Signal Scandal and the Darryl Cooper (@MartyrMade) Twitter Argument

Summary

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The Comedy Cellar: Live from the Table

Episode: Signal Scandal and the Darryl Cooper (@MartyrMade) Twitter Argument
Date: March 27, 2025
Host: Dan Natterman, Noam Dworman, Periel Aschenbrand
Special Guest (late arrival): David Kaufman

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Overview

This episode features a lively, in-depth discussion among Comedy Cellar regulars about two contentious topics:

• The “Signal Group Chat” mishap involving the Trump administration and accidental leaks to The Atlantic’s Jeffrey Goldberg.
• An extensive, brutally honest assessment of Noam Dworman’s public falling-out and Twitter feud with independent historian-podcaster Daryl Cooper (@martyrmade), focusing on debates over antisemitism, historical sources, and the ethics of platforming revisionist World War II claims.

The episode is rich with sharp banter, candid personal anecdotes, and a combative, unfiltered “at the table” dynamic. It blends insider Comedy Cellar talk (including business updates and backstage gossip) with substantive discussion of Jewish identity and internet-age historical revisionism.

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Comedy Cellar News: "The McDonald's Room" (00:00–04:09)

• Dan Natterman brings up recent set performances and receiving more Sunday stage time, doubting if compliments have translated to tangible results.
• Noam Dworman confirms positive feedback from Esti (the booker) and jokes about Dan’s inability to take compliments, launching into an aside about the importance of “the hang” (social atmosphere for comics).
• Discussion about a new venue being built out in a former McDonald’s—no dedicated hangout lounge, will use tables instead of theater seating, trying to preserve the Olive Tree Cafe’s central role as social HQ for comedians.

Memorable exchange:

• "You have a very hard time taking a compliment." —Periel Aschenbrand (01:01)

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Segment 1: The "Signal Group Chat" Scandal (04:09–21:07)

What Happened? (05:10–07:12)

• The Trump administration accidentally added Jeffrey Goldberg, editor of The Atlantic, to a Signal encrypted group chat discussing war plans.
• Goldberg published select details only after the relevant event, not while it was ongoing.

Notable quote:

• "If you actually cared about the security of the country, why would you publish that?" —Periel (06:38)
• "No, he didn't do anything wrong... it was only after the issue was moot, after the attack had taken place." —Noam (07:02)

The Real Issue: Organizational Trust (11:52–17:21)

• Noam draws an analogy from his business: just as an employee throwing a cigarette butt and nearly burning the club down is a catastrophic error, it’s not necessarily the worst lapse.
• The real problem comes when, in the Signal chat, Senator J.D. Vance signals doubt about Trump’s awareness of the ramifications of a proposed military operation but still passively agrees to go along.
• Noam insists: in a hierarchy, you must either present your objections directly, get behind the decision, or resign. Expressing internal doubts to peers but not the leader is "undermining."
• He sees Vance’s conduct as "treacherous" and allowing for “I told you so” self-protection if things go wrong:

Highlighted moments:

• "Who throws a cigarette butt in a garbage...Who talks about war plans on a signal app? ...People can make terrible mistakes, and that's not the story. The story is... J.D. Vance says, 'Well, I don't know if the President's aware of these reasons why this is really not a good idea, but, you know, I'll pray for it.'... This is absolutely unacceptable." —Noam (12:12–14:54)

• "Your whole job is to give the president the benefit of your wisest counsel. There’s no way out here for this guy." —Noam (16:19)

Political Civics Interlude (19:20–21:07)

• Light banter about American civics: Can the president fire the vice president? No, because VP is elected on the ticket.
• Recap of why the VP is on the same ticket as the president, referencing early American history.

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Segment 2: The Noam Dworman–Darryl Cooper Twitter Feud (21:08–46:32)

Setting the Scene: Who Is Darryl Cooper? (21:09–23:10)

• Darryl Cooper is introduced as a popular, self-taught podcaster and historian ("MartyrMade") recently on Joe Rogan and previously controversial for arguments aired on Tucker Carlson.
• Known for “Fear and Loathing in New Jerusalem"—a history of Zionism viewed as anti-Israeli but substantive and nuanced.

Noam's Past Relationship & Defense (23:10–26:26)

• Noam explains his early interest in and even affinity for Cooper, enjoying intellectual sparring and defending Cooper publicly against minor missteps (e.g. accidentally misstating Hitler’s birthplace).

• "He answered direct questions... didn't take things personally... there's something about him that speaks to a person like me. I like to be constantly sparring with the smartest of those people, because this is a good knife sharpening process." —Noam (24:13)

The Logo Artist Controversy (27:01–31:19)

• Noam reveals that MartyrMade’s logo artist, Arthur Kwon Lee, is a highly skilled but virulently antisemitic propagandist, sharing a sample of his rhetoric (29:31) filled with "synagogue of Satan" conspiracies linking Judaism to Satanism.

• Noam calls out Cooper’s shifting narrative: first claiming he didn’t know Lee’s politics, then later calling him “the great Arthur Kwon Lee.”

• "I always feel a bit betrayed when I see an Asian anti-Semite. I thought we kind of had an understanding." —Dan (31:01)

The Tucker and Rogan Episodes: Cooper’s World War II Claims (34:52–39:49)

• Cooper accused of suggesting Churchill was “installed by Zionist financiers” and that Jewish interests caused WWII, drawing on arguments from Holocaust-denier David Irving.
• Noam is incensed by the Joe Rogan episode’s whitewashing of the controversy—portraying Cooper as victim of cancel culture, not a platform for conspiratorial claims.

Key moment:
"What offended me was they totally whitewashed the Tucker interview. He got in trouble for saying that Churchill was installed by Zionist financiers that he owed money to and that World War II... was simply a product of pursuing Jewish interests. And he got this from David Irving, and then he admitted he got it from David Irving." —Noam (35:39)

The Demand for Sources—and the Twitter Dogpile (41:57–45:59)

• Noam describes repeatedly requesting Cooper’s sources for revisionist history claims (e.g., Hitler’s alleged opposition to Kristallnacht violence), tracing them to Irving’s widely discredited work (and the “Lying About Hitler” exposé by Richard Evans).

• Upon challenging Cooper, Noam is targeted by an onslaught of antisemitic abuse from Cooper’s followers. He stresses how Cooper never condemned or corrected these attacks.

