just tax the rich? Yeah, okay. Because maybe that's a good way to do it. But you wouldn't get. Well, he means you're doing it more now. Which first, what you wouldn't get any left. What you wouldn't get, I assume are faster bus times, better pedestrian experience. When you traffic fatalities are down, you know those sorts of benefits you wouldn't.

[C]

Get when you model this out. Did they model out the effects of the employers simply giving the raise to their, to their employees and then passing it to the cost through to the consumers?

[B]

That wasn't what they were looking at. They weren't, they weren't looking at the price of congestion tolls or what the application was. What they were looking at was what excess traffic congestion, when it goes from being a busy street to gridlock, what does that cost an economy? That's what they were looking at.

[C]

Yeah, but they didn't price it.

[A]

What we need to do is really bring the hammer down and people that cross the intersection without create the gridlock. You need to know that you can get all the way across. And if you don't, you need a beating.

[B]

We need a beating.

[A]

Once we do that, we'll get traffic moving a lot quicker.

[B]

I agree. We can better enforce that.

[C]

We can't get the police right now to enforce the most basic crimes. And this is what this is. What this is. This is something that this is. This is a difference that I'm. That gets more and more difficult for me to, to live with over the last 10 years. The difference in life experience between the people like you and Alex Matheson and people coming, nice people, smart people who tell me about, you know, your, your projections, who have zero idea of what this is in real life to the real people. This is impacting.

[B]

You've got to be kidding. That's an insult and that's ridiculous. And I don't know what real life is.

[C]

You think that the police are going to start enforcing this stuff now?

[A]

Believe me, I'm the one that brought up a group.

[B]

I have spent a lot more time on the ground in New York City than you have.

[C]

Are the police enforcing stuff now?

[B]

The police are hamstrung now in a lot of ways. I'm not arguing that.

[C]

That's my point.

[B]

That was.

[C]

But my. But yes, but if part of this congestion pricing to all work out depends on the police and you're acknowledging they're hamstrung, then this is half baked.

[B]

How does it depend on the police?

[C]

Because we need the police for people at least to be able to safely travel on mass transit.

[B]

Yes. And they are doing that. No, they're hamstrung crime in mass transit. Crime in the subways is down substantially in the last couple months. Jesse Tisch just released new information and they are in fact really focused on the subways. There's A whole new program. There's now cameras all over the place on the trains. And so they are really going after that. They're going after the fare evasion situation, which is, you know, nobody goes, nobody pays the fare to go commit a crime on the subway. And they're going after all of that. And there's a big investment in mental health facilities and the governor is now trying to pass legislation that would allow forcing people to stay in treatment and not having this revolving door in the emergency rooms on mental health. There is a comprehensive effort going on to make our transit system safer.

[C]

And you. Okay, listen, I don't think it's gonna happen because it's never happened except under like Giuliani and Bloomberg. I don't think they have the will for it. But maybe this how we'll wrap up.

[B]

Who knows who's coming your way in the next mayor election, but could be Corinne Fisher.

[C]

But by the way, so James Surowiecki says, I mean you'll agree with this. And in the end it does come down to whether you think what do you think is realistic, I mean, or what do you think is pie in the sky? Because he, he's very in favor of congestion pricing. He says figuring out that he had a very influential book, the the Wisdom of Crowds. He says figuring out how much driving should cost though is a tough problem and economists have spilled a lot of ink trying to solve it. One obvious challenge is that the wealthier you are, the easier it is to trade money for time and convenience. Exactly what I'm saying. You'll pay to drive into London because it's easier than taking the Tube. Poorer people can avoid the toll not by driving. But I'm sorry, poor people can avoid the toll by not driving, but that doesn't make them any better off than they were before. This is the key, actually makes them worse off. So any fair congestion pricing plan, and I'm saying it's not fair, has not only to charge tolls but also to redistribute the revenue they raise. Singapore did that by building a hyper modern mass rabbit mass rapid transit system. And Livingstone's plan for London similarly involves spending hundreds of million dollars on public transportation. And it goes on and on so.

[B]

Shortly it's dedicated revenues and our revenues by law are 100% dedicated to improving the MTA.

[C]

Now I'm saying, and this is where the rubber hits the road. I'm going to guarantee you that 10 years from now we are not going to have any new hyper modern mass rapid transportation system in New York City. And therefore, by Surowiecki's own logic, it is unfair. And if you believe this is gonna happen, I mean, they haven't. There's no like even approved plans for some hyper modern transportation system in New York. They talk about some, you know, some elevators here for the handicap, you know, they're always like, you know, tweaking. But there's no new subway line that's gonna.

[B]

Have you been on the second Avenue subway?

