Podcast Summary: "Live from the Table: Knock-down Drag-out Debate on Congestion Pricing with Expert Kathryn Wylde"

Podcast: The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table
Date: March 6, 2025
Host(s): Dan Natterman, Noam Dworman, Perry El Aschenbrand
Guest: Kathryn Wylde, President and CEO of the Partnership for New York City
Main Theme:
A spirited, deeply detailed debate on New York City’s congestion pricing scheme—its goals, fairness, and impact—pitting skeptic club owner Noam Dworman against proponent Kathryn Wylde, with frequent crossfire, real-life anecdotes, and sharp comedy edge throughout.

Episode Overview

The episode stages a vigorous, often combative discussion around Manhattan’s congestion pricing: a new policy that charges drivers entering Manhattan below 60th street, aiming to decrease traffic and generate funds for public transport. Host Noam Dworman is a relentless critic, arguing it punishes working- and middle-class commuters and benefits the wealthy, while Kathryn Wylde offers the economic rationale and city-planning defense. The debate touches statistics, fairness, public safety, restaurant and Broadway economics, mass transit deserts, and the broader philosophy of taxation versus user fees.

Key Discussion Points

1. Kathryn Wylde’s Background and Economic Approach

• Wylde explains her longstanding work with the Partnership for New York City, focusing on post-fiscal crisis recovery and fostering NYC's innovation economy.
• Reflects on lost Amazon HQ2 deal, NYC's evolution as a tech hub: “We’re second only to Silicon Valley… but we are an international capital of innovation.” [05:31]

2. The Theory and Purpose of Congestion Pricing

• Wylde: The fee is intended to “provide people with more options, and to invest in a better transit system” [13:39].
• Dworman challenges the policy’s rationale — “Isn’t it just pricing the poor and working class off the roads, so the rich save time?” [08:34]
• Wylde rebuts: “Over 90% of people commuting into Manhattan don’t drive or park, they rely on public transit” [09:09].
• Claims major revenue will come from trucks, and congestion pricing is necessary to fund crucial mass transit upgrades.

3. Socioeconomic Fairness and Anecdotal Pushback

• Dworman presents detailed examples: older workers, musicians, single moms, healthcare workers—often from transit deserts—who rely on their cars and park on the street, not in expensive garages. [12:00]
• Wylde claims driving is often a matter of "habit" and that improved public transit and buses will address these access gaps.
• Dworman pushes back: “But what year will those transit improvements actually reach these neighborhoods?” [13:50]
• Wylde: Upgrades are “constantly coming online,” but timelines are vague; new investments are ongoing. [15:05]

4. Data Battle: Impact on Broadway, Restaurants, and Ridership

• Discussion of impact on weekend business traffic from NJ, using tunnel stats and restaurant reservation data.
• Wylde: “Broadway attendance has gone up 21%.” [17:44]
• Dworman disputes stats: “That’s not true...I have the stats…” [17:52]
  • Details year-over-year increases/decreases, positing the pandemic may explain changes more than pricing.
• Wylde: “Theater owners are satisfied. Business is up… foot traffic is up; cabs are up 10%…” [23:03]
• Dworman persists: “My reservations are down while restaurants in Boston are up even more.” [27:46]
• Both agree congestion pricing’s true economic impact remains hard to isolate from other trends [29:12].

5. The Affordability Crisis and Alternatives

• Wylde: NYC is now the 3rd most expensive city in the world, with high costs stemming from taxes, fares, and now fees. “The problem is…the choice was adding a toll…or raising fares more or adding yet another tax.” [32:07]
• Dworman: “How do other U.S. cities manage without congestion pricing? We’re the richest city…” [33:25]
• Wylde: "We have a 21%+ poverty rate…We are not the richest city." [33:49]

6. Public Safety & Mass Transit Quality

• Dworman asserts that the city must first ensure public transit is clean and safe — recounts several employee assaults, shows violent NYC subway videos, and features a TikTok commentary (“Y’all are not gonna get me to take the train. It’s dangerous… You can get on the train and lose your life just going to work…”) [45:10]
• Wylde: “I take the subway all the time,” and insists crime is falling, with increased cameras and police presence [35:03, 57:44]
• Dworman counters, “The lives of decision-makers are totally different than those of working-class commuters… you wouldn’t make your daughter ride these subways at night.” [35:03]