• "I posted a video... Just Jew, what's it like to be a Jew? How... to have to make a law to be a people that's so odious... I mean, Jew, Jew, Jew, one Nazi orgy descended on me... Daryl didn't correct a single person. Not one fucking thing." —Noam (44:00)

Noam’s Final Word — Accountability, Integrity (47:48–50:04)

• Noam says he acted with “absolute integrity and responsibility”: he didn’t call out Cooper’s use of denier sources until after extensive private and scholarly research; will publicly apologize if proven wrong, but doubts he is.
• He draws the line at Cooper’s tacit approval of bigoted fans: “What I will not turn out to be wrong about is he sat by when people attacked me in an antisemitic orgy...That can't be undone. He did that 100%."

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Segment 3: Jewish Identity and the Limits of "Opting Out" (50:04–52:16; Guest: David Kaufman)

• David Kaufman arrives, offering historical and personal context on Jewish identity: referencing his own mixed African American–Jewish heritage, he compares attempts by progressive, anti-Zionist Jews to “opt out” of Jewishness to house slaves expecting not to be treated as slaves (51:04).
• Emphasizes that anti-Jewish hate doesn’t see distinctions—"there weren’t gas chamber exceptions for Jews the Nazis liked."

Highlighted quote:

• "These Jews don’t seem to understand, whether they’re a house Jew or field Jew or court Jew...they’re still Jews. The folks who don’t like us don’t see any difference between any of us. We are all the same to them." —David Kaufman (52:04)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Who talks about war plans on a signal app? ...People can make terrible mistakes, and that’s not the story...” —Noam (12:12)
• “If I have a manager, I say listen, we’re going to have this policy... and she goes to the staff after... ‘Noam wants you to do this, I don’t know if he’s aware why it’s a bad idea’... This completely undermines the organization.” —Noam (14:26)
• “He’s claiming, ‘I’m going to keep it to myself.’ By doing that... he’s actually not keeping it to himself.” —Noam (15:55)
• “Your whole job is to give the president the benefit of your wisest counsel. There’s no way out here for this guy." —Noam (16:19)
• “I always feel a bit betrayed when I see an Asian anti-Semite. I thought we kinda had an understanding.” —Dan (31:01)
• “He got in trouble for saying that Churchill was installed by Zionist financiers... and he got this from David Irving. And then he admitted he got it from David Irving.” —Noam (35:39)
• “This is no longer plausible to me. This guy knows 100%... what the judge said in the David Irving trial... he knows exactly what’s in the Richard Evans book.” —Noam (40:07)
• "What I will not turn out to be wrong about is he sat by when people attacked me in an anti-Semitic orgy...That cannot be undone. He did that 100%.” —Noam (48:39)
• “There weren't gas chamber exceptions for like the Jews that the Nazis like... The folks who don’t like us don’t see any difference between any of us. We are all the same to them.” —David Kaufman (52:13)

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Recap & Tone

The episode is raw and confrontational, rooted in Comedy Cellar’s tradition of no-bullshit, unfiltered dialogue. Noam takes center stage, laying out a detailed indictment of Daryl Cooper’s revisionist history and online community—and reflecting on inability to sustain intellectual friendship in the face of what he sees as grave ethical lapses.

Lively asides, self-deprecating jokes, and the heated honesty of the Cellar table keep the heavy talk brisk and engaging. Through the controversy, the hosts never lose sight of the importance of integrity, accountability, and the unvarnished struggle over history, identity, and truth in the public square.

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Transcript

[A]

This is live from the Table, the official podcast of the world famous comedy seller. We are available wherever you get your podcast. Available on demand on Sirius satellite radio, available on YouTube for that multimedia experience. This is Dan Natterman, comedy seller, regular, ish, here with Noam Dorman, the owner of the comedy.

[B]

I thought you're back, Dan. I heard esti she was all excited about your new set.

[A]

Well, she was. I haven't necessarily seen it manifested in the spots.

[B]

She. She's afraid the audience might not be there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

No, she. She was very enthusiastic about you.

[A]

What no one was referring to as sd happened to watch my set a couple of weeks ago and then. And of course I was a little bit nervous, but any case. But it went well and a lot of stuff she hadn't seen, so she complimented me and.

[B]

Oh no, she was. She was over the moon.

[A]

Well, anyway, so I guess I. Well, I got two spots on Sunday, which is unusual for during the week. So maybe that was. That was as a result of that.

[C]

You have a very hard time taking a compliment.

[A]

No, I understand that she complimented me, but I'm just. I don't know that it has manifested itself.

[C]

Well, you just said you got two more spots on a Sunday.

[A]

Yeah, so maybe, maybe it has. I usually don't put in for Sunday, but I put in for Sunday and I got two, which is usually on a weekday. I only get one, so. So maybe that might have been as a result.

[C]

Sounds like that's like a 50% increase.

[A]

Well, all right, yeah, maybe. And maybe it is. Or maybe Sunday they don't have a lot of people. Again, I don't usually put in for Sunday. It's unusual unless there's a holiday the next day. Anyway, that's Periel Aschenbranch. He's with us as well. Periel is a comedian, author, and our producer. And we don't have a guest today because there was a. There was a mix up. David Coffin was supposed to be joining us. He's not here because he thought it was tomorrow, but it's today, so he's not here. So we're here, but we have stuff to talk about.

[C]

We have a lot to talk about.

[A]

I know Noam has some stuff to talk about in terms of his Twitter feuds, but before we do that, Noam, can I ask you a question about the new room? The so called McDonald's room?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Just by way of review, NOAM bought the McDonald's around the corner from the Comedy Cellar. He's converting it into a. A comedy theater. If you will?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And my question is as follows. Will there be a hangout lounge type place there? No, there will not be. Okay. And the reason I bring that up is because, you know, the hang is very important. A couple of weeks ago, they were. They were filming a movie here at the Comedy Cellar. And so the Olive Tree Cafe, the restaurant above the showroom, was closed. And it really, really makes a difference in terms of the comics enjoyment of the experience because we had no place to hang out. So I was hoping that perhaps there would be a hangout place. I guess there's.

[B]

There's no room for it. It's a small room, but also, why.

[C]

Would you want to move the hangout? Like, then you're just diluting it. Like, you don't want half the people in one room and half the people in the other room.

[B]

That's true, too.

[A]

You mean the hangout here at the Olive Tree?

[C]

Yeah. You want the hang to be at the Olive Tree. If you put in a cool space base someplace else, then nobody's going to come here. That doesn't make any sense.

[A]

Well, that's a good point, Perry. I guess it depends. I mean, sometimes there's not a lot of room here. In any case. Or on Music Night. Not everybody enjoys the music night because you can't talk.

[C]

Well, that's a different thing. You're not going to open up a room around the corner, and then everybody's gonna go around the corner.

[A]

Not everybody's gonna go around the corner. Some people will go around the corner. You'll have a choice. But anyway, that's irrelevant because there will be no hangout room at the New. And. And. And just one more question. Is it gonna be tables or is it gonna be theater style?

[B]

Tables. Tables. Just. Just commissar style.

[A]

Okay. Even in the balcony?

[B]

Even in the balcony, yes.

[A]

Okay. And that's. Hopefully we'll be opening sometime in 2025. Anyway, that's enough comedy seller business because I know Noam has much to discuss regarding his.

[B]

Not much to discuss, but through some sort of scheduling mishap, our guest. This is the second time this has happened to us in eight weeks or so.

[C]

It is?

[B]

Yeah. Drew Pavlo also didn't.

[C]

That was a thousand percent not my fault. I'm taking.

[B]

What percentage is this one your fault?

[C]

100%.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yeah. Because I should.

[B]

You know, that means everything.

[C]

Yeah, it's my fault. I didn't catch. He. He. He screwed up the day and I didn't catch it. Why? It's okay.

[B]

I'd love to See those emails?

[C]

I'm happy to show them to you. You know that I'm many things, but a liar is not one of them, right? I mean, you know that.

[B]

Yes, I do know that. So I'm certainly only a lie if you believe it. Never. Yeah, it's never. It's not a lie if you don't. It's not a lie if you believe it, Perry.

[C]

So let's go Back to the February 25th when I said we don't have to.

[B]

We don'. I can see people switching their dials already. So what's your question, Dan?

[A]

Well, that was my question regarding the new room.

[B]

Right. What's your question now?

[A]

Well, now my question is. Well, I was just gonna move it over to you because you've been having a Twitter war. You've been very active on Twitter, or X, I guess they call it. But I still think Twitter is a better.

[B]

First of all, can we talk about the Jeffrey Goldberg Trump Team signal? Group chat.

[C]

Insane.

[A]

You'd have to review it for me, because I'm not Dan.

[B]

Okay?

[C]

You don't know what happened. Even I know what happened.

[B]

What happened for you?

[C]

The Trump administration sent out, and it's a group chat, text message about their plan.

[B]

Can you let me just. Before go there, can you say text message, not text message? Is it possible? Can you actually just say text message? You know how many. You know how many seconds you add to everything? Like. Like combine all the. All the extra trail of words adds up to? We. That's why you run out of time with guests sometimes somebody say.

[C]

I'm sure that's why we run.

[B]

Repeat after me.

[C]

Text message, text message.

[B]

Okay, go ahead. Say it all again. Go ahead.

[C]

The Trump administration sent a text message to a group chat about their plans to go to war, and they.

[B]

To war? Yeah.

[C]

CC'd the editor of the Atlantic, whose name is. I don't remember.

[B]

Jeffrey Goldberg. They didn't CC him. He was part of the group by accident, we presume by accident.

[C]

Now, the thing that I find really ridiculous, except for everything, is that he went on this rampage about how irresponsible it was and what, like a breach of security and maybe, you know, treason or whatever. All this shit, which he's not wrong. But then he published it, which seems so egregious. Like, if you actually cared about the security of the country, why would you publish that?

[B]

No, he didn't do anything wrong. He. He. First of all, he didn't publish everything as far as we know. And to the extent he did, it was only after the issue was moot, after the attack had taken place.

[C]

Oh, I didn't know that. Is that true?

[B]

Yeah, of course it's true. Nobody's accusing him of divulging secrets. Okay, so, okay, so there's this whole thing between Waltz and who's the national security advisor and Hegseth and Vance and all these other people. I don't, I don't keep track of all the names the administration like some people, like real journalists do. But I think everybody's missing the point about this. First of all, in no particular order, yes, they're probably not supposed to communicate on a signal app, but I have a feeling, and we'll know soon enough that a signal app, you know, which is a encrypted text messaging service, I bet you this is pretty secure, as secure as a, as any other encrypted technology. I know that law enforcement can't get in on it. And you know, people in the administrations, they talk on the phone, you know, it's not like they don't communicate about things. And we also know that in a bipartisan way they become too casual about this stuff. Look, Hillary Clinton had a friggin server set up in her in a closet. You know what, didn't even keep the Linux kernel up to date in terms of security measures. And they actually had some technically classified material on that server. People argue about how serious, what level of classification, but it was irresponsible. So maybe they, they, in this chat they said some things that were secured, classified, maybe they didn't, I don't know. I certainly they shouldn't have been doing that. And in a bipartisan way, it's clear that keeping, preventing federal cabinet members from becoming too casual about the demands and the importance of security. This is a problem, as it often is in many types of things, where you just get complacent, right? So Trump, you know, needs to put his foot down about that. So that's that. But that is not, I think, what Trump needs to be upset about because I've had my best employees give him enough time, do horrible, horrible, make horrible, horrible mistakes, catastrophic mistakes. You know, I had one employee almost burn the place down at a time when they were forbidden to be smoking in the premises. Actually, can I digress to a little story here? This is great, said an employee. I was on my honeymoon at the time. I had an employee. Let me start again. I was on my honeymoon at the time and I got a call that there was a fire in the Fat Boy Pussycat. Pretty serious fire. The sprinklers came on and all that. I was on my honeymoon. The place didn't burn down, but it definitely was close to burning down. You know, for the. For a sprinkler system in a business to go off, it has to be a very, very hot situation. Because these sprinklers, they ruin everything. So they don't just go off easily. Sprinklers went off, put the fire out. So the fire department came and they traced it down. The fire department is amazing. Oh, my God, these forensics are amazing. They traced it down to a particular transformer on a computer that we had on the bar. The power supply overheated and started this fire. I said, wow. I said, I'd like to. I'd like to see that. So I asked Tony to get me the video of the. You know, when the fire started. I wanted to see what happened.

[A]

Can they tell you when it started?

[B]

Yeah, we know exactly when everything. So. So. So Tony gets the. The video. And what we see is the manager toss his cigarette buck in the fire in the trash can. The trash can lights up on fire and almost burns down the whole thing. Meaning. So the funny part about this story is that the fire department didn't know what the hell they were talking about. And you know what? They used this kind of stuff in evidence to put people in jail. Right. We sent our forensic team out there and we traced it down. This is how the fire started. It was this transformer. It's all bullshit. It was just a cigarette butt in the. In the trash can.

[C]

Wait, you literally saw somebody?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we saw the whole thing. So it was.

[A]

But how do you know that. That it was. And you saw the fire?

[B]

Yes. You saw the whole thing. It's not even like you saw him throw the butt. The fire starts, he throws the butt. He.

[A]

Did he see the fire start?

[B]

No, he threw the butt on his way out the door. He's leaving. They throw the butt. They leave the fire. The trash can goes. It had nothing to do with the computer. It's all. It's just. It's hilarious. Right? So anyway, so.

[C]

So just say that it was hilarious at the time.

[B]

No, I didn't. But I didn't fire him. He was a good. I understood. Like, this is a terrible mistake, but.

[C]

Who throws a cigarette button a garbage.

[B]

I know. My. That's my point. Who talks about war plans on a signal app? I'm just saying that people can make terrible mistakes, and that's not the story. I'm getting to the story now. The story is in that in that signal conversation, J.D. vance says, well, I don't know if the President's aware of these reasons why this is really not a good idea. But, you know, all right, if he's, if he's gonna do it, you know, I'll pray for it, Pray for it to work. This kind of stuff. Now, this is absolutely unacceptable. If I have a manager, general manager, I say, listen, we're going to have this policy. We're going to implement whatever it is. And she then goes to the staff after the decision has been made and says, listen, Noam wants you to do this. I, I don't know if NOM's aware of these five reasons why it's a bad idea, but. But that's what you got to do. This completely undermines the organization. What you're saying is that the guy in charge is not aware of the, you know, why he shouldn't be doing this. This is. It's either a completely naive guy who doesn't, you know, doesn't have the, the wisdom to be in that position. I was going to say experience, but I knew this kind of thing when I was 21 years old. I would have known better. Or it's treacherous. And then if you follow it a.

[A]

Step further, what he should have done is present it to Trump saying, here are some reasons.

[B]

Yeah, if he feels this way. When you meet with the President, Mr. President, I want to call your attention to these factors. And if the President says, yes, but on balance, I think it's the right thing to do, then you get behind it. And to the other 18 people, you say, this is what we're doing. This is the President. This is our decision. Or you say, you know, Mr. President, I can't abide by this. I think this is not national. I might have to resign. Okay, resign. You know, that's what you do, but what you don't do. And, and, and then if you do agree to carry out the President's orders, even if you might privately think, then you implement them and you try to make them succeed. And you don't make something succeed by sowing doubt among the people whose job it is with. But then take it a step further. Now, let's say it screws up. Let's say, actually Vance was right, that this was a bad idea for some reason, whatever his reasons were, now he's in position to say, I told you so. Now, you can't have your general manager saying, I told you, like this is. So in my opinion. I mean, could you just think about that?

[C]

No, it's insane.

[B]

Yeah. So, you know, um, it would be different if in a total meeting with the president there, everyone says, what do you think? Like, when Biden told Obama in front of Gates and everybody else, I don't think we should go and get bin Laden. Excuse me. That was fine, because that was a deliberation. But once the decision was made, everybody got on board. This was not a deliberation. This was actually. Let me. Let me. Let me find exactly what he said, because there's one quote there which is even. Which is actually really bad, and I. And I am missing it. Oh, that's where he says, I'm willing to support the consensus of the team and keep these concerns to myself. Meaning, like.

[A]

Well, he said this in the. In the. In the.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Keep these concerns to myself. You've already told 18 people. How do you keep it to your. It's so dishonest.

[C]

Are there people in that?

[B]

Yeah, you're not keeping it to yourself. You're actually. This is why. Listen, the guy's not stupid. I think he's treacherous. I think this is. I think this is the lowest of the low. He's claiming. I'm going to keep it to myself. But he's. By doing that, he's. You understand, He's. He's actually not keeping it to himself.

[C]

Of course not.

[B]

What does he mean, I keep it to myself? I'm not going to go public in the New York Times. Like, what do you mean by keep it to yourself? I'm not going to tell the president. But your whole job is to give the president the benefit of your wisest counsel. There's no way out here for this guy. Then Hegseth went on the news and lied through his teeth, and then they tried to claim that Goldberg is a nefarious actor. This is all awful because they look so stupid. I mean, if they could get away with it in a Machiavellian way, at least you could say they're competent, but they're incompetent in their attempts to be Machiavellian. But leaving that all aside, the one. And I don't think this is really what's being spoken about most of all from a point of view of the president, from Trump's point of view, and I think Trump understands very well what it means, what I'm saying. I do not see how Trump can ever have confidence in J.D. vance again. This guy is a bad seed. And who told you so? Who told you so all along? I want to say I told you so, but I mean, I'm not. Am I being too hard on him?

[C]

No, absolutely not. You're completely right.

[B]

What do you think, Dan? Oh, I didn't mean to cut you off.

[C]

You know, he's publicly humiliating.

[B]

Humiliating. Just short.

[A]

But the only thing not humiliating.

[B]

Humiliating.

[A]

You impute nefarious motives and that. And that.

[B]

Well, I would have to say, you know, you always get. You find yourself in this position because it's a backhanded kind of excuse to say well no, it wasn't a virus, he's just an idiot. Like.

[A]

Yeah. You know, possibility.

[C]

No, that's ridiculous.

[B]

It is a possibility sometimes. But I would. I don't think it's a. It's what was going on there because like my, my 11 year old does stuff like this like that. He knows what he's doing. He'll like. He'll implicate his brother in a way that sounds like he's defending him or things like this. You know, he's not stupid. He's. He knows what he's doing.

[A]

Well, what would be the nefarious purpose of this?

[B]

Well, that's a good question. I hadn't thought about this. That's the next logical question. Some people just are toxic that way. And this is generally like when it happens in with my. Within my organization and it's not an uncommon thing to. You know, I understand this dynamic. Their intention is not to screw up the place there. It's driven by some sort of ego defect. The ability to look better to your peers.

[C]

To throw somebody under the bus.

[B]

Yeah. In some. It. It's, it's. It's some. It's something related to an insecurity or some way. It's. It's some, it's some deep ego problem. It's a toxicity that some people. We all know that some people are toxic and they, and they, and they prefer. And they create with them wherever they go. Toxicity. And I think Vance is toxic.

[A]

Well, what do you think? Has anybody else mentioned this particular.

[B]

I haven't followed it that closely. I can't believe I'm the only person. I tweeted it. Yeah.

[C]

Can the president fire the vice president?

[B]

No video. Dan?

[A]

Well, I don't know. You have chat.

[B]

You don't know that. You know that. Of course not. He's elected an elected official so impeachment is the only thing he's not going to impeach.

[C]

What do you mean though? What do you mean he's an elected official. Didn't. You can pick. You pick the vice president. You can pick whoever you want. He doesn't have to get elected. Right.

[A]

Well, he's on the ticket with the president.

[C]

Fine. But Trump, like, you don't have to go through any process. You can pick anybody you want.

[B]

Yes, but in the end, he's elected. He's not. He's not. He's not a cabinet official. He's not. He wasn't. After Trump is elected, he doesn't then pick the vice president.

[C]

Right.

[B]

He's elected. The voters have sealed that. And that's that. That's okay. I like the podcast to be a remedial civic.

[A]

Well, a lot of people need that.

[B]

I know, I know.

[A]

I mean, I. I didn't know offhand. I guess it makes sense, you know, but it would make sense the other way, too. I mean, because the president did pick the vice president.

[B]

You did know. You're just not remembering that initially the vice president and the. And the president was elected separately. And then that led to that weird thing where the vice president was of the opposing party with Aaron Burr, whatever it was. So there was an amendment passed to, you know, to create the ticket system.

[C]

All right, let's move on.

[B]

Whoever had the second. Second number of electoral votes was.

[A]

Was the vice president.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You remember that, right, Dan?

[A]

Yeah, I remember that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

How come you're not asking me if I remember that?

[B]

Because obviously, do you remember that?

[C]

No, I don't.

[B]

You were smoking pot. So then. Okay, so that's that, then. What else?

[C]

The Twitter war.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You walked in here and you said, you're gonna get checked.

[A]

No, If I could just brief. Just brief back background. Noam has a friendship with this cat named Daryl Cooper, AKA Martyr, made on X or Twitter, who is a. Well, he presents himself as a historian. He's not credentialed. He doesn't have a PhD, but you don't have to.

[B]

You don't have to.

[A]

He's well read. And he has a history podcast called Martyr Maid, I guess, is the name of the podcast. I don't know why he calls himself that, but. A reference to some Greek thing?

[B]

No, I think it's a reference to religion and Jesus being a mortal. I don't know for sure. Well, anyway, I mean, it's a theme. It's a theme. I really don't know, but I know it's a theme in many conflicts. And I think he feels empathy for the martyrs, I think, in some way.

[A]

Well, in any case, including cheese. He has a popular history podcast. He was on Tucker Carlson, and that made a lot of noise because he basically said that Churchill was the number one villain of World War II.

[B]

Just to be fair, he did preface it by saying he might be kind of hyperbolic. But then he went on to make the argument that Churchill was at least a significant villain of the 20th century. That would not be hyperbole.

[A]

He also said that Hitler was. He said on Tucker that Hitler was installed by financiers and Zionists. He later disclaimed that and said there's no evidence for that. But that's.

[B]

Did he say there's no evidence for that?

[A]

Well, he tweeted something saying that he can't say with certainty whether that's not.

[B]

The same thing as no evidence yet.

[A]

I'm not sure what he said, but he disclaimed it somewhat.

[B]

And he wouldn't debate with Andrew Roberts, who is the, I think, the preeminent Churchill historian in the world.

[A]

And he was on Joe Rogan recently, and I guess he reiterated some of those talking points about Churchill, I gather. I didn't see the interview, but look.

[B]

I feel bad about this. I had a. So Daryl first came on my radar. I think I heard about him through Dave Smith, and I listened to some of his Fear and Loathing in New Jerusalem. Is that what it's called?

[A]

Yeah, I think that's the history of Zionism.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, I would actually recommend. I wouldn't recommend it as the only source on the conflict, but I would recommend that people who know about the conflict and are taking in various points of perspectives on it. Yeah. That this would. That there is much in this very, very long. I didn't. To be honest, I didn't listen to the whole thing. Not because I was not interested. I often don't finish things. I would like to finish it. And it was a. To me, it was a, you know, kind of narrative, you know, an anti Israeli, anti Zionist version of the. The conflict. But it was filled with richness. Richness in. In facts, richness in insight into psychological workings of people. Like the way he described, like, the. The Muslim honor culture and how that had to exist without the organizations of judiciaries. And it was just a lot of very, very interesting stuff. He talked about just one thing that comes to mind, like how Prince Faisal brought a slave to the Paris Peace Conference after World War I. Just like bringing the past into the president as a talented storyteller, you know, and then I had some exchanges with him, and I found him to be a kindred. This is what I felt at the time, a kindred spirit in a way that he would answer direct questions he didn't bullshit. He was, he was, he didn't take things personally as, as in a certain way. He's still not. Even now that we're having our, our blow up. He's there, There was a, there's something about him that, you know, speaks to a person like me. Is there some, there's some connection with him that. This was much of the chagrin of many, many people that I know. Influential people upset with me. And I did. And I defended him more than once on Twitter. Even recently on the Rogan thing. I'm jumping around time when people were saying because he misstated or he said.

[A]

Hitler was born in Germany or something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, Hitler was born, raised, born in Germany. Either he misstated or he was making a different point. And people saying, you see, the historian doesn't even know that Hitler was born in Germany. I'm like, come on, that's ridiculous. Of course he knows Hitler was born in Austria. Everybody knows Hitler was born in Austria. Nobody knows that much about World War II and doesn't know this. Like, why you. So you know, and he's defended me at times. I was the reason. He had that famous tweet about that where he had the, the Nazis juxtaposed to the, the Last Supper at the Paris Olympics, the trans version of the Last Supper. Do you remember that?

[A]

Yes. And he said, well, the, the outcome.

[B]

I prefer this to that.

[A]

He preferred the Nazis.

[B]

And, and I wrote him and, and he took it down because of that. And when somebody asked him why did he take it down? I believe this is all about saying, he says, well, you know, Norm was right, as he usually is. So, you know, as I'm recounting these things, it's painful for me because I think, I think I've scuttled that relationship that, that I was happy to have that relationship. I like to have people that I disagree with, especially if I'm gonna. And I like to be constantly sparring with the smartest of those people because this is a good knife sharpening process. Right? And I liked him. I just a little bit before this whole thing blew up and, and it's my fault. It blew up. Blew up. I emailed him and said, why don't you. When are you coming to town? I really want to have sit down and have a beer and I want to talk to you about shit. There's so much going on and I prefer, you know, in a certain way to not be talking on the podcast. I'm not, as you guys know. Do you're it upsets you. I'm not looking for clicks and all that stuff. I many times prefer just to sit in the olive tree with somebody, but I can't always do that. So. But you can invite them to the podcast, right? So. But anyway, so to go back. So the. When, when the Tucker thing first happened, I didn't even. I just thought he was this guy in the. On the Arab Israeli conflict. And I didn't know there was this fascination about the Nazis and all that stuff. I didn't know that his logo was painted by a vicious. You know, like one of the most I posted is on Twitter today. One of the most, actually. Tiana, do you have that video I sent to you today? You can just. Actually you can, you can. You can play. I just give you. I was going to talk about something else, but I happen to have it. So, like, this is the guy who did Daryl's painting, the martyr maid logo painting. Go ahead, play that, Tiana.

[D]

This is Anton Levey, the founder of the satanic temple formerly known as Howard Sentinel. Unapologetic Jewish Zionists who revered the protocols of the Elders of Zion, who vigorously worked with Zionist extremist organizations.

[B]

Can you pause it for a second.

[D]

Weaponry into Israel whilst committing.

[B]

If you're listening and not watching this as he's talking, there's all kinds of images of Jewish things. Jewish logos, Jewish people, Juju. Go ahead, continue, Tiana.

[D]

Ask genocide onto innocent lives in Palestine. So much bloodshed, so much innocence raped and pillaged, all in the name of religious superiority over the gentiles. Understand this man writing the Satanic Bible and having the cosine of this very demonic tone by Asaph Dayan, the son of Israel's defense Prime Minister Moshe Dayan is not just a coincidence because there are two types of Satanism represented in the culture. First, we have the atheists larping and playing Dungeons and Dragons. This demographic is controlled opposition used to make crusaders like you and I laughably step back in jest. But there's a deeper, more unknown Satanic spirituality that normalizes antinatalism, duplicitous sexual abnormalities, communism for the uninitiated, pedophilia and the sacrificing of God's non chosen cattle. And those practitioners worship at the altar of the synagogue of Satan. They lift their hands gallivanting towards the Tsar. Rem Fam. With such sheer arrogance and entitlement just to mock good Christian families further into humiliation in their own country. Look, it's always good versus evil. Heaven and hell, Christ and Lucifer and Christianity against Satanism and the true satanic temple, my friends is not about red horns and a pitchfork. That's what they want you to believe. True Satanism is ideologically subverting the populace with perversion to sacrificially fund sin, evil whilst at the same time by the way undermining the very identity of those said people. Because Talmudic Judaism is a stepping stone towards Satanism.

[B]

So this guy, first of all this, this is Arthur Kwan Lee. He's, he's an artist. He's very good. Right? He's very good price.

[A]

He's a good looking dude.

[B]

He's like a Bond villain. But anyway, so so this guy, what a coincidence. So this guy did martyr maids logo. So so when I first asked Daryl about this as. Yeah he did but I didn't know his politics at the time. I don't know how he got into that Nazis like he really like, he's like. I met him a couple times like just at a kind of a matter of fact way, you know, but I didn't like.

[A]

So he's a real guy. He met him because, because Tiana was saying he, he looks like he's an AI generated.

[B]

No, no, it's an absolute real guy. You can look him up. He's a good artist.

[A]

So he's quite good looking, don't you think?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, he's very, very aerodynamic looking. Anyway, so, so. But then like just. I'm jumping around in time again just like. So that's what Daryl said. But just like last week he tweeted something about his guy says blah blah blah by the great and uses the term the great Arthur Kwan Lee. So I'm like all right, Darrell. You know, I always feel a bit.

[A]

Betrayed when I see an Asian anti Semite. I thought we kind of had a, kind of had a, you know, an understanding.

[B]

All right, let's not get all the things. So. So it was an Asian white supremacist. It's even more disconcerting. But I mean Hitler wasn't probably a fan of the Asians. So he's not an Aryan.

[A]

So he liked the Japanese.

[B]

So this is so this is like, you know, so anyway, I didn't know that Daryl had this sympathy for these people. So when the Tucker thing first happened, this accusation about the Zionists and he used the phrase about the. Well he used, he says prisoners ended up dead. But then if you look at the letter that he then quotes where they complaining they don't have the food to feed all these quote unquote prisoners. So it might Be Darryl used the word prisoner. It might be more humane just to find a fact, a fast acting method of killing them all. That was a letter about the Jews. And then later in the letter it talked about it and said, and if that doesn't work, maybe we could just sterilize them. We'll be rid of them in one generation. So this is what he was referring to. Like, holy shit. And, and this all comes from, you know, David Irving, who was a classic Holocaust denier. But I didn't even really know all the David Irving stuff. So then we had that blow up. I had Daryl on my podcast. He answered my questions about this and I really was pretty hard on him. I can post the section. I was pretty hard on many. Answered my questions pretty forthrightly and in a disarming way. Although I wasn't satisfied with the answers. I didn't feel like I even actually, to be honest, he let slip on my podcast that these arguments had come from David Irving and they were defenders of him at the time. Was like, well, we can't jump to the conclusion he got it from that. I remember that. And I didn't clip it and put it out there at the time because I didn't wanna, I don't know, I, I was gun shy. It's like, you know, I'm just gonna, if someone picks up on it, that's fine. But I, I wasn't gonna go and do that. So that was that. And then he went on Tucker. I mean, he went on Joe Rogan recently. And then I began to really get angry because on the Rogan episode, Rogan went on and on about how this is crazy. People are. You're the most thorough and well meaning historian and people just set these things up as something you're not allowed to talk about and there's a concerted effort to ruin you and make sure that you never work again. And there was nothing. You know, I heard that Tucker interview and I can't believe it was controversial. And Daryl actually said, well, I can't absolve myself totally wrong. It's like, no, no, no, this is what. And what they never mentioned in this Rogan interview was that no, he didn't get in trouble for trying to understand the psychology of the Germans in post World War I treaty of Versailles Germany. The victim maybe of, you know, very sophisticated propaganda and, you know, to describe all the cultural currents such that someone might say, well, you know what? There for the grace of God goes I. Maybe if I was a German in Germany at that time, I might have looked the other way also. That kind of inquiry does not offend me. It offends some people. It does not offend me at all. And it's related in some way to Hannah Arendt. You know, the banality of evil. Like, this is important stuff to talk about, unless you want to say, no, the Germans are born evil. I remember saying to my grandmother, but you don't say all German. She goes, no, they're evil. I'm like, no, Grandma, we've had the.

[A]

Same discussion about the. The Old South. If, you know, like, everybody in the Old south thought slavery was okay. If you had been in the Old south, would you have been the one dude, yeah, right. That didn't think that way.

[B]

Right now. Now, I don't want to let the Germans off the hook as much. I left the Old south off the hook because these were their neighbors. And this was the. This was the Germany of Schiller and Ode to Joy and Kellogg, Brian Treaty and never have war again. And, you know, they consider themselves at the. The height of. Of. Of. Of modern civilization and ethics. Right? So. So you. So it's. It's quite a lot when your neighbors just start getting rounded up into ghettos and then. And then disappearing. But nevertheless, it's. It happened to people with the same 46, you know, chromosomes that. That we all have. And so that's not what offended me. What offended me was they totally whitewashed the Tucker interview. He did not get in trouble for that. He got in trouble for saying that Churchill was installed by Zionist financiers that he owed money to and that World War II, the worst catastrophe in the history of planet Earth, was simply a product of pursuing Jewish interests. And he got this from David Irving. And then if you go. And he admitted he got it from David Irving. And then if you go back to the David Irving longer, unabridged version of that argument, he says Churchill actually never concerned himself with the Nazis until then. Until Churchill started getting money from these Jews. He didn't care about Nazi Germany. And I put this on my Twitter feed. And actually, once the Jews bought him, they had only one thing they bought. He had to turn his guns towards Germany. This is. So this is. And he admits this is the David. This is where he got it from. And then he also admitted on his. And his. On his blog that he had discussed this with Tucker the night before. So Tucker heard this argument either for the first time or already knew it. I don't know. And then you can hear Tucker asking once, twice, three times the question, what was Churchill doing? Why did he do it? What motivated him? And then Darrell's like, and Tucker says, that's the wry smile I've ever seen. And then Daryl goes forth with this argument. All of which is to say that Tucker, this fucking creep, he wanted Daryl to make the argument that the war is behind, that the Jews were behind World War II. And by the way, as we know, people of his ilk think, and the Jews are behind the Iraq war. And if you fast forward to more recently, the Jews are behind our support for Ukraine. So this is getting serious.

[A]

What do you make of Daryl's tweet saying, back walking back that argument, I.

[B]

Have to reread it.

[A]

He did.

[B]

I did hold my fire on Darrell. So whatever he said, just like what he says about Arthur Quan Lee, like, he has a good way of saying, diffusing it. Question is whether. Whether it's real or just damage control. And I got to my limit here, where I began to think, you know, what I'm being.

[A]

But does it even matter what he really thinks? It's what he's putting out there?

[B]

No, no, it does matter. It matters. It doesn't change everything. Of course it matters.

[A]

But the harm is what he's putting out there, I think more so than.

[B]

Well, okay, but in terms of my personal estimation of the man, it matters to me whether. So then. And then I began to look into the stuff he said on Rogan, and he says that hit when Hitler heard about Kristallnacht. He called up Goebbels and said, what the hell are you doing? Cut this shit out right now. I said, I never heard that before. So then I went to look into David Irving, and I found myself at the Richard Evans book called Lying About Hitler, which everybody should read. I posted it. I posted an excerpt on my Twitter feed. And this actually is a total David Irving argument, but actually it's a David Ergiven argument that came up in a court case where the judge found that David Irving was lying, was a Holocaust denier, was dishonest about his arguments, dishonest about his sources. You can read all about it. And. And I. And I look, read this book called Lying About Hitler by Richard Evans. And I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's clear. It's clear that by the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence, David Irving was guilty here of lying. And I might say after reading that book, it might even be beyond a reasonable doubt. That is how devastating this book is to the. To David Irving's argument. And I Emailed.

[A]

That argument being that Hitler was against Kristallna.

[B]

Yeah, this is absolutely falsified. And, and you can read. I've been reading the transcript. So, so I, so then I, then I emailed Daryl about it. I might. I hope I don't get the timer wrong. And Daryl's like, well, yeah, I'm sort of familiar with that. I'm not really sure. And then somebody brought it up on Twitter. He's like, yeah, I know something about that David Irving trial, but I'm not really up on the details. And then just by coincidence, a few days earlier, Darrell had tweeted out a pile of books as his sources for the World War II. And there in the pile is Lying about Hitler by Richard Evans. I'm like, what the fuck? There is no way anybody read two chapter one, chapter 20 pages of that book and they forgot because it's the first thing covered in the book. There's no way that somebody read that book and forgot the mound of evidence against this argument. The fact that there was a judicial verdict about it. There's just no way. And I lost my cool. I'm like, fuck it. This is no longer plausible to me. This guy knows 100% these arguments. He knows 100% what the, what the jury, what the judge said in the David Irving Lipstadt trial. He knows exactly what's in the Richard Evans book. He. When he. And the arguments are the same. What about Arthur Kwan Lee? Yeah, Yeah, I didn't, I didn't really know. What about the David? I didn't really know. I'm fuzzy on the. This is, this is. And I, and I, and I, and I. So I. Then I went deep on it and I started exposing that and other things from his presentation, like the fact that after Churchill. I'm sorry, after Hitler was exposed to this book, Germany Must Perish by Theodor Kaufmann, which was a self published book which advocated that we, before World War II, advocated that we eradicate the German race and castrate them, whatever it is. That somehow this led. This was the reason that Hitler made the Jews wear yellow armbands. This is all, this is all disproven.

[A]

He said that on Rogan.

[B]

He said that in, in his podcast. I started picking around and I'm like, you know what? I'm a nice person. And, and I'm an. And I'm a person who can tolerate people I disagree with, but I can't ever. I'm not going to. You can. It's insidious because you back yourself up. You back yourself and you find yourself, like, Bridge over the River Kwai. If anybody's seen that movie where all of a sudden you're covering for the enemy, all of a sudden you've forgotten why you got into this to begin with. I got into this to fight for. Sounds corny. For truth. I want to defend my people. I want to defend them based on truth. I want to call them out when they're. When they're not true. And, you know, I have vouched for this guy. And now my internal switch, it went from, you know, like a toggle switch, it was on the left, then it went to the middle, you know, like this. You know, a toggle switch has a middle position, and it just imperceptibly, it. It switched to on. I'm like, no, I can't anymore. I'm being. I don't believe it anymore. And so I started to ask him for his sources because I did some research about the ethics of historians, and absolutely every post. This is on my Twitter feed as well. Every historian is supposed to leave a trail of their research so anyone can then go back and check it. And as I said in every bar argument, when you have among idiots, you say something, say, what are you talking about? Google it. I mean, how many times do we ask people to show their sources? Just knuckleheads, right? Showing proving to each other, no, I didn't make this up. This is real. Now this guy is doing dozens of hours of history podcasts, and I can't ask him, hey, where'd you get that? Can you back this up? It's. It's the most basic thing in the world. And attack in person. I'm like, what about this? What about this? Did you get this from David Irving? These. And then what happens is immediately his followers. I posted a video of this descended on me. You saw the video, right, Dan?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

With just Jew. What's it like to be a Jew? How. What is it like to have to make a law to be a people that's so odious that they have to make a law against hating you? I mean, just, Jew, Jew, Jew won. After a Nazi orgy descended on me on this guy's.

[A]

What you posted. How much more is there that you didn't post?

[B]

You can go to the thing yourself, but I posted a very high percentage of them. But almost everyone referred to my Judaism. I don't think there was a single comment on his feed saying, you know, criticizing my request for the sources, backing up his sources. Normally when you do something like that, you know, people Start researching and say, no, here it is. Daryl, you know, found it here. Nobody was gainsaying my accusation that these don't come from any place but Holocaust and Irish eyes. It was just a fucking low class Nazi bigoted attack. And Daryl didn't. Didn't correct a single person. Not one fucking thing. Now I noticed on my feed, I didn't actually hear anybody attacking the goyim, nobody attacking the gentiles. Nobody's saying like, like, you know, not that these things never happen, but I didn't, I didn't detect. I didn't see anybody saying anything racist. On my feet, Perry. El, you're screwing up the mic. I didn't take anybody being racist on my feed. And you guys know me well enough. If somebody I say don't do that or I would reprimand them, I would block. I'm not gonna have my feed turn into a string of 30 different racist comments about somebody who argued with me about something. That's all I did. I argued with him about something. I didn't call him names. I didn't attack him. I argue with him about something. Is this David? Yes. Hey. Hey. Come on in. You're hearing the.

[A]

Oh, so David's here.

[B]

Yeah, come sit down. So, so, so that's where we're at now. And you know, I invite everybody to go the thing now, you know, even through this, I'll say the last defense of Daryl. You see, he's not comfortable being a nasty person. He has, he's, he's, he's soft in his wording towards me. Hasn't blocked me.

[A]

He blocked me, by the way.

[B]

Yeah, he, he made some arguments that I think were, you know, not convincing because I think the essence of truth is that he is taking these arguments unskeptically from Holocaust deniers, from people like David Irving. And this guy, I can't remember this, another Holocaust denying tweeter who wrote these two essays about how the Morgenthau plan during the Second war was a result and cribbed from Theodor Kaufman's book Germany Must Perish. This seems to be the basis of the argument that the book was passed around the Roosevelt administration. So I think that, Listen, I hope I haven't hung an innocent man. I mean, it's been out there four or five days already. You know, you'd think that he would have come forward. What are you talking about? No, I didn't take this from David Irving. Here it is, by this credible person. So. And I will, if I'm wrong, I will absolutely apologize if I'm wrong. And by the way, I also consulted even with some experts, people I know. Well, I wrote some historians and I consulted with some. Not professional historians, but people I know who really follow this stuff closely.

[A]

Well, I don't think you need to be a professional historian to know that if somebody says something, it's not inappropriate to say, okay, where are you getting that from?

[B]

Right. No, but I'm saying I didn't go public with the accusation that this was coming from the worst of sketchy sources. I don't wanna have egg on my face and I didn't wanna slander somebody or libel somebody, you know, just because, you know, I don't make an accusation and then find out it was wrong and say, oh, sorry, oops. Like, you know, like so many journalists do. And then the retraction is never seen and he can't wipe that off. I didn't do it lightly. I did not do it lightly. I did it with. With absolute integrity and responsibility. And if it turns out to be wrong, it turns out to be wrong. And I will apologize to Dial Cooper. It might. It might.

[C]

I mean, I don't know.

[A]

You.

[C]

You're constantly giving all of these people who are dancing around in this anti. Semitism, well, let's separate the issues out.

[B]

Let's separate the issues. But even if it does turn out to be wrong on the facts, what cannot, what I will not turn out to be wrong about is that he sat by when people attacked me in an anti Semitic orgy. That's simply for asking him, what are your sources? That. That can't be undone. He. He did that 100%. And when you do that, in some way, you show what you're about. Now, audience capture. This is a real thing. As. Last thing I'm gonna say before we introduce David, it just reminds me of. We talked about this podcast when Norman Finkelstein, like 10 months ago, he didn't want to appear on a dais with this guy, Jackson Hinkle. Do you remember this? And because Jackson Hinkle was just too, too far for Norman Finkelstein, it. Remind me to say one more thing about Daryl immediately on Finkelstein's Twitter feed. His father's like, a Jew is a Jew. We knew you were a Jew all along. What do you expect from a Jew? How did we ever not know you were Jewish at heart all along? So, like, that's. Can you imagine if Daryl, you know, were to. This is what Daryl and Dave Smith and all of them know. This is what they risk. That's why I tweeted out this last scene in the last part of Mickey Mouse, Sorcerer's Apprentice, where Mickey, you know, creates the brooms and. And then the brooms become. He becomes. He can't fight the smell. The smell gets turned on him. So these people, like, they've created these. These armies, their broomsticks, and now they can't control them.

[C]

That's what everybody was saying to Norman Finkelstein, that you're a Jew. A Jew is a Jew.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, that's like that famous joke, right?

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

That anti Zionist Jew and a Zionist Jew walk into a bar and the bartender says, we don't serve Jews.

[E]

Exactly.

[A]

It's not a very funny joke, but it makes a point.

[E]

Well, a lot of Jews, A lot of Jews think they can opt out of being Jewish. Suddenly, they think they can opt out of being a Jewish. They can opt out of anti Semitism, they can opt out of anti Zionism. But as I always like to say, you know, when it comes down to it, the Hamas folks don't think you can opt out of it. They're. They're. They're just gonna. They're gonna look.

[B]

Yeah, put your head and talk closer to the mic. Let's introduce you. But I don't want to. Finish your thought. Finish your thought.

[E]

No, I mean, I wrote a piece for the Jerusalem Post about this. I compared it because, you know, I'm also half African American. So I compared it to, like, house slaves and field slaves in, in antebellum south, like during the. During the.

[B]

The.

[E]

The pre Civil War era, during the era of slavery, there was this idea that, you know, which had some credence, but that. That, you know, house slaves, because they toiled in the home, they often were lighter skinned because of miscegenation and rape, that they had an easier time than field slaves who were out in the fields, know, toiling and picking crops. And I wrote this piece for the Jerusalem Post. It was in response to one of these insane, you know, pro Hamas Jews who used. Who spoke at the Venice Film Festival and used her. I think Sarah Freeland was her name. And she used her. Her award speech to basically, you know, take down Israel. And I was like, these are like, you know, the house slaves of the Jewish. Of the Jewish community. But at the end of the day, you know, during slavery, you were a house slave or a field slave. You were still a slave, you know, and these Jews don't seem to understand whether they're a house Jew or a field Jew or court Jew or whatever. Like they're still Jews. And you know, when Hamas comes and you know is about to kill you, they're going to say, you know, we thank you for your service, but they're still going to kill you. If during the Holocaust you didn't there weren't exception there weren't, you know, gas chamber exceptions for like the Jews that the Nazis like they allegedly.

[B]

Gas chamber.

[E]

Yeah, exactly. There was no like you couldn't buy your way out of extermination because you were like, you know, the right kind of Jew. Like the folks who don't like us don't see any difference between any of us. We are all the same to them.

[A]

Yes, that was David Kaufman. He joins us, editor and columnist at the New York Post and a regular writer for the Telegraph, the Spectator, Airmail and the Forward and an adjunct fellow at the Tel Aviv Institute. Welcome, David.