[C]

No, I have not been on it.

[B]

Well, I'm just saying there are in fact plans for new systems. The inner borough going between Brooklyn and Queens, which is a route that we really need. We have new centers of employment and economic activity throughout the borough and the region. And we've got to build transit to fit to that and we've got to be able to afford that. And we're tapping all sources. We're tapping rich people, we're tapping business, we're upping the fares, we're tapping all sources. And tolls are a small part of that.

[A]

Also, as I said earlier, yes, subways are going to take a long time, but buses can be brought online virtually overnight.

[B]

And how. The first revenues from congestion pricing have gone to purchase new buses in southeastern Queens, which is one of those areas with weak public transportation. But don't you understand?

[C]

A lot of people have kids. They plan their lives around dropping their kids off daycare, going shopping. They live, as you say, in trans. We're talking in transportation deserts. They maybe have jobs that are not convenient. Some people are older, they don't want to walk in the brutally cold winters.

[B]

And most of those people are dependent on public transit. And we have to invest in it.

[C]

No, they're not. Okay, the Second Avenue subway took. I think the Second Avenue subway was conceived in 2007. It took 10 years.

[B]

2007?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Try, try 1907 or.

[C]

I'm sorry, they started building in 2007, was restarted in 2007. It took them 10 years to complete phase one. Phase two was planned to be finished by. You want to guess, Dan?

[A]

Phase two, that's going up to 125th Street, I believe.

[C]

Yeah. When do they. This is how long they plan to take it. 23rd, 2032. That's why I'm calling bullshit on the whole thing. Like this is a long plan thing. 2032. The people that you're talking about are going to benefit from this. This is some. This is. They're not going to benefit. They're going to be old by then. They're going to suffer.

[B]

They're benefiting as right now the MTA has already bought new buses for southeast Queens. The benefits are starting to come now. There are very few things that you pay taxes on where you see that kind of return on your investment very fast.

[C]

What would five years, an hour, a year from now, what statistical measures would cause you to say, oh, this may not be working as I thought.

[B]

If traffic gets worse.

[C]

If traffic comes back.

[B]

If traffic gets worse. I was worried when we had recommended a fee of $15. The governor insisted that that was too much sticker shock, that we should lower it. She was able to reduce. Reduce it, still meet the terms and reduce it to $9. I was very worried that when it got turned on, the $9 would not be enough to reduce traffic. And so I was very relieved when, in fact, it made a significant reduction.

[C]

When she said she was suspending congestion pricing indefinitely in her inner circle, they knew that wasn't true.

[B]

No, she did. She did suspend it without a date. Certain of when it would come back?

[C]

No, but indefinitely means. Doesn't usually mean till the day after the election. I mean, obviously this was calculated. Right. It wasn't just by coincidence after the election. Oh, you know, I revisit it. I think it's good. You agree they were trying to avoid the election, right?

[B]

No, I spoke to her. When she paused it, she was very concerned that the best we had been able to come up with. I was on the mobility board that came up with the pricing, that the best we had able to come up with was 15 bucks. And she felt that was a real burden to start out at 15 bucks. She said, can't we bring it down?

[C]

She could have lowered it to nine. She could have lowered it to nine then.

[B]

And, well, it took time because it was a negotiation with the federal Department of Transportation, because they had improved. They had improved one set of circumstances and they had to refigure everything.

[C]

I think it's been reported factually that they paused it because of the election. I think that's actually been.

[B]

That has been. The governor has never said that. That has been an assumption, a political assumption, and it's very uncomfortable.

[C]

I think people have sources close to the governor that have.

[B]

Yeah, no, no, I know that, but the governor has not said that.

[C]

Right. But we know a lot of things about our leaders that they don't admit to, but they're verified by reporters and journalists.

[B]

Well, the point, My original point was that I was concerned at that point that it was too low a number to work. But in fact, it has worked.

[C]

But you Knew it was coming back.

[B]

Yes, well, I knew that. She said this was a pause, was the word.

[C]

She didn't say pause. She said suspended indefinitely.

[B]

No, she said this is a pause.

[C]

No, she said suspended indefinitely.

[B]

She said both. She said both. She said, I'm suspending this indefinitely without a date, certainly. And then she said, but this is a pause. When asked in that same press conference. When asked, she said, this is a pause and we will review it. We'll see what we can do and see if we can bring it back. And I had that conversation with her afterwards, reinforcing that. It was a pause to figure out a better solution. She came back with that, got it approved by the feds and was able to put it in place.

[C]

I think it's a crazy. All right, listen, you're as good an advocate for it as there has ever been. Nobody wants. It's like we don't care about the people who are priced off the roads.