7. The Redistribution Question and Long-Term Vision

• Dworman cites James Surowiecki: "The wealthier you are, the easier it is to trade money for time. Poorer people can avoid the toll by not driving—but that doesn't make them better off… Any fair plan must redistribute the money to help them." [58:00]
• Wylde insists: revenues are legally dedicated to MTA upgrades, with first funds going to more buses in southeast Queens [59:10, 60:39]

8. Policy Design Critiques

• Why does the fee apply all night? Why so broadly? Dworman: “This is just a money grab… to make revenue, not reduce congestion at 11PM.” [69:46, 70:23]
• Wylde: “Yes, revenues matter, but the fee is lower at night. Trucks are incentivized to deliver overnight… and it maintains funding for transit improvements.” [70:23]

9. Proving Success and Willingness to Walk Back

• Dworman: “What statistical measures would make you agree this isn’t working?” [62:13]
• Wylde: “If traffic gets worse,” conceding that, so far, congestion pricing is reducing traffic, but she was initially concerned $9 might not suffice. [62:27]
• Host Dan: If data eventually show unintended consequences, will the city reverse course? Dworman is skeptical: “They’ll never undo it.” [52:51]
• Both agree New York has a major cost and affordability problem, and the city is reaching a point where new revenues must come from somewhere — though neither side concedes on principle.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Fairness:
  • Noam Dworman (08:34): “The theory of congestion pricing… is to price the poor people and working class people off the roads so that we who can afford it… can get to work faster… that out of the gate repulses me.”
  • Kathryn Wylde (13:39): “It is a function of habit, and … not having good enough transit… The reason for raising the toll is to pay for a system that is more adequate.”
• On Data and Evidence:
  • Wylde (23:03): “Pedestrian foot traffic in all the business Improvement Districts is up… after congestion pricing.”
  • Dworman (27:46): “If you look at Open Table stats, Boston’s business is up even more, without congestion pricing… You have to control for things…”
• On Transit Deserts:
  • Dworman (14:16): “These are the areas in New York… 15 minutes or more from a subway station. All these people drive… What are they supposed to do?”
• On Public Safety:
  • Dworman (35:03): “The people we are pricing off… we want them to take subways. I would never take a subway… at night… This is… different than the people I’m referring to.”
  • Wylde (35:03): “I take the subway all the time… in Brooklyn, day and night.”
• On Policy Philosophy:
  • Wylde (39:54): “To have that transit system, we have to raise the funds to build it out.”
  • Dworman (49:04): “That’s because they don’t care about the people who are getting out of their way… this is exactly what I’m saying.”
• On Policy Outcome:
  • Wylde (51:53): “Buses are moving substantially.”
  • Dworman (53:01): “You were told over and over: it’s working in London… now that London faded as an example…”
• On Real-life Impact:
  • TikTok quote (45:10): “You literally can get on the train and lose your life just going to work… New York City, y’all gotta get it together.”
• On Trade-offs and Long Timelines:
  • Dworman (61:38): “Phase Two [2nd Ave subway] planned to be finished by 2032… The people you’re talking about are going to be old by then. They’re going to suffer.”
  • Wylde (66:48): “We have express buses. I have one in front of my house… These improvements are happening now.”

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Wylde’s background: [02:17-06:00]
• Noam’s moral critique of congestion pricing: [07:44-10:30]
• Arguments about who really drives into Manhattan and who is affected: [12:00-16:50]
• Data/statistics duel (Broadway, restaurants): [17:37-30:11]
• Public safety and transit quality debate: [34:22-38:14]
• TikTok commuter’s real-life pushback: [45:10-46:35]
• Policy design (overnight charges, business impact): [69:46-70:43]
• Endgame: Will the city walk it back if data don’t support it? [62:13-63:10]

Tone & Final Thoughts

• The episode is combative, funny, and intellectually energizing, mixing spreadsheet metrics, fiery anecdotes, and high-level policy theory—with both host and guest showing flashes of exasperation, wit, and empathy.
• Wylde stands firm that “congestion pricing is for the people who don’t have the resources to drive into Manhattan every day” [65:39]; Dworman insists those people “won’t see relief for decades, if ever” [61:38, 66:11].
• Both agree the city is at a crossroads of affordability and infrastructure decay, but disagree heatedly on whether congestion pricing is fair, effective—or a ‘money grab’ that only deepens urban divides.

Summary Takeaway:
This episode offers a raw, unfiltered look at one of New York’s hottest controversies, pitting quality-of-life arguments against cold economics, and connecting city planning to on-the-ground realities for all classes of New Yorkers. A must-listen for anyone interested in urban policy, social justice, and (of course) the many shades of New York City opinion.