[B]

That's what that is. Absolutely not true. We are doing this for the people who don't have the resources to drive into Manhattan every day, who have to come into Manhattan, who don't have the resources to drive to their job at a hospital in Queens. We're doing this to improve our mass transit system.

[C]

But we understand, based on every bit of common sense and previous experience, you're talking about 15, 20, 25 years for this stuff that you're talking about.

[B]

No, you're not. They're improving the signal systems as we speak.

[C]

Improving is not. You're talking about an overhaul. You're not talking about improving. You don't bring a subway closer to somebody's house by improving.

[B]

We have a very good system. We have added the express buses. I have one that stops in front of my house. I don't have a subway within 20 minutes, but I have an express bus that stops in front of my house. Well, if I walk fast, it's 20 minutes. So we are making those improvements now. You're too cynical about what's happening, because.

[C]

I know people disaffected. Just one example. Like an old woman has to take a bus to the subway to work at night in Manhattan. And by the way, she wouldn't have to if they just would take the charge off in the evening.

[B]

Or if you'd raise her salary.

[C]

Yeah, that's right. Or if I raise it. But not everybody will raise salary. I'm saying the theory of if I raise their salary, then I gotta raise my prices, and then it just makes Manhattan more expensive. And many people are. I Know, many, many people who've already gotten their salaries raised by their bosses for whatever it is.

[B]

As I said before, we agree on the affordability crisis the city is facing. And that's something we have to do something about. Absolutely.

[C]

Because nothing can be.

[B]

One of the things we do about that is we keep subway fares as low as possible. For the 95% of people who are dependent on the subways to get to work and on the buses to get to work, we want to keep those fares low. And. And the drivers who have average incomes substantially higher than the subway riders are contributing to that.

[C]

You know, from time to time, you might have had this experience. I go to another city like Miami, or, you know, just other cities, and I look around. They have transportation. They have running water.

[B]

They don't have transportation. They don't have public transportation. Everybody has to have a car.

[C]

Well, I don't know about Miami, but they have, you know, you got me there.

[B]

We have the best public transit system in the country.

[C]

By the transportation side, I was making a broader point that everything. Everything costs like, three times as much for tax dollars in New York as it does in other cities. Exactly. They will have schools and get the same results. In New York city schools, for $12,000 a student, we have $40,000 student. They have street lights. Their streetlights cost one quarter what our street lights do. They have hot and cold running water. Our hot and cold running water. Everything to build. To build. The Second Avenue subway costs more for us than socialized Europe, France. So this notion that there's. We have to do something about the cost. You got to be. You have to. You got to go in there. It's like. I don't sound like Trump. They have to go in there with a wrecking ball. They have to break the unions. There's no, like, magic way of breaking the cost here. They have to rip the city apart. And they're just putting band aid upon band aid upon band aid. By that, you're right. They were all taxed out. Everybody knew they were taxed out. So how else are we going to get this revenue? I got it. We'll dress it up as environmental and congestion, and we'll get more revenue that way. This is just a revenue grab, as demonstrated by the fact it goes all night. There's no reason in the world it should go all night.

[B]

It's just a revenue grab. If it was not improving people's commutes as it is.

[C]

The rich people's commutes.

[B]

No, no. The bus riders. Commutes are Very much the most improved.

[C]

Again, why does it go all night?

[B]

It goes all night because There is traffic 24. 7 in New York. But it's not congested, it's much lower. Well, it's much lower at night. Trying to get people especially we're trying to get trucks to come in and deliver.

[C]

Okay, you for the trucks. But why can't every day like I have a nightclub, we're open at night like our 11. That's actually where we see the biggest fall off is our late shows. People don't want to pay the damn toll to come in to see a show at 11 o' clock at night. Why are they charging people at 11 o' clock at night? Under the guise of saying to get traffic off of it. It's not congested at 11 o' clock at night. Why are they doing that?

[B]

They are doing that to raise revenues. Yeah, yeah, that is correct. But they're doing it at very low price point by comparison. And they're trying to create the incentive. Incentive for those who have the choice to come in later at night.

[C]

All right. Well, I think it's absurd to think that you're going to get better economy by charging people to get to places.

[B]

Well, I thank you for devoting this amount of time to discussing congestion prices.

[C]

Check the Broadway stats, you'll see I'm right. Check them.

[B]

You and I agreed on what the Broadway stats were.

[C]

Yeah, but I'm saying that if you control for the already up whatever with rehash it. Yeah, I don't see. Anyway, whatever. Hopefully it'll work out. Listen, as I said, my commute is awesome.

[B]

Good.

[A]

Okay. Catherine, thank you for coming.

[B]

Thank you for having me. Thank